As he opened with the Rwandan genocide, I had a little hope. He moved on to new shoes vs not, new bike etc and ended by sending a passive aggressive message that accusing elders of crimes might not be what Jesus wants. How much money has his church given to help the people of Rwanda? Preaching does not rebuild homes or fill empty stomachs. Words, without deeds, are dead.
The church does gives millions and millions to help. Did you give money to the Rwandan people to help build homes and fill empty stomachs? If not, then don't use an example you yourself don't follow. I agree, bad example to use such an extreme situation and in the same talk as a new bike. Geez, give the elderly a break. He gave examples he thought might help the world and help individuals when life isn't fair. Wouldn't it be a better use of time to criticize sometime trying to do evil instead of not giving a talk that you don't like the wording.
Since leaving the LDS church, I am far more inclined to be a stone catcher, than than a stone thrower. As a Mormon I was under the influence of the church when it came to, for example, dress code, morality, speaking up against a particular subject in Sunday School class, homosexuality etc. I accepted the churches viewpoint on everything and took my viewpoint from the leaders...whatever they said was 'Gospel'. Now that I think for my self, I am more open to the feelings and thoughts of others. I no longer stop and think, ' What would the bishop say about this...or the prophet, or sister so and so?'..I now simply accept everyone as an individual and see their worth for what they are. I have enjoyed the conversations I have had with new friends and never question their beliefs, dress style, sexual preferences, if they are atheists, believers, or whatever faith they follow. I am finding that people are mostly wonderful human beings and and you don't have to be Mormon to be one.
Isn't it like finding a whole new world right where you are? Yeah, we recently left the church as well and it's amazing how it makes us feel to literally think for ourselves without having to worry about the guilt and shame of not being perfectly in line with whatever your leadership roulette is harping on at the moment. You look at people so differently and realize they never were "lost" just because they didn't have "the truth". It's really such an arrogant church and viewpoint.
@@cypsrp7924 Absolutely. I say things now that surprise my non LDS friends, who say 'But you used to think this about that' and I reply..''Ah...that's when I was in Mormon mode''
The "why wait for Jesus/church leaders when I can just solve the problems on my own?" was one of the main cracks in my shelf that finally got me to seriously consider leaving.
If his heart aches for people suffering and he has BILLIONS of dollars stored away, he can DO SOMETHING for those who suffer instead of wringing his hands and crying “Woe, woe.”
The problem of evil is an issue in Mormonism since God rewards and punishes people while they live. It’s a prosperity gospel if your happy and well off it’s because your worthy
Thanks, Nemo. Although I'm now retired and living in Oregon, Dale Renlund was actually a former patient of mine in Sandy, Utah. He knew I was raised LDS and actually served a mission, but as a result of decades studying the history of Christianity and Mormonism in particular, had become (in the 90s) an atheist. Knowing this, Dr. Renlund continued securing my services as an eye doctor insisting that he enjoyed our "substantive discussion." He claimed to be aware of discrepancies within LDS history and doctrinal claims, but as an applied scientist himself (physician), it was necessary for to compartmentalize what he believed from what he learned about the scientific method. (Just as general relativity and quantum mechanics are incompatible, I suppose.) A kind man, for certain, but in my judgment, intellectually dishonest, all the same. Once he became a member of the Q of 12, I sent him a copy of an essay I wrote at the invitation of a founding member of MormonThink entitled "Sword-Wielding Angels & Stolen Innocence." I received from Elder Renlund no response. Those interested in the evidence that Smith was a sexual predator are welcome to read the essay and draw their own conclusions. www.mormonthink.com/files/Angels%20with%20Swords.pdf
I myself could not sell or advocate for a religion I don’t believe in, intellectual dishonesty and continuing to promote aI believe system that you know is wrong is right up there with fraud. I was raised in the church and was happy with it till I found out that the whole thing was one big lie, it took 9 years to leave after that. I knew that I could no longer listening to the lies and mythology. I have also wondered how if a GA knew that the organization was one big shit show, how he could continue in his calling.
The best part of the talk was encouraging people to be stone catchers - to ease suffering when they can - solid message. And the more church leaders do that the better - like by allowing members to tithe to the poor instead of an ultra-wealthy church. The worst part was near the end when he flipped the responsibility completely back on the person who might be so bold as to ask the question that this talk completely fails at addressing. The basic message seemed to be: If you're asking why God doesn't stop infuriating unfairness, it shows a problem on your part - now listen to me lecture on what you should be doing to make yourself acceptable.
Listening to this guy reminds me why it was such a relief to discover the church is all made up; I no longer had to listen to these boring-as-shit discourses. Thanks for your sacrifice, Nemo!
Me too. Also I realize how mindlessly I listened to these passive aggressive confusing nonsensical talks. I didn’t take a minute to analyze like Nemo does; just shrugged and ticked off the box that I listened to conference. I imagine if members were surveyed 98% wouldn’t even remember this guy spoke at all.
I have seen probably 15-20 videos from Nemo thus far and have a hard time understanding why he's still an active member of the church. It seems to me that he's far too logical to stay in it.
@@81bajaj his good friend, Peter Bleakely was just exxed, so maybe Nemo's next. My guess is that some church member is shielding him from a council. That's my guess anyway, but I doubt that can last. Good luck to him.
This is a modern day version of the endure to the end talk. Enduring to the end is dangerous rhetoric. You give no hope in life. Death is your only relief. For some who are struggling this is a very, very dangerous message.
Yep, I used to live to die because of the "oh just hope for the end" kind of talk in the church. With every little problem I would think "it's okay, it'll resolve when I die". To the point where I wouldn't help myself with things like physical health, diet, mental health, job opportunities etc. I became so apathetic towards life because I was just waiting to die. And the scariest thing was that I didn't even know that that was happening.
This talk made me SO uncomfortable. First he talks about Rwandan genocide, then he talks about a child not saving their money and how lack of diligence can lead to perceived unfairness. These two back to back seem to suggest that it is the victims’ fault that they were abused or killed.
18:15 - This testimony he gives next is a large part of why I left the church and religion as a whole. "Oh yes" - there's relief and peace and comfort through the atonement of Jesus Christ. He means ONLY through the atonement. Really? Well, that sucks for the rest of world religion and for atheists. They don't get that comfort or peace? What a great parent. I'm a mom. I get that there are times when you have to let your kids struggle and figure things out on their own. But if I see them truly in pain and needing help, I don't require them to show me increased faith and love before I help them. Hell, they don't even have to ask for it. Also, I know damn well there are people who have healed from trauma WITHOUT Jesus or even God. It's called therapy, and it's science-based.
Razor sharp insights. I appreciate that you focus more on the logical inconsistencies rather than just dunking on the whole thing in a derogatory manner.
Elder Renlund classifying trauma, depression, anxiety, the horrors of living in this world as unfairness is infuriating to me. Matching a mother’s decision to buy shoes with the blood and horror of the genocide in Africa is insulting and makes a mockery of the victims of that event that have to live with it every day. I’ve always had a hard time swallowing the statements that God loves us when we deal with life. Thanks Nemo
Mormons' attempt to tackle genuine philosophical issues is always lackluster at best. Renlund is obviously not a theologian and has no idea what he's talking about. "Just have faith" is not good enough an answer.
I have discussed this matter with holocaust survivors. Some renounce their Judaism and never return. Others say God was there in the camps, by virtue of the many miracles that spared people's lives. I remember a Rabi telling me more people should have died but didn't for a variety of reasons of divine intervention.
Renlund said “to try to see things with an eternal perspective can be clarifying.” An “eternal perspective“ as he calls it, can also I give people a sense that suffering is divine, is character building, and is ultimately reconciled - after actual death. Sadly, (I hope I sound like a general authority here), the church gets much of its authority and adherence by claiming to know all about the existence of an afterlife and telling us that we are better when we have faith in something with no evidence. I find teachings like this coming from men like him to be utterly disgusting! They’ve given up their critical thinking and use their intellect to reason away things with evidence while supporting things with no evidence. Setting up strawman arguments while being utterly oblivious to what they are even doing! These attitudes and teachings infect the minds of followers who end up robbed of much fulfillment in this actual life!
Easy for him to stand their and say that its not our timeframe to decide when God will deal with things fairly. Did he not listen to his own talk? If you're talking about unjustified unfairness, born into poverty or stricken with disease, why in the world would you as a leader of a church berate others and just tell them we have to be patient. So hypocritical that he's giving this talk in an overpriced suit, airconditioned building, with a full stomach from an organization that sits on piles of money. WHO shows that 10 million kids die each year from PREVENTABLE causes. How about instead of giving lip service to telling others how to be patient, we organize the members and money to put a dent into that WHO number.
Glad to see you did what Renlund didn't and that was to address the Elephant in the room or in this case the Elephant at the pulpit. And that is that Church members do need to be careful so as not to wrongfully judge other's yet simultaneously call them out for hurting hurting other's. Thank you Nemo!
Comparing the hacking to pieces of nearly one million people with a kid who wants new shoes is totally INSANE! How distanced from reality and how amazingly privileged must you be to consider such an idiotic comparison? The comparison would be more apt if the parents hacked off the limbs of the son in the story and then expected him to do as well as the girl who guys the bike.
bear with me here... I'm going to try to explain what my former true believing self would say regarding Dale's attempt at making this crazy world make sense. (cough cough cough... clearing my throat) If this life is truly the 2nd act of the three part play then it would stand to reason that whatever happens here is of little importance. It doesn't matter if one is born into a life of wealth and good health or if one is dumped into a slum and suffers their whole life. It all washes out in the end. The ONLY thing that matters is our ATTITUDE. We bear our burdens with hope and faith and knowing that this is only but a moment in the eternal sense. If we are treated unfairly, we shrug it off because we know our reward is waiting for us. We are able to basically look the other way when great atrocities occur because they matter not for what truly is important awaits us beyond the vale. God did intervene, not in the immediate sense, but because of Christ's atonement these unfair acts are reconciled in the third act. I can kind of see where Mr. G Renlund is going and what he was attempting to accomplish but unfortunately for him all the great conference talks have already been given and he's stuck with trying to come up with something new in a world that going to be infuriatingly unfair to him. The only good thing to come from this is the increased cognitive dissonance he's creating with his dwindling congregants.
Listening to conference, brings to mind this scripture: "...O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God... their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish." Ultra-wealthy, corporate elites are rarely a good place for down-to-earth, spiritual advice. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Those fools.
Here's another one: D&C 56:16 - "Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!"
Yeah, church leaders are only in their positions because they are wealthy and *powerful" from a worldly standpoint. You HAVE to be uber arrogant and drinking your own kool-aid to sound like Holland and some of the others!
"Some choose not to alleviate unfairness when they could. Distressingly, some individuals use their God given agency to hurt others when they never should." Hmmmm sounds like a religious organization I know.
Thanks for all your videos. I am loving learning how to identify things like a straw man argument within Mormonism. I just watched your Mormon Stories interview and think it would be cool if you got some of your roommates that you debated with to talk about the conversations that started to poke hole in your belief and think critically.
If Mormon leaders truly spoke for God they would have the answers to the questions presented. Since they don't, they have to take their best guess and that is what we heard. The answer is WE DON'T KNOW WHY.
It’s always so cute trying to hear religious people try justify why god lets life be so genuinely awful for so many people. They should’ve paid their tithing too!
I recommend LDS philosopher Blake Ostler's consideration of the problem of evil in his critique of B. H. Roberts' theodicy. "B.H.Roberts Theodicy" on YT channel of Clark Goble.
Gossip is an interesting topic unto itself when you understand the evolutionary purpose behind it. In a species such as humans our biggest achievement is our ability to cooperate on the scale we have. Cooperations brings into play everyone doing their part and achieving fairness. So gossip is a mechanism to alert one another of those who aren’t playing the game fairly. So while gossip is typically interpreted as something negative it does have a very useful purpose in a fair society. The other interesting point is one of individuals using their free will to treat others unfairly. If you don’t believe free will exists, that we are highly sophisticated and complex machines then unfair treatment could just be a malfunction in the hardware or the software. The idea of justice in this context is actually counterintuitive because those individuals deserve no punishment. They deserve the appropriate fix to their cognitive processes so they can carry on as a participant in the fair society.
So, he draws an analogy between a real genocide and a war in the fiction book between fiction peoples? What's next, describing Holocaust, using Hobbits and Orcs as examples?
Faith or works, can't be both that grants us eternal life but never mind that. You will go, you will do the things The Lord commands. We know know the lord provides a way, He wants us to obey But it wasn't really The Lord but man that we've been trying to follow as LDS members.
We need 1830’s Missouri Mormonism. Those meetings were lit. Clapping hands, hallelujah’s, talking in tongues, throwing themselves on the floor and acting like a serpent. Does he actually believe what he is talking about? No passion. Conference talks are so boring. It is more enjoyable now that I am pimo though.
Most executives, when first elevated or hired to these roles (especially those public-facing roles where they're constantly speaking publicly) will undergo deep and intense media training which can go on for days and will often have recurring refresher sessions as well. If you're high profile enough, it's just too important to not engage in this kind of training. As for the conference talks and style, it's probably partly media training and partly cultural...aka...this is what a general authority is supposed to sound like.
@@DancingQueenie snark is fine. My family and I just left the church a few months ago and I'm just really intense about a lot of this stuff right now, so I was just oblivious, lol.
Perceived unfairness is at the core of our desire for justice. The need for justice is not a universal law as the church would say but a personal desire for the undoing of unfairness. Someone else's suffering does nothing to undo the unfairness I or anyone else is exposed to. A get out of gaol free card offered to the "repentant" by Jesus also does nothing but aggravate the unfairness because it ignores the suffering caused to the victim. The only thing that can ease the despair of unfairness is to personally let it go and come to the realisation that it is what it is and move on. Jesus' atonement is not needed for this. It is a personal decision and therapy applied by the victim alone. When all is boiled down, talk of the atonement conquering all unfairness is just fanciful wishful thinking with no substance.
I find it kind of odd and out of place to name a legal practice in conference rather than leaving it un named. Kind of promoting of a defense attorney firm. Even if the defendant mentioned was truly innocent, calling the practice in general benevolent is far reaching. I was a cop for 14 years. For every one innocent person defended, hundreds of guilty persons walked freely only to victimize others due to the tactics of the defense attorneys. The talk could have accomplished the same by isolating the case rather that labeling the attorney's practice as being some kind of long living righteous endeavor. I mean let's face it, even Christ called lawyers out.
This talk felt like insult to injury and salt on my wounds as my wife had recently come out as transgender and the church had no advice and now resources for spouses in that situation. My bishop and my father who is a bishop just weakly offered, "well, I guess technically YOU aren't sinning..." How is that fair? And then to be told I'm just immature for wrestling with such problems because "christ didn't forget about you" is disgusting. If they are going to preach that christ didn't forget about those who are in unfair situations but decided not to intervene is much worse in my opinion. I feel so much better since leaving as I was finally allowed to grieve and figure out next steps as well as deconstruct my forced heteronormativity since I was always a member of the LGBTQIA+ community. This talk is infuriating. 😅🏳️🌈
17:12 _"Jesus Christ has done something about infuriating unfairness."_ You know, it kind of reminds me of that poem, The Ambulance Down in the Valley. Members are taught to take preventative measures against situations which could lead to sin. They are taught to "put a fence around the cliff" so to speak. And yet they are expected to simply be content with god's act to satisfy justice which is equivalent to putting an ambulance down in the valley. God's great double standard of morality.
Wait... Did he say that living with imperfect bodies is unfair? According to the prophets of "not so old" handicapped bodies, as well as dark skin are a sign and a consequence of not being diligent in the War in Heaven. Following this logic, everything is fair.
Nemo- Any thoughts on the cancellation of priesthood/women's Saturday night sessions for future General Conferences. Just announced today by the Church.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Plus the fact that before 2018, the priesthood could have a bromance night. When the Saturday night session was for men only each general conference, we would have a potluck at church. The priesthood would show off their cooking skills. One guy made his own hot sauce and wings, others brought salads, desserts, pizza, lasagna, soup, stews, baked potatoes, etc. That is a loss members are talking about with this latest decision. I presume the women will lose any exclusivity in the conference sessions. At one time, they had a two day conference one week before general conference.
Enjoy your videos... My question.....I know you're still a member of the Lds church, unless its changed....just wondering how you interpret the church now with all your videos? I'm going through my own faith crisis now, since I found out some of those things now on the internet. There's things I really love about the church, but I'm just not sure about the other things, beliefs etc. I guess I'm just asking, if you decided to stay in the church despite the videos...how you decided... there's no right answer just thinking my have some insight...thanks!
Douglas! You must have been in Coventry Stake when I was there. I was in Warwick Branch, my brother was on the Stake Presidency. Calisto isn’t my real name, needless to say.
I can't stand Renlund. I know they are all condescending, but comparing genocide to allowance is beyond the pale. Hairs on the back of my neck are standing on end.
I have to weigh in, here! To start with, Renlund is a Swede (i.e., of Swedish descent). This is important to know, because his people, over in Sweden, were "neutral" during World War 2. (Sweden declared its neutrality, and Hitler basically "left them alone", as a result.) So, if life is horrific and unfair (as during the Nazi aggression), just pull your head into your tortoise shell, to avoid having to deal with it directly. Sorry, guys: I always thought of Swedes, overall, as pusillanimous (and Renlund is no exception). As a "caveat", though, I knew a Utah Swede, once, who had real determination...
Nice message from a leader who belongs to a church that has a long history of injustice, lying, and false testimony, etc...past and present. His message is not unique and is a little underwhelming. He comes from a world of privilege mostly unearned and mostly by circumstance, chance. These churches are rotten and suspect he, personally, does very little, in the form of action, to make changes. And he finishes with a non-scriptural concept of being with one's family and the whole Lamanite/Nephite mythology...ugh. These old, false leaders are not discerning. A lot of great things are coming your way...but only after you are dead and have accepted the Mormon god. In the meantime, just take it and believe that the Mormon god exists though he has never shown to exist.
There is no answer as to why God intervenes sometimes and not at others. It is basic to the Christian Gospel that all unjust suffering will be compensated for in the life to come. The sufferings of the present will be compensated for by a glory that far exceeds them, and God will wipe away every tear. There will be no more sorrow or pain. However clumsily the speaker may have been in his presentation, I think that he did have in mind the Scriptural promises and the resurrection for all through the Saviour's atonement.
@@ahashdahnagila6884 What sacred scripture do you take your quote from about the "ant farm under glass", and your conception of God being "there to observe the goings on of mankind"? It is not the Christian Scriptures, nor, I would suppose, any LDS scripture. While the Holy Bible does say that God is continually observing our goings on, it also speaks of Him interacting with mankind, bringing about blessings and judgments. It also shows Him allowing innocents to suffer, and rewarding them with marvelous and unimaginable consolations and blessings for eternity. The Christian faith looks beyond this present life of temporary trials and probation. That is the hope provided by Jesus Christ's obedient earthly life and His atonement and resurrection..
He used rhyming like he was turning the topic of serious levels of unfairness into a poem, but the rhythm of it was off so it wasn't a poem. It felt out of place to me. It felt like he was trying to be clever and cutesy, but this talk wasn't the time or place for it. He said, "Some individuals make injurious mistakes even when they are trying to do good. Some choose not to alleviate unfairness when they could. Distressingly, some individuals use their God-given agency to hurt others when they never should."
God either causes bad things to happen, doesn’t care that bad things happen or can’t stop bad things from happening. So I argue I’m better than god as I would help if I could but since I don’t believe in god it doesn’t really matter.
Oh Nemo I tried to stomach his melotanous sounding voice. Is that supposed to have him seem more sincere? I just could not finish listening to him. No wonder people turn to others teachers offering much more comforting wisdom.
To all of you in the comments saying you’ve left the church, have you really? Do you ever will leave the church? Wishful thinking. You will be in tangled with the church for as long as you live, as you will never leave it alone. Nemo is a cunning man, as he is just taking little pieces of information from here and there to accomplish his evil plan.
The flimsey LDS view of God's judgement aka hell, does not help this situation. The broader Christian worldview allows divine judgement to be acknowledged within circumstances of injustice. Those who enact genocide do not "get away" with it in light of a holy, just God.
It says in D&C that God can't do anything unless we have faith. So we need to ask in faith for God to intervene, otherwise He can't. However, I doubt that none of the half a million Rwandans, or any others who were aware of what was happening, asked for God's help. So we're still left without a good answer as to why He didn't prevent their genocide.
Never a Mormon, but went to Utah State for my Junior year: How can y’all it through these conference talks where everyone talks in a unmodulated monotones. Zzzzzzzzz
This talk feels like such a dog whistle when you consider the history of doctrines saying that PoC were less valiant in the past life. “You were less valiant. You deserve inequality. It’s not unfair at all.” Gross gross gross.
Listening to the original talk by Elder Renlund is uplifting. It makes perfect sense. What seems strange is to listen to you try to tear it down. Why are you still a member of this incredible Christian faith NEMO? Which parts of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ do you still believe in, my friend?
I must object here. This may sound egotistical, but I haven't seen one cent from Bill and Melinda, while the $2B the church gives includes my rent and food every month. Let's remember that they could give $0 if they so desired. Why can't we be thankful for both? Overall I agree with everything in this talk, even if I don't share the same testimony and believe in doing good for others for it's own sake, not for promises of rewards or fear of punishment. But I'm thankful when someone helps me regardless of the reasoning behind it.
Well, since you believe God is unfair, it seems to me that your goal is to make this accusation at some point with the expectation that God will be indicted and convicted of his alleged unfairness. Since God created everything, your accusation seems to be that He should be punished for all unfairness. So now it seems to me that we can see why Jesus Christ was crucified. As Jehovah, he created the earth and everything on it. So if the earth had not been created, then the unfairness that took place on earth would not have happened. What it seems to me you are missing is the fact that God told his creations how to be fair. It was their decisions, not His, that caused the unfairness. If they had done what he asked them to do, everything would have been fine. So what is your plan? Obviously, you feel better qualified to tell people what they should do than you believe Dale G. Renlund is. Do you think God is going to see your qualifications and replace Dale G. Renlund with you, or are you planning to start your own thing and contend against unfairness from some other basis than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, such as, concerned Christians and their vast network of accusations against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I think you will choose to be a tare among the wheat and walk a fine line attempting to criticize from within the church. In most ways, the concerned Christians outside of the church seem more honest than you are, and I do not see them as honest people.
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As he opened with the Rwandan genocide, I had a little hope. He moved on to new shoes vs not, new bike etc and ended by sending a passive aggressive message that accusing elders of crimes might not be what Jesus wants. How much money has his church given to help the people of Rwanda? Preaching does not rebuild homes or fill empty stomachs. Words, without deeds, are dead.
Great points, thank you!
The church does gives millions and millions to help. Did you give money to the Rwandan people to help build homes and fill empty stomachs? If not, then don't use an example you yourself don't follow. I agree, bad example to use such an extreme situation and in the same talk as a new bike. Geez, give the elderly a break. He gave examples he thought might help the world and help individuals when life isn't fair. Wouldn't it be a better use of time to criticize sometime trying to do evil instead of not giving a talk that you don't like the wording.
@@tawneenielsen4080 i dunno man, i consider wholesale gaslighting of the congregation pretty evil
@@ClassicDepravities I don't see any gaslighting going on.
@@tawneenielsen4080 eeeeexactly
Since leaving the LDS church, I am far more inclined to be a stone catcher, than than a stone thrower. As a Mormon I was under the influence of the church when it came to, for example, dress code, morality, speaking up against a particular subject in Sunday School class, homosexuality etc. I accepted the churches viewpoint on everything and took my viewpoint from the leaders...whatever they said was 'Gospel'. Now that I think for my self, I am more open to the feelings and thoughts of others. I no longer stop and think, ' What would the bishop say about this...or the prophet, or sister so and so?'..I now simply accept everyone as an individual and see their worth for what they are. I have enjoyed the conversations I have had with new friends and never question their beliefs, dress style, sexual preferences, if they are atheists, believers, or whatever faith they follow. I am finding that people are mostly wonderful human beings and and you don't have to be Mormon to be one.
Isn't it like finding a whole new world right where you are? Yeah, we recently left the church as well and it's amazing how it makes us feel to literally think for ourselves without having to worry about the guilt and shame of not being perfectly in line with whatever your leadership roulette is harping on at the moment. You look at people so differently and realize they never were "lost" just because they didn't have "the truth". It's really such an arrogant church and viewpoint.
@@cypsrp7924 Absolutely. I say things now that surprise my non LDS friends, who say 'But you used to think this about that' and I reply..''Ah...that's when I was in Mormon mode''
The "why wait for Jesus/church leaders when I can just solve the problems on my own?" was one of the main cracks in my shelf that finally got me to seriously consider leaving.
Just curious, if you left?
If his heart aches for people suffering and he has BILLIONS of dollars stored away, he can DO SOMETHING for those who suffer instead of wringing his hands and crying “Woe, woe.”
This is one of your finest videos! Your maturity in addressing/questioning Renland's claims are quite refreshing! Keep it up Nemo!
Much appreciated!
The problem of evil is an issue in Mormonism since God rewards and punishes people while they live. It’s a prosperity gospel if your happy and well off it’s because your worthy
Great point!
Thanks, Nemo.
Although I'm now retired and living in Oregon, Dale Renlund was actually a former patient of mine in Sandy, Utah. He knew I was raised LDS and actually served a mission, but as a result of decades studying the history of Christianity and Mormonism in particular, had become (in the 90s) an atheist. Knowing this, Dr. Renlund continued securing my services as an eye doctor insisting that he enjoyed our "substantive discussion." He claimed to be aware of discrepancies within LDS history and doctrinal claims, but as an applied scientist himself (physician), it was necessary for to compartmentalize what he believed from what he learned about the scientific method. (Just as general relativity and quantum mechanics are incompatible, I suppose.) A kind man, for certain, but in my judgment, intellectually dishonest, all the same. Once he became a member of the Q of 12, I sent him a copy of an essay I wrote at the invitation of a founding member of MormonThink entitled "Sword-Wielding Angels & Stolen Innocence." I received from Elder Renlund no response. Those interested in the evidence that Smith was a sexual predator are welcome to read the essay and draw their own conclusions.
www.mormonthink.com/files/Angels%20with%20Swords.pdf
I myself could not sell or advocate for a religion I don’t believe in, intellectual dishonesty and continuing to promote aI believe system that you know is wrong is right up there with fraud. I was raised in the church and was happy with it till I found out that the whole thing was one big lie, it took 9 years to leave after that. I knew that I could no longer listening to the lies and mythology. I have also wondered how if a GA knew that the organization was one big shit show, how he could continue in his calling.
Renlund sounds like a bundle of joy. He’s putting himself to sleep in his own talk
Imagine a 17 year old kid who is addicted to TikTok trying to pay attention to this man
Hysterically laughing at this hilarious remark!!!!!!!!!!
OH AYE, HE HAS JUST READ THE BOOK OF ETHER BEFORE CONFERENCE.
A little off topic...I really enjoyed your interview with Bill Reel and RFM! Keep punching up NEMO! ❤
Thank you! Will do!
It needs to be a regular thing . Like a breakfast radio trio . Bill, Doug & RFM
@@kenny-gee 💯👍
The best part of the talk was encouraging people to be stone catchers - to ease suffering when they can - solid message. And the more church leaders do that the better - like by allowing members to tithe to the poor instead of an ultra-wealthy church.
The worst part was near the end when he flipped the responsibility completely back on the person who might be so bold as to ask the question that this talk completely fails at addressing. The basic message seemed to be: If you're asking why God doesn't stop infuriating unfairness, it shows a problem on your part - now listen to me lecture on what you should be doing to make yourself acceptable.
Listening to this guy reminds me why it was such a relief to discover the church is all made up; I no longer had to listen to these boring-as-shit discourses. Thanks for your sacrifice, Nemo!
Me too. Also I realize how mindlessly I listened to these passive aggressive confusing nonsensical talks. I didn’t take a minute to analyze like Nemo does; just shrugged and ticked off the box that I listened to conference. I imagine if members were surveyed 98% wouldn’t even remember this guy spoke at all.
I have seen probably 15-20 videos from Nemo thus far and have a hard time understanding why he's still an active member of the church. It seems to me that he's far too logical to stay in it.
@@cypsrp7924 Oh wow! I just assumed that he had left. Is he still active? I can't understand it.
@@81bajaj his good friend, Peter Bleakely was just exxed, so maybe Nemo's next. My guess is that some church member is shielding him from a council. That's my guess anyway, but I doubt that can last. Good luck to him.
@@cypsrp7924 Yes, thanks. His videos are really good. He's a good soul.
This is a modern day version of the endure to the end talk. Enduring to the end is dangerous rhetoric. You give no hope in life. Death is your only relief. For some who are struggling this is a very, very dangerous message.
I hadn't considered that, thank you!
Yep, I used to live to die because of the "oh just hope for the end" kind of talk in the church. With every little problem I would think "it's okay, it'll resolve when I die". To the point where I wouldn't help myself with things like physical health, diet, mental health, job opportunities etc. I became so apathetic towards life because I was just waiting to die. And the scariest thing was that I didn't even know that that was happening.
And to top that off, you have the phrase "better dead clean, than alive unclean" from Heber J Grant and repeated by Marion G Romney.
Oh geez, I didn’t think about that. You’re absolutely right.
Such a philosophy could actually encourage suicide.
This talk made me SO uncomfortable. First he talks about Rwandan genocide, then he talks about a child not saving their money and how lack of diligence can lead to perceived unfairness. These two back to back seem to suggest that it is the victims’ fault that they were abused or killed.
18:15 - This testimony he gives next is a large part of why I left the church and religion as a whole. "Oh yes" - there's relief and peace and comfort through the atonement of Jesus Christ. He means ONLY through the atonement. Really? Well, that sucks for the rest of world religion and for atheists. They don't get that comfort or peace? What a great parent. I'm a mom. I get that there are times when you have to let your kids struggle and figure things out on their own. But if I see them truly in pain and needing help, I don't require them to show me increased faith and love before I help them. Hell, they don't even have to ask for it. Also, I know damn well there are people who have healed from trauma WITHOUT Jesus or even God. It's called therapy, and it's science-based.
His message, not pointless, was made so with his inclusion of the massacre. Nemo was correct. That wasnt unfair, thT WAS JUST PURE EVIL.
Thank you for addressing this talk!
You are so welcome!
Razor sharp insights. I appreciate that you focus more on the logical inconsistencies rather than just dunking on the whole thing in a derogatory manner.
thank you, that means a lot!
For me, this is perhaps your best yet of many very good commentaries. Keep up the great work! Thanks.
Thanks, will do!
Elder Renlund classifying trauma, depression, anxiety, the horrors of living in this world as unfairness is infuriating to me. Matching a mother’s decision to buy shoes with the blood and horror of the genocide in Africa is insulting and makes a mockery of the victims of that event that have to live with it every day. I’ve always had a hard time swallowing the statements that God loves us when we deal with life.
Thanks Nemo
Mormons' attempt to tackle genuine philosophical issues is always lackluster at best. Renlund is obviously not a theologian and has no idea what he's talking about. "Just have faith" is not good enough an answer.
Not when so many others have done so much more outside of mormonism to tackle this issue!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON If only there was some non-profit organization with ~$100,000,000,000 lying around... Imagine how much good they could do!
The examples he gave after he mentioned an horrible genocide was unfortunaly facelpam worth it
I have discussed this matter with holocaust survivors. Some renounce their Judaism and never return. Others say God was there in the camps, by virtue of the many miracles that spared people's lives. I remember a Rabi telling me more people should have died but didn't for a variety of reasons of divine intervention.
Fascinating, thank you for sharing!
Renlund said “to try to see things with an eternal perspective can be clarifying.” An “eternal perspective“ as he calls it, can also I give people a sense that suffering is divine, is character building, and is ultimately reconciled - after actual death. Sadly, (I hope I sound like a general authority here), the church gets much of its authority and adherence by claiming to know all about the existence of an afterlife and telling us that we are better when we have faith in something with no evidence. I find teachings like this coming from men like him to be utterly disgusting! They’ve given up their critical thinking and use their intellect to reason away things with evidence while supporting things with no evidence. Setting up strawman arguments while being utterly oblivious to what they are even doing! These attitudes and teachings infect the minds of followers who end up robbed of much fulfillment in this actual life!
I wish the church would take the advice in this talk.
The use of Alma's example is such a guilt trip. "Oh, Alma could do it so you should be able to as well". These examples used to really get to me.
Easy for him to stand their and say that its not our timeframe to decide when God will deal with things fairly. Did he not listen to his own talk? If you're talking about unjustified unfairness, born into poverty or stricken with disease, why in the world would you as a leader of a church berate others and just tell them we have to be patient. So hypocritical that he's giving this talk in an overpriced suit, airconditioned building, with a full stomach from an organization that sits on piles of money. WHO shows that 10 million kids die each year from PREVENTABLE causes. How about instead of giving lip service to telling others how to be patient, we organize the members and money to put a dent into that WHO number.
Glad to see you did what Renlund didn't and that was to address the Elephant in the room or in this case the Elephant at the pulpit. And that is that Church members do need to be careful so as not to wrongfully judge other's yet simultaneously call them out for hurting hurting other's. Thank you Nemo!
My pleasure!
Comparing the hacking to pieces of nearly one million people with a kid who wants new shoes is totally INSANE! How distanced from reality and how amazingly privileged must you be to consider such an idiotic comparison? The comparison would be more apt if the parents hacked off the limbs of the son in the story and then expected him to do as well as the girl who guys the bike.
bear with me here... I'm going to try to explain what my former true believing self would say regarding Dale's attempt at making this crazy world make sense. (cough cough cough... clearing my throat)
If this life is truly the 2nd act of the three part play then it would stand to reason that whatever happens here is of little importance. It doesn't matter if one is born into a life of wealth and good health or if one is dumped into a slum and suffers their whole life. It all washes out in the end. The ONLY thing that matters is our ATTITUDE. We bear our burdens with hope and faith and knowing that this is only but a moment in the eternal sense. If we are treated unfairly, we shrug it off because we know our reward is waiting for us. We are able to basically look the other way when great atrocities occur because they matter not for what truly is important awaits us beyond the vale. God did intervene, not in the immediate sense, but because of Christ's atonement these unfair acts are reconciled in the third act.
I can kind of see where Mr. G Renlund is going and what he was attempting to accomplish but unfortunately for him all the great conference talks have already been given and he's stuck with trying to come up with something new in a world that going to be infuriatingly unfair to him. The only good thing to come from this is the increased cognitive dissonance he's creating with his dwindling congregants.
Listening to conference, brings to mind this scripture:
"...O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God... their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish."
Ultra-wealthy, corporate elites are rarely a good place for down-to-earth, spiritual advice. "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Those fools.
Here's another one: D&C 56:16 - "Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!"
Yeah, church leaders are only in their positions because they are wealthy and *powerful" from a worldly standpoint. You HAVE to be uber arrogant and drinking your own kool-aid to sound like Holland and some of the others!
Yes. This comment.
This was the only talk I watched in GC and it disgusted me.
"Some choose not to alleviate unfairness when they could. Distressingly, some individuals use their God given agency to hurt others when they never should." Hmmmm sounds like a religious organization I know.
Exactly, pot kettle black much!
Love this, great chat.
Cheers bud!
Thanks for all your videos. I am loving learning how to identify things like a straw man argument within Mormonism. I just watched your Mormon Stories interview and think it would be cool if you got some of your roommates that you debated with to talk about the conversations that started to poke hole in your belief and think critically.
100 Billion in the bank, only 2 Billion in aid??? WTF, eyes still bleeding.
That's about the size of it!
If Mormon leaders truly spoke for God they would have the answers to the questions presented. Since they don't, they have to take their best guess and that is what we heard. The answer is WE DON'T KNOW WHY.
So, Jesus didn't condemn the woman. Why the heck then Mormon leaders do?
How disgusting to compare genocide to trivial family misunderstandings.
It’s always so cute trying to hear religious people try justify why god lets life be so genuinely awful for so many people. They should’ve paid their tithing too!
I recommend LDS philosopher Blake Ostler's consideration of the problem of evil in his critique of B. H. Roberts' theodicy. "B.H.Roberts Theodicy" on YT channel of Clark Goble.
It was a CRIME. UNFAIR? WOW Renlund is trying to sound like Bednar. Good heavens!
I know, absolutely shocking!
Gossip is an interesting topic unto itself when you understand the evolutionary purpose behind it. In a species such as humans our biggest achievement is our ability to cooperate on the scale we have. Cooperations brings into play everyone doing their part and achieving fairness. So gossip is a mechanism to alert one another of those who aren’t playing the game fairly. So while gossip is typically interpreted as something negative it does have a very useful purpose in a fair society.
The other interesting point is one of individuals using their free will to treat others unfairly. If you don’t believe free will exists, that we are highly sophisticated and complex machines then unfair treatment could just be a malfunction in the hardware or the software. The idea of justice in this context is actually counterintuitive because those individuals deserve no punishment. They deserve the appropriate fix to their cognitive processes so they can carry on as a participant in the fair society.
So, he draws an analogy between a real genocide and a war in the fiction book between fiction peoples? What's next, describing Holocaust, using Hobbits and Orcs as examples?
Faith or works, can't be both that grants us eternal life but never mind that.
You will go, you will do the things The Lord commands. We know know the lord provides a way, He wants us to obey
But it wasn't really The Lord but man that we've been trying to follow as LDS members.
We need 1830’s Missouri Mormonism. Those meetings were lit. Clapping hands, hallelujah’s, talking in tongues, throwing themselves on the floor and acting like a serpent. Does he actually believe what he is talking about? No passion. Conference talks are so boring. It is more enjoyable now that I am pimo though.
Yes! That would be far more entertaining!
Seriously, this makes my eyes bleed! So self righteous and so out of touch. Mormonland : The Guiltiest Place on Earth :)
Is this talk for Rwandan Genocide Survivors or kids that feel they've been stiffed on their allowance? I'm confused.
Hahahaha, both apparently...
Every video Nemo makes, his beard grows an inch
I wish hahaha!
This guy is making six figures a year and can’t buy a suit that fits correctly?
I noticed this, particularly around the neck it's not sitting well, but he looks like he's lost a lot of weight, so maybe he's been ill?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON I know someone who got their college degree just so they could be his assistant, it is beyond bazaar
The offending father is throwing stones. To protect the children you catch his evil acts and prevent them from hurt the children
Is there a media coach who trains them to talk like that? zzzzzzzz
Most executives, when first elevated or hired to these roles (especially those public-facing roles where they're constantly speaking publicly) will undergo deep and intense media training which can go on for days and will often have recurring refresher sessions as well. If you're high profile enough, it's just too important to not engage in this kind of training.
As for the conference talks and style, it's probably partly media training and partly cultural...aka...this is what a general authority is supposed to sound like.
@@cypsrp7924
thank you! I was waiting for somebody to mansplain to me the very complicated concept of media training. 🙄
@@DancingQueenie I have professional experience in the field, thought I was being helpful. Didn't notice your sarcasm, apologies.
@@cypsrp7924 sorry I was snarky.
@@DancingQueenie snark is fine. My family and I just left the church a few months ago and I'm just really intense about a lot of this stuff right now, so I was just oblivious, lol.
Perceived unfairness is at the core of our desire for justice. The need for justice is not a universal law as the church would say but a personal desire for the undoing of unfairness. Someone else's suffering does nothing to undo the unfairness I or anyone else is exposed to. A get out of gaol free card offered to the "repentant" by Jesus also does nothing but aggravate the unfairness because it ignores the suffering caused to the victim. The only thing that can ease the despair of unfairness is to personally let it go and come to the realisation that it is what it is and move on. Jesus' atonement is not needed for this. It is a personal decision and therapy applied by the victim alone. When all is boiled down, talk of the atonement conquering all unfairness is just fanciful wishful thinking with no substance.
Great insight, thank you!
Is renlund a robot? Has he ever smiled, laughed? Changed the tone of his voice? Super monotone dude.
I find it kind of odd and out of place to name a legal practice in conference rather than leaving it un named. Kind of promoting of a defense attorney firm. Even if the defendant mentioned was truly innocent, calling the practice in general benevolent is far reaching. I was a cop for 14 years. For every one innocent person defended, hundreds of guilty persons walked freely only to victimize others due to the tactics of the defense attorneys. The talk could have accomplished the same by isolating the case rather that labeling the attorney's practice as being some kind of long living righteous endeavor. I mean let's face it, even Christ called lawyers out.
Wow how they change their stories.
Do they have Renlund surrounded with pillows so he doesn't hurt himself when he passes out from his own dull inane droning.
Algorithm bumperino!
Thank you kindly!
This talk felt like insult to injury and salt on my wounds as my wife had recently come out as transgender and the church had no advice and now resources for spouses in that situation. My bishop and my father who is a bishop just weakly offered, "well, I guess technically YOU aren't sinning..." How is that fair? And then to be told I'm just immature for wrestling with such problems because "christ didn't forget about you" is disgusting. If they are going to preach that christ didn't forget about those who are in unfair situations but decided not to intervene is much worse in my opinion. I feel so much better since leaving as I was finally allowed to grieve and figure out next steps as well as deconstruct my forced heteronormativity since I was always a member of the LGBTQIA+ community. This talk is infuriating. 😅🏳️🌈
NeverMo here
How do LDS stay awake for these talks? Year after year?!
I had my best naps listening to General Conference.
They ponder with their eyes closed.
17:12 _"Jesus Christ has done something about infuriating unfairness."_
You know, it kind of reminds me of that poem, The Ambulance Down in the Valley. Members are taught to take preventative measures against situations which could lead to sin. They are taught to "put a fence around the cliff" so to speak. And yet they are expected to simply be content with god's act to satisfy justice which is equivalent to putting an ambulance down in the valley.
God's great double standard of morality.
I keep wondering if the Mormon leaders are not Men in Black.
Yeah, wouldn't they just love to click a magic button and erase our memories of ever listening to these kinds of talks 😂
Good thing the genocide happened after 1978! Otherwise, that poor man would have no chance to do the temple work for his family!
Whoa, yeah, great point!
Wait... Did he say that living with imperfect bodies is unfair? According to the prophets of "not so old" handicapped bodies, as well as dark skin are a sign and a consequence of not being diligent in the War in Heaven. Following this logic, everything is fair.
Nemo- Any thoughts on the cancellation of priesthood/women's Saturday night sessions for future General Conferences. Just announced today by the Church.
Seems a shame that it may well reduce the already under represented voices of women, but we'll have to wait and see!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Plus the fact that before 2018, the priesthood could have a bromance night. When the Saturday night session was for men only each general conference, we would have a potluck at church. The priesthood would show off their cooking skills. One guy made his own hot sauce and wings, others brought salads, desserts, pizza, lasagna, soup, stews, baked potatoes, etc. That is a loss members are talking about with this latest decision. I presume the women will lose any exclusivity in the conference sessions. At one time, they had a two day conference one week before general conference.
I want to know who thought these backdrops were good. It looks like closeups of bacon
“With all my achey breakey heart… I really gotta fart.”
Yeah it's called kicking the can down the road, just wait and pray only if ur faithful you may have an answer.
Enjoy your videos...
My question.....I know you're still a member of the Lds church, unless its changed....just wondering how you interpret the church now with all your videos? I'm going through my own faith crisis now, since I found out some of those things now on the internet. There's things I really love about the church, but I'm just not sure about the other things, beliefs etc. I guess I'm just asking, if you decided to stay in the church despite the videos...how you decided... there's no right answer just thinking my have some insight...thanks!
Douglas! You must have been in Coventry Stake when I was there. I was in Warwick Branch, my brother was on the Stake Presidency. Calisto isn’t my real name, needless to say.
I can't stand Renlund. I know they are all condescending, but comparing genocide to allowance is beyond the pale. Hairs on the back of my neck are standing on end.
It’s not great! Which is British English for its absolutely terrible!
If The Choice is getting shoes for your kids that will fit or paying tithing… well I think we all know the right choice.
I have to weigh in, here!
To start with, Renlund is a Swede (i.e., of Swedish descent). This is important to know, because his people, over in Sweden, were "neutral" during World War 2.
(Sweden declared its neutrality, and Hitler basically "left them alone", as a result.)
So, if life is horrific and unfair (as during the Nazi aggression), just pull your head into your tortoise shell, to avoid having to deal with it directly.
Sorry, guys: I always thought of Swedes, overall, as pusillanimous (and Renlund is no exception).
As a "caveat", though, I knew a Utah Swede, once, who had real determination...
Nice message from a leader who belongs to a church that has a long history of injustice, lying, and false testimony, etc...past and present. His message is not unique and is a little underwhelming. He comes from a world of privilege mostly unearned and mostly by circumstance, chance. These churches are rotten and suspect he, personally, does very little, in the form of action, to make changes. And he finishes with a non-scriptural concept of being with one's family and the whole Lamanite/Nephite mythology...ugh. These old, false leaders are not discerning. A lot of great things are coming your way...but only after you are dead and have accepted the Mormon god. In the meantime, just take it and believe that the Mormon god exists though he has never shown to exist.
YEAH for Magic Jebus !!!
Why is Stephenson's work even necessary if we have Jesus?
There is no answer as to why God intervenes sometimes and not at others. It is basic to the Christian Gospel that all unjust suffering will be compensated for in the life to come. The sufferings of the present will be compensated for by a glory that far exceeds them, and God will wipe away every tear. There will be no more sorrow or pain. However clumsily the speaker may have been in his presentation, I think that he did have in mind the Scriptural promises and the resurrection for all through the Saviour's atonement.
@@ahashdahnagila6884 What sacred scripture do you take your quote from about the "ant farm under glass", and your conception of God being "there to observe the goings on of mankind"? It is not the Christian Scriptures, nor, I would suppose, any LDS scripture. While the Holy Bible does say that God is continually observing our goings on, it also speaks of Him interacting with mankind, bringing about blessings and judgments. It also shows Him allowing innocents to suffer, and rewarding them with marvelous and unimaginable consolations and blessings for eternity. The Christian faith looks beyond this present life of temporary trials and probation. That is the hope provided by Jesus Christ's obedient earthly life and His atonement and resurrection..
He used rhyming like he was turning the topic of serious levels of unfairness into a poem, but the rhythm of it was off so it wasn't a poem. It felt out of place to me. It felt like he was trying to be clever and cutesy, but this talk wasn't the time or place for it. He said, "Some individuals make injurious mistakes even when they are trying to do good. Some choose not to alleviate unfairness when they could. Distressingly, some individuals use their God-given agency to hurt others when they never should."
This man shouldn't be speaking in public.
Does he have any idea what our prayers are like.
God either causes bad things to happen, doesn’t care that bad things happen or can’t stop bad things from happening. So I argue I’m better than god as I would help if I could but since I don’t believe in god it doesn’t really matter.
This talk is insulting.
Oh Nemo I tried to stomach his melotanous sounding voice. Is that supposed to have him seem more sincere? I just could not finish listening to him. No wonder people turn to others teachers offering much more comforting wisdom.
To all of you in the comments saying you’ve left the church, have you really? Do you ever will leave the church? Wishful thinking. You will be in tangled with the church for as long as you live, as you will never leave it alone. Nemo is a cunning man, as he is just taking little pieces of information from here and there to accomplish his evil plan.
"Jesus suffered worse, and it's our fault", is pretty normal for mainstream Christians as well.
Been enjoying your videos! Have you considered joining TikTok?
His suit is too big for hi
About stone catching… don't bother, throw all the stones you want, If you are wrong Jesus will fix it later.
The flimsey LDS view of God's judgement aka hell, does not help this situation. The broader Christian worldview allows divine judgement to be acknowledged within circumstances of injustice. Those who enact genocide do not "get away" with it in light of a holy, just God.
Is that a Doctorate certificate on the wall behind you NEMO ? If not it should be a diploma in exposing bull shit
It says in D&C that God can't do anything unless we have faith. So we need to ask in faith for God to intervene, otherwise He can't. However, I doubt that none of the half a million Rwandans, or any others who were aware of what was happening, asked for God's help. So we're still left without a good answer as to why He didn't prevent their genocide.
Never a Mormon, but went to Utah State for my Junior year: How can y’all it through these conference talks where everyone talks in a unmodulated monotones. Zzzzzzzzz
This talk feels like such a dog whistle when you consider the history of doctrines saying that PoC were less valiant in the past life. “You were less valiant. You deserve inequality. It’s not unfair at all.” Gross gross gross.
Pretty grim, I agree!
Listening to the original talk by Elder Renlund is uplifting. It makes perfect sense. What seems strange is to listen to you try to tear it down. Why are you still a member of this incredible Christian faith NEMO? Which parts of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ do you still believe in, my friend?
"You mean there is something I can do for my dead relatives?"
Yes. But first you get baptized and give us 10% of your income for a year.
The entire universe works just as if there were no god. I think I know why.
I think it can be explained in a soundbite: God is probably just imaginary.
This talk's lack of substance just brings me one step closer to atheism.
I must object here. This may sound egotistical, but I haven't seen one cent from Bill and Melinda, while the $2B the church gives includes my rent and food every month. Let's remember that they could give $0 if they so desired. Why can't we be thankful for both? Overall I agree with everything in this talk, even if I don't share the same testimony and believe in doing good for others for it's own sake, not for promises of rewards or fear of punishment. But I'm thankful when someone helps me regardless of the reasoning behind it.
Stop this it's shans arguments
Well, since you believe God is unfair, it seems to me that your goal is to make this accusation at some point with the expectation that God will be indicted and convicted of his alleged unfairness. Since God created everything, your accusation seems to be that He should be punished for all unfairness. So now it seems to me that we can see why Jesus Christ was crucified. As Jehovah, he created the earth and everything on it. So if the earth had not been created, then the unfairness that took place on earth would not have happened. What it seems to me you are missing is the fact that God told his creations how to be fair. It was their decisions, not His, that caused the unfairness. If they had done what he asked them to do, everything would have been fine.
So what is your plan? Obviously, you feel better qualified to tell people what they should do than you believe Dale G. Renlund is. Do you think God is going to see your qualifications and replace Dale G. Renlund with you, or are you planning to start your own thing and contend against unfairness from some other basis than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, such as, concerned Christians and their vast network of accusations against the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
I think you will choose to be a tare among the wheat and walk a fine line attempting to criticize from within the church. In most ways, the concerned Christians outside of the church seem more honest than you are, and I do not see them as honest people.