Really wish i could give, I've loved your podcast for many years and haven't missed an episode. You're one of the few podcasts in the world who tries to create a space that is respectful towards religious, non religious, liberal conservative, etc etc people. I'm always recommending you to everyone! And I i try to like and comment etc, but sadly we don't have the income for any media subscriptions/donations
Every episode is so informative. Dr.Harris is helping me remember so much of my childhood and young adult life. I too am a fan of Martin Luther King. Thank you for the series and I’m glad I have the book. Glad we can donate a little bit each month.
Hugh B Brown was my mom’s mission president. I was in his home when I was a little girl. When my oldest brother died in 1959, he was a great comfort to my parents. I have some of his talks on cassette tapes. Thank you for sharing about him. ❤️
I remember my Grandpa holding John Birch Society meetings in his home. I remember being invited as a young couple to his meetings. Conservatism was as much of my religious upbringing as the BofM or stories of Jesus. I remember so many Cleon Skousen Family Home Evening lessons. 😊
Many people don't know that while at Divinity School in Pennsylvania, Dr. King and a young white woman named Betty Moitz fell deeply in love and wanted to marry. They dated multiple years while he was there. His friends convinced him that he could never realize his plans for his future married to a white woman in the South. People close to him say he was devasted and never recovered. Not excusing any pain he caused to Coretta but it shows how much he really did give up for his life's work. I first learned of it many years ago in Coretta Scott King's autobiography but there was good in-depth piece about it in Politico not too long ago.
So glad to have studied under Siegried and England at BYU in the late 90s. I participated in study abroad in England; he was a beautiful influence on my life.
This series is so good! Thank you! I grew up in east Idaho in the 90s and early 2000s. I don't remember hearing about the John Birch Society, but everything youve said that Benson was talking about was taught in church and in seminary. It's so interesting to hear where that stuff came from.
Thank you Matt Harris for your work and research here. I remember being at BYU for my first semester as a transfer student, and ending up in Reed Benson's Book of Mormon class. The discussion he wanted was a sort of fill-in-the-blank style, where he would only accept the exact answer he was looking for. There were about three women in the class. He said, to me, no real need for women to be in this class.
My wife had Reed Benson for New Testament at BYU. She learned more about his father and the "freedom movement" than she did the Bible. Such is the course when you get a political ideologue who doesn't know anything about biblical languages or culture.
The discussion on McConkie is great. I went through a Bruce R. McConkie phrase for several years before I left the church. I honestly think that McConkie believed what he believed because he saw it as an integral part of the gospel - that the racial parts of Mormonism could never be disconnected from the religion itself without making the whole thing collapse. I'm ashamed to admit it, but those thoughts and ideas can be convincing - especially when they come from him. The LDS Church needs to come out publicly and repudiate those teachings for once and for all. If it continues to be silent, others will be drawn in by the rhetoric.
@@danielevensen5539 ty for the comment and please don't be ashamed, IMO the shame and blame falls on the leaders & teachers. You demonstrate how we all can learn and grow and work to reality test & try to believe factual and true things - and be kind. Take good care.
Can you do a show about LDS support for Trump? I can't for the life of me understand how Mormon folks can back a man with so little regard for decency.
@kellymillnerhalls1723 and @kelleyturner: "DECENCY" has, really, nothing to do with performance, personal appearance, social- or religious memberships or community participation, or professional success or achievement. DECENCY is about HUMANITY. EXAMPLE: Conversion Therapy (i.e. electro-shock "treatments") carried out up- on persons identified as - or suspected of - being "guilty" of homosexuality AT BYU in 1970s +. This included engaging students to spy on - and report fellow-students; tricking persons into entrap- ments for purposes of identification as "candidates" for such treatment; and often threatening loss of continuance of university curriculum, scholarships, and matriculation if they declined to submit to these "test" and "treatment" sessions. These crimes of medical negligence, incompetence, and ignorant abuse being conducted under top-level BYU administrators' knowledge and direction, only to be repeatedly disavowed, denied, and "unremembered" year after year thereafter. But these authorizations came down from the walking, talking, PARADIGMS of pious virtue and social D E C E N C Y. The same persons STILL up to the same level of the lowest possible conducts that would, for "lesser mortals", result in lifetime sentences in prison. 😶
At the end where they say they don’t want to apologize because of fear of loosing apostolic authority. Have they read 1 Corinthians 13 specifically verse 8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away” prophesies will fail without charity and in this case in particular the apostles and the group as a whole failed because of their lack of charity. They forgot to apply it in their teachings and in their dealings with others.
I know Gene England when he was branch president in northfield minnesota. We had many long chats about religion as a young missionary. I had never meet such an open minded mormon before. I have yet to hear many of the stories he told me about the church or his life. But to say the lest Gene highly influenced me. He always was trying to find the truth no matter where it my be found. And he would not back down when he was committed to a believe. However he was not afraid to change his mind if there was prove.
My one memory of Ezra Benson dates to 1989 when he and Monson dedicated the Portland Temple ( actually in Lake Oswego) which I attended . Monson did all of the talking which I thought was strange, until he told Benson to wave to everyone. It was clear from his vacant smile and his glazed eyes that the lights were on but nobody was home. I suspect that Hinkley ruled the church way before he became the actual church president: Was not surprised when Steve Benson blew the lid off the cover up over his grandfathers dementia.
Hinckley basically ran the charge in the early-mid 80’s when Kimball, Romney and Hanks were all incapacitated, and then ran it again from the late 80’s on when Benson was
With all due respect to Matt who is obviously being respectful to the Church and BYU understandably, IDK why anyone with any qualifications and credentials would want to teach anything related to history, religion, social sciences etc at BYU. There’s clearly little to no academic freedom when it comes to those subjects
Great information. Look forward to reading the book. And reaching out to dennis gladwell again to ask.. why didnt he share these stories as a professor at the U?
Where can we find a copy of the apology from Benson to the members of the church after his 14 fundamentals talk? Matt Harris stated he found a copy in church archives.
Another terrific and thoughtful episode. I am a couple of chapters behind in the book, the videos really complement but don't replace actually reading it. I really liked Julia's question at the end about the resistance to an actual apology vs what many other churches were doing, and Dr. Harris' response. What else could they be wrong about? It appears to be just about everything, sadly, from all I have learned in my recent deep dive into Mormonism. Failing to apologize does not hide that in the internet age, even with such strong attempts at information control of members (the I in Dr. Steven Hassan's BITE model and scale of coercive control by organizations or individuals). More tellingly, Dr. Harris notes that the Q15 functions as a de facto family. Even with deep internal divisions are committed to a united front publicly. This sounds just like the mafia, actually. Healthy families can handle dissent and difference, even more publicly in their communities. And take moral responsibility for harm. If this were a tiny offbeat religious sect it would matter a lot less to the rest of us NeverMormons. Unfortunately it is now one of the wealthiest churches per capita with great political and economic power. The leadership as a whole, and much of the remaining active membership, remains deeply reactionary. This is seen especially now in patriarchy and antiLGBTQIA+, but the racism is still there. The recent forced closure by the 90%+ LDS Utah Legislature (supermajority Republicans) of all of the longstanding offices for diverse or disempowered groups at public universities like my alma mater the U of Utah, including the Black Student Union, MECHA, and the Women's Resource Center, shows the racism and sexism is still strong. I don't care however nice my neighbors and state elected officials may be as people, if this is what they do. The mean, horrible people are much easier to reject and counter, honestly. Plenty of nice people have perpetrated horrible things on out groups. I realize many of them are indoctrinated but at what point do we as individuals hold that supposed conservative value, personal responsibility? Your episodes show how few leaders demonstrate it versus holding power and privilege. Many individual members like Dr. Dehlin actually internalized the teaching about honesty in dealings with their felllow (hu)man, following the law, and doing what is right, letting the consequences follow. (did I say I went down a deep Mormonism rabbit hole, starting with MSP? ;) ) Anyway, thank you for this eye opening and challenging book. I have donated to the series and bought several copies to give to others. BTW to anyone who read this far, if you have a few spare $ after donating to this series, please consider a donation to the now-non-sponsored U of Utah Black Student Union group who lost their group funding after refusing to agree to not talk about race at all in their activities. I don't have a link to post but I think the Trib article said they started a GoFundMe to do things like pay for refreshments at activities and other basic costs for their club. MECHA too.
I get PTSD from Mormon Stories, even though I have Never been LDS - except for Close Encounters through family friends and academic associations. 👏 for Dr. Harris ! Academic Occupations are difficult to obtain due to scarcity and competition , but All Cognitive Teaching Staff in BYU & Affiliated Institutions should just make an Exit En Masse , and seek Real Employment elsewhere. I have been an Avid Archery Practitioner and History aficionado for decades, and I have yet to find any forms of Recurve Bows in the “New World”, although well developed and documented in the historic Middle East and in Asia. ( As a Side Note: ¿ who is the Woman in this and other Mormon Stories who Speaks in Staccato 2X Speed without special effects ? 🧐🤔 )
I met Steve and his wife a couple of times in the early 1990s. I think it had something to do with the Mormon Peace Gathering, specifically planning it. England, by the way, went to this anti-nuclear testing protest outside Vegas. But back to Epperson, as a secular non-believing Jew I was interested in his book on Mormons and Jews, which we talked about along with other things including peace activism and social ethics.. Great bloke, great book. He was, at the time, working at one of the museums. I did go to see Thatcher when she was allowed to speak at the Y... As someone who once lived in Moscow while doing research the authoritarianism of Mormon culture, particularly at the Y, reminded me a lot of the post-thaw USSR, a place where intellectuals had to be very circumspect. Those who weren’t often paid the price. In private, however, they had the best political jokes including great ones about Brezhnev and the impotent’s dream.
Yes, thank you. You are correct. The minute the episode ended I realized I said Parks when I should have said King. (But in the book I didn't make that mistake:])
Hello Dr. Harris @matthewharris7151 - ty again for your book & work. This video touched on other churches starting to make public apologies while the Brighamite LDS Church did not. You also mentioned the author of the book Mormon Enigma about Emma Hale Smith, Joseph Smith Jr's one legal wife. That raised a question for me: how did the RLDS, now Community of Christ, navigate the racist scriptures and joint history until the asassination of the founder? Did they ever have a priesthood ban? Have you written anything on the RLDS & civil rights? Would you consider doing a followup video on the RLDS/CoC with MSP & perhaps John Hamer, or another expert from their group? Other restorationist sects went very different directions. If only....
Yes, I have written on RLDS and LDS views of civil rights. See here: Matthew L. Harris, “A Tale of Two Religions: RLDS and LDS Responses to the Civil Rights Movement,” The John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 43, no. 1 (Spring/Summer 2023). I'd be happy to interview with Hamer.
@@matthewharris7151 Hello Dr. Harris, thank you for the reply & reference, I will see if I can track down the article, it sounds exactly like what I am looking for. Re a discussion with John Hamer, I would love Mormon Stories to host a discussion with you, Hamer, and hopefully a Black member of each church tradition. I am less familiar with the CoC but expect John Hamer would be able to invite someone who would be a good guest. I don't have a direct line to John Dehlin so perhaps make that suggestion if it is something you see as valuable of your time. Btw I met you in person at your talk at WellerBooks, one of our best friends is Chuck Nabors' son. He and his sister love the book, I got both of them copies that you signed. I just go by my initials in public comments :) Oh and happy holidays to you and yours.
The John Burch Society was just like the modern MAGA movement. I went with my mother to several John Burch Society meetings and they made you pissed as hell.
Laurel thatcher apparently cousin to my mom who was VERY Into family history. I know in depth stories from relatives in her line but I’m realizing I know virtually Nothing about her or any relative that was sus🤔Thanks for all Your work!
Eugene England's father was the London England Temple President during the 2960s. I met Eugene England when he worked in the UK. I'm a friend of his daughter.
When I was in high school around 1972, I took a Social Problems class. The teacher had us read “The Naked Capitalist” by Skousen. We then spent half a year being indoctrinated into Bircherism. The other Social Problems class was doing fun and interesting stuff. How on earth was that teacher allowed to teach that?!
Bruce R M was not a theologian he had no formal training in theology, religion, or anything even close he had an arts degree from the university of Utah and I think he was a pathologist. Can we please stop calling him a theologian he wrote a book with his own interpretation of the Scriptures, not backed by anything remotely close to theological thought, if we keep calling him, the Mormon theologian we just keep perpetuating the myth that he had valid thoughts. The church clearly should tell people not to read that awful book. I read it as a young man on a mission never felt the spirit while reading it. As a person of color it made me feel inferior I felt it then as I do now it is the ramblings of a zealot.
You are correct. McConkie was not trained as a theologian--but I am using that term loosely. For Latter-day Saints, he was a theologian because he defined and shaped Mormon theology for nearly half a century. I would use that term to describe others like him, including BH Roberts, James Talmage, Joseph Fielding Smith, and John Widtsoe. None are trained in theology, but like McConkie, they shaped the theology. I hope this clarifies my position.
@ I respect and admire your work. I agree many LDS view him and the others mentioned as theologians it is sad that we elevate them to this considering the majority of their writings value amount to nothing more than personal belief. Thus my frustration in elevating them to the status of theologians.
Never in here. On the matter of priesthood blessings I'm wondering, would not most people get told they will be an important part of the church or something similarly aspirational or motivating? I can't see anyone being told "You will be nothing special", etc?
Sure @esterdot, in the interest of accuracy and precision, MEANT to say, "TYPOGRAPHICAL" error. As to the podcast, that will surely be accurate/precise, fascinating, informative and VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
How odd. Gerardo, for whom English is a second language, knows how to pronounce correctly the word "brethren," whereas two PhDs persist with the hicky "brotherin." It is very simple. The correct "brethren" is a two-syllable word and the incorrect "brotherin" is a three-syllable word. Brigham Young, who was apparently barely literate, used "brotherin," as may be seen in the Journal of Discourses, where many of his speeches are recorded. If you doubt it, please call Radio Free Mormon, who has commented on this issue in his podcast titled "A Marvelous Work and a Blunder," reviewing a film made by the church. The actor playing Joseph Smith in the film said "brotherin," thereby manifesting his connection to the moridor. Better yet, just ask Gerardo.
Respectfully, in my opinion, your observation the conflates the concepts of intelligence, formal education, first and second language acquisition, and formal versus informal communication. I hear many people from the U.S. pronounce brethren as "breth-e-ren" in three syllables rather than two. We (Americans) also tend to pronounce "says" as "sais," like "said," while the British usually pronounce the y in "says." These are examples of regional vernacular. I hold a master's degree, and yet, I informally say, "fixin' to," sometimes because I am a Texan. Maybe it sounds "hicky" to some snobby people, but it doesn't negate my intelligence or academic achievement. I hadn't noticed anyone saying, "brotherin." I will start listening more closely for that. RFM is great and I will slso check out the episode. Maybe that is a piece of Mormon vernacular. These panelists are all highly intelligent regardless of variations in word pronunciation. (Edited for typos)
👍😄🤣👏 English is Also my Second Language. Colloquial Dialects taken into Account ( as I have lived in diverse geographic locals due to military service ), I am still often Irritated by Native Speakers who Flagrantly Mispronounce their own language, and have to “Figure Out” by Context, WTF they are Trying to Say 😖 Ham 🍖 in many parts of Appalachia is still a Two Syllables word 😄
@MsFrenulum1 variations in pronunciation due to regional dialect and accent are not mispronunciation. You're just... wrong. English has a myriad of accents and dialects. Incidentally, your capitalization choices are wrong; we only capitalize proper nouns in correctly written English. If you're going to lecture people on their accent, make sure your writing is flawless first.
Rhetorical question? Ever any conservative professors targeted at BYU? I know you claim, to try and be fair and balanced in your views Mr. Dehlin. But my wife and I have been watching for a few years now, and I’m just not seeing any real evidence of defending those who hold more conservative values or viewpoints. I get that it’s nice to have a captured audience, but why is it everyone seems to be moving to these states with the more traditional conservative values? If you’re an individual who’s genuinely concerned about looking at both sides of any issue, then you already know the real answer to that question?
@@mormonstories Apologies for the delayed response Dr. Dehlin. 1. Answer; Steven E. Jones, Prof. of Physics @ BYU 1985-2007. 2. Answer; IMO, for the same reasons such individuals as yourself have the tendency to stay in these more conservative communities, rather than pulling up roots and moving to an area of the country that tends to reflect the more liberal types of values you profess? Those place being for example, Seattle WA, Portland OR, Washington DC, San Francisco CA, Oakland CA, Los Angeles CA, Chicago IL, etc., etc. Another way I could try and frame this point, would be through the lens of gun violence statistics and how they relate to, not only that of red and blue states in the US, but to the major cities in America as well. Let’s look at our very own beloved Beehive State, it having, I’m sure you would agree some of the most relaxed restrictions with regards to firearm ownership, availability, background checks, and waiting periods, as well as the types of firearms available to its citizens. Compare this then, with let’s say, the Prairie State of Illinois. Of which, has undoubtedly some of the most restrictive and unconstitutional laws and regulations, regarding the personal ownership of firearms, and therefore one’s right to self defense in general. Now were we to survey the average American high school student upon which of the two examples given, might have the higher rate of gun violence? As most, I’d venture to guess it would be that of the former state, of which is so near and dear to our hearts. I would also declare with similar confidence, that you and I, being two male adults of the same age, having a lot more in common than most, especially considering where we were raised, and the circumstances of how that came to be. Would both have to admit, that the answer most likely proposed and which no doubt, came from a place of love, by these young students, would be woefully incorrect. I hope you can see what I’m alluding to here with this sort of analogy Dr. Dehlin? But again, while I understand where you’re coming from with regard to your opinions about the church, and I’d have to agree, it’s mostly conservative values. Simply stating, it appears as though you’re throwing the baby out with the bath water? Although due to our very similar life circumstances, I know this not to be the case. That you do recognize some of the reasons contributing to the current appeal of these conservative states, along with reasons for the recent influx of so many moving into their borders. Or, maybe I’ve just missed, or haven’t come across those episodes you’ve put together in which you have defended the views and opinions of those with more conservative beliefs? If that’s the case, please accept my sincerest apologies. To close, I hope you don’t view my attitude in putting forward this comparison, in anyway as condescending? Or perhaps consider me, as I would assume most reading this might? As being your stereotypical, ultra conservative, nationalist, native born, Utah male. I can assure you, I’m anything but? Thanks again though for taking the time to respond John, and best wishes to you and your family, especially this time of year.
Yes, conservative BYU professors were targeted too, mostly because of their advocacy of John Birch Society ideologies in the classroom. This included Glenn Pearson, Cleon Skousen, Hyrum Andrus, and Reid Bankhead.
Your defense of King's adultery sounds like the LDS defending Joseph's polygamy: he was too important to bother with morality - yes he was flawed, but look at all the good he did. Unfortunately, if I'm being honest, the hypocrisy totally undermines your defense of King on this issue. If it's good for the goose King, isn't it also good for the gander Joseph Smith?
@@marlenemeyer9841 Fair. So I guess my question is, when does the good of whatever a man stands for outweigh the bad of his objectifying women? One could argue civil rights is more important than eternal salvation, but others might successfully argue the opposite. Are women's rights ever worth denying for a "greater good" - whether from King, Smith, Warren Jeffs, Bill Clinton, or anyone else?
Joseph Smith was telling the women that it was God's will. Maybe believed that himself. Martin Luther King knew he was a flawed man, and not speaking for God.
So you want us to pay you tithing. You’re learning that for an organization to succeed it needs funding. Yet you criticize this policy for other organizations. Got it.
I don’t understand why Matt Harris laughs at people that he talks about, that go against the strong culture of the church. Saying that they don’t understand that there are things that you can or cannot do or say in the church. Why is it funny for someone to be different than the norm?
A lot of people opposed the MLK Day at first, including John McCain. But by the 1990s most conservatives came onboard except the Utah legislature. As I explain in the book, it took Gordon Hinckley to convince them to change their minds and support the holiday.
Really wish i could give, I've loved your podcast for many years and haven't missed an episode. You're one of the few podcasts in the world who tries to create a space that is respectful towards religious, non religious, liberal conservative, etc etc people. I'm always recommending you to everyone! And I i try to like and comment etc, but sadly we don't have the income for any media subscriptions/donations
Every episode is so informative. Dr.Harris is helping me remember so much of my childhood and young adult life. I too am a fan of Martin Luther King. Thank you for the series and I’m glad I have the book. Glad we can donate a little bit each month.
I'm glad you're enjoying the series. Thanks for your support!
Hugh B Brown was my mom’s mission president. I was in his home when I was a little girl. When my oldest brother died in 1959, he was a great comfort to my parents. I have some of his talks on cassette tapes. Thank you for sharing about him. ❤️
I remember my Grandpa holding John Birch Society meetings in his home. I remember being invited as a young couple to his meetings. Conservatism was as much of my religious upbringing as the BofM or stories of Jesus. I remember so many Cleon Skousen Family Home Evening lessons. 😊
@@susiekathryn8570 so as a never Mormon, all this time I've thought Hugh B. Brown's name was Hubie Brown. 😂 I'm so glad you wrote it out lol.
How I would love to take classes from Dr. Harris
Many people don't know that while at Divinity School in Pennsylvania, Dr. King and a young white woman named Betty Moitz fell deeply in love and wanted to marry. They dated multiple years while he was there. His friends convinced him that he could never realize his plans for his future married to a white woman in the South.
People close to him say he was devasted and never recovered.
Not excusing any pain he caused to Coretta but it shows how much he really did give up for his life's work.
I first learned of it many years ago in Coretta Scott King's autobiography but there was good in-depth piece about it in Politico not too long ago.
So glad to have studied under Siegried and England at BYU in the late 90s. I participated in study abroad in England; he was a beautiful influence on my life.
This series is so good! Thank you!
I grew up in east Idaho in the 90s and early 2000s. I don't remember hearing about the John Birch Society, but everything youve said that Benson was talking about was taught in church and in seminary. It's so interesting to hear where that stuff came from.
I bought Matt’s great book and donate monthly to Open Stories Foundation- gotta love this content👏
Do you consider this tithing?
@ yup, Telestial Tithing🤣
Thank you for your support!
Thank you Matt Harris for your work and research here. I remember being at BYU for my first semester as a transfer student, and ending up in Reed Benson's Book of Mormon class. The discussion he wanted was a sort of fill-in-the-blank style, where he would only accept the exact answer he was looking for. There were about three women in the class. He said, to me, no real need for women to be in this class.
My wife had Reed Benson for New Testament at BYU. She learned more about his father and the "freedom movement" than she did the Bible. Such is the course when you get a political ideologue who doesn't know anything about biblical languages or culture.
The discussion on McConkie is great.
I went through a Bruce R. McConkie phrase for several years before I left the church. I honestly think that McConkie believed what he believed because he saw it as an integral part of the gospel - that the racial parts of Mormonism could never be disconnected from the religion itself without making the whole thing collapse.
I'm ashamed to admit it, but those thoughts and ideas can be convincing - especially when they come from him.
The LDS Church needs to come out publicly and repudiate those teachings for once and for all. If it continues to be silent, others will be drawn in by the rhetoric.
@@danielevensen5539 ty for the comment and please don't be ashamed, IMO the shame and blame falls on the leaders & teachers. You demonstrate how we all can learn and grow and work to reality test & try to believe factual and true things - and be kind. Take good care.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!
Can you do a show about LDS support for Trump? I can't for the life of me understand how Mormon folks can back a man with so little regard for decency.
Mormon folks supporting Trump. Dude, a majority of the whole country support Trump. I suppose you think Harris was a better candidate?
@@shanejensen8484no comparison. Trump is utterly corrupt. Just wait and see.
Yes please!!!! As a LDS, I'm stunned members, Christians, anyone would voted for him!
@kellymillnerhalls1723 and @kelleyturner:
"DECENCY" has, really, nothing to do with performance, personal appearance, social- or religious memberships or community participation,
or professional success or achievement. DECENCY is
about HUMANITY.
EXAMPLE:
Conversion Therapy
(i.e. electro-shock
"treatments") carried out up- on persons identified as - or suspected of - being "guilty" of homosexuality AT BYU in 1970s +.
This included engaging students to spy on - and
report fellow-students; tricking persons into entrap- ments for purposes of identification as "candidates" for such treatment; and often threatening loss of continuance of university curriculum, scholarships, and matriculation if they declined to submit to these "test" and "treatment" sessions.
These crimes of medical negligence, incompetence, and ignorant abuse being conducted under top-level BYU administrators' knowledge and direction, only to be repeatedly disavowed, denied, and "unremembered" year after year thereafter.
But these authorizations came down from the walking, talking, PARADIGMS of pious virtue and social
D E C E N C Y.
The same persons STILL up to the same level of the lowest possible conducts that would, for "lesser mortals", result in lifetime sentences in prison.
😶
You have been brainwashed
The Church still considers many second-class.
Yes, ex mormons are the worst. Don't let your kids play with their kids.
Also if you can't donate like sub and comment. Honestly I put in that I hate ketchup just to boost to engagement for videos I really care about
@@USBCORD11 but we know you really love ketchup right…. RIGHT!!!! 🤣🤣
Thanks for “disavowing” ketchup racism but when will you “apologize” for that while continuing to embrace white and delight some mayonnaise 😂
At the end where they say they don’t want to apologize because of fear of loosing apostolic authority. Have they read 1 Corinthians 13 specifically verse 8 “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away” prophesies will fail without charity and in this case in particular the apostles and the group as a whole failed because of their lack of charity. They forgot to apply it in their teachings and in their dealings with others.
Love these
Church and State should remember they are meant to be separate!
I know Gene England when he was branch president in northfield minnesota. We had many long chats about religion as a young missionary. I had never meet such an open minded mormon before. I have yet to hear many of the stories he told me about the church or his life. But to say the lest Gene highly influenced me. He always was trying to find the truth no matter where it my be found. And he would not back down when he was committed to a believe. However he was not afraid to change his mind if there was prove.
Spencer Palmer wasn’t Satan in the temple film. He was the preacher.
Thank you. Watching from Alaska. 🤔
⚖️
My one memory of Ezra Benson dates to 1989 when he and Monson dedicated the Portland Temple ( actually in Lake Oswego) which I attended . Monson did all of the talking which I thought was strange, until he told Benson to wave to everyone. It was clear from his vacant smile and his glazed eyes that the lights were on but nobody was home. I suspect that Hinkley ruled the church way before he became the actual church president:
Was not surprised when Steve Benson blew the lid off the cover up over his grandfathers dementia.
Yes, the Q15 embrace “Elder Abuse” as much as they enable child sexual abusers.
Hinckley basically ran the charge in the early-mid 80’s when Kimball, Romney and Hanks were all incapacitated, and then ran it again from the late 80’s on when Benson was
With all due respect to Matt who is obviously being respectful to the Church and BYU understandably, IDK why anyone with any qualifications and credentials would want to teach anything related to history, religion, social sciences etc at BYU. There’s clearly little to no academic freedom when it comes to those subjects
Truth is power. Blessings
Great information. Look forward to reading the book. And reaching out to dennis gladwell again to ask.. why didnt he share these stories as a professor at the U?
Where can we find a copy of the apology from Benson to the members of the church after his 14 fundamentals talk? Matt Harris stated he found a copy in church archives.
Unfortunately, it is not a public document. You'd have to go to the church archives to see it.
Another terrific and thoughtful episode. I am a couple of chapters behind in the book, the videos really complement but don't replace actually reading it.
I really liked Julia's question at the end about the resistance to an actual apology vs what many other churches were doing, and Dr. Harris' response. What else could they be wrong about? It appears to be just about everything, sadly, from all I have learned in my recent deep dive into Mormonism. Failing to apologize does not hide that in the internet age, even with such strong attempts at information control of members (the I in Dr. Steven Hassan's BITE model and scale of coercive control by organizations or individuals).
More tellingly, Dr. Harris notes that the Q15 functions as a de facto family. Even with deep internal divisions are committed to a united front publicly. This sounds just like the mafia, actually. Healthy families can handle dissent and difference, even more publicly in their communities. And take moral responsibility for harm. If this were a tiny offbeat religious sect it would matter a lot less to the rest of us NeverMormons. Unfortunately it is now one of the wealthiest churches per capita with great political and economic power. The leadership as a whole, and much of the remaining active membership, remains deeply reactionary. This is seen especially now in patriarchy and antiLGBTQIA+, but the racism is still there. The recent forced closure by the 90%+ LDS Utah Legislature (supermajority Republicans) of all of the longstanding offices for diverse or disempowered groups at public universities like my alma mater the U of Utah, including the Black Student Union, MECHA, and the Women's Resource Center, shows the racism and sexism is still strong. I don't care however nice my neighbors and state elected officials may be as people, if this is what they do. The mean, horrible people are much easier to reject and counter, honestly. Plenty of nice people have perpetrated horrible things on out groups. I realize many of them are indoctrinated but at what point do we as individuals hold that supposed conservative value, personal responsibility? Your episodes show how few leaders demonstrate it versus holding power and privilege. Many individual members like Dr. Dehlin actually internalized the teaching about honesty in dealings with their felllow (hu)man, following the law, and doing what is right, letting the consequences follow. (did I say I went down a deep Mormonism rabbit hole, starting with MSP? ;) )
Anyway, thank you for this eye opening and challenging book. I have donated to the series and bought several copies to give to others.
BTW to anyone who read this far, if you have a few spare $ after donating to this series, please consider a donation to the now-non-sponsored U of Utah Black Student Union group who lost their group funding after refusing to agree to not talk about race at all in their activities. I don't have a link to post but I think the Trib article said they started a GoFundMe to do things like pay for refreshments at activities and other basic costs for their club. MECHA too.
Also a UofU grad. This is sad news! Thanks for a well written post- a rarity!
I get PTSD from Mormon Stories, even though I have Never been LDS - except for Close Encounters through family friends and academic associations. 👏 for Dr. Harris ! Academic Occupations are difficult to obtain due to scarcity and competition , but All Cognitive Teaching Staff in BYU & Affiliated Institutions should just make an Exit En Masse , and seek Real Employment elsewhere. I have been an Avid Archery Practitioner and History aficionado for decades, and I have yet to find any forms of Recurve Bows in the “New World”, although well developed and documented in the historic Middle East and in Asia. ( As a Side Note: ¿ who is the Woman in this and other Mormon Stories who Speaks in Staccato 2X Speed without special effects ? 🧐🤔 )
John, devastatingly we have had to tighten our budget and cannot donate 😢
No worries!!!!
I met Steve and his wife a couple of times in the early 1990s. I think it had something to do with the Mormon Peace Gathering, specifically planning it. England, by the way, went to this anti-nuclear testing protest outside Vegas. But back to Epperson, as a secular non-believing Jew I was interested in his book on Mormons and Jews, which we talked about along with other things including peace activism and social ethics.. Great bloke, great book. He was, at the time, working at one of the museums.
I did go to see Thatcher when she was allowed to speak at the Y...
As someone who once lived in Moscow while doing research the authoritarianism of Mormon culture, particularly at the Y, reminded me a lot of the post-thaw USSR, a place where intellectuals had to be very circumspect. Those who weren’t often paid the price. In private, however, they had the best political jokes including great ones about Brezhnev and the impotent’s dream.
I think he meant Corretta Scott King instead of Rosa Parks. But so interesting. Thank you Dr. Harris.
Yes, thank you. You are correct. The minute the episode ended I realized I said Parks when I should have said King. (But in the book I didn't make that mistake:])
Love this series. How do we fact check the Annette Reed story?
Hello Dr. Harris @matthewharris7151 - ty again for your book & work.
This video touched on other churches starting to make public apologies while the Brighamite LDS Church did not. You also mentioned the author of the book Mormon Enigma about Emma Hale Smith, Joseph Smith Jr's one legal wife. That raised a question for me: how did the RLDS, now Community of Christ, navigate the racist scriptures and joint history until the asassination of the founder? Did they ever have a priesthood ban? Have you written anything on the RLDS & civil rights? Would you consider doing a followup video on the RLDS/CoC with MSP & perhaps John Hamer, or another expert from their group? Other restorationist sects went very different directions. If only....
Yes, I have written on RLDS and LDS views of civil rights. See here: Matthew L. Harris, “A Tale of Two Religions: RLDS and LDS Responses to the Civil Rights Movement,” The John Whitmer Historical Association Journal 43, no. 1 (Spring/Summer 2023). I'd be happy to interview with Hamer.
@@matthewharris7151 Hello Dr. Harris, thank you for the reply & reference, I will see if I can track down the article, it sounds exactly like what I am looking for.
Re a discussion with John Hamer, I would love Mormon Stories to host a discussion with you, Hamer, and hopefully a Black member of each church tradition. I am less familiar with the CoC but expect John Hamer would be able to invite someone who would be a good guest. I don't have a direct line to John Dehlin so perhaps make that suggestion if it is something you see as valuable of your time. Btw I met you in person at your talk at WellerBooks, one of our best friends is Chuck Nabors' son. He and his sister love the book, I got both of them copies that you signed. I just go by my initials in public comments :)
Oh and happy holidays to you and yours.
The John Burch Society was just like the modern MAGA movement. I went with my mother to several John Burch Society meetings and they made you pissed as hell.
Trump just appointed a woman to be his Chief of Staff. Would Rusty Nelson trust a woman with that level of power🤣
No argument from me!
Even Hitler had his b17@hes!
Laurel thatcher apparently cousin to my mom who was VERY Into family history. I know in depth stories from relatives in her line but I’m realizing I know virtually
Nothing about her or any relative that was sus🤔Thanks for all
Your work!
Eugene England's father was the London England Temple President during the 2960s. I met Eugene England when he worked in the UK. I'm a friend of his daughter.
When I was in high school around 1972, I took a Social Problems class. The teacher had us read “The Naked Capitalist” by Skousen. We then spent half a year being indoctrinated into Bircherism. The other Social Problems class was doing fun and interesting stuff. How on earth was that teacher allowed to teach that?!
Bruce R M was not a theologian he had no formal training in theology, religion, or anything even close he had an arts degree from the university of Utah and I think he was a pathologist. Can we please stop calling him a theologian he wrote a book with his own interpretation of the Scriptures, not backed by anything remotely close to theological thought, if we keep calling him, the Mormon theologian we just keep perpetuating the myth that he had valid thoughts. The church clearly should tell people not to read that awful book. I read it as a young man on a mission never felt the spirit while reading it. As a person of color it made me feel inferior I felt it then as I do now it is the ramblings of a zealot.
You are correct. McConkie was not trained as a theologian--but I am using that term loosely. For Latter-day Saints, he was a theologian because he defined and shaped Mormon theology for nearly half a century. I would use that term to describe others like him, including BH Roberts, James Talmage, Joseph Fielding Smith, and John Widtsoe. None are trained in theology, but like McConkie, they shaped the theology. I hope this clarifies my position.
@ I respect and admire your work. I agree many LDS view him and the others mentioned as theologians it is sad that we elevate them to this considering the majority of their writings value amount to nothing more than personal belief. Thus my frustration in elevating them to the status of theologians.
Never in here. On the matter of priesthood blessings I'm wondering, would not most people get told they will be an important part of the church or something similarly aspirational or motivating? I can't see anyone being told "You will be nothing special", etc?
Sure @esterdot, in the interest of accuracy and precision, MEANT to say,
"TYPOGRAPHICAL" error.
As to the podcast, that will surely be accurate/precise,
fascinating, informative and
VERY MUCH APPRECIATED.
How odd. Gerardo, for whom English is a second language, knows how to pronounce correctly the word "brethren," whereas two PhDs persist with the hicky "brotherin." It is very simple. The correct "brethren" is a two-syllable word and the incorrect "brotherin" is a three-syllable word. Brigham Young, who was apparently barely literate, used "brotherin," as may be seen in the Journal of Discourses, where many of his speeches are recorded. If you doubt it, please call Radio Free Mormon, who has commented on this issue in his podcast titled "A Marvelous Work and a Blunder," reviewing a film made by the church. The actor playing Joseph Smith in the film said "brotherin," thereby manifesting his connection to the moridor. Better yet, just ask Gerardo.
Respectfully, in my opinion, your observation the conflates the concepts of intelligence, formal education, first and second language acquisition, and formal versus informal communication. I hear many people from the U.S. pronounce brethren as "breth-e-ren" in three syllables rather than two. We (Americans) also tend to pronounce "says" as "sais," like "said," while the British usually pronounce the y in "says." These are examples of regional vernacular. I hold a master's degree, and yet, I informally say, "fixin' to," sometimes because I am a Texan. Maybe it sounds "hicky" to some snobby people, but it doesn't negate my intelligence or academic achievement. I hadn't noticed anyone saying, "brotherin." I will start listening more closely for that. RFM is great and I will slso check out the episode. Maybe that is a piece of Mormon vernacular. These panelists are all highly intelligent regardless of variations in word pronunciation.
(Edited for typos)
👍😄🤣👏 English is Also my Second Language. Colloquial Dialects taken into Account ( as I have lived in diverse geographic locals due to military service ), I am still often Irritated by Native Speakers who Flagrantly Mispronounce their own language, and have to “Figure Out” by Context, WTF they are Trying to Say 😖
Ham 🍖 in many parts of Appalachia is still a Two Syllables word 😄
@MsFrenulum1 variations in pronunciation due to regional dialect and accent are not mispronunciation. You're just... wrong. English has a myriad of accents and dialects.
Incidentally, your capitalization choices are wrong; we only capitalize proper nouns in correctly written English. If you're going to lecture people on their accent, make sure your writing is flawless first.
See regional speech cultures and variations in pronunciation.
Did members put their name on the hate mail...the lds love to ex communicate if you don't agree with them.
Way to go!!! Great BYU!!!
Rhetorical question? Ever any conservative professors targeted at BYU? I know you claim, to try and be fair and balanced in your views Mr. Dehlin. But my wife and I have been watching for a few years now, and I’m just not seeing any real evidence of defending those who hold more conservative values or viewpoints. I get that it’s nice to have a captured audience, but why is it everyone seems to be moving to these states with the more traditional conservative values? If you’re an individual who’s genuinely concerned about looking at both sides of any issue, then you already know the real answer to that question?
Do you know the answer to your questions Gordon? If so, please share.
@@mormonstories
Apologies for the delayed response Dr. Dehlin.
1. Answer; Steven E. Jones, Prof. of Physics @ BYU 1985-2007.
2. Answer; IMO, for the same reasons such individuals as yourself have the tendency to stay in these more conservative communities, rather than pulling up roots and moving to an area of the country that tends to reflect the more liberal types of values you profess? Those place being for example, Seattle WA, Portland OR, Washington DC, San Francisco CA, Oakland CA, Los Angeles CA, Chicago IL, etc., etc.
Another way I could try and frame this point, would be through the lens of gun violence statistics and how they relate to, not only that of red and blue states in the US, but to the major cities in America as well. Let’s look at our very own beloved Beehive State, it having, I’m sure you would agree some of the most relaxed restrictions with regards to firearm ownership, availability, background checks, and waiting periods, as well as the types of firearms available to its citizens. Compare this then, with let’s say, the Prairie State of Illinois. Of which, has undoubtedly some of the most restrictive and unconstitutional laws and regulations, regarding the personal ownership of firearms, and therefore one’s right to self defense in general. Now were we to survey the average American high school student upon which of the two examples given, might have the higher rate of gun violence? As most, I’d venture to guess it would be that of the former state, of which is so near and dear to our hearts. I would also declare with similar confidence, that you and I, being two male adults of the same age, having a lot more in common than most, especially considering where we were raised, and the circumstances of how that came to be. Would both have to admit, that the answer most likely proposed and which no doubt, came from a place of love, by these young students, would be woefully incorrect.
I hope you can see what I’m alluding to here with this sort of analogy Dr. Dehlin?
But again, while I understand where you’re coming from with regard to your opinions about the church, and I’d have to agree, it’s mostly conservative values. Simply stating, it appears as though you’re throwing the baby out with the bath water? Although due to our very similar life circumstances, I know this not to be the case. That you do recognize some of the reasons contributing to the current appeal of these conservative states, along with reasons for the recent influx of so many moving into their borders. Or, maybe I’ve just missed, or haven’t come across those episodes you’ve put together in which you have defended the views and opinions of those with more conservative beliefs? If that’s the case, please accept my sincerest apologies.
To close, I hope you don’t view my attitude in putting forward this comparison, in anyway as condescending? Or perhaps consider me, as I would assume most reading this might? As being your stereotypical, ultra conservative, nationalist, native born, Utah male. I can assure you, I’m anything but?
Thanks again though for taking the time to respond John, and best wishes to you and your family, especially this time of year.
Yes, conservative BYU professors were targeted too, mostly because of their advocacy of John Birch Society ideologies in the classroom. This included Glenn Pearson, Cleon Skousen, Hyrum Andrus, and Reid Bankhead.
**targets
Your defense of King's adultery sounds like the LDS defending Joseph's polygamy: he was too important to bother with morality - yes he was flawed, but look at all the good he did. Unfortunately, if I'm being honest, the hypocrisy totally undermines your defense of King on this issue. If it's good for the goose King, isn't it also good for the gander Joseph Smith?
Welcome to our imperfect world.
But one man was working for civil rights, the other was claiming to be the one and only man on earth speaking for God himself. There is a difference!
@@marlenemeyer9841 excellent points👏
@@marlenemeyer9841 Fair. So I guess my question is, when does the good of whatever a man stands for outweigh the bad of his objectifying women?
One could argue civil rights is more important than eternal salvation, but others might successfully argue the opposite.
Are women's rights ever worth denying for a "greater good" - whether from King, Smith, Warren Jeffs, Bill Clinton, or anyone else?
Joseph Smith was telling the women that it was God's will. Maybe believed that himself. Martin Luther King knew he was a flawed man, and not speaking for God.
I love ketchup
Ketchup is delicious.
@@tawneenielsen4080 USBCORD has spoken to the masses with their ketchup rhetoric 🤣
Hahah doesn’t surprise me at all!
tragets
😢😢😢😢
So you want us to pay you tithing. You’re learning that for an organization to succeed it needs funding. Yet you criticize this policy for other organizations. Got it.
Testify
Tragets 😂
I don’t understand why Matt Harris laughs at people that he talks about, that go against the strong culture of the church. Saying that they don’t understand that there are things that you can or cannot do or say in the church.
Why is it funny for someone to be different than the norm?
I can't imagine I was laughing at these folks. I admire them. Gene England is a hero to me--and others like him. I think you misread me here.
You need a black listener on. He just said Rosa Parks and he meant Coretts Scott King.
I talk about Coretta Scott King's visit to Utah in February 1986 in Second-Class Saints. You should have a peak.
He misspoke in this video but not in his book
Seriously? You’re actually claiming that there isn’t a black person in the world that wouldn’t know the difference?
Even John McCain was against the MLK Day. I think this is a very liberal telling of it all.
A lot of people opposed the MLK Day at first, including John McCain. But by the 1990s most conservatives came onboard except the Utah legislature. As I explain in the book, it took Gordon Hinckley to convince them to change their minds and support the holiday.
Thanks!
Thank you for your support!