Yes it is I lived five decades of being told what to eat, how do dress, what to watch and what to listen to. I took an oath to kill my self in the temple. I was told it was better than I come home in a 🌲 📦 than to come home early from a mission. And finally I was lied to by my leaders regarding the religion.
Other popular mormon tropes: -Choosing a girl who's not a virgin is like choosing a discarded piece of gum. -You're a chosen generation because IF you do what's right you'll usher in the Second Coming. -One day the church will be the last and only institution which will defend the US Constitution. -Lamanites in modern day who joined the church eventually turned white.
This one just makes me mad. I'm getting on my soapbox for this: Granted, most human organizations share at least some cult-like characteristics. But how many have a mission field? Whether and to what extent the Church is a cult is certainly up for discussion. The mission field, however, is unquestionably a high-demand cult experience. For two years, every aspect of my life was controlled by rules laid down by a mission President. I had rules for when to wake up, when to study, when to work, when to eat, with whom I was allowed to eat, and when to go to bed. I had rules governing how I dressed, where I lived, how I could get around, and even what name I was to be known by (hint: it wasn't the name everyone at home called me but my title). I had no privacy to speak of. In addition to having a full-time companion who was never to be outside eye/ear shot from me, leadership had an uncontested right to enter my home at any time to ensure I was keeping missionary rules. I was not allowed to socialize with women, nor was I allowed to take in unapproved media including books, music, or movies. I was allowed to write letters home once per week but told not to share any doubts or discouragement. I was allowed to speak to my family twice per year. And leaving the mission field without the consent of my mission president would have been nearly impossible--even though I served in Tulsa, Oklahoma; a 12 hour drive from my home! To make it even creepier, from the time I first learned to listen in church, this experience was sold to me as the "Best 2 Years of My Life." The mission field is, 100% a cult experience. So let's be honest. If the core of leadership (even membership) of the church has been through this 2-year intense cult experience, how likely is it that those cult-like control tendencies continue into "civilian" church life? You don't just turn those feelings of dependence and blind faith off because now you can choose your own bedtime.
I didn't go on a mission. But I used to believe Mormonism for 47 years. Indoc begins at church and TBM parenting. Primary songs like 'I hope they call me on a mission', sets the precedents of locking in the individual to be governed by strict conservative rules. To consider, or to actually depart from these instructions is taught as being spiritually and eternally fatal. The concept of having doubts and free thinking is viewed as evil. I interpret such strict requirements with after life threats should you not adhere to them as cultish.
@@TheShodan92 which is further elucidated by the research demonstrating the way that Fear shuts down our Reasoning capacity within our minds The fear is the necessary prerequisite to the dismissal of logic.
My experience with the LDS Church began in mid 1970s when I met a young Mormon, and despite me not being a Mormon, we married with the expectation I would eventually join, and frankly I initially expected to sooner rather than later. At first what I knew about the church was the idealized but highly truncated version afforded to investigators...the sanitized missionary discussions, the love you to death fellowshipping during Sunday services, the whole nine yards. Again, this is in the 70s before the internet. Yet, even with the information available things just weren't adding up. I had the temerity to do what investigators as well as members are discouraged to do and researched. When I discovered Smith's polygamy for example (learned about the polyandry much later), it was always, "that's anti-mormon lies." Same with the anachronisms in the BofM. Then there were the lies like the demographic excuses for Young's and subsequent polygamy that said there was an imbalance in the ratio of women to men. The words of wisdom...fat, and unfit mormons telling me I was sinful for drinking coffee. Then there was the idiocy that was almost insulting, like, the wine that Jesus created at the wedding feast wasn't really wine, just unfermented grape juice. Then I discovered Fawn Brodie's book, and I will never forget the angst and disgust from members. That is all satanic lies, you should only read church approved literature. In fact, I quickly observed Mormons are the most "devil made me do it" denomination out there, no small achievement among Christian sects. Having been a bit read on Stalin's Russia I fully realized the implications of this "only read church literature." Then there was the blatant, unapologetic indoctrination of children, the constant, mind numbingly repetitive " I KNOW Joseph Smith is a prophet," and I KNOW this church is true," clearly conflating knowledge with belief or faith. I was struck by parents instructing their small children to repeat this dogma in front of the congregation. The final clincher was when I was in a ward that made the mistake of allowing me, a non member, to attend the Sunday priesthood meetings, and learned things that were not intended for investigators or nonmembers. Over a number of years I came to the conclusion this church indeed has many of the traits of a cult. Maybe not a dangerous one like The People's Temple or Heaven's Gate, but a cult nevertheless. My coming to this conclusion eventually contributed mightily to the break up of my marriage after twenty five years. Devastating at the time, but in hindsight the best thing that happened to me. The information the modern internet now makes available serves to reenforce my conviction that this church is a cult, and to be an active member requires an effort to remain ignorant of and in denial of the facts.
I don't know where you are now in your Spiritual life . But I would like to encourage you to check out Reasons to Believe at Reasons. Org a good scientific and Biblical website that is Christian ,not Mormon. Also Dr.Michael Heiser videos on the O.T and his teaching on Psalm 82 and the trinity in the O.T. These give answers to many Mormon interpretations of the Bible. Glad you didn't join but sad for your lost of the marriage. I have audio tapes of the older temple rituals of the 70's the very first tapes made from Ex-mormons who worked in their book store in Anaheim Ca. So I know what your talking about! Truth isn't afraid of non- truth but deception is always afraid of the truth, this is why cults have secrets. Biola University from where I graduated from also has a family and marriage counseling program in their Graduate Physiology Program if you ever need it. But you sound very good 👍 and you post was spot on.
Couldn’t sympathize with you more on most points. However, Joseph Smith never taught nor practiced polygamy. Brigham Young did, and after murdering Joseph (since Joseph was about to excommunicate him and several others over the practice), he spent years revising church history to pin it all on Joseph as a claim to legitimacy. And also, the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are not actually anachronisms. I’m willing to logically defend both points. But the rest, I agree with.
@@Hala-ataa I'm a member of the church, Joseph Smith Jnr. did practice polygamy shown in D&Cs 132. The D&Cs claim an angel threatened Joseph if he didn't practice polygamy, he didn't want to but he did. Joseph Smith practicing polygamy is in both the church history and the D&Cs.
The Mormon church should be characterized by it’s “fruits.” - Profit and non-profit companies in real estate, and assets totaling an excess of hundreds of Billions which are largely hoarded, not used charitably. - Repeated instances where the institution intervenes in politics, while claiming political neutrality to maintain it’s tax exempt status. - Hard stance to enforce sexual shaming in worthiness interviews on one on one interviews to investigate sexual matters of children and young adults without therapeutic credentials. By these fruits, the church is a sexual shame-promoting, political, and money hoarding organization.
It is that, but it's also millions of people trying really really hard to live good lives and help each other out. It's a community and provides meaningful community to a lot of people. There's a lot of good in that.
@@scottvance74 They are being led to worship false Jesus/false Father , are being taught false gospel which is leading them directly to hell.Nothing to celebrate there.😭
The mission is definitely a cult experience. This can hit the missionary like a 2X4 to the head once they get dropped at the MTC. Their life over the next 18/24 months is controlled by their leaders. Hell, if you serve outside of your home country, the mission office keeps your passport. This they do to keep the missionary from "losing it". Recently, the church may have felt backlash with missionaries struggling out in the field. Perhaps this was why they allow them to call home every week. So a volunteer for the church is given permission to call their family. In what world is this even acceptable? If the only support the missionary has during the mission is the church and its leaders, is it any wonder why, when they return home the missionary continues to rely on the church as their support in all aspects of their lives? The temple endowment is a ritual to lock the member in with loyalty to the group above all else. The endowment is basically the 3 Blue Degrees in Free Masonry. This was very evident with the blood oaths from the pre 90s. The pantomime of slitting one's throat or disembowelment while making promises to the "worshipful master" standing at the alter is quite revealing. The endowment uses several of the same grips that Free Masonry uses. At the veil, the 5 points of fellowship was used in the past to give the key word to be allowed or raised into God's presence. This is similar to ritual of a Free Mason being raised as the fallen Hyrum Abiff. The Masonic symbols of the compass and square are on the garments (underwear) of the endowed member. An apron is worn during the ritual just as Free Masonry. Does the Mormon church use cult tactics to control and keep members? Absolutely! Does it fall under the classification of a cult in modern terms, I would say yes.
Nemo as usual great job in laying out the facts and flaws of the Mormon Church. I have noticed one thing the Mormon church does when it tries to defend its beliefs...it always tries to tie them to the Bible. Odd considering the Mormon church doesn’t consider the Bible reliable.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON your definition can also be applied to a Christian SECT : its the core doctrinal differences that distinguish between a SECT and a Cult. Christianity was a SECT of Judaism not a cult and wasn't viewed as such until Rabbinic Judaism started in the 2nd century AD and got rid of their, Two Powers of Heaven beliefs because that supported what the N.T. writers believed See: Dr.Michael Heiser videos on this subject. Two Powers of Heaven book by Segal ( a Jewish author)is on Amazon .
The Mormons claim the BOM and KJV are compatible. Yet, the two Bibles contradict each other in over 200 verses. The internet and utube have umpteen testimonies and scientific evidences that Joe Smith was a fraud, from DNA of American Indians, to The Book of Abraham, yet the church has 16 million faithful sheeple, blindly following the cult. If the most devastating proof of fraud thinkable came out against Smith, it would not detour the faith of his devoted followers. It is amazing. If only these sheeple would turn that unshakable faith to Jesus Christ alone, believing in 1Cor 15: 1-4 for their salvation, all the angels in heaven would shout.
I appreciate you bringing up the bite model! It is interesting to note Hassan's statement that something can only be measured by how cult like it is. And it is also really interesting to look at how many boxes the church ticks off.
Thank you for your informative and concise evaluation. I appreciate that you are to the point and don't linger on for hours over subjects like some other podcasts. I am a loyal follower so far. Carry on.
"to choose the way of everlasting death..." Well, when you put it that way the choice is clear, I choose death. I certainly don't choose a religion that preaches strict obedience and uses fear and veiled threats to control its members. David seems a nice guy but he certainly has an uphill battle when the leaders prove him wrong at every turn.
@@DoctorZisIN Because according to Mormonism, death is final, and when you die you will go to "spirit prison" (no not the same as pergatory) Your soul will then burn in hell for eternity if you are so judged by Jesus, god, and joseph smith based on your works and belief in the church during life when Jesus comes back to earth as a LIVING being a second time... To get out of this fate you must first be baptized and faithful to the church and whatever it asks of you... with this entry-level of deeds, you will go from "spirit prison" to the lowest level of heaven which is ironically earth-like. Or you can opt for the medium suite of heavens by doing the steps for the first heaven and then getting the priesthood or marrying a priesthood holder and having many babies on top of it.... this afterlife is a lot like earth but better in an oddly vague way... essentially everyone gets free ice cream and a house! Or you can opt for the penthouse suite of heavens by doing what is needed for the first two heavens AND then being sealed and doing temple "work" amongst making pledges with secret handshakes to spread the "gospel" and make oaths to serve the church and basically try to be a perfect human being. And if you can't be perfect then you must be sinning or somehow broken. If you can pull off the last heaven you are granted godhood or goddesshood and will be given a world to rule over with your spouse and are essentially reincarnated as god and therefore given ultimate cosmic powers and a duty to have as many "spirit children" (their words not mine.) as possible to populate your brand new world! Also there's cake! And everything is just perfection for you in another truly vague discription and an "I don't know what it'll be like, but trust me it'll be so damned good you won't want to miss it" sales pitchy kind of way. It's such a pyramid scheme that I'm just tired of thinking about it. But in the end, if you get to one of the 3 heavens you will be resurrected and whole and will be living again but this time for eternity... It's insane to think I once believed this garbage.
@@zethandrews3860 Living the life of mormonism sounds like hell to me. How sad. Jesus brought us the "Gospel" which means "good news". The good news was that there would be no more animal sacrifice, no more legalism, no more "working" to earn salvation. Come to Jesus, believe in His work on the cross, faith alone, and He would give us rest. 1 Cor 15:1-4. Rest? Mormonism, with all it 's legalism, observing the law, the commandments, rules, etc. would drive Satan himself to suicide. Yet, the faithful continue to believe.
I agree that name calling may produce some emotional release for the person saying "cult." The focus for those who want to help those abused by the LDS should be on doctrinal issues, biblical research and translation, historical research, and the exposing of illegal and unethical activities.
I don't worry about being whisked away into a dark room and force-fed green jello. It's those Mormon "Utah Funeral Potatoes" that I worry about! (Thank God I never lived in Utah!)
@@arianae6706 I hear that! LOL Actually, my initial comment wasn't questioning the palatability (flavor) of the dish, which I imagine tasted good. It was just satire over foods and recipes that act like gluten (glue) in cementing together a cultural component (or components) of the cult.
Thank you Nemo for your balanced logic , for your calm and gracious demeanor, for your economy of words. You are able to cut through difficult and pain full issues, and get to the heart of the matter. Well done.❤ I am Exmormon. My experience, and what l have learned about it is bad. You help me examine Mormonism with less trauma. If you leave Mormonism, you will be shunned.😥
I would really like to see you delve more deeply into the BITE Model. I feel like focusing on the vague definition found in the dictionary makes it too easy for members to step away from recognizing what cult behavior really is. The Mormons don't check all of Steve Hassan's boxes, but reading his book was a real eye opener about how I had spent my life being emotionally manipulated into believing they were the "True" church.
I had not thought much on this topic, but I do consider the LDS doctrine non-Christian and that is what I mean by cult. I also think there are commonalities among cult religions; 1) they seek to isolate their members from outside information and non-supportive literature, 2) they dominate the time and activities of members, 3) they demand almost absolute allegiance to the elders/leaders and their teachings, 4) they make every attempt to bind families together and to keep member families in tight social circles (building community within their organization and isolating from "outsiders"), 5) if a member shows/voices any public disloyalty the punishments are drastic - shunning, excommunication, cut the offender off from members, friends, family and their social network. This describes the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Scientologists and even some "Christian" churches which seek to exert power and control over members. I am sorry that cult has a pejorative aspect to it in common usage, but my meaning is more descriptive. Christian doctrine teaches we are sinners saved by the blood sacrifice of Christ, the perfect lamb without spot or blemish (sinless) not by perfecting ourselves for perfection is unattainable. Christian doctrine teaches there is one God-head, and there never was or will be any like unto God. Jesus said that in heaven we are neither married nor given in marriage, though all Christians collectively are the bride of Christ. Cults do not teach these basic truths and they try to put blinders on their members to keep them from seeing outside the walls of their own organizations.
James Taggert, I'll answer your question, "alter the variables." You may know a psychologist Milgram who after WW2 investigated "obedience." He tested situational variables including where people were, his findings reinforced by later studies by other psychologists that "obedience varies significantly across cultures." Social influences and obedience vary across a continuum from "individualism" to "framework". My culture was a shared framework before the 21st century and is now a culture of individualism, including members of the church, members can break whatever rules they wish, where I am some members use foul language and the leaders have no problem with it unless it's done in front of children. There's other variables such as laws, and the laws influence how members of the church behave. My country rejected an offer called ABA by Ole Ivar Lovaas because Lovaas who immigrated to N. America and was strongly influenced by B. F. Skinner's work. What he was offering my country was a BITE model, the very same man founded Gay Conversion Therapy. The U.S. has always been a country that tries to control and dictate the lives of others, my country has always been the opposite that there's laws protecting freedom of choice. To make the whole church the cult being described you'll have to alter laws of countries, perform social change through minority influence, alter standard norms, alter levels of tolerance, alter the perspectives of members, basically make it identical worldwide which you cannot do as variation is an integral part of the human.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON The answer to the question is "make all the variables identical." Each time a leader is released and replaced, what's tolerated will change, tolerance will vary from individual to individual. Location, different places have different social norms including the church, what one place finds immoral another will find tolerable or moral. So what church leaders define as moral will vary. As an example, some will claim divorce is immoral and others will claim there's nothing wrong about it. We can generalise a church's doctrine, but we cannot generalise individual variables globally.
The difference would be that the church would punish you physically should you not “pay up” (your government) with loss of home or jail time. They would celebrate lifestyle behaviors without revealing their consequences (Bud Light commercials, etc) such as alcoholism, STDs , DUIs, abuses of all kinds. They’d teach you love yourself more than others and that choices have no impact on those in your mist/society. - children neglected,/traffic, hate/the judging others publicly, lack charity involvement. (What community involvement or contributions has Nemo made? Would be interested to know his focus in HIS community) They would say not to get involved community leadership or be non supportive (both political parties guilty) They’d say go persecute those who used their God-given American right to vote their conscience (LBGQT desecration of L.A Temple after Prob 8). They’d say eat, drink and be merry for “God” shall spare the rod. If you have a guilty conscience it’s someone else’s doing (Anti LDS) - Put blame onto them, the Church leadership, as you can’t act as your own agent to decide your relationship with Jesus Christ. Note: of all the individuals I’ve known who have disassociated or been critical of Church doctrines, leadership, members or LDS policies/practices rarely do they speak of or even emulate “the proper example” of Christ to follow. I find that quite interesting. They usually make a V-line soon afterwards towards and engage in what we call worldly norms/standards (popular acceptance) and have no distinction from the common philosophies I often hear all around when I walk out the door or on tech devices. Popular culture trends is the standard for what is truth in their minds. Is everyone doing it or should? Notice the exmo influencers are obsessed with the numbers game. “So many people are leaving the Church! The Church is declining.” Although some demographics (young westerners) may be suffering, the Church’s growth and continual influence/charitable contributions throughout the Earth have increased year by year. My ward has had more baptisms of new members (staying) than I’ve ever seen it in my 18 years here. Be careful what you hear vs. eyes seeing the facts (personal experiences) and the Holy Spirit confirming to our spirits truth which is the difference maker in the Lord’s way not worldly teachings that frankly fall short.
I’m so glad that you are able to be clear minded and see the logical fallacies because as a teenager age 17 trying to communicate with my parents they tell me things that get me confused and then later I realize it is just a logical fallacy. It is so hard. I say that all mormons should become lawyers because when push comes to shove they can twist words and ideas around in order to support belief
"I teach [the people] correct principles, and they govern themselves." ---Smith, Jr. Actually, Doug, this is an "urban legend", among the members of the LDS Church in Utah. (I researched it years ago, and there is no written evidence that Smith ever said such a thing.) (Paul H. Dunn concocted faith-promoting 'stories', as well.)
Not only did Joseph Smith say " I do not govern the people. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves" to U.S. Senator Stephen A Douglas, but he did it in the presence of at least two men who recorded the statement. One of them (Erastus Snow) recorded it in his journal. So much for your "urban legend" you urban nitwit.
@@d.j8767 Gosh, I'm not sure DJ I did'nt live in 19th century Illinois, but you did. Why don't you tell all of us what an expert you are on Joseph Smith (sarcasm intended). Nit wit.
@@cindywoodbury385 obviously you haven't studied much about Mormon early history, or you have only swallowed the white washed version spoon fed from the church. I can recommend some books on the subject. Weak reply, but expected considering your previous responses.
I would have liked to see an analysis of "The Law of Consecration", which states that you will give the church everything, including your very life if necessary. Bow your head and say yes. Yeeessss.
Nemo, I have been listening to your presentations for a while now. I commend you on how you provide simple straight forward thoughts on often very controversial issues. Compared to the many other social media commentators on LDS issues, I find yours to be easy to understand, short, concise and in a non-emotional format. A joy to listen to. Of course, your beautiful English accent only adds to your creditability compared to us Utah English speakers who butcher the queen's language.
One difference between a religion and a cult is that religions tolerate and mostly ignore any critics and naysayers, and just move forward with those who have common beliefs. Cults, on the other hand, have very little tolerance for members who question or criticize the organization or its leaders, and will move to punish and penalize offenders in many ways, usually making it as public and painful as possible. Social pressure is a powerful tool, and one that cults depend upon heavily for their status and longevity.
After over 50 years in the LDS church it's very cultish. If you're in it long enough you won't see it, is generational. You know no different. For us it's life. . Just because somebody says the church is a cult doesn't mean it's a negative. Read the definition. I have to say there are many rituals secrets and off the wall stuff that makes us, LDS church a cult. But even as recently as Brother Bentar's talk about male Mormon missions, freedom gone. Mind control has begun. It's a cult. When you lose your freedom to make your own life choices you're in a cult, mind control cult. Thank you Nemo, you are correct. Love your videos.
Thank you for the explanation of the core beliefs of Christianity as it contrasts to legalism, the core of the vast majority of religions and denominations.
This is a though one. The term cult can be stretched and used on so many ways. It also depends on people LDS or not. Everyone sees it different and lives different.
@@arianae6706 it’s so crazy to me how hard it was to leave the church and get my name out. Most of our neighbors are in the ward and they won’t talk to us. Your only god with them if you lds. I can say that knowing how it actually is now. I would never take it back the Bible and the true God has changed my life.
@@arianae6706 there is a lot to me leaving the church. It’s a bit of a story, but God had preserved me enough to see truth. I have had 2 strokes first one at 28 years old. I have had blood clots that filled up both of my lungs. I went through a very difficult divorce that I wasn’t sore I was going to make it out of and had another stroke due to stress. After being at ground zero my best friend had got me to start questioning the church. I started doing research for month and the hard part for me was feeling deceived and it made me angry. I left 2 years ago then my brother left and family has treated us different especially talking to them about the Bible. It was hard at first, but all my hope is in God and his word in the Bible. Nothing hurts anymore.
@@arianae6706 that is hard. I trust God and the Bible that’s about it anymore. I love people regardless because I know It’s God place to judge and he has asked me to love. I talk about God every opportunity I can. Lots of conversations with lds, jw .
one interesting thing ive noticed is that the jackasses at fair mormon or midnight mormons pick on several different youtubers with mockery and asshattery. I have never seen them pick on you. They know that you have standing in any argument that they float. Well done.
A cult is defined by having a leader or belief system that is to not be questioned. Cults are abusive. They follow the chart of coercion. There are cult-like aspects of the church such as being taught to not question the doctrine or teachings. If you are not free to think for yourself in an organization, you’re most likely in a cult.
Love your insights and videos. People like to throw words out there that make the hearers to immediately form an opinion and judge without knowing facts. Cult is one of those words. Yes, the church has many rules. Yes, the church has many not so honest leaders. Yes, the church has lots of money. Yes, the church uses methods of shame, coercion, and such thru convincing members to do what they are told (some call it brainwashing). One big difference that the church is NOT a cult, is the fact there are no locked gates or barricaded compounds to prevent people from leaving. Members are free to come and go. Of course the leaders don't want members to leave. Less members means less money. The leaders want power and control but it's not enforced physically. Only members on missions have various restrictions. Otherwise, folks can leave the church or stay.
I like your approach. Dont loose faith. Errors are human but that doesn't get into God's way. I like that you are exposing the fallacies being used as old school marketingvtactics. I am finding out if i will become the communications and messaging manager for the Church Priesthool and family services committee. If hired I will really pay attention to your feedback. Keep us honest and errors in critical thinking called to attention. Thank you for serving Heavenly Father and Holy Mother in Heaven in this way. Fear not you are serving a critical mission that will have lasting effects for millennium. ✝️🤵😇👰📯🦄💓
A feature of a cult is that it is a high demand religion. In this respect Christianity, as taught by Christ, was more of a cult than modern mormonism is. This is because Christians were required to give up all their possessions. Christ also taught that no-one was worthy of Him who loved their father and mother more. Early Christianity was not family orientated, and believers were required to forsake all including their families... unlike mormonism where families are sealed together forever. Where Mormonism genuinely is more of a cult in the pejorative sense, is the deliberate concealment of information from members. Christianity is in the Bible, where people can interpret and argue about it as much as they like. But mormonism is more complex and it takes quite a while for converts to know what they have actually joined. If they knew what they were getting into many would never have got involved.
@Paul Hadlow Except that in the temple you agree to give all that you have, time, talents and means, all that you have been given, to the COJCOLDS for the building up of the "kingdom," which ends up being the $124B rainy day fund that Jesus needs when he returns. They also say that God (or church in reality) is first, then family all while claiming families are forever, but only if you pay your dues to get into the temple and do your "works" to be worthy. All the time that one puts into "serving" can definitely take away from the family. There are many ways the church divides families. Watch out if someone is LGBTQ. That is one of the most divisive things I've seen within the church.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON you know what, I was actually able to email once a week now that you mention it. I hear it’s even more lax today. Probably because they didn’t like being associated with groups that are that controlling.
When I first began exploring Christianity, I was surprised at how loosely Christians use the word “cult” to apply to any religion that both claims to believe in Jesus Christ but denies specific traditional or orthodox creeds (e.g. the Trinity). Mainstream Christianity’s use of “cult” strikes me as an extraordinarily rigid and aggressive tactic to maintain a certain level of conformity and exclusivness. That said, just because the word “cult” is applied loosely to your religion by some doesn’t mean your religion has no cult characteristics. Others have assessed the LDS Church according to the more objective and evaluative BITE model, and I recommend those videos here on TH-cam.
No, just what historical Christianity has taught from the Apostles. When you change these Core doctrines then you become a CULT ,not just a SECT or denomination.
People forget that benign cults are still cults and not religions. I suppose some cults could be beneficial if the leader/doctrine doesn’t use the inordinate amount of control over the cult members for his/her own nefarious purposes.
Great video. You touched on this, but I'd be curious to know whether you would assert that every religion is a cult. Personally I wouldn't, not only because I'm not familiar with every religion (just as no one I see), but because if any definition of "cult" is either synonymous with or a superset of "religion" then it's not a definition worth using and loses all power as a diagnostic tool (as you elegantly term it). Great video as always my friend!
Thanks! I'm not sure it would loose all diagnostic power, but rather would diagnose the shortcomings that are present in all those religions. However as you rightly said, I too am not familiar with every religion, so couldn't lay that broad a claim.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON fair enough! Some of my reluctance might come from how much fundamentalism we have across the pond here in The Colonies🇺🇲 so I'd want that word to really mean something more. Ultimately I find these discussions inevitably lead to a semantics game, which can still be informative.
Key takeaways: watch "the Burbs" if you haven't. Also, watch it again if you have. Is there a kind of fallacy that's Part vs. Whole? Composition? Perhaps? "Lots of places have drains, like my bathtub, so what if this dank champer oh pain has a drain in the middle of it by these chains. Are you saying that MY washroom is a torture den?" I can kind of get where this fellah is coming from, and I really feel like he's being genuine, and send like my mind of feller. It's not just the charismatic leader, it's the other pieces which, once in symphony, can kiiind of sound like flavor-aid.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON there were a few scenes that the OP used when he was talking about cults. It's an absolutely wonderful movie. My favorite Tom Hanks film hands down.
What you need to ask a Mormon is name one cult that calls itself a cult, most people in a cult believe that they have found the truth and they are so special to be a member of that group
I see the church as somewhere between cult in the serious sense of the word Heaven's Gate etc and faiths that require nothing of people in terms of time and commitment. Same with the modesty standards. We aren't quite as extreme as Muslim women who wear burqa and niqab but not as extreme on the other end where anything goes. Also within the faith there are individuals and families that are more hardline than others, that use the fear of God to control rather than the love of God to free.
Red Flag: Obey the current prophet. Do not question. As per LDS leaders in conference talks, don't pray to God for confirmation that what a current prophet and apostle said is true and correct. Just obey.
The church is true and all the blessings. i am very grateful for the church they saved my life and put me on the path of redemption even after all my sins since my baptism
I can’t remember where, but I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that intelligent people are actually more likely to fall for brainwashing techniques and the like.
Great upload! And I am thrilled that you used Steve Hassan’s recently updated edition for its 30th Anniversary, “Freedom of Mind.” In the book, he says because the word cult is so charged, he labels any religion, Relatioship, political ideologies, etc. as imposing “undo influence.”
How about the secret handshakes, otherwise known as ( signs & tokens) so you can have access to Heaven… well maybe their heaven, to pass through the veil… what bat crap craziness was I being taught!
JS ripped this off from Freemasonry and is it a wonder in the early 1800’s why JS and his new religion were met with much suspicion if not downright hostility?
Mormons also have a taught persecution complex. The Missouri extermination order used as a way to cause them.to see anyone who disagrees as a persecutor.
Hi Nemo, thanks to Peter and yourself I know more than I ever wanted to about the LDS. There are any number of ways I’ve been enlightened by your discussions.just listened to you on “21st century saints “ as well. Btw the link to your TH-cam under their podcast is somehow incorrect. For this and other queries there’s no easy way to message you. No doubt providing an email is out of the question.
What does he mean ‘we don’t threaten you with Hell if you leave?’ Or is my understanding or apostates being sent to outer darkness missing something? Wasn’t there that image from the Ensign (or whatever it’s called now) with the shoots and ladder image sending apostates directly there?
Oh they are about to change out that doctrine anyway, all apostates will now have to man the ice cream trucks in lower heavens ( terrestrial and telestial) till they get certified for the celestial.
What he's saying is accurate because LDS doctrine still gives those who leave an *eternity* to return to the faith. No other Christian faith-tradition does this.
Is the B.I.T.E model accepted among the sociological and psychological professions as the way to diagnose cultism(in the contemporary use of the word)? Or is it a very well written dissertation that is in no way authoritative? If we appeal to the B.I.T.E. model as our method for assessment, what are we assuming or presupposing? Are we assuming thar this model was made independently of religious prejudice? Could it be that Steve Hassan presupposed or relabeled certain religions as cults and then developed a model to justify his prejudices? In fact, that is the method he used. The cults, like Maoist China, were identified first, the BITE model came to describe their methods later. Many methods listed are already utilized by both extreme and moderate societies. For me the question is, but when do humans justify their uses? Mililtary taining is seen as a necessity to the national security of nearly all governments. The typical methods utilized by even western nations in the training of their force resemble the BITE model quite completely. Why are we ok with this? Is it because we benefit as a society from it? I only use this example to show that it really seems to be the ideals and intentions of the institution that utilizes some methods that must align with public ethics and morality to be accepted rather than the use of the methods themselves. No doubt people have been, are, and will be harmed by many different forms of religious zealotry that most can wasily accept as cult like behavior.
Let’s look at the direct definition of the word “cult” and then the direct detention of “sinister” and then we can debate whether or not the church has “sinister” practices. I believe if the church has “sinister” practices then we can safely conclude that it is a cult. But what part of the practices seem harmful or evil?
This is an interesting perspective. I find a lot of the argument for or against the church being a cult comes down to definitions. Are you saying that to you the definition of sinister is harmful or evil? does it have to be both? Because evil is more subjective than harm, so my preference for real world diagnostics personally would be harm, as it is easier to measure.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON yeah it emphasizes on harming people or something of that nature but I liked your definition of a cult. It has such a negative connotation but you somehow made it seem less so. I am LDS and find your videos educational and interesting
A lot of people don't use the term "cult," probably for reasons discussed here. Instead, they might use a more precise term, such as "high-demand/high-control religion" or "new religious movement." A high-demand/high-control religion is defined as "a faith community that requires obedience; discourages its members from questioning its rules, principles, and practices; expects subservience and loyalty; discourages trusting relationships outside the group; perpetuates the notion that those within the group are right and superior to those outside of it; promotes extreme or polarizing beliefs; and expects its members to suppress their authentic selves in exchange for the sense of belonging and security the group offers. Even if you haven’t been part of a religion that fits this profile, you’ve probably encountered groups characterized by some of these elements, whether in the form of a family system, a couple struggling with domestic violence, or a political group."
“If it looks like a snake, sounds like a snake, and moves like a snake.. it’s a snake. Except for when you’re making valid comparisons between legitimate harmful cults and our church.. otherwise, it’s not a snake. Because I say so” 😂
I think the thing that rings cult to me about the LDS church is how anti intellectual they appear to be. From what I’ve heard from a lot of former members and even from clips of church leaders is that you are taught to doubt your doubts, doubt everything that runs contrary to what the church teaches you and try get your information from the cult. Even the more modern youth oriented apologists you can see constantly trying to employ subtle half truths and logical fallacies to cover their tracks and try dissuade members from questioning themselves. I’m not sure if it’s also true but I’ve heard from some ex Mormons that the idea of the Holy Spirit and praying being the only way to confirm your beliefs is also quite dubious to me. There are a lot of other weird things about the church but this is just one of them that rings some red flags to me.
@@arianae6706 yeah there are so many, the ex Mormon videos of people talking about things they used to believe about sin and spirits and how if you leave the church you can literally never be truly happy are very problematic. I agree tho in these people’s minds if you even mention the word cult since it is such a loaded term it would scare anyone away from discussing but you can very easily point out the elements of their beliefs that are problematic and unhealthy to think. Even as an ex Christian I still feel shame for things that rationally I know aren’t harmful or evil but I just hate myself for it still, I imagine for ex Mormons given how stringent their belief system’s rules are it’s even more severe.
David doesn’t want to talk, hence they block any non Mormon questions on their channel. It’s just for reinforcement of the church not actual answers to questions. You should ask a hard question on his channel, no answer and blocking you is the solution!
@@TrevorThatBandanaGuy Sorry, but they cannot take the truth that they are defending a counterfeit church : I like counterfeit better than cult because it has the idea of deception and hiding of the truth by lying. Counterfeit is just a nicer way of saying cult! I will say David was the person l liked best because he knows the problems of Mormonism even if he is following the party line because of his job: someday he will wake up!
As someone who’s been on both sides of that kind of conversation, I can say that David (and Mormons in general) will only be open to that kind of discussion when a certain point is reached in doubting and exploring. Even trying to have that talk before then is not only futile, but might end up doing more harm than good overall.
Golly gee, it sure is beautiful seeing all the "Former LDS" moving on from their "cult-related trauma" that they never need stand on the Name, skills, wisdom, and knowledge they inherited from the church. The ego is a fascinating beast; surely nothing of merit can be gleaned from a people of such stubborn resilience?...by all logic they should have been destroyed several times over if they did not draw from the memory of truth and long-suffering. Who can look about the time we are now in and not see use of Lehi's Dream, Wars and rumors of Wars in "America" before Columbus, Proclamation to the World, Word of Wisdom, Porter Rockwell, John Browning, Ezra T. Benson (on The Constitution), Executive Order 44, etc. As for me; i have been equally guilty and blinded but i also now behold that great and spacious building everytime i pick up this phone...i choose to put my shoulder to the wheel, for not doing so hath made me weary.
You can choose to not follow the principles they teach you. It's totally your choice! Except then you can't enter the temple to see your family member get married if you don't follow the rules and pay money. Yeah, totally a fair, uncoerced choice. /S
Academic critics have always questioned the legitimacy of Smith as a prophet as well as the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Criticism has expanded to include claims of historical revisionism.
That Bill Gates reference hasn't aged well now that he is going through a divorce due to infidelity and his ties to Jeffrey Epstein . S.U is implying that because Bill carries himself as a harmless goofball that is what he is most likely to be. When examining parallels between persons or organizations, each item should be valued on its individual merits.
When I call anything a cult, it meets from official policy, teaching, and doctrines and comparing it to the BITE model, and the more it meets, then it it’s higher on the spectrum of cults. Yes, there is a certain views of “cult” that people want to distance themselves from, like Jonestown, and Heavens Gate, which David mentions. There’s similarly between me (independent evangelical Christian) and a reformed baptist, but the more something meets the BITE model, then the more it is a cult then something comparing something like Non-denominational church is rural Australia, or SDA, or LDS or even political Groups. When I try to explain to a former LDS friend, they thought it was an attack on them as a person, when they have a better “Education” when I use very specific and clear terms. And just to David’s point, not once did a member give me cookies, when I left. Also, when I left Nemo, I didn’t have to send a notarised letter by a lawyer, or had to go to meetings, but I did include in the email addresses that I sent my resigning letter to, was my bishop and stake president. Clearly stating there’s no way I can stay a member after taking advice of church leaders and studying the faith and “doubting my doubts”.
David is a nice guy, and the most informed and nuanced of the who lot that work for Saints Unscripted (which is funded by the More Good Foundation - partial funding by the Mormon church). I have informed him of some inadvertent errors that he has made in his articles in the past and he has been gracious enough to correct/update them. He really seems like he's trying to do the best that he can given the information he has available.
@@scottvance74 I pointed out somethings that was wrong about church history but that would cause a new video and of course he refused because it would really look bad and conflict with the Mormon narrative of the Apostasy of the Christian churches.
Take a look at Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind Resource Center and his BITE Model. No matter how you look at it, LDS Church = undue influence = cult. Posted this before you got to that part. Agree most organized religions use these tactics. Even Christ taught principles, not rules and railed against the Pharisees for getting too strict. Key is to think for yourselves while still being guided by principles.
That comment... “We might bring you some cookies”... Is disgusting, it is so indicative of the way that so many Mormon people view and treat those who have left the church... my sister-in-law lamented to me once that she was “going to be so sad that I wouldn't be in the Celestial Kingdom with her”... Presuming I suppose that being Mormon was a sure way to get there... DISGUSTING!!!!!
@@Themanyfacesofego Oh, she absolutely was sincere... but that is what is so sad... I really believe it may be just the opposite... But she can’t be open to that because of her HEAVY Mormon programing💦
Whether I identify "cult" as an fact or insult depends how the term is used. I know some people are sensitive about how people describe their beliefs, if someone uses it to intend to hurt someone's feelings it's an insult. If a discussion links to characteristics of a cult, I see nothing wrong with calling a church a cult. If the topic has no association with cults and someone just goes "you're a cult" it's clearly being used as an insult. They are having a social conversation about The Book of Mormon and how they believe it was produced. A: "I believe it was translated through the power of God." B: "You're a cult." Would anyone respond like "B" or would they share their views and gradually move towards talking about cults as the social conversation moves on, like if they begin talking about church beliefs and practices? "You're a cult." That being the first and only thing a person says is rather lame, if I said that to someone, I would at least say why I view it as a cult. This talk about cults also raises an important issue for anyone who calls groups cults. "Normality is a Cult" We find anyone who does not appear "normal" (whatever is normal) find themselves being abused. Politics and economics are determined by "normal", and look at the turmoil and poverty normality has done to the world.
You are free to question anything in the LDS church just so long as you arrive at the approved answers.
Absolutely, otherwise there is trouble!
Thus, Mormonism is a cult.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON l totally agree!
Definitely
You're free to believe whatever you want as long as you don't publicly denounce the church's beliefs. Huge difference.
Yes it is
I lived five decades of being told what to eat, how do dress, what to watch and what to listen to.
I took an oath to kill my self in the temple.
I was told it was better than I come home in a 🌲 📦 than to come home early from a mission.
And finally I was lied to by my leaders regarding the religion.
Other popular mormon tropes:
-Choosing a girl who's not a virgin is like choosing a discarded piece of gum.
-You're a chosen generation because IF you do what's right you'll usher in the Second Coming.
-One day the church will be the last and only institution which will defend the US Constitution.
-Lamanites in modern day who joined the church eventually turned white.
My favorite saying, was, “Flirt to Convert”
@@DoctorZisIN White and DELIGHTSOME 🤩
@@erin5896 I'm was a convert and didn't get any of that. :(
How did second anoiting go with you?
This one just makes me mad. I'm getting on my soapbox for this:
Granted, most human organizations share at least some cult-like characteristics. But how many have a mission field?
Whether and to what extent the Church is a cult is certainly up for discussion. The mission field, however, is unquestionably a high-demand cult experience. For two years, every aspect of my life was controlled by rules laid down by a mission President. I had rules for when to wake up, when to study, when to work, when to eat, with whom I was allowed to eat, and when to go to bed. I had rules governing how I dressed, where I lived, how I could get around, and even what name I was to be known by (hint: it wasn't the name everyone at home called me but my title).
I had no privacy to speak of. In addition to having a full-time companion who was never to be outside eye/ear shot from me, leadership had an uncontested right to enter my home at any time to ensure I was keeping missionary rules. I was not allowed to socialize with women, nor was I allowed to take in unapproved media including books, music, or movies. I was allowed to write letters home once per week but told not to share any doubts or discouragement. I was allowed to speak to my family twice per year.
And leaving the mission field without the consent of my mission president would have been nearly impossible--even though I served in Tulsa, Oklahoma; a 12 hour drive from my home!
To make it even creepier, from the time I first learned to listen in church, this experience was sold to me as the "Best 2 Years of My Life."
The mission field is, 100% a cult experience.
So let's be honest. If the core of leadership (even membership) of the church has been through this 2-year intense cult experience, how likely is it that those cult-like control tendencies continue into "civilian" church life? You don't just turn those feelings of dependence and blind faith off because now you can choose your own bedtime.
I didn't go on a mission. But I used to believe Mormonism for 47 years.
Indoc begins at church and TBM parenting. Primary songs like 'I hope they call me on a mission', sets the precedents of locking in the individual to be governed by strict conservative rules.
To consider, or to actually depart from these instructions is taught as being spiritually and eternally fatal. The concept of having doubts and free thinking is viewed as evil.
I interpret such strict requirements with after life threats should you not adhere to them as cultish.
@@TheShodan92 which is further elucidated by the research demonstrating the way that Fear shuts down our Reasoning capacity within our minds
The fear is the necessary prerequisite to the dismissal of logic.
100% yes!
My experience with the LDS Church began in mid 1970s when I met a young Mormon, and despite me not being a Mormon, we married with the expectation I would eventually join, and frankly I initially expected to sooner rather than later. At first what I knew about the church was the idealized but highly truncated version afforded to investigators...the sanitized missionary discussions, the love you to death fellowshipping during Sunday services, the whole nine yards. Again, this is in the 70s before the internet. Yet, even with the information available things just weren't adding up. I had the temerity to do what investigators as well as members are discouraged to do and researched. When I discovered Smith's polygamy for example (learned about the polyandry much later), it was always, "that's anti-mormon lies." Same with the anachronisms in the BofM. Then there were the lies like the demographic excuses for Young's and subsequent polygamy that said there was an imbalance in the ratio of women to men. The words of wisdom...fat, and unfit mormons telling me I was sinful for drinking coffee. Then there was the idiocy that was almost insulting, like, the wine that Jesus created at the wedding feast wasn't really wine, just unfermented grape juice. Then I discovered Fawn Brodie's book, and I will never forget the angst and disgust from members. That is all satanic lies, you should only read church approved literature. In fact, I quickly observed Mormons are the most "devil made me do it" denomination out there, no small achievement among Christian sects. Having been a bit read on Stalin's Russia I fully realized the implications of this "only read church literature." Then there was the blatant, unapologetic indoctrination of children, the constant, mind numbingly repetitive " I KNOW Joseph Smith is a prophet," and I KNOW this church is true," clearly conflating knowledge with belief or faith. I was struck by parents instructing their small children to repeat this dogma in front of the congregation. The final clincher was when I was in a ward that made the mistake of allowing me, a non member, to attend the Sunday priesthood meetings, and learned things that were not intended for investigators or nonmembers. Over a number of years I came to the conclusion this church indeed has many of the traits of a cult. Maybe not a dangerous one like The People's Temple or Heaven's Gate, but a cult nevertheless. My coming to this conclusion eventually contributed mightily to the break up of my marriage after twenty five years. Devastating at the time, but in hindsight the best thing that happened to me. The information the modern internet now makes available serves to reenforce my conviction that this church is a cult, and to be an active member requires an effort to remain ignorant of and in denial of the facts.
I don't know where you are now in your Spiritual life .
But I would like to encourage you to check out Reasons to Believe at Reasons. Org a good scientific and Biblical website that is Christian ,not Mormon.
Also Dr.Michael Heiser videos on the O.T and his teaching on Psalm 82 and the trinity in the O.T.
These give answers to many Mormon interpretations of the Bible.
Glad you didn't join but sad for your lost of the marriage.
I have audio tapes of the older temple rituals of the 70's the very first tapes made from Ex-mormons who worked in their book store in Anaheim Ca.
So I know what your talking about!
Truth isn't afraid of non- truth but deception is always afraid of the truth, this is why cults have secrets.
Biola University from where I graduated from also has a family and marriage counseling program in their Graduate Physiology Program if you ever need it.
But you sound very good 👍 and you post was spot on.
@zach Garver: AMEN, Brother!
Couldn’t sympathize with you more on most points. However, Joseph Smith never taught nor practiced polygamy. Brigham Young did, and after murdering Joseph (since Joseph was about to excommunicate him and several others over the practice), he spent years revising church history to pin it all on Joseph as a claim to legitimacy.
And also, the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon are not actually anachronisms. I’m willing to logically defend both points. But the rest, I agree with.
It's just more subtle in the church than those other cults.
@@Hala-ataa
I'm a member of the church, Joseph Smith Jnr. did practice polygamy shown in D&Cs 132.
The D&Cs claim an angel threatened Joseph if he didn't practice polygamy, he didn't want to but he did.
Joseph Smith practicing polygamy is in both the church history and the D&Cs.
I've always known that it's a cult, but I never wanted to admit it.
Your content is so rational and well-done. Thanks for this!
You're very welcome!
A well thought out debate about the LDS Church. Keep the discussion going, Nemo. Thank you
You're welcome, cheers for the kind feedback!
The Mormon church should be characterized by it’s “fruits.”
- Profit and non-profit companies in real estate, and assets totaling an excess of hundreds of Billions which are largely hoarded, not used charitably.
- Repeated instances where the institution intervenes in politics, while claiming political neutrality to maintain it’s tax exempt status.
- Hard stance to enforce sexual shaming in worthiness interviews on one on one interviews to investigate sexual matters of children and young adults without therapeutic credentials.
By these fruits, the church is a sexual shame-promoting, political, and money hoarding organization.
Well, when you put it that way...
Excellent points Kenneth, Thank you
It is that, but it's also millions of people trying really really hard to live good lives and help each other out. It's a community and provides meaningful community to a lot of people. There's a lot of good in that.
Oh ya.... Joe Smith is a fraud! that is the truth! It all falls with JS! Let common sense rule. Expose this religion!!
@@scottvance74 They are being led to worship false Jesus/false Father , are being taught false gospel which is leading them directly to hell.Nothing to celebrate there.😭
The mission is definitely a cult experience. This can hit the missionary like a 2X4 to the head once they get dropped at the MTC. Their life over the next 18/24 months is controlled by their leaders. Hell, if you serve outside of your home country, the mission office keeps your passport. This they do to keep the missionary from "losing it". Recently, the church may have felt backlash with missionaries struggling out in the field. Perhaps this was why they allow them to call home every week. So a volunteer for the church is given permission to call their family. In what world is this even acceptable? If the only support the missionary has during the mission is the church and its leaders, is it any wonder why, when they return home the missionary continues to rely on the church as their support in all aspects of their lives?
The temple endowment is a ritual to lock the member in with loyalty to the group above all else. The endowment is basically the 3 Blue Degrees in Free Masonry. This was very evident with the blood oaths from the pre 90s. The pantomime of slitting one's throat or disembowelment while making promises to the "worshipful master" standing at the alter is quite revealing. The endowment uses several of the same grips that Free Masonry uses. At the veil, the 5 points of fellowship was used in the past to give the key word to be allowed or raised into God's presence. This is similar to ritual of a Free Mason being raised as the fallen Hyrum Abiff. The Masonic symbols of the compass and square are on the garments (underwear) of the endowed member. An apron is worn during the ritual just as Free Masonry. Does the Mormon church use cult tactics to control and keep members? Absolutely! Does it fall under the classification of a cult in modern terms, I would say yes.
Nemo as usual great job in laying out the facts and flaws of the Mormon Church. I have noticed one thing the Mormon church does when it tries to defend its beliefs...it always tries to tie them to the Bible. Odd considering the Mormon church doesn’t consider the Bible reliable.
It's reliable when it suits, the 8th article of faith is the perfect justification for cherry picking the bible!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON All Christian cults cherry pick the Bible: wherever they are on the line of control of their members .
@@NEMOTHEMORMON your definition can also be applied to a Christian SECT : its the core doctrinal differences that distinguish between a SECT and a Cult.
Christianity was a SECT of Judaism not a cult and wasn't viewed as such until Rabbinic Judaism started in the 2nd century AD and got rid of their, Two Powers of Heaven beliefs because that supported what the N.T. writers believed
See: Dr.Michael Heiser videos on this subject. Two Powers of Heaven book by Segal ( a Jewish author)is on Amazon .
The Mormons claim the BOM and KJV are compatible. Yet, the two Bibles contradict each other in over 200 verses. The internet and utube have umpteen testimonies and scientific evidences that Joe Smith was a fraud, from DNA of American Indians, to The Book of Abraham, yet the church has 16 million faithful sheeple, blindly following the cult.
If the most devastating proof of fraud thinkable came out against Smith, it would not detour the faith of his devoted followers.
It is amazing. If only these sheeple would turn that unshakable faith to Jesus Christ alone, believing in 1Cor 15: 1-4 for their salvation, all the angels in heaven would shout.
I appreciate you bringing up the bite model! It is interesting to note Hassan's statement that something can only be measured by how cult like it is. And it is also really interesting to look at how many boxes the church ticks off.
Cheers!
Great video! I like the “horse” on the shelf behind you ;)
Me too! Best present I ever got from the church!
Thank you for your informative and concise evaluation. I appreciate that you are to the point and don't linger on for hours over subjects like some other podcasts. I am a loyal follower so far. Carry on.
My pleasure!
"to choose the way of everlasting death..." Well, when you put it that way the choice is clear, I choose death. I certainly don't choose a religion that preaches strict obedience and uses fear and veiled threats to control its members. David seems a nice guy but he certainly has an uphill battle when the leaders prove him wrong at every turn.
I know what you mean, I wouldn't want to be an LDS apologist right now!
How would death not be everlasting?
@@DoctorZisIN Because according to Mormonism, death is final, and when you die you will go to "spirit prison" (no not the same as pergatory)
Your soul will then burn in hell for eternity if you are so judged by Jesus, god, and joseph smith based on your works and belief in the church during life when Jesus comes back to earth as a LIVING being a second time...
To get out of this fate you must first be baptized and faithful to the church and whatever it asks of you... with this entry-level of deeds, you will go from "spirit prison" to the lowest level of heaven which is ironically earth-like.
Or you can opt for the medium suite of heavens by doing the steps for the first heaven and then getting the priesthood or marrying a priesthood holder and having many babies on top of it.... this afterlife is a lot like earth but better in an oddly vague way... essentially everyone gets free ice cream and a house!
Or you can opt for the penthouse suite of heavens by doing what is needed for the first two heavens AND then being sealed and doing temple "work" amongst making pledges with secret handshakes to spread the "gospel" and make oaths to serve the church and basically try to be a perfect human being. And if you can't be perfect then you must be sinning or somehow broken.
If you can pull off the last heaven you are granted godhood or goddesshood and will be given a world to rule over with your spouse and are essentially reincarnated as god and therefore given ultimate cosmic powers and a duty to have as many "spirit children" (their words not mine.) as possible to populate your brand new world! Also there's cake! And everything is just perfection for you in another truly vague discription and an "I don't know what it'll be like, but trust me it'll be so damned good you won't want to miss it" sales pitchy kind of way.
It's such a pyramid scheme that I'm just tired of thinking about it. But in the end, if you get to one of the 3 heavens you will be resurrected and whole and will be living again but this time for eternity...
It's insane to think I once believed this garbage.
@@zethandrews3860 Living the life of mormonism sounds like hell to me. How sad. Jesus brought us the "Gospel" which means "good news".
The good news was that there would be no more animal sacrifice, no more legalism, no more "working" to earn salvation. Come to Jesus, believe in His work on the cross, faith alone, and He would give us rest. 1 Cor 15:1-4.
Rest? Mormonism, with all it 's legalism, observing the law, the commandments, rules, etc. would drive Satan himself to suicide. Yet, the faithful continue to believe.
YES! The comment about needing an attorney to leave the LDS religion, that's the icing on the cake. I'm grateful for your objective view points.
Cheers!
Nemo , You are breath of fresh air!! Thanks for your logic, calm demeanor, and graciousness. We the many, are blessed.
My pleasure, thanks for watching!
I agree that name calling may produce some emotional release for the person saying "cult." The focus for those who want to help those abused by the LDS should be on doctrinal issues, biblical research and translation, historical research, and the exposing of illegal and unethical activities.
Absolutely!
Intelligent, thoughtful, reasonable, simple, respectful. Really enjoy your videos.
I appreciate that!
Nemo. Always fair and balanced. A modern Mormon treasure.
Cheers for that!
Excellent analysis. My critical thinking & argumentation professor would be proud.
Cheers!
I deeply appreciate your clear and critical thoughts.
Thank you!
I don't worry about being whisked away into a dark room and force-fed green jello.
It's those Mormon "Utah Funeral Potatoes" that I worry about!
(Thank God I never lived in Utah!)
One day, I need to experience funeral potatoes
Funeral potatoes are good eating.
@@arianae6706
Is it "potatoes au gratin"
(because something in the casket smells rotten)?
@@arianae6706
I hear that! LOL
Actually, my initial comment wasn't questioning the palatability (flavor) of the dish, which I imagine tasted good.
It was just satire over foods and recipes that act like gluten (glue) in cementing together a cultural component (or components) of the cult.
@@arianae6706
Delicious recipe!
Who knew that the secret ingredient would be corn flakes?! LOL
😆
Dude, I hope you are using any revenue from this channel to fund a legal education, because you would make a damn fine lawyer :)
I'm not sure I would, but if I ever want a career change from medicine that's a possibility I suppose!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON What do you do in medicine?
Thank you Nemo for your balanced logic , for your calm and gracious demeanor, for your economy of words. You are able to cut through difficult and pain full issues, and get to the heart of the matter. Well done.❤
I am Exmormon. My experience, and what l have learned about it is bad. You help me examine Mormonism with less trauma.
If you leave Mormonism, you will be shunned.😥
I really appreciate your use of logic vs. fallacies, Nemo!
I appreciate that!
Getting away from the church sure felt like escaping a cult...
I would really like to see you delve more deeply into the BITE Model. I feel like focusing on the vague definition found in the dictionary makes it too easy for members to step away from recognizing what cult behavior really is. The Mormons don't check all of Steve Hassan's boxes, but reading his book was a real eye opener about how I had spent my life being emotionally manipulated into believing they were the "True" church.
You won't have to wait too long!
I had not thought much on this topic, but I do consider the LDS doctrine non-Christian and that is what I mean by cult. I also think there are commonalities among cult religions; 1) they seek to isolate their members from outside information and non-supportive literature, 2) they dominate the time and activities of members, 3) they demand almost absolute allegiance to the elders/leaders and their teachings, 4) they make every attempt to bind families together and to keep member families in tight social circles (building community within their organization and isolating from "outsiders"), 5) if a member shows/voices any public disloyalty the punishments are drastic - shunning, excommunication, cut the offender off from members, friends, family and their social network. This describes the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Scientologists and even some "Christian" churches which seek to exert power and control over members. I am sorry that cult has a pejorative aspect to it in common usage, but my meaning is more descriptive. Christian doctrine teaches we are sinners saved by the blood sacrifice of Christ, the perfect lamb without spot or blemish (sinless) not by perfecting ourselves for perfection is unattainable. Christian doctrine teaches there is one God-head, and there never was or will be any like unto God. Jesus said that in heaven we are neither married nor given in marriage, though all Christians collectively are the bride of Christ. Cults do not teach these basic truths and they try to put blinders on their members to keep them from seeing outside the walls of their own organizations.
I ended a debate by asking a true believer "What would the church have to do different in order to be a cult?"
Oooft, that'd be a tricky one!
James Taggert,
I'll answer your question, "alter the variables."
You may know a psychologist Milgram who after WW2 investigated "obedience."
He tested situational variables including where people were, his findings reinforced by later studies by other psychologists that "obedience varies significantly across cultures."
Social influences and obedience vary across a continuum from "individualism" to "framework".
My culture was a shared framework before the 21st century and is now a culture of individualism, including members of the church, members can break whatever rules they wish, where I am some members use foul language and the leaders have no problem with it unless it's done in front of children.
There's other variables such as laws, and the laws influence how members of the church behave. My country rejected an offer called ABA by Ole Ivar Lovaas because Lovaas who immigrated to N. America and was strongly influenced by B. F. Skinner's work. What he was offering my country was a BITE model, the very same man founded Gay Conversion Therapy.
The U.S. has always been a country that tries to control and dictate the lives of others, my country has always been the opposite that there's laws protecting freedom of choice.
To make the whole church the cult being described you'll have to alter laws of countries, perform social change through minority influence, alter standard norms, alter levels of tolerance, alter the perspectives of members, basically make it identical worldwide which you cannot do as variation is an integral part of the human.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON
The answer to the question is "make all the variables identical."
Each time a leader is released and replaced, what's tolerated will change, tolerance will vary from individual to individual.
Location, different places have different social norms including the church, what one place finds immoral another will find tolerable or moral. So what church leaders define as moral will vary.
As an example, some will claim divorce is immoral and others will claim there's nothing wrong about it.
We can generalise a church's doctrine, but we cannot generalise individual variables globally.
The difference would be that the church would punish you physically should you not “pay up” (your government) with loss of home or jail time. They would celebrate lifestyle behaviors without revealing their consequences (Bud Light commercials, etc) such as alcoholism, STDs , DUIs, abuses of all kinds. They’d teach you love yourself more than others and that choices have no impact on those in your mist/society. - children neglected,/traffic, hate/the judging others publicly, lack charity involvement. (What community involvement or contributions has Nemo made? Would be interested to know his focus in HIS community) They would say not to get involved community leadership or be non supportive (both political parties guilty) They’d say go persecute those who used their God-given American right to vote their conscience (LBGQT desecration of L.A Temple after Prob 8). They’d say eat, drink and be merry for “God” shall spare the rod. If you have a guilty conscience it’s someone else’s doing (Anti LDS) - Put blame onto them, the Church leadership, as you can’t act as your own agent to decide your relationship with Jesus Christ.
Note: of all the individuals I’ve known who have disassociated or been critical of Church doctrines, leadership, members or LDS policies/practices rarely do they speak of or even emulate “the proper example” of Christ to follow. I find that quite interesting. They usually make a V-line soon afterwards towards and engage in what we call worldly norms/standards (popular acceptance) and have no distinction from the common philosophies I often hear all around when I walk out the door or on tech devices. Popular culture trends is the standard for what is truth in their minds. Is everyone doing it or should?
Notice the exmo influencers are obsessed with the numbers game. “So many people are leaving the Church! The Church is declining.”
Although some demographics (young westerners) may be suffering, the Church’s growth and continual influence/charitable contributions throughout the Earth have increased year by year. My ward has had more baptisms of new members (staying) than I’ve ever seen it in my 18 years here. Be careful what you hear vs. eyes seeing the facts (personal experiences) and the Holy Spirit confirming to our spirits truth which is the difference maker in the Lord’s way not worldly teachings that frankly fall short.
I’m so glad that you are able to be clear minded and see the logical fallacies because as a teenager age 17 trying to communicate with my parents they tell me things that get me confused and then later I realize it is just a logical fallacy. It is so hard. I say that all mormons should become lawyers because when push comes to shove they can twist words and ideas around in order to support belief
"I teach [the people] correct principles, and they govern themselves." ---Smith, Jr.
Actually, Doug, this is an "urban legend", among the members of the LDS Church in Utah.
(I researched it years ago, and there is no written evidence that Smith ever said such a thing.)
(Paul H. Dunn concocted faith-promoting 'stories', as well.)
Thanks for that!
Not only did Joseph Smith say " I do not govern the people. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves" to U.S. Senator Stephen A Douglas, but he did it in the presence of at least two men who recorded the statement. One of them (Erastus Snow) recorded it in his journal. So much for your "urban legend" you urban nitwit.
As long as the member followed Joseph's rules....right?
@@d.j8767 Gosh, I'm not sure DJ I did'nt live in 19th century Illinois, but you did. Why don't you tell all of us what an expert you are on Joseph Smith (sarcasm intended). Nit wit.
@@cindywoodbury385 obviously you haven't studied much about Mormon early history, or you have only swallowed the white washed version spoon fed from the church. I can recommend some books on the subject. Weak reply, but expected considering your previous responses.
You're brilliant, my friend...plain and simple
Thank you very much!
Wow! Very nice rational breakdown. This is great! Love this!
Thank you kindly!
I would have liked to see an analysis of "The Law of Consecration", which states that you will give the church everything, including your very life if necessary. Bow your head and say yes. Yeeessss.
Yes, but if that means Mormons are a cult, communism is also a cult /s. More appeals to popularity incoming lol
I hate that one. I thought it was interesting that it's the last thing in the endowment ceremony. 🤔
Wow Saints Unscripted has gone downhill.
Nemo, I have been listening to your presentations for a while now. I commend you on how you provide simple straight forward thoughts on often very controversial issues. Compared to the many other social media commentators on LDS issues, I find yours to be easy to understand, short, concise and in a non-emotional format. A joy to listen to. Of course, your beautiful English accent only adds to your creditability compared to us Utah English speakers who butcher the queen's language.
One difference between a religion and a cult is that religions tolerate and mostly ignore any critics and naysayers, and just move forward with those who have common beliefs. Cults, on the other hand, have very little tolerance for members who question or criticize the organization or its leaders, and will move to punish and penalize offenders in many ways, usually making it as public and painful as possible. Social pressure is a powerful tool, and one that cults depend upon heavily for their status and longevity.
Great work as always, love your concise and accurate language. Till next time my friend!
Thank you! Cheers!
After over 50 years in the LDS church it's very cultish. If you're in it long enough you won't see it, is generational. You know no different. For us it's life. . Just because somebody says the church is a cult doesn't mean it's a negative. Read the definition. I have to say there are many rituals secrets and off the wall stuff that makes us, LDS church a cult. But even as recently as Brother Bentar's talk about male Mormon missions, freedom gone. Mind control has begun. It's a cult. When you lose your freedom to make your own life choices you're in a cult, mind control cult. Thank you Nemo, you are correct. Love your videos.
Thank you for the explanation of the core beliefs of Christianity as it contrasts to legalism, the core of the vast majority of religions and denominations.
Saw you on Mormonism Live. Subscribed as soon as I found you. Great content!!!
Welcome aboard!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON thank you! I’ve watched several videos now and I LOVE the content. Very rational and sober minded perspective.
This is a though one. The term cult can be stretched and used on so many ways. It also depends on people LDS or not. Everyone sees it different and lives different.
Great point, a consensus in non emotive defining characteristics would be a great place to start.
Great job Nemo.
I had to go through an attorney to get my Name out. My family has judged me and most has stopped talking to me.
@@arianae6706 it’s so crazy to me how hard it was to leave the church and get my name out.
Most of our neighbors are in the ward and they won’t talk to us. Your only god with them if you lds. I can say that knowing how it actually is now. I would never take it back the Bible and the true God has changed my life.
@@arianae6706 how was leaving for you?
@@arianae6706 there is a lot to me leaving the church. It’s a bit of a story, but God had preserved me enough to see truth. I have had 2 strokes first one at 28 years old. I have had blood clots that filled up both of my lungs. I went through a very difficult divorce that I wasn’t sore I was going to make it out of and had another stroke due to stress. After being at ground zero my best friend had got me to start questioning the church. I started doing research for month and the hard part for me was feeling deceived and it made me angry.
I left 2 years ago then my brother left and family has treated us different especially talking to them about the Bible.
It was hard at first, but all my hope is in God and his word in the Bible. Nothing hurts anymore.
@@arianae6706 that is hard.
I trust God and the Bible that’s about it anymore. I love people regardless because I know It’s God place to judge and he has asked me to love.
I talk about God every opportunity I can. Lots of conversations with lds, jw .
@@arianae6706
Wow!
Was it expensive?
(using an attorney, I mean)
one interesting thing ive noticed is that the jackasses at fair mormon or midnight mormons pick on several different youtubers with mockery and asshattery. I have never seen them pick on you. They know that you have standing in any argument that they float. Well done.
A cult is defined by having a leader or belief system that is to not be questioned. Cults are abusive. They follow the chart of coercion. There are cult-like aspects of the church such as being taught to not question the doctrine or teachings. If you are not free to think for yourself in an organization, you’re most likely in a cult.
Btw, I’m an abuse/brainwashing specialist so I work with a lot of religious abuse and do deprogramming
@@feliciamarsh810
Yes I agree!
I think the financial commitment required for full and continuing membership whilst the church remains completely unaccountable Is enough to qualify
That's a fair point!
Love your insights and videos. People like to throw words out there that make the hearers to immediately form an opinion and judge without knowing facts. Cult is one of those words. Yes, the church has many rules. Yes, the church has many not so honest leaders. Yes, the church has lots of money. Yes, the church uses methods of shame,
coercion, and such thru convincing members to do what they are told (some call it brainwashing). One big difference that the church is NOT a cult, is the fact there are no locked gates or barricaded compounds to prevent people from leaving. Members are free to come and go. Of course the leaders don't want members to leave. Less members means less money. The leaders want power and control but it's not enforced physically. Only members on missions have various restrictions. Otherwise, folks can leave the church or stay.
I think "apostate", a term used by Mormons to describe those who leave is perjorative too...
Another Great episode! Thank you Nemo
My pleasure!
I like your approach. Dont loose faith. Errors are human but that doesn't get into God's way. I like that you are exposing the fallacies being used as old school marketingvtactics. I am finding out if i will become the communications and messaging manager for the Church Priesthool and family services committee. If hired I will really pay attention to your feedback. Keep us honest and errors in critical thinking called to attention. Thank you for serving Heavenly Father and Holy Mother in Heaven in this way. Fear not you are serving a critical mission that will have lasting effects for millennium. ✝️🤵😇👰📯🦄💓
Let me know how your application goes, and thanks for your kind feedback!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON i did not get hired. I believe that I was a little to up front.
Love your videos! I hope you keep doing them.
Thank you! Will do!
A feature of a cult is that it is a high demand religion. In this respect Christianity, as taught by Christ, was more of a cult than modern mormonism is. This is because Christians were required to give up all their possessions. Christ also taught that no-one was worthy of Him who loved their father and mother more. Early Christianity was not family orientated, and believers were required to forsake all including their families... unlike mormonism where families are sealed together forever.
Where Mormonism genuinely is more of a cult in the pejorative sense, is the deliberate concealment of information from members. Christianity is in the Bible, where people can interpret and argue about it as much as they like. But mormonism is more complex and it takes quite a while for converts to know what they have actually joined. If they knew what they were getting into many would never have got involved.
@Paul Hadlow Except that in the temple you agree to give all that you have, time, talents and means, all that you have been given, to the COJCOLDS for the building up of the "kingdom," which ends up being the $124B rainy day fund that Jesus needs when he returns. They also say that God (or church in reality) is first, then family all while claiming families are forever, but only if you pay your dues to get into the temple and do your "works" to be worthy. All the time that one puts into "serving" can definitely take away from the family. There are many ways the church divides families. Watch out if someone is LGBTQ. That is one of the most divisive things I've seen within the church.
I wasn’t allowed to talk to my family while I was on my mission, and they were all members!
Did you serve back in the day of letters only?
@@NEMOTHEMORMON you know what, I was actually able to email once a week now that you mention it. I hear it’s even more lax today. Probably because they didn’t like being associated with groups that are that controlling.
Is Mormonism a Cult?
-Yes.
(Roll Credits)
Hahaha!
When I first began exploring Christianity, I was surprised at how loosely Christians use the word “cult” to apply to any religion that both claims to believe in Jesus Christ but denies specific traditional or orthodox creeds (e.g. the Trinity). Mainstream Christianity’s use of “cult” strikes me as an extraordinarily rigid and aggressive tactic to maintain a certain level of conformity and exclusivness.
That said, just because the word “cult” is applied loosely to your religion by some doesn’t mean your religion has no cult characteristics. Others have assessed the LDS Church according to the more objective and evaluative BITE model, and I recommend those videos here on TH-cam.
No, just what historical Christianity has taught from the Apostles. When you change these Core doctrines then you become a CULT ,not just a SECT or denomination.
Great channel. Thanks for your thoughts.
Thanks for watching!
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
People forget that benign cults are still cults and not religions. I suppose some cults could be beneficial if the leader/doctrine doesn’t use the inordinate amount of control over the cult members for his/her own nefarious purposes.
Great information. Insightful as always.
Much appreciated
You did a great job on this!!!
Thank you! Cheers!
Great video! I love your responses to Saints Unscrupulous ... I mean Unscripted! 😳
Glad you enjoyed!
🤣👍
Great video. You touched on this, but I'd be curious to know whether you would assert that every religion is a cult. Personally I wouldn't, not only because I'm not familiar with every religion (just as no one I see), but because if any definition of "cult" is either synonymous with or a superset of "religion" then it's not a definition worth using and loses all power as a diagnostic tool (as you elegantly term it). Great video as always my friend!
Thanks! I'm not sure it would loose all diagnostic power, but rather would diagnose the shortcomings that are present in all those religions. However as you rightly said, I too am not familiar with every religion, so couldn't lay that broad a claim.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON fair enough! Some of my reluctance might come from how much fundamentalism we have across the pond here in The Colonies🇺🇲 so I'd want that word to really mean something more. Ultimately I find these discussions inevitably lead to a semantics game, which can still be informative.
Key takeaways: watch "the Burbs" if you haven't. Also, watch it again if you have.
Is there a kind of fallacy that's Part vs. Whole? Composition? Perhaps? "Lots of places have drains, like my bathtub, so what if this dank champer oh pain has a drain in the middle of it by these chains. Are you saying that MY washroom is a torture den?"
I can kind of get where this fellah is coming from, and I really feel like he's being genuine, and send like my mind of feller. It's not just the charismatic leader, it's the other pieces which, once in symphony, can kiiind of sound like flavor-aid.
I haven't watched it, i'll put it on my list!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON there were a few scenes that the OP used when he was talking about cults. It's an absolutely wonderful movie. My favorite Tom Hanks film hands down.
What you need to ask a Mormon is name one cult that calls itself a cult, most people in a cult believe that they have found the truth and they are so special to be a member of that group
I hope David watches this - straight up logic.
If only Saints Unscripted would run through the BITE model...
If only!
I see the church as somewhere between cult in the serious sense of the word Heaven's Gate etc and faiths that require nothing of people in terms of time and commitment. Same with the modesty standards. We aren't quite as extreme as Muslim women who wear burqa and niqab but not as extreme on the other end where anything goes.
Also within the faith there are individuals and families that are more hardline than others, that use the fear of God to control rather than the love of God to free.
Thanks for sharing your perspective, I would agree!
Red Flag: Obey the current prophet. Do not question. As per LDS leaders in conference talks, don't pray to God for confirmation that what a current prophet and apostle said is true and correct. Just obey.
Doing great work NEMO!! Thanks for what you Do!!
Much appreciated, my pleasure!
The church is true and all the blessings. i am very grateful for the church they saved my life and put me on the path of redemption even after all my sins since my baptism
David is so smart, I don’t see how he honestly says the things he does.
He has no choice another sign of a cult or high control group!
I can’t remember where, but I’m sure I’ve read somewhere that intelligent people are actually more likely to fall for brainwashing techniques and the like.
Great upload! And I am thrilled that you used Steve Hassan’s recently updated edition for its 30th Anniversary, “Freedom of Mind.” In the book, he says because the word cult is so charged, he labels any religion, Relatioship, political ideologies, etc. as imposing “undo influence.”
Thank you very much, glad you enjoyed it!
How about the secret handshakes, otherwise known as ( signs & tokens) so you can have access to Heaven… well maybe their heaven, to pass through the veil… what bat crap craziness was I being taught!
JS ripped this off from Freemasonry and is it a wonder in the early 1800’s why JS and his new religion were met with much suspicion if not downright hostility?
Mormons also have a taught persecution complex. The Missouri extermination order used as a way to cause them.to see anyone who disagrees as a persecutor.
Our definition of a cult is any group that teaches allegiance is to anyone other than God alone.
Interesting definition, thanks for sharing!
Having grown up in the Church, I’ve always felt they revered their leaders and the Church itself over all
Hi Nemo, thanks to Peter and yourself I know more than I ever wanted to about the LDS.
There are any number of ways I’ve been enlightened by your discussions.just listened to you on “21st century saints “ as well. Btw the link to your TH-cam under their podcast is somehow incorrect. For this and other queries there’s no easy way to message you. No doubt providing an email is out of the question.
my email is nemothemormon@gmail.com, I'll contact the ladies and see if we can fix the link, cheers!
Great stuff as always!
Thanks again!
What does he mean ‘we don’t threaten you with Hell if you leave?’ Or is my understanding or apostates being sent to outer darkness missing something? Wasn’t there that image from the Ensign (or whatever it’s called now) with the shoots and ladder image sending apostates directly there?
I think he's running on the technicality that mormons don't use the word hell or believe in the traditional concept. But a rose by any other name...
@@NEMOTHEMORMON Nothing but semantic tricks and logical fallacies from those LDS apologists.
Oh they are about to change out that doctrine anyway, all apostates will now have to man the ice cream trucks in lower heavens ( terrestrial and telestial) till they get certified for the celestial.
@@bobbobski3815 That's right. Heavenly Father did not like the bad P.R. with the whole outer darkness thing for apostates.
What he's saying is accurate because LDS doctrine still gives those who leave an *eternity* to return to the faith. No other Christian faith-tradition does this.
Another great podcast from Nemo. I could not agree more with your conclusions.
Thanks for watching!
Is the B.I.T.E model accepted among the sociological and psychological professions as the way to diagnose cultism(in the contemporary use of the word)? Or is it a very well written dissertation that is in no way authoritative? If we appeal to the B.I.T.E. model as our method for assessment, what are we assuming or presupposing?
Are we assuming thar this model was made independently of religious prejudice? Could it be that Steve Hassan presupposed or relabeled certain religions as cults and then developed a model to justify his prejudices? In fact, that is the method he used. The cults, like Maoist China, were identified first, the BITE model came to describe their methods later. Many methods listed are already utilized by both extreme and moderate societies. For me the question is, but when do humans justify their uses?
Mililtary taining is seen as a necessity to the national security of nearly all governments. The typical methods utilized by even western nations in the training of their force resemble the BITE model quite completely. Why are we ok with this? Is it because we benefit as a society from it? I only use this example to show that it really seems to be the ideals and intentions of the institution that utilizes some methods that must align with public ethics and morality to be accepted rather than the use of the methods themselves.
No doubt people have been, are, and will be harmed by many different forms of religious zealotry that most can wasily accept as cult like behavior.
Let’s look at the direct definition of the word “cult” and then the direct detention of “sinister” and then we can debate whether or not the church has “sinister” practices. I believe if the church has “sinister” practices then we can safely conclude that it is a cult. But what part of the practices seem harmful or evil?
This is an interesting perspective. I find a lot of the argument for or against the church being a cult comes down to definitions. Are you saying that to you the definition of sinister is harmful or evil? does it have to be both? Because evil is more subjective than harm, so my preference for real world diagnostics personally would be harm, as it is easier to measure.
@@NEMOTHEMORMON yeah it emphasizes on harming people or something of that nature but I liked your definition of a cult. It has such a negative connotation but you somehow made it seem less so. I am LDS and find your videos educational and interesting
LOL!!! Terrible timing for the reference to Bill Gates!!! What was the nick name of Epstiens plane he flew on?
Lolita Express
A lot of people don't use the term "cult," probably for reasons discussed here.
Instead, they might use a more precise term, such as "high-demand/high-control religion" or "new religious movement."
A high-demand/high-control religion is defined as "a faith community that requires obedience; discourages its members from questioning its rules, principles, and practices; expects subservience and loyalty; discourages trusting relationships outside the group; perpetuates the notion that those within the group are right and superior to those outside of it; promotes extreme or polarizing beliefs; and expects its members to suppress their authentic selves in exchange for the sense of belonging and security the group offers. Even if you haven’t been part of a religion that fits this profile, you’ve probably encountered groups characterized by some of these elements, whether in the form of a family system, a couple struggling with domestic violence, or a political group."
“If it looks like a snake, sounds like a snake, and moves like a snake.. it’s a snake. Except for when you’re making valid comparisons between legitimate harmful cults and our church.. otherwise, it’s not a snake. Because I say so” 😂
I think the thing that rings cult to me about the LDS church is how anti intellectual they appear to be. From what I’ve heard from a lot of former members and even from clips of church leaders is that you are taught to doubt your doubts, doubt everything that runs contrary to what the church teaches you and try get your information from the cult. Even the more modern youth oriented apologists you can see constantly trying to employ subtle half truths and logical fallacies to cover their tracks and try dissuade members from questioning themselves. I’m not sure if it’s also true but I’ve heard from some ex Mormons that the idea of the Holy Spirit and praying being the only way to confirm your beliefs is also quite dubious to me. There are a lot of other weird things about the church but this is just one of them that rings some red flags to me.
The anti intellectualism is certainly one of the big red flags for me that something is amiss!
@@NEMOTHEMORMON among others, some of the things some ex Mormons have professed to believing are so worrying.
@@arianae6706 yeah there are so many, the ex Mormon videos of people talking about things they used to believe about sin and spirits and how if you leave the church you can literally never be truly happy are very problematic. I agree tho in these people’s minds if you even mention the word cult since it is such a loaded term it would scare anyone away from discussing but you can very easily point out the elements of their beliefs that are problematic and unhealthy to think. Even as an ex Christian I still feel shame for things that rationally I know aren’t harmful or evil but I just hate myself for it still, I imagine for ex Mormons given how stringent their belief system’s rules are it’s even more severe.
David doesn’t want to talk, hence they block any non Mormon questions on their channel. It’s just for reinforcement of the church not actual answers to questions. You should ask a hard question on his channel, no answer and blocking you is the solution!
Hi, Shawn or you can be kicked off as I was but not the Mormons being more abusive to me. !
I was kicked off as well I challenge David on a viewpoint he had and told him he was being dishonest. And I got the boot.
@@TrevorThatBandanaGuy Sorry, but they cannot take the truth that they are defending a counterfeit church : I like counterfeit better than cult because it has the idea of deception and hiding of the truth by lying. Counterfeit is just a nicer way of saying cult!
I will say David was the person l liked best because he knows the problems of Mormonism even if he is following the party line because of his job: someday he will wake up!
@@davidjanbaz7728 if David Snill does indeed know how much of a problem mormonism has and is unwilling to speak up he is part of the problem.
As someone who’s been on both sides of that kind of conversation, I can say that David (and Mormons in general) will only be open to that kind of discussion when a certain point is reached in doubting and exploring. Even trying to have that talk before then is not only futile, but might end up doing more harm than good overall.
If there is a human at the head of your religion it's a cult. There is only one mediator between man and the father.
And you DON’t Need to pay a Middleman for a relationship with God.
Golly gee, it sure is beautiful seeing all the "Former LDS" moving on from their "cult-related trauma" that they never need stand on the Name, skills, wisdom, and knowledge they inherited from the church. The ego is a fascinating beast; surely nothing of merit can be gleaned from a people of such stubborn resilience?...by all logic they should have been destroyed several times over if they did not draw from the memory of truth and long-suffering. Who can look about the time we are now in and not see use of Lehi's Dream, Wars and rumors of Wars in "America" before Columbus, Proclamation to the World, Word of Wisdom, Porter Rockwell, John Browning, Ezra T. Benson (on The Constitution), Executive Order 44, etc. As for me; i have been equally guilty and blinded but i also now behold that great and spacious building everytime i pick up this phone...i choose to put my shoulder to the wheel, for not doing so hath made me weary.
You can choose to not follow the principles they teach you. It's totally your choice! Except then you can't enter the temple to see your family member get married if you don't follow the rules and pay money. Yeah, totally a fair, uncoerced choice. /S
That's about the size of it!
Academic critics have always questioned the legitimacy of Smith as a prophet as well as the historical authenticity of the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham. Criticism has expanded to include claims of historical revisionism.
Does anyone else just wait for the BITE model to show up?
That Bill Gates reference hasn't aged well now that he is going through a divorce due to infidelity and his ties to Jeffrey Epstein . S.U is implying that because Bill carries himself as a harmless goofball that is what he is most likely to be. When examining parallels between persons or organizations, each item should be valued on its individual merits.
Yeah, not aged well at all!
When I call anything a cult, it meets from official policy, teaching, and doctrines and comparing it to the BITE model, and the more it meets, then it it’s higher on the spectrum of cults.
Yes, there is a certain views of “cult” that people want to distance themselves from, like Jonestown, and Heavens Gate, which David mentions.
There’s similarly between me (independent evangelical Christian) and a reformed baptist, but the more something meets the BITE model, then the more it is a cult then something comparing something like Non-denominational church is rural Australia, or SDA, or LDS or even political Groups.
When I try to explain to a former LDS friend, they thought it was an attack on them as a person, when they have a better “Education” when I use very specific and clear terms.
And just to David’s point, not once did a member give me cookies, when I left. Also, when I left Nemo, I didn’t have to send a notarised letter by a lawyer, or had to go to meetings, but I did include in the email addresses that I sent my resigning letter to, was my bishop and stake president. Clearly stating there’s no way I can stay a member after taking advice of church leaders and studying the faith and “doubting my doubts”.
What's this guys name from saints unscripted? David or Doug?
David
Would you consider go to the #allreligionsmust protest outside Jehovah witness convetintion?
Sweet David, flying so close to the sun. Another apologist for the church to cast aside when the truth chars his beautiful wings.
I wonder if/ when apologists will twig?
David is a nice guy, and the most informed and nuanced of the who lot that work for Saints Unscripted (which is funded by the More Good Foundation - partial funding by the Mormon church). I have informed him of some inadvertent errors that he has made in his articles in the past and he has been gracious enough to correct/update them. He really seems like he's trying to do the best that he can given the information he has available.
@@scottvance74 I pointed out somethings that was wrong about church history but that would cause a new video and of course he refused because it would really look bad and conflict with the Mormon narrative of the Apostasy of the Christian churches.
Take a look at Steven Hassan's Freedom of Mind Resource Center and his BITE Model. No matter how you look at it, LDS Church = undue influence = cult.
Posted this before you got to that part. Agree most organized religions use these tactics. Even Christ taught principles, not rules and railed against the Pharisees for getting too strict. Key is to think for yourselves while still being guided by principles.
Great way to think about it, thanks!
It’s totally a cult.
Thanks for sharing your POV!
Thank you, Nemo.
You're welcome!
That comment... “We might bring you some cookies”... Is disgusting, it is so indicative of the way that so many Mormon people view and treat those who have left the church... my sister-in-law lamented to me once that she was “going to be so sad that I wouldn't be in the Celestial Kingdom with her”... Presuming I suppose that being Mormon was a sure way to get there... DISGUSTING!!!!!
But maybe your Sister in Law was sincere.
@@Themanyfacesofego Oh, she absolutely was sincere... but that is what is so sad... I really believe it may be just the opposite... But she can’t be open to that because of her HEAVY Mormon programing💦
Whether I identify "cult" as an fact or insult depends how the term is used. I know some people are sensitive about how people describe their beliefs, if someone uses it to intend to hurt someone's feelings it's an insult. If a discussion links to characteristics of a cult, I see nothing wrong with calling a church a cult. If the topic has no association with cults and someone just goes "you're a cult" it's clearly being used as an insult.
They are having a social conversation about The Book of Mormon and how they believe it was produced.
A: "I believe it was translated through the power of God."
B: "You're a cult."
Would anyone respond like "B" or would they share their views and gradually move towards talking about cults as the social conversation moves on, like if they begin talking about church beliefs and practices?
"You're a cult."
That being the first and only thing a person says is rather lame, if I said that to someone, I would at least say why I view it as a cult.
This talk about cults also raises an important issue for anyone who calls groups cults.
"Normality is a Cult"
We find anyone who does not appear "normal" (whatever is normal) find themselves being abused.
Politics and economics are determined by "normal", and look at the turmoil and poverty normality has done to the world.