Dry Sumps, Wet Sumps AND Accusumps Explained | MounTune [TECH TALK]
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ต.ค. 2019
- What do YOU know about wet, dry and Accusumps?
Maintaining a high-pressure supply of oil is a big problem for engine packages that were originally designed for road use, but find themselves being worked hard on the track in vehicles with sticky slicks and consistently pulling more G’s than the factory engineers ever planned. David Mountain of MounTune explains some of the issues that are caused not exclusively but namely by lateral g-Forces while cornering for circuit racers, but also apply to horizontal forces while accelerating and braking for all you drag racers out there.
Essentially in a wet-sump, issues arise when g-Forces move the oil away from the pickup that is supposed to collect the oil from your sump to be fed back to the top of your engine. When there is no oil there to be collected, air is instead sucked in which can cause parts of your engine to run dry and cause anything from minor damage to terminal failure.
How can a dry-sump help? David dives right into explaining how a dry sump setup holds oil in a remote reservoir that is filled from the top via a scavenge system, and then the oil is drawn from the bottom back to the engine via a positive feed. The system will also generally employ the use of an air/oil separator on the scavenge side as well as a breather for the tank to ensure it does not over pressurize and only one pump is required for the entire system. With oil constantly being drawn from the bottom of the reservoir, there is no way for the system to draw in air by mistake.
The scavenging side of things is also explained along with the number of pickups that generally get the job done for most applications. As well as packaging advantages when it comes to weight distribution, dry sumps can also offer a healthy power increase depending on the application which can make a huge difference for classes where natural aspiration is used due to the reduced oil windage and aeration along with the use of negative vacuum pressure.
What if a dry sump is out of your budget or banned from your class? If you must use a wet-sump, you still have some options although for the level of motorsport David and Andre are talking about here it could actually work out to be the same cost if not more expensive than a dry sump setup, there’s something else for the solely budget limited below. Based on Subaru FA20 British Touring Car Championship (BTCC) setups wet sumps can run a moving pickup that essentially follows the oil around the sump along with the use of 1 way valves and ‘trap door’ setups that prevent the oil from climbing to far back up the side of the engine and away from the pick up.
Accusumps are another option that are sometimes shied away from in professional motorsport classes that require wet-sump usage due to the weight, but for a budget orientated performance build they can be a great option particularly when combined with the use of baffles placed in your sump to help keep your oil in the right spot. An Accusump is basically a pressurised syringe of oil which automatically dumps itself into your main oil gallery when the pressure begins to drop and then refills itself over time. While this is ideally not something that will be activated on every other corner, when combined with some other modern safety features it is a great option for your street turned track car.
Also discussed are the topics of blow-by and why an internal chain-driven oil pump is preferred to an external belt driven one where possible.
NOTE: Around the 7-minute mark David means to say that the DRY sump setup is cheaper when compared to the amount of work and development that goes into getting the wet-sump setup discussed to be reliable and it is only because of class rules that they are used.
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#highperformanceacademy #enginebuilding101 #mountune #btcc #drysump #wetsump #accusump #sumps #whichsump #oiling #lubrication #allthesumps #motorsports - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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Welcome back to you HPA subscribers! Any of you running an Accusump? - Taz 👨🏻
We run one in our 2.5L stock Hydroplane and have run them on our 2.5 modified in the past. But our next modified will be dry sump.
BTW I think he meant to say wet sumps end up being more money when he started talking about them.
Nice one, why the change? Yes he did indeed, just a mix up of words there sorry. Luckily he explained that awesome, but obviously costly, wet sump system well so it becomes a bit obvious but I did try and pop a few notes around and adjusted the captions to be safe - Taz.
@@hpa101 We just bought a new composite hull for my modified class boat and are looking for every ounce of power possible. The previous boat was an older plywood and epoxy hull and was on the heavy side. We just purchased it as a way to get me in the class. I jumped up a class because my daughter is running the 2.5 stock (S) class now that she is old enough(she's faster than me too ). Now that she's competitive there's room in the budget for dad to have fun again ;-)
Starved my BMW N55 engine at the track while running slicks. Found that the oil pan is pretty poor. Baffled the pan and installed an Accusump upon rebuild. It works at preventing intermittent oil pressure dips. Proven with logs during autocross runs. Extended gforce will still present a problem though and im sure air is still being sent through the block if the pickup runs dry. Airplanes use them though so they must work... Stunt pilots bet their life on them working...
@@saintsincere7783 about to run one myself, can’t wait 🙌✅
NOTE: Around the 7-minute mark David means to say that the DRY sump setup is cheaper when compared to the amount of work and development that goes into getting the wet-sump setup discussed to be reliable. Everything else is spot on, just a mix up of words 😎- Taz 👨🏻
Not forgetting the rebuild bill if the wet sump setup doesn't work properly.
Gated and baffled wet sump is all you need, this is what we do to the twin cam lotus engine... elantrikbits.com/gated-baffled-sump/
This video is far more valuable than most will realize.
Love how the hp guy went back to make sure everything was understood. I would have missed the moving pickup part if he didn’t go back and would have never heard of one before. Thanks.
Keep up with the great videos
Another great vid from Andre "Lets just go back and unpack that" Simon A++
It's great that David recognises the significance of a competitor's product, no sales pitch at all! Good man
Accusump has saved me from the disasters of my inadequate sump designs so many times, for over two decades.
They are worth every single cent on a wet sump engine and very cheap insurance.
AND, yet another great and useful video from HPA. Thanks again.
They are also great for final engine assembly. Why start your engine without a supply of oil already in the places it's needed instead of being at the bottom of the stump?
@@dj4monie In all the years I've been using Accusumps I must have missed something. How do you get the oil into the Accusump before starting your engine for the very first time, immediately after final assembly?
@@-MacCat- Go on Cantons website. They have a guide on how to use the Accusump for this purpose (how to charge it).
@@brendenbanks9293 Because I'm fallible and, as I said, I may have missed something, I went through the Canton website, again, looking for their instructions on what Anthony Thomas suggested.
On the Canton Blog FAQ's under "How does an Accusump Oil Accumulator Work?" they state "Accusumps Oil Accumulators are designed collect pressurized oil from your engine and store it so it may be discharged later. .......... After the engine is started and the oil pump has taken over, oil is pumped back into the Accusump........".
I'm quite sure this means the engine need to be running, or the oil pump have turned many cycles, if possible and perhaps with the use of a drill driven drive , for the initial collection/storage of oil.
I also looked in every pdf and web page I could access including "ACCUSUMP™ INSTALLATION
& OPERATION INSTRUCTIONS" especially the "OPERATION & CARE / FINAL SETUP
- SETTING THE PRE-CHARGE" section. There's no reference there either on the accumulator discharging oil into the engine unless the engine has been previously run and the accumulator had been filled.
I just can't find anything that specifies that it can be used to pre-lube the engine, after final assembly, before the engine has been run long enough to build oil pressure and had time to fill the accumulator.
Help me out here and point me to the section that I've missed, please.
Thanks in advance for helping us all out if indeed there is an answer .
@@-MacCat-
I don't have one at hand, to check, but I would suggest -
Remove the pressure guage or shraeder [yeah, I know - spelling...] valve.
Remove the outlet fitting and lightly pressurise that side to move the divider towards the guage end.
Place on end with oil side up, fill with oil. Refit valve (or whatever) to oil port to prevent leakage.
Refit guage/shraeder valve.
Fit ACCUSUMP to vehicle and connect hoses, etc.
Pressurise (or preferably connect to regulated air supply) to required pressure - 25-30 should be plenty for this, but will need tweaking in actual useage.
Open valve and check oil is entering the engine - I would suggest leaving off the valve/cam' covers to visually check oil is getting to the valve train.
NOTE!!! For those using it on a V8 or other engine that uses splash lubrication for a flat tappet design follower, plenty of the correct anti-scuff lubricant MUST be used and rpm held at a high engine speed to ensure splash lubrication and initial bedding in - pre-oiling does NOTHING for this area of the engine!
I love how he says "bearings". Makes me want a nice cold bear.
Another incredible video that manages to cater for the entire spectrum of knowledge on this issue. Well done and thankyou.
Cheers for the support Hambo. Appreciate it - Taz.
that swing pick-up is a great idea
Favorite video to date... mostly because I have been on the fence for an accusump for while, and this sold me. Not flashy, but exactly what I needed to hear.
Perfect! If you're on the HPA forum you should start a build thread about it, would be cool to see it come together for you, nudge nudge 😉- Taz.
yep, same here.
Some of you may have no idea just what a race engine's oiling system goes through - at the end of this comment there are a couple of Porsche dyno' test rigs specially designed to try and replicate the dynamic loadings, the actual total G can't be done in a rig, just the effective angles - something of an eye opener!
A simple 1G corner will be the equivalent of a 45 degree inclination, a F1 car that has a peak lateral acc'n of 5G is like the power unit at a 75.8 degree angle, if my math' is correct (SOH?), even a 'mere' 2G is ~60 degrees! From that, some of you with 'V' engine may realise it isn't just the oil in the sump that's the problem, but oil not being unable to drain from the outer bank, and in extreme cases, the oil can be forced from the sump back up into the outer head - so with those engines, it's a good idea to consider a scavenge segment for each head, or at least the outer head if there's a long sweeper.
I believe the the final sweeper at Hampton Downs, for the Kiwis, has claimed quite a number of engines, including some traverse inline ones.
Some of you watching this may not have access to a data logger, or perhaps a warning isn't so noticeable in the heat of competition - an old-school trick was to use an additional high-pressure oil switch, preferably as far from the pump as practical, connected to a large light on the dash - an indicator light was commonly used - made it rather obvious if there was a problem! NOTE, most OEM pressure switches are barely 10-15 PSI, use a proper one of at least 35PSI, like these - www.demon-tweeks.com/nz/mocal-low-oil-pressure-switch-372393/
th-cam.com/video/fv53RbvgfGc/w-d-xo.html - flat six at the 'ring.
and
th-cam.com/video/Ny9xl7iWayU/w-d-xo.html - V8 ditto
I got 78.7 degrees for the 5G turn, but maybe I hashed. Great comment anyway.
That oil control is one of the big things about a dry sump system. You can have a tall skinny tank that keeps a deep column of oil that could often be at 90° and still be picked up. And, with multiple return stages you can pull oil from multiple locations. Sometimes they’ll have returns on each of the heads so oil can’t get built up there.
Once you get into the higher level racing dry sump is about the only way to go unless there’s rules against it for some reason.
This channel has the most enjoyable tech talks
Thanks Simon for making sure everything was understood, and thanks again to David Mountain :)
A very good explanation of the options available to prevent oil starvation. The most concise and thorough video I've seen on the topic. Great job!
Good to see you the other day andre, love your work bro
Great interview, freaking love this channel!
Wow this was awesome how the exspencive dry sumps work and a few options with budget and weekend track cars in mind
this was a great video and as usual, very informative to say the least. Thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it =)
Never heard of accusump before. Thanks !
Another Great video!!
Very good video! Lots of important info. I'll need a baffle system for wet sump and an accusump system just adds to the safety of keeping the engine alive.
Glad you enjoyed it Tanvir! Cheers for the comment - Taz.
I'm pretty sure the accusump has the added benefit of keeping your bearings loaded prior to startup//cranking - they also have a (smaller) unit for turbo(s) as well
It CAN if you are using it in conjunction with solenoids/valves that allow it to retain pressure when the engine is off and release it back into the engine before startup.
David is great!
Great interview, thanks as always.
Thanks Brian! - Taz.
Moving pick-up...With a keel
Brilliant !
Great video, thanks!
Awesome video
Great vid.
@High Performance Academy, a trick that BMW has been doing on their "M" engines is something relatively easy to duplicate on any engine at home for cheap. Use a scavenging pump to pull oil from the front of the oil pan and dump it in the rear sump area. Just gotta pull the pan off and tap it for some AN lines. Then wire up the electronic oil scavenging pump which can be had for relatively cheap. You can google how the S55/S58 in the M2/M3/M4 etc. work by googling "S55 engine pdf."
Forgot, another use for an Accusump is in pre-oiling an engine before start-up.
If a shutoff valve is fitted to the Accusump, before shutting down the engine, run it at a fast idle (where the oil pressure reaches it's operating level) and close the valve - this should maximise the oil volume in the reservoir. Then, before starting the engine, open the valve and the Accusump will prime the oil ways, lubricate all the bearings, etc - this is especially beneficial if the engine sits a bit between running periods and/or is running a lot of valve spring pressure on bucket/flat cam' followers. Hmm, thinking on it, some vehicles have a clutch safety switch that prevents cranking without depressing the clutch - bypassing that to avoid thrust bearing wear, especially with stronger clutch diaphrams, on startup when the bearing is reliant on a residual oil film, is best - but an Accusump will give lubrication there, anyway.
Great video. I had no idea about accusumps. They might be a more reasonable idea for my drift E36 along with some baffles. A dry sump would cost more than the car 😂
Good video
Awesome video this, always great to hear to clever knowledgeable people talk engine tech! I’ve just invest in a gated sump but not only happy with that I’ve also got Accusump also! Much more assurance on my highly build 2JZ which will see a lot of circuit work.
Cheap insurance eh! Hope you enjoy getting it out on track when the time comes mate - Taz.
@@hpa101 definitely totally agree. Thanks can’t wait, should be about 2-3 months tops now can’t wait.
600ish bhp used to be what I used on track (crack/wastegate pressure) probably likely to be closer to 700 this time around) which makes it a fun and reasonably hard car to throw around circuit but one of the most fun too. Can’t wait! Thanks Taz 🙌
That's a solid increase in power there! I think fun will be an understatement haha Cheers for sharing 😎 - Taz.
@@hpa101 peak power was 854bhp and likely to soon be 1100-1200bhp, whole different build, fuel system and turbo etc etc etc can’t wait! Going from throttle cable to DBW too so I’ll be able to have loads of control with that actually so can even have less than crack based on 50%OT
Thank you
We need David to help solve the oiling issue of the FA24 in the GR86/ BRZ 😢
top vid thanks , keep up the good work
Thanks Joe! Appreciate the support - Taz.
@@hpa101 having quite bad Dyslexia your vids and how you break down and explain things is so so helpful i would never be able to understand almost all your topics if i had to read about them in a book , honestly thank you so much for posting
Another really great load of information, knowledge and experience their. Many of us only have an oil pressure gauge to monitor, so this is really valuable.
I want a go no-go for a main engine start ignition set to open fuel pump pressurization switch set to open main engine prelube oil valve set to open 40 lb of oil pressure you now have a go for main engine start
Forgot, again, some (older) belt driven engines have the oil pump/dissy driven independently by a jackshaft pulley - this can be spun for oil priming, pressure and leak check before fitting the belt and finishing assembly. Vauxhall slant 4 and, IIRC, Ford Pinto SOHC 4 come to mind but they may be too old for most to know?
Andre = MEGA
Further thoughts.
The concern I have is people relying on this when, in practice, there is a fairly narrow range where the big ends will have a supplemental oil supply - I mean from normal operating oil pressure to the point where the centrigugal force in the main bearing oilways prevents oil flow into the oil feeds to the big ends - at high rpm, that may be a 20-30 PSI drop range, which is going to be a lot less, proportionally, of the nominal oil volume in the accumulator.
Certainly a lot better than nothing, though!
Wet sump is the way to go. Reliable oiling, made to withstand lateral G force. Simple system, excellent engineering. Using common sense.
Wet sumps are not made to withstand lateral g-Forces beyond what you do on the road, that's the reason for dry sumps and accusumps - Taz.
Hi. Very informative video. Thanks. A question often discussed: When is it needed to close a block valve from oil tank to pump avoiding the oil moving to/filling the engine when car is parked for a while. Are we talking about hours/days/wheeks? Whats your experience? Thanks!
Dave seems like a sound fella 👍🏻
Certainly knows his stuff and we're stoked he was happy to spend so much time with us while we were in the UK - Taz.
There's a rule proposal for NASA's spec e46 to allow accusunps. Hopefully it passes.
Awhile back the SCCA was opposed to Geartronics style shifters in the P2 class but it's been a godsend for prolonging the life of motorcycle engines in cars.
"Spend money to save money" is a common pattern in motorsports. And wherever it rears its head it will be opposed by those with good intentions.
Thanks for sharing,awesome parts, I definitely need those but i've seen one available on Lindsey Racing for 944/968 turbo with belt mounting unfortunately..and it needs to remove the A/C....and.....it's so expensive!!!
it's more than 6000 dollars including the tank and the hoses….just like the amount of a stripped engine.
Use an Accusump
Interesting system, thanks
what about putting the crankcase , under suction negative pressure ? vacum ?
There haven’t been any recorded issues of the Honda Civic type R having oil starvation issues on the track but not to say it doesn’t happen because with the right sticky tires Im sure this car pulls some G forces around sweeping turns. Since I’ve upped my power to 686hp to the ground I will be having a Unity 2 baffled oil pan installed, an HKS oil cooler, and an Accusump. It’s my daily street car for now but just want the added insurance my engine is properly getting oil in all the critical areas at all times even at startup.
Yes sometimes with newer platforms the only way you can find the limit is to be the guy that breaks things and collects the data to go through, but for something like this where it is well documented for other platforms and engines, it's a safer bet to do what you are doing and just pre-empt it even if you are not sure of the exact point it will cause your wallet even more pain.
With slicks on you are going to run into other issues anyway with grip being where components were not designed to handle it, so might as well save dealing with engine failure as being part of that eh =D
PS: A 686hp Type R sounds like a ton of fun dude! Good man - Taz.
I’d like to hear about Piston oil squirters that are mounted on the main bearings to assist cylinder wall lubrication once the dry sump system eliminates windage. I’d like to hear how they further assists the tuning window by cooling the Pistons. On another note; Robert Yates, I believe it was, did a test. He placed wireless pressure sensors on the main bearing oil feed passage in the block and also within the cranks oil passage that feeds the rods to see what is really happening. The centrifugal force on larger bearings actually started to create so much pressure it would overcome the oil pump pressure and starve the bearing. It sounds counter intuitive but that’s what happens as RPM increased. NASCAR guys are pretty smart.
C Jam Help me unpack this better please? So the dry sump negatively impacted bearing oil pressure due to lack of windage?
Yup, that's been known for a long time - some larger journal engines, like the Pontiac, needed significantly higher pressure than some others for exactly that reason.
Something else you may wish to look into is the importance of the oil drilling locations, sometimes cross-drilled journals are worse than single drilled as that also affects the hydrodynamic wedge that actually provides the oil film.
so how do i use, plumb up a oil, accumulator w/a dry sump F430 Ferrari ?
i live for in depth tech like this just wish i could afford it
Make Your own.
what about electric oil pumps ?
Guys that are running turbochargers usually end up going to a wet sump. One of my friends decided to go back to a wet sump because he said the dry-sump was just weighed the car down too much.
Bit of a sweeping statement there that I'm not sure is entirely accurate. What is your friend using the car for Ron? - Taz.
@@hpa101 my friend compete the car in drag racing. Most of the cars I see that do drag racing don't run dry-sump oil systems. I'm wondering if there is no benefit 4Runner a dry-sump on a turbocharged application.
@@hpa101 oh by the way I was going to let you guys know I'm a member of the HP academy.
Drag cars only really see G from acceleration and deceleration, so half the axis to deal with of a circuit car and much easier to design for.
I totally emptied my sump,making it
completely dry. It did not enhance
performance as much as I'd like it.
Win some lose some.
When are they selling this for the fa20!? Highly interested
Dry Stumps? Contact companies that make the systems. The pan will have to be custom made, call up a fab guy.
@@dj4monie no, the swivel design that they showed in ig
I would get in touch with Mountune directly Ricardo to see what they say about that. I had a look but couldn't find it on their website for you either: info@mountune.com - Taz.
Getting the swivel pickup to work properly is quite tricky, as any leak points will allow the pump to suck air rather than oil*. It also needs to be carefully designed so it is totally free to move - you really don't want it to stick to one side when you need it on the other.
*Smokey Yunick had a design using a high volume pump that had an oil feed take off from the pressure side to the pump collar/swivel to ensure it was impossible for it to suck air. Some designs, like the example in the video, use a seal. If you are handy, have the pump and some machine tools, you may be able to fabricate something yourself.
Has anybody attempted using a centrifugal pump to transfer oil to the reservoir? It would keep parasitic losses down all the while reducing cost and weight.
is that not what the accusump is doing? uses the engine oil pump as the pump you refer to
oil is always being bypassed back to the pan. You aren't losing anything to accusump recharging cycles while the vehicle is in operation.
Need a dry sum for a 2gr fse engine
Not something we sell sorry - Taz.
8:24 - because: WEATHERVANE.
4:22
why the hell would and ear be in the sump? What the hell are beer rings?
There are subtitles for people who can't understand our accent.
Most people can figure it out though 😉 - Ben
bear ings
Am I the only 1 seeing this as unnecessary overkill. If the correct level of oil is in the pan reguardless of the g force it will still be able to pick up oil... just imagine a full bottle of water reguardless of the force there will still be enough for the pump to pick up ...n secondly the pick up is located more to rear to which force going forward would push oil.... brake is more where an issue wld be n braking is a decrease in engine pressure.... but I guess it wont kill to have this extra constant supply in a heavily mod n aggressively driven car
The issue is the oil isn't in the pan near the pickup, as explained in the video to be fair ;) - Taz.
Dry sumps are a rip off .
Only if you don't need one, otherwise they are generally much cheaper than a rebuild of a high performance engine.
There is a lot you can do to a wet sump to improve it beyond factory too which is often enough for many people unless they also have clearance issues (engine swaps can create issues like that) - Taz.
Amazingly bad video. Too much talking, no visuals.
@@LuqmanRosley umm, it's a VIDEO not a PODCAST. If all you're going to do is talk, don't make a video.
I guess all news channels and network television didn't get your memo there @Jay. If our style isn't for you, that's fine, there are plenty of other channels out there that just show visuals with no tech and it's OK if that is your preference, but we're nerds so getting these [TECH TALKS] is what we're all about 🤓- Taz.
@@hpa101 true nerds would show footage of a real breakdown of a sump on the specific parts being discussed or at least a diagram. Real engineering is a true nerd. You're just lazy. News channels actually show what they're talking about. Instead of editing out your poor excuse about sitcoms, put that effort into proper b roll. 🤣 Your sad excuse shows your channel won't grow.
@@JaySee5 Be realistic. It's pretty difficult to do that while having an interview style conversation at a trade show. There's no need to insult people because you can't mentally visualize something.
This is an interview not Cat in the Hat picture book.