Why Dry Sumps Oil Systems Increase Performance and How They Work - Motive Tech
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2020
- In this episode of What The Fast we take a look at dry sump systems, how they work and why they're awesome. Thanks to Ross Performance Parts, we have a complete RB26 dry sump kit to help demonstrate all of the parts in the system and how they work. You can get more information here:
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I'm gonna post this to every gtr related TH-cam channel I know.. the whole world needs this channel
Hi Andrew,
I like the content but you missed an couple of advantages:
Ability to set and ajust the oil pressure on the pump(would like to see an how to on installing the system)
Ability to increase the oil capacity by changing the tank and the advantages (lowering temps)
Lower oil temps due to the external oil tank and bigger tank capacity
Creating oil presure pre starting by just rotating the oil pump camgear
On the tank design:
The round tank design prevents oil surge
The dimensions on the tank and the tapered edge on the bottom of the tank will assure the engine has oil pressure even when you run out of oil..
On an dry sump system you don't want to use cheap lines. Some cheap -AN lines don't like vacuum and this can result in the lines collapsing and losing oil pressure, making the cheap line an very expensive one.
We had more into than any video weve ever seen about dry sumps. We kept it as to the point as possible. If we said everything we knew it would be 2 hours long
When we install and test it we will go into more detail
You can't give Andrew tips. He knows all 🤪
I had a thought, if you have vacuum under the piston pulling the ring out for a better seal to the cylinder bore, are you able to run a tighter ring gap? Which in theory would open the piston ring gap wider under vacuum when oil pump is running.
Thank you so much for the in-depth explanation.
Such a awesome explanation thanks guys
Love the videos Andrew explains things so good. Thanks!
Εpic video.. I will write it again.. Such an underated channel.. Knowledge bombs all the time!! Thanks Andrew , you the man!
It took days to have me understanding thanks man
Thanks very clear explanation!
Excellent video. Props.
Very detailed and explained well, on ya
Awesome Vid Andrew! I love the What The Fast and the Platinum Tech features!
I am not sure Ross would appreciate you referring to this as a "Platinum" Tech video...
@@aaronlloydmedia9506 I'm not referring this as a Platinum tech, but I love both the What the Fast, and Platinum Tech, which is the point I was trying to make. I enjoy watching these types of in depth detailed videos about individual products. Such as the Platinum tech of the RB block brace and showing how to do the sonic testing, or the What The Fast about the aero packages, good and bad. They're very informative about what works, what doesn't work and how it works.
Great explanation!
Brilliant run through on how the system works , I was aware of dry sumps as terminology BUT never ever knew anything about them or how they worked perfectly explained 👍👍👍
really good video!
I hope that you still use this kit and and do an install video including the inserts in the sump
Awesome vid
Great video! Question - how do you calculate what the optimal vacuum is? And do you have to account for gaskets and seals getting sucked in under high vacuum?
Hi! Awesome video! Keep going!
I just had one question regarding crank case pressure. I agree that having vacum in the crank case will help pulling the piston down, but what about when the piston goes up? Wouldn’t that rob power too? I’m not sure if either negative or positive pressure is good regarding power losses... what do you think?
Lower crank pressure will allow the rotating assembly to move with less drag . Increasing efficiency more power less fuel consumption.
Hi Andrew, really good explenation. I only have a point, the vacuum will definitely help the piston come down faster, what about when piston going up? Would it be working against the vac?
Vacuum is equal across all pistons, so where it aids one piston down another will be held back by a similar amount, so net gain/loss is zero. You could very carefully seal each chamber and then have some kind of system to turn off vacuum to each piston on the upstroke, but such a system would be so complex it would probably not be worth the effort
Excellent! Automotive physics explained clearly for the average punter. Few young guys know that dry sump racing engines have been around for approx. 80 years.
Can you put steel/ brass wool at the top of the tank to increase surface area so the oil can separate from the air molecules and return to a liquid state faster?
This was a good video.. Never realised the benefits were so wide spread not just with the oil system
Do u have to keep the factory oil pick up place or do u just remove it and then block it off when u go dry sump.
So, as far as the hose system between the engine and the tank, is there any ventilation, air in and out? Or is it a closed system? EDIT: You answered this, thanks.
I have a dry sump system off a sbc sprint car, im hoping to be able to use it on an rb 🙏 only cost me 2.5k.
Could it be worthwhile on an FA24 with all of there issues?
Great video as always, especially the coclusion at the end about 'do you need it.'
Keep in mind that the TCR racing class requries that the OEM wetsump is maintained (for cost reasons mostly,) As is the case for all production basesd rally classes.
Drysump is indeed best, but as you say, if you're not hainvg issues, $10k spent elsewhere will likley make you go faster.
Any wet sump class is basically dumb!!
@@ldnwholesale8552 k
If the dry sump saves a blown engine due oil pressure related bearing failure there goes the cost savings arguement
A couple of tips I've often repeated for years now . For inducing vacuum inside the engine , use the diesel version of the alternator . These come with a vacuum pump for a brake servo . I typically run Denso for their quality bearings and seals . Simply connect from breather to catch can and if you want to run total loss ignition etc., to reduce engine alternator drag during racing , add a switching circuit / resistor and diode to disconnect the field coil . Switch back on to recharge battery while tinkering in the pits . You will have to add another oil pressure line for the vacuum pump but most oil filter etc., adapters have plenty . Tip 2 , My D/S tanks have a 12 v motor driven centrifuge for air/oil mixture for positive seperation and yes , more vacuum drawn from the dry sump region instead of breather as with the alternator vacuum pump . This ensures a slight vacuum across the scavenge ports in the sump to induce flow to the scavenge stages and does not rely on a piece of bent pipe fitted tangentially in the top of the tank . These small 12v centrifuges are readily sourced and made from lightweight materials that withstand oil air mix temps and fits inside the carbon fibre top of the dry sump tanks but that little secret I'll keep to myself .
I'll add another engine safeguard tip . Low/ failed oil pressure ignition cut out switch . I use an Accel Harley Davidson hydraulic brake light switch ( its 1/8 NPT to go straight into an oil pressure adapter port ,but any hydraulic BLS will do ) in my engine ignition relay circuit so a) the engine won't start until enough pressure switches the hydraulic brake light to on position and b) cuts ignition immediately it falls below around 4-5 PSI and can save massive damage to the engine .
Really informative & interesting. A dry sump is definitely on my dream wish list of parts.
It is very expensive but how does it compare price wise on a Skyline compared to buying an accumulator, lines, catch can, head drain, crank collar and uprated pump etc? Is it much more? I assume so because it's still rarely done, despite seeming a much better system 🤔🤔
Keep up the great work 👍🏻😎
Well set up wet sump system is 6-7K for everything. Dry sump 13-15K for everything
And from that point, it can follow you from car to car, most of it is of a generic style that can go any where.
Stupid question. Do you need to consider the height of the oil tank when mounting, like you would a coolant expansion bottle? If it's too high relative to the engine, for example, could you see oil flow back into the sump past the pump under gravity when all is switched off?
The oil will gravity feed the line but oil has to a pump then a filter and oil cooler. All of which is generally higher than the pan.
Trying to better understand the pumping loses, you said the piston is helped by a vacuum on the “intake” and “ignition” strokes. What about “compression” and “exhaust” stokes does the vacuum not not cause pumping loses on these piston “up” strokes. Does this mostly cancel out as when one piston is moving up there is another piston moving down across a 6 piston engine?
The pressurized air is just leagues worse I'm pretty sure
So couple of questions, if you don't need a catch can why do the covers have fittings on the top? Also with having vacuum in the block wouldn't it make it harder for the pistons to go up since the vacuum helps pull the pistons down?
Some people run catch can and don't care about the vacuum. Some run lines from tank to cam cover as mentioned. Its not so much vacuum pulling it down but rather eliminating the positive pressure resisting it. On the compression stroke is where it matter most
@@MotiveVideo oh ok thanks that makes sense
You do need a catch can. One from each rocker cover and one from the tank. 3/4" ID. You should never get any oil in there but you will get water vapour. Block those breathers and you get a vaccuum real quick and then nothing works. Negative pressure yes, vaccuum no
What about the vacuum when the piston comes back up? Does it slow that down also
Its not huge amounts of vaccum. The whole idea is more that it removes the positive pressure acting on the pistons
Motive Video ohh right.. thanks 👍
Random question... But what happed to project erubisu? Remember watching the series and then it just disappeared
So are we going to see that Green R34 swapped any time soon? It's been awhile since you said we were going to see it shortly?
Sadly that car has been sold my friend. I believe someone in Maatouks crew has it if I remember correctly.
@@attesaawdlife922 I know it's been sold and sold but he said in a video awhile back that we would go see it and get a update.
We dont own it so we cant control it. Also covid and were busy with our cars and paid corporate work.
Does the engine performance outweigh the added weight? (no pun intended)
I agree a dry sump oil system is better and you show it makes more power but I bs the whole idea of vacuum in the crank case affecting the pistons. As some pistons go down others go up so the volume of the crankcase doesn't change. As far as ring seal you show 10 inches of mercury, about 5 psi. The pressure on top of the piston is what 500? Or 800 psi? That 5 psi of pressure is so small it doesn't matter. I think removing air from the crankcase does some good by letting the oil fall to the bottom of the pan instead of being suspended in the air and whipping around the crankshaft causing drag.
Biggest disadvantage for putting one of these in a street car for me would be putting that de-aeration oil tank somewhere - it should be obvious to anyone following your explanation but it needs to be oriented as shown or it simply wont work. Not many places on a Skyline to put that bar the boot.
🙏🏼
what happens to the oil in the tank when car sits?
it sits there like in a normal sump
More for me to spend money on 🙇
you guys didn't mention anything about baffle pans? it would of been good to demonstrate how you can make a wet sump better.
Thats a different video
Ross Performance needs to make a dry sump conversion kit for the VR38DETT and the VR30DDTT
Looking at the price of the R34 GTRs now.
I would rather spend 400K on building a track weapon R35 now or the upcoming Nissan 400Z
@@satchitananda1820 Man you are prob hiding under a rock. Nissan has used the R35 for races like the Super GT500, FIA GT1 and GT3 class of racing and the chassis is still based off the street going R35 but for the classes, they only run RWD setups and they are also limited to the 2L Inline 4 turbo engine but still putting out 500-600bhp.
you dont even understand why GTR have the tendency to understeer.
The main reason isnt the AWD setup since the ATTESA is setup to be rear biased all the time.
It because the heavy cast iron engine sits right on top of the front diff in the Skyline GTR series. The R35 VR38DETT engine still sits on top of the front wheel axles.
LMAO at your AWD only for rally.
There is a big reason why the R32 GTR was named Godzilla. The RB26DETT combined with the AWD ATTESA and all wheel steering setup puts the RWD V8 Australian Supercars to shame and which the Skyline GTR got banned from racing in the Australian Endurance races.
Go do your research on GTRs before you talk crap to me
@@satchitananda1820 look at who was driving the GTR R35, that was a Porsche conducted test and the NSX-R was driven by a ex-professional driver Motoharu Kurosawa. So it wasnt a fair fight to begin with.
Look at the time recorded by Toshio Suzuki and Horst von Saurma.
@@satchitananda1820 Again you are missing the point. any car is setup to understeer for safety reasons
The Supra which you said is a Front engine RWD setup will understeer. Why? Is because the engine is heavy and front forward the front axles
Weight balance, suspension and tire setup also plays a part in making a balanced car. NOT just for racing.
@@satchitananda1820 if you dont want to look stupid stop posting. Coz i already have friends in the car community laughing at you.
@@satchitananda1820 congrats you earn the medal of stupid.
One of the biggest benefits comes from the increased oil volume, the oil is worked less and spends less time in the engine because of the bigger volume and separated tank, lines and pump so temperatures are reduced.
Sort of. A cooling system always reaches saturation point. Only an oil cooler or multiple helps bring temps down
Increased capacity just takes longer to heat up. Also longer to fool down.
The long corners starvation is 99% of the time due to insufficient / inappropriate drainage from the head back to the sump - the only inline engine I know of that has excellent drainage from the factory is the 2JZ. Every other engine I own (RB25, RB30, 4AGE, and various others) have inferior/insufficient drainage and need moderately serious modifications to the head and/or block to get the oil down fast enough. Even at only 0.9G if you sustain that for long enough at high enough RPM you'll get oil starvation not because of the wet sump, but because the head is flooded/full - the oil delivery to the head at high RPM is fairly fast and gravity works well if there's enough of a direct path back, but under any Gs you're at best using 50% of your drainage paths, or worst case, none of them because they're all on one side or whatever for a given engine. With proper drainage (most OEMs fail at this) and sump design (most OEMs approximate this) wet sumps can work very well even on a hard core engine-killing sweeper.
Ie, that issue is not unique to the junk-SR20 engine, it affects almost all of them, minus 2JZ.
I wrote all that paused about 5 minutes in, you got to, but failed to cover in enough detail, the head drainage issues a little later. Around 12:00 or so you say sustained throttle causes oil starvation - that's false, it's sustained RPM, eg 1st gear at 70kph and very light throttle or going down a steep hill will do it, too.
13:45 again, 2JZ has a superior oil pump design that can handle almost anything, and all the rest do not. Limiter bashing kills them, and sheer high RPM can, too. Some are worse than others, but most of them are not ideal for rev limiters and/or 10000 RPM setups.
20:00 vacuum pulling down on piston power stroke is good, true, but on the flip side it's pulling down on the piston during the compression and exhaust strokes, too, so no, that's not what pumping losses are.
27:30 or so, why does it swirl around the outside? Same reason your vacuum cleaner does! Centrifugal force drives the heavy particles (dust, dirt, hairs, rocks, food) to the outside as it spins around in there, leaving the light stuff (air) in the middle to be picked up cleanly by the suction pump. In this case, it's not being pumped out the top it's venting naturally, but having clear air in the middle at the top to do that is beneficial for obvious reasons.
👍👍
I have to choose between my car, or a few dry sump lines by themselves, ill have to stick with my car for now :)
💪👍💯
jet 200 jet 200 jet 200 bring back jet 200
what the fark thats insane
Could also add another stage too the pump hooked upto the head drain.. Then your 5min full throttle runs at who knows where wouldn't be a issue😂
The GM and Ford Nascar blocks use an enclosed camshaft to keep the valve train oil away from the crank. This is suctioned by one of the dry sump pump stages.
So it is just better in every way? I'll put it on my civic now I guess.
One fact is incorrect sort of.
With the vacuum in the engine helping the piston to desend. This is in a way incorrect. The vacuum is not directed at the piston. Is is in the entire engine cavity. The only way it will help a piston stroke is because it reduces the actual air volume content within that cavity. Creating less air pressure the piston has to overcome on its decent.
WHICH is voided by the piston needing to assend. Where the piston has to work against the vacuum on it's way up creating MORE vacuum pressure inside the cavity.
So it is more the air resistance reduction that causes the benefit.
You need vacuum regulator on the cam covers, otherwise crank/cams oil seal rips pop in.
Not on all applications you dont.
darn what kind of braided hose you all use???? in that their high dollar stuff this link is foe high end hose www.motionindustries.com/products/sku/00332265
did a quick skim of the comments and didn't see anybody ask, so I'll toss mine out there:
A dry sump would assumedly be total overkill for daily driving duties, but in the case of an RB and their oil issues, and with consideration of their rising prices, would a dry sump be a good install on say, a daily-driven R34 sedan with an NA RB25, purely with durability and future-proofing in mind?
"How dry sump oil systems work". Fixed your title.
That's what's in the image, just not the title....
G'Day,
First,,,drive reduction is done because pump will cavitate as oil is too thick to run,,,so slow revs allows oil to get in to pump,,,Once in pump gear dia and size will determine litres per rev,,,
Now Making your oil too cold can undo what oil tech designed out of it,,,20 W 50 has to be a certain temp to porform as a 50 wieght oil,,,,too cold and you are running a 20 weight oil,,
Not good for big loads,,
and the other thing,,oil does a lot more cooling than you think,,so getting temp from cooler is very important,,so becarful on how you drain to sump,and from where,,No oil running down inside of block reduces temp transfer to oil,,Now ya don't wany it to run to hot now do we,,,and remember most of us only measure water temp,,and genrally only in one spot,,
More to this than meets the eye,,,
Sounds like an RB problem...
For any motorsport dry sumping is far more important than most other bling shit. Because you can drive the car without watching the oil pressure guage.
OHC will always be more difficult, really needs its own pump stage. And pan!!
Some engines are better suited than others, but all are better off. A scavenge pump does not like to suck air, so a windage tray, scrapers etc are required to direct the aerated oil to the scavenge. Dry sump is simply a misnomer, they are still very wet!! The object is to reduce the volume.An angle to the engines left is required with a screen above to collect the oil. IF everything is correct only 2 scavenge stages are really required. Though the more rpm may negate that.
Many go out of their way to screw up the system. Often with 'bling' shit that restricts oil collection and sometimes the pressure in to the engine . Every 90 deg fitting costs 10lb, and that with 3/4ID fittings. So the less corners the better, in or out.
Belt driven pumps are the simplest,, but not really that reliable. Look at a Sprintcar and they are all driven off the cam. Though in turn that loads up the cam!!
I have seen tooth belts fail too often. Those scavenges need screens or it will jam the pump with valve train crap. And stones ofcourse will break the belts, or damage them. They have a limited life, make sure you have a couple of spares. And inspect after every start. The drives off the crank too can be more than suspect.
And that Stupidcar pan is 'how to waste money' Something they could save tens of thousands on. Hundreds. ??Simple 3 or 4 stage pump and an off the shelf pan and tank. They just wank themselves stupid!! For a 10-1 gunker with 7500 rpm. Nascar use 9500 with the simple stuff. Sprintcars run 9500 with simple stuff. Nuff said!!
Many modern tanks to me are too big a diameter. A tall skinny tank is better than a short squat one.
Running the tank in the boot too is dumb. It can work but far more difficult. And costs far more power and reliability. Tank should be close to the engine with the outlet slightly above the pump inlet. All dry sumping 101.
Someone needs to make a good quality dry sump kit but around 2-3k, it’s possible, there’s nothing overly complex in design or manufacturing of the pumps or tanks. 8k is just to expensive for what you get. You don’t need the expensive billet cam covers etc.
You cant even buy a good external pump for 2K let along the entire kit
The lines and fittings are 3K alone
Real motorsport stuff aint cheap
Buy if you think it can be done then do it. 100% you cant. You get what you pay for with cars.
First
Can you daily drive a dry sump oil system?
Some sports cars come factory dry sump