THANK YOU for "The harp is not a piano" tip. As a harpist I have often the impression that many pieces were written on a piano and then putted on a harp stand. I strongly suggest C. Salzedo's Book: Modern Study of the Harp. He was one of the greatest harp virtuoso, pianist and great composer for that instrument. The first half of the book is actually dedicated to composers, and he explains all the problems/advantages of the harp explaing a lot about effects and how to mark things in the music.
So glad this was useful! You are wise to be cautious at first when harp scoring - but keep in mind, no matter how much you try, you may still get it wrong here and there. I made a few blunders myself when scoring my recent harp concerto, so there's always more to learn...but don't let that stop you. Ultimately, you're going to have to score for it, so do your best and fix the mistakes as you go.
Yep, this is where my problem is: Harp writing. That's why i typically avoid the harp when writing, because I'm still trying to figure out how exactly to notate pedal changes and where. This video was helpful, and some texts i have read are helpful as well, but i really need to contact a professional harpist. Thank you again, Thomas.
thanks to elisa and th. Goss. I avoid harp but i know it can really make an orch sound fabulous so i will read adler and look for salzedo's book. I am completely clueless to harp performance. this seems to be a really necessary instrument to write for.
Josh Layne made a great video on pedal changes (camera looking at his heels facing towards the instrument), complete with a chromatic octaves exercise which shows excellent pedal technique using both heels and soles: Pedal Changes! Harp Tuesday episode 55
Hey Jim - of course, one can reduce any mathematical problem to a subroutine that works it out for you. But I've found that it's not always sufficient for harpists. An experienced orchestrator has know how and why things work, and what approach his musicians have. It's not always safe to rely solely on things like the harp pedaling plug-in, not without verifying how it's worked things out, and editing what's there in a way that's useful in to a player. That's what craft is all about.
Once I tried (out of curiosity) this plug-in (Sibelius Software) but the result was that the tuning was indicated at the moment of playing, or as we say in Bulgaria: 'to put a hoodie after the rain'. So I prefer to count and write it myself.
You're very welcome, and don't forget to read the other tips that I linked to in the info - they might be helpful to you when you're scoring for a live player!
Many harpists (I, for one) learned the pedal names from the center of the instrument, out, so B,C,D for the left foot and E, F, G, and A for the right. It's not a minor point, since we depend on some semblance of cogency by the person arranging for the instrument.
Sure, and of course I directly illustrate that harpists think this way by reproducing a diagram written by a harpist. However, composers don't have to think exactly like harpists to get things right (as in learning the order the same way, so long as the end result is the same). Composers should understand the relationship of the feet to the pedals in that the most central two pedals represent the most commonly used flats of Bb and Eb - and the next two pedals the most commonly used sharps of F# and C#. I probably could have emphasised that more thoroughly.
Great explanation! Thanks. Interesting that they’re laid out scalarly (if that’s a word) outward from a D-E break. Conceptually, it would seem easier to match key signatures, if they were laid out by the circle of fifths. So, it could be common flats on the left, and common sharps on the right. So, left to right: A E B - F C G D. No sharps nor flats: All pedals center (natural). Bb major: first two (B and E) up (flat) on the flat side (left). Or… A major: first three (F, C, and G) down (sharp) on the sharp side (right).
But the circle of 5ths is already built into the harp pedal system to a degree, and is easier than your proposal because it shares the duties between the feet instead of piling them all on one foot or another. The left foot gets Bb for the key of F, the right foot F# for the key of G. Then both feet can easily shift to the keys or Bb or D. For the key of A, both feet with the right foot able to adjust F# and G# at one go. Might I also point out that in harmonic minor tuning, the system also works pretty well. For instance, G minor with a flat on either side, but the C# leading tone under the left foot. So I would say, look at the ergonomics of the array, how the duties are shared between the feet, and trust the harpists who originally designed the system.
@@OrchestrationOnline, OK, that’s an interesting point. Good thought… That probably works better from a real-time performance perspective. Of course I’m not suggesting anybody change anything; just interesting to understand the performance dynamic.
While i am aware of that, i want to be able to figure these out right off the bat, which is why I'm doing a lot of studying and research. I taught myself orchestration for the most part, and i am pretty good at it (I'm no Ravel or Tchaikovsky) and I'm learning about the instruments section by section. Now, I'm on the harp.
Sibelius can automatically do the entire lot of it for you. All you should need to do is make sure the changes work. Thomas, is there any particular reason what I've just said is a bad idea?
I prefer to check pedal changes for myself. Once, just out of curiositu, I asked 'Sibelius Software' to type all these changes automaticaly. Well, the result was that all these changes were written at the last possible moment when you have to hear the new tunning. That was my first and only experiment.
nice video. also, some composers leave it up to the harpist to decide how to manage passages. for instance, in schoenberg's 'peallas und melisande', there is not one indication for pedal changes. i've talked to a few harpists, and some prefer that the composer leave it up to the performer.
Actually I would avoid double Flageolets played with one hand that is more a thing for solo and virtuoso literature and can be very tricky depending on the pitches combined. Two flageolets together one with the left and the other with the right hand is fine, if it is in a register where the right hand can easily reach down to (or the left hand reach up to and put the hand in a position where the knot point can be placed - too high is uncomfortable for the left hand.
Oh yeah, fair enough. Of course it's extremely useful to be able to do it by hand, but I figure if you're just starting out you can use the automatic feature as a learning tool. Use it, see what it did, and copy.
THANK YOU for "The harp is not a piano" tip. As a harpist I have often the impression that many pieces were written on a piano and then putted on a harp stand.
I strongly suggest C. Salzedo's Book: Modern Study of the Harp. He was one of the greatest harp virtuoso, pianist and great composer for that instrument. The first half of the book is actually dedicated to composers, and he explains all the problems/advantages of the harp explaing a lot about effects and how to mark things in the music.
Thank you so much Elisa for the suggestion. I found the book on IMSLP
thx very much ;)
oh yes the famous pieces for "harp or piano". What a nightmare.
So glad this was useful! You are wise to be cautious at first when harp scoring - but keep in mind, no matter how much you try, you may still get it wrong here and there. I made a few blunders myself when scoring my recent harp concerto, so there's always more to learn...but don't let that stop you. Ultimately, you're going to have to score for it, so do your best and fix the mistakes as you go.
2013, dang! Very glad this is still here.
Yep, this is where my problem is: Harp writing. That's why i typically avoid the harp when writing, because I'm still trying to figure out how exactly to notate pedal changes and where. This video was helpful, and some texts i have read are helpful as well, but i really need to contact a professional harpist.
Thank you again, Thomas.
thanks to elisa and th. Goss. I avoid harp but i know it can really make an orch sound fabulous so i will read adler and look for salzedo's book. I am completely clueless to harp performance. this seems to be a really necessary instrument to write for.
Josh Layne made a great video on pedal changes (camera looking at his heels facing towards the instrument), complete with a chromatic octaves exercise which shows excellent pedal technique using both heels and soles: Pedal Changes! Harp Tuesday episode 55
Hey Jim - of course, one can reduce any mathematical problem to a subroutine that works it out for you. But I've found that it's not always sufficient for harpists. An experienced orchestrator has know how and why things work, and what approach his musicians have. It's not always safe to rely solely on things like the harp pedaling plug-in, not without verifying how it's worked things out, and editing what's there in a way that's useful in to a player. That's what craft is all about.
Once I tried (out of curiosity) this plug-in (Sibelius Software) but the result was that the tuning was indicated at the moment of playing, or as we say in Bulgaria: 'to put a hoodie after the rain'. So I prefer to count and write it myself.
Thank you for so useful lesson!
You're very welcome, and don't forget to read the other tips that I linked to in the info - they might be helpful to you when you're scoring for a live player!
Many harpists (I, for one) learned the pedal names from the center of the instrument, out, so B,C,D for the left foot and E, F, G, and A for the right. It's not a minor point, since we depend on some semblance of cogency by the person arranging for the instrument.
Sure, and of course I directly illustrate that harpists think this way by reproducing a diagram written by a harpist. However, composers don't have to think exactly like harpists to get things right (as in learning the order the same way, so long as the end result is the same). Composers should understand the relationship of the feet to the pedals in that the most central two pedals represent the most commonly used flats of Bb and Eb - and the next two pedals the most commonly used sharps of F# and C#. I probably could have emphasised that more thoroughly.
Great explanation! Thanks.
Interesting that they’re laid out scalarly (if that’s a word) outward from a D-E break. Conceptually, it would seem easier to match key signatures, if they were laid out by the circle of fifths.
So, it could be common flats on the left, and common sharps on the right. So, left to right: A E B - F C G D.
No sharps nor flats: All pedals center (natural).
Bb major: first two (B and E) up (flat) on the flat side (left).
Or…
A major: first three (F, C, and G) down (sharp) on the sharp side (right).
But the circle of 5ths is already built into the harp pedal system to a degree, and is easier than your proposal because it shares the duties between the feet instead of piling them all on one foot or another. The left foot gets Bb for the key of F, the right foot F# for the key of G. Then both feet can easily shift to the keys or Bb or D. For the key of A, both feet with the right foot able to adjust F# and G# at one go. Might I also point out that in harmonic minor tuning, the system also works pretty well. For instance, G minor with a flat on either side, but the C# leading tone under the left foot. So I would say, look at the ergonomics of the array, how the duties are shared between the feet, and trust the harpists who originally designed the system.
@@OrchestrationOnline, OK, that’s an interesting point. Good thought… That probably works better from a real-time performance perspective.
Of course I’m not suggesting anybody change anything; just interesting to understand the performance dynamic.
Thanx a LOT for this! I'm looking forward to owning the GREAT Harp that is part of "Symphonic Sphere" from Orchestral Tools.
Dude this is great. Thanks
Cheers, Basia!
Thank you for this informative video!
This format (of tips) is very good ! congratulations ! Suggestion of tip : accompanying singers with strings (or orchestra) : rhythm and harmony :)
Wow, great video, thak you so much for sharing.
Thats opened up a few doors for me , thank you
While i am aware of that, i want to be able to figure these out right off the bat, which is why I'm doing a lot of studying and research.
I taught myself orchestration for the most part, and i am pretty good at it (I'm no Ravel or Tchaikovsky) and I'm learning about the instruments section by section. Now, I'm on the harp.
Thank you very much, this video proves very usefull!
This is a little confusing. Harp notation, that is.
Sibelius can automatically do the entire lot of it for you. All you should need to do is make sure the changes work.
Thomas, is there any particular reason what I've just said is a bad idea?
I prefer to check pedal changes for myself. Once, just out of curiositu, I asked 'Sibelius Software' to type all these changes automaticaly. Well, the result was that all these changes were written at the last possible moment when you have to hear the new tunning. That was my first and only experiment.
nice video. also, some composers leave it up to the harpist to decide how to manage passages. for instance, in schoenberg's 'peallas und melisande', there is not one indication for pedal changes. i've talked to a few harpists, and some prefer that the composer leave it up to the performer.
Right, yes.
You can still read each tip of the day - just click on the links in the sidebar, and you can read them without having a Facebook account.
Bless you!!!
"i want to be able to figure these out right off the bat" could you elaborate, I'm not quite sure what you mean?
Actually I would avoid double Flageolets played with one hand that is more a thing for solo and virtuoso literature and can be very tricky depending on the pitches combined. Two flageolets together one with the left and the other with the right hand is fine, if it is in a register where the right hand can easily reach down to (or the left hand reach up to and put the hand in a position where the knot point can be placed - too high is uncomfortable for the left hand.
Oh yeah, fair enough. Of course it's extremely useful to be able to do it by hand, but I figure if you're just starting out you can use the automatic feature as a learning tool. Use it, see what it did, and copy.
thank you :) !
Hello Thomas, can you please tell me what music you used in the beginning of the video? Thank you.
+Aspiring Pianist Milhaud's Harp Concerto. Gotta read the credits! :)
Without the automatic stuff, so i could be able to notate by hand (i make orchestral sketches by hand) and without the computer.
thanks i wasnt even aware that harps had those pedals