John Hamer has been my go-to for a fair amount of Christian teachings. Don’t tell anyone, but I don’t really consider myself a true Christian - certainly not a practicing one. With that being said I find Hamer’s sermons genuinely fascinating and engaging. He puts forth a lot of his time into his presentation, and you can tell. I truly appreciate him. (Rant over)
In college I knew this RLDS kid who often got angry when people said Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. However, we (him included) finally figured out that his understanding of the two Joseph Smiths who founded his church had been conflated all that time. He didn't know that the polygamous Joseph Smith who founded the original movement was the father of the RLDS' Joseph Smith.
The entire house of Israel was born from a polygamist family. Jesus Christ was the "son of David" who was a polygamist. In 2nd Samuel 12:8 God himself gave David (many wives.) Marriage was as a commandment given to Adam to multiply the earth. David did the same through his many wives after God set up his polygamy. Jacobs second polygamist wife (Rachiel) died at child birth after birthing and completing the 12th son of Jacob! Yes, the 12 tribes. She sacrificed her own life to complete Israel number 12. See Genesis 37:9-11 which declares that Rachiel was symbolized by the harvest (moon.) Revelation 12 says that women now in heaven symbolizes "the moon" and also "the number 12" This polygamist wife becomes a type for Christs bride to return to this latterday earth and give birth to God's kingdom. Rachiel becomes a direct type and fulfillment of the latter-day "bride of Christ" with 12 stars on her crown. The polygamist bride who was married to Jacob now marries Christ. Therefore, Joseph Smith had no choice but to start the church with polygamy. Thus! Restored Israel had to start out with polygamist marriages to fulfill the prophecies of the harvest moon. God's harvest of the earth today. To prove this on your Bible click TH-cam video titled "Book of Abraham part 7" click my name (Paul Gregersen) to get there. Joseph had no choice but to fulfill the prophecies and restore ALL things as Peter prophesied. False polygamy in small groups such as Warren Jeff's are Satan's counterfeits to deflect and poison true Abrahamic polygamy. Therefore a denial of true biblical polygamy is a denial of (God's family Israel) who were all born of polygamy.
@@andrewsuryali8540 yes Joseph Fielding Smith (nephew of Joseph Smith Jr) ended up in Utah and was President of the LDS Church. He was polygamous. However Joseph Smith Jr (founder of the Latter Day Saint movement and father of Joseph Smith III) was not polygamous.
Hey John! You have done excellent work. You have elucidated history, philosophy and sacred mythology, with verve, insight and compassion. I am grateful, and clearly other people are too. You are loved xxx
Great presentation. Thank you for doing this lecture, and others. This issue is so polarizing and heated for Mormons, to the point of drag out fights within families to this day. I am from the Utah church, and also have the fortune or misfortune of being extremely curious, so I have been off the traditional narratives for decades. Yet I still have to find a way to get along with everyone else that 'matters' to me. In other words, I am not losing my wife, kids or friends and all that over opinions of religion such as who exactly speaks for God, Jesus, Buddha or Vishnu. This provides a framing that helps me keep my sanity from all the turmoil around this an it is extremely nice to see it done in a way that is devoid of extreme emotional charges. Thank you
It's sad that it can be so traumatizing if somebody decides they don't believe in this religion. They lose their faith, family in many cases, and friends.
I am so sorry that this is part of your history. It is very brave of you to tell this story. You have kept your goodness, intelligence, and Christianity through it all and now make a wonderful contribution to the world. I listen to all of your lectures despite being a mainstream protestant and enjoy them very much
“One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa, was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the worshiped and lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments, and authorities, upon "President Brigham Young"! The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham's power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years after- ward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a "revelation" which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death.” Mark Twain (Roughing it, pgs. 307)
You’re sorry about polygamy when there’s polyamorous troubles the presenter is in a homosexual marriage, and the president of the United States thinks that boys can turn into girls?
To me, knowing very little about this topic or sect, it was a very interesting talk. Riveting actually. However, it felt stressful also from the very beginning. I think one reason was that women, except maybe Emma, were never humanized, or really discussed. Smith was, even by the standards of his day, preying on women. At one point in the talk, his death was mentioned as a martyrdom. Maybe the second cause for my feeling of stress while listening to this is the awkward position that an apparently ethical historian/clergyman in a religion that started like this finds himself in. It is painfully uncomfortable. But this speaker forged ahead as best he could under the circumstances. Maybe, had the girls and women in this terrible story been more fully acknowledged, the story would have been too hard to tell.
@@elemze56 You obviously die not listen to the video. Joseph Smith was a polygamist, see Todd Compton's " in sacred loneliness" book for a rather comprehensive list of his wives, their journal entries, etc. But of course, Joseph lied about it, and he lied to Emma about it, as these were basically sexual affairs. He basically did old Testament Tinder dates.
@@elemze56he did practice polygamy but he also didn’t because these weren’t as much as marriages as he just stuck it in which ever young beautiful woman he wanted to. You’re going to say he denounced it while his close friend Brigham young had like 50 something wives? The founder of the biggest Latter Day Saint movement to date and the state of Utah which is literally Mormonville USA. Don’t be naive. Joseph smith also said he found some golden plates out in the woods and that the native Americans are lost tribes of Israel all of which is easily disproven by DNA so let’s not start from a place of thinking ole Joey was above telling a fib for personal gain
Those are lies and gossip...no real proof that Joseph Smith ever committed adultery. Temple Lot Suit Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published at Kirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845.... There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed.... The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852. Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done .... The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ... It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ... A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith. In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.] It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding." In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff. No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
While I'm not a member of the (R)LDS church, or any church for that matter, I'm consistently impressed by John's fealty to the truth. He doesn't allow his religious convictions to impinge upon his responsibilities as a historian. As someone who is only beginning to take his first tentative steps beyond a strictly materialist, atheistic worldview, I find his ability to maintain a careful balance between religious and academic truth to be a source of inspiration for my own spiritual journey.
I'm 12 minutes in and you're discussing historiogrophy and the importance of contemporary sources when referencing events in their own time. You know what wasn't recorded for over 10 years after the event? The first relevations of Joseph Smith and him being visited by an angel. He kept a private journal at that time but for some reason didn't mention any of that. He also didn't tell anyone else for over 10 years. Very odd, indeed. I'm glad that you're not a member of the LDS Church! Keep the good videos coming!
Hi John. Early in the podcast, you talk of the LDS Church "misunderstanding" their identity narratives as presumed history. Do you believe these are really innocent "misunderstandings" or could they be intentional fabrications created to support a desired narrative? For example, claiming the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood by Peter, James, and John many years after the supposed event without a date or any detail to corroborate it.
John, good info my friend. Once totally into the reformation until the age of 75, I left Mormonism seven years ago because of my cognitive dissonance. I'm a retired professor of English and Spanish, yet it was my preparation for teaching sections of Old and New Testament that lead to me to becoming an agnostic leaning toward atheism. I wanted nothing to do with God or Jesus that I found in either testament. Dan Barker's GODLESS and GOD: The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction kind of killed my respect for the testaments as inspired literature. I wasn't long before the BoM and the Pearl of Great Price did the same things to me relating to texts I once held sacred. I am still a student of the Bible and Mormon scripture; however, I do so from the point of literary and historical criticism. At present, I'm read Park's Kingdom of Nauvoo that you recommended. It wonderful to be acquainted with someone has been rooted the two major factions of the restoration and whose candor I respect. Thanks, my friend! Barry
Jacob 2 strongly condemns polygamy, going as far as to say it's the main reason Lehi and his family were brought out of Jerusalem. In other words, God could only weed out the deeply entrenched practice through starting over so that subsequent generations would be untouched by it. This begs the question of why Joseph Smith would introduce the practice to his own Church if he, presumably the author of the Book of Mormon, had condemned it using such strong language.
This has always been an issue for me as well. It does not make sense to me that Smith would be involved with polygamy given what the Book of Jacob says about it. There are some people who try to counter this by saying that the Book of Jacob states that God can command polygamy. However, that is not actually what it says. When you go back to the first chapter and read that in conjunction with the 2nd chapter, it becomes clear that what is really being said is that if God wants to raise up a righteous people, he will command them...as in, he will give them laws to live by - not that he will command them to take multiple wives.
It is an interesting conundrum. I don't recall Jacob condemning polygamy-but condemning cheating. There's a major difference. Joseph Smith makes it clear that polygamy is an eternal law, which makes me question why they ever took it away if that is true? I think that the church is too scared to address it now, which is a shame.
It's interesting, because Joseph Smith may have been using Jacob 2:30 as justification for his doctrine of "Celestial Marriage", but this is a misreading of the text. It is actually saying the opposite. It reads... "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people;" People read this and think it's saying, "I will command my people [to practice polygamy.]" But in the context of the rest of the chapter, one realizes it is saying the opposite. It's saying "I will command my people, [otherwise they will backslide into doing what they did in Jerusalem, i.e., polygamy.]" Read the chapter more than once if you have to. The "I will command my people" line means the opposite of what is commonly held. But Joseph Smith misread it himself, which begs the question: How could Joseph Smith misinterpret his own writing? Did he author the Book of Mormon or not?
Jacob 2:30 is just summarizing what was said earlier: "24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. "25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. 26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old."
Yes, so many good questions brought up. I feel that the more revelation I seek, the more questions I have. It's nice to know there are others also asking the same questions. There definitely seems to be a distinction between what Jacob said, what Joseph said, and what prophets of old did...
This is such an interesting topic. My wife has had her name removed from the Brighamite Church BECAUSE she thinks Joseph never practiced. But whether he did or didn't, how do folks reconcile that Abraham and Jacob ("good men") definitely did? Is that just . . . good for the time? What's that God is the same yesterday/today/forever business? I find polygamy to be an inherently dangerous practice that seems to go hand-in-hand with the erosion of the rights of women, but in a modern society where those rights are protected at a high level, I guess you can go do it if you really want to.
The contortions caused by ideology and religion are fascinating! What someone will do to deceive others and ultimately themselves is purely human as is religion. Let's give Joseph his props; he found a way to do what most men only dream of.
Here is the reason, why Christ hasn't returned yet: He spake unto his disciples "the truth will set you free" and he warned them of false prophets. And then he had to recognise: It's hopeless.
In the 1990s, Relief Society teachers would often teach LDS women that JS was only married to Emma Smith. They further denied polygamy or polyandry. Back then there was little accurate information for lay persons on the history of plural marriage. The LDS church website today does acknowledge the involvement of JS and alleges he had 33 wives. They even 14 year old Fanny Alger whom JS married in 1835. There is more discussion of the Kirtland and Nauvoo periods and the birth of plural marriage as a doctrine. Transparency is a good thing for LDS and CC members since you can lean more of your church heritage.
Interesting how none of these wives had any kids with Joseph. You’d think with 33+ wives there would be kids, lots of them. There are no birth certificates naming Joseph as the father, and none of these so called wives or kids show up in the US Census records either. And DNA testing evidence shows Joseph only had children with Emma…hmmm 🤔
I find it interesting that the sixties are not allowed to have occurred sixty years ago in the US emotional vocabulary. Clearly we have decided to put, I will tally it at two, decades into the hands of someone else. I think this someone else is the adversary and that present time is attached to this unseemly gift.
It’s amazing to me that anyone believes in any sect of “Mormonism” or any religion based off of Joseph smiths golden tablets charade. There is an amazing super long multi part video series on mythvision (TH-cam channel name) where the channel owner Derek an ex Christian fundamentalist talks with two mormon historians who aren’t in the church and are relying only on historical fact and the stuff they got up to it is amazing to me and also petrifying that people believe this stuff
Agreed. It's like . . . did Joseph find magic rocks to translate a golden book? Very improbable, like . . . did Noah put 2 of every kind on his little boat, or did a dead guy pop up out of a tomb 3 days after most certainly being dead. Religion is full to wishful thoughts, some more ridiculous than others.
What is The difference between the LDS and the RLDS? And the polygamy is now obviously out there. But is this guy going to address all the other issues with LDS beliefs? Is he going to admit that Smith made up the whole BOM and that he is a false prophet? One has to wonder why he could go only part of the way with the problems in the Mormon belief system.
Try the words of the Book of Mormon against the standard of the Bible...you will find the doctrines agree. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God who worshipped Jesus Christ and translated the Book of Mormon from plates of brass preserved over time by the hand of God. The Book of Mormon is complimentary to the Bible and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ...the only name whereby we can be saved. After Joseph Smith was murdered in June of 1844, Brigham Young led many saints to SLC, Utah...while many others did not go (including Emma Smith, Joseph's only wife). Brigham Young was a false teacher and prophet who introduced several abominable practices into his denomination, including polygamy, men becoming Gods, God once being a man, blood atonement of men, a heavenly mother, and secret penal oath temple rituals. He corrupted the true History of the Church to pretend that those teachings came from Joseph Smith in order to gain support....and many today are still under that deception.
@@joesimpson9230 I've seen and heard and read too much information from sources I personally trust to ever believe in the fables written by Smith. He is known to have married many women, and even very underaged girls. Many of these "wives" were already married. Trying to blame Brigham Young isn't going to convince some people who have seen what many experts have said regarding the total lack of any single artifact or proof of any kind that the people and places, as well as animals and plants, ever existed in the Americas. Smith got the facts all wrong, and wasn't thinking about the lack of anything real being discovered to prove his works of fiction. Probably because he was young. He was most certainly no prophet. Neither are any of the so called "prophets". It's all rather sad, if a little darkly amusing. He also borrowed heavily from the actual bible. I am not here to try to change anybody else's religion, but think it's sad that children are brought up believing in all the untruths. The Christians say that it's not even a Christian faith, because Mormons believe you have to do more than just accept the gift Jesus gave... His life for an afterlife. The Mormons think it takes more than the grace of Christ.
Your slide at 15:23 sounds like cautions against "ontological gerrymandering". The concept comes from "social constructionist" sociologists who study social problems, whether they be historical or the present day. I imagine religious historians also face the same dilemma.
plural marriage is not polygamy and polygamy is not plural marriage. Joseph Smith did NOT practice polygamy. He practiced plural marriage......they are not the same.
Actually, he practiced neither. The Community of Christ, like the LDS, is just run by secret societies so they lie. Temple Lot Suit Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published at Kirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845.... There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed.... The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852. Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done .... The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ... It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ... A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith. In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.] It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding." In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff. No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
No where in Marks statement does he indicate that Smith initially practiced polygamy and now changed his mind about it. You are putting words in his mouth. Come on, historian!
Temple Lot Suit Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published at Kirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845.... There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed.... The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852. Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done .... The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ... It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ... A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith. In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.] It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding." In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff. No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
Sorry to burst your “Joseph Smith practiced polygamy” bubble, but Brigham Young admitted he started the doctrine of polygamy. So much for your “historical consensus.” In the Deseret News (July 1, 1874) Brigham Young is quoted in a speech he gave on June 21, 1874, saying he admits that he, not Joseph Smith, invented polygamy. Young reports that he had a vision of polygamy in England but never told Joseph: ”While we were in England (in 1839 or 1840, I think) the Lord manifested to me by vision and His spirit, things that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to anyone concerning them, until I returned to Nauvoo; JOSEPH HAD NEVER MENTIONED THIS; there had never been a thought of it in the church that I ever knew anything about at that time; but I had this for myself, and kept it for myself.” - The Messenger, Volume 1, page 29. Well no one need blame Joseph anymore, for Brigham Young is the self-confessed channel for which polygamy was given to his people.”
We are still cousins Professor Hamer, I kinda of miss the name Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the High Priesthood of the Smiths. But I understand cuz! Well said, not always debunking but pastoral, as balanced , not ignoring historical flaws and focus only on apologetics. Your Brighamite cuz does not have a problem with the prophet Joseph. Let's face it that was Emma doing re the extreme anti polygamy. Joseph Smith 3 may have been more refined but I loved the rougher stone brother Brigham just as I like Orin Porter Rockwell too. By ancestors were Scouts for brother Brigham. We loved brother Brigham. Levi served the prophet Joseph and transferred his alliance to Brigham. I appreciate your fair scholarship. Love your courses , I need to make good on a well deserved devotion. Emma was not fond of the less refined Brigham. She's a woman she probably said it and was telling the truth in her own mind. Woman have a way of construction of unwanted events. William was also a notorious liar. Less honorable than the other Smith brothers. That is immoral to raise families abandon the families. At least in the west the men went to prison or Mexico rather than abandoned their wives and children
Very true yet that was the purpose of modern society to raise the women to be unruly, and without any discipline or duty, in a matriarchal society, now take women from a patriarchal society that’s raised with duty to serve. And yes, I said, serve her husband there’s usually a far greater difference.
Such a good presentation! For anyone who wants to make this about Joseph vs. Brigham, I think it’s wrong to treat the “Brigham Young introduced polygamy” and “Joseph introduced polygamy” theories as mutually exclusive. Why can’t they both be partially true? I see it as possible for Brigham and Joseph to each have their own takes on polygamy, and to both have originated it secretly, and for them to both be wrong. It’s not like having multiple wives is that novel of an idea. It’s still possible that there was a conspiracy among (some of) the 12 and others to get rid of Joseph, especially if he was going to excommunicate them for their practice of polygamy, even if he himself originated a version of the practice within the church.
Look into what Joseph knew about ancient Irish society. The Irish had clan studs (often titled Eochaid, meaning horse) that would help infertile couples to conceive by way of natural insemination.
@@Stolas1777 Joseph knew a lot about his Irish ancestry and the contents of the annals. He descends from a line of royal historiographers in Ireland who maintained the annals for thousands of years.
@@derekpmoore Joseph was a Con artist treasure hunter that made Up a religion that’s easier to debunk than Islam which is an amazing feat in and of itself. There’s plenty of first hand documentation of him skipping out of loans and conning people, opening up brothels to make money, and being a polygamist along with Brigham young yet the LDS church denies it. Mormonism is a joke and anyone who believes it should be ridiculed
Do you watch Religion for Breakfast or Useful Charts? Because this channel has some overlap with topics those channels cover and that's how the algorithm runs.
The Community of Christ's willingness to lay open the history of the church in such an honest way seems very much in tune with the teaching of Christ Jesus.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. In the early church, members often got sealed to a Priesthood leader. Wilford Woodruff changed that in a talk given on April 18 1894 in the Salt Lake City Tabernacle. In part of his talk in the Law of Adoption Sealings, Wilford Woodruff stated the following: "...the duty that I want every man who presides over a Temple to see performed from this day henceforth and forever, unless the Lord Almighty commands otherwise, is, let every man be adopted to his father. When a man receives the endowment, adopt him to his father; [149] not to Wilford Woodruff, nor to any other man outside the lineage of his fathers. That is the will of God to this people. I want all men who preside over these temples in these mountains of Israel to bear this in mind." So Joseph Smith and other leaders were sealed to other women and members as part of the Law of Adoption, which were sealings BUT NOT marriages! Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist and thus John Dehlin spreads lies!
I appreciate all the work put into these videos. However, my opinion of organized religion will never change because all organized religion is just nice cultism, except when it's bad. Religion glosses over reality that can not be seen while in it's embrace. Religion is unnecessary for a happy and fulfilled life. Belief in deities and man servants of deities is as irrational as the men and women who claim to be those servants. Many cult leaders (and followers) are deluded or suffer from an obvious (or not so obvious) mental illness or personality disorder. Hopefully humans can deconstruct the short history of the invention of deities and their "representatives" in time, but I doubt it.
I listened to enough of this to make me want to puke. You said that we weren't hearing the words of Emma Smith but things that someone said she said. If you want to say that, then the New Testament is not the words of Christ, but things someone said he said. The Old Testament is not the words of God, but words they have said He said. This would wipe out all religion every everywhere. Can somebody please acknowledge some truth here? Why do Mormons call it the Aaronic priesthood? They call it the Aaronic priesthood because they can't call it by it's real name, The Levitical priesthood? Why can't they call it the Levitical priesthood? They can't call it The Levitical Priesthood because they are the sons of Joseph, not Levi. Aaron and Moses were Levites. The sons of Joseph cannot inherit the Levitical priesthood! Please, just acknowledge this truth for me. Also the eternal family lie. Jesus said that in the kingdom, there will be no marriage but people will be as the angels in heaven, going on to state that God is the God of the living, not the dead; thereby, also destroying your baptizing dead people crap, and people going on after they are dead. So, in essence, Emma never said what she said, Jesus never said what he said, Paul never said what he said, and God never said what he said. None of the OT prophets ever said what they said, none of the bible is real and all of your religions are BS. Which is what I believe. Yea, let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar!!! Please, for the love of God and everything holy, sit down and shut up!!!!! The whole idea of the New Covenant was that God would speak to us himself and tell us what he wants. Which is why the temple veil was ripped in half. We no longer need someone like you yelling us what to do and believe, but the Elohim, the Eternal Spirit God will teach us and lead us to all righteousness. Religion has been the downfall of the human race!!!!!!
John Hamer is talking as a historian. Indirect quotes and hearsay are of course less reliable than first hand accounts written down close to the events. The books of the Bible are of course second and third hand accounts.
@@charlesmendeley9823 Yes, and he is giving us his opinion using these second and third hand accounts. So, if the bible is second and third hand accounts, then none of them are true, right? That's why we must leave all religion. As God told Joseph, he told me: none of them are true!
He was born into the Mormon church, but converted to Community of Christ, another denomination within the greater Latter Day Restoration movement, which does not identify as "Mormon".
Well the Utah based latter day saints dont call themselves mormons because its offensive name to the new president/prophet. Even though they sent a couple of decades and 10 of millions of dollars to say they are the only true mormon church.
@@david-bl8lx Unfortunately, we don't always get to decide how others define us. Mormon will always be a good shorthand for "Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".
Professor Mike, I enjoy this lecture very much. The only difference between myself, your Brighamite cousins and yourself is I believe the prophet Joseph's revelations to these women. I believe the introductions of his doctrines, innovations and intellect, including, the book of Mormon, pearl of Great Price etc that lend credibility to the conference of princely grace. While on the other hand, you are not an antagonist , but have much doubt concerning his personal conduct. Thus, you followed the more sensible path which Emma eventually endorsed and lent her princily sons.
![30 ชั่วโมงคนเดียว บนรถไฟชั้น 3 โซเวียต [Around The World Ep. 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MlE9boAVqDA/mqdefault.jpg)
Being raised in the RLDS church I was taught Joseph didn't practice polygamy so this has been informative thanks
John Hamer has been my go-to for a fair amount of Christian teachings. Don’t tell anyone, but I don’t really consider myself a true Christian - certainly not a practicing one. With that being said I find Hamer’s sermons genuinely fascinating and engaging.
He puts forth a lot of his time into his presentation, and you can tell. I truly appreciate him.
(Rant over)
In college I knew this RLDS kid who often got angry when people said Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. However, we (him included) finally figured out that his understanding of the two Joseph Smiths who founded his church had been conflated all that time. He didn't know that the polygamous Joseph Smith who founded the original movement was the father of the RLDS' Joseph Smith.
The entire house of Israel was born from a polygamist family. Jesus Christ was the "son of David" who was a polygamist. In 2nd Samuel 12:8 God himself gave David (many wives.) Marriage was as a commandment given to Adam to multiply the earth. David did the same through his many wives after God set up his polygamy. Jacobs second polygamist wife (Rachiel) died at child birth after birthing and completing the 12th son of Jacob! Yes, the 12 tribes. She sacrificed her own life to complete Israel number 12. See Genesis 37:9-11 which declares that Rachiel was symbolized by the harvest (moon.) Revelation 12 says that women now in heaven symbolizes "the moon" and also "the number 12" This polygamist wife becomes a type for Christs bride to return to this latterday earth and give birth to God's kingdom. Rachiel becomes a direct type and fulfillment of the latter-day "bride of Christ" with 12 stars on her crown. The polygamist bride who was married to Jacob now marries Christ. Therefore, Joseph Smith had no choice but to start the church with polygamy. Thus! Restored Israel had to start out with polygamist marriages to fulfill the prophecies of the harvest moon. God's harvest of the earth today. To prove this on your Bible click TH-cam video titled "Book of Abraham part 7" click my name (Paul Gregersen) to get there. Joseph had no choice but to fulfill the prophecies and restore ALL things as Peter prophesied. False polygamy in small groups such as Warren Jeff's are Satan's counterfeits to deflect and poison true Abrahamic polygamy. Therefore a denial of true biblical polygamy is a denial of (God's family Israel) who were all born of polygamy.
@@andrewsuryali8540 yes Joseph Fielding Smith (nephew of Joseph Smith Jr) ended up in Utah and was President of the LDS Church. He was polygamous. However Joseph Smith Jr (founder of the Latter Day Saint movement and father of Joseph Smith III) was not polygamous.
@@Corinthians-pp3jf Joseph Smith Jr was absolutely a polygamist. Joseph Smith III was not, but it is well documented that his father was.
Hey John! You have done excellent work. You have elucidated history, philosophy and sacred mythology, with verve, insight and compassion. I am grateful, and clearly other people are too. You are loved xxx
I forgot to mention your outstanding scholarship. You have shown me, and others, how to be better teachers. Thank you so much x
No, he didn't. Poor quality evidence, baseless assertions, etc.
Great presentation. Thank you for doing this lecture, and others. This issue is so polarizing and heated for Mormons, to the point of drag out fights within families to this day. I am from the Utah church, and also have the fortune or misfortune of being extremely curious, so I have been off the traditional narratives for decades. Yet I still have to find a way to get along with everyone else that 'matters' to me. In other words, I am not losing my wife, kids or friends and all that over opinions of religion such as who exactly speaks for God, Jesus, Buddha or Vishnu.
This provides a framing that helps me keep my sanity from all the turmoil around this an it is extremely nice to see it done in a way that is devoid of extreme emotional charges. Thank you
It's sad that it can be so traumatizing if somebody decides they don't believe in this religion. They lose their faith, family in many cases, and friends.
I am so sorry that this is part of your history. It is very brave of you to tell this story.
You have kept your goodness, intelligence, and Christianity through it all and now make a wonderful contribution to the world.
I listen to all of your lectures despite being a mainstream protestant and enjoy them very much
“One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa, was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the worshiped and lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments, and authorities, upon "President Brigham Young"! The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham's power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years after- ward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a "revelation" which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death.” Mark Twain (Roughing it, pgs. 307)
You’re sorry about polygamy when there’s polyamorous troubles the presenter is in a homosexual marriage, and the president of the United States thinks that boys can turn into girls?
To me, knowing very little about this topic or sect, it was a very interesting talk. Riveting actually. However, it felt stressful also from the very beginning. I think one reason was that women, except maybe Emma, were never humanized, or really discussed. Smith was, even by the standards of his day, preying on women. At one point in the talk, his death was mentioned as a martyrdom. Maybe the second cause for my feeling of stress while listening to this is the awkward position that an apparently ethical historian/clergyman in a religion that started like this finds himself in. It is painfully uncomfortable. But this speaker forged ahead as best he could under the circumstances. Maybe, had the girls and women in this terrible story been more fully acknowledged, the story would have been too hard to tell.
Ethical and Clergyman are antithetical to being a Mormon.
Joseph Smith was a liar and a child rapist.
He was by definition, an Antichrist
I think it’s obvious they would deny ever practising polygamy for legal reasons
Joseph Smith Jr. was not a polygamist. In fact he denounced it.
@@elemze56 You obviously die not listen to the video. Joseph Smith was a polygamist, see Todd Compton's " in sacred loneliness" book for a rather comprehensive list of his wives, their journal entries, etc. But of course, Joseph lied about it, and he lied to Emma about it, as these were basically sexual affairs. He basically did old Testament Tinder dates.
@@elemze56he did practice polygamy but he also didn’t because these weren’t as much as marriages as he just stuck it in which ever young beautiful woman he wanted to. You’re going to say he denounced it while his close friend Brigham young had like 50 something wives? The founder of the biggest Latter Day Saint movement to date and the state of Utah which is literally Mormonville USA. Don’t be naive. Joseph smith also said he found some golden plates out in the woods and that the native Americans are lost tribes of Israel all of which is easily disproven by DNA so let’s not start from a place of thinking ole Joey was above telling a fib for personal gain
Thank you for this presentation. I’m LDS but have been slowly learning the CoC narrative and it’s fascinating to understand both points of view.
You'd think they could at least wait for a girl to be not "underage"!
Those are lies and gossip...no real proof that Joseph Smith ever committed adultery.
Temple Lot Suit
Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published at Kirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845....
There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation.
The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed....
The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852.
Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done ....
The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ...
It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ...
A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith.
In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.]
It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding."
In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff.
No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
While I'm not a member of the (R)LDS church, or any church for that matter, I'm consistently impressed by John's fealty to the truth. He doesn't allow his religious convictions to impinge upon his responsibilities as a historian. As someone who is only beginning to take his first tentative steps beyond a strictly materialist, atheistic worldview, I find his ability to maintain a careful balance between religious and academic truth to be a source of inspiration for my own spiritual journey.
I'm 12 minutes in and you're discussing historiogrophy and the importance of contemporary sources when referencing events in their own time. You know what wasn't recorded for over 10 years after the event? The first relevations of Joseph Smith and him being visited by an angel. He kept a private journal at that time but for some reason didn't mention any of that. He also didn't tell anyone else for over 10 years. Very odd, indeed.
I'm glad that you're not a member of the LDS Church! Keep the good videos coming!
Extraordinary honesty and wisdom presented here. I am humbled, inspired and informed. Deep bow.
Hi John. Early in the podcast, you talk of the LDS Church "misunderstanding" their identity narratives as presumed history. Do you believe these are really innocent "misunderstandings" or could they be intentional fabrications created to support a desired narrative? For example, claiming the restoration of the Melchizedek Priesthood by Peter, James, and John many years after the supposed event without a date or any detail to corroborate it.
John, good info my friend. Once totally into the reformation until the age of 75, I left Mormonism seven years ago because of my cognitive dissonance. I'm a retired professor of English and Spanish, yet it was my preparation for teaching sections of Old and New Testament that lead to me to becoming an agnostic leaning toward atheism. I wanted nothing to do with God or Jesus that I found in either testament. Dan Barker's GODLESS and GOD: The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction kind of killed my respect for the testaments as inspired literature. I wasn't long before the BoM and the Pearl of Great Price did the same things to me relating to texts I once held sacred. I am still a student of the Bible and Mormon scripture; however, I do so from the point of literary and historical criticism. At present, I'm read Park's Kingdom of Nauvoo that you recommended. It wonderful to be acquainted with someone has been rooted the two major factions of the restoration and whose candor I respect. Thanks, my friend! Barry
I vote to make ALL future lectures longer like this one!
Jacob 2 strongly condemns polygamy, going as far as to say it's the main reason Lehi and his family were brought out of Jerusalem. In other words, God could only weed out the deeply entrenched practice through starting over so that subsequent generations would be untouched by it. This begs the question of why Joseph Smith would introduce the practice to his own Church if he, presumably the author of the Book of Mormon, had condemned it using such strong language.
This has always been an issue for me as well. It does not make sense to me that Smith would be involved with polygamy given what the Book of Jacob says about it. There are some people who try to counter this by saying that the Book of Jacob states that God can command polygamy. However, that is not actually what it says. When you go back to the first chapter and read that in conjunction with the 2nd chapter, it becomes clear that what is really being said is that if God wants to raise up a righteous people, he will command them...as in, he will give them laws to live by - not that he will command them to take multiple wives.
It is an interesting conundrum. I don't recall Jacob condemning polygamy-but condemning cheating. There's a major difference. Joseph Smith makes it clear that polygamy is an eternal law, which makes me question why they ever took it away if that is true? I think that the church is too scared to address it now, which is a shame.
It's interesting, because Joseph Smith may have been using Jacob 2:30 as justification for his doctrine of "Celestial Marriage", but this is a misreading of the text. It is actually saying the opposite. It reads...
"For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people;"
People read this and think it's saying, "I will command my people [to practice polygamy.]" But in the context of the rest of the chapter, one realizes it is saying the opposite. It's saying "I will command my people, [otherwise they will backslide into doing what they did in Jerusalem, i.e., polygamy.]"
Read the chapter more than once if you have to. The "I will command my people" line means the opposite of what is commonly held. But Joseph Smith misread it himself, which begs the question: How could Joseph Smith misinterpret his own writing? Did he author the Book of Mormon or not?
Jacob 2:30 is just summarizing what was said earlier:
"24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
"25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old."
Yes, so many good questions brought up. I feel that the more revelation I seek, the more questions I have. It's nice to know there are others also asking the same questions. There definitely seems to be a distinction between what Jacob said, what Joseph said, and what prophets of old did...
Thank you.
This is such an interesting topic. My wife has had her name removed from the Brighamite Church BECAUSE she thinks Joseph never practiced. But whether he did or didn't, how do folks reconcile that Abraham and Jacob ("good men") definitely did? Is that just . . . good for the time? What's that God is the same yesterday/today/forever business?
I find polygamy to be an inherently dangerous practice that seems to go hand-in-hand with the erosion of the rights of women, but in a modern society where those rights are protected at a high level, I guess you can go do it if you really want to.
The contortions caused by ideology and religion are fascinating! What someone will do to deceive others and ultimately themselves is purely human as is religion. Let's give Joseph his props; he found a way to do what most men only dream of.
Here is the reason, why Christ hasn't returned yet: He spake unto his disciples "the truth will set you free" and he warned them of false prophets. And then he had to recognise: It's hopeless.
With so many Mormons running around believing the craziness in the Book of Mormon we are truly a lost group of people. It’s terrifying to me.
P.S. I'd like to see you apply your skills to Christian Science and its founder Mary Baker Eddy
It’s amazing how human these polygamists were! I’m not doing polygamy it’s wrong, oh she’s nice what was I saying
In the 1990s, Relief Society teachers would often teach LDS women that JS was only married to Emma Smith. They further denied polygamy or polyandry. Back then there was little accurate information for lay persons on the history of plural marriage. The LDS church website today does acknowledge the involvement of JS and alleges he had 33 wives. They even 14 year old Fanny Alger whom JS married in 1835. There is more discussion of the Kirtland and Nauvoo periods and the birth of plural marriage as a doctrine. Transparency is a good thing for LDS and CC members since you can lean more of your church heritage.
Interesting how none of these wives had any kids with Joseph. You’d think with 33+ wives there would be kids, lots of them. There are no birth certificates naming Joseph as the father, and none of these so called wives or kids show up in the US Census records either. And DNA testing evidence shows Joseph only had children with Emma…hmmm 🤔
I wish I could see the live chat.
John is the man!
Can I have my wife back now Joseph? She's been gone for over a month.
I find it interesting that the sixties are not allowed to have occurred sixty years ago in the US emotional vocabulary. Clearly we have decided to put, I will tally it at two, decades into the hands of someone else. I think this someone else is the adversary and that present time is attached to this unseemly gift.
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Lecture starts at 2:20
Now it starts at 0:00
?
It’s amazing to me that anyone believes in any sect of “Mormonism” or any religion based off of Joseph smiths golden tablets charade. There is an amazing super long multi part video series on mythvision (TH-cam channel name) where the channel owner Derek an ex Christian fundamentalist talks with two mormon historians who aren’t in the church and are relying only on historical fact and the stuff they got up to it is amazing to me and also petrifying that people believe this stuff
Agreed. It's like . . . did Joseph find magic rocks to translate a golden book? Very improbable, like . . . did Noah put 2 of every kind on his little boat, or did a dead guy pop up out of a tomb 3 days after most certainly being dead. Religion is full to wishful thoughts, some more ridiculous than others.
In the past miraculous stories proved religions were true, nowadays they prove the opposite
I love this man
What is The difference between the LDS and the RLDS? And the polygamy is now obviously out there. But is this guy going to address all the other issues with LDS beliefs? Is he going to admit that Smith made up the whole BOM and that he is a false prophet? One has to wonder why he could go only part of the way with the problems in the Mormon belief system.
Try the words of the Book of Mormon against the standard of the Bible...you will find the doctrines agree.
Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God who worshipped Jesus Christ and translated the Book of Mormon from plates of brass preserved over time by the hand of God. The Book of Mormon is complimentary to the Bible and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ...the only name whereby we can be saved.
After Joseph Smith was murdered in June of 1844, Brigham Young led many saints to SLC, Utah...while many others did not go (including Emma Smith, Joseph's only wife). Brigham Young was a false teacher and prophet who introduced several abominable practices into his denomination, including polygamy, men becoming Gods, God once being a man, blood atonement of men, a heavenly mother, and secret penal oath temple rituals. He corrupted the true History of the Church to pretend that those teachings came from Joseph Smith in order to gain support....and many today are still under that deception.
@@joesimpson9230 I've seen and heard and read too much information from sources I personally trust to ever believe in the fables written by Smith. He is known to have married many women, and even very underaged girls. Many of these "wives" were already married. Trying to blame Brigham Young isn't going to convince some people who have seen what many experts have said regarding the total lack of any single artifact or proof of any kind that the people and places, as well as animals and plants, ever existed in the Americas. Smith got the facts all wrong, and wasn't thinking about the lack of anything real being discovered to prove his works of fiction. Probably because he was young. He was most certainly no prophet. Neither are any of the so called "prophets". It's all rather sad, if a little darkly amusing. He also borrowed heavily from the actual bible. I am not here to try to change anybody else's religion, but think it's sad that children are brought up believing in all the untruths. The Christians say that it's not even a Christian faith, because Mormons believe you have to do more than just accept the gift Jesus gave... His life for an afterlife. The Mormons think it takes more than the grace of Christ.
Confusing for outsiders, I gather there's controversy but it's assumed you know about it
Your slide at 15:23 sounds like cautions against "ontological gerrymandering". The concept comes from "social constructionist" sociologists who study social problems, whether they be historical or the present day. I imagine religious historians also face the same dilemma.
I LOVE YOUR rationale for judging historical religious figures
plural marriage is not polygamy and polygamy is not plural marriage. Joseph Smith did NOT practice polygamy. He practiced plural marriage......they are not the same.
Actually, he practiced neither. The Community of Christ, like the LDS, is just run by secret societies so they lie.
Temple Lot Suit
Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published at Kirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845....
There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation.
The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed....
The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852.
Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done ....
The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ...
It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ...
A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith.
In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.]
It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding."
In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff.
No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
Nice apologetics in the first part of the lecture
Can't have religion without it. Every religion I know of demands a level of cognitive dissonance.
No where in Marks statement does he indicate that Smith initially practiced polygamy and now changed his mind about it. You are putting words in his mouth. Come on, historian!
Temple Lot Suit
Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published at Kirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845....
There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation.
The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed....
The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852.
Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done ....
The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ...
It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ...
A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith.
In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.]
It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding."
In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff.
No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
Sorry to burst your “Joseph Smith practiced polygamy” bubble, but Brigham Young admitted he started the doctrine of polygamy. So much for your “historical consensus.”
In the Deseret News (July 1, 1874) Brigham Young is quoted in a speech he gave on June 21, 1874, saying he admits that he, not Joseph Smith, invented polygamy. Young reports that he had a vision of polygamy in England but never told Joseph:
”While we were in England (in 1839 or 1840, I think) the Lord manifested to me by vision and His spirit, things that I did not then understand. I never opened my mouth to anyone concerning them, until I returned to Nauvoo; JOSEPH HAD NEVER MENTIONED THIS; there had never been a thought of it in the church that I ever knew anything about at that time; but I had this for myself, and kept it for myself.” - The Messenger, Volume 1, page 29.
Well no one need blame Joseph anymore, for Brigham Young is the self-confessed channel for which polygamy was given to his people.”
Blame both of them
Of any histories that need to reflect the truth and reality, religious history needs to most of all but seems to do it less.
We are still cousins Professor Hamer, I kinda of miss the name Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the High Priesthood of the Smiths. But I understand cuz!
Well said, not always debunking but pastoral, as balanced , not ignoring historical flaws and focus only on apologetics.
Your Brighamite cuz does not have a problem with the prophet Joseph.
Let's face it that was Emma doing re the extreme anti polygamy.
Joseph Smith 3 may have been more refined but I loved the rougher stone brother Brigham just as I like Orin Porter Rockwell too.
By ancestors were Scouts for brother Brigham. We loved brother Brigham. Levi served the prophet Joseph and transferred his alliance to Brigham.
I appreciate your fair scholarship.
Love your courses , I need to make good on a well deserved devotion. Emma was not fond of the less refined Brigham.
She's a woman she probably said it and was telling the truth in her own mind. Woman have a way of construction of unwanted events.
William was also a notorious liar. Less honorable than the other Smith brothers. That is immoral to raise families abandon the families. At least in the west the men went to prison or Mexico rather than abandoned their wives and children
One wife is hard enough to cope with so you’re welcome to all the rest of the gals. Good luck.
Very true yet that was the purpose of modern society to raise the women to be unruly, and without any discipline or duty, in a matriarchal society, now take women from a patriarchal society that’s raised with duty to serve. And yes, I said, serve her husband there’s usually a far greater difference.
Such a good presentation! For anyone who wants to make this about Joseph vs. Brigham, I think it’s wrong to treat the “Brigham Young introduced polygamy” and “Joseph introduced polygamy” theories as mutually exclusive.
Why can’t they both be partially true? I see it as possible for Brigham and Joseph to each have their own takes on polygamy, and to both have originated it secretly, and for them to both be wrong. It’s not like having multiple wives is that novel of an idea.
It’s still possible that there was a conspiracy among (some of) the 12 and others to get rid of Joseph, especially if he was going to excommunicate them for their practice of polygamy, even if he himself originated a version of the practice within the church.
Look into what Joseph knew about ancient Irish society. The Irish had clan studs (often titled Eochaid, meaning horse) that would help infertile couples to conceive by way of natural insemination.
Lmao sure that must’ve been it!
@@Stolas1777 Joseph knew a lot about his Irish ancestry and the contents of the annals. He descends from a line of royal historiographers in Ireland who maintained the annals for thousands of years.
@@derekpmoore Joseph was a
Con artist treasure hunter that made
Up a religion that’s easier to debunk than Islam which is an amazing feat in and of itself. There’s plenty of first hand documentation of him skipping out of loans and conning people, opening up brothels to make money, and being a polygamist along with Brigham young yet the LDS church denies it. Mormonism is a joke and anyone who believes it should be ridiculed
Why is there a problem with polygamy and not other forms like gay, lesbian, polyamory, open marriage etc... ?
how are those at all similar?
@@k992-o6r ya for real. Polyamory I can see, maybe even open marriage.
🤷♂️🤷♂️🤔😂
@@k992-o6r They're all forms of "marriage".
@@DanHowardMtl I guess... i don't see your point though
@@k992-o6r Once you open the door to alt-marriages you can't complain about any of them.
why is this on my feed
Because John Hamer’s videos are very interesting among being historically accurate.
Do you watch Religion for Breakfast or Useful Charts? Because this channel has some overlap with topics those channels cover and that's how the algorithm runs.
The Community of Christ's willingness to lay open the history of the church in such an honest way seems very much in tune with the teaching of Christ Jesus.
Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist. In the early church, members often got sealed to a Priesthood leader. Wilford Woodruff changed that in a talk given on April 18 1894 in the Salt Lake City Tabernacle. In part of his talk in the Law of Adoption Sealings, Wilford Woodruff stated the following:
"...the duty that I want every man who presides over a Temple to see performed from this day henceforth and forever, unless the Lord Almighty commands otherwise, is, let every man be adopted to his father. When a man receives the endowment, adopt him to his father; [149] not to Wilford Woodruff, nor to any other man outside the lineage of his fathers. That is the will of God to this people. I want all men who preside over these temples in these mountains of Israel to bear this in mind."
So Joseph Smith and other leaders were sealed to other women and members as part of the Law of Adoption, which were sealings BUT NOT marriages! Joseph Smith was NOT a polygamist and thus John Dehlin spreads lies!
Josph didn't practice polygamy. Brigham and others did.
This is a new ex-Mormon view that is based on old RLDS apologetics. This video shows the RLDS/CoC no longer supports their old stance of denialism.
I believe that Brigham Young believed polygamy was necessary for men to be celestial and was therefore justified in the practice.
But why would that be the case, that it would be necessary, when it makes it impossible for twain to cleave and be one?
Man dude you have not done your research. Promote lie after lie and theories that have been proven false.
The historical record trumps your theory that Smith wasn't a polygamist
@@mattc1647 which historical records?
I appreciate all the work put into these videos. However, my opinion of organized religion will never change because all organized religion is just nice cultism, except when it's bad. Religion glosses over reality that can not be seen while in it's embrace. Religion is unnecessary for a happy and fulfilled life. Belief in deities and man servants of deities is as irrational as the men and women who claim to be those servants. Many cult leaders (and followers) are deluded or suffer from an obvious (or not so obvious) mental illness or personality disorder. Hopefully humans can deconstruct the short history of the invention of deities and their "representatives" in time, but I doubt it.
I listened to enough of this to make me want to puke. You said that we weren't hearing the words of Emma Smith but things that someone said she said. If you want to say that, then the New Testament is not the words of Christ, but things someone said he said. The Old Testament is not the words of God, but words they have said He said. This would wipe out all religion every everywhere.
Can somebody please acknowledge some truth here?
Why do Mormons call it the Aaronic priesthood?
They call it the Aaronic priesthood because they can't call it by it's real name, The Levitical priesthood?
Why can't they call it the Levitical priesthood?
They can't call it The Levitical Priesthood because they are the sons of Joseph, not Levi.
Aaron and Moses were Levites.
The sons of Joseph cannot inherit the Levitical priesthood!
Please, just acknowledge this truth for me.
Also the eternal family lie.
Jesus said that in the kingdom, there will be no marriage but people will be as the angels in heaven, going on to state that God is the God of the living, not the dead; thereby, also destroying your baptizing dead people crap, and people going on after they are dead.
So, in essence, Emma never said what she said, Jesus never said what he said, Paul never said what he said, and God never said what he said. None of the OT prophets ever said what they said, none of the bible is real and all of your religions are BS. Which is what I believe. Yea, let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar!!!
Please, for the love of God and everything holy, sit down and shut up!!!!! The whole idea of the New Covenant was that God would speak to us himself and tell us what he wants. Which is why the temple veil was ripped in half. We no longer need someone like you yelling us what to do and believe, but the Elohim, the Eternal Spirit God will teach us and lead us to all righteousness.
Religion has been the downfall of the human race!!!!!!
John Hamer is talking as a historian. Indirect quotes and hearsay are of course less reliable than first hand accounts written down close to the events. The books of the Bible are of course second and third hand accounts.
@@charlesmendeley9823 Yes, and he is giving us his opinion using these second and third hand accounts. So, if the bible is second and third hand accounts, then none of them are true, right? That's why we must leave all religion. As God told Joseph, he told me: none of them are true!
@@Thevoiceinthewilderness2013 Reread my answer.
You're an insane person
So is this guy a Mormon?
He's a Mormon, but a member of the Community of Christ and not the Utah-based Church (which he said he left in early adulthood).
He was born into the Mormon church, but converted to Community of Christ, another denomination within the greater Latter Day Restoration movement, which does not identify as "Mormon".
@@noahheninger you are 100% correct. He says it around 19:50
It’s crazy - I was reading your comment right as Dr Hamer spoke about the date he left.
Well the Utah based latter day saints dont call themselves mormons because its offensive name to the new president/prophet. Even though they sent a couple of decades and 10 of millions of dollars to say they are the only true mormon church.
@@david-bl8lx Unfortunately, we don't always get to decide how others define us. Mormon will always be a good shorthand for "Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints".
Listener beware, this is sloppy scholarship and loaded with misinterpretation and opinion. Study source material.
Sounds like you're an anti polygamist "truther"
Professor Mike, I enjoy this lecture very much. The only difference between myself, your Brighamite cousins and yourself is I believe the prophet Joseph's revelations to these women. I believe the introductions of his doctrines, innovations and intellect, including, the book of Mormon, pearl of Great Price etc that lend credibility to the conference of princely grace.
While on the other hand, you are not an antagonist , but have much doubt concerning his personal conduct. Thus, you followed the more sensible path which Emma eventually endorsed and lent her princily sons.