The plan for trams into Flinders Street Station
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 เม.ย. 2023
- With the closure of the St Kilda and Port Melbourne Railways in 1987, there was a lot of protest and discussion about what happens next.
Watch on to find out more about the Southern Transport Link Feasibility study and how it planned to bring trams all the way into the platforms at Flinders Street Station!
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MORE INFORMATION
Southern Public Transport Link Feasibility Study Report: philam.github.io/archive/sout...
What Flinders Street Station Could Have Looked Like: • Video
My website: philipmallis.com
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I acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands on which this video was filmed, the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung and Bunurong people. I pay respects to Elders past, present and emerging, and their extensive and continuing connection to land, water and country.
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SOURCES
© OpenStreetMap Contributors 2023. via Overpass Turbo. openstreetmap.org
Gill, S. T., 'Photograph of sketch of Port Melbourne (Sandridge) railway'. c.1854. State Library of Victoria. findingaids.slv.vic.gov.au/ar...
David Syme & Co, 'The Accepted Design For The Port Melbourne And St. Kilda Railway Bridge.'. 1886. State Library of Victoria. handle.slv.vic.gov.au/10381/25...
reidgck, 'St Kilda Line Electric 'Dogbox' suburban Trains'. • St Kilda Line Electric...
'Train Travellers' Association Newsletter'. December 1980. www.ptua.org.au/files/newslet...
"Backlash against rail cuts" Tribune (Sydney, NSW : 1939 - 1991) 3 December 1980: 7. Web. 29 Mar 2023 nla.gov.au/nla.news-article259....
Vincent, Peter J. 'Last days, Up St Kilda stops Albert Park, 2577/1987. 1987. pjv101.net
'The Met - moving Melbourne'. Metropolitan Transit Authority. ca.1980s. • The Met - Moving Melbo...
Langford, Weston, 'St Kilda Line at City Road Down B1 2022'. 6 September 1988. www.westonlangford.com/images...
Langford, Weston, '117212: Port Melbourne B2 2029'. 22 March 1990. westonlangford.com/images/pho...
Ellis, John B., 'Public transport cuts protest - Port Melbourne banner'. 28 June 1981. University of Melbourne Archives. digitised-collections.unimelb... 35B-33d
Image of a sign with the City of South Melbourne emblem c1960-70'. c.1960-1970. citycollection.melbourne.vic.... of Melbourne
Balendra, Jaya, 'Partners plan $100m festival market over station". 3 September 1986. The Age. news.google.com/newspapers?ni...
Minter, Elizabeth, 'Light-rail link plan backed by report'. 6 April 1992. The Age. ezproxy.slv.vic.gov.au/login?u...
Das, Sushi, 'Exhibition St extension to open toll free'. 26 October 1999. The Age. ezproxy.slv.vic.gov.au/login?u...
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Roads are so depressing
Roads are so dangerous now, people seem to be driving more recklessly on the roads, especially here in the UK
There's still signage on the tiles at Flinders Street Station for the Port Melbourne and St Kilda lines, with those blue hands and the pointy fingers.
Just a note, not any correcting. Arbory Bar (bar with food, not a restaurant) is built over the (former) railway alignment, not over Platform 11. Only the fence, & walls & some servicing areas encroach slightly on Platform 11. Can still easily walk along Platform 11 & plenty of room to do so. In fact, it's fastest way to get from Elizabeth St end of station to main concourse, or to Platform 13, if coming from Southbank, as no people have to walk around.
By the way, the bar was a private operator proposal made to FSS & Vic Railways, as no track was there and 11 not used (not as many people incorrectly think), something Flinders St Station created/ owns. Of course land it's on is still Vic Track, but that's all.
Some people have commented/queried if Arbory Bar could be removed. Except for the paths up to it's 2 entrances, the entire bar is built off ground (except for supports of course), & "floor" is mostly wooden slats, at equal height to FSS platform, so very little of it is built on the ground.
Never knew of this proposal! This is why you and this channel rock! Great stuff as usual Philip
Thank you very much, glad you enjoy the videos!
@@philipmallis Yeah, if I were the Premier, I would Promise to build a new light rail line between Monash and Tullamarine using the current Alamein Line, former outer circle and the Airport West Tram Route Right of way for the new line. Much cheaper than SRL and still gives Melbourne airport a Rail Connection.
I was a child, 3 or 4, but I remember Melbournes green and gold teams of the Met, when I was over from Adelaide. I spent a lot of time in Melbourne in the 90’s, the most memorable was walking to St Kilda. I loved the Hitachi EMU’s, but catching trams to St Kilda remains memorable because of trams not going on the road. Everything is so hazy from those days, but videos like this reminds me of so many memories.
I genuinely had no idea about this and I've used all the trams a lot. I do think the integration might be slightly better as someone who uses the 96 the whole way a lot and the 109 far too much, but it's fascinating to think we were gonna make it much more integrated with FSS and there was a purpose for Platform 11. Good stuff.
Fascinating! As a teenager I frequently used the St Kilda light rail in the 90s and wondered why and how it came to be. Thanks for your videos Philip.
My pleasure, glad you enjoy them!
@@philipmallis what are your thoughts on turning the Alamein line into a light rail. This new tram route from the city would branch off from Route 70 at Riverside and continue to Alamein, before extending to the Chadstone Shopping Centre, using the old outer circle trail right of way. After Chadstone Shopping Centre, this new Tram line would then run along the median of the Princess Highway and continue all the way to Monash University. It would definitely improve public transport access to Monash University as well as the Chadstone Shopping Centre.
@@philipmallis Yeah, if I were the Premier, I would Promise to build a new light rail line between Monash and Tullamarine using the current Alamein Line, former outer circle and the Airport West Tram Route Right of way for the new line. Much cheaper than SRL and still gives Melbourne airport a Rail Connection.
Great video man. I always wondered why some of the stops on those tram lines were so developed as well as how engineered the line was in comparison to others. Even though I've walked on it numerous times, I never made the connection that the awkwardly placed Sandridge Bridge was previously a railway bridge and thus makes complete sense.
@Zico Mitchell. There's a great walk/trail that starts at back of Flinders St Station, goes over Sandridge Bridge (then detours as can't follow former line for a bit), then goes along side the former train line now light rail, from Clarendon St all the way to Port Melbourne. There's also some info signs along the way.
Even if don't walk the whole 5kms, a walk along just part of it is interesting.
I sometimes walk a few tram stops from Port Melbourne end after going to Port Melb
For some time I suspected this could and should have been an option considered for the light rail. It still could be as I imagine the restaurant could be turfed out of the station pretty easily, but there probably isn't the need for it now. I wonder how the lines would cope with higher rates of interchange within Flinders Street station, especially for major events in the sports precinct. But I guess that's already a thing with the tram stop on Princes Bridge (edit: and with the tram stops at Southern Cross when the Grand Prix is on).
I enjoyed this video. A great use of historical photos and film footage to set the timeline!
Thanks for another great video. Also, a quality Melbourne history lesson. Brilliant!
Thanks Philip for unearthing and presenting this video. I always wondered about the wisdom of this so called 'LRV' proposal why some thinks went ahead and others didn't. thanks again.
You are very welcome, thank you!
Nice video! Love learning all things of Ye Olde Melbourne.
Another great video, thanks Philip. I am pretty sure I knew the Bayly part of the "Loder and Bayly Consulting Group"!
Interesting as usuall Philip,
Already great tramline to Port Melbourne but now imagining trams going over an iconic stretch of Yarra to meet up at Flinders Street Station. Could have been amazing. I wonder if Sandridge Bridge can be modified to see out a bit more?
I always get excited when I see a new video from your channel I don’t know how you manage to get so much info but you obviously have a real talent for it, I was just going to throw this out but if you ever get stuck thinking what your next video do you think you could do one the piece of land that’s now a power substation on the corner of Wellington and Stud Rd in I think Rowville apparently It was the venue where they raced world class motorcycles and a POW camp I’ve been finding bits and pieces of history in the Dandenong area, but keep up the fantastic work I’m looking forward to the next
Good video. Very interesting! Particularly having just visited the Melbourne Tram Museum in Hawthorn for the first time … adds to what I learnt there. 🤓
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it! And yes it's a great museum, always worth visiting :)
I remember the Lonie Report Happily most of the proposed changes never got accepted. Nice, interesting little video...
I like your videos your very informative put a lot of work into your videos
Thanks, glad you like them!
I’m surprised there’s been no move to put a tram line on Beaconsfield Parade, even a bus route would be nice. I guess the idea is to keep the “St Kilda” types away from the lesser known beaches.
Wish they kept both railway lines. Why didn't they just have it as a through running service to Sandringham and consider it as one group I wonder. The amount of people that use st kilda 96 pretty much warrants a heavy rail service today.
what are your thoughts on turning the Alamein line into a light rail. This new tram route from the city would branch off from Route 70 at Riverside and continue to Alamein, before extending to the Chadstone Shopping Centre, using the old outer circle trail right of way. After Chadstone Shopping Centre, this new Tram line would then run along the median of the Princess Highway and continue all the way to Monash University. It would definitely improve public transport access to Monash University as well as the Chadstone Shopping Centre.
Fascinating. 😊
what are your thoughts on turning the Alamein line into a light rail. This new tram route from the city would branch off from Route 70 at Riverside and continue to Alamein, before extending to the Chadstone Shopping Centre, using the old outer circle trail right of way. After Chadstone Shopping Centre, this new Tram line would then run along the median of the Princess Highway and continue all the way to Monash University. It would definitely improve public transport access to Monash University as well as the Chadstone Shopping Centre.
hmmm interesting. would it be possible to do a video on the old Kodak Factory in Coburg??
I think this would have been a cool project. Shame it didn't go ahead.
Public transport it seems according to this video too,is so hard to navigate!! But without a car at the moment I prefer trams ❤
Route 67 was meant to run all the way to Moorabbin I’ve heard down the very generous central median down most of the Nepean HWY.
Great video again! Regarding something different, I was wondering what the building located on the island at the corner of Swanston St and Victoria St opposite the Melbourne Baths is? Is this an old points control station used when the Swanston st tram line split with one line continuing north along Swanston st and the other line turning left along Victoria st?
@Andrew Brown It is an old trams terminus building tower, but not points control (as far as I know). Points were switched manually with rod. Slots are still there.
That was once the terminus for southern routes trams, until they were changed to terminate a bit north of Queensberry St. (& later, to terminate outside Melb Uni).
On rare occasions still see a tram there, but a special or track maintenance tram
The building on the south east corner of 48 Nicholson & Gertrude streets, Carlton. A T junction. Opposite the Royal Exhibition Building, is a former cable tram shed. It has an octagonal room on top of building, right on the corner for clear viewing of the whole intersection. There was a 3 lever frame inside, and the room was manned by a Signalman. Not sure if the frame controlled the cable tram points, or signals.
@@railtrolley Hi, I often point that one out to people. As well (not re trams) the oldest row of terrace houses in Melbourne on other corner.
(I host Melbourne discovery walks/part tours on 2 social walks groups).
In my prior comment I was mostly thinking re electric trams.
You probably know (and why I was thinking of just electric trams) one at Victoria St & Swanston St was only for electric tram;. as in cable tram days, there was no tram line along Swanston St Carlton, but Lonsdale St - Russell St - Lygon St -Elgin/Johnston St, with branch line along Rathdowne St.
(a former Cable tram shed, now warehouse style apartments within, is at north end of Rathdowne St. Coles on Johnston St was once a tram shed).
As for cable trams turning at a t-intersection where there's 2 trams, I'm not sure how that works re them (if it's perhaps) changing tracks/turning.
I do know at crossroads the cable grip-man/driver would release the grip from the cable & coast through intersections. As the cables for each line were usually continuous for each whole line, it's possible he released from one, & latched on to the other. (As said, don't know but good question next time, at Hawthorn Tram Museum. Answer may on its extensive website with loads of history & blogs www.hawthorntramdepot.org.au/
There was also a (electric) trams control tower at St Kilda Junction, & it was there for some decades, when the junction didn't have traffic lights.
Again not sure, but think it may have had something to do with points.
That St Kilda one comes up in a lot of posts on social media, so answer is probably online (but I haven't come across it)
I saw a protest sign referring to a “Lie-Trail”.
One report I saw stated that the Box Hill line saw more passengers per hour than the Port Melbourne line got in a day. Likewise for St. Kilda line. I wonder how it compares today?
How would the St Kilda line handle the Grand Prix compared to the tram line which had multiple stops?
Remember the tram strike over the Grand Prix weekend where the Kennett govt arranged for buses?
Kennett stated that the tram strike pushed forward the privatization agenda.
I wouldn't be surprised if they had already allocated that stretch of land for a casino back in 1991, hence the reason why the proposals for light rail to go to Flinders Street, didn't go ahead.
All those proposals sounds like there was deep regret over removing the train services in the first place... hindsight is 2020
Philip, what do you reckon you talk about Rowville Rail? It’s much further out from CBD but a topic of interest I would believe
I've actually written most of the script for a future video so it's high up on the list!
@@philipmallis what are your thoughts on turning the Alamein line into a light rail. This new tram route from the city would branch off from Route 70 at Riverside and continue to Alamein, before extending to the Chadstone Shopping Centre, using the old outer circle trail right of way. After Chadstone Shopping Centre, this new Tram line would then run along the median of the Princess Highway and continue all the way to Monash University. It would definitely improve public transport access to Monash University as well as the Chadstone Shopping Centre.
The underground outer loop railway will happen first - it has a freight tie-in requirement to connect to Maryvale from Glen Waverley (for rubbish disposal).
Do you think the Glen Waverley line will ever get extended?
No point...turning Wellington Road into a train line is a better option
The real issue was the desire to remove the railway bridge and reserve to develop Southbank ..all other excuses for closing the line were a smokescreen ... there was a rumour that the costings done for the light rail did not include changing the rail broad gauge to the tram gauge ... not sure on that but would not surprise me... but was a clear desire to remove the historic rail stations ...in the end they lowered the platforms....
Was the rail gauge changed to SG or tram bogies changed to BG,please?
changed to SG.
Used the St Kilda line many times in the 60s going to Albert Park. Platform 11. New it had changed to Trams and thought then that it might be the future fir ALL Train lines in Melbourne?
Seems the Consultants Reports gave our lazy polies too many options, so typically they do nothing and PRETEND they are doing work and thinking about it. Needs a shove to make Trams the best adaptable lite rail for this City of Melbourne.
How would it be “faster and better for passengers getting into the city” given FSS is at the edge of the city and the trams run through the city?
@Tim Bo, I'm also not sure if it would be faster, if transiting through the city.
It might have been back in the 1980s, & before Melbourne Central Shopping Centre, but the demographics & movement of people has changed a lot since.
While Museum Station opened in 1981, Melbourne Central Shopping Centre didn't open till 1991, & with that was a gradual (quite fast actually) change of which stations many people used, & where people went to shop or get to work.
As it is now, the 96 & 109 get quite full through Southbank/Port Junction stop at Claredon St, Crown stop & Batman Park stop,
& at Southern Cross stop they half empty out as many people go to SC Station.
Only thing it would've perhaps been quicker for would be if transiting to train at Flinders St Station, & maybe slightly (very slightly) quicker than getting 96 down Bourke St or109 along Collins St, to Swanson St. But I can guarantee if have to wait for a tram along Swanston St it definitely wouldn't be quicker getting to Bourke St; & would walk if going to Collins St from FSS
What's the difference between a tram and a light rail thingy.
paul alderson, calling it light rail is an excuse to not call it a tramline.
They are the same things with different names
why didn't this happen.
Southbank real estate was the reason trams did not go to Flinders St Station.
What you forgot to mention was that the cutbacks to the train and tramlines were part of Linday Thomson's dry Liberal Government, part of a series of cutting back all services in general. This caused an outrage and was possibly one major reason for Victoria voting in a state Labor Government under John Cain Junior, the first Labor Premier since his father was premier in the 1950s. Victoria had been under the Liberals for a long time... So the new Labor Government had did promise not to cut back trams and trains. The Altona line was looped into the Werribee Line. The St Kilda Line was made into a light rail as it was seen as more economically feasible. So the whole direction was changed under new Labor, all the colors changed, names were changed, and so on...
We're some of those trams brought in ex-Bendigo trams?
Not sure, sorry
I just read through info about Bendigo trams today. It seems like they tried not to sell off any trams (the people of Bendigo barricaded a tram inside when people from Adelaide came to get it. The whole fleet was sold to the Bendigo heritage tourist group to maintain and run for $1 and they’re still running them today. So I doubt many trams from Bendigo can to Melbourne for the Light Rail
Bridge Street ,PM at the boom gates.
This video has errors. The oldest railway in Australia was between Port Elliot and Goolwa in South Australia and was opened on 18 May 1854. This railway still operates today.
@Fuzzblaster Sandrige/Port Melbourne to FSS was Australia's first steam passenger railway.
Port Elliot - Goolwa opened as a horse drawn railway. And still was well after Melbourne's first heavy rail line opened
@@dynevor6327 Melbourne's Port Melbourne - Flinders St railway was Australia's first steam train line & Australia's first passenger railway.
1831 NSW one wasn't even a proper railway line! Was on an inclined plane, as a gravitational railway, to service only a coal mine. So nothing more than to transport, basically, mining skips up & down a hill, somewhat like the Blue Moutains "Scenic Railway" which also isn't a railway & just some straight track on side of a hill originally built to get skips up & down.
1831 Newcastle one wasn't even a driven railway, it was a manual counterweight, on ropes, system. Wagons were rolled down, connected by rope to empty wagons at the wharf, which were pulled up the slope by the loaded wagons descending. Certainly nothing carriage like on it.
@@dynevor6327 Where in Tasmania was one you're referring to? First railway to open in Tasmania was in 1870. Before that has to be either what is referred to as a tramway, for forestry or like a mining skip rail.
Neither shouldn't be referred to a railway line in same sense as heavy rail railway
@@dynevor6327 You didn't answer where the one in Tasmania was nor exactly what it was. One in NSW was not a railway line in the true sense as 99% would think a railway line is. No Stations, no transport of anything other than freight, & not even proper freight cars.
The one in Adelaide was a horse-drawn tramway, not a railway line. It wasn't converted to a railway line, with new broader gauge tracks, until from 1885 (converted in stages).
One in Tasmania at penal colony of Port Arthur in 1836 was a tramway with wooden rails where 'people pushed' carts were ‘driven’ by gangs of 4 convicts, some still in leg-irons & chains who pushed the carts in relays back and forth along the track. (I eventually found info re it).
Surely, you're not saying/ claiming that as one of Australia's very first railways.
Also, first quite obviously meant oldest still existing which Flinders St Station (location) is, & as is much of both lines where they originally & still run, albeit a different type of transport, but are on exact same alignment. None of the ones you claim are oldest still exist unless count a walking/bike trail.
If he qualified every maybe (with "maybe, but not necessarily") every exception ridiculously over-pedantic claim that might perhaps be possible, re earlier than first passenger railway, intro would be 5-10 minutes long! As would also have include horse-drawn forestry tramways
& people would've stopped watching well before.
Answer this: is the one at Blue Mountains down the side of a steep hill an actual railway line or not.
Perhaps you should make a youtube video about why the 2 you claim are oldest in Australia. Then ridiculously pedantic **** can tell you what they think you said wrong.
By your arguing, you'd have to include the railway in Sydney as an amusement, well before Luna Park, as one of the earliest rail lines in Australia, & also one at Black Rock Melbourne. They were on rails, & went for a few hundred metres. Were straight track, & one at Black Rock the cars (looked more like buckets) could be manually turned around & go back. Both those ran by momentum.
I better get to bed, have to be up earlier as catching the #96 railway in the morning 😛.
@@profonde3460 , there was a wooden railed tramway using a cart pushed along by convicts. i think it was at port arthur. there is at least one sketch or painting of it. it was in a history book we used at school.
Few things are cooler than having a street called Batman Avenue.
Named so after John Batmam
I'll bet you don't even know who Batman was!
Why are many trams in cities around the world painted green and yellow? 🇦🇺👍🍺
still cant understand why the whole tram and train network in not underground! But hey level crossing creates more jobs!
Tunnels are expensive, it's a miracle we're getting another one cutting through the city
A lot of London's Underground is above ground. Reason? too expensive to tunnel.
I don’t think the widespread protests had any effect on the government decisions. This government was arrogant and rode rough shod over public opinion.
Time to replace it with electric busses. It's such a slow, inefficient, expensive, dangerous, ugly and outdated way to transport people.
except a bus running on normal city streets wouldn't have the speed (sharing the road with normal cars), be more dangerous (when was the last accident on the light rail lines?), have less capacity (route 96 is one of the busiest tram routes in the world, a bus route couldn't handle that), be less efficient (steel wheel on steel rail has far less friction than rubber tyre on ashphalt road) and be an overall downgrade compared to the current service. Trams are also popular with the masses and are considered an icon of Melbourne.
With the greatest respect, Robert, you are completely wrong in every particular.
@@jimsmowingofficial Yea that’s exactly the problem, it’s considered an Icon! Icon status over practicality. Trams slow down all other traffic. So in 10 years when everyone is driving electric cars we have to put up with a trams blocking the roads. How many people have been struck crossing the road to board or exit a tram because they can’t pull over to the curb? Even trolly busses would be better! Hipsters think they look retro that’s it lol
@@philroberts7238 telling that you can’t give any reasons to why I’m wrong lol.. Try doing a bit of travelling mate, maybe visit Helsinki or Milan..
@@robert7622 All those tired and worn out arguments have been put before and refuted before. The simple fact is that trams move more people , faster and more efficiently. You might note that trams are returning to cities all over the world.
what are your thoughts on turning the Alamein line into a light rail. This new tram route from the city would branch off from Route 70 at Riverside and continue to Alamein, before extending to the Chadstone Shopping Centre, using the old outer circle trail right of way. After Chadstone Shopping Centre, this new Tram line would then run along the median of the Princess Highway and continue all the way to Monash University. It would definitely improve public transport access to Monash University as well as the Chadstone Shopping Centre.
what are your thoughts on turning the Alamein line into a light rail. This new tram route from the city would branch off from Route 70 at Riverside and continue to Alamein, before extending to the Chadstone Shopping Centre, using the old outer circle trail right of way. After Chadstone Shopping Centre, this new Tram line would then run along the median of the Princess Highway and continue all the way to Monash University. It would definitely improve public transport access to Monash University as well as the Chadstone Shopping Centre.
Honestly that would be really cool, and if you combined it with a rebuilt inner circle and extended the airport west tram line into the airport itself, you'd have the SRL for a fraction of the cost.
Why not just extend the existing line to Chadstone, makes more sense capacity wise
@@jimsmowingofficial why spend heaps of money on the underground rail when I think all the suburban rail link needs is above-ground frequent and easily accessible light rail
@@jimsmowingofficial I think it would be better if we built SRL as Light Rail and build it in stages
@@electro_sykes agreed