@@DistrictWitch i think theyre doing the thing where they uphold their supposed superiority on her by opposing to what theyve been told they cant possibly call her ie a "coward" in order to show that she holds no power, typical oppressor behaviour, lets bring out the fucking guillotines
I had a fairly negative opinion of Contrapoints, or Natalie, for years now. I can't even be sure where it came from, possibly from her video on Jordan Peterson of whom i was a blind fanboy of at the time. Listening to this conversation changed my perspective of her so much, she's a very brave soul, really introspective and smart. I'm definitely gonna check out more of her content in the future.
I saw that and got turned off There were some things i thought weren't interpreted correctly. She also made some accusations which were non sensical. Her other videos are great though. A very thorough analysis is a gift these days.
Yeah, I have some deeply held opinions about people I got when I was a right-wing reactionary. Sometimes I need to remind myself that a lot of people I had solidified as bad people in my young developing brain are actually really good and I had been misled into disliking them. Coincidentally, when I was in this phase I was also a Jordan Peterson fan--and Bench Appearo, Steven Crowder, etc. I feel like a lot of people have similar experiences with being big fans of these creators as young kids and then eventually getting more educated or mature as time progresses.
@@ezra8440 I mean, i still like Jordan, i think he's fundamentally a decent person, but same as everyone else he's wrong more often than his fans would like to admit. In any case, it's very important to give people a chance, you might have some deeply rooted misconceptions about someone without ever realizing it.
At 23 minutes when she says "Being a boy was okay, becoming a man wasn't," it really resonated with me as a "late bloomer" cis lesbian. Dating boys was fine, I genuinely cared for the men I dated. But as I approached adulthood and marriage entered the equation and became an expectation in these relationships, I was filled with existential dread I couldn't name. The prospect of having a husband, or more like being the wife of a man, was suddenly too real and I had to face the truth that I actually was fundamentally not on board with having a man as a life partner.
I actually know a kid personally who was okay with being a boy. The moment I mentioned that he was growing up to become a man (speaking on development) he gasped like it was something that hit him. I wonder if eventually he will struggle with his own identity.
I can relate to that existential dread. For me it seems to be the other way round. I'm a gay man, as of now, but somehow can only really thrive romantically and sexually in a very (stereotypical) feminine role, had most fulfilling experiences with bi or 'straight' men. I phantasize a lot about being a man's wife and have been asked repeatedly by my partners since my teenage years if I'm sure that I am not actually aspiring to become a (trans) woman. I've suppressed those feelings for some years thinking that maybe I was just internalizing their insecurity about homosexuality. But slowly those ideas come up again more frequently. At the same time I don't have gender dysphoria in the sense of despising my body, which is rather feminie though... well, I guess it's really complicated making such a far reaching decision...
@@histologie4140 It could be possible that you are non-binary. I don't think you have to have gender dysphoria to be trans. Dysphoria is a condition that comes with SOME trans people but how you identify is up to you.
@@histologie4140 It's complicated like you say, but if there was a word that perfectly defined 'gay man that has a preference for occupying a feminine role in a relationship', it feels like maybe you'd grativitate towards that word...you'd still be you. In any case, whether society is making you feel like you should be in the right category, or possibly ex partners, as long as you live a lifestyle that feels true to yourself, you're already winning
I think I finally figured out why a lot of people fucking hate her on twitter. Because she admits in this video that she says a lot of transphobic things, and it never fazed me because it was always immediately obvious to me that she was talking about herself. She wasn't trying to hurt other people, she's just airing grievances about herself aloud, but some people don't see it as self-abuse, they have the same problem as Natalie; they feel the same hurt, so when they hear these things, it adds fuel to their own internal monologue and, they think she's talking about them when she's only sharing her discomfort with herself.
@ksts45Ⓐ Ok, I will admit the cancel culture stuff was weird, but IIRC, the NB stuff on twitter was just a miscommunication, since it was about cis people only introducing pronouns because she was there. It was a minor gripe that got misconstrued as hating pronoun circles and the people that do them. Unless I'm missing something else, she hasn't been that bad on twitter except for the cancel culture speech
@ksts45Ⓐ she's since experienced cancel culture herself because of the twitter NB event. She made a very good video on it, and delves even deeper with the cringe and shame videos. all worthy of further consideration.
@ksts45Ⓐ her take on nb people wasn't even that bad and was mostly misconstrued and misunderstood, but the reaction against her was so insanely vitriolic and overblown that her complaining about cancel culture... well, made a lot of sense actually.
As a longtime fan of Natalie and a first-time viewer of Dr. K., I have to say I'm in awe of both his incisiveness and her willingness to engage in a very vulnerable process. Much respect to both. Turns out there's two people in this video whomst I stan.
@@tomisaacson2762 definitely, even if we cant empathise 100% as we dont have the same exact experiences, there are fundamental struggles that bind us together
I'm not trans either, but I could relate to the trouble of navigating societal expectations of what "a man" has to do, be, look like, think, etc... It's not easy if you're a firefighter-paramedic, but you don't drink and don't really like grilled meat. It confuses people. To the extend that I, as a totally-cis mostly-straight man, have been asked if I was gay many, many times.
What I’ve realized about Natalie: She’s shy, and she’s more fragile than we tend to see her. It’s not fair that she’s expected to be just as indestructible as she appears in her videos. She doesn’t deserve that.
@TheDooOver espacially not if they want to be. Wanting a position can always be treated something like wanting power. If you want it too much, you probably don't deserve it. Noone deserves the decision of either dying for humanities sins or becoming god, even if its just in the mind of other people.
That's because he confuses the definition of a man with the definition altered by society. Most boys who spot problems with this early have trouble accepting to mature into a man.
@@DreamingConcepts I'm so confused. The doctor host dude (sorry, forget his name) didn't confuse any definitions that I could tell. What are you talking about? Natalie was talking about her experience of adolescence and not resonating with manhood.
this is my first time to see Natalie outside of her own videos and she actually seems a lot more shy and awkward than what is portrayed in her videos and I love to see it because it really humanizes her
@@overgrownkudzu as a performing artist, it's very, very common, if not a rule, that the personality you see on screen is different from the actual person. Actual people have to pay bills, wait to get seated at restaurants, deal with in laws, etc. Actors play larger than life characters to make a point or tell a story. It's why propaganda is so dangerous and why art is so meaningful.
Yeah, I feel like the way she portrays herself in her work she seems kind of indifferent to the truth or more accurately uninterested in philosophy which I believe to be the study of the truth, when I know that if she is making a philosophy video she definitely cares about it but I kind of just got the vibe from the video she didn’t but from this it is definitely obvious that she cares.
@@overgrownkudzu Yeah I'm a pretty shy person but whenever I'm put in a position where I'm out in the open or I need to step up to do something I put on the persona of a confident who knows exactly what to do. It's not the same as being on camera, but it is similar, like maintaining a public appearance vs private personality.
I really respect the way Natalie seems to have a kind of dedication to the truth. Like, she cares about complexity and nuance. She doesnt want to BS herself or other people. I wish her all the peace and happiness in the world!
How is telling yourself you are stuck in the wrong body not bullshitting yourself? A trans person's entire identity is a lie. Being a biological male trying to be more "feminine" is obviously a refusal to accept that you are a male.
I’m transitioning and the “being a trans woman is an ok thing to be and be seen as” thing is so important and so hard to do. It was helpful to hear Natalie talk about that. Thanks to you both.
He keeps asking intensely personal followup questions and she just keeps getting braver and going deeper… Thank you both, this is incredibly therepeutic
@@alecrobinson7124 I'm kinda nervous about the fact you'd say this. It's got a very similar feeling to people seeing professional dungeon masters online and thinking that's what real D+D looks like or watching porn and thinking that's what actual sex looks like. Yeah DR K is a great therapist and it's great you can get some kinda catharsis out of watching his interviews, but going to therapy once a week/month is not gonna look the same as what you're seeing on twitch/youtube with something like this.
@@russellstephens3580 Well, porn and movies are different because there is a certain script, and they are expected to behave a certain way. Whereas for this, I don't believe Natalie was following any sort of script judging by her reactions/wording (as well as Dr. K's; both talked to each other without knowing exactly how the convo was gonna go). I do not believe Dr. K is doing anything particularly different or unrealistic as how a "good" therapist would; for sure the longer sessions are better than the standard 1-hr sessions of "regular" therapy (to my experience anyway), but that's the only unrealistic part I can really discern. What I mean is Dr. K's performance is not an unrealistic standard that other therapists cannot meet, which is the key difference between this and porn/professional DnD (since most DM's are not pros, they do it as a hobby)/other forms of curated media. Dr. K is trained, but any experienced, competent therapist would also be trained and licensed. I don't think that wanting to have a session with Dr. K is necessarily a bad thing, so long as you'd be relatively content with the sessions with the other (competent) therapist(s) you do end up seeing, if you do end up seeing them.
@@russellstephens3580 But porn is fictional, associating it with the real expectations of sex is obviously wrong. And expecting your once a month DnD group to equally have the same expectations as professional and paid voice actors is also obviously wrong. Neither are in any way similar to having a professional and trained psychiatrist who does a good job. There are many psychs out there who are as good as DR. K, so paying for a psych you feel you're not connecting with, and saying "i wish i could have a session with this therapist instead" is just... wishing for a better experience. It's more like someone having a gardener, then seeing a really good youtube gardener and going "dang, I'd love them to come landscape for me". And then you step in like lol that's like saying porn is actual sex. Like lmao no? It's like saying you wish a paid professional in that field would do a good job for you.
Natalie's right, cis people can question their gender. I questioned my own gender for about a year. I didn't feel particularly at home in myself, I didn't feel very much like I was "manly" or that I wanted to be "manly". I wondered if I was agender or non-binary, and decided to adopt they/them pronouns for about a year. Ultimately, I began feeling comfortable with (perhaps even gender euphoria at) being identified as a man and calling myself one. Now I have a healthy and self-affirming conception of masculinity for myself! And you know what, I think questioning my gender ultimately helped me be happier and more secure in it. As Kahlil Gibran once said: "Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is its twin brother."
As a trans man, i think that is awesome, and oddly relatable. I struggled with accepting myself as a man for a long time because being raised as and living as a woman I had a really negative view of masculinity in general. I identified as gender fluid for a long time but realised I am actually a dude, and dudes can be many lovely and wonderful things too. My life has improved in many ways since transitioning and accepting who I am.
@@kkkkkkk2028 Without the existence of doubt, faith doesn't have a context to make it make sense. Like, if it isn't possible to feel faith, there can't really be such a thing as doubt. They are like two ends of a spectrum. In that way, they are like twins. But because they ARE such opposites, it is hard to see what faith could look like or be possible, when you are filled with doubt. And when you are in a state of doubt it is very painful and isolating. Did that help at all? I am also autistic, but language and philosophy are special interests, so if I can help further let me know :)
I'm similar. I'm a gender gray leaning cis woman and for me, I questioned my gender/sexuality because I just didn't feel as girly as everyone else. When i got into feminism which said there's no wrong way to be a woman (including being a trans woman), I stopped feeling that pressure to be a specific kind of woman, and as a result I stopped questioning my gender so much. I think if I woke up tomorrow in an xy chromosome body, I would just be like "most people would call mr a man, so I'm now a man," buy new underwear, and live my best life. So still gender gray, but also, very comfortable as a woman.
@Mark Jablon but at the end of the day, the benefits outweigh this. HealthyGamerGG content, no matter the discussion, always centers around understanding of oneself, your place in the world, and how that relates to others. This is all from hearing someone else's perspective through Dr. K's process. IMO it builds empathy in the best way possible.
@Mark Jablon I'm at mid time during the video and i'm kinda feeling the same. I'm feeling uneasy about it ... and kinda for her too. Even if she seems to be okay with it.
I feel like this is similar to a debate except instead of refuting her points to try and destroy her argument, Dr. K is picking apart what she says to try and lift her up and get her to heal. We need more wholesome content like this where people use their intelligence to build each other up rather than bring them down.
“DR.K DESTROYS trans woman’s self doubt with FACTS and LOGIC” in all seriousness, I’m pretty glad she’ll be able to listen to him and digest his points, especially considering that she studied philosophy
I think she finally cracked me guys...officially. When Natalie mentioned feeling like she was following a female "script" i had a chill go down my spine and realized that i felt the exact same...so many times. I'd been repressing the dysphoria and telling myself that i could be very good as a man if i wanted to be, and that I'd be giving up the privilege that comes with being a cis man if I admitted that I was trans, so I'd been ignoring the feelings. But there's no denying - I behave feminine, I can't relate much to men, all my friends are women, i walk like a woman and I talk like a woman. I look at my shoulders and hate that they are so huge. I'll look at my frame and hate my chest. I hate my beard and I hardly HAVE a beard (peach fuzz at best). I shave my body and I can't stand any body hair. I hate that I take up so much space and I want to be tiny but I'm not. i'm a woman - it's time to stop lying to myself. i can't do this anymore. EDIT: Hi, if you're a TERF about to comment something like, "Well not *all* women have to be cute and feminine, I find that implication to be offensive and stereotypical and not representative of all women" Have you considered that I *like* dressing up, wearing makeup, styling my hair, being romanced, etc? Doing girly shit? Kindly take your "concern" elsewhere.
Some have it worse than other i see. I can live happily as man, always had male friends ( out of the little friends ive had lmao) and walk and talk like a man. But still theres this weird feeling in the back of my head ya know? Ive been diagnosed with OCD since a child so who ducking knows.. lmao Good luck to whatever your journey is friend
I'm a cis straight male. This interview was very powerful and educational for me. I'm glad Natalie was able to talk to Dr. K and be vulnerable for others to learn.
@wayne young Cisgender is a term for people whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth. For example, someone who identifies as a woman and was assigned female at birth is a cisgender woman. The term cisgender is the opposite of the word transgender.
@@joshuawatkins2708 Do doctors really arbitrarily “assign” biological sex or gender at birth depending on how they’re feeling that day? I think “identify” is more accurate. Isn’t it weird that farmers know only to buy hens if they need eggs?
@@SkeletonModel91 I pulled the definition off of Google, but Google's definition could probably be more concise than it is. In the majority of births, a relative, midwife, nurse or physician inspects the genitalia when the baby is delivered, and sex is assigned (I think assigned is not a precise defining word. (I think assigned is just a place holder word so we can categorize people when they are born), without the expectation of ambiguity. Only the sex can be determined a majority of the time (exceptions being intersex cases). I would say that gender is loosely related to what the biological sex is at birth, but ultimately the child and the person they become will figure out whether their gender matches with their biological sex.
@@SkeletonModel91 no one thinks sex shouldn’t exist or be assigned, just gender, but you don’t want to hear that point, because no one is arguing aginst your point, you just want to bring it up to invalidate trans people. Parents already before the baby is even born be like I have a girl Imma buy pink cloths and babies she can play with and cooking toys and what not. That’s what they mean gender assigned at birth. Literally no one denies sex exists.
@@SkeletonModel91 it's not fully arbitrary, but it is based on an interpretation of the baby's genitals which may or may not be correct, and may or may not match their chromosomes. Of course that makes it some thing like 98% accurate, but it's using one thing to make an educated guess at another thing. And then it is legally assigned on your birth certificate (in the US anyway)
Mental health in general sucks greatly for trans people. I've been on both sides and definitely as a client I've found myself frustrated with my field because mental health workers are so inept with dealing with trans issues.
@SweetPotatoFries Thankfully I think the gaming community is finally letting go of it's "anti-libtard,facts over feelings" etc. type phase and becoming overall more diverse and accepting
I love Natalie's Contrapoints channel but never heard of Dr. K before, so I didn't know this "interview" was going to be a public therapy session. Turned out to be a bit of a "healing session" for me, too. Thanks!
You can probably blame Tumblr/Twitter for that. She and I have slightly different views on things, but I absolutely love her content. I would 100% stand behind her to represent and voice my concerns as a woman in transition.
I would pay a LOT of attention to who you’re hearing that stuff from. Contra has an amazing record throughout her TH-cam career and has been really morally consistent (and right)
She gets a lot of unfounded hate from people who'll maliciously misinterpret her content for Twitter fame I guess. It's very common among creatord who attract large numbers of followers, though. Best to form your own opinion, even if that means exposing yourself to content nobody's curated for you. :)
@@chardrive ill be honest ive heard it all from the mainstream media and always took it with a grain of salt, but i eventually saw her on live stream with dr.k from healthygamergg and i became a fan within minutes.
This man is such a good therapist. Constantly but gently digging deeper into vulnerable topics without malice or overstepping himself and being humble about what he doesn't know and what he is trying to be better at. He looks like a man not only well versed in psychology and counselling but also a man well versed in spiritual teachings and the more emotional and intuitive side of life. I'm glad I found this channel. You are doing good work as far as I can tell from the videos I've seen.
Honestly I am a cis woman and so often I resent women who are able to walk comfortably through life as women. I mean this in a way that they are traditionally and effortlessly beautiful, loved, and admired. They form social groups that most of my life I was ostracized from. They receive love and attention I could only dream of. I was very socially awkward as a young girl and just had a hard time navigating life in general. See this young girls live life as pretty happy young girls made me very jealous. I hate myself because I felt like that was what I was meant to live up to and I never would. I was a misogynist as a young woman for a while. I tried seeking refuge in social groups made mostly of boys but often was ostracized there as well for lots of different reasons. In my now 20s this has left me in a weird place where I don't have men or women and would love to be friends with any of them but I feel like I missed the train on friendship. I don't really know how to make or sustain friends so I just kind of walk through life without any close peers or support groups. I know I am cis and my identity problems don't align with gender in the same way. But I've found I feel gender envy for members of my own gender. All of this is to say if you don't find an automatic kinship with women it doesn't mean you aren't a woman. I know I am a woman and I feel like a woman. But even now a days I don't feel like I belong among women. It's probably for entirely different reasons. But I feel like trans women often have this sense of loneliness and it invalidates who they are. If you feel this way it's totally valid and you are still a woman. Lots of women trans or cis feel like this. edit: I didn't really expect this to hit a note with so many people. Thank you for all of the thoughtful and insightful replies.
Note: These are observations from friendships between women, some mistook love/attention as the romantic kind (attention from men) which wasn't what I meant :P I feel you on this, and I feel like such a stranger to the expectations imposed on me due to my birth sex, and even as I got to know 'attractive'/popular ciswomen and was made aware of their own personal struggles, I still envied the fact that they still received love and attention despite that, while I was further ostracized. It's gone so far as I beat myself up for past-wrongs that has been long forgiven, and trying to adhere to a code of not hurting others with my actions. I am terrified of making mistakes or being a burden... I just don't have the energy to socialize anymore.
@@BlameTheCake Yes to all of the above. I know I am just like a lot to deal with as well. The idea of forcing myself to function in a certain way in order to maintain relationships is sometimes just too much. It does seem worth it sometimes to just live the way I am now. But I guess coming to terms with being lonely is also difficult.
I don't want to go into a game of who was hurt more, but I think this situation is even more present for men. At least regarding the opposite sex. Most girls are still getting validation from men, while a large portion of men don't get that attention. It is at least compensated in friendships. As I see it, men can usually create better friendships. There is a comradeship there while women are tend to talk behind each-others back more often. Of course it is just a stereotype, but I think there is some truth in it.
I don't think this has anything to do with gender or "cis", sounds like you don't love yourself and struggle to find friends because you lack confidence, possibly due to something traumatic in your life, I have terrible confidence and lost all my friends due to a hermit lifestyle, so I can relate to feeling jealous of confidence (but I never thought confidence had anything to do with man or woman, straight or gay)
@Ordo I understand this feeling but trust me, men are just as prone to gossiping and talking behind one another's backs, of being petty and manipulating their 'friends'. There is often a false sense of solidarity in our behavior because that is what the culture tells us, that we are the 'logical' and 'consistent' and 'loyal' ones, when in reality the forced machismo of that and mocking of men who show empathy, who have doubts and fears, who don't leap into grueling work and suffering in the workplace, it often becomes a cage that isolates and devalues you as a man. It tells you you have to suffer, that you have to be The Best at all times if you want that validation. Its self-destructive and self-harming. As a counter point, would also add that the kind of 'validation' women get (I assume you mean from men?) can often be dubious in practice. Taking this from my wife and from my sisters, nothing was more disheartening to them than to find out a man's interest in them was not from a platonic place - one that that valued who they were as a friend and person - but was because the man in question felt a sense of amorous or romantic emotion toward them that they did not feel in return. And how much it hurt them for the men in question, who they considered friends at the time, eventually went cold when they expressed they were not interested in them in that capacity. It really makes you question what their intent is. Naturally, the culture here that isolates men and pushes them toward self-harm, plays into this behavior as well - these men undoubtedly feel pushed to pursue a relationship whenever they gain an ounce of female attention, and actively mocks them if they maintain a platonic relationship. Its deeply unfair to both sexes.
I began questioning whether or not I was supposed to be female as a child. As an adult I realized that this is fairly common for women, because they way we are sexualized makes us uncomfortable. I agree with ehat Natalie says about how not everyone who wuestions their gender identity is trans.
@@deviljho4260 That's not what they're for. They're not for proving things. They're personality processing and reflection tools. In astrology, there are leos who self-describe as leos, and there are those who don't. The ones who don't, do not see themselves in leo, and those who do, do. It's not accurate based on birth, but is accurate based on who identifies with it. And as for MBTI, it's a 1 in, 1 out system. It just repeats back to you the information that you give it. Neither of these things are pseudoscience, because they're not science at all. They're hogwarts houses. They're communication tools. They're shorthands for personality information. Whether you love them or hate them, chances are, you're reading too much into them. In short, they are what they are, and they do what they do, nothing less, nothing more.
@@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice they attempt to prove that the complexities of ones personality and shortcomings can be boiled down to a few boxes and segments which is inaccurate. Astrology’s whole concept is that people’s personalities are assigned from planetary and star placements arranged at their time of birth which then causes what your personality traits will be. so to make it accurate based on who identifies with it makes no sense because realistically everyone should relate to it if it were true. As self reflection tools it is also useless because it doesn’t even tell you your true personality traits. it’s mostly something people use for fun and very few people actually use it as a tool for self reflection. Basic self awareness is what most people use instead of these weird personality cults for self reflection. They’re not communication tools, they’re just poor extremely simplified attempts at explaining personality.
@@deviljho4260 You're literally just ignoring everything I pointed out. You don't have to participate, but don't lie about other people's relationship to it just because you don't personally value it.
2:11:15 This made me cry. As a trans person, I never really had a role model or someone to look up to in my life but that all changed the moment I found you, Natalie. You have helped me tremendously and inspired me to live authentically more than anyone else has ever done. Your videos have gotten me through some very tough times and I will always be grateful for that. I hope you know that you are loved&admired and will always be an older sister to us. Thank you for everything
“Being a boy was ok, being a man wasn’t”-unless I’m an egg I think cis people like me can relate to that a lot. I don’t want to be muscular, I don’t want to be covered in hair, some things just don’t exist in my even hypothetical self-image update: am prolly a femboy 14/12/21 - she/her feels sooo good 12/9/22 - bought my first nice dress ^.^ 19/9/22: actually wearing girlclothes in public now, wish me luck 5/11/22 - seeing a gender counsellor on the route to get HRT. I’m currently identifying as transfemme non-binary and my depressed outlook on my future for the first twenty years of my life is beginning to change drastically 30/11/22 - I HAVE THE HORMONES 15/2/23 - 2.5 months on HRT! Emotions on girl hormones are an absolute rollercoaster and it’s just a matter of time now before my chest gets too big to hide :) I’m getting a bit too big for the closet.. 23/2/23 - hormone doses doubled, and I have the beginnings of boobs. Also swimming in femwear is incredibly liberating omfg. I don't have to show my chest!! 4/3/23 a friendly reminder that post-puberty is NOT too late to start a successful transition. I was 21 and I have a lot of height dysphoria, but it's helped looking around carefully and realising there are actually a lot of tall women out there, and they're not any less pretty for it 28/4/23 I moved out and into a queer-friendly flat. It's been a really tough change but I can girlmode every day now that I want to 24/6/23 coming up on 7 months on E. I'm wearing femme all the time, am increasingly confident about it and my parents seem to be improving. Parents may be a coin flip at first but things can definitely change 20/1/24 just over a year on HRT. My chest is small but pretty obvious now, my silhouette is different, and my hair is touching my shoulders now which makes my curls look much nicer. I still don't know what my endpoints is, but I _know_ I feel happier. My vocal muscles are already different after a year of consciously changing the way I speak. Voice seems to be a particularly bad insecurity among transfems because it's easy to believe it can't change, but with sustained effort and the right advice it really can.
Wow. I've never seen Dr. K's channel before, so I didn't know this interview was going to basically be a fly-on-the-wall view of a therapy session. Thank you to Natalie for being so open and vulnerable. I feel a vicarious sense of catharsis from watching. And thanks to Dr. K for being so insightful and honest with the questions!
Beware it is not therapy and Dr. K is really clear about that! :) that can be done only in private. Still super informative and useful, but better be clear :)
@Fallen Archangel gender is about what is internal inside of your psyche. your gender thus isn't always the same as your genitals, your chromosomes, etc. That's why gender and sex are two different words, to describe 2 different things that can often align. She accepted her gender, she doesn't have to fake it. Her living like a man if she mentally isn't is the fake part. ...tbh I have no idea why am I responding to you. You think gender and sex are the same thing, cant comprehend the science about it probably and think "it/its" pronouns can be used for humans. You probably aren't willing to learn.
@Big Brother What you're saying is just wrong. Bravery comes in all shapes and sizes. I think you'll find the definition of bravery is very impartial to historical context... @Fallen Archangel And you're talking about biological sex - which no trans person denies they can't change. Archangel, imagine for a second that you are an adopted child. Every day you talk to your mother and father. One day you need to go to the doctor, and a question about family medical history comes up. At that point you might refer to them as your adopted parents, or guardians. This is similar to the difference between the definition of gender and sex. Society is an artificial framework with maleable definitions. There is nothing fixed or biological about your name, clothes, etc., and yet that is how we assume genders. Just like there is nothing biological about an adopted child referring to their mother as 'mother', and yet that is fine. You say trans people "fake" their gender, but fundamentally you are the one operating under a fake definition of what even determines it.
@Fallen Archangel when you use "it/its" pronouns for people because of your inability to understand how English works you stop having a right to define words like "sex" and "gender".
@Fallen Archangel If 'social gender' is such a useless subject to you, then don't pretend you have any authority over it. You know, people who are fine with what society has given them often conflate their comformity to society with comformity to nature, and project that on everyone else.
I think a big reason for him being able to do that is because he first gets on their level. He first listens and pays attention before giving out those right things to say. Doesn't mean he always gets it right or gets to 100% but it's a lot better than trying to say the right thing after 5 minutes of listening
Fantastic talk. For trans people, and this applies to autistic and other marginalized people, "being yourself" is fraught with contradictions. Often when we do "be ourselves" and own it (as I once did as a confident kid) we discover that we are treated as what we are not. We are misgendered or mischaracterized or misunderstood. Not seen. Especially when we are young, we don't even know why we're not being seen. As we learn who we are vs how we are seen by society, we learn to hide and mask in compensation. To elicit a more "normal" response from society, to see how we would be treated without the prejudice. Considering that social change takes time, often lifetimes, it's like a sneak peek into the life we could have had, as the only way to experience the life we could have had. Paradoxically, we are hiding in order to be seen. Even if Natalie accepts she is a trans woman and owns it, it's simply the harsh reality that she will not have the life she wanted (of being accepted as a woman wherever she goes the way cis women are) because society also needs to change for that to happen. It doesn't mean she can't have a good life, or carve out a life where she's accepted as a woman most of the time, but she needs to grieve that life she cannot have. For those of us who are desperate to change society, it's very difficult to accept reality in the present moment without feeling like we're accepting reality as it will always be, and surrendering to the status quo. We only get one life, and life is short; we will never fully see the fruits of what we fight for.
Underrated reply! The way you explain "unseenness" resonates so much with me. Masking, trying to appear "normal", when being normal means being boring. What is even "normal"? I have so many friends that don't fit the "social norm", but in their group, they're free. There's no "society" it's just them. And they are unapologetically themselves, and that's why I love being with them.
God, I am not trans (bi), but hearing her talk about the transition really hit me. I have endometriosis, and hearing him tell her that recognizing that she's not going to get "better" she's always going to be trans like... hit different. I came to that realization about my illness last month (that I'm never going back to "normal"). I still haven't stopped crying about it. Completely different topic, but it seems like the feeling of regret or denial is largely the same.
Oh my gosh, thank you - your post actually made me cry! Addressing what we can change about our situation & accepting what we can't - it can sounds trite, but is SUCH a hard process. (Writing this as a cis woman living w endo + collection of other chronic medical crap; just spent a year gradually coming to terms with self-identifying as "a disabled person", and accepting my current limitations & strengths...)
:/ I'm so sorry for your suffering. My ex had that and it caused a lot of complications. She went from career oriented to dead on the couch over the course of a year and I wish you the best.
Natalie, talk about regret. I'm 66 years old, struggling with dysphoria since i was a child. I wake up every morning with crippling dysphoria and regret. I look at you and I think how lucky you are, how I wish I could have what you have. Wishing you the best. I've been a fan of your channel since the beginning. I love your work. Just to be clear, I have not transitioned and I do not plan to transition.
People are so critical of her, it’s horrible. She’s a delightful woman and she makes incredible commentary video. Her commentaries open so many people to many different viewpoints, these days, a lot of people get up in arms when one person has multi-layered perspectives on a variety of topics. I hope more people understand that not everyone is going to have the same views, that’s the importance of intellectual empathy.
similar with me. i don’t mind people saying ‘she’ and ‘girl’ in reference to my past self, like before maybe 10 - i definitely was a girl, but a lot of things happened, and that identity didn’t fit anymore.
Yeah I'd probably be in a much better place transition wise if I had a spine. Would be able to come out a lot earlier, argue against my family and force their hand when they refuse to honour even basic respect.
this video has been in my timeline for that whole year, but I was anxious about possibly looking at Natalie being picked apart for entertainment. What I saw instead was a delicate dialogue between two extremely sophisticated and insightful persons, turned into a secondhand therapy session about my own identity issues. Can't help but respect both Dr. K and Natalie even more.
as a trans person this is incredibly helpful to me. I’m interested in analyzing my own psychology, but rarely is any thought given to the specifics to transgender people in psychology books. I’m so grateful Natalie was willing to be emotionally vulnerable here.
Awesome! I wish you all the best with that process! ♥️ Just wanted to make sure to share that, in my experience, going at it alone has the potential to make things worse because no matter how smart and introspective we are, out mind is 10× better at fooling us. Especially learning the difference between productive looking back on feelings to heal vs retraumatising oneself is a thin edge to walk on. Be careful and good luck ♥️ I hope you have someone to talk to, though I think Dr. K is honestly great at finding things we all need to learn in his Interviews :)
If you are looking for books on the subject, I'd like to suggest "Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism" by Patrick Califia-Rice, who worked (still works?) as a psychologist in SF. I worked with him, briefly, at a counseling center in SF, and can attest to his sincerity and advocacy for acceptance of trans identity in the psychological field. The book is a *little* dated, and may not speak to the specific questions you are examining, but, I found it very well-written and engaging.
Came here for Contra, sticking around for the doctor. He's doing good work here, and I look forward to digging through the archives. Also, MAJOR props to Natalie for putting herself through this so publicly. Takes major guts. I know her videos are pretty open, but this kind of emotional vulnerability takes bravery to explore with just one other person in the room, much less an audience of thousands...
The only video I've seen of her is the JBP video and she got so much wrong in that one that I can never take her seriously anymore. I'm sure she's a great person and all but mental health issues don't justify intellectual dishonesty
@@MinecraftMasterNo1 actually she makes pretty good arguments in that video but I mean, it's okay if you don't agree with the video, but that doesn't make her intellectually dishonest.
@@jorgeazem9511 Her entire argument is that everything he says is gibberish, literally. She spends the entire video justifying the fact that since nothing he says makes enough sense to her, it's all nonsense and we shouldn't take any of it seriously.
Massive props to Dr K for navigating the difficult waters of trans discourse so well when he didn't even know Natalie was trans prior to the session holy shit
@@alittlemoresonic42 I don't know where you completely misunderstood what I was getting at, but my entire point was that her channel is dedicated to her experience as a trans person and her opinions on what it is like to be trans, so that means he did zero research before inviting her to the show which is an extremely odd thing to do.
"If you don't accept yourself as a trans woman, you are placing a value on cis women above trans women." Oof that hit me hard. I love Contra Points and as a deeply self loathing trans woman, this really helps me. Thanks for all the great content!
What helped me with self loathing is definitely thinking about if I said the same thing to another person, and if I wouldn't then I shouldn't tell that to myself either.
@@skejeton This! I can say that this exercise definitely helps put the hurtful words we tell ourselves into perspective and if not completely stop them, at least dial them down bit by bit.
A friend of mine told me off recently for saying something self-loathing the other day. “How dare you speak about my friend that way!” I stopped, laughed for about three seconds, and then burst into tears. Sometimes we need to see ourselves like we’re someone else, and just as worthy of kindness as other people are. I don’t want to be the guy who talks about anyone that way, and if I’m talking about myself like that then I still am, and I still have a ways to go.
Same, this shift in perspective gave me a jolt. I'm trans too (MtF), hated and hurt myself in many ways for many years, yet when I see a trans woman out in the wild, all I see and feel is love and admiration. They make me feel so proud of them because I know the courage it takes.
2 years later and doubt she will see this, but Nat, just wanna say you educated the shit out of at least one cis male dummy, and i know im not the only one. You deserve to be loved, and all the happiness in the world. You are an amazingly inspiring person. The pressure you must deal with though being such a public face i cant even imagine. But you are such a positive force in this world. You've done so much for the world already, and you really dont owe us anything more. Thank you for everything.
The thing about watching Contrapoint's old videos in order is that you don't see as she does an awkward transition. You're watching a goddamned super hero origin story, seeing her being awesome and marrying brilliance with an increasingly brilliant aesthetic and finding herself too. It's very touching and a crucial insight into a trans person's journey. Also the content itself was of course amazing. They're all a must watch.
@@patrick1126 Unfortunately yeah, they were kicking her gender dysphoria into overdrive so she deleted them. Healthy decision, but still a shame for us, notably because it was very clever and insightful stuff, even outside of her transition. The scripts are still on her website I believe.
When I’m saying horrible things to myself I stop myself and ask “would I say this to someone else?” And the answer is always no. I think it helps find the compassion and empathy that he was trying to get her to give to herself.
Reminds me of a lyric from a song called Television by an English punk band, Idles. It goes like this: If someone talked to you The way you do to you I'd put their teeth through Love yourself!
this video advances the peace treaty i had with myself. i am a transwoman and that’s totally valid. i feel like i just took a leap of faith to stop being delusional and accept myself for who i am. i found myself not wanting to be a girl or a boy for a long time until i realize that i can choose to stop being so obsessed about my gender and just close my eyes, then feel. and then be. through this video i learned to be aware of how much i wanna conform to everyone. i didnt realize that i am discounting my uniqueness as a human. i am who i am and i am where i should be. i am content. i am a courageous human being who happens to be a transwoman. light and love for all of us ❤
I knew about Contrapoints before, never watched any of her content. But damn she is very smart and logical in what she is saying and her viewpoints. I am very impressed!
I knew of her for maybe a year before I got around to watching her videos. As a "knee-jerk Liberal", I reflexively support LBGTQ rights, but I still dragged my feet about watching her content, but once I started, I was smitten with her humor, compassion and intelligence (she ain't bad lookin' either!) & I watched all of her CP videos & interviews. She's wonderful!
I needed this video. Changed my whole perception of myself as a transwoman. I will never be an XX woman, and that's ok, because XY women, like myself, are ok.
It's easy to say that, but for a lot of people the infertility, constant need to take pills, bone structure and inevitably deep/light voice just ruins that line of thought.
@@williamboshi1855 the booboo is the part of the skin that got damage, usually little kids ask their mothers to kiss the booboo to make the pain go away.
The only video I've seen of her is the JBP video and she got so much wrong in that one that I can never take her seriously anymore. I'm sure she's a great person and all but mental health issues don't justify intellectual dishonesty
@@MinecraftMasterNo1 Try her video about men. It is pretty interesting. Even if you don’t agree with her on all points she does make you think and asks some important questions.
This was honestly one of the most healing things I have ever watched. I’m also a trans woman, and contra’s videos have been important to me for a long time, but every bit of this conversation hit home for me in such a raw, unmediated, human way. I cried! Thanks so much. Contra’s experience and intelligence + Dr. K’s empathy and insight = weepy chef’s kiss
Speaking as a trans woman, shame and envy is a huge part of being trans, especially in the early stages. So, I completely understand where Natalie is coming from. I can see that accepting ourselves as trans, and not as biological women, would be a huge comfort. However, that is a giant hurdle.
Could you maybe help me out with your experience? I often long to become and live as a (trans) woman. Currently I live as a gay man and usually date bisexual men who I think can accept and or benefit of my very feminine longing/sexuality. So there is a strong wish or dream in me to become also physically more congruent with those ideals of myself as a woman. On the other hand I don't hate my body as such in the sense of a strong body dysphoria. I am somewhat satified with my current situation but I imagine I would be happier transitioning. Under those circumstances would you recommend me exploring this more or will the ordeal be so huge, that it should only be tried if gender dysphoria is very strong and I couldn't live at all without a transition? Any opinion or remark I would highly appreciate.
@@histologie4140 being trans doesn't need to be defined purely through pain or dysphoria, despite that being a common or often talked about part of the experience. If you think you would be even happier or more comfortable as a woman or as nonbinary, then don't be afraid to start trying it out. Whether it be with how you present, the pronouns you use, a name change, or talking to a therapist about what you're feeling (if u have the means to), there are a lot of small steps you can take to start getting a feel for how a new identity fits you. Remember that any small steps like those are reversible and impermanent. Even once you take bigger steps into transition, detransitioning is nothing to be ashamed of, although it is not very often that people want to do so because there are so many trials and challenges that confirm how you feel about it before the point of medical transition. So don't worry about fitting a stereotype of suffering, just try to be honest with yourself about what you want and dont be afraid to experiment.
@@fatjamescorden1597 Envy comes from the transgender person. They are often envy of cis people and 'passing' trans people. They often constantly compare themselves to these people, and are often envious. As I said, trans especially feel envy when a trans is first starting out and doesn't quite look how they feel inside.
I’m trans and I sadly live in Saudi Arabia and I’m 19 years old. I’m gonna watch this since I heard it was a grouper therapy for everyone even those who aren’t trans I’ll update when I’m done
@@deku3i great, I still go to college in Saudi and I probably gonna continue for couple more years but after that I'll go abroad and try to live outside of there. Thanks for asking
Listening to this, as a therapist, makes me think about the challenge of trying to be insightful but still recognizing your ignorance about someone else's experience. This is true for anyone, but its highlighted in a setting with a cis therapist and a trans woman. He doesnt seem particularly familiar with trans issues- not as I am at least, but enough to be respectful. Sometimes he could have phrased something in a little more sensible way, and this familiarity would have helped then- but he recognizes this limitations also. I wonder what is like... an optimal balance between being assertive about insights the other person might be overseeing, but remaining the position that the person is their own authority about their experience.
I'd say the optimal balance probably differs wildly between different people, but as an added complication you can only learn so much about another person's world in a short time and how much can you compress an alien concept or experience while still giving them a clear idea of what it's like so they can actually offer something helpfully. Especially if it's a concept where you're constantly being attacked on and already being defensive about criticism in bad faith about.
Maybe the familiarity came from the comments you're describing as potentially disrespectful. I guess Natalie would be in the best position to answer that question. Maybe he knew something about Natalie through direct interaction with her in such a way that what you're interpreting as clumsy phrasing is actually the right phrasing for Natalie. Goes back to the challenge of how to when you know enough to perform an action or make definitive judgment versus when you don't. On my psych rotation as a student I got bad evals on most of the interviews I did according to the therapist, but the doctor suddenly had a high opinion of how far I had come after an interview with a guy who was also struggling with alcohol addiction just like I was. And something totally changed about how I talked to him and I thought the doctor was just seeing what he wanted but I didn't believe it. And let's be honest, people are authorities on their own experience up to a point. If not, the very concept of self-deception wouldn't exist. I used to be in total denial about my addiction and others saw it waaaaay before me while I was lying to myself and harming myself. It's an interesting question: when do people need self-assurance and empowerment and confirmation and when do they need guidance that they might initially resist but that resistance is exactly why the guidance is needed. Parents tend to grow an intuition for answering this question because they're answering it repeatedly and getting interesting feedback on their answers.
Excellent comment, I might’ve add that I’ve perceived dr k as a highly honest and insightful in his area of expertise, I do resonate with you that him talking a little more informed about the trans issues might’ve add way more insight to their audience and could potentially help in this regard but he he came across as at least very respectful and understanding. But yes, more info frames the situation in a very descriptive way and it really helps seeing the whole perspective in a way more refined manner.
I speculate, because this is not the only video of his I’ve seen that in, that it’s because he is a psychiatrist and a couch. I don’t know that he’s a therapist. I still really appreciate all of his insight and love his videos. But I can recognize that much of what he does is not therapy. Because most trained therapists are actively trying to listen as much as possible and contribute therapeutic approaches they deem appropriate to the disorders or problems they uncover in the therapy. Dr K gives great coaching. Not a lot of therapy. And to be fair I don’t think he really claims to be a therapist. And I don’t think a session with him is a substitute for therapy and he might be the first one to tell you that.
The very week this video was aired, I discovered this channel. Contrapoints is my favorite TH-camr. I feel like this is the exact video I needed to watch at this point in my life. Inspiring and insightful. It's astonishing how coincidences work. Superb content, Dr. K. Greetings from Mexico.
The only crucial topic that I think was left out of the conversation is the safety of passing. I feel like a lot of us come to accept ourselves regardless of passing, but the fear of being hate crimed or discriminated against due to our identity overcomes that self acceptance. The fear comes from our own head as he says, but that sense of safety is extremely real and out of our control (when you don't pass). I don't know exactly how to apply that to this conversation but I think it has to be included
I think it's safety plus a lot of other things. For me at least most of it is a self esteem and shame thing. With all of the negative conversations around trans people it's easy to believe that nobody will ever accept you for all of you. But in the real world, people are a lot more forgiving and curious. Just give them a chance to show that kindness and curiosity and have the courage to stand up for yourself if they show themselves intolerant and incurious
This was so intense to watch. At times I felt a little guilty, as if I should not be watching because it is very personal, on the other side I am grateful I could watch because I can relate to so many things. Natalie looks so cute, delicate, beautiful and sad and it broke my heart! I strongly hope for her to reach a point where she truly sees herself for the absolutely amazing woman that she is.
This is so important on the whole LGBTQ+ community. I've seen a lot of internalize-transphobia and internalize-homophobia within our own circles and a lot of times people go around and put it as a villainize thing but in reality all of us have it whether we like it or not. Myself as a Pan/Bi person caught myself feeling weird when I do mannerisms because I don't want to be seem as "one of those" but being one of those has nothing wrong; and yeah we could blame our society because of patriarchy and the heteronormative but at the end of the day all of us make a society. And let me tell you a lot of straight people they don't give a fuck about how we dress or how we act (of course there are exceptions homophobia and transphobia still exist), often we pretend because we want to pass within our own community; we don't want to be seen as "one of those". I think fighting society has a lot to do with it but before we form a society we need to start with ourselves and then we can branch out to others. Going around scolding straight people and calling them "homophobes" when a lot of them are just ignorant on the topic is kinda hypocritical when we ourselves do it even when we know is not correct.
I mean I had a conversation with my boyfriend (They're nb) today about how even though I am bisexual and dating a nonbinary person, I don't feel gay enough to speak on gay identity things. Maybe when I've married them and adopted 3 kids I'll feel more legitimate, but I've still distanced myself from that reality
i've always hated those terms to be honest "internalized insert phobia here"....mostly because i hate when other people make assumptions (really any assumptions about me) about my internal state and they assume I could only hold a particular view because I must secretly hate myself. There's just something so fucking arrogant about that that makes my blood boil. But. This interview helps me contextualize the term a bit more that sometimes we do have an internalized self hatred that leads to certain behaviors and thoughts. and its not so much of a phobia as much as its just a lack of self acceptance. I still think we should be careful not to project anything "internalized" onto other individuals whose brains we are not inhabiting, however.
Unlike most of TH-cam, ContraPoints’ content is refreshingly family-friendly, safe for work, and G-rated! As she said in the Justice video, “I am a wife, a mother, and....um.... (???).. and a woman with values! Just kidding, I’m tryaashh!”
@@MsFeyCreature thank you for your comment, it is so positive and appreciative, made me feel very good about myself. you are totally right, crying doesn't make you weak. have a nice evening
I first heard Nat on Blaire White's channel. And I can't express how essential she became over the last two years. There is just _so much_ value in her presence, even when she has nothing to offer. I just wish _she_ knew that.
Just wanted to throw it out there. Natalie I've only seen three of you videos and you've helped me realize so many of the misconceptions I've had about trans individuals. So you may not be perfect yet but your struggle is helping to inform and change the minds of others. That is pretty fucking cool.
The exercise and thing that Dr K talks about in the "fear of being judged" segment about looking at your past self and thinking about what past-you needed etc. reminds me of reparenting your inner child. One of the questions you ask your inner child is what they need and then try to provide it for them by telling them it to them or writing them a letter. Sounds a bit weird but for people with trauma (particularly from childhood) it can be very helpful. Like in the video, you can do the same thing for your past self at any age. It's kinda funny how we can find it very difficult to think about ourselves compassionately but if we create some distance or imagine talking to a stranger, we can be way more compassionate.
Thank you so much. When I read "ask your inner child what they need" I started to cry. I don't think I've ever thought of myself in that way, and you freed me in a way. I don't think I've ever asked myself "what do I need" let alone asking my inner child or even my past self. Nor did I ever consider providing it for "them" either. My past self needed a shoulder to cry on, and you helped me see that. Thank you.
I didn't know anything about Natalie going into this and this is one of the best doctor k's session I've seen so far coming from the perspective of a heterosexual bio male with no real knowledge or understanding of the trans experience. I related to her experiences more than I thought I would especially the self hating and the assumptions of what others are thinking and how they view me.
I'm a trans woman too and this felt a lot like second hand therapy. Whew. Y'all should make this a regular podcast I love Natalie so much, she deserves all the love in the world.
@@dasdasdadadadad8915 this sounds like you’re saying in 20 years she’ll realize she isn’t trans which is likely not the case and kind of a shitty thing to say. you can’t presume to know this person’s life story, don’t project onto them
@@evieyaknot necessarily. 20 years is a really long time where you can learn a great deal. And frankly a lot of trans people are immature given that a lot of us are under 25. I'm betting I'm still transitioned when I'm 45 years old but I'll hopefully have a lot more life experiences to shape my perspective by then
Natalie is so much stronger than I am. Even though I am not trans, I am gay and many of the struggles and realizations that she goes through during this conversation are so relatable that I had to stop myself from breaking down while Natalie just answered every question with such strength. Thank you both for having this conversation!
As a cis woman who struggles with disordered eating and female beauty standards, I empathise with Natalie’s internalised and externalised disgusts and hatred so much. On one hand, society tells us what a beautiful body is and on the other we allow it to be correct and project that onto ourselves and others. And then we feel bad for seeing ourselves and others that way. We feel like a bully. I think it’s hard to tease apart where the problem truly lies, of course I do a lot of the negative self talk to myself. But society also reinforces my disgust and hatred by agreeing with me. I think there’s a fine line between kinda “privatising” these issues because of course I need to change and grow myself, but certain socially constructed ideals and systems of oppression do exist and should also not go blameless or unexamined. Transphobia does exist and Natalie experiences a shit ton of it from all sides of the internet and irl, sometimes we just gotta admit that we do be living in a society. In my personal journey of recovery I’ve learned to not blame myself as much for feeling the way I do. Anyways, this was so lovely. As a huge Contra stan, I’ve gotten to know some of the ugliest parts of the internet very well. Good to know that there are kind, understanding and positive spaces as well 💓
I am also recovered from ED (at least mostly) and I think that the trans idea that you have to alter your body to feel acceptance is a difficult conundrum when you suffer with dysphoria based on weight instead of gender because without physically harming yourself, this can't be 'fixed'. A turning point in my ED and when I finally tried to recover was when I realized that altering my body would not give me any more happiness, because I hated myself when I was smaller or bigger. The difference seemed that when I was starving I was also miserable in other ways. This is different for a trans person because I think physically changing their appearance will give them a greater sense of relief. But I think ultimately for both of us the work that must be done is internal to finally accept your appearance
It really is hard, but we all have to commit to that (especially us women). If we actually want to fight rigid beauty standards, we have to stop validating them and trying to conform to them and using those same standards to judge other people and ourselves. We have to love ourselves first, respect our bodies, understand that we are more than our bodies or any conditional/temporary features, and only then can we actually be a part of the change. I relate to what you say though, immensely. I've had body image issues my whole life, and disordered eating for most of my adult life, and it's really hard to both acknowledge the feelings of insecurity and self-doubt, but not give in to them at the same time. Not judge yourself for having those feelings - because we do live in a society where there are expectations and consequences for not meeting those standards, so it's only natural to be preoccupied with image. But also trying to reject those standards in how you see yourself and others. It's hard work, and it's what I'm in therapy for.
When Natalie referred to herself as a “he,” I felt such a strange chill. I am a cis female, and was listening to Natalie’s words as if I were her, in an attempt to immerse myself in her experience. When I heard “he,” I was still in an immersive headspace, and felt like it was being referred to me. I can’t describe the discomfort and disconnect I felt towards that word. I am sure that is exactly how a trans woman, and Natalie, felt being referred to as such. I felt irrational anger on her behalf.
@@BigGainer98 Who said I was angry? You're telling me it wouldn't make you uncomfortable being referred to as a "she"? Since I assume only a man would comment something like this.
Omg can this guy be my therapist 🥺 this was fucking so brutal and beautiful. @ContraPoints you are, as always, inspringly brave to do what's essentially a therapy session in real time. To depict a breakthrough like this on camera, wowza. You're the most emotionally honest, reflective, and beautifully transparent person I've seen in life or online. This is amazing!
I can't thank Dr. K enough for all the content that he makes. This is seriously one of the best free educational content you could get on internet. It is so wholesome and true. Not only his therapy sessions are great, but also his character, which is bright like a thousand suns. I've been in therapy for one year with a therapist and I've never felt what I feel when I'm watching Dr. K. I am so grateful to be able to watch his videos as I continue my healing journey.
This is easily my favorite Natalie Wynn interview Ive seen. I always really resonate with Natalie's perspective on the trans experience and it was really cool hearing her interviewed about that specifically rather than talking at length about incels, fascists, political twitter, and being a TH-camr. Those things are interesting, but I've always been the most interested in her reflections on her own personal experience of being trans. Although my story is very different from hers, I find her perspective on things like self perception and interacting with society in its various forms really relatable.
2:10:23 Note: The habit of "being on the other team" has a tendency of arising as a defense mechanism that says "I will see all my faults before they point them out, because I can deal with them before they point them out. That way, I have more control over the hurt that will come my way. I believe cannot stand their criticism, so I do it myself beforehand so that it is not a cold shower moment". We start this process early in life as a survival mechanism, and perfect it so that we hurt ourselves (or just victimize ourselves) so that we have the illusion of control on the outcome. Too bad that this "armor of pain" isn't useful for "swimming" in life.
This makes a lot of sense to me and that exactly explains what I do.. srry I stumbled upon this video at the right moment and as a transwoman I'm kinda in a breakthrough and finding more insightful wisdom through the comments.. Thank you.
In the end is just playing 4D chess with yourself but any chess player can tell you how mind numbingly tiring can a single match become I can guess all the horrible things people might say about me until the sun blows up, and come up with apt little zingers to defend myself with but that doesn't erase the fact that I just imagined people telling and thinking horrible stuff about me for hours before even getting out of the house...
Holy crap. Thank you for doing this. Contra's "Shame" video has helped me through a hell of a lot in dealing with my orientation. I'm... not finished, not even close, but Natalie's video about coming out has a strong undertone of "Until I accept it myself... There is no way to move forward". She deals with this in a very personal way, a way that I can't mirror, really, but I have taken some parts of it to heart and applied them in my life, going forward. Dr K's video helps provide further question to the next step. Dealing with how toxic I am towards myself. That was always the problem, for me. The samskara that's built up within me feels like a monstrosity of a hydra that is impossible to defeat - and guilt about that, the very guilt Dr. K describes (the part about people that moved on with their life having regrets of not doing it sooner...), is all-consuming. The whole covid thing hasn't helped, either. But this video is yet another step. Thank you, Dr. K, for the clarity. And thank you, Natalie, for helping me start the path.
Cut that hydra down one head at a time. Take those shameful and guilty memories and genuinely feel them, being them into your mind in a safe place and let yourself really feel that shame. You gotta process
I honestly wept through the second part of this interview and oh my god Natalie I really-really want you to be happy, and find peace and closure from all this pain.
I love seeing her not in her performance mode , just chatting and thinking aloud about stuff . A very talented , interesting and good hearted person . Im barely interested in all the online feuding stuff . I just love her contribution to the public , and her bold ridicule of the ignorant people often running our lives from positions of power .
FYI she has a channel called Contrapoints Live where she just plays games like Morrowind, Stardew, and RE and you get a lot more of the unedited Natalie.
This was super interesting and also super heartwarming as a person in therapy who has questioned inner trauma and identity. I've laughed, I've cried, I've examined my metaphysical reality. Great.
I honestly never knew who she was. I watched a single video from her channel ContraPoints about 2 years ago and it completely changed my mind about a lot of issues that I honestly never agreed upon. Her videos and the arguments she makes is so clear and concise that it amazes me how I never knew of her before.
I cried through so much of this, Natalie is so similar and the points brought up mean the world to me. I'm 27 debating on what I want to do feeling like I'm so late and have the same distaste for myself. I thought I was alone in this and although I feel like I've made some progress I felt stuck. After this though I feel like I truly have some healthy avenues to explore and discover. Thank you both so much.
I'm so glad he chose to focus on her self-bullying, because the way she talks about herself in her videos is so upsetting, I can't even imagine how she talks to herself in private. Natalie is easily one of the most beautiful, brilliant people on the planet, but I don't know if she'll ever fully comprehend that.
Unfortunately I think a lot of, if not most trans people really struggle with that battle, just like her. It's hard not to see yourself that way when going through such a difficult, world altering life transition like that. When you know you're different, and you don't fit in, but then figure out WHY you're different, and then you STILL don't fit in? That's tough man. I struggle with it too. My family and especially friends will tell me similar things as what you said about Natalie. My self esteem and self image make it hard to comprehend the nice things people say about me though, and even though I know my brain is lying with the bad things it says, I still believe it more than them for some reason. It's a very difficult pattern to break out of, and it's one that's also reinforced/affirmed by the very loud transphobic people online
@@rileymachelle4088 Yeah I'm sure it's worse with so many people being desperate to spot a trans person just so they can make them feel like they're not "fooling" anyone. At least with me being... unfortunate-looking, most people don't go out of their way to let me know they think that, but it seems like transphobes, specifically the terminally-online, one foot in the alt-right pipeline transphobes, would sell their souls to make a trans person feel less than.
@@rileymachelle4088whats funny is its not an issue that one singular person ever feels. I think even non queer people feel this way to and regular cis people can feel alien and ousted from everyone. Its super intersectional and even people who are neurodivergent or have a disability or is underrepresented can feel this way. What im saying is you're not alone if you feel this way. There are people who are the same. Some find each other and create a community and some are okay with not fitting in and flourish in their uniqueness. You will be okay
when u live in a society that rather u be "dead" then i can understand why. As someone who also is nonbinary/agender with austism and adhd dx its no wonder i too talk to myself so harshly as well. tho I'm more accepting of my gender identity its how my neurodivergence caused most of the pain.
In the short time I’ve identified as a trans person, I don’t think I’ve ever felt more valid and understood in my new identity than watching this video. I’m so happy that I’m not alone own experience and relationship towards my gender and society’s view of gender. Thank you. So much.
@@Allison_Hart Maybe start with the idea of yourself as a little kid? It's harder to beat up on a little kid, and that age is where a lot of our issues or samskars come from. Then work your way up with older versions of yourself. That has helped me.
@@Allison_Hart My sister recently got a lizard and it's beautiful to hear her talk about him and how adorable he is. I don't know if she saw the connection but she also told me about how bad she felt when she was depressed years earlier and she felt like she didn't take care of her cat well enough. I felt like she wanted to feel more love in her life and didn't know how to do it by just looking at herself. Because I've tried that and that's too hard for me and we're alike in that way. It's hard to look at yourself and see anything to love. The way she's learning and relearning how to do it is by being around what she loves. That's her family and some new activities she thinks could be awesome to succeed in and her cute little lizard. I like to think of cute little 5 year old me. That kid is easier to love than 26 year old me. But most of the love comes from thinking about others. Like my family and friends.
I have so much respect for the trans people who have to survive every day warring within themselves between needing to pass to be safe in some situations vs. needing to be beautiful and valid and accepted *as* trans and not *in spite of* being trans. I can only imagine how much extra energy it takes to navigate that kind of codeswitching and anxiety, and I just admire you all for surviving in a world that is not as welcoming as it should be. If you need a hug today, here is a virtual hug ❤
Thanks to both of you. This was really insightful. I'm now pretty sure that instead of being non binary, I am actually just a cis girl who is scared to be an adult because I was abused my whole life until I was 17. I'm 18 now and I'm crying because this is a lot to process.
Just reaching out to say it's shit that happened to you, and you didn't deserve it. You deserved so much better. I hope the path ahead is brighter and you find a place of safety and peace.
It’s okay, when I was younger too I questioned what I was supposed to be and who I was and this was back in the day when homophobia and transphobia was super common… but regardless I think it’s pretty normal. Teenage years are all about questions and trying different hats on. If it doesn’t fit you then it doesn’t fit you, it’s completely okay. Gender like sexuality comes in many colors!
![ละลาย (LALALYE) - DAOU PITTAYA ต้าห์อู๋ พิทยา [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wo6r9TgausI/mqdefault.jpg)
1:12:31 "The internet is going to call you many things Natalie, but coward is not going to be one of them" That hit me hard.
Dr k knows his stuff with words :)
Reminded me of a meme these days: "Im cringe, but I'm free". Words to live by.
Right in the funnybone
@@DerpingTurtle where's your super popular philosophical-social commentary vids that get millions of views? But yh yh what a 'coward'.
@@DistrictWitch i think theyre doing the thing where they uphold their supposed superiority on her by opposing to what theyve been told they cant possibly call her ie a "coward" in order to show that she holds no power, typical oppressor behaviour, lets bring out the fucking guillotines
I had a fairly negative opinion of Contrapoints, or Natalie, for years now. I can't even be sure where it came from, possibly from her video on Jordan Peterson of whom i was a blind fanboy of at the time. Listening to this conversation changed my perspective of her so much, she's a very brave soul, really introspective and smart. I'm definitely gonna check out more of her content in the future.
definitely revisit that video, its a great entry point to her content
I saw that and got turned off
There were some things i thought weren't interpreted correctly. She also made some accusations which were non sensical.
Her other videos are great though. A very thorough analysis is a gift these days.
@@arnavrawat9864 Do you have examples?
Yeah, I have some deeply held opinions about people I got when I was a right-wing reactionary. Sometimes I need to remind myself that a lot of people I had solidified as bad people in my young developing brain are actually really good and I had been misled into disliking them. Coincidentally, when I was in this phase I was also a Jordan Peterson fan--and Bench Appearo, Steven Crowder, etc. I feel like a lot of people have similar experiences with being big fans of these creators as young kids and then eventually getting more educated or mature as time progresses.
@@ezra8440 I mean, i still like Jordan, i think he's fundamentally a decent person, but same as everyone else he's wrong more often than his fans would like to admit. In any case, it's very important to give people a chance, you might have some deeply rooted misconceptions about someone without ever realizing it.
At 23 minutes when she says "Being a boy was okay, becoming a man wasn't," it really resonated with me as a "late bloomer" cis lesbian. Dating boys was fine, I genuinely cared for the men I dated. But as I approached adulthood and marriage entered the equation and became an expectation in these relationships, I was filled with existential dread I couldn't name. The prospect of having a husband, or more like being the wife of a man, was suddenly too real and I had to face the truth that I actually was fundamentally not on board with having a man as a life partner.
thanks for sharing
I actually know a kid personally who was okay with being a boy. The moment I mentioned that he was growing up to become a man (speaking on development) he gasped like it was something that hit him. I wonder if eventually he will struggle with his own identity.
I can relate to that existential dread. For me it seems to be the other way round. I'm a gay man, as of now, but somehow can only really thrive romantically and sexually in a very (stereotypical) feminine role, had most fulfilling experiences with bi or 'straight' men. I phantasize a lot about being a man's wife and have been asked repeatedly by my partners since my teenage years if I'm sure that I am not actually aspiring to become a (trans) woman. I've suppressed those feelings for some years thinking that maybe I was just internalizing their insecurity about homosexuality. But slowly those ideas come up again more frequently. At the same time I don't have gender dysphoria in the sense of despising my body, which is rather feminie though... well, I guess it's really complicated making such a far reaching decision...
@@histologie4140 It could be possible that you are non-binary. I don't think you have to have gender dysphoria to be trans. Dysphoria is a condition that comes with SOME trans people but how you identify is up to you.
@@histologie4140 It's complicated like you say, but if there was a word that perfectly defined 'gay man that has a preference for occupying a feminine role in a relationship', it feels like maybe you'd grativitate towards that word...you'd still be you. In any case, whether society is making you feel like you should be in the right category, or possibly ex partners, as long as you live a lifestyle that feels true to yourself, you're already winning
When she said "you don't seem to be disgusted", it broke my heart a little. She is such a beautiful soul!
Nah he’s not. He’s a hate-filled man.
made me cry because i know that feeling
Me too ! I think it's so hurtful for trans people to go around, assuming people will just harbor disgust at you everytime
I think I finally figured out why a lot of people fucking hate her on twitter. Because she admits in this video that she says a lot of transphobic things, and it never fazed me because it was always immediately obvious to me that she was talking about herself. She wasn't trying to hurt other people, she's just airing grievances about herself aloud, but some people don't see it as self-abuse, they have the same problem as Natalie; they feel the same hurt, so when they hear these things, it adds fuel to their own internal monologue and, they think she's talking about them when she's only sharing her discomfort with herself.
@ksts45Ⓐ Ok, I will admit the cancel culture stuff was weird, but IIRC, the NB stuff on twitter was just a miscommunication, since it was about cis people only introducing pronouns because she was there. It was a minor gripe that got misconstrued as hating pronoun circles and the people that do them. Unless I'm missing something else, she hasn't been that bad on twitter except for the cancel culture speech
@@joymoding totally agree
@ksts45Ⓐ she's since experienced cancel culture herself because of the twitter NB event. She made a very good video on it, and delves even deeper with the cringe and shame videos.
all worthy of further consideration.
@ksts45Ⓐ her take on nb people wasn't even that bad and was mostly misconstrued and misunderstood, but the reaction against her was so insanely vitriolic and overblown that her complaining about cancel culture... well, made a lot of sense actually.
Who isn't Twitter mad at??
As a longtime fan of Natalie and a first-time viewer of Dr. K., I have to say I'm in awe of both his incisiveness and her willingness to engage in a very vulnerable process. Much respect to both. Turns out there's two people in this video whomst I stan.
@@MissMarvel_ I have! Watched a couple more videos and am very impressed.
Welcome to the channel. I hope you find some very helpful talks. c:
@@Maelthorn1337 Thanks! 😊
WHOMST
@@Iwasjustwondering89 Hey how are you?!
I'm not even trans and this is therapeutic. Processing regret is so difficult
The struggle of self-discovery/self-understanding is Universal
@@tomisaacson2762 definitely, even if we cant empathise 100% as we dont have the same exact experiences, there are fundamental struggles that bind us together
I'm not trans either, but I could relate to the trouble of navigating societal expectations of what "a man" has to do, be, look like, think, etc...
It's not easy if you're a firefighter-paramedic, but you don't drink and don't really like grilled meat. It confuses people. To the extend that I, as a totally-cis mostly-straight man, have been asked if I was gay many, many times.
correct.
I am trans. But it is true.
Yes, there is so much I would want to say to myself 10 years ago about how things will feel better, but not in ways I would expect
What I’ve realized about Natalie: She’s shy, and she’s more fragile than we tend to see her. It’s not fair that she’s expected to be just as indestructible as she appears in her videos. She doesn’t deserve that.
So true.
*he
@@havz0r hee hee - Michael Jackson*
@@havz0r *hav
@TheDooOver espacially not if they want to be. Wanting a position can always be treated something like wanting power. If you want it too much, you probably don't deserve it. Noone deserves the decision of either dying for humanities sins or becoming god, even if its just in the mind of other people.
"Being a boy was ok, but being a man wasn't." Holy shit I was there. Actually a lot of what Natalie is saying really resonates
That's because he confuses the definition of a man with the definition altered by society.
Most boys who spot problems with this early have trouble accepting to mature into a man.
@@DreamingConcepts I'm so confused. The doctor host dude (sorry, forget his name) didn't confuse any definitions that I could tell. What are you talking about? Natalie was talking about her experience of adolescence and not resonating with manhood.
It made so much sense to me when she said that!! Blew my mind
@@commbir5148 Transphobes make being confusing into a sport.
@@commbir5148 the person was referring to natalie with he pronouns
this is my first time to see Natalie outside of her own videos and she actually seems a lot more shy and awkward than what is portrayed in her videos and I love to see it because it really humanizes her
she's said before that her personality is completely different on camera than irl
@@overgrownkudzu as a performing artist, it's very, very common, if not a rule, that the personality you see on screen is different from the actual person. Actual people have to pay bills, wait to get seated at restaurants, deal with in laws, etc. Actors play larger than life characters to make a point or tell a story. It's why propaganda is so dangerous and why art is so meaningful.
Yeah, I feel like the way she portrays herself in her work she seems kind of indifferent to the truth or more accurately uninterested in philosophy which I believe to be the study of the truth, when I know that if she is making a philosophy video she definitely cares about it but I kind of just got the vibe from the video she didn’t but from this it is definitely obvious that she cares.
She's not shy or awkward. This is how regular people act when it's not a scripted dramatization.
@@overgrownkudzu Yeah I'm a pretty shy person but whenever I'm put in a position where I'm out in the open or I need to step up to do something I put on the persona of a confident who knows exactly what to do. It's not the same as being on camera, but it is similar, like maintaining a public appearance vs private personality.
natalieeeeee
eeeee
T1Jaaaaaaaaaae ♡
@@yoavsnake eeeee
It's T1J [follow him] bois
Das jus me doe intensifies
I really respect the way Natalie seems to have a kind of dedication to the truth. Like, she cares about complexity and nuance. She doesnt want to BS herself or other people. I wish her all the peace and happiness in the world!
100% agree with this!
exactly ❤️
Sarah Bears Beautifuly said. Thank you.
Natalie is an awesome person
How is telling yourself you are stuck in the wrong body not bullshitting yourself? A trans person's entire identity is a lie. Being a biological male trying to be more "feminine" is obviously a refusal to accept that you are a male.
I’m transitioning and the “being a trans woman is an ok thing to be and be seen as” thing is so important and so hard to do. It was helpful to hear Natalie talk about that. Thanks to you both.
Good luck with your transition!
As if one transition wasn't enough, and now you've gotta transition to accepting a different meaning of transition!
Best of luck fren🤘
Thanks ya’ll :)
sending love.
He keeps asking intensely personal followup questions and she just keeps getting braver and going deeper… Thank you both, this is incredibly therepeutic
Came for Contrapoints, stayed for the parasocial therapy session. This was really helpful to me as a trans guy!
"parasocial therapy session" is a perfect way to describe it, and Dr K is the psychiatrist I wish I had a session with
@@alecrobinson7124 I'm kinda nervous about the fact you'd say this. It's got a very similar feeling to people seeing professional dungeon masters online and thinking that's what real D+D looks like or watching porn and thinking that's what actual sex looks like. Yeah DR K is a great therapist and it's great you can get some kinda catharsis out of watching his interviews, but going to therapy once a week/month is not gonna look the same as what you're seeing on twitch/youtube with something like this.
@@russellstephens3580 Well, porn and movies are different because there is a certain script, and they are expected to behave a certain way. Whereas for this, I don't believe Natalie was following any sort of script judging by her reactions/wording (as well as Dr. K's; both talked to each other without knowing exactly how the convo was gonna go). I do not believe Dr. K is doing anything particularly different or unrealistic as how a "good" therapist would; for sure the longer sessions are better than the standard 1-hr sessions of "regular" therapy (to my experience anyway), but that's the only unrealistic part I can really discern. What I mean is Dr. K's performance is not an unrealistic standard that other therapists cannot meet, which is the key difference between this and porn/professional DnD (since most DM's are not pros, they do it as a hobby)/other forms of curated media. Dr. K is trained, but any experienced, competent therapist would also be trained and licensed.
I don't think that wanting to have a session with Dr. K is necessarily a bad thing, so long as you'd be relatively content with the sessions with the other (competent) therapist(s) you do end up seeing, if you do end up seeing them.
@@russellstephens3580 But porn is fictional, associating it with the real expectations of sex is obviously wrong. And expecting your once a month DnD group to equally have the same expectations as professional and paid voice actors is also obviously wrong. Neither are in any way similar to having a professional and trained psychiatrist who does a good job. There are many psychs out there who are as good as DR. K, so paying for a psych you feel you're not connecting with, and saying "i wish i could have a session with this therapist instead" is just... wishing for a better experience.
It's more like someone having a gardener, then seeing a really good youtube gardener and going "dang, I'd love them to come landscape for me". And then you step in like lol that's like saying porn is actual sex. Like lmao no? It's like saying you wish a paid professional in that field would do a good job for you.
Natalie's right, cis people can question their gender. I questioned my own gender for about a year. I didn't feel particularly at home in myself, I didn't feel very much like I was "manly" or that I wanted to be "manly". I wondered if I was agender or non-binary, and decided to adopt they/them pronouns for about a year. Ultimately, I began feeling comfortable with (perhaps even gender euphoria at) being identified as a man and calling myself one. Now I have a healthy and self-affirming conception of masculinity for myself! And you know what, I think questioning my gender ultimately helped me be happier and more secure in it.
As Kahlil Gibran once said:
"Doubt is a pain too lonely to know that faith is its twin brother."
i actually cant comprehend that quote at the end.
Idk if its my autism or what, but i dont understand lol
can you please explain
As a trans man, i think that is awesome, and oddly relatable. I struggled with accepting myself as a man for a long time because being raised as and living as a woman I had a really negative view of masculinity in general. I identified as gender fluid for a long time but realised I am actually a dude, and dudes can be many lovely and wonderful things too. My life has improved in many ways since transitioning and accepting who I am.
@@kkkkkkk2028 Without the existence of doubt, faith doesn't have a context to make it make sense. Like, if it isn't possible to feel faith, there can't really be such a thing as doubt. They are like two ends of a spectrum. In that way, they are like twins. But because they ARE such opposites, it is hard to see what faith could look like or be possible, when you are filled with doubt. And when you are in a state of doubt it is very painful and isolating.
Did that help at all? I am also autistic, but language and philosophy are special interests, so if I can help further let me know :)
Yeah I felt the exact same too
I'm similar. I'm a gender gray leaning cis woman and for me, I questioned my gender/sexuality because I just didn't feel as girly as everyone else. When i got into feminism which said there's no wrong way to be a woman (including being a trans woman), I stopped feeling that pressure to be a specific kind of woman, and as a result I stopped questioning my gender so much. I think if I woke up tomorrow in an xy chromosome body, I would just be like "most people would call mr a man, so I'm now a man," buy new underwear, and live my best life. So still gender gray, but also, very comfortable as a woman.
WOAH! Dr. K AND ContraPoints in one video? Sign me up!
Clicked for contrapoints. Didn’t know this was a public therapy session.-.
I bet a lot of people were lost because they weren't aware that he's a therapist 😂
Reading this comment a few minutes into the video kinda helped a lot thanks 😆
right holy SHIT i never imagined this type of content would even exist
@Mark Jablon but at the end of the day, the benefits outweigh this. HealthyGamerGG content, no matter the discussion, always centers around understanding of oneself, your place in the world, and how that relates to others. This is all from hearing someone else's perspective through Dr. K's process. IMO it builds empathy in the best way possible.
@Mark Jablon I'm at mid time during the video and i'm kinda feeling the same. I'm feeling uneasy about it ... and kinda for her too. Even if she seems to be okay with it.
I feel like this is similar to a debate except instead of refuting her points to try and destroy her argument, Dr. K is picking apart what she says to try and lift her up and get her to heal. We need more wholesome content like this where people use their intelligence to build each other up rather than bring them down.
💯
Absolutely
@@sorel7342 😅
This is the most political bloodsports way of describing a conversation 😂
“DR.K DESTROYS trans woman’s self doubt with FACTS and LOGIC” in all seriousness, I’m pretty glad she’ll be able to listen to him and digest his points, especially considering that she studied philosophy
I think she finally cracked me guys...officially.
When Natalie mentioned feeling like she was following a female "script" i had a chill go down my spine and realized that i felt the exact same...so many times.
I'd been repressing the dysphoria and telling myself that i could be very good as a man if i wanted to be, and that I'd be giving up the privilege that comes with being a cis man if I admitted that I was trans, so I'd been ignoring the feelings.
But there's no denying - I behave feminine, I can't relate much to men, all my friends are women, i walk like a woman and I talk like a woman. I look at my shoulders and hate that they are so huge. I'll look at my frame and hate my chest. I hate my beard and I hardly HAVE a beard (peach fuzz at best). I shave my body and I can't stand any body hair. I hate that I take up so much space and I want to be tiny but I'm not.
i'm a woman - it's time to stop lying to myself. i can't do this anymore.
EDIT: Hi, if you're a TERF about to comment something like, "Well not *all* women have to be cute and feminine, I find that implication to be offensive and stereotypical and not representative of all women"
Have you considered that I *like* dressing up, wearing makeup, styling my hair, being romanced, etc? Doing girly shit? Kindly take your "concern" elsewhere.
among us
Shoutout you, live your truth
best of luck
Some have it worse than other i see. I can live happily as man, always had male friends ( out of the little friends ive had lmao) and walk and talk like a man. But still theres this weird feeling in the back of my head ya know? Ive been diagnosed with OCD since a child so who ducking knows.. lmao
Good luck to whatever your journey is friend
Good luck friendo, and congrats on your epiphany!
“Courage to be ugly.” That’s beautiful. You may have just saved my life in some future depression.
I'm a cis straight male. This interview was very powerful and educational for me. I'm glad Natalie was able to talk to Dr. K and be vulnerable for others to learn.
@wayne young Cisgender is a term for people whose gender identity matches their sex assigned at birth. For example, someone who identifies as a woman and was assigned female at birth is a cisgender woman. The term cisgender is the opposite of the word transgender.
@@joshuawatkins2708 Do doctors really arbitrarily “assign” biological sex or gender at birth depending on how they’re feeling that day? I think “identify” is more accurate. Isn’t it weird that farmers know only to buy hens if they need eggs?
@@SkeletonModel91 I pulled the definition off of Google, but Google's definition could probably be more concise than it is.
In the majority of births, a relative, midwife, nurse or physician inspects the genitalia when the baby is delivered, and sex is assigned (I think assigned is not a precise defining word. (I think assigned is just a place holder word so we can categorize people when they are born), without the expectation of ambiguity. Only the sex can be determined a majority of the time (exceptions being intersex cases). I would say that gender is loosely related to what the biological sex is at birth, but ultimately the child and the person they become will figure out whether their gender matches with their biological sex.
@@SkeletonModel91 no one thinks sex shouldn’t exist or be assigned, just gender, but you don’t want to hear that point, because no one is arguing aginst your point, you just want to bring it up to invalidate trans people. Parents already before the baby is even born be like I have a girl Imma buy pink cloths and babies she can play with and cooking toys and what not. That’s what they mean gender assigned at birth. Literally no one denies sex exists.
@@SkeletonModel91 it's not fully arbitrary, but it is based on an interpretation of the baby's genitals which may or may not be correct, and may or may not match their chromosomes.
Of course that makes it some thing like 98% accurate, but it's using one thing to make an educated guess at another thing. And then it is legally assigned on your birth certificate (in the US anyway)
Omg Natalie PLEASE make a video on Toxic Positivity. Also, he’s right, no one could EVER call you a coward. You’re incredible.
as another trans person, this has helped me more than any real life therapy i’ve had in my life 💀
literally same, as a trans guy.
same here
Dr. K tends to do that haha😂
Mental health in general sucks greatly for trans people. I've been on both sides and definitely as a client I've found myself frustrated with my field because mental health workers are so inept with dealing with trans issues.
@@nbisho01 so does contrapoints lol
NGL, this comment section should be filed under "restoring faith in humanity 2020"
i was so worried it would be filled with transphobes
@@tazppn5575
Me too
100% right!
@SweetPotatoFries Thankfully I think the gaming community is finally letting go of it's "anti-libtard,facts over feelings" etc. type phase and becoming overall more diverse and accepting
you bring nothing to the video thx
I love Natalie's Contrapoints channel but never heard of Dr. K before, so I didn't know this "interview" was going to be a public therapy session. Turned out to be a bit of a "healing session" for me, too. Thanks!
AOE healing is the aim of the channel : )
ive always heard awful things about contrapoints but like, she seems pretty amazing to me.
EDIT after binging her videos: She is amazing
You can probably blame Tumblr/Twitter for that. She and I have slightly different views on things, but I absolutely love her content. I would 100% stand behind her to represent and voice my concerns as a woman in transition.
I would pay a LOT of attention to who you’re hearing that stuff from. Contra has an amazing record throughout her TH-cam career and has been really morally consistent (and right)
She gets a lot of unfounded hate from people who'll maliciously misinterpret her content for Twitter fame I guess. It's very common among creatord who attract large numbers of followers, though. Best to form your own opinion, even if that means exposing yourself to content nobody's curated for you. :)
@@APfw-tri aye, well said my friend.
@@chardrive ill be honest ive heard it all from the mainstream media and always took it with a grain of salt, but i eventually saw her on live stream with dr.k from healthygamergg and i became a fan within minutes.
This man is such a good therapist. Constantly but gently digging deeper into vulnerable topics without malice or overstepping himself and being humble about what he doesn't know and what he is trying to be better at.
He looks like a man not only well versed in psychology and counselling but also a man well versed in spiritual teachings and the more emotional and intuitive side of life. I'm glad I found this channel. You are doing good work as far as I can tell from the videos I've seen.
He was actually a monk in India for some time actually before pursuing psychiatry! It was a pretty pivotal moment in his life I believe
@@cameronschyuder9034his experience of being a monk definitely has an effect on his practice
Honestly I am a cis woman and so often I resent women who are able to walk comfortably through life as women. I mean this in a way that they are traditionally and effortlessly beautiful, loved, and admired. They form social groups that most of my life I was ostracized from. They receive love and attention I could only dream of. I was very socially awkward as a young girl and just had a hard time navigating life in general. See this young girls live life as pretty happy young girls made me very jealous. I hate myself because I felt like that was what I was meant to live up to and I never would. I was a misogynist as a young woman for a while. I tried seeking refuge in social groups made mostly of boys but often was ostracized there as well for lots of different reasons. In my now 20s this has left me in a weird place where I don't have men or women and would love to be friends with any of them but I feel like I missed the train on friendship. I don't really know how to make or sustain friends so I just kind of walk through life without any close peers or support groups.
I know I am cis and my identity problems don't align with gender in the same way. But I've found I feel gender envy for members of my own gender. All of this is to say if you don't find an automatic kinship with women it doesn't mean you aren't a woman. I know I am a woman and I feel like a woman. But even now a days I don't feel like I belong among women. It's probably for entirely different reasons. But I feel like trans women often have this sense of loneliness and it invalidates who they are. If you feel this way it's totally valid and you are still a woman. Lots of women trans or cis feel like this.
edit: I didn't really expect this to hit a note with so many people. Thank you for all of the thoughtful and insightful replies.
Note: These are observations from friendships between women, some mistook love/attention as the romantic kind (attention from men) which wasn't what I meant :P
I feel you on this, and I feel like such a stranger to the expectations imposed on me due to my birth sex, and even as I got to know 'attractive'/popular ciswomen and was made aware of their own personal struggles, I still envied the fact that they still received love and attention despite that, while I was further ostracized. It's gone so far as I beat myself up for past-wrongs that has been long forgiven, and trying to adhere to a code of not hurting others with my actions. I am terrified of making mistakes or being a burden... I just don't have the energy to socialize anymore.
@@BlameTheCake Yes to all of the above. I know I am just like a lot to deal with as well. The idea of forcing myself to function in a certain way in order to maintain relationships is sometimes just too much. It does seem worth it sometimes to just live the way I am now. But I guess coming to terms with being lonely is also difficult.
I don't want to go into a game of who was hurt more, but I think this situation is even more present for men. At least regarding the opposite sex. Most girls are still getting validation from men, while a large portion of men don't get that attention.
It is at least compensated in friendships. As I see it, men can usually create better friendships. There is a comradeship there while women are tend to talk behind each-others back more often. Of course it is just a stereotype, but I think there is some truth in it.
I don't think this has anything to do with gender or "cis", sounds like you don't love yourself and struggle to find friends because you lack confidence, possibly due to something traumatic in your life, I have terrible confidence and lost all my friends due to a hermit lifestyle, so I can relate to feeling jealous of confidence (but I never thought confidence had anything to do with man or woman, straight or gay)
@Ordo I understand this feeling but trust me, men are just as prone to gossiping and talking behind one another's backs, of being petty and manipulating their 'friends'. There is often a false sense of solidarity in our behavior because that is what the culture tells us, that we are the 'logical' and 'consistent' and 'loyal' ones, when in reality the forced machismo of that and mocking of men who show empathy, who have doubts and fears, who don't leap into grueling work and suffering in the workplace, it often becomes a cage that isolates and devalues you as a man. It tells you you have to suffer, that you have to be The Best at all times if you want that validation. Its self-destructive and self-harming.
As a counter point, would also add that the kind of 'validation' women get (I assume you mean from men?) can often be dubious in practice. Taking this from my wife and from my sisters, nothing was more disheartening to them than to find out a man's interest in them was not from a platonic place - one that that valued who they were as a friend and person - but was because the man in question felt a sense of amorous or romantic emotion toward them that they did not feel in return. And how much it hurt them for the men in question, who they considered friends at the time, eventually went cold when they expressed they were not interested in them in that capacity. It really makes you question what their intent is. Naturally, the culture here that isolates men and pushes them toward self-harm, plays into this behavior as well - these men undoubtedly feel pushed to pursue a relationship whenever they gain an ounce of female attention, and actively mocks them if they maintain a platonic relationship. Its deeply unfair to both sexes.
I began questioning whether or not I was supposed to be female as a child.
As an adult I realized that this is fairly common for women, because they way we are sexualized makes us uncomfortable.
I agree with ehat Natalie says about how not everyone who wuestions their gender identity is trans.
INFP?
@@Shadow77999 myers Briggs = astrology. Both are pseudoscience and prove nothing
@@deviljho4260 That's not what they're for. They're not for proving things. They're personality processing and reflection tools. In astrology, there are leos who self-describe as leos, and there are those who don't. The ones who don't, do not see themselves in leo, and those who do, do. It's not accurate based on birth, but is accurate based on who identifies with it. And as for MBTI, it's a 1 in, 1 out system. It just repeats back to you the information that you give it. Neither of these things are pseudoscience, because they're not science at all. They're hogwarts houses. They're communication tools. They're shorthands for personality information. Whether you love them or hate them, chances are, you're reading too much into them. In short, they are what they are, and they do what they do, nothing less, nothing more.
@@Queer_Nerd_For_Human_Justice they attempt to prove that the complexities of ones personality and shortcomings can be boiled down to a few boxes and segments which is inaccurate. Astrology’s whole concept is that people’s personalities are assigned from planetary and star placements arranged at their time of birth which then causes what your personality traits will be. so to make it accurate based on who identifies with it makes no sense because realistically everyone should relate to it if it were true. As self reflection tools it is also useless because it doesn’t even tell you your true personality traits. it’s mostly something people use for fun and very few people actually use it as a tool for self reflection. Basic self awareness is what most people use instead of these weird personality cults for self reflection. They’re not communication tools, they’re just poor extremely simplified attempts at explaining personality.
@@deviljho4260 You're literally just ignoring everything I pointed out. You don't have to participate, but don't lie about other people's relationship to it just because you don't personally value it.
2:11:15 This made me cry. As a trans person, I never really had a role model or someone to look up to in my life but that all changed the moment I found you, Natalie. You have helped me tremendously and inspired me to live authentically more than anyone else has ever done. Your videos have gotten me through some very tough times and I will always be grateful for that. I hope you know that you are loved&admired and will always be an older sister to us. Thank you for everything
💖💖💖☺️
🥺🥺🥺🥺
Right there with you!
Hey. You're amazing.
So true. Being trans can be so isolating and it really does mean the world to have someone so smart and kind-hearted to look up to.
“Being a boy was ok, being a man wasn’t”-unless I’m an egg I think cis people like me can relate to that a lot. I don’t want to be muscular, I don’t want to be covered in hair, some things just don’t exist in my even hypothetical self-image
update: am prolly a femboy
14/12/21 - she/her feels sooo good
12/9/22 - bought my first nice dress ^.^
19/9/22: actually wearing girlclothes in public now, wish me luck
5/11/22 - seeing a gender counsellor on the route to get HRT. I’m currently identifying as transfemme non-binary and my depressed outlook on my future for the first twenty years of my life is beginning to change drastically
30/11/22 - I HAVE THE HORMONES
15/2/23 - 2.5 months on HRT! Emotions on girl hormones are an absolute rollercoaster and it’s just a matter of time now before my chest gets too big to hide :) I’m getting a bit too big for the closet..
23/2/23 - hormone doses doubled, and I have the beginnings of boobs. Also swimming in femwear is incredibly liberating omfg. I don't have to show my chest!!
4/3/23 a friendly reminder that post-puberty is NOT too late to start a successful transition. I was 21 and I have a lot of height dysphoria, but it's helped looking around carefully and realising there are actually a lot of tall women out there, and they're not any less pretty for it
28/4/23 I moved out and into a queer-friendly flat. It's been a really tough change but I can girlmode every day now that I want to
24/6/23 coming up on 7 months on E. I'm wearing femme all the time, am increasingly confident about it and my parents seem to be improving. Parents may be a coin flip at first but things can definitely change
20/1/24 just over a year on HRT. My chest is small but pretty obvious now, my silhouette is different, and my hair is touching my shoulders now which makes my curls look much nicer. I still don't know what my endpoints is, but I _know_ I feel happier. My vocal muscles are already different after a year of consciously changing the way I speak. Voice seems to be a particularly bad insecurity among transfems because it's easy to believe it can't change, but with sustained effort and the right advice it really can.
das why she said you don’t have to be trans to question your gender ID
Nothing wrong about that not everyone likes being hairy lol
Lol that update tho. We love character development.
LETS GOOOOOOO THE UPDATES YAYAYAYYA HSBEHDB POG
JASJXJJDCNJSNDJS THESE UPDATES OMG
Wow. I've never seen Dr. K's channel before, so I didn't know this interview was going to basically be a fly-on-the-wall view of a therapy session. Thank you to Natalie for being so open and vulnerable. I feel a vicarious sense of catharsis from watching. And thanks to Dr. K for being so insightful and honest with the questions!
Welcome. Hopefully you'll enjoy the rest of the channel. Its pretty much this vibe but on various topics and just as informative
+
Beware it is not therapy and Dr. K is really clear about that! :) that can be done only in private.
Still super informative and useful, but better be clear :)
What a brave human being, this video really opened my eyes to what trans people have to deal with.
Bravery was storming Utah Beach on June 6, 1944. This ain't it, chief.
@Fallen Archangel gender is about what is internal inside of your psyche. your gender thus isn't always the same as your genitals, your chromosomes, etc. That's why gender and sex are two different words, to describe 2 different things that can often align. She accepted her gender, she doesn't have to fake it. Her living like a man if she mentally isn't is the fake part.
...tbh I have no idea why am I responding to you. You think gender and sex are the same thing, cant comprehend the science about it probably and think "it/its" pronouns can be used for humans. You probably aren't willing to learn.
@Big Brother What you're saying is just wrong. Bravery comes in all shapes and sizes. I think you'll find the definition of bravery is very impartial to historical context...
@Fallen Archangel And you're talking about biological sex - which no trans person denies they can't change.
Archangel, imagine for a second that you are an adopted child. Every day you talk to your mother and father. One day you need to go to the doctor, and a question about family medical history comes up. At that point you might refer to them as your adopted parents, or guardians. This is similar to the difference between the definition of gender and sex.
Society is an artificial framework with maleable definitions. There is nothing fixed or biological about your name, clothes, etc., and yet that is how we assume genders. Just like there is nothing biological about an adopted child referring to their mother as 'mother', and yet that is fine. You say trans people "fake" their gender, but fundamentally you are the one operating under a fake definition of what even determines it.
@Fallen Archangel when you use "it/its" pronouns for people because of your inability to understand how English works you stop having a right to define words like "sex" and "gender".
@Fallen Archangel If 'social gender' is such a useless subject to you, then don't pretend you have any authority over it.
You know, people who are fine with what society has given them often conflate their comformity to society with comformity to nature, and project that on everyone else.
Dr. K really has the ability to nearly always know the right thing to say, it's amazing. I'm really grateful for his videos.
Yes he is well spoken
He is very well trained
I think a big reason for him being able to do that is because he first gets on their level. He first listens and pays attention before giving out those right things to say. Doesn't mean he always gets it right or gets to 100% but it's a lot better than trying to say the right thing after 5 minutes of listening
Almost like he is a professional thetapist
@@berserker8884 there are a lot of profesional therapist who can not replicate his interviewing skills
Fantastic talk. For trans people, and this applies to autistic and other marginalized people, "being yourself" is fraught with contradictions. Often when we do "be ourselves" and own it (as I once did as a confident kid) we discover that we are treated as what we are not. We are misgendered or mischaracterized or misunderstood. Not seen. Especially when we are young, we don't even know why we're not being seen. As we learn who we are vs how we are seen by society, we learn to hide and mask in compensation. To elicit a more "normal" response from society, to see how we would be treated without the prejudice. Considering that social change takes time, often lifetimes, it's like a sneak peek into the life we could have had, as the only way to experience the life we could have had. Paradoxically, we are hiding in order to be seen. Even if Natalie accepts she is a trans woman and owns it, it's simply the harsh reality that she will not have the life she wanted (of being accepted as a woman wherever she goes the way cis women are) because society also needs to change for that to happen. It doesn't mean she can't have a good life, or carve out a life where she's accepted as a woman most of the time, but she needs to grieve that life she cannot have. For those of us who are desperate to change society, it's very difficult to accept reality in the present moment without feeling like we're accepting reality as it will always be, and surrendering to the status quo. We only get one life, and life is short; we will never fully see the fruits of what we fight for.
Can I ask you how old you are?
@@Pohlmaster 34
Underrated reply!
The way you explain "unseenness" resonates so much with me. Masking, trying to appear "normal", when being normal means being boring. What is even "normal"? I have so many friends that don't fit the "social norm", but in their group, they're free. There's no "society" it's just them. And they are unapologetically themselves, and that's why I love being with them.
@@lyrics_m_sic Aw, thank you! ^^ I feel you completely
this was very insightful
my internet dad and mommy have finally met
Lmfao
who's the dad
Im telling jp you disowned him as dad
reddit moment
herm was cool when shim was my dad
Holy shit crossover
was not expecting this at all
I was thinking that she would make a great video on the topic of Dr K, but now, she's here! so ha! Thanks for the interview!
It's like a super hero team up episode. 😲
@@issasecretbuddy atually i was hoping for it
Best crossover event since elon musk and Justin roiland
God, I am not trans (bi), but hearing her talk about the transition really hit me. I have endometriosis, and hearing him tell her that recognizing that she's not going to get "better" she's always going to be trans like... hit different. I came to that realization about my illness last month (that I'm never going back to "normal"). I still haven't stopped crying about it. Completely different topic, but it seems like the feeling of regret or denial is largely the same.
Oh my gosh, thank you - your post actually made me cry! Addressing what we can change about our situation & accepting what we can't - it can sounds trite, but is SUCH a hard process. (Writing this as a cis woman living w endo + collection of other chronic medical crap; just spent a year gradually coming to terms with self-identifying as "a disabled person", and accepting my current limitations & strengths...)
❤❤❤ big hug.
:/ I'm so sorry for your suffering. My ex had that and it caused a lot of complications. She went from career oriented to dead on the couch over the course of a year and I wish you the best.
I just found out I have an ACC or adrenal cortical carcinoma. Outlook is not good. So I understand on some level. I genuinely hope you get better.
Jax mains rise up
Natalie, talk about regret. I'm 66 years old, struggling with dysphoria since i was a child. I wake up every morning with crippling dysphoria and regret. I look at you and I think how lucky you are, how I wish I could have what you have. Wishing you the best. I've been a fan of your channel since the beginning. I love your work. Just to be clear, I have not transitioned and I do not plan to transition.
maybe this isn't the right thing to say but you should transition :(
I have a family friend who did not transition until age 62. Everyone has their own journey. it is a beautiful thing ❤
natalie smiling more and more as the video progresses warms my heart
People are so critical of her, it’s horrible. She’s a delightful woman and she makes incredible commentary video. Her commentaries open so many people to many different viewpoints, these days, a lot of people get up in arms when one person has multi-layered perspectives on a variety of topics. I hope more people understand that not everyone is going to have the same views, that’s the importance of intellectual empathy.
Oof, “being a boy was ok but being a man wasn’t” hits too hard
I was pretty alright being a girl but not a woman, even typing out the word 'woman' in relation to myself makes me cringe.
similar with me. i don’t mind people saying ‘she’ and ‘girl’ in reference to my past self, like before maybe 10 - i definitely was a girl, but a lot of things happened, and that identity didn’t fit anymore.
This hit me pretty hard too. I had a higher tolerance for being called a 'girl' but 'woman' just felt alien and foreign.
This, absolutely
@@sunstrike2738 so it's not only mine experience
Gosh, this idea of regret being about wishing you'd had courage sooner is so widely applicable. I think that might be the core of regret in general.
Yeah I'd probably be in a much better place transition wise if I had a spine. Would be able to come out a lot earlier, argue against my family and force their hand when they refuse to honour even basic respect.
I genuinely wish Natalie did more casual types of conversations, I love to hear her speak, she's so introspective and smart
this video has been in my timeline for that whole year, but I was anxious about possibly looking at Natalie being picked apart for entertainment. What I saw instead was a delicate dialogue between two extremely sophisticated and insightful persons, turned into a secondhand therapy session about my own identity issues. Can't help but respect both Dr. K and Natalie even more.
as a trans person this is incredibly helpful to me. I’m interested in analyzing my own psychology, but rarely is any thought given to the specifics to transgender people in psychology books. I’m so grateful Natalie was willing to be emotionally vulnerable here.
Awesome! I wish you all the best with that process! ♥️
Just wanted to make sure to share that, in my experience, going at it alone has the potential to make things worse because no matter how smart and introspective we are, out mind is 10× better at fooling us. Especially learning the difference between productive looking back on feelings to heal vs retraumatising oneself is a thin edge to walk on.
Be careful and good luck ♥️ I hope you have someone to talk to, though I think Dr. K is honestly great at finding things we all need to learn in his Interviews :)
@@SomeSayApple Very true, I'll be careful
If you are looking for books on the subject, I'd like to suggest "Sex Changes: The Politics of Transgenderism" by Patrick Califia-Rice, who worked (still works?) as a psychologist in SF. I worked with him, briefly, at a counseling center in SF, and can attest to his sincerity and advocacy for acceptance of trans identity in the psychological field. The book is a *little* dated, and may not speak to the specific questions you are examining, but, I found it very well-written and engaging.
@@dudezillasf Thank you, I'll have to give it a read then.
Dude I am so fucking confused on trans people,someone help gender and sex.
Came here for Contra, sticking around for the doctor. He's doing good work here, and I look forward to digging through the archives.
Also, MAJOR props to Natalie for putting herself through this so publicly. Takes major guts. I know her videos are pretty open, but this kind of emotional vulnerability takes bravery to explore with just one other person in the room, much less an audience of thousands...
I just love hearing Natalie talking, such lucid and intelligent person.
And sweet! How could anyone have a problem with her?
The only video I've seen of her is the JBP video and she got so much wrong in that one that I can never take her seriously anymore.
I'm sure she's a great person and all but mental health issues don't justify intellectual dishonesty
@@MinecraftMasterNo1 actually she makes pretty good arguments in that video but I mean, it's okay if you don't agree with the video, but that doesn't make her intellectually dishonest.
@@jorgeazem9511
Her entire argument is that everything he says is gibberish, literally.
She spends the entire video justifying the fact that since nothing he says makes enough sense to her, it's all nonsense and we shouldn't take any of it seriously.
@@MinecraftMasterNo1 She's got a bunch of videos. Don't judge her on just one.
Massive props to Dr K for navigating the difficult waters of trans discourse so well when he didn't even know Natalie was trans prior to the session holy shit
are you sure about that
@@nobleradical2158 he says that in the interview he didn't know she was trans when he invited her onto the show
@@roselynschaotichouse3539 Then why did he? Her entire TH-cam channel is about talking about trans-related topics.
@@Kamishi845 you dont have to be trans to talk about trans related topics.
@@alittlemoresonic42 I don't know where you completely misunderstood what I was getting at, but my entire point was that her channel is dedicated to her experience as a trans person and her opinions on what it is like to be trans, so that means he did zero research before inviting her to the show which is an extremely odd thing to do.
"If you don't accept yourself as a trans woman, you are placing a value on cis women above trans women." Oof that hit me hard. I love Contra Points and as a deeply self loathing trans woman, this really helps me. Thanks for all the great content!
What helped me with self loathing is definitely thinking about if I said the same thing to another person, and if I wouldn't then I shouldn't tell that to myself either.
I am not trans, but when it comes to self-loathing sometimes pinching myself whenever certain thoughts come up helps.
@@skejeton This! I can say that this exercise definitely helps put the hurtful words we tell ourselves into perspective and if not completely stop them, at least dial them down bit by bit.
A friend of mine told me off recently for saying something self-loathing the other day. “How dare you speak about my friend that way!” I stopped, laughed for about three seconds, and then burst into tears. Sometimes we need to see ourselves like we’re someone else, and just as worthy of kindness as other people are. I don’t want to be the guy who talks about anyone that way, and if I’m talking about myself like that then I still am, and I still have a ways to go.
Same, this shift in perspective gave me a jolt.
I'm trans too (MtF), hated and hurt myself in many ways for many years, yet when I see a trans woman out in the wild, all I see and feel is love and admiration. They make me feel so proud of them because I know the courage it takes.
2 years later and doubt she will see this, but Nat, just wanna say you educated the shit out of at least one cis male dummy, and i know im not the only one. You deserve to be loved, and all the happiness in the world. You are an amazingly inspiring person. The pressure you must deal with though being such a public face i cant even imagine. But you are such a positive force in this world. You've done so much for the world already, and you really dont owe us anything more. Thank you for everything.
The thing about watching Contrapoint's old videos in order is that you don't see as she does an awkward transition. You're watching a goddamned super hero origin story, seeing her being awesome and marrying brilliance with an increasingly brilliant aesthetic and finding herself too. It's very touching and a crucial insight into a trans person's journey. Also the content itself was of course amazing. They're all a must watch.
That's 100% how I see it. ♡
You're watching the same clever, funny, compassionate person in all those videos. She shape-shifted, but it's still her.
100%
Didn't she delete a lot of older videoes?
@@patrick1126 Unfortunately yeah, they were kicking her gender dysphoria into overdrive so she deleted them. Healthy decision, but still a shame for us, notably because it was very clever and insightful stuff, even outside of her transition.
The scripts are still on her website I believe.
When I’m saying horrible things to myself I stop myself and ask “would I say this to someone else?” And the answer is always no. I think it helps find the compassion and empathy that he was trying to get her to give to herself.
I needed this. Thanks!
So true! We are more cruel to ourselves than others.
thank you ! I'm keeping this
Reminds me of a lyric from a song called Television by an English punk band, Idles. It goes like this:
If someone talked to you
The way you do to you
I'd put their teeth through
Love yourself!
I use the same method, I always ask "Would I say this to a friend?"
this video advances the peace treaty i had with myself. i am a transwoman and that’s totally valid. i feel like i just took a leap of faith to stop being delusional and accept myself for who i am.
i found myself not wanting to be a girl or a boy for a long time until i realize that i can choose to stop being so obsessed about my gender and just close my eyes, then feel. and then be. through this video i learned to be aware of how much i wanna conform to everyone. i didnt realize that i am discounting my uniqueness as a human. i am who i am and i am where i should be. i am content. i am a courageous human being who happens to be a transwoman. light and love for all of us ❤
I knew about Contrapoints before, never watched any of her content. But damn she is very smart and logical in what she is saying and her viewpoints. I am very impressed!
I knew of her for maybe a year before I got around to watching her videos. As a "knee-jerk Liberal", I reflexively support LBGTQ rights, but I still dragged my feet about watching her content, but once I started, I was smitten with her humor, compassion and intelligence (she ain't bad lookin' either!) & I watched all of her CP videos & interviews. She's wonderful!
I needed this video. Changed my whole perception of myself as a transwoman. I will never be an XX woman, and that's ok, because XY women, like myself, are ok.
if it matters to u, i 100% agree ^_^ you and natalie are fulfilling your karma just like that!!!
Not just ok - you're great.
That's the thing. Sure, I can agree with the concept being ok, but I just literally cannot get myself to accept that as me.
There's no such thing as XY woman. Accept you are a man and that doesn't prescribe how you live your life.
It's easy to say that, but for a lot of people the infertility, constant need to take pills, bone structure and inevitably deep/light voice just ruins that line of thought.
"you can't kiss the booboo if you don't know where the booboo is" Dr. K -2020
I don't know the idiom so this creeped me out lol
@@williamboshi1855 the booboo is the part of the skin that got damage, usually little kids ask their mothers to kiss the booboo to make the pain go away.
@@juan_frg ooh thanks for explaining, idk how I didn't connect the dots with the same word in french "bobo"
Here after Natalie dropped "Envy". It's interesting to hear them talk about it like 1 year prior :P
This is legit the best interview on this channel. Dr K. - you've got to bring Natalie back for more episodes. What an intelligent guest!
I really hope she can overcome her demons because she's doing important work.
Or watch her channel instead
The only video I've seen of her is the JBP video and she got so much wrong in that one that I can never take her seriously anymore.
I'm sure she's a great person and all but mental health issues don't justify intellectual dishonesty
A follow up ep would be interstinf :)
@@MinecraftMasterNo1 Try her video about men. It is pretty interesting. Even if you don’t agree with her on all points she does make you think and asks some important questions.
This was honestly one of the most healing things I have ever watched. I’m also a trans woman, and contra’s videos have been important to me for a long time, but every bit of this conversation hit home for me in such a raw, unmediated, human way. I cried! Thanks so much. Contra’s experience and intelligence + Dr. K’s empathy and insight = weepy chef’s kiss
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Speaking as a trans woman, shame and envy is a huge part of being trans, especially in the early stages. So, I completely understand where Natalie is coming from. I can see that accepting ourselves as trans, and not as biological women, would be a huge comfort. However, that is a giant hurdle.
Could you maybe help me out with your experience? I often long to become and live as a (trans) woman. Currently I live as a gay man and usually date bisexual men who I think can accept and or benefit of my very feminine longing/sexuality. So there is a strong wish or dream in me to become also physically more congruent with those ideals of myself as a woman. On the other hand I don't hate my body as such in the sense of a strong body dysphoria. I am somewhat satified with my current situation but I imagine I would be happier transitioning. Under those circumstances would you recommend me exploring this more or will the ordeal be so huge, that it should only be tried if gender dysphoria is very strong and I couldn't live at all without a transition? Any opinion or remark I would highly appreciate.
@@histologie4140 being trans doesn't need to be defined purely through pain or dysphoria, despite that being a common or often talked about part of the experience. If you think you would be even happier or more comfortable as a woman or as nonbinary, then don't be afraid to start trying it out. Whether it be with how you present, the pronouns you use, a name change, or talking to a therapist about what you're feeling (if u have the means to), there are a lot of small steps you can take to start getting a feel for how a new identity fits you. Remember that any small steps like those are reversible and impermanent. Even once you take bigger steps into transition, detransitioning is nothing to be ashamed of, although it is not very often that people want to do so because there are so many trials and challenges that confirm how you feel about it before the point of medical transition. So don't worry about fitting a stereotype of suffering, just try to be honest with yourself about what you want and dont be afraid to experiment.
Envy? From whom
@@fatjamescorden1597 Envy comes from the transgender person. They are often envy of cis people and 'passing' trans people. They often constantly compare themselves to these people, and are often envious. As I said, trans especially feel envy when a trans is first starting out and doesn't quite look how they feel inside.
@@histologie4140 Hi. I agree 100% with what Max says below. You do what makes you happy, and no one has the right to tell you differently.
I’m trans and I sadly live in Saudi Arabia and I’m 19 years old. I’m gonna watch this since I heard it was a grouper therapy for everyone even those who aren’t trans I’ll update when I’m done
Woah this was a spiritual awakening
@@cl4irv0yanc3 how are you doing?
@@deku3i great, I still go to college in Saudi and I probably gonna continue for couple more years but after that I'll go abroad and try to live outside of there. Thanks for asking
@@cl4irv0yanc3 good luck! I hope you succeed and get to live a happy life filled with supportive people
@@cl4irv0yanc3 Good luck!
Listening to this, as a therapist, makes me think about the challenge of trying to be insightful but still recognizing your ignorance about someone else's experience. This is true for anyone, but its highlighted in a setting with a cis therapist and a trans woman. He doesnt seem particularly familiar with trans issues- not as I am at least, but enough to be respectful. Sometimes he could have phrased something in a little more sensible way, and this familiarity would have helped then- but he recognizes this limitations also. I wonder what is like... an optimal balance between being assertive about insights the other person might be overseeing, but remaining the position that the person is their own authority about their experience.
I'd say the optimal balance probably differs wildly between different people, but as an added complication you can only learn so much about another person's world in a short time and how much can you compress an alien concept or experience while still giving them a clear idea of what it's like so they can actually offer something helpfully. Especially if it's a concept where you're constantly being attacked on and already being defensive about criticism in bad faith about.
Maybe the familiarity came from the comments you're describing as potentially disrespectful. I guess Natalie would be in the best position to answer that question.
Maybe he knew something about Natalie through direct interaction with her in such a way that what you're interpreting as clumsy phrasing is actually the right phrasing for Natalie. Goes back to the challenge of how to when you know enough to perform an action or make definitive judgment versus when you don't.
On my psych rotation as a student I got bad evals on most of the interviews I did according to the therapist, but the doctor suddenly had a high opinion of how far I had come after an interview with a guy who was also struggling with alcohol addiction just like I was. And something totally changed about how I talked to him and I thought the doctor was just seeing what he wanted but I didn't believe it.
And let's be honest, people are authorities on their own experience up to a point. If not, the very concept of self-deception wouldn't exist. I used to be in total denial about my addiction and others saw it waaaaay before me while I was lying to myself and harming myself.
It's an interesting question: when do people need self-assurance and empowerment and confirmation and when do they need guidance that they might initially resist but that resistance is exactly why the guidance is needed. Parents tend to grow an intuition for answering this question because they're answering it repeatedly and getting interesting feedback on their answers.
Excellent comment, I might’ve add that I’ve perceived dr k as a highly honest and insightful in his area of expertise, I do resonate with you that him talking a little more informed about the trans issues might’ve add way more insight to their audience and could potentially help in this regard but he he came across as at least very respectful and understanding. But yes, more info frames the situation in a very descriptive way and it really helps seeing the whole perspective in a way more refined manner.
I speculate, because this is not the only video of his I’ve seen that in, that it’s because he is a psychiatrist and a couch. I don’t know that he’s a therapist. I still really appreciate all of his insight and love his videos. But I can recognize that much of what he does is not therapy. Because most trained therapists are actively trying to listen as much as possible and contribute therapeutic approaches they deem appropriate to the disorders or problems they uncover in the therapy. Dr K gives great coaching. Not a lot of therapy. And to be fair I don’t think he really claims to be a therapist. And I don’t think a session with him is a substitute for therapy and he might be the first one to tell you that.
@@joelman1989 fair, yet there’s only so much you could display in just one short intervention
I was having such a bad day today. Hearing Natalie's voice is so calming. I really appreciate her and what she does
The very week this video was aired, I discovered this channel. Contrapoints is my favorite TH-camr.
I feel like this is the exact video I needed to watch at this point in my life. Inspiring and insightful.
It's astonishing how coincidences work.
Superb content, Dr. K.
Greetings from Mexico.
The only crucial topic that I think was left out of the conversation is the safety of passing. I feel like a lot of us come to accept ourselves regardless of passing, but the fear of being hate crimed or discriminated against due to our identity overcomes that self acceptance. The fear comes from our own head as he says, but that sense of safety is extremely real and out of our control (when you don't pass). I don't know exactly how to apply that to this conversation but I think it has to be included
@lilahlilac oh yeah certainly nothing against Dr. K, I just felt it should be said somewhere, even if only a handful of people read my comment :)
I think it's safety plus a lot of other things. For me at least most of it is a self esteem and shame thing.
With all of the negative conversations around trans people it's easy to believe that nobody will ever accept you for all of you. But in the real world, people are a lot more forgiving and curious. Just give them a chance to show that kindness and curiosity and have the courage to stand up for yourself if they show themselves intolerant and incurious
This was so intense to watch. At times I felt a little guilty, as if I should not be watching because it is very personal, on the other side I am grateful I could watch because I can relate to so many things. Natalie looks so cute, delicate, beautiful and sad and it broke my heart! I strongly hope for her to reach a point where she truly sees herself for the absolutely amazing woman that she is.
This is so important on the whole LGBTQ+ community. I've seen a lot of internalize-transphobia and internalize-homophobia within our own circles and a lot of times people go around and put it as a villainize thing but in reality all of us have it whether we like it or not.
Myself as a Pan/Bi person caught myself feeling weird when I do mannerisms because I don't want to be seem as "one of those" but being one of those has nothing wrong; and yeah we could blame our society because of patriarchy and the heteronormative but at the end of the day all of us make a society. And let me tell you a lot of straight people they don't give a fuck about how we dress or how we act (of course there are exceptions homophobia and transphobia still exist), often we pretend because we want to pass within our own community; we don't want to be seen as "one of those".
I think fighting society has a lot to do with it but before we form a society we need to start with ourselves and then we can branch out to others. Going around scolding straight people and calling them "homophobes" when a lot of them are just ignorant on the topic is kinda hypocritical when we ourselves do it even when we know is not correct.
this
I mean I had a conversation with my boyfriend (They're nb) today about how even though I am bisexual and dating a nonbinary person, I don't feel gay enough to speak on gay identity things. Maybe when I've married them and adopted 3 kids I'll feel more legitimate, but I've still distanced myself from that reality
this also applies very well to the "not like other girls" phenomenon
i've always hated those terms to be honest "internalized insert phobia here"....mostly because i hate when other people make assumptions (really any assumptions about me) about my internal state and they assume I could only hold a particular view because I must secretly hate myself. There's just something so fucking arrogant about that that makes my blood boil. But. This interview helps me contextualize the term a bit more that sometimes we do have an internalized self hatred that leads to certain behaviors and thoughts. and its not so much of a phobia as much as its just a lack of self acceptance.
I still think we should be careful not to project anything "internalized" onto other individuals whose brains we are not inhabiting, however.
Mannerism is not gay, u can be str8 and have manners
I loved this interview. Contra and Dr K are both so great.
Can I just say that Contrapoints is absolutely beautiful?
I don't know who Contrapoints is but everyone seems to like her so I'm excited
wholesome comment
you're in for a treat. Binge watch her videos!
She's amazing. Watch the Incel video, it's the ultimate modern Contrapoints video.
She's awesome! Her video essays are pure art.
Unlike most of TH-cam, ContraPoints’ content is refreshingly family-friendly, safe for work, and G-rated! As she said in the Justice video, “I am a wife, a mother, and....um.... (???).. and a woman with values!
Just kidding, I’m tryaashh!”
Natalie is so strong, i would be crying all the way through the conversation
That's also ok. I cry very easily but I'm strong as heck and I bet you are too.
@@MsFeyCreature thank you for your comment, it is so positive and appreciative, made me feel very good about myself. you are totally right, crying doesn't make you weak. have a nice evening
I first heard Nat on Blaire White's channel. And I can't express how essential she became over the last two years. There is just _so much_ value in her presence, even when she has nothing to offer. I just wish _she_ knew that.
Just wanted to throw it out there. Natalie I've only seen three of you videos and you've helped me realize so many of the misconceptions I've had about trans individuals. So you may not be perfect yet but your struggle is helping to inform and change the minds of others. That is pretty fucking cool.
The exercise and thing that Dr K talks about in the "fear of being judged" segment about looking at your past self and thinking about what past-you needed etc. reminds me of reparenting your inner child. One of the questions you ask your inner child is what they need and then try to provide it for them by telling them it to them or writing them a letter. Sounds a bit weird but for people with trauma (particularly from childhood) it can be very helpful. Like in the video, you can do the same thing for your past self at any age. It's kinda funny how we can find it very difficult to think about ourselves compassionately but if we create some distance or imagine talking to a stranger, we can be way more compassionate.
Thank you so much. When I read "ask your inner child what they need" I started to cry. I don't think I've ever thought of myself in that way, and you freed me in a way. I don't think I've ever asked myself "what do I need" let alone asking my inner child or even my past self. Nor did I ever consider providing it for "them" either.
My past self needed a shoulder to cry on, and you helped me see that. Thank you.
gosh she's so pretty
Fellas, is simping over Contrapoints praxis?
I'm going with yes
god i want to look like her xD she's so pretty and smart and funny
I don't know, needs more cat ears.
I didn't know anything about Natalie going into this and this is one of the best doctor k's session I've seen so far coming from the perspective of a heterosexual bio male with no real knowledge or understanding of the trans experience. I related to her experiences more than I thought I would especially the self hating and the assumptions of what others are thinking and how they view me.
I'm a trans woman too and this felt a lot like second hand therapy. Whew. Y'all should make this a regular podcast
I love Natalie so much, she deserves all the love in the world.
She's too hard on herself and has been mistreated very unfairly over the years but Natalie you already are my trans big sister
Wait 20 years then comeback here and comment. I would love to get an update from you then :). Love
@@dasdasdadadadad8915 this sounds like you’re saying in 20 years she’ll realize she isn’t trans which is likely not the case and kind of a shitty thing to say. you can’t presume to know this person’s life story, don’t project onto them
@@evieyaknot necessarily. 20 years is a really long time where you can learn a great deal. And frankly a lot of trans people are immature given that a lot of us are under 25. I'm betting I'm still transitioned when I'm 45 years old but I'll hopefully have a lot more life experiences to shape my perspective by then
Natalie is so much stronger than I am. Even though I am not trans, I am gay and many of the struggles and realizations that she goes through during this conversation are so relatable that I had to stop myself from breaking down while Natalie just answered every question with such strength. Thank you both for having this conversation!
Everyone's on their journey, so there's no need to compare yourself to others. Just get inspired cus you have the strength within. Wish you the best.
As a cis woman who struggles with disordered eating and female beauty standards, I empathise with Natalie’s internalised and externalised disgusts and hatred so much. On one hand, society tells us what a beautiful body is and on the other we allow it to be correct and project that onto ourselves and others. And then we feel bad for seeing ourselves and others that way. We feel like a bully. I think it’s hard to tease apart where the problem truly lies, of course I do a lot of the negative self talk to myself. But society also reinforces my disgust and hatred by agreeing with me. I think there’s a fine line between kinda “privatising” these issues because of course I need to change and grow myself, but certain socially constructed ideals and systems of oppression do exist and should also not go blameless or unexamined. Transphobia does exist and Natalie experiences a shit ton of it from all sides of the internet and irl, sometimes we just gotta admit that we do be living in a society. In my personal journey of recovery I’ve learned to not blame myself as much for feeling the way I do. Anyways, this was so lovely. As a huge Contra stan, I’ve gotten to know some of the ugliest parts of the internet very well. Good to know that there are kind, understanding and positive spaces as well 💓
I am also recovered from ED (at least mostly) and I think that the trans idea that you have to alter your body to feel acceptance is a difficult conundrum when you suffer with dysphoria based on weight instead of gender because without physically harming yourself, this can't be 'fixed'. A turning point in my ED and when I finally tried to recover was when I realized that altering my body would not give me any more happiness, because I hated myself when I was smaller or bigger. The difference seemed that when I was starving I was also miserable in other ways. This is different for a trans person because I think physically changing their appearance will give them a greater sense of relief. But I think ultimately for both of us the work that must be done is internal to finally accept your appearance
It really is hard, but we all have to commit to that (especially us women). If we actually want to fight rigid beauty standards, we have to stop validating them and trying to conform to them and using those same standards to judge other people and ourselves. We have to love ourselves first, respect our bodies, understand that we are more than our bodies or any conditional/temporary features, and only then can we actually be a part of the change. I relate to what you say though, immensely. I've had body image issues my whole life, and disordered eating for most of my adult life, and it's really hard to both acknowledge the feelings of insecurity and self-doubt, but not give in to them at the same time. Not judge yourself for having those feelings - because we do live in a society where there are expectations and consequences for not meeting those standards, so it's only natural to be preoccupied with image. But also trying to reject those standards in how you see yourself and others. It's hard work, and it's what I'm in therapy for.
@@brennam954 This 10000000%
When Natalie referred to herself as a “he,” I felt such a strange chill. I am a cis female, and was listening to Natalie’s words as if I were her, in an attempt to immerse myself in her experience. When I heard “he,” I was still in an immersive headspace, and felt like it was being referred to me. I can’t describe the discomfort and disconnect I felt towards that word. I am sure that is exactly how a trans woman, and Natalie, felt being referred to as such. I felt irrational anger on her behalf.
@@BigGainer98 what?
You just experienced gender dysphoria. That's how it feels like.
Empathy!
@@aeliascent1174 that... that was the whole point of my comment
@@BigGainer98 Who said I was angry? You're telling me it wouldn't make you uncomfortable being referred to as a "she"? Since I assume only a man would comment something like this.
Omg can this guy be my therapist 🥺 this was fucking so brutal and beautiful. @ContraPoints you are, as always, inspringly brave to do what's essentially a therapy session in real time. To depict a breakthrough like this on camera, wowza. You're the most emotionally honest, reflective, and beautifully transparent person I've seen in life or online. This is amazing!
I cried. I'm not trans but this interview resonated with me on many levels. I'm very hopeful for Natalie as well
I can't thank Dr. K enough for all the content that he makes. This is seriously one of the best free educational content you could get on internet. It is so wholesome and true. Not only his therapy sessions are great, but also his character, which is bright like a thousand suns. I've been in therapy for one year with a therapist and I've never felt what I feel when I'm watching Dr. K. I am so grateful to be able to watch his videos as I continue my healing journey.
This is easily my favorite Natalie Wynn interview Ive seen. I always really resonate with Natalie's perspective on the trans experience and it was really cool hearing her interviewed about that specifically rather than talking at length about incels, fascists, political twitter, and being a TH-camr. Those things are interesting, but I've always been the most interested in her reflections on her own personal experience of being trans. Although my story is very different from hers, I find her perspective on things like self perception and interacting with society in its various forms really relatable.
Ikr, people usually ask her the same questions in every interview.
2:10:23 Note: The habit of "being on the other team" has a tendency of arising as a defense mechanism that says "I will see all my faults before they point them out, because I can deal with them before they point them out. That way, I have more control over the hurt that will come my way. I believe cannot stand their criticism, so I do it myself beforehand so that it is not a cold shower moment". We start this process early in life as a survival mechanism, and perfect it so that we hurt ourselves (or just victimize ourselves) so that we have the illusion of control on the outcome. Too bad that this "armor of pain" isn't useful for "swimming" in life.
This makes a lot of sense to me and that exactly explains what I do.. srry I stumbled upon this video at the right moment and as a transwoman I'm kinda in a breakthrough and finding more insightful wisdom through the comments.. Thank you.
In the end is just playing 4D chess with yourself but any chess player can tell you how mind numbingly tiring can a single match become
I can guess all the horrible things people might say about me until the sun blows up, and come up with apt little zingers to defend myself with but that doesn't erase the fact that I just imagined people telling and thinking horrible stuff about me for hours before even getting out of the house...
Holy crap. Thank you for doing this.
Contra's "Shame" video has helped me through a hell of a lot in dealing with my orientation.
I'm... not finished, not even close, but Natalie's video about coming out has a strong undertone of "Until I accept it myself... There is no way to move forward". She deals with this in a very personal way, a way that I can't mirror, really, but I have taken some parts of it to heart and applied them in my life, going forward.
Dr K's video helps provide further question to the next step. Dealing with how toxic I am towards myself. That was always the problem, for me. The samskara that's built up within me feels like a monstrosity of a hydra that is impossible to defeat - and guilt about that, the very guilt Dr. K describes (the part about people that moved on with their life having regrets of not doing it sooner...), is all-consuming. The whole covid thing hasn't helped, either. But this video is yet another step.
Thank you, Dr. K, for the clarity. And thank you, Natalie, for helping me start the path.
Cut that hydra down one head at a time. Take those shameful and guilty memories and genuinely feel them, being them into your mind in a safe place and let yourself really feel that shame. You gotta process
@@heywhatup9657 I hope I can. Thank you.
I honestly wept through the second part of this interview and oh my god Natalie I really-really want you to be happy, and find peace and closure from all this pain.
I love seeing her not in her performance mode , just chatting and thinking aloud about stuff . A very talented , interesting and good hearted person . Im barely interested in all the online feuding stuff . I just love her contribution to the public , and her bold ridicule of the ignorant people often running our lives from positions of power .
FYI she has a channel called Contrapoints Live where she just plays games like Morrowind, Stardew, and RE and you get a lot more of the unedited Natalie.
@@NiftyPants thank you -
This was super interesting and also super heartwarming as a person in therapy who has questioned inner trauma and identity. I've laughed, I've cried, I've examined my metaphysical reality. Great.
I honestly never knew who she was. I watched a single video from her channel ContraPoints about 2 years ago and it completely changed my mind about a lot of issues that I honestly never agreed upon. Her videos and the arguments she makes is so clear and concise that it amazes me how I never knew of her before.
I cried through so much of this, Natalie is so similar and the points brought up mean the world to me. I'm 27 debating on what I want to do feeling like I'm so late and have the same distaste for myself. I thought I was alone in this and although I feel like I've made some progress I felt stuck.
After this though I feel like I truly have some healthy avenues to explore and discover. Thank you both so much.
towards the end, the Dr asks "Do you have any questions," and she thinks about it and says "What was the question?" I relate SO MUCH to that.
I'm so glad he chose to focus on her self-bullying, because the way she talks about herself in her videos is so upsetting, I can't even imagine how she talks to herself in private. Natalie is easily one of the most beautiful, brilliant people on the planet, but I don't know if she'll ever fully comprehend that.
Unfortunately I think a lot of, if not most trans people really struggle with that battle, just like her. It's hard not to see yourself that way when going through such a difficult, world altering life transition like that. When you know you're different, and you don't fit in, but then figure out WHY you're different, and then you STILL don't fit in? That's tough man.
I struggle with it too. My family and especially friends will tell me similar things as what you said about Natalie. My self esteem and self image make it hard to comprehend the nice things people say about me though, and even though I know my brain is lying with the bad things it says, I still believe it more than them for some reason. It's a very difficult pattern to break out of, and it's one that's also reinforced/affirmed by the very loud transphobic people online
@@rileymachelle4088 Yeah I'm sure it's worse with so many people being desperate to spot a trans person just so they can make them feel like they're not "fooling" anyone. At least with me being... unfortunate-looking, most people don't go out of their way to let me know they think that, but it seems like transphobes, specifically the terminally-online, one foot in the alt-right pipeline transphobes, would sell their souls to make a trans person feel less than.
@@rileymachelle4088whats funny is its not an issue that one singular person ever feels. I think even non queer people feel this way to and regular cis people can feel alien and ousted from everyone. Its super intersectional and even people who are neurodivergent or have a disability or is underrepresented can feel this way.
What im saying is you're not alone if you feel this way. There are people who are the same. Some find each other and create a community and some are okay with not fitting in and flourish in their uniqueness. You will be okay
when u live in a society that rather u be "dead" then i can understand why. As someone who also is nonbinary/agender with austism and adhd dx its no wonder i too talk to myself so harshly as well. tho I'm more accepting of my gender identity its how my neurodivergence caused most of the pain.
In the short time I’ve identified as a trans person, I don’t think I’ve ever felt more valid and understood in my new identity than watching this video. I’m so happy that I’m not alone own experience and relationship towards my gender and society’s view of gender. Thank you. So much.
How old r u? If you're not even 21. Wait with it, trust me.
@@Kalergi_Plan_Accelerationist wait for what lol
@@Rose_Nebula probably wrong comment kek
@@Kalergi_Plan_Accelerationist oh ok ig
1:18:35 "What does that person need."
I'm definitely trying this.
@@Allison_Hart Maybe start with the idea of yourself as a little kid? It's harder to beat up on a little kid, and that age is where a lot of our issues or samskars come from. Then work your way up with older versions of yourself. That has helped me.
@@Allison_Hart My sister recently got a lizard and it's beautiful to hear her talk about him and how adorable he is. I don't know if she saw the connection but she also told me about how bad she felt when she was depressed years earlier and she felt like she didn't take care of her cat well enough. I felt like she wanted to feel more love in her life and didn't know how to do it by just looking at herself. Because I've tried that and that's too hard for me and we're alike in that way. It's hard to look at yourself and see anything to love. The way she's learning and relearning how to do it is by being around what she loves. That's her family and some new activities she thinks could be awesome to succeed in and her cute little lizard.
I like to think of cute little 5 year old me. That kid is easier to love than 26 year old me. But most of the love comes from thinking about others. Like my family and friends.
I have so much respect for the trans people who have to survive every day warring within themselves between needing to pass to be safe in some situations vs. needing to be beautiful and valid and accepted *as* trans and not *in spite of* being trans. I can only imagine how much extra energy it takes to navigate that kind of codeswitching and anxiety, and I just admire you all for surviving in a world that is not as welcoming as it should be. If you need a hug today, here is a virtual hug ❤
She's amazing. And this session was amazing.
Thanks to both of you. This was really insightful. I'm now pretty sure that instead of being non binary, I am actually just a cis girl who is scared to be an adult because I was abused my whole life until I was 17. I'm 18 now and I'm crying because this is a lot to process.
Just reaching out to say it's shit that happened to you, and you didn't deserve it. You deserved so much better. I hope the path ahead is brighter and you find a place of safety and peace.
i hope everything is going well for you
It’s okay, when I was younger too I questioned what I was supposed to be and who I was and this was back in the day when homophobia and transphobia was super common… but regardless I think it’s pretty normal. Teenage years are all about questions and trying different hats on. If it doesn’t fit you then it doesn’t fit you, it’s completely okay. Gender like sexuality comes in many colors!