Cirrus Trim Runaway Fatality
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ก.ย. 2023
- A recreation of the Montgomery Executive Airport Cirrus SR20 crash that claimed the life of the sole occupant, who was apparently a student pilot. The pilot stated to air traffic control (ATC) prior to the crash that he experience trim runaway, but could have mistaken that for Garmin's envelope stability protection (ESP) system.
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I had a trim runaway in a Cirrus in the pattern (relay failure). The AC went to full up trim on downwind @ 100kn and about 20” MP. We were at stall in what felt like a few seconds. It is absolutely possible to overpower the trim and land, which is what I did. Though initially I needed both hands on the stick. I still have the burnt relay sitting on my desk as a reminder. Sympathies to all those impacted.
Thanks for those details. Good info. Sounds like it’s a little more intense than the manual language indicates.
glad youre here to fly another day! nice moves.
Great work. If you’re not a CFI, I hope you become one.
Scary. Sounds like a major fault that needs to be addressed. Is there no easily reached trim cut out?
Pretty sure being able to override the trim system (and autopilot) is a certification requirement.
I met the pilot that was the first person to actually use the life saving parachute in the SR 20 she was a lady in her 70’s flying in south Texas she told me that Cirrus was so thrilled at the outcome and how much the frame of the aircraft was still intact if they could have back that aircraft for obvious reasons that they would give her a brand new one and she said deal.
Wise words, Sir! I was a sales pilot at Diamond Air, former HOAC (Hoffmann Aircraft), between 1992 and 1995. My conclusion: You can fly an aircraft with your brain and you can fly it with your ass. Flying MUST become instinctive. You have to FEEL the plane. Like some crows at a ridge in a stormy day. You MUST train emergency procedures. I did my aerobatic training in the former Czechoslovakia (LKJH). On EVERY training flight the instructor suddenly pulled out power and I had to get the plane (Z142) on a suitable field. In 5m (!) above ground I was allowed to apply power again. On many flights he put the baby in a flat spin and I had to recover it. If you practice this a while it becomes second nature. Here in Austria (and the rest of Europe I guess) nothing of this kind of REAL emergency training. It's a lack of proper (=REALISTIC) training that kills pilots.
I wonder how many CFIs would be comfortable giving a HP endorsement to student pilot. There's a reason C172s and Cherokees are the most common trainers - they are simple, low powered, and docile.
Student pilot in a Cirrus reminds me of the old "Doctor in a Bonanza". Rich guy buys a plane that is way over his head and comes to a bad end. If you want to learn to fly buy a $40k 150 and get really good in it with it's low power and sharp stall. I did and had over 200 hours before I moved up. Eventually flew most of the high performance singles. Also the 300 hours in the old 150 were a blast. I visited almost every field on the LA sectional, plus Phoenix, Vegas, Reno etc, with one radio, a transponder, a compass and a clock.
Bonanza's have been called 'Doctor killers'. But I prefer the opposite: 'Doctors are Bonanza killers'. Bonanza is a good airplane. But, just like a gun, or a knife, or a rock, it can kill you if you try hard enough.
@@richardpark3054 and the reason why we know you’re exactly right is because all of these planes are very old and were flown by very capable pilots for the last 60 years and then all of a sudden wealthy people are able to buy them who aren’t really aircraft enthusiast, but desire to fly occasionally and are extremely part-time flyers, which is recipe for disaster , in the same way when a rich Dr , buys a Ferrari, and he suddenly becomes a self proclaimed or imagined expert driver, and find out he’s not when the traction is overpowered With speed and incapability come even Elon Musk can attest to this
Oh yeah. Another alpha male, macho douche who thinks he’s infallible and immortal. And they just keep repeating the same stupid shit. Hubris kills!
I had a "Trim runaway" in my schools 2019 SR-20 on short final. The aircrafts stall system glitched and was indicating a stall at 95kts descending, I was on an ILS approach and the stall warning horn went off, I disengaged autopilot and kept hand flying the approach, 5 seconds later another stall warning, and this time ESP (electronic stability protection) engaged and though the plane was in a level descent, the system engaged the autopilot and began trying to roll the plane to the right with aileron trim. I remember hitting the disengage button and holding the stick fully left to keep the plane level, the autopilot would disengage and immediately come back on and try to roll the plane erratically. After the second autopilot disengagement I had to hold down the A/P disengage button, full control forces on the stick and do the missed approach, then on climbout go into the system settings and disable ESP. Only after that would the autopilot remain off. The stall warning message went off 3 more times in the pattern as I took the plane around to finally land. It was a godsend I had my instructor there to hold the plane on climb so I could disable the ESP, and that he knew that would work, I was in a frenzy looking for the autopilot breaker and If i had been alone trying to climb out fighting the autopilot while simultaneously looking for the circuit breaker below my knee, who knows what would have happened. These things apparently aren't uncommon in the Cirrus, schools using cirrus need to start training solo students how to handle these events.
Sounds very sketchy. Glad you made it out ok! I agree, solo pilots should have first hand experience with the system before they fly.
@@flyingformoney777 truth. Its my personal opinion that cirrus just arent meant for the training sector. Our school has a fleet of 12 brand new cirrus SR-20's built from 2016-2022 all of which go down for issues every 10-12 hours it seems. Just last week we had one of the 2022 models lose a cylinder on downwind with a stuck valve, another one the prop governor went during a XC. not to mention the issues of regular fleet maintenance with their 50 hour phase inspections. seems we have a few bird strikes every month or so too, and that composite frame isn't easy or cheap to repair unlike an aluminum cessna. ends up with a lot of planes being downed very often and lots of training hours lost and pushed back. our 172's 152's and seminoles never go down as often or as long as the cirrus does, wonderful aircraft for XC flying, doesnt hold up to the abuse of flight training though. Im surprised in all 7 years of operating them our school has had zero caps deployments or fatalities in the cirrus.
funny that a plane supposedly built for safety will kill you quicker with modcons than a good old 182. ha.
Wow, thanks for posting this. I’ve been training in a G6 SR 20 for the past few months. After hearing about this accident, I started familiarizing myself with the breakers and abnormal procedures for runaway AP/ESP and reinforcing the AP checks on the before takeoff checklist where you have to muscle through the side yoke, disengage with the button, and also check the trim hat settings while holding down the AP disengage button to make sure you’ll still have trim pitch control.
It’s not much covered in Cirrus’ training curriculum, and I’ve been reviewing this with my instructor. We need to get the word out to more Cirrus pilots about procedures when encountering this - and knowing where the breakers are.
So learn where the A/P breaker is by muscle memory. I never would have thought about the A/P trying to kill you.
At 17 yrs of age, with about 4 hours of solo experience I also had a trim issue. I was flying a Cherokee 140 and after take off, I realized the trim was full up. I was confused and frightened. The more power, the higher the pitch. I had a knee helping me keep the yoke forward against the never ending pressure. At this point, I struggled to understand which way to turn the trim on the ceiling handle! I was determined to live and I did. Remaining in the pattern, I landed and survived. It was one of the most frightening experiences I had, as a pilot because I was so scared, I could not remember which way to turn the trim (on the ceiling) and I did not want to worsen the situation.
Glad it turned out ok. It’s easy (especially early in training) to get over your head…
Brilliant work again, I really feel for the pilot, must have been terrifying. Thanks again for your work.
Was just discussing the fatal crash in Australia of a Cirrus SR22 4 days ago killing an experienced pilot and his 3 grandchildren in good weather - couldn’t understand how this could have happened in cruise - this video provides a possible explanation
This is so sad. Heartfelt condolences and prayers to the family of that Marine pilot.
Wow...tragic story but excellent, professional video! Great job!
That's the most professional and no-nonsense narration regarding an aircraft incident I've ever heard. You certainly know your stuff- subbed and thank you
Thanks. Welcome to the channel!
This video is garbage. To fault the controller in this is bs. First, she didn't know that the runaway trim was nose up, did she? If could have been a nose down trim problem. Second, the pilot didn't clearly articulate that it was he who was having a problem. 3) He also didn't make any request, like "I am declaring an emergency, and need an immediately landing. Additionally, this is hardly congested airspace, lol. I suspect the make of this video has little experience in anything but GA. Also, a mayday call is rarely used. 99% of emergencies are handled with "XXX is declaring an emergency". I was a military and major airline pilot, and have had encountered or witnessed dozens of emergencies. NEVER has anyone called "Mayday".
You should watch the Air Safety Institute. Richard McSpadden, Rest in Peace, was better than anyone. Ironically, he was killed in a crash on Oct 1 2023
I have information about the owner where we both experienced a similar experience in a different aircraft he owned. We landed back safe as he knew how to disable the system that thought the plane had too high AOA and forced pitch down. It was a faulty sensor that nearly ended our lives and Cirrus just wanted it to go away, hopfully now a real investigation can be launched.
I actually see he has sold his aircraft fleet now so probably in relation to this. I really feel for the family as this shouldnt have happened. Many people knew about this issue and training was established to mitigate runaway trim but it was an MCAS style faliure that grounded the 737-M8 and when it fails the hope of recovery is very slim :(
The faa isnt interested in costing big aviation companies money and routinely ignores ntsb reccomendations so they dont have to
mechanical trim
The Cirrus should have a trim wheel... it's ridiculous that it doesn't. Flying the pilatus for a couple years it always drove me crazy to not have a Trim wheel, Far preferred my time in the King Air and Caravan. Parachute or no a GA airplane should always have a way to disconnect electric trim and use manual trim input. "Mild control forces" are often around 50 pounds, that's a lot to hold for an extended period of time, I'd be very curious to know if this was the ESP or not.
I think most of these Cirrus owners want to try and save their plane instead of pulling the CAPS. It would have worked in this situation.
Runaway trim is something you can save the plane from. Reliance on the CAPS prevents them from knowing HOW to save their plane.
or just… pull the circuit breaker
Been too long. Glad to hear from this channel again.
My friend Sandy was a test pilot for the Air Force, he had a trim issue in his F-84, the trim switch was inadvertently installed in the reverse position. He wrote it up and they repaired it.
In some airplanes like the Beech 99 and the MD-80, the trim doesn't just run the elevator, it runs the entire horizontal stabilizer and if it goes full north or south you don't have enough elevator to counter it. When I trained people in the Beech 99, runaway trim was trained and a part of every checkride.
no, trim is only for the side of your house.
I was an avionics tech in General Aviation in the 1970s and early '80s, and was the repair station's Chief Inspector for the last 14 years. Our GADO Inspector explained to me that he looked over autopilot installations for elevator trim safety because the normal control servos would not put a plane into the ground, but runaway trim will.
It's the same for the 737
Most commercial aircraft have stab trim!
@@hugostiglitz6914All airplanes have stab trim. On many / most airplanes it is a small tab that aerodynamicly pushes the elevator up or down for trim. But some airplanes have no tab on the elevator, they instead move the entire horizontal stabilizer to set the neutral pitch.
I had runaway trim June of last year in a 172 in the LA area en route to Catalina just as I was going through the Bravo with autopilot. Ever after disconnecting, the manual wheel was not working right (it showed the line at full nose down and was not easy to move) and the plane was trimmed for about 120. I fought with it to get through the Bravo and started getting things ok. I circled over the water a bit to trouble shoot, but knew I couldn't land at Catalina like that. I wasn't sure if forcing the wheel was a good idea because if the tab really broke, I'd be in a bad shape.I never declared an emergency either (it was probably a Pan Pan in hindsight), but let ATC know what was happening. They routed me back direct to the valley through the Bravo. It was OKish in cruise, requiring some backpressure, but landing was a challenge. It took 8 attempts to land (wound up landing no flaps) because as I was getting slower, it wanted to pitch down and I didn't want to jam the nose gear. I was really tired from having to do all the backpressure at pattern speed and the final finesse of a landing was hard to do. Haven't flow since. The narrator from the channel isn't kidding about the task saturation and combined with the fatiguing pressure on the yoke to counter it, its a challenge.
And now you know. Things go sour sometimes, and it's always OK to declare an emergency. I've done it myself after a failed gear extension landing at a class B. I asked for a climb and vectors to a safe place to diagnose, and ATC kept the area clear while I was heads down turning a crank. Tower then gave special instructions to help with a visual inspection on a flyby, and had the trucks rolling in case the gear collapsed. I had a safe landing with no damage, and it wound up being fine in the end. It was wonderful to have the support ready, and nobody was upset or angry afterward.
The worst thing to do is pretend everything is fine and try to be a superhero. Use all the resources in the cabin and on the ground.
It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders, and now you have the experience knowing what can happen and how to deal with it. Get with an instructor and get back out there flying again!
Oh man. It sucks he tried to get help. It's important to remember ATC is basically oblivious to the severity of your circumstances. Unless you say engine failure they won't understand it's an emergency situation without a mayday call. I have heard people essentially reveal they are unintended IFR (which is a serious emergency for any pilot flying VFR) and ATC just assigns altitude or a vector like normal. Remember they are not pilots (usually) and have many other aircraft to worry about. If you think you MIGHT lose control of the aircraft keep saying mayday in each transmission until you are acknowledged and tell ATC what you are going to do and do it.
It's not their job to tell pilots how to fly. Imagine the liability suits! It's just their job to tell you where and keep you from hitting things.
@@charlesfaure1189it is their job to manage airspace and where each aircraft is in that airspace…
Most important first to maintain control of the aircraft, to keep flying. Secondly to fly in the right direction, ie to navigate. And only when those are under control to talk to ATC. They can't help you fly the plane.
@@charlesfaure1189 yeah bud op said that so what's your point
Nice message in the end of the video. Excellent work you've done. Condolences to the family.
I once took off in an SR22 with the autopilot engaged and it was definitely a few tense seconds trying to figure out why the aircraft was fighting me so hard on takeoff. As a student pilot I would have probably lost it...
Follow without fail, without deviation your check list every procedure regardless of your experience.
Shouldn't the avionics disallow AP activation while on the ground?
@@fluke196cThey don't usually. But part of a lot of run ups required to activate the AP and then move the yoke to check that it disengages properly.
@@devintariel3769 good point
You have to wonder though why was a student pilot, seemingly practicing takeoffs and landings, even using the auto pilot to begin with? Probably should have been hand flying it the whole time.
The trim is a spring cartridge in a Cirrus. You can pull the breaker, but unlike my old Cessna 337, you can’t manually retrim with a manual wheel, (kinda good with a 10 foot wide elevator on the 337). I always thought this was a bad cirrus design flaw. That and no nose gear steering, which I considered just cheap.
I had a trim runaway twice, both in King Air 200's.
One in cruise at FL270, the other on an ILS.
Obviously survived. I did mark all trim cb's in red after the first one. Didn't help on the ILS becuase I was too close to the ground. Had to overpower it.
great video. the content you create is fantastic!
I am a retired airline Captain, age 66, started flying at age 15, CFI at age 18...B747, DC-10, B727 CA. and then G2, 3, 4, 5, 550...instructor. I never had one CLOSE CALL...NEVER...nothing NADA....bought a brand new Cirrus SR-22 in 2005. Took the factory training and proceeded to NEARLY KILL MYSELF....kept that airplane 7 years and put 75 hours on it...THERE.. do the math.
I'm just wondering why you kept it so long to never fly it?
Wow!What a story!
I’ve heard quite a few pilots say “You’re basically trashing the plane when you deploy the chute.” So it seems common to avoid the deployment in a Cirrus just to save money. Crazy mindset to value money over your life. Not saying that’s what happened here, he may have panicked and thought he was too low to deploy.
If you’ve heard the audio from this crash, he’s full on panicked. He can barely make coherent radio calls to the tower. I’m thinking pulling the chute never crossed his mind.
The red flag that hit me in the first 3 minutes of this video was that this airport was way too busy for a low time pilot to be doing pattern work in a hi-performance aircraft. Heck, even with 1000+ hours in my current airplane, I do not attempt pattern work in busy airspace. There are plenty of low traffic airports within 100 miles of this airport that the pilot could have flown to to get his practice landings in, and he would not have had the distractions of multiple aircraft in the pattern and a busy controller who was clearly handling more traffic than she was able to manage.
EVERY fatal crash is the result of multiple small errors stacking up. Limit the number of uncontrollable factors when you are flying and you reduce the number of holes in the stack of Swiss cheese slices. Reduce your cockpit workload. Then if the airplane malfunctions, you are more likely to be able to figure out a good solution.
Pilot had no business in the aircraft without an instructor, much less in that pattern.
How did you conclude "…controller who was clearly handling more traffic than she was able to manage?"
@@petep.2092 a judgment based on many hours of flying in busy airspace and working with ATC. A controller may get overwhelmed with workload in busy airspace, just as a pilot can. It may only be for a minute or two, even less, but that’s one of the ways holes are created in that slice of the Swiss cheese.
@@JamesWilliams-en3os She was very busy, but I didn't find anything in the video that indicated that the controller was in over her head.
@@petep.2092 thanks, I rewatched the video and I take your point. I will edit my original comment accordingly. 👍
Been reviewing this accident with some Cirrus instructors. Is it possible the student pilot got confused, gripped the yoke, and held down the comm button on the front (hence the “stuck mic” call from ATC) - thinking he was disengaging the red AP button on top of the yoke?
Or was this an actual AP or ESP failure?
The SR20 Before Takeoff checklist requires engaging the AP on the ground, muscling through the controls (which DOES require some force/effort but its doable), and then disconnecting the AP to ensure no control issues in flight. However, there’s no mention of checking ESP and you have to dig through the MFD panel System Setup to disengage ESP before practicing stalls, slow flight, steep turns etc in flight.
RIP to the pilot.
I think relentlessly drilling the position of the a/p breaker (as well as the function and position of the others) should be mandatory prior to solo. The panel in the 20 is tucked below your right knee and the last thing you want to be doing while fighting 20 or so lbs of pitch up is putting your head between your legs to read the panel and pull a breaker.
Or at least some sort of touch cue on the essential breakers in aircraft where you can’t be reasonably expected to visually see the panel during an emergency.
Amazing detailed analysis, nice work
"A few things about stall speed...". It shouldn't exist in the aviation dictionary. The critical angle of attack should be the first term to be understood and used when talking about stalls only, cause that's the ONLY factor creating a stall, while the minimum 1G critical AoA speed should be another term. "Stall speed" makes the pilot think that if he flies faster he'll get out of stall. VERY WRONG and most fall for that misunderstanding! You only get out of a stall by reducing the AoA well below the stall in order to re-attach the primary airflow. That's physics! For the case of a false stall warning (like the 737-MAX proved king of it) you as a pilot should be able to depict it and beware of what is actually going on (only done through training experience) and take the correct measures. If the pitch control forces are too high, lower the airspeed to easier overcome the battle with the trim forces.
Sadly, too few flight students (and not many Flight Instructors did read throughly "The Bible" of flight: "Stick and Rudder"... an old but ethernal book on flight. Therefore, it is not rare to hear that absurd term of "Stall speed" hammered on oversimplifying prone people, that will never understand the Stall...
@@alfredomarquez9777
Perfectly said my friend. But you, I and a the lowest percentage of pilots truly understand the physics of flight. The rest have obtained their licenses... we all know how...!
This is the one big gripe I have with the Cirrus...it's the only GA plane I've ever flown that didn't have a manual trim wheel. Even on planes where I had automatic trim, I could disconnect it and use the trim wheel. Why Cirrus doesn't provide this basic feature - on a plane that's supposedly designed to be extremely safe - truly baffles me.
i like your flat and factual narration style. good editing to. only thing i would add is if you could periodically pause the audio and just translate the radio jibber for some of us who cant understand the rapid fire lingo. so we are all on the same page. helps us beginners to.
There are certain things all pilots must commit to memory. The moment you have an electric trim, ESP or autopilot you must know how to strangle them. I also suspect that insufficient training is given to pilots on how to deal with them when they malfunction.
This. As a CPL student with only a few hours over 100, barely any time has been spent on dealing with overriding automated systems that could malfunction and introduce unexpected attitudes and behaviors.
you called it what it is sir. truth
True - know where the breakers are by touch
Absolutely, this is also where I feel the 737 situation was blown incredibly out of proportion. Mostly the media treating them all like death traps that no pilot can save if it happens. While I agree it needed to be fixed, it wasn't as severe as the media portrayed to the public. It was no different than a runaway stabilizer in behavior and remedy. There's a reason all the torpedo events were from 3rd world like airlines. While it was a different way to get to a runaway stabilizer, it's behavior and recovery were really no different. Flip the switches and you're good to go. I think it was the first one that had fatalities, it glitched and the pilot disconnected the auto trim. He continued on and landed at the destination. The very next pilot after "repairs" encountered the same problem and they did not make it. The first clearly knew what to do with a runaway and the other very much did not. It's truly sad...just 3 seconds to flip a couple of switches is all that had to happen. I was more amazed that any airliner whatsoever even had a single pilot who didn't know how to immediately disengage the stabilizer. Let alone multiple pilots. Runaways happen all the time and should be almost treated as it WILL happen at least once in a pilot's career. It is one of the few things that is incredibly easy to remedy but has huge costs if not done.
@@supra1jzed I have said many times, I would not fly out of certain countries unless I knew the pilot was NOT from that country. Pilots need more than hours at the stick. Training in adverse events, and how to be quick on your feet when events happen.
Following this accident I´ve started to have new Cirrus pilots land with the trim in the full forward and full aft position. While it´s not particularly comfortable, it is absolutely manageable for a reasonably strong guy being prepared for it. For a 120lbs girl not so much, CAPS might be a better option for them, at sufficient altitude. The control forces involved seem to be higher than 20lbs, but even if they were the mentioned 20lbs....try to hold a bucket for a few minutes, it´ll be HEAVY!
Reminds me of the 737 Max - an airplane programmed to crash. Sure if you are trained to overcome it, and remember the proper steps to overcome the fatal programming, you can get out of it, so they can claim "pilot error", but with a student pilot? Seems like a student pilot should have a simple aircraft with basic controls.
Excellent video, educational ++, and so well narrated. Great stuff. Keep it up!
I am a private pilot licensed in October 1968. I learned in a Piper Cherokee 180 at Queen City Airport in Allentown PA I rented a Piper Cherokee 180 from Gail Montgomery the Manager at a Quakertown PA airport. On climb out I used the trim switch, but it kept going after I released the switch. I knew hit the circuit breaker on the lower area of the panel and the trim motor stopped. I wonder today if I had not hit that breaker could I have over powered the elevator control. When I returned the plane, I told Gail what the plane did. He said oh yeah that plane can do that. Later Gail and his wife flew to Penn State in North West PA and crashed. His wife was an aviation weather specialist.
Great video, I can tell you spent a LOT of time with this… 👍
Thanks. I did…
I can't help but think that these aircraft should be considered as advanced over basic trainers. The wealth of information depicted on the panels, the multiple options offered can be a distraction and lead to saturation at times of high stress. I would recommend that irrespective of a pilot's financial situation for the first 200 hrs they stick to the basics.. I've no idea how many hours this unfortunate pilot had in his logbook but I do know that a half-million dollar airplane can invent far more situations to grab a pilot's attention than one costing 50 or $70,000.
I agree with your response. As an older pilot myself, the best basic trainer ever built after the Piper Cub was the Cessna 172. I don't care that the Air Force academy bought these Cirrus aircraft. These aircraft are a fiberglass, carbon, epoxy resin, and foam core piece of side stick junk. Keep it simple and teach the stick and rudder basics for primary flight students. After initial training, then go with a Beechcraft A 36. Bonanza for complex aircraft training.
@@geea8509 I think that his social media posts of himself with luxury cars and real estate explain why he was training in a Cirrus instead of a 172 like the rest of us.
Things happen fast in a fast airplane, faster in a complicated fast airplane. The Cirrus is an excellent machine in the hands of a good pilot, but no good at all for a bad one.
@lindaschad9734 Exactly. I'm to good for that 172.
@@lindaschad9734 So more money than brains? Seems about right. Numerous wealthy people die in craft small enough for their wallet, but too big for their brains.....
"A lot of people are surprised how often the pilot forgets to deploy the chute"... Only Cirrus drivers would forget to deploy the chute..
No matter how much time in the logbook, many people will still never grasp or understand aerodynamics or flight characteristics. It's finesse, and much so an understanding of physics.
This was in my area. Love your work. Thank you
It's always a good day when you post. These videos are very educational and incredibly well made! Thanks for all you do for the aviation community!
Thanks!
Prayers to the pilot (A Marine), his family and everyone who knew him. This is just a heartbreaking story.
If your airplane is equipped with an autopilot or electric trim, know at least two methods to disable it. Knowing that you can pull the circuit breaker is not enough. Find the specific breaker and practice enough so that you can reach and pull it with minimal delay should your trim run away.
If you have an autopilot with pitch control, the unit will use the trim tab to relieve air loads just as you would. A modern autopilot should have at least three disconnects-the on-off switch, the circuit breaker, and a disconnect on the yoke.
Add the avionics master switch as the fourth disconnect.
I tilt at this windmill often.
The FAR/AIM does NOT recognized the phrase, “emergency”. Instead, it recognizes the phrases, each repeated 3x: “MAYDAY” or “PAN-PAN”. While there is several comms issues here the biggest seems to be the pilot’s inability to fly his airplane through the issue.
I had just finished a flight with a student and was walking inside my FBO at Midport just south of 28L when I heard this crash happen. A whir of an engine and a loud 'pop'. The locked gate Mr. Pickett must have been referring to was probably the north side of the field. I was by the south side near the ambulance, which couldn't get in because of the electronic keypad locks. Even after we got the ambulance in there wasn't anyone to lead/authorize them to the site. I pointed in the direction of the site for EMS and they just went. Probably lost 2 to 3 minutes in that delay. Definitely room for improvement there. I can attest to the quality of flight training at Coast Flight as a prior student, but only the investigation, facts, and the truth can provide a proper testimonial as to training being a factor. Ever since this accident, I made it a point to train students in various ways of getting out of ESP/autopilot scenarios. Anyway, thank you for posting this. Thoughts and prayers to Mr Green's family.
After seeing AP as a possible instigator, I (as a student) the next day I made sure to practice pulling the AP breaker/servos in my trainer by feel. CFI looked at me funny, until I explained. He said, "I need to add that one to the list."
Thanks for the background. There was something I was curious about as I researched this. I understand that the ESP system can be menu selected off for maneuvers training. Is it common to have it on for stall training, or would it generally be selected off? I’m just wondering-if ESP was triggered here due to stall warning activation-if he had ever recovered from a training stall with the ESP “stick pusher” functioning?
@@flyingformoney777 It is uncommon to have it on for maneuvers or stall training. I have never flown the SR-20 configured with G1000, but I have flown the 2021 C-172S models with this system integrated into G1000. My company's general practice was to teach students to disable ESP at some point after the engine starts to the before takeoff checks. This was done by going to the MFD system status page> setup 2> and disabling ESP. However, people would forget, so often during stage 1 checks for student pilots, knowing it was still active, I would have them perform a stall, the autopilot would take over, and they would either fight the autopilot or disable the ESP, pull the CB, or press the yoke AP disconnect button. When they fought the ESP/AP system to try and do the stall again, the student would pull aft yoke, so the AP would try to trim the nose down. If they gave up aft yoke pressure, the nose would come down pretty hard, depending on how long they fought it for and built up nose-down trim. It's a lot of nose-down trim for the AP to then correct with the servo. Mr. Green could have also exceeded the ESP bank limits during the turn to the right as well, causing it to activate on both axis. So it's not so much a stick pusher as much as it is the yoke being moved by aerodynamic forces on the balance tab. Automation is generally not part of a lot of training for people still mastering the basics. However, On the G1000, there are 5 ways to disable it. It would be a shame to find out he wasn't trained and aware of at least 1.
@@cfidad7005 thanks for the details. Good insight. All the big turbines I’ve ever flown have multiple levels of intervention possible for an upset. We train on every single one of them in order to (hopefully) be able to rapidly identify what is happening in the event of activation. Of course, at the transport category level, we are starting off with pilots who (typically) have already mastered basic airmanship. I can understand how difficult integrating advanced avionics can be for ab initio…
You sir are a very skilled 'orator' who appears to really know your stuff. You touch on a lot of things that even if a refresher are top notch.. Sub'd!
Thanks! Welcome to the channel!
this is all over the place
I've had 2 engine failures over the years. 1st rule in any emergency, fly the airplane. Don't listen to ATC, Don't look around the cockpit, or even for a place to land. Fly the airplane first and don't move on to the next step until you are flying the airplane.
Aviate, navigate, communicate - there is no landing in here... Looks like he should fly higher to give himself time to figure things out how to stabilize the plane.
Imagine dying just doing touch&goes on a beautiful sunny day. How friggin sad. RIP.
Hoping his family find peace. Never easy losing a family member.
I have hundreds of hours flying the cirrus SR 22. The type of aircraft I have the most experience with is a G6 with the Garmin perspective Avionics package. This aircraft honestly is not for low time pilots. There is an extensive training program which Cirrus recommends and provides. It’s a great aircraft and highly capable, especially with a TKS anti-Icing system. I highly recommend all Cirrus pilots to get the most training possible. Yes, pushing and holding the red cut out button on the yoke cancels, all aircraft automated inputs in these Garmin integrated systems.
Thanks for the details👍🏻
Training. Training. And more training. You can never have too much good training.
I was taught that the lowest altitude for Cirrus chute deployment is 500 AGL.
Gotta admit, I’d be much more reluctant to pull the lever than the Cirrus salesmen
advise.
Dead-stick in a mountain pass with no straight roads or frozen lakes available- check
Upside-down or spinning in the clouds with sub-1,000’ bases- check
Over a big city with no freeway or river to ditch in- check.
In this case, as an armchair quarterback in front of the fireplace, before pulling the rip cord,
I’d have disconnected the AP, pulled the AP and/or trim breaker, reduced power, looked out
the windows at the flaps to see if they were uneven, and ailerons to see if one broke or looked
strange, given the tower my tail number and said that I was at xx feet on base (or wherever)
and was unable to climb, so as PIC, I’m turning final…….
FWIW, I have had 2 similar occurrences. One was when I lifted the flaps on a Just SuperSTOL
and it immediately rolled hard to the left. I pulled full flaps back to full and leveled the wings
with the stick. The owner of the plane said, “yea, sometimes that one on the right does get
sticky when you try to retract flaps”😳
The other time was when I took off with full up-trim in my 235 HP Maule. (I’d been warned by
Rick Geiger at Montana Air to never do that, especially with my injured shoulder.)
The nose shot way too high and I couldn’t push it down, so I pulled power back at about 20’
above the runway, then spun the trim wheel like crazy and added power back gently to get
her climbing again.
a pilot above you says your last point is false from personal experience
The aerodynamic forces and moments vary with the square of the airspeed. So, that "easy" overcome may be easy only below X airspeed. Being at high speed you won't overrun it that easily!
Hi . Great channel and topic commentary. Great vocabulary. Keep it up, great verbal skills.
It's not the controller's job to fly the airplane for the pilot. It's not her job to diagnose his problem. It's not her job to manage his workload. It's not her job to properly communicate an emergency in progress. It's not her job to choose for him a less complex and more forgiving flying machine. Those are all the pilot's job, and can NEVER be pushed off onto any controller. If a pilot is unready to deal with an emergency he has no business flying without a CFI. If private pilots consistently educated themselves on known possibilities like this, or continued training beyond the minimum requirements for certificates, fewer of them would end up like this. The secondary cause of this tragedy is a pilot who was not competent in his airplane--not because his elevator trim got him, but for failing in basic emergency procedures and failing to do Job One--fly the airplane.
I was supposed to fly that plane not too long before but opted to Fly their newer SR20 instead. Something didn’t feel right about it energetically and I think because it was older too. I ended up buying my own airplane that was a 2019 so there was less likely for malfunctions I feel like. I was also a business owner getting my license and married with a kid just like this guy. This could have been me. Really sad day for this family.
Yes, very sad. I’ve been there too. Change of circumstance and it could have been me.
Honestly, this is what can happen when you fly a plane without doing a deep-dive into the technical aspects. You can't know what you can't know. The more you understand the underlying system the more options you know even exist.
this wasn't trim run-away issue. the pilot was fighting the ESP inputs--he screwed up. He had a history of exaggerating about his Job and education history, financial basis, etc. just a few months prior to this he was on a podcast and said he was a "transport-Rated Pilot (but still working on his PVT. All the lies caught up with him.
I was a flight instructor for 16 years, i asked a fellow instructor who buys them airplanes? He said rich people that don't know how too fly 😅
The fact that the student pilot zeroed in on trim runaway makes me wonder if he was manipulating the trim incorrectly himself. It is possible he got confused with the direction of control. This might cause him to run trim back and forth rapidly without waiting for the elevator to make recognizable directional control. This could explain the rapid porpoising seen in videos. Sad loss of a fellow Marine. May he rest in peace.
I didn't watch all of this video, but in another one about the same accident, there was mention of a stuck mic. I wonder if he had the buttons mixed up in his panic.
The Mooney has 2 trim electric switches on the yoke and the electric trim only work when both switch are pressed to prevent exactly this kind of trim run away accident. I thought this is standard when you introduce the electric trim feature. If the Cirrus does not have such redundancy and requires one to find the circuit breaker and pull it, then it is a serious design flaw.
My Mooney had trim runaway with the previous owner. He informed me about it casually and instructed me to “just touch the button again and it will stop running away”. Needless to say first thing that happened I replaced the button. On a Mooney you need to trim a lot… Also, Mooneys have not only the AP-disconnect button on the yoke, the switch on the AP to turn the AP off and the Circuit breaker, there is also a dedicated way to see and reach “electric trim” switch on the panel. So in the worst case scenario there are quite a few possibilities to save the day. I forgot to mention the “control wheel steering” button on the yoke where you also can stop all AP servos from action as long as you depress it. And then, there is also the manual trim wheel between the seats. No parachute though. But then, a Mooney can recover from a spin. After all, though, training is everything. And a very smart person once said: “In an emergency situation you never raise above yourself becoming a superhero but you fall down to the minimum level of drilled training.
There's a common misconception these days that anyone can become a pilot, and maybe most can, but few are suited to remain calm and properly manage a crisis.
I agree, although I'd go a bit further and say most can't. In addition to the personal characteristics that you mentioned, being a good pilot requires an innate spacial awareness, mental agility and logic. No amount of training can create those traits in a brain that doesn't have them. Whether the people who fight for "equality" like it or not, those traits are mostly genetic.
The very first Flying Magazine "Aftermath "I read (about 1975) described runaway trim in a Centurion departing IMC. That plane crashed with sudden downward pitch, unrecognized and uncontrolled. That vignette got my attention and I have routinely read "Aftermath" since. When I fulfilled my childhood dream of owning an aircraft (n1599z, a55-95 Baron) I promptly and permanently disabled the electric trim and have always used only mechanical trim.
I still support completely separate nav and control systems though I reluctantly subscribe to autopilot use -particularly single pilot and IMC. Still, my control freakishness will obviate this "runaway trim" problem forever provided the airplane can be trimmed mechanically. It's one less thing...
I really enjoy your videos, but I'll add a couple clarifications here. The controller didn't ignore his emergency declaration. As you briefly mentioned, his transmissions were incomplete and covered by other messages. ATC don't know aircraft systems so it requires the pilot to explain clearly their problem and desires as soon as practical. We cannot provide support if we don't understand the problem. Speak in plain English, but first fly the airplane. Also, the controller didn't instruct the pilot to add power and climb. The controller instructed him to go around to the right. The onus is on the pilot to execute a controlled go around, and climb back to the pattern when practical. Again, control the airplane; a go around doesn't mean pull straight up immediately. I wouldn't say a go around instruction is loading up a pilot with tasks. Keep in mind, what you hear might not be what the other station hears on the radio. Depending on when the radio is keyed, other transmissions may block the message - some may hear that message, others may not. The pilot wasn't vectored in the pattern too closely. Sometimes the speeds of aircraft on the ground or in flight make it impractical to retain proper runway spacing so the controller issues the go around.
Saying that the seperation was insufficient isn’t the same as saying the controller was to blame for it, but I understand your point. To be fair, in every instance, a go around involves adding power and climbing. But - and I may have been a little “dramatically opaque” about this - the controller wasn’t to blame. Still, the congested communications and go around probably worked against the pilot. Those are situational elements, not the result of human error…
Avate, communicate, navigate.
Larry, It's usually avate, navigate and then communicate. Very good video. @@larryblanks6765
@@larryblanks6765 Aviate, navigate, communicate.
@@flyingformoney777 You left out the "the controller wasn't to blame" part in your video. And you clearly did blame her, both overtly and by implication. "She loaded him up" is a blaming statement. You can't slink away from it now.
Thank you for not calling him an "ex-Marine." The only ex-Marines are former Marines who were less than honorably discharged.
I am having to re-asses. I have now seen numerous adverse events, not just aircraft but all kinds of situations, where the 'former Marine', failed miserably.
The word Marine, absolutely evokes a certain Top Shelf feeling in me, and as a Canadian, we don't even have Marines. They definitely command a certain level of respect for me, yet I am seeing instances that betray the thought.
The 'formerMarine, in this instance did NOT act all that 'Marine' in my view. He left the military and somehow amassed some wealth (Based on pics of flashy cars) bought an aircraft way over his abilities, did not train adequately and crashed and burned.
Very unfortunate of course, but not very 'Marine' like.
I heard her say he also had a stuck mic when he was complaining about the trim control. There is close tolerance in the yolk where both switches are located. I would like to see the maintenance records to see if someone had recently worked in that area.
Boy that flight simulator scenery almost looks real in some of those scenes! Very cool 👍
In my general aviation commercial flying I never used electric trim blw 2000' AGL, just the hand wheel. In any case locating the c/breaker by feel was a prestart checklist item. This guy was not equipped to be sent solo.
Correct. Many, many GA crashes are the result of a pilot who had no business in the airplane without a CFI.
Chrebet looks like uncle Leo from Seinfeld with the eyebrows, hahahahaha
Get well soon!
Great commentary... kept me listening to the end.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Love my 172M, no electric trim, no chance of runaway trim.
I was thinking what differentiates the Garmin SEP from a flight by wire system essentially it does the same. Maybe the controls aren’t processed by a computer and the garmin unit just detects the stall and activates the servos
I can tell you one thing there would not be a situation where I flew in a plane with an auto pilot and didn’t know exactly where the disengage breaker was, and had practice many times, finding it blindly as by muscle memory. I wonder why this is not taught since So many pilots are experiencing auto pilot failure?
With enough horizontal speed, the parachute will self inflate before losing much altitude. I trained in the cirrus, and depending on wind, takeoff would take us over the city. If there was an engine fail on takeoff, you bet I'm pulling the handle even at 200 feet. Good plane, scary plane with lots of speed and power. I still prefer the 152.
Lets see, that never happened to my 1940 Taylor Craft, or C-150, not even to my Varieze or my Avid Flyer.
"it's only good if you insufferably drill yourself to use it" yup. true for so many things in life. as a skydiver, extra true.
42P just made me a lot less intimidated to talk to tower
When building an experimental you should never build the trim tab power to be so much you can't override it.
it wasn't a trim runaway. Investigators say it was the Cirrus Electronic Stability Protection System (ESP) working normally. The student got dangerously slow in the pattern and the angle of attack (AOA) became critically high. The ESP automatically pushed the nose down to lower the AOA but the student tried to fight it by pulling the nose up. This stalled the Cirrus and killed the student. Unfortunately the student didn't understand the ESP system. Knowledge = Safety.
Unless I missed it or it just came out, I don’t think that the NTSB has made a finding yet. I personally think it’s associated with ESP, but the ADB-B data depicts the aircraft accelerating significantly after it slowed to 77-knots on base (it was doing 135-knots on short final). If he had a stall event on base, he responded appropriately to it, but maybe got confused and panicked. Hopefully the NTSB final report will shed some light…
Where did you get this information? Not off the ntsb site.
When the ESP activates in that manner, is there an aural or other alert to the pilot...?
First Hero for Transcendia Jim Monaghan was killed when he was qualifying in a Convair 440 which is the turboprop and the type zenith of the line starting with the Convair 240. Retired from the airlines the pressurization is taken out and their world is 12 above AGL No, it would be 12 MSL since the limit is only for the pilots who need that much air density or they need oxygen tanks and masks. Jim was killed in a flight that lasted 40 seconds. The cause was up for down and down for up. The plane had been incorrectly rigged by its mechanics. Another pilot told me the cross rigging had happened to him in the Baron. It troubled him little at the time because he had altitude to just practice some with the incorrect rigging.
Do all planes have similar electrical ocpd’s where you pull them out to open switch and push in to close? Reminds me of pushmatic panels
I own and fly a 2021 cirrus SR22 G6. I don’t understand how this happened as the cirrus doesn’t have normal trim like a Cherokee 6 does as far as separate trim tabs. The hat switch just moves the ailerons and elevator. I’ve overpowered my autopilot many times. I’m perplexed as how he didn’t work this out.
I flew the 20 quite a bit. Could the hat itself get stuck and fail to return to center?
I'm confused? The trim adjustment doesn't move a trim tab on the elevator? I understand the autopilot may not move a trim tab but I would think the trim would. Don't most autopilots also use the trim for elevator control?
@@crissd8283 Yes, most do, but some aircraft use adjustable spring cartridges that apply pressure to the aileron/elevator cable/rod directly. The Cirrus are such aircraft.
@crissd8283 cirrus does not use adjustable trim tabs. The use spring loaded cartridges on the elevator and aileron. The G1 cirrus had an electric rudder trim tab but that went away quick. The trim cartridges are not difficult to override at all
@@jasonchipkin anything is possible but all he would have had to do is pull the breaker by his right leg.
Your tone suggests the controller is responsible for the pilots inexperience and mistakes.
I think the congested airspace and her blasé initial reaction didn’t help, but I don’t think she is to blame. Let’s just say that I hope she and the controllers around her learned a little something from it. Just like I hope pilots do as well.
@@flyingformoney777 Still you blame while pretending not to. Blase'? She and controllers should learn something? Those are blaming statements. Who raised you?
What, exactly, is the difference between blame and learning from failure? But I suppose you know more about what I meant than I do, which is a more difficult sort of blame…
What flight sim is this and are these the standard scenary packages or an add-on? At times it looked like real life, very nice.
That's a brilliantly put together video. No Fat... Just Fact.
Really impressed with that... unfortunately the subject matter was tragic and that is not forgotten.
Great job presenting those circumstances to us.
Excellent use of Flight Simulator to keep us visually engaged.
Cheers s.
Thank you. Much appreciated
I watched this event on another channel and I find this particular ATC very annoying. I'm not a pilot or a controller and I get that every industry has their language, but good communication is a paramount human performance tool in every industrial operation. Her words are almost unintelligible to my ears. Irritating the way she says "28L".
I wonder how much ego prevents pilots from activating the chute?
Little feller airbus type aircraft with the HAL 9000 in control .
So what should he have done besides pull chute? Max the throttle?
"belies", good word.
This won’t be the last rich guy fatality. Money does not buy experience, only time does.. I feel like the more money you make and the more you flaunt your wealth the quicker you die..
Let's be honest, everyone who owns a plane is doing okay. The money itself isn't the problem. But just like JFK Jr., the overconfidence and the lack of experience sure kills.
@@DavidDavid-jb1cy True in a way. But when you have Cessna time and money burning a hole in your pocket just like JFK Jr. You cannot help yourself but to upgrade into the Complex market of aircraft, and that brings trouble. Without the money you don’t have the option to go Bonanza, Mooney, Cirrus or Single Engine Turboprop. Your stuck flying the 172 or 182 you can afford to rent from time to time.
I guess the best way to fly Cirrus will be to pop the autopilot breaker when entering the cabin. Especially when training touch-and-go's
I can't hear a word ATC says on the radio. Yet the pilots manage to repeat the instructions somehow. This communications method surely adds immensely to the cognitive workload?
Sadly most students are not flying airplanes anymore. They are passengers reacting to the plane rather than flying it. If you learned in a cub, when you got to a cirrus you’d never have this happen. Sadly they made the Cherokee and 172 too easy to fly and now we have all these reactionary pilots. My first plane didn’t even have trim. (Experimental) None whatsoever.
What graphics card are you using. It's beautiful.
Also if the elevator was stuck or not enough pitch control to climb with it.
Once at higher speed a small amount of flaps would cause the plane to start ballooning and climb upto to a safe CAPS altitude and deploy it.
(easy to think about in Hindsight tho)
There's a lot to be said to building up your flight hours in an analogue Cessna 150 like I did many years ago. Low pilot workload and the trim goes where YOU put it. I fear for my low hour nephew, my half-brother (his father) recently gave him the money to buy a factory new DA40 with all the bells and whistles. Fortunately the DA40 has an excellent safety record and the lowest fatal accident per 100,000 hrs. of any GA aircraft.