Elaphe Hub Motors considered using transverse flux and axial flux motors
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 ม.ค. 2022
- Transverse Flux Motor
• Transverse Flux Motor ...
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Thank you for going into deeper detail with this, I did notice alot of people asking that question.
Once again, thank you for finding the definitive answers for us.
Thanks for the follow up research. Excellent!
Very informative, thanks! I think you got to the real issue with hub motors and that is maintaining the air gap integrity under the various loads it will be experiencing. Elaphe was able to secure some funding from the EU to develop their hub motors. As I recall, the contract required testing data and analysis, and the main issue was ensuring the air gap spacing under various loads and against environmental intrusion. In their call with Aptera, Elaphe stated that the hub motor would require periodic maintenance to replace a seal. They downplayed the difficulty of this as the wheel can easily be removed, say for tire rotation, during this time the seal could be replaced. Do you think you can get Elaphe to give us a bit more information on these seals?
Really Very Nice explanation. Protean Electric also makes only radial flux hub motors; their motors have already hit the streets via Dongfeng Fengshen E70 car in China; reg transverse flux, the Swedish Hyper Car maker Koenigsegg has made one such motor and named it Quark-E motor and they are calling this tech as Raxial Flux; a combo of radial and axial flux.Regenerative breaking with Torque vectoring plus 4wheel steering by wire would be the ideal of any automotive transport. All the tech is available; only needs to be put together.
Excellent deep dive. I hope they layer in additional regenerative companion wheels dedicated to recapture some of the energy spent from a neighborly wheel issuing torque for the transport truck they have planned.
Thank you! I've been wondering about the Aptera hub motors.
Yeah, it is definitely a balance between cost, use, real world complications and capabilities of axial flux motors. Koenigsegg just announced their Quark EV motor that apparently uses both radial and axial flux design (TFM?) and produces a whopping 335HP/443TQ (246kW) in a 68lb (30.8Kg) motor. But it only makes that huge power for 20 seconds, and then ramps down to 134HP (99kW), which is still good for its size and weight. We don't know about the Quark's efficiency, but Koenigsegg's hyper/megacars like the Gemera cost well over $1M, so they are using a lot of exotic components and materials in this new motor that would not be realistic or cost effective on the Aptera.
linear labs is a scam, they haven't produced any motors
i think i have ideas on how to maintain range
@@Blox117you are correct!
Quality look at this, thanks.
I wonwder about replacing the converters and power controllers, they get hot and dusty, that's the main power failures when motors are hot causing voltage resistance. Temperature sensors and data of power components make finding any cause of component or connectivity issues a easy fix, when or should a issue arise.
Its funny how i have notes and designs for such that come all the way since 2015 but lack capital to put the project in motion, good work guys
Interesting about the TFM. Thanks
Next question is where do they put the flux capacitors.
I hope Aptera publishes more vids on the beta testing. Curious about the airbags.
Thanks for diving into Alaphe and motors in general. I wonder if Tesla will use wheel motors on the cybertruck after all.
I know this video is a bit old now but it did answer my question about driving in a thunderstorm.
Thanks for the great content summary. It really seems like axial flux might only make sense for systems which don't need to fit unrelated components (ie breaks) or handle unexpected lateral loads. This explains why it is still a great option for small electric planes but might not easily find its way to automotive (atleast not without exotic materials to handle the engineering requirements). Definitely a goof on Chris's part in the Leno video but overall it doesn't make much difference to the end product. Regardless of the flux type the motor should achieve very high efficiency and thats the key.
not really, i managed to make my own custom axial motor. i am considering adding a radial component by bolting together the two rotors into one and having the third in the middle rotate over top of the stator
Good stuff.
Hopefully we see simpler more efficient designs sooner rather than later
Thanks for this deep dive. I did not know anything of this subject so now I’m better informed.
Elon Musk says: The best part is no part.
Scotty says: The more they overtink the plumbing, the easier it is to stuff up the drain.
NEVS bring this very good technology by Saab back wheel engine hub.
Is there still no update on motor seal replacement. You would think with all the experience and years of developing these hub motors they would at least have a ballpark of the longevity/cost of replacing similar seals so we could factor in said maintenance cost.Seems like too many people are glossing over this subject please address as soon as possible after all this is the drivetrain. Right now I don't know If it is closer to $100 or $1000 per motor and how often ballpark at least.
Well there's many fields where electric motors have run for over 10 years straight with only minor maintenance. Seals are likely about the same as seals for an an upper valve gasket leak on an ICE. So likely in the $50 to do it yourself up to $350 depending on the shop. But I'd say you're more likely to have issues with the bearings especially since Aptera is a new brand and it also is a weak point for hub motors for some reason.
Thank you
I'm considering Axial Flux to replace an old air cooled VW engine in my beetle. it should be simple as replacing the IC engine with the Axial Flux Motor on the trans-axle. No worries about flexing on turns or brake dust. Sealed to keep it clean of dirt and other foreign objects I can't see why this wouldn't work. Any feedback on that? Afterthought, it's a 60 HP Magnesium Alloy engine that weighs around 150 pounds more or less.
Break dust is irrelevant, I barely use the breaks on my Tesla and being that Aptera is a LOT lighter you'll hardly ever have the necessity to use the breaks at all
6:50 Linear Labs is not making transverse motors, it is called toroidal motor but is not as efficient as an axial or radial outer design like Elaphe.
I'm all for tried and true .
Brake dust venting isn't a big problem for drum brakes, so shouldn't be a problem in this case.
When do you think the 1st Aptera auto-cycle will be delivered?
Never!
Porsche Tungsten Carbide Brakes for the brake dust issue
I'm just wondering if Elaphe currently has their hub motors being widely used in other products .
I watched a video this morning about Lordstown Motors truck where it was mentioned they are using the Elaphe hub motor.
@@michics100 I am very glad to hear that, I don't want my car to be a complete science project. 😆
Lordstown have set up a full production line that produces the larger version of the Elaphe hub motor. This will supply 4 motors for each Endurance pick up truck.
In the animation, if you look at the far motor you can see it isn't sealed.
Having established that the hub is not sealed, and given that road debris includes nails and other ferrous bits of metal, how robust is this design for possible metal intrusion?
The critical components in the wheel ARE sealed. (potted)
@@n.brucenelson5920 yeah and how long until that stuff cracks and breaks off? then you have no motor. stupid design
@@Blox117 I have worked with such compounds in marine electric motors. They are rubbery and do not "crack off" This is well tested tech built to ISO standards and well tested.
@@n.brucenelson5920 amazing, i truly didnt know you could fill the air gap with rubber. that rubber is truly a miracle material
@@Blox117 The air gap in a motor is not a "component" Look at an engineering drawing and understand how they are built. The large electric motors that drive passenger ships are immersed in salt water in pods outside the hulls. Achieving proper isolation from the elements is a much easier problem in the hub motors and has been long solved.
How much?? Is it???.....and what sizes 15" 16" 18"
Aptera is using 16: wheels on their Elaphe wheel motors. The upgrade to a third motor costs $2500.
Break dust seriously? My chevy has an enclosure just like that. But ok that's a topic, where does it go?
Brake dust and other contaminants are sealed out of the motor by a shock absorbing potting compound.
If you can’t run it underwater, you won’t be able to drive in rain. What about ice and snow, and road salt, all realities in the North?
Aptera wheels will be able to operate in at least 10 ft of water. All the other contaminates are sealed out by a shock absorbing potting compound, similar to what boats such as passenger ocean liners use to seal the motors that run outside the hulls immersed in seawater. This is well tested tech at this point.
It's hard for me to understand how the permanent magnets don't pick up lots of metal debris .
They are completely potted.
@@n.brucenelson5920 Yes but magnetic fields will travel through any type of casing and small metal debris could stick on outside casings, but maybe that would do no harm .
Many brake pads are ceramic or aluminum so they don't make magnetic dust.
Heh, you forgot to add the link to the video you recommended. ;)
Which video was it? I'll link it
@@ApteraOwnersClub The kid explaining the electrical motors. :)
@@ApteraOwnersClub The unlisted TFM video you started talking about at 6:00
Oh I added it to the description now thanks
@@ApteraOwnersClub Thanks a lot. :)
Now, if there are so many problems with Axial flux motors, why did Mercedes-Benz buy Yasa, after developing and testing them for the Formula E Racing cars?
Probably Elaphe is not as far along the development path as Mecedes. Have a look at the Mercedes EQxx ...
Axial motors are great.
The issue is using them in hub motors. Yasa does not make hub motors. The EQxx uses radial flux motors that are not hub motors. The axial flux motors made by yasa are central motors that use driveshafts rather than hub motors. I've covered both the EQxx and yasa axial flux motors in this channel.
th-cam.com/video/PwQNID-QCI4/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/e1hHE7AyeZY/w-d-xo.html
there aren't problems, they are just too lazy to change.
@@Blox117 Actually the axial flux motor was invented first, a whole 10 years first in reality. The issue more is that axial is far more expensive and harder to make as durable. The main designs for it are more efficient than radial, but they wouldn't take nearly as rough an impact directly. But the main one is just the price. Being more expensive and elaphe being a startup likely is the main issue.
@@Skylancer727 the impact would be inline with where the bearings are
Did Elaphe consider an IPMSynRM motor? They are radial flux and are more efficient and run cooler than induction motors especially at highway speeds. This could increase the current range of the Aptera. See video th-cam.com/video/esUb7Zy5Oio/w-d-xo.html
this technology is good, but what is the use of this video if no one has yet started mass producing such cars
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