Even if 4 ducats/month for 50 PP was less worth it than 3 ducats/month for 1/1/1 advisors, the strongest part of it is that you can stack those two. 2/2/2 advisors will be ~12 ducats, but 1/1/1 advisors + 50 PP from support rebels will be ~7 ducats. The difference becomes even more stark when you go to 3/3/3 or 2/2/2 + 50 PP.
I really wish the AI wasn’t as incompetent as it generally is, I love the idea of using all the subterfuge, trade embargoes, privateering and eventually full scale war to fight a rival on multiple fronts but the best way of dealing with rivals is just fighting them normally and ignoring most of the mechanics :(
Yeah but as I showed you cannot do that just because you want to at any time right? If you play as Spain and have a Colonial Game and your only valid rival are the Ottomans... you still wouldn`t want to fight them every 15 right? And I also showed that for small-medium sized nations (like Scotland, Bohemia or cyprus) you are often simply to weak to win a war against your rivals and their allies so that a big war would be more expensive than speniding money on supporting rebels every 5 years right?
@@thestudentYT Yeah but you can still trivially one faith as Spain, so starting as Castile you really don't need any of these advanced tactics. I just thought of 3 different achievements I want to use this for so thank you very much!
Yeah sounds cool but knowing how the AI works(and kinda already does with disscontent subterfuge option, yeah AI uses that Ottomans always do it) you would end up with your 3 rivals supporting rebels every single time at every single opportunity, going even into bankrupt to fund those rebels( very commonly i see enemies peacing out of wars, even at a loss just to face the player, or even lettung other AI fully siege them just to attack you). I would love this things being more udable by AI, but with the state of the current AI it would end up being obnoxious at the very least. Still AI can use some other diplomatic optios, although rarely, like selling provinces which is rare, so much i only saw it happen 4 times in 500 hours and now they can ask you for the intitutions spread, which is very nice
You are correct, your AI rivals rarely use those mechanichs, but every AI nation, including ones that arent your rivals are in some way trying to play against you because the game is made that way
I love supporting rebels as Byz. Usually the Knights raid my coast, then I spend the 50-60 ducats and a stack of my own rebels bigger than their army pops out and I get a free core and province without any effort.
This is why I love your content. Playing EU4 calcified into this stale repetitive meta that everyone follows and they write off things that don't fit into that meta as "useless", but not you. Every time I watch one of your vids I learn something new and interesting about the game and get new ideas for future playthroughs. It has made playing EU4 so much more enjoyable.
Well put, its what I hate in HoI 4 as well. I love playing non-meta it's so much more fun and enjoyable than what is considered optimal, and can at times give surprising results.
Also with Espionage, you can support separatist rebels ~2-3 years before declaring war on someone (so for example start spying ~4 years before truce is up for the spy network bonuses and support a rebel faction too) and if rebels pop up during war, you let them do their thing, and you might get lucky and a new tag pops out for you to then diplo-vassalize/declare war on immediately afterwards, allowing you to take more land. Caveat: if you call in allies or let vassals act independently, they will be hostile to the rebel troups and might mess things up... You can also support pretender rebels IF they've already fired in big nations' personal union subjects, like Austria's Hungary or Poland's Lithuania, or Castille's Aragon & Naples, and actually find the unique "enforce rebel demands" peace option actually useful for once... While yes, you can break the PU's by spending 200 bird mana and 100% of the warscore normally without this, it allows you to save the mana and potentially get it done for less than 100% warscore cost.
Enforcing Rebel demands always takes exactly 50% warscore and costs no diplo points at all... so supporting pretender rebels of PU's would save you half the warscore and 200 dip mana :)
If it always 50% WS it's not much useful except breaking big unions (Iberian, Austria-Hungary, Burgundian). And if you're dealing with giga timurid, support for khorasan or transoxiana can be useful.
Your videos are absolutely brilliant. I have 1600 hours in EU4 yet you manage to show me something I have never once used or thought of! Keep it up love your content and all the hard work you put in!
Going to war is support of your rebels has its own achievement. It costed me quite a long time to understand that a few years ago, just because I was achievement hunting. But after I learned it it was super useful. But thanks for the tip, because I also don't have that achievement of the papal states, and it seems doable!
I've actually supported rebels on a number of occasions, but I was playing pretty large nations at the time and either I was roleplaying or was just trying to hamstring someone who had blobbed like crazy like Ottomans or the PLC. I had absolutely no idea how the power projection scaled, or that it went all the way up to 50. Thank you for making this video!
It's useful in the super early game for power projection, but like everything else that scales based on income, it becomes not worth thousands of ducats for a small gain anymore. You can get into manipulating your trade income, but that gets gamey and half of a thousands of ducats is still thousands of ducats. That said, the CB without borders is powerful, especially when you're trying to do something weird before you can get good CBs. There's a reason Paradox made the AI refuse all loans from the player, and why Deus Vult got moved to the end of the idea group.
25:00 Keep in mind in this case (at the base 10% chance of progress) you have about 75% chance of the rebels spawning within those 10 years (it's only 7% chance within 5 years, but 99% chance within 15 years if you do it 3 times).
just one thing about Bohemia... If you wait until 15th-16th December, you can rival Saxony and Brandenburg(but do not take a military advisor, who increase the units limit)! If you lucky, you can sometimes rival even Munchen(I think it happens when Munich takes exactly that military advisor...)...
There is still one big reason why a no CB might be useful and that is time. If something needs to go fast, you can't wait a year for the spynetwork and another for the rebels.
Often times I need to open up a new front for AE juggling but have no one to dec on, and I refuse to no CB, so supporting rebels for the CB may actually be really useful. I’m not convinced the PP is worth the huge investment early game though unless you’re a pirate or something that gets money from an unorthodox source
Yeah, in most cases, you can get PP by choosing smaller nations to Show Strength bully or fully annex. But if you're midsized or in a hugbox, it's a decent option so you don't have to fully maintain your troops and forts and deal with mercenaries or reinforcing etc. It's not worth it most of the time, but now and then it's the best play, so it's good to keep the possibility in mind.
It can be really usefull if you're an horde like Oirat or Manchu since you're using the Ming bank to fund their rebels and get a ming explotion to fully conquer china faster.
So many spy networks have faded due to ppl canceling it because of "no possible neighbouring province". Thanks for the video! From now on I will use the rebel CB.
Never once supported rebels or even considered it, but this is so informative about how it can actually be useful. Even if you don't buy that it's worth the expense for PP, the CB is nice.
Just tried this in my current game as Pegu (the coastal nation in Burma), and it's been very useful! A particularly large rebel stack popping off in Ayutthaya let me conquer Thailand, the constant 50 PP let me keep up in tech and ideas without Innovative despite needing to conquer a lot of smaller states to reach the power level of my rivals, and now that I've reached the point where I'd rather buy monuments than get 15 PP from Bahmanis, I'm using it for Old World colonialism. I've just surpassed Bahmanis by taking Sri Lanka as a vassal via rebels and using it with Maritime Ideas to distract them with a second front- despite having zero espionage or colonial ideas and my nearest frontier being all the way in Bengal; it cost me about 140 ducats and gained me the start of a worldwide empire. (Funding a small rebellion in a small nation is just as cheap no matter how big you get, after all.) It's given me just enough range to take Socotra, and I'm planning to use it as an outpost to invade Adal and set up a vassal beachhead there. The Ottomans are going to start feeling the effects of decadence soon, and without Support Rebels I'd have to conquer half the known world just to interact with them!
I’ve seen support rebels to be very useful before in a situation where you cut off military access to a nation (classic example being byz supporting bulgarians in ottoman) but I never knew it gave you power projection or a cb. I assume the cb doesn’t appear if you have a truce with that nation or maybe I wasn’t paying attention, but the fact you can actually take provinces or vassalize compared to a lot of the other niche cbs is pretty crazy. Never noticed the power projection either, even though it is only 5 years. But for early game PP generation it is actually pretty game changing for me. Thanks for the great info as always!
@@wazoo41that's every paradox game. Cripple the player's ability to make the AI seem capable. I've played hoi4 and seen what the AI does with divisions. I don't think they ever fill out doctrines in that game because they have 30 different templates with the same layout
Note that the starting case wasn't optimized. You could probably get to the 50 PP with about 2 ducats/mo in this situation, and often you just need to fill a gap of 10 PP or so. That's kinda useful where scornfuls only cover it part of the time. Otherwise the cost is imo prohibitive, it's hard to make that money back in 5 years and you'll want those loans available for your actual war, which would usually be the way to get that PP long-term. Better for trade-based nations of course, or when you use others as piggybanks. Hordes probably don't need it much though. The 'cb on any nation' application can be useful in specific situations, but you'd need to already be fairly rich to use it, and it takes proper timing and having the spy network in place already. Overall, it's not an awful mechanic, but I'd love for it to get a proper rework. Where perhaps you could first foster a revolt, but then send manpower, gold etc, to make the revolt more powerful. Though it might be game-spoiling when the AI does it on you.
Whenever I have to fight ottomans in the midgame and I already have way more than enough income, I use the spy network, that I built during the war for siege anyway, to support rebels in the end of/after the war. It slows down their recovery somewhat, so that I can proxy-war them right after I core what I took and take some more free land while they are still low on manpower and their armies are scattered
Oh hey, I rewrote the wiki page for this not too long ago. Though I completely missed how much power projection one could get from this for relatively few ducats. Perhaps the best way to get Power projection for nations with "irregular income" like Morroco or New Providence. Would probably also work extremely well with the -100% autonomy change cooldown built I've been tinkering with... though by the time you can have -100, Power projection is probably already maxxed. One thing about the CB: Rebels actually can't revolt if no province of theirs has unrest. So those big Noble or Particularists Rebel groups can sit at 100% revolt chance, but will never actually revolt until the AI gets some war exhaustion/stab hits and their national unrest increases.
@@cirokistermann7834 -25% Monument "Nizwa Fort" -25% Tier 3 Reform "Centralized Monarchical Bureaucracy" -50% Age of Absolutism Ability At -100%, you can change the autonomy of your provinces every day, and the unrest also only lasts a day, so there is no downside. The only way to have -100% outside of the age of absolutism is to play as the livonian order and reform into the "livonian absolute monarchy".
To be honest, I really don't mind EU4's "support rebels" to be borderline useless. In EU3 the "support revolt" was stupidly overpowered in certain situations, especially after you had beaten a country, deleted their army and they had either uncored provinces or -3 stability. It was an unstoppable death spiral. The way "support revolt" mission worked was it had a fixed cost of 1 spy + 25 ducats, and it gave a flat +3% revolt risk modifier to a province (in EU3 every province had an individual risk, there wasn't a country wide revolt like in EU4 and the modifier was actually stackable from what I recall) and the mission had a 45% chance of instantly spawning new rebels who would also act like allies if you declared war on that country.
21:00 this is insane. That achievement is now almost trivial, as soon as you're strong enough, and it's not even the only one. All you need now is access through a few major nations to get the baltic vassals once you've grown enough and they're weak enough. It even trivializes getting to mamluks afterwards.
huh, that's actually really quite a powerful way to get legitimacy. I am impressed. I had never actually looked at it, but it looks VERY viable just to get 100 resting power projection, which gives you +10 resting prestige, and the total legitimacy impact would be.... 0.6 per year? that's not bad at all.
This mechanic is perfect for killing off the knights by supporting their byzantine rebels, even if you aren’t playing byz its amazing to just stop those raids
Hmm did not know Supporting Rebels gave power projection, that is actually pretty useful to know. Only time I supported rebels was YEARS ago, when you would basically lock the ottomans in a war, as Byz, before they got buffed, and then siege them forever, and support Greek rebels, who would be on your side, and give you cores.
This is interesting but there is a problem. When I make war with visualisation causes beli against big nations, I can't vassal them cause of high war score. This works only against small nations.
You've made some good points but they are only valid is very niche situations. Scotland, Cyprus case are great examples. Basically when you're playing a nation that can't war their rivals because they are too strong, supporting rebels is the only way to gain power projection in the short term. But your example of Bohemia is disingenuous. They are not limited to rivaling Hungary, Poland or Denmark. You can easily rival Brandeburg or Saxony and get the "Humiliate rival" CB and suing for "Show strength" which is way stronger. That's 2 wars that will certainly cost you less than whatever gold you're gonna spend on supporting rebels and give you 60 power projection and 200 of each mana. The "anywhere in the world CB" part is also incredibly niche with that Papal State example for the achievement. And that example also has a couple of flaws in it's own right. When supporting rebels they do not gain any modifiers, they do not spawn a bigger stack, they don't have any added discipline or moral or even a general. This means a country can, for the most part, deal with them immediately after they spawn, making you basically waste money if they're killed before the month tick. There is also, as far as I am aware, no in-game option to get a notification of rebels spawning in a country of interest. So you need to check every month for that black stripped province which is beyond annoying. If you're supporting rebels before a revolt it's a huge commitment for something that will most times not even work because, like you said yourself, an average spawn of rebels takes longer than the support rebels duration, can be dealt with military points and a lot can change in those years before they spawn. The country of interests alliances for example and also your own context in the game. I'm also not sure how you're going to get military access between you (The Papal State) and the Livonian Order. Don't get me wrong I enjoy learning about the game and you've presented good options so I'm thankful for the video.
Thanks for the Comment! I never said it was very strong or something anyways but even on what you mentioned sadly there are a lot of things that are simply wrong: 1. I couldn't rival anyone else as Bohemia... It is simply wrong what you said as there where no Brandenburg or Saxony available as Rivals in that Ironman Start that I did... the only 4th Nation that I could have selected was Lithuania which doesn't help either way 2. Actually the Supported Rebels get buffed Stats... so again it's simply not true what you said: The Rebel Stack get's the exact same Combat Stats as the supporting Nation has... I had a Game recently where my Ruler was Strict and in a battle that my supported Rebels fought you could literally hover over their Discipline Stat in the battle screen and see the "Strict" modifiers for +5% Discipline 3. There are easy other ways as for example insulting other nations to update your CBs so you have a 100% chance of getting the CB as long as you see the rebels uprising which is also pretty easy because they lift the fog of war for you and are shown as a blue allied Army in the otherwise Grey landscape... So again thanks for the comment but I just wanted to get this right here :)
@@thestudentYT Regarding Saxony and Brandenburg you have to wait a while or so for them to hire a military advisor and you don't do it and they allow it there, or so they say in other comments.
I’ve used it twice once as sambas on ming to form lanfang and once as mullhouse to get a war going as all my adjacent land wasn’t viable targets. Also did a min max rebel support as dithmarcian, don’t recommend
You didn't include the recruitment cost of the level 1 advisors with the inital 4.17 vs 3-ish conparison which adds an additional 45 spread over 5 years to the advisor cost, making the support rebels option even better value for money.
Sure but typically the advisors don`t die after 5 years so you would have to calculate that relative to the lenght of the investment which is 5 years for supporting rebels and I would say around 20 years for advisors... so it would be 25% of the recruitment cost compared to the 5 years rebel investment in reality... But you are right: It is at least some Money that I missed in my calculation
@@thestudentYT correct, and there are also the associated events with having specific advisor combinations, which also are not included in the potential benefits, it's still great value for money. I really like these videos of how to utilize the mechanics better instead of just abusing/stacking 👍
id say in early game its still more valuable the advisors for 2 things: the events and specific buffs support rebels wont give you radical reforms, for example. +400 mana instantly is a huge lead early game some buffs are very good like the dip rep (lets say, you want to vassalize, or get strong allies), and you wont get any from pp.
Just take both, advisors and PP bonus. Money is not important, it's just a way. Majority of the nations, even the opm, you can refill debts and make a positive economy in less than 10 years with wars.
@@Papyjulio Keep in mind that the video is not made for EU4 players, not good EU4 players specifically, this is for the average player who can't have a decent economy at 10 with Aachen.
It seems that, unlike the trade conflict or independence 'casus belli', paradox forgot to force you to press demands and restrict taking land with this support rebels🤣. "I'm going to support your rebellion by conquering your country"
@TheStudent quick question, that thing with cb works only wen you are supporting rebels that fire? In my swiss game I didn't get cb when I was just supporting. Also I wonder if that method works when you want to get an achievement to supporting rebels in the other country
@@thestudentYT sounds clear, but I'm gonna check this out tommorow xd as we say in Poland, old age is not a pleasurement and I think I should recover myself before starting some thinking processes xD
recently in a spain game england converted back to catholicism for some reason so i kept trying to support anglican zealots so that they would convert and i would get the PU but it never worked, they didn't have 50% anglican provinces even on the second time i attacked after enforcing the tolerance of heathens modifier
I always waited until I could get the Era score to get claims on claims to take land in Ireland in order to invade England, this will make it much more viable to invade England without building a massive navy in the early game 😂 And you'll never catch me doing a no cb on Byz anymore.
Yes and No: You can do that but you need 50% Warscore for enforcing Rebel demands so you would get all your cores with that 50% warscore and then you would have additional 50% warscore left
Thank you for this video, I allways wanted people to understand. That playing a full on Diplo game is possible with support rebels and then Diplo vassalising them. It's a 0 AE game!!! There is just one cost you didn't really put up the spotlight and that is the diplomats, it costs a year worth of a diplomats time for that. Normal you would use him for other things such as allies, vassal loyalty, curry favors, and claims. That is all not possible in the time span of one year you are using him to build up a spynetwork for pp.
Definetly Not... PDX actually even buffed this Support Rebels Mechanic several Times in the last 2 Years. 2 Years ago you needed 60 spynetwork instead of 30 and before the rework of the ideas espionage ideas only gave +50% Support Rebel efficiency instead of the +100% that it gives right now... Also it is still not Overpowered or something... it is just not useless XD
Actually, they already had nerfed it hugely once. Many, many, many years I ago I used Support Rebels in my Three Mountains campaign. Immediately afterwards, they disallowed you from using unjustified demands in the Support Rebels casus belli, citing that they didn't intend the CB to be used in these kind of ways. I'm glad to see they changed it back.
Yeah the problem is that the rebels still can only rise up if at least one of their Provinces has at least some (>0) Unrest... that's why you should always try to go for seperatist rebels of newly conquered land or to get mil access for a few months and send an army to their lands to see their Provinces and their Unrest
supporting rebels can actually be incredibly hilarious, you just usually need to pay attention to other countriess internal situations to best use it, and who cares about foreign relations, am i right? ha ha! im an american.
![How to INSTANTLY PU Every Christian Nation without an heir! [NO LUCK! - Super EASY!] #ScriptedUnions](/img/n.gif)
Even if 4 ducats/month for 50 PP was less worth it than 3 ducats/month for 1/1/1 advisors, the strongest part of it is that you can stack those two. 2/2/2 advisors will be ~12 ducats, but 1/1/1 advisors + 50 PP from support rebels will be ~7 ducats. The difference becomes even more stark when you go to 3/3/3 or 2/2/2 + 50 PP.
I really wish the AI wasn’t as incompetent as it generally is, I love the idea of using all the subterfuge, trade embargoes, privateering and eventually full scale war to fight a rival on multiple fronts but the best way of dealing with rivals is just fighting them normally and ignoring most of the mechanics :(
Yeah but as I showed you cannot do that just because you want to at any time right? If you play as Spain and have a Colonial Game and your only valid rival are the Ottomans... you still wouldn`t want to fight them every 15 right?
And I also showed that for small-medium sized nations (like Scotland, Bohemia or cyprus) you are often simply to weak to win a war against your rivals and their allies so that a big war would be more expensive than speniding money on supporting rebels every 5 years right?
@@thestudentYT Yeah but you can still trivially one faith as Spain, so starting as Castile you really don't need any of these advanced tactics. I just thought of 3 different achievements I want to use this for so thank you very much!
Yeah sounds cool but knowing how the AI works(and kinda already does with disscontent subterfuge option, yeah AI uses that Ottomans always do it) you would end up with your 3 rivals supporting rebels every single time at every single opportunity, going even into bankrupt to fund those rebels( very commonly i see enemies peacing out of wars, even at a loss just to face the player, or even lettung other AI fully siege them just to attack you). I would love this things being more udable by AI, but with the state of the current AI it would end up being obnoxious at the very least. Still AI can use some other diplomatic optios, although rarely, like selling provinces which is rare, so much i only saw it happen 4 times in 500 hours and now they can ask you for the intitutions spread, which is very nice
You are correct, your AI rivals rarely use those mechanichs, but every AI nation, including ones that arent your rivals are in some way trying to play against you because the game is made that way
Xorme ai my love
Very impressive! Now random hint: if you make country as hostile in the diplomaty window, your vassals would NOT give it miltary access.
Does that work with allies as well?
May the RNGesus bless you for this priceless pearl of wisdom even though it came half a decade later than I should reach out.
I love supporting rebels as Byz. Usually the Knights raid my coast, then I spend the 50-60 ducats and a stack of my own rebels bigger than their army pops out and I get a free core and province without any effort.
Going to mentally bank that little gold nugget of a strategy there.
Holy shit thst makes sense
thestudent singlehandedly has made me so much better at eu4 over the past year
This is why I love your content. Playing EU4 calcified into this stale repetitive meta that everyone follows and they write off things that don't fit into that meta as "useless", but not you.
Every time I watch one of your vids I learn something new and interesting about the game and get new ideas for future playthroughs. It has made playing EU4 so much more enjoyable.
Thanks! That was my Idea for this channel :)
Well put, its what I hate in HoI 4 as well. I love playing non-meta it's so much more fun and enjoyable than what is considered optimal, and can at times give surprising results.
The CB bit is actually super cool
Yeah, but you can't visualise big nations with more than a 100 war-score.
Also with Espionage, you can support separatist rebels ~2-3 years before declaring war on someone (so for example start spying ~4 years before truce is up for the spy network bonuses and support a rebel faction too) and if rebels pop up during war, you let them do their thing, and you might get lucky and a new tag pops out for you to then diplo-vassalize/declare war on immediately afterwards, allowing you to take more land. Caveat: if you call in allies or let vassals act independently, they will be hostile to the rebel troups and might mess things up...
You can also support pretender rebels IF they've already fired in big nations' personal union subjects, like Austria's Hungary or Poland's Lithuania, or Castille's Aragon & Naples, and actually find the unique "enforce rebel demands" peace option actually useful for once... While yes, you can break the PU's by spending 200 bird mana and 100% of the warscore normally without this, it allows you to save the mana and potentially get it done for less than 100% warscore cost.
Enforcing Rebel demands always takes exactly 50% warscore and costs no diplo points at all... so supporting pretender rebels of PU's would save you half the warscore and 200 dip mana :)
@@thestudentYT if u release nation by supporting rebels will you get +100 opinion bonus like "normal" release in peace deal?
If it always 50% WS it's not much useful except breaking big unions (Iberian, Austria-Hungary, Burgundian). And if you're dealing with giga timurid, support for khorasan or transoxiana can be useful.
Yes
Your videos are absolutely brilliant. I have 1600 hours in EU4 yet you manage to show me something I have never once used or thought of! Keep it up love your content and all the hard work you put in!
The cb thing fits the emperor dealing with protestantism really good video
Going to war is support of your rebels has its own achievement. It costed me quite a long time to understand that a few years ago, just because I was achievement hunting. But after I learned it it was super useful. But thanks for the tip, because I also don't have that achievement of the papal states, and it seems doable!
Can your enemy call allies for such a war
Nice.. used rebell support in the early years of eu4 quite often. Its nice to see that there is ppp involved now :) will be included in the next run
I've actually supported rebels on a number of occasions, but I was playing pretty large nations at the time and either I was roleplaying or was just trying to hamstring someone who had blobbed like crazy like Ottomans or the PLC. I had absolutely no idea how the power projection scaled, or that it went all the way up to 50. Thank you for making this video!
Absolutely love your videos and explanations. I'd kill for an Angevin Kingdom run to help with achievements ❤
The Angrevin is just win the union over France and brrr, if you want, the Burgundian Inheretance too.
@@cirokistermann7834 my event didn't fire with burg
@@TheLostplanet99 Takes time, always fire when the initial heir of Burgundy dies.
It's useful in the super early game for power projection, but like everything else that scales based on income, it becomes not worth thousands of ducats for a small gain anymore. You can get into manipulating your trade income, but that gets gamey and half of a thousands of ducats is still thousands of ducats. That said, the CB without borders is powerful, especially when you're trying to do something weird before you can get good CBs. There's a reason Paradox made the AI refuse all loans from the player, and why Deus Vult got moved to the end of the idea group.
25:00 Keep in mind in this case (at the base 10% chance of progress) you have about 75% chance of the rebels spawning within those 10 years (it's only 7% chance within 5 years, but 99% chance within 15 years if you do it 3 times).
"Talented and Ambitions Daughter..." The best event in the game. You absolutely have to take it!
Sadly I won't play that Game any further XD
All of these videos are basically expanding my mind. Thanks for all you do
just one thing about Bohemia... If you wait until 15th-16th December, you can rival Saxony and Brandenburg(but do not take a military advisor, who increase the units limit)! If you lucky, you can sometimes rival even Munchen(I think it happens when Munich takes exactly that military advisor...)...
Wow, this is incredibly useful. Thank you!
Incredible, I might never declare another No CB in my life
Depends on your campaign. Three Mountains basically requires you to start with a no CB
There is still one big reason why a no CB might be useful and that is time. If something needs to go fast, you can't wait a year for the spynetwork and another for the rebels.
Often times I need to open up a new front for AE juggling but have no one to dec on, and I refuse to no CB, so supporting rebels for the CB may actually be really useful. I’m not convinced the PP is worth the huge investment early game though unless you’re a pirate or something that gets money from an unorthodox source
Mainly because I find PP is usually easy enough to get just through taking your rival’s land in most cases
Yeah, in most cases, you can get PP by choosing smaller nations to Show Strength bully or fully annex. But if you're midsized or in a hugbox, it's a decent option so you don't have to fully maintain your troops and forts and deal with mercenaries or reinforcing etc. It's not worth it most of the time, but now and then it's the best play, so it's good to keep the possibility in mind.
It can be really usefull if you're an horde like Oirat or Manchu since you're using the Ming bank to fund their rebels and get a ming explotion to fully conquer china faster.
So many spy networks have faded due to ppl canceling it because of "no possible neighbouring province".
Thanks for the video! From now on I will use the rebel CB.
I use it when I'm in a war and they pop out for an opponent, as it makes rebels unable to siege down the provinces you have occupied 😁
I love your videos when sped up to 4x speed.
Wow, just wow... Thx for the video !
Never once supported rebels or even considered it, but this is so informative about how it can actually be useful. Even if you don't buy that it's worth the expense for PP, the CB is nice.
Just tried this in my current game as Pegu (the coastal nation in Burma), and it's been very useful! A particularly large rebel stack popping off in Ayutthaya let me conquer Thailand, the constant 50 PP let me keep up in tech and ideas without Innovative despite needing to conquer a lot of smaller states to reach the power level of my rivals, and now that I've reached the point where I'd rather buy monuments than get 15 PP from Bahmanis, I'm using it for Old World colonialism.
I've just surpassed Bahmanis by taking Sri Lanka as a vassal via rebels and using it with Maritime Ideas to distract them with a second front- despite having zero espionage or colonial ideas and my nearest frontier being all the way in Bengal; it cost me about 140 ducats and gained me the start of a worldwide empire. (Funding a small rebellion in a small nation is just as cheap no matter how big you get, after all.) It's given me just enough range to take Socotra, and I'm planning to use it as an outpost to invade Adal and set up a vassal beachhead there. The Ottomans are going to start feeling the effects of decadence soon, and without Support Rebels I'd have to conquer half the known world just to interact with them!
Very good video. Instructive and helpful. Thanks!
I’ve seen support rebels to be very useful before in a situation where you cut off military access to a nation (classic example being byz supporting bulgarians in ottoman) but I never knew it gave you power projection or a cb. I assume the cb doesn’t appear if you have a truce with that nation or maybe I wasn’t paying attention, but the fact you can actually take provinces or vassalize compared to a lot of the other niche cbs is pretty crazy. Never noticed the power projection either, even though it is only 5 years. But for early game PP generation it is actually pretty game changing for me. Thanks for the great info as always!
Amazing video as usual!! Thanx
it's a shame eu4 never got an auto-spy and an in-depth espionage overhaul
Unfortunately, paradox decided that adding unbalanced focus trees is more important than proper game mechanics
Espionage has been broken overpowered before, but the AI is incapable of fighting against it, so they keep crippling it.
to be fair, without broken focus trees, the ai wouldn't be able to expand properly anyways@@daro4066
a true chad that recognizes the perpetual problems with eu4 simply stem from lazy ai programming, and not necessarily balance@@LibertyMonk
@@wazoo41that's every paradox game. Cripple the player's ability to make the AI seem capable. I've played hoi4 and seen what the AI does with divisions. I don't think they ever fill out doctrines in that game because they have 30 different templates with the same layout
I love this game. Wife left with the kids but i regret nothing. 10/10 would divorce again.
Chaddess Marie just comin in for no reason
Note that the starting case wasn't optimized. You could probably get to the 50 PP with about 2 ducats/mo in this situation, and often you just need to fill a gap of 10 PP or so. That's kinda useful where scornfuls only cover it part of the time.
Otherwise the cost is imo prohibitive, it's hard to make that money back in 5 years and you'll want those loans available for your actual war, which would usually be the way to get that PP long-term.
Better for trade-based nations of course, or when you use others as piggybanks. Hordes probably don't need it much though.
The 'cb on any nation' application can be useful in specific situations, but you'd need to already be fairly rich to use it, and it takes proper timing and having the spy network in place already.
Overall, it's not an awful mechanic, but I'd love for it to get a proper rework. Where perhaps you could first foster a revolt, but then send manpower, gold etc, to make the revolt more powerful. Though it might be game-spoiling when the AI does it on you.
Amazing video man!
Whenever I have to fight ottomans in the midgame and I already have way more than enough income, I use the spy network, that I built during the war for siege anyway, to support rebels in the end of/after the war. It slows down their recovery somewhat, so that I can proxy-war them right after I core what I took and take some more free land while they are still low on manpower and their armies are scattered
Oh hey, I rewrote the wiki page for this not too long ago. Though I completely missed how much power projection one could get from this for relatively few ducats. Perhaps the best way to get Power projection for nations with "irregular income" like Morroco or New Providence.
Would probably also work extremely well with the -100% autonomy change cooldown built I've been tinkering with... though by the time you can have -100, Power projection is probably already maxxed.
One thing about the CB: Rebels actually can't revolt if no province of theirs has unrest. So those big Noble or Particularists Rebel groups can sit at 100% revolt chance, but will never actually revolt until the AI gets some war exhaustion/stab hits and their national unrest increases.
-100% autonomy change cooldown is great for absolutism
@@marcinkusmierzak991 How get? I dont Understand
@@cirokistermann7834
-25% Monument "Nizwa Fort"
-25% Tier 3 Reform "Centralized Monarchical Bureaucracy"
-50% Age of Absolutism Ability
At -100%, you can change the autonomy of your provinces every day, and the unrest also only lasts a day, so there is no downside.
The only way to have -100% outside of the age of absolutism is to play as the livonian order and reform into the "livonian absolute monarchy".
To be honest, I really don't mind EU4's "support rebels" to be borderline useless. In EU3 the "support revolt" was stupidly overpowered in certain situations, especially after you had beaten a country, deleted their army and they had either uncored provinces or -3 stability. It was an unstoppable death spiral.
The way "support revolt" mission worked was it had a fixed cost of 1 spy + 25 ducats, and it gave a flat +3% revolt risk modifier to a province (in EU3 every province had an individual risk, there wasn't a country wide revolt like in EU4 and the modifier was actually stackable from what I recall) and the mission had a 45% chance of instantly spawning new rebels who would also act like allies if you declared war on that country.
21:00 this is insane. That achievement is now almost trivial, as soon as you're strong enough, and it's not even the only one. All you need now is access through a few major nations to get the baltic vassals once you've grown enough and they're weak enough. It even trivializes getting to mamluks afterwards.
The only reason I click support rebels is if I’m role playing as the cia.
huh, that's actually really quite a powerful way to get legitimacy. I am impressed. I had never actually looked at it, but it looks VERY viable just to get 100 resting power projection, which gives you +10 resting prestige, and the total legitimacy impact would be.... 0.6 per year? that's not bad at all.
Peasant republics during the peasants war hre disaster might benefit from this
Pretty useful, thanks!
This mechanic is perfect for killing off the knights by supporting their byzantine rebels, even if you aren’t playing byz its amazing to just stop those raids
Hmm did not know Supporting Rebels gave power projection, that is actually pretty useful to know.
Only time I supported rebels was YEARS ago, when you would basically lock the ottomans in a war, as Byz, before they got buffed, and then siege them forever, and support Greek rebels, who would be on your side, and give you cores.
This is interesting but there is a problem. When I make war with visualisation causes beli against big nations, I can't vassal them cause of high war score. This works only against small nations.
You've made some good points but they are only valid is very niche situations.
Scotland, Cyprus case are great examples. Basically when you're playing a nation that can't war their rivals because they are too strong, supporting rebels is the only way to gain power projection in the short term.
But your example of Bohemia is disingenuous. They are not limited to rivaling Hungary, Poland or Denmark. You can easily rival Brandeburg or Saxony and get the "Humiliate rival" CB and suing for "Show strength" which is way stronger. That's 2 wars that will certainly cost you less than whatever gold you're gonna spend on supporting rebels and give you 60 power projection and 200 of each mana.
The "anywhere in the world CB" part is also incredibly niche with that Papal State example for the achievement. And that example also has a couple of flaws in it's own right.
When supporting rebels they do not gain any modifiers, they do not spawn a bigger stack, they don't have any added discipline or moral or even a general. This means a country can, for the most part, deal with them immediately after they spawn, making you basically waste money if they're killed before the month tick.
There is also, as far as I am aware, no in-game option to get a notification of rebels spawning in a country of interest. So you need to check every month for that black stripped province which is beyond annoying.
If you're supporting rebels before a revolt it's a huge commitment for something that will most times not even work because, like you said yourself, an average spawn of rebels takes longer than the support rebels duration, can be dealt with military points and a lot can change in those years before they spawn. The country of interests alliances for example and also your own context in the game. I'm also not sure how you're going to get military access between you (The Papal State) and the Livonian Order.
Don't get me wrong I enjoy learning about the game and you've presented good options so I'm thankful for the video.
Thanks for the Comment! I never said it was very strong or something anyways but even on what you mentioned sadly there are a lot of things that are simply wrong:
1. I couldn't rival anyone else as Bohemia... It is simply wrong what you said as there where no Brandenburg or Saxony available as Rivals in that Ironman Start that I did... the only 4th Nation that I could have selected was Lithuania which doesn't help either way
2. Actually the Supported Rebels get buffed Stats... so again it's simply not true what you said: The Rebel Stack get's the exact same Combat Stats as the supporting Nation has... I had a Game recently where my Ruler was Strict and in a battle that my supported Rebels fought you could literally hover over their Discipline Stat in the battle screen and see the "Strict" modifiers for +5% Discipline
3. There are easy other ways as for example insulting other nations to update your CBs so you have a 100% chance of getting the CB as long as you see the rebels uprising which is also pretty easy because they lift the fog of war for you and are shown as a blue allied Army in the otherwise Grey landscape...
So again thanks for the comment but I just wanted to get this right here :)
@@thestudentYT Regarding Saxony and Brandenburg you have to wait a while or so for them to hire a military advisor and you don't do it and they allow it there, or so they say in other comments.
You missed that hiring the advisors costs gold, too.
I’ve used it twice once as sambas on ming to form lanfang and once as mullhouse to get a war going as all my adjacent land wasn’t viable targets. Also did a min max rebel support as dithmarcian, don’t recommend
You didn't include the recruitment cost of the level 1 advisors with the inital 4.17 vs 3-ish conparison which adds an additional 45 spread over 5 years to the advisor cost, making the support rebels option even better value for money.
Sure but typically the advisors don`t die after 5 years so you would have to calculate that relative to the lenght of the investment which is 5 years for supporting rebels and I would say around 20 years for advisors... so it would be 25% of the recruitment cost compared to the 5 years rebel investment in reality... But you are right: It is at least some Money that I missed in my calculation
@@thestudentYT correct, and there are also the associated events with having specific advisor combinations, which also are not included in the potential benefits, it's still great value for money.
I really like these videos of how to utilize the mechanics better instead of just abusing/stacking 👍
id say in early game its still more valuable the advisors for 2 things: the events and specific buffs
support rebels wont give you radical reforms, for example. +400 mana instantly is a huge lead early game
some buffs are very good like the dip rep (lets say, you want to vassalize, or get strong allies), and you wont get any from pp.
Just take both, advisors and PP bonus.
Money is not important, it's just a way. Majority of the nations, even the opm, you can refill debts and make a positive economy in less than 10 years with wars.
@@Papyjulio Keep in mind that the video is not made for EU4 players, not good EU4 players specifically, this is for the average player who can't have a decent economy at 10 with Aachen.
Ming struggles to get PP early in a game, with only Ashikaga as valid rival. But with enormous Ming income it probably wouldn't be much.
Yeah true but even with a Humiliation war they cannot get over 50 PP so every point counts
It seems that, unlike the trade conflict or independence 'casus belli', paradox forgot to force you to press demands and restrict taking land with this support rebels🤣.
"I'm going to support your rebellion by conquering your country"
1.5 speed for this video is a godsend lmao
Can you get CB againts byzantium like that? Can it upgrade the meta of typical no CB byza to weaken ottomans start?
I mostly use support rebbels after I lose a war as sometimes it gives me back a few privinces...
@TheStudent quick question, that thing with cb works only wen you are supporting rebels that fire? In my swiss game I didn't get cb when I was just supporting. Also I wonder if that method works when you want to get an achievement to supporting rebels in the other country
ok I listened video more and it seems to be like that, sorry, sunday hangover, but I will leave that comment anyway
No worries XD
Everything clear now about the Rebel Support?
@@thestudentYT sounds clear, but I'm gonna check this out tommorow xd as we say in Poland, old age is not a pleasurement and I think I should recover myself before starting some thinking processes xD
Is it possible to use this strategy to won ottomans as Byzantium?hm
recently in a spain game england converted back to catholicism for some reason so i kept trying to support anglican zealots so that they would convert and i would get the PU but it never worked, they didn't have 50% anglican provinces even on the second time i attacked after enforcing the tolerance of heathens modifier
Then it wasn't a Problem of the Enforce Rebel Mechanic right?
@@thestudentYT nope, just the first time I've used the mechanic. At least i got 2 achievements out of it
kinda miss the "hello there" 😭
did we just find a way to bypass the 'no' part of no-cb byz?
For example
The ability to potentially sabotage a nations mil tech is priceless
13:20 Hunting Accident fodder.
But she was 13 already ... a Hunting accident would probably be as lucky as winning the lottery at this point xd
@@thestudentYT So I'm incredibly unlucky, I never get it with young people, always from 15 onwards.
I always waited until I could get the Era score to get claims on claims to take land in Ireland in order to invade England, this will make it much more viable to invade England without building a massive navy in the early game 😂
And you'll never catch me doing a no cb on Byz anymore.
Wow, its great video
Nice video
Could you as France use French separatists against England and get all core territories plus 100 war score to spend?
Yes and No: You can do that but you need 50% Warscore for enforcing Rebel demands so you would get all your cores with that 50% warscore and then you would have additional 50% warscore left
Ok cool
Thank you for this video, I allways wanted people to understand. That playing a full on Diplo game is possible with support rebels and then Diplo vassalising them. It's a 0 AE game!!!
There is just one cost you didn't really put up the spotlight and that is the diplomats, it costs a year worth of a diplomats time for that. Normal you would use him for other things such as allies, vassal loyalty, curry favors, and claims. That is all not possible in the time span of one year you are using him to build up a spynetwork for pp.
Kind of... but you only need the monthticks for the spynetwork so you can use the diplomats between that (and also Scotland has 3 diplomats anyways)
I don't remember this, is this new?
now here's the big question will eu4 see this as something that needs to be patched probably not (i hope)
Definetly Not... PDX actually even buffed this Support Rebels Mechanic several Times in the last 2 Years. 2 Years ago you needed 60 spynetwork instead of 30 and before the rework of the ideas espionage ideas only gave +50% Support Rebel efficiency instead of the +100% that it gives right now... Also it is still not Overpowered or something... it is just not useless XD
thanks 🤗@@thestudentYT
Actually, they already had nerfed it hugely once.
Many, many, many years I ago I used Support Rebels in my Three Mountains campaign. Immediately afterwards, they disallowed you from using unjustified demands in the Support Rebels casus belli, citing that they didn't intend the CB to be used in these kind of ways.
I'm glad to see they changed it back.
Thank you so much for your videos 🫶❤
I use it If I can't fabricate a claim I always use it to enter Asia Africa and more its cool
big brain moment
Hey can someone tell me what graphic mod he is using ?
Video Description
@@thestudentYT thx
Ah yes, the cold war strategy
I tried supporting rebels one time, and it got stuck on 100%, do you know why?
Yeah the problem is that the rebels still can only rise up if at least one of their Provinces has at least some (>0) Unrest... that's why you should always try to go for seperatist rebels of newly conquered land or to get mil access for a few months and send an army to their lands to see their Provinces and their Unrest
@@thestudentYT I see, weird that you are able to support them if there is no unrest.
i didn't even know you get pp from privateering... i have almost 4k hours in this game...
wow good tip....I never supported rebels...
I miss back when rebel used to be a useful mechanic to break other countries.
supporting rebels can actually be incredibly hilarious, you just usually need to pay attention to other countriess internal situations to best use it, and who cares about foreign relations, am i right? ha ha! im an american.
I have been living in lies...
Rip no cb
Haha, I guess
wtf with this epirus win war against tur?
Is a Vassal
I got many provinces from nationalist
*Should've used USA or Russia or israel or France for explaining the support rebel mechanic, this was such a massive missed opportunity*
Why would those Nations be better examples?
@@thestudentYTIt's a joke