I can understand why rapid public charging is more expensive than 7kw home charging, but when it's around 30p in Europe then at 70per are being royally ripped off!
We are with Octopus. The EV rate is 7p night but 24p daytime. We currently pay 21p throughout which is cheaper for us. It pays to look at usage profile as well as tariff.
@@geoffmansfield2668 If you can’t charge at home, you have to use the public charging network. They may have cheaper times, but who wants to get up in the middle of the night to charge. I have an EV and charge at home, but can still see why if you can’t charge at home, one of the main EV benefits is not available to you.
Problem with charging at home without ev tariff that I can see is the electricity provider thinks all of it is for appliances. So your usage profile is huge. But I didn’t know that and whenever I charged at home I would make a one off payment to octopus to cover the extra use. That was not taken into account and had to adjust my direct debit manually but it’s silly that they can’t figure that out through the payment interface.
I use Scottish Power EV tarrif... 7p. The public chargers are 79p+ are a complete rip off and counterproductive. I will NOT use a charger that costs more than 50p(tesla are usually good) unless i'm close to breakdown. I also advise people not to get an EV unless they can charge at home. Many public chargers cost more per mile than petrol.
Dave, what you are describing is the "marginal pricing system" which was introduced years ago: "When reviewing the electricity market arrangements in 2022, the Government said the marginal cost pricing system provides an efficient signal for supply and demand decisions, is transparent and incentivises costs to be kept down" (House of Commons Library). There may have been good reasons for this 10 or 15 years ago, but the cost of installing and generating renewable energy has dropped dramatically over the years. For instance in 2000 UK wind cost £0.13/kWh installed capacity, in 2022 UK wind cost £0.03/kWh installed capacity. I believe there is currently a review into energy pricing. Octopus Energy, among others having been lobbying for change for a long time. Yes off peak charging is an excellent way to even out demand for EV's. This is available for home charging from many electricity suppliers, but thin on the ground for public charging. Many domestic UK customers also have solar and batteries installed for the benefits you describe and it is rather perplexing why the charging industry is not doing this as well.
Our business premises is being charged £33.53 per DAY standing charge because it is the only 3 phase supplied building in the area. It’s crazy how the electricity companies get away with it and nothing we can do about it.
I sense the goverment are not motivated to do much on this issue. The public health issues demand urgent action but they are very slow to react. So I think it is going to be down to public pressure and people like you. so thankyou
Thanks Dave for blowing the lid off this one. Although you managed to get through the video without mentioning the important role BEV can make. Currently there are over 1 million BEV on the road in the UK. In 10 years time probably over 20 million. The average car is idle for 90% of its time sitting with a significant charge in its battery. With vehicle to grid capability, this power can be tapped to balance the grid, first locally starting with your own home and then to the substation and the grid. Only 5 kilowatts needs to be taken from each vehicle,to be replaced later when power is plentiful. Again with a planned 1 million new homes over the next 5 years, all should be supplied with battery storage to run the home, the heat pump and balance the grid. It would be at a nominal extra sum to the overall building cost. The future is renewables.
Fuel of any type will never be cheap it's not in any governments DNA no matter what is said, it's a captive audience begging to be exploited. Love the video of the wind farm with no props turning, sums it up nicely.
Possibly your best video Dave. As you get more subscribers you get more powerful! I’m on a similar mission via several energy Facebook Groups that I run, or am active in. (10,000s of us, Independent and no adverts or income. I run fair, everyone benefits, ‘join up friends’ schemes without receiving any income/commission or reward. I’d love to touch base.
More power to you Dave. I’m going to be using public charging as I don’t have a charger at home (apartment home), so will be losing money with each mile I drive (thanks to HMRCs recommended claim of 7p per mile for EVs).
Check for any nearby Tesla-free to all superchargers and how much it costs at off peak rates. It can be from 25-40p/Kwh. My friend charges at a supercharger after work for 20-25 minutes (afternoon shift) and still saves money.
@@chrishar110 I have, the cheapest charging near me and my workplace is 39p / kWh. So with HMRCs 7p claim limit, I will loose around 2.9p a mile even if I manage 4 miles / kWh.
@@stuartburns8657 I don’t regret the change to EV, just disappointed that the govt doesn’t recognise that not all EV owners can charge at home and is doing nothing about it. Reducing the VAT on public charging would be a good place to start if they are serious about going green
It’s scandalous how the government are not dealing with the issue probably because of the tax we pay. The consumer has no choice or very little this needs a investigation to final stop this corrupt practice. Spain currently can’t give away Electricity due to its solar investments. It’s also why government won’t support massive discounts to solar investments fear of consumers no longer need these energy suppliers suggest team up with Martin Lewis
5 hours at 7.4kW would give you 37kWh. That would give me around 150 miles at 4miles/kWh. I'm guessing you use a granny charger, or you have a very inefficient EV.
@@rugbygirlsdadg depends on your car. My MG4 SE SR has a 6.6kW onboard charger, giving a real 6.4/6.5kW charging rate (into the battery). So 5 hours at that rate would give about 32 kWh. Still giving way more than 40 miles though. 🙂
You might be interested to see this charging hub on the A5 between Milton Keynes and Dunstable in Bedfordshire. Its been open a few months and has a large industrial wind turbine on site supplying it. Not aware of any batteries but certainly generating its own electricity - Fuuse Charging Station, Leighton Buzzard LU7 9LG
Is that the AW Energy site with the Starbucks? I charge on occasion. 158kW Chargers @ 39p per kWh, making it on par with Tesla chargers without need of a membership. I heard they're looking to build other sites.
AW’s Checkley Wood charging station uses a wind turbine to supply power bringing the charge down to £0.39 per kWh. It also has a facility for LCVs and is planning on introducing a bus charging facility. Nb there is Starbucks there also.
@@michaelmcnally2331Electricity prices are probably not the major factor. Consider charger unit costs (maybe north of £50k ea), plus grid connection, land rental, back office, maintenance, financial admin, software development (those wretched apps!), servers, staff, etc. Also loans to be serviced. Then there's VAT. But it's also about what the market will accept. Electricity prices may just be an excuse.
Great video, Dave, though I have a cynical idea into why OFTHEM, the energy cartel and the government won't take up this idea anytime soon: Taxes. If the price of electricity drops, so does the tax receipts. It makes absolute sense to remove gas generator peakers with battery and renewables but with the lack of investment in the UK and the government struggling to fix the economy with the appalling employer NI tax increase, such a large undertaking won't likely happen.
Dave, I have asked you several times to calculate the OPEX and CAPEX for a fast charging station. You will be surprised how much a CPO should/would be asking for each kWh. You always forget all the costs associated with a charging station. You can better.
Tesla charges as low as 26p per kWh, BP charges as high as 85p. Explain the difference in the OPEX and CAPEX of running a 40 bay supercharger @ 250kW vs a 4 bay BP hub at 50kW please.
@@davetakesiton - oddly it was BP and Shell that instigate the high pricing culture of rapid/ultra-rapid chargers in the UK. Perhaps this has squeezed the pure-play charging companies to follow suit to fund their growth to keep up with BP/Shells deployments to prevent them cornering the market. One could nake an educated guess that BP/Shell are seeking for their charging operations not to displace their fossil-fuel business revenues. Tesla use a different approach and can use overall cross business growth to help support their charging network growth, so seek to reduce rates to attract charging custom. No other automaker, outside of China, is doing this rather they're seeking tie-ups with charging operators, nor are any automakers, again outside of China, are in the battery storage business. Hopefully, and assuming monopolies don't form from any further consolidation in the charging marketplace, that competition will cause prices to fall more in line with the cost of electricity. However, as with fossil-fuels this is not something the government, of any persuation, tend to get involved in, leaving it to the market to resolve. Such would come under the Competition and Market Authority's mandate, rather than being a transport (DfT) or energy (DESNZ) responsibility, so would require slow and complex cross government body policy (and budgetary) agreements.
Dave, oddly it was BP and Shell that instigated the high pricing culture of rapid/ultra-rapid chargers in the UK. Perhaps this has squeezed the pure-play charging companies to follow suit to fund their growth to keep up with BP/Shells deployments to prevent them cornering the market. One could make an educated guess that BP/Shell are seeking for their charging operations not to displace their fossil-fuel business revenues. Tesla use a different approach and can use overall cross business growth to help support their charging network growth, so seek to reduce rates to attract charging custom. No other automaker, outside of China, is doing this rather they're seeking tie-ups with charging operators, nor are any automakers, again outside of China, are in the battery storage business. Hopefully, and assuming monopolies don't form from any further consolidation in the charging marketplace, that competition will cause prices to fall more in line with the cost of electricity. However, as with fossil-fuels this is not something the government, of any persuation, tend to get involved in, leaving it to the market to resolve. Such would come under the Competition and Market Authority's mandate, rather than being a transport (DfT) or energy (DESNZ) responsibility, so would require slow and complex cross government body policy (and budgetary) agreements.
once the energy supplier networks start building electricity battery storage hubs across the country en mass, the gas generators largely wont be needed.
ive been asking about this for ages Dave. there is a cost for building any type of infrastructure, whethere it's a petrol station or EV station. So why are the costs so disparate between consumer electricity and commercial EV charging station prices
i asked my MP to raise why electricty is matched to the cost of gas, when we are near a tipping point regards how the electricty is now being produced most days. it's only a matter of time that the generation cost is unlocked from Gas.!
if the experience is any similar to Australia the cost of actually installing Public charges and running them that’s not just the cost of electricity but the cost of employing Support staff in a call Centre does add to the cost. At the end of the day if it’s keeping relative costparity to petrol, I think that’s the best you can hope for.
Charge point operators not all seem to be planning for the long term. They need to be needed. I am currently on a 500 mile round trip over 3 days in an EV with 180 miles range in this cold weather. If in future, my next EV had a bigger range I would be doing 1 change on the road not 3. As EV batteries improve I can see charger availablity being more of a problem. If away from home charging was relatively cheap, I may be more tempted to buy a small range car in future. If they change too much to change, I want my next car to deliver more range from my 7p home charger.
I agree public charger generally is far too expensive. I think the reason for this is 2 fold. Firstly because often there is no competition. Secondly the CPO wants to get a return on its investment as quick as possible before the market forces them to reduce prices. Once the market is saturated that will force them to rethink their prices. In the meantime you can shop around. Have a look at Tesla and Ionity on a subscription. The subscription can be for 1 month so you are not tied in. With both of these your charging should work out at less than 50p kWH. Still a little expensive but much cheaper than the extortionate prices others charge.
It seems to me that most charge point operators try to set the price so it matches gas prices. Also they try to make it as complicated as possible to make sure that the customers will be unable to see who is the cheapest at that charge location, first by not showing a big sign with price/kWh and then by having different prices depending on subscriptions and time of day. (Tesla is guilty at this as well for non Tesla cars) I have a Tesla and I wouldn't attempt to charge at any other charger unless I am forced to do it in which case I would only charge just enough to get to the next SC or home
You need 100 per cent reliable power. As you say what happens when your PV and wind farms arent producing? You gotta have some redundancy. Also the actual "cash" margins on something as cheap as 7p need to be higher to pay for the installions. In NZ we have a very high proportion of hydro. But we still have gas and even one coal plant.We buy our coal from indonesia even though we used to fire that coal plant with our own coal. Our gas reserves are running out. We have a a growing wind proportion. But lakes can "run out" wind may not blow. There is also the question of the grid itself which of course the consumer pays for
Nation Grid Plc is not public anymore it was privatised on October 1st 2024. Now known as National Energy System Opperator, part of the new government's state owned energy company they are developing. The new company has a mandate to develop the grid that's been under invested in for years to upgrade the grid to allow more clean power sources onto the UK grid and to then bring down prices.
Energy was privatised in 1986 and the Central Electricity Generating Board was privatised in 1990 and in 1995 shares in National Grid PLC went on sale. Last year the privatised national grid sold off a huge chunk for billions to several private equity and investment funds.
@@davetakesiton - Indeed the NG is a public limited company, it even runs the grid in other countries (including New York's in the USA). Lots of people are getting confused by the creation of NESO, September last year, which is a new nationalised organisation hived off from a section of National Grid plc (where it was previously a sub-company called 'National Grid ESO') combined with parts of OFGEM's previous market management responsibilities.
You've also missed the part about Drax getting stupid amounts of grant funding for inefficient, carbon capture. More backhanders between privatised companies and government no doubt.
With all the green energy being added to the grid, the costs are being added to the SC unfortunately. Curtailment costs thanks to limited grid design cost: 945m - 2022 779m - 2023 1 billion - 2024 With Labour accelerating permissions for Windfarms, and an increase in residential solar ( hello Mr. Duck curve!) I don't think it's unrealistic to expect 1.5 billion of curtailment charges in 2025.
Great video Dave, keep up the good work. Wind generation alone last year delivered more power to the grid than gas and coal combined. It's time to end the subsidies to power generators as the country becomes less reliant on fossil fuels. Put that money in to battery storage and we could easilty be fossil fuel free in under a decade. At the moment we are wasting free energy, the number of wind turbines turned off on windy days is almost criminal.
With all the green energy being added to the grid, the costs are being added to the SC unfortunately, which Solar of course doesn't mitigate. Curtailment costs thanks to limited grid design cost: 945m - 2022 779m - 2023 1 billion - 2024 With Labour accelerating permissions for Windfarms, and an increase in residential solar ( hello Mr. Duck curve!) I don't think it's unrealistic to expect 1.5 billion of curtailment charges in 2025.
@@stuartburns8657 Wind power is the cheapest form of generation in the UK, much cheaper than gas or nuclear. We don't have a massive amount of solar although it is increasing.
My point stands David, in that counting on green energy to reduce bills in the short to medium term is optimistic at best. I'm all for it, but it will come at a cost. We need regional benefits for those creating the green power, and gas pricing decoupling from how it's priced. Neither are on the horizon, so even at present, if last month 99% of the uk's power was wind powered, but that 1% was gas derived, the whole 100% is charged at the more expensive gas rate. Unfortunately this is the only form of on demand energy we have left in the UK.
@@stuartburns8657 the green levy or whatever we now call it makes up roughly 8% of our bills. For me last year that was equivalent to roughly £125. If we were setting the price of a kWh by the cheapest form of energy which is wind then you would reduce your electricity bill by as much as 50% which could be several hundred of pounds. On top of that public EV charging would then be significantly cheaper. Yes it's not going to happen overnight but we need to get this price fixing sorted. Understandable when gas or coal were the main suppliers but they no longer are yet still we are held hostage to their prices.
You know,I agree with everything in this video I understand everything about it,but,,, there is always a but, what can we do about it? We are held at gun point the companies laughing at this keeps making loads of money.we use the power we can’t do without it we can’t get it anywhere else, it drives me nuts anything you wish to start , I am in
@@davetakesiton But your video seems to imply something different, that a high price cap automatically means high prices. The opposite is true, a price cap stops higher prices being passed on to the public
@@mavhc- the price cap also only applies to default (standard rate) tariffs, it's just energy suppliers use it as a tracker metric for their tailored tariffs so when the cap rises so tend all non-fixed term tariffs by a similar increase amount.
There is a Charging Hub under construction at Three Maids Hill Winchester. 44 rapid chargers, a service block for drivers, a solar farm and battery storage. A large part of the delay in building has been down to local planning objections, which of course put up the costs. I think Dave has no idea of buillding costs, or the price of the charging equipment itself, or perhaps the needs of the money market that is financing the various projects. It would be nice for a time of day price at the pumps, it will come in time, but initially we are stuck with the system put in place by 'Legacy' Governments. A couple of days ago I charged at 35 pence per KwH, the price paid by the Council that provided the chargers . Electricity from wind is not Free, it takes expensive machinery to produce. I was speaking to a windgenerator owner in Scotland a few years ago, his simple generator cost him £60k with a payback time of over 4 years, even after a leage government subsidy.
Private Equity gotta get there money back. Said it too many times, it's the biggest adoption hurdle, now some approximation of 2nd hand ice to ev parity has been achieved. If your ice does 40+ mpg, it's hardly a saving when the zappmap svg is 55p kwh
Good points Dave! Corruption everywhere…. especially government mandates! EV uptake will always be a niche for those with deep pockets, ability to home charge and able to take tax rebates. Most likely those installing EV chargers are on a tax incentive and rather people don’t use them as they will most likely just break… and that will cost them to fix 😮. Who thinks up this madness 😊
Surely if the goverment approve the use of V2G we can eliminate the need for the gas power plants to fill the gap when the sun doesnt sine or the wind stops blowing, our cars can cover those peak requirents and we can get paid for it and when there is excessive power we can charge our cars chaaply.. why is this taking so long?
I've just heard today that the current gov has just declared that the requirement to install heat pump - instead of conventional gas boilers - in all new home builds after 2035 has been totally scrapped. For all time. Even Rishi Sunak only dared water it down - requiring 80% compliance. That should tell you all that is needed about current gov true intentions towards all things net zero - EVs included. And I'm a Labour party member. Maybe for not much longer
@stuartburns8657 Agile is based on the next day market rates, per half hour. It's all very clear as to how Agile pricing is based. What's wrong is the UK's marginal energy pricing structure.
@djtaylorutube Yes, that true, but also those rates are based on an excess of green energy. So it's cheaper to offer good rates (or the occasional free hour or two) than pay curtailment fees
@stuartburns8657 Yes absolutely. I can generally charge when it's free or even I get paid to charge. If I'm charging at above 3p then it's a bad day. :)
@@djtaylorutube I salute that. You are a home + driveway owning EV owner of course. 2025 will be a hard sell for those not part of your own demographic, ie forced to public charge, and if there old ice got 40+ mpg, it likely costs more :( Put it this way, if you know a lot of EV owners in person, how many CAN'T either home or destination charge cheaply?
1) you can't compare the cost of DC charging with home charging. As someone has already pointed out, it would cost a bomb. 2) with public AC charging, you need to install a payment network and if it's more than 7.4kW, again as someone has previously pointed out, you'd need to have 3-phase power installed, whoch could cost several thousand pounds. What would help, would be to charge vat at domestic level of 5% rather than 20%.
as Dave pointed out, if tesco wanted to build a new petrol station, the cost would be factored into its fuel pricing. However, i would love to see the costing analysis breakdown of installing a typical chargin hub and its break even point (value. ) its likely only 2 to 3 years on a reasonably used site. the CPO's are definitely making a huge mark up on the cost of the actual electricity. they shouldnt be charging anything like what they are. pricing eneds somesort of cap, until such times that it is detagged to gas generating prices.
Well done and good luck, but as we all suspected, were being exploited. As the government are three steps ahead of us, are we simply being herded onto electric so we can be better controlled or exploited? Why isn't anything just honest and straightforward?
That's ok as a basic, ballpark, figure. Depends how many mpg you got from an ICE and the equivalent mi/kWh from an EV. Somewhere between 40-60p/kWh is probably comparable. 85p/kWh isn't!
People always forget to add the charging losses when calculating cost per mile. Next time you visit a charger look how much energy you have been charged for vs how much your battery has taken. You also need to take into consideration the cost of energy to pre heat the battery.
40p is too low these days, might have been the case a few years back when miles/kWh were lower. With today's average EV (3.4miles/kWh) the parity point 60p per kWh, or for the average long-range EV (4.2miles/kWh) its 71p. This is based on usage calculations with real-world efficiency and mpg figures, inclusive of tax impacts.
Hi Dave enjoy most of your broadcasts but... Please balance your EV stance IE wind & solar are free, I agree and get your point but I'm sure you agree they need to pay for the very expensive infrastructure? And yes most of the wind & solar sites are owned - funded by PLC, hedge funds etc but a bit of balance will help my OCD, a happy Ioniq 5 owner Vince
Imagine if pre-EV, driveway owns paid 40p a litre for fuel, but the driveway-less paid £1.40! Two-tier have and have not pricing system will hold back adoption
@@RuislipResident-v7p I see your point, but pre-ev they'd all pay the same for fuel wouldn't they? I'm not bemoaning different social statuses, it will always remain a thing obviously, but the current two-tier is another layer of financial pain on those who can least afford it
The cost comparitor is the cost of public charging vs the cost fossil-fuel (per mile). The has been an uptick of those in the anti-EV world trying to stir up division or seek to set the mindset of those without off-street parking or with communial parking against EVs. Whilst there is disparity between public and home charging, aswell as by electric tariff or having home solar. The main consideration is that public charging for most should be cheaper than fossil-fuel. With a charging price of somewhere between 60p to 70p per kWh or lower, depending upon the efficiency of the EV, being the parity level.
There is a german company trailing "pop" communities. All the houses have solar and vety efficient set ups, but all extea the power made per house goes to a local "sub ststion", a batery battery ststion that just services the pod if houses. Aprarrently it works wery well, and rearlty the sub station needs to import power iff the grid. I think thid coudl be the future as it actually means there is just one main grid input for in pop. A pod of homes couod be as big as the batterys could handle. My house of 7 people 2 dogs, and a tortoise (15h heat bulb), uses an average of 8Kw a day. We sometiems almost hit 10, we are not tight on our power use, kids leave lights on all the itme, all night more times than i wish to admit, the oven and hob electric as is our shower. PCs, Laptops t,ablets, consoles and on and on. Oir gas is just hot warter and heating, which is next to nothing 10 minths of the year. Youd just have to add in future ev usage per household, im sire there is an algorithm to determing the amount. Including overheads for keepin 20-80% the najority if the time. Im thinking of getting a 15Kw battery and invertor for my house, and charging it over night on my ev plan. (I cant have solar cos in on the wrong side of a mountain). I only pulf my car in once or twcse a week, so pulling 8Kw into a house battery nightly isnt goign to tac the system. And i liek thf idea of living off 7p pwk electricity. Battries are really coming doen in peice. And lots of options. And invertor are a thrid of a price if you get thr direct from china, and alot are hogher hated than what we bay 3x more for here.
I'm not sure why you think renewable energy suppliers want to sell us really cheap electricity.They are businesses operating for the sole purpose of making as much profit as possible.Why would any business choose to make less profit ?
Great one Dave, it said what needed to be said and yes we need to change the way we are billed. Also why are green tariffs on electricity? They should be moved to gas that would also reduce electric costs. You do your best to let EV drivers know who are the cheaper charge companies and I am sure if we all stopped using the expensive oones, pricing would have to change.
Don't go to charge at the high price dispensers. Why can't they charge competitive rates as tesla networks. Good topic dave, hopefully we can get answers...
@@solentbum Tesla produces and stores electricity with their solar panels batteries and Megabatteries. They can copy Tesla if they want. German car manufacturers were laughing at Tesla, Chinese copied them and look at the result.
Your analysis that the energy market is rigged is accurate though perhaps you could have mentioned that gas determines the marginal price because renewables are intermittent and gas powerstations are favoured because they provide base load. However, this isn’t justification for continuing with the status quo. The installation of large batteries could mitigate the intermittency issues with renewables and will do very soon. Personally, I would move government subsides from large fossil fuel generators to community renewable generation. This would improve grid resilience in the long run and reduce the need for expensive new high voltage transmission infrastructure.
Even easier would be to just subsidise gas generated electricity and allow the renewables to sell at whatever price they choose. Renewables would boom, batteries would boom and Gas would then become our peaker plants, only for use in an emergency and in time phased out.
@davetakesiton yes, using gas to cover peak demand in the short-term is logical if you accept the principle of continuing subsidies for fossil fuels. But if community energy is to be delivered at scale by communities, for communities (which I believe it should in preference to large commercial renewable energy generation for profit), it needs subsidising, particularly in poorer parts of the country. Where better to get the money than from the fossil fuel industries? I believe these ought to be brought into public ownership and their profits paid as dividends to the public in the near term, before they phased out, at least for combustion.
This is a brilliant video descibing the mess our country is in with privatised energy companies raking in huge profits for their shareholeders, well played Dave!
Unfortunately as we have just swapped a Neoliberal government for a Neoliberal government who prioritise private business profits over people’s happiness (health and dignity) we won’t see any real changes.
Greg Jackson has been banging on about the same point for at least a year that I know of. He has suggested regional pricing: because why should Scotish, Welsh and Yorkshire power users have to subsidize eg Surrey and Middlesex users?
In the case of OFGEM they've pointed out that electricity pricing is out of date. Dave in the video missed a point that OFGEM is just the administrator they can only set using the electricity pricing framework, which is a set of rules issued by successive governments. Not sure why Dave called them out in the way he did, as they don't have the power to set prices, only the cap on standard rate tariffs following government rules. However, the pricing framework is now under review, with the new government and green energy generators and supplies are lobbying for the framework to change to allow lower cost renewables to determine the price where possible. Dave missed a point on taxation as well, focussing on the Climate Charge Levy for some reason, which applies to business electricity (so public charging) but not to domestic electricity which has separate tax elements. The thing with domestic electricity taxation is it's relatively high at 25% overall because it factors in collecting tax for all energy types, as virtually everyone has electricity but not everyone has naural gas (which is only taxed at 6% as a result).
You’re completely missing the point. The major cost is the grid connection. They are eye wateringly high. Its high by design by the government to offer cheap electricity bills to domestic users by charging a premium on industrial connection.
The wind is free, nobody pays for it. Power from wind could be very cheap but it's not in UK because some ''friends'' invested and want to make more money. Who are they? Easy to find but not easy to tell.
@@chrishar110 Really ? I think its called "Engineering"... yes there is a group of the same people behind installing these things which don't work and they are getting hyped, along with "Political C02" nonsense, then useful idiots who talk about it all the time.
What are you on about, wind is the cheapest major generation source in the UK, has been for years. It's just domestically the way the UKs electricity pricing framework is that it is based on the most expensive generating source at any point in time, which haopens to be the cost of natural gas generation (particularly peaker plants). This is why green energy suppliers are pushing for change, to a refuonal pricing model so those areas without gas generation can get lower electricity prices.
@GruffSillyGoat it was only during the peak of war that gas was highest, very short time. They usually include on top of the gas price quotes the extra tax so its not actually the real cost. I can see you are really quite delusional about this... if you are interested in a different more factual view check out "Paul Burgess" and others. But I think your quite stock in this way of thinking and not really interested ?
@@ndudman8 - nothing to do with the war, this is the way the UKs electricity pricing framework functions, its based on the wholesale price of the most expensive generating source (i.e. the price before taxes etc are applied).This has been the case for over a decade. As to authoritative source, well this is what the government, OFGEM, the energy suppliers and generators all state, and has been the subject of economic studies by universities.
You can understand how a government that could give the UK such a terrible system night also support Brexit. Why don't you vote in someone who will fix it?
@@davetakesiton My comment may have been poorly worded; I was in no way blaming the issue on Brexit. We have a similar issue here in Ontario where a "profit-motive" government sold off a toll highway and the electricity grid. Now successive governments (even of the same party) are dealing with the fallout of those bad decisions.
This is what's really happening with EV's. This guy speaks facts with nearly 3 million subscribers. th-cam.com/video/KiyMBly0lWI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qnPJHVoaAnQGX557
Imagine if pre-EV, driveway owns paid 40p a litre for fuel, but the driveway-less paid £1.40! Two-tier have and have not pricing system will hold back adoption
You can't really make a direct comparison. If you did have more public chargers at 7kW then it would probably have to be at 30p+ per kWh (and some are currently around 40p). This wouldn't really satisfy the national public charging network. Now, if you were to install a rapid DC charger at home then the cost would be much higher as you'd need 3-phase or large battery banks (and possibly both). These come at a cost and it would be unrealistic to write this off as most people do with a 7kW charger (i know you could use a granny charger for very little capital outlay). Also, public equipment usually has to be much more robust than domestic equipment and probably has a much shorter lifespan. So, there is never going to be price parity. What we need is a cheaper public charging network and that will almost certainly happen as more people start to use them and there is greater competition. Supermarkets could be the key to this for those that can't charge at home.
More Dave Gets It Wrong than takes it on. Somewhat pedantic errors in the previous video but this one gets it wrong on the important stuff. There is an issue that CPOs should have more variable rate pricing but the understanding of the wholesale electricity market isn't just simplistic...it's wrong.
indeed, not how the markets work at all. A simple google search gives a more insightful explanation and a history of the power pipes paid in the market, over £580/mw at its peak in Sept 2022. The wholesale electricity market is where electricity is bought and sold before it is delivered to consumers. The main participants in the wholesale electricity market are generators and suppliers. Here are some key things to know about the wholesale electricity market: Price The price of electricity in the wholesale market is based on a number of factors, including the cost of fuel, demand, carbon taxes, and the availability of resources like wind and sun. The price can fluctuate throughout the day. Volatility The wholesale electricity market is highly volatile because of the many variables that impact it, including supply and demand. This means that prices can change dramatically over short periods of time. Suppliers Suppliers buy electricity from generators at wholesale prices, then add a mark-up and sell it to customers at a higher price. Consumers Consumers don't usually deal directly with wholesale energy costs, but these costs do affect the retail prices they pay to their energy supplier. National pricing In Great Britain, the wholesale electricity market uses a system called national pricing, which means that there is one price for wholesale electricity across the country at any given time. Futures market Electricity is often traded as a commodity in the futures market, where producers, consumers, and traders can buy and sell contracts for the future delivery of electricity.
@@jonathandurman2729- I would add that the UK (as does Norway and Poland) uses a capacity market rather than a financial based futures market. The UK runs reverse auctions to contract for a defined capacity level, in which it offers the generator a guaranteed (up to maximum) price for the electricity generated for an agreed duration (typically 15 years for generation). This differs to futures markets (like operated in Germany) that assumes the market will build capacity to meet a future demand on the basis of financial market drivers solely.
@@steverichmond7142 Does it really require a flat earther Creationist Christian to point out the absolute absurdity of your claim and that gas is used to generate electricity, while your delusional and toxic batteries would store the electricity generated by something useful?! You can’t store what you refuse to produce. Batteries are an issue now as there’s nothing the national grid can do when there’s no wind, no sunshine and people want to watch the hideous news and other fictional rubbish on TV, while sipping their tea.
Wind turbines don't run for free: The annual operating and maintenance (O&M) cost of a wind turbine depends on its power output and other factors. For example, a 100 kW turbine might cost £8,000 per year to run, while a 4.26 MW turbine might cost £251,000 per year
@davetakesiton you did, I apologise, and although you mentioned maintenance and support, I don't think I'm being too pedantic here. Then you factor in the raising curtailment costs (expected to hit 1.5 billion by 2035) they are certainly not free!
I can understand why rapid public charging is more expensive than 7kw home charging, but when it's around 30p in Europe then at 70per are being royally ripped off!
Good luck with your mission! We need more people challenging this ludicrous situation!
We are with Octopus. The EV rate is 7p night but 24p daytime. We currently pay 21p throughout which is cheaper for us. It pays to look at usage profile as well as tariff.
What about the two-tier poor sods who don't own a driveway?
What tariff ? Before we moved to Intelligent Go we were on Flexible and that was 29.6p in the day.
@@stuartburns8657please explain you point
@@geoffmansfield2668 If you can’t charge at home, you have to use the public charging network.
They may have cheaper times, but who wants to get up in the middle of the night to charge.
I have an EV and charge at home, but can still see why if you can’t charge at home, one of the main EV benefits is not available to you.
Problem with charging at home without ev tariff that I can see is the electricity provider thinks all of it is for appliances.
So your usage profile is huge.
But I didn’t know that and whenever I charged at home I would make a one off payment to octopus to cover the extra use. That was not taken into account and had to adjust my direct debit manually but it’s silly that they can’t figure that out through the payment interface.
I use Scottish Power EV tarrif... 7p. The public chargers are 79p+ are a complete rip off and counterproductive. I will NOT use a charger that costs more than 50p(tesla are usually good) unless i'm close to breakdown. I also advise people not to get an EV unless they can charge at home. Many public chargers cost more per mile than petrol.
Nice one, Dave! Looking forward to seeing and hearing how you get on with your campaign to improve charging infrastructure.
Dave, what you are describing is the "marginal pricing system" which was introduced years ago: "When reviewing the electricity market arrangements in 2022, the Government said the marginal cost pricing system provides an efficient signal for supply and demand decisions, is transparent and incentivises costs to be kept down" (House of Commons Library). There may have been good reasons for this 10 or 15 years ago, but the cost of installing and generating renewable energy has dropped dramatically over the years.
For instance in 2000 UK wind cost £0.13/kWh installed capacity, in 2022 UK wind cost £0.03/kWh installed capacity.
I believe there is currently a review into energy pricing. Octopus Energy, among others having been lobbying for change for a long time.
Yes off peak charging is an excellent way to even out demand for EV's. This is available for home charging from many electricity suppliers, but thin on the ground for public charging. Many domestic UK customers also have solar and batteries installed for the benefits you describe
and it is rather perplexing why the charging industry is not doing this as well.
Our business premises is being charged £33.53 per DAY standing charge because it is the only 3 phase supplied building in the area. It’s crazy how the electricity companies get away with it and nothing we can do about it.
I sense the goverment are not motivated to do much on this issue.
The public health issues demand urgent action but they are very slow to react.
So I think it is going to be down to public pressure and people like you. so thankyou
Thanks Dave for blowing the lid off this one. Although you managed to get through the video without mentioning the important role BEV can make. Currently there are over 1 million BEV on the road in the UK. In 10 years time probably over 20 million. The average car is idle for 90% of its time sitting with a significant charge in its battery. With vehicle to grid capability, this power can be tapped to balance the grid, first locally starting with your own home and then to the substation and the grid. Only 5 kilowatts needs to be taken from each vehicle,to be replaced later when power is plentiful. Again with a planned 1 million new homes over the next 5 years, all should be supplied with battery storage to run the home, the heat pump and balance the grid. It would be at a nominal extra sum to the overall building cost. The future is renewables.
Fuel of any type will never be cheap it's not in any governments DNA no matter what is said, it's a captive audience begging to be exploited. Love the video of the wind farm with no props turning, sums it up nicely.
Possibly your best video Dave. As you get more subscribers you get more powerful!
I’m on a similar mission via several energy Facebook Groups that I run, or am active in. (10,000s of us, Independent and no adverts or income. I run fair, everyone benefits, ‘join up friends’ schemes without receiving any income/commission or reward.
I’d love to touch base.
More power to you Dave. I’m going to be using public charging as I don’t have a charger at home (apartment home), so will be losing money with each mile I drive (thanks to HMRCs recommended claim of 7p per mile for EVs).
Not the best move then was it?
Was your old ice only 15mlg or something?
Check for any nearby Tesla-free to all superchargers and how much it costs at off peak rates. It can be from 25-40p/Kwh. My friend charges at a supercharger after work for 20-25 minutes (afternoon shift) and still saves money.
@chrishar110 that is good but very situational depending on your lifestyle and working pattern etc
@@chrishar110 I have, the cheapest charging near me and my workplace is 39p / kWh. So with HMRCs 7p claim limit, I will loose around 2.9p a mile even if I manage 4 miles / kWh.
@@stuartburns8657 I don’t regret the change to EV, just disappointed that the govt doesn’t recognise that not all EV owners can charge at home and is doing nothing about it. Reducing the VAT on public charging would be a good place to start if they are serious about going green
It’s scandalous how the government are not dealing with the issue probably because of the tax we pay. The consumer has no choice or very little this needs a investigation to final stop this corrupt practice. Spain currently can’t give away Electricity due to its solar investments. It’s also why government won’t support massive discounts to solar investments fear of consumers no longer need these energy suppliers suggest team up with Martin Lewis
Yes Martin Lewis, good point!
Great video Dave, keep up the good work knock on some doors
As of the 5th of January 25 i am getting 5 hours of free electricity on Sunday from 11 am to 4 pm enough for 40 free miles in my EV.
Who is that with?
British Gas
5 hours at 7.4kW would give you 37kWh. That would give me around 150 miles at 4miles/kWh. I'm guessing you use a granny charger, or you have a very inefficient EV.
@@rugbygirlsdadg depends on your car. My MG4 SE SR has a 6.6kW onboard charger, giving a real 6.4/6.5kW charging rate (into the battery). So 5 hours at that rate would give about 32 kWh. Still giving way more than 40 miles though. 🙂
@@rugbygirlsdadg yes I have a Tough leads granny charger
You might be interested to see this charging hub on the A5 between Milton Keynes and Dunstable in Bedfordshire. Its been open a few months and has a large industrial wind turbine on site supplying it. Not aware of any batteries but certainly generating its own electricity - Fuuse Charging Station, Leighton Buzzard LU7 9LG
Is that the AW Energy site with the Starbucks? I charge on occasion. 158kW Chargers @ 39p per kWh, making it on par with Tesla chargers without need of a membership. I heard they're looking to build other sites.
Yes completely and utterly
AW’s Checkley Wood charging station uses a wind turbine to supply power bringing the charge down to £0.39 per kWh. It also has a facility for LCVs and is planning on introducing a bus charging facility. Nb there is Starbucks there also.
Currently with octopus intelligent go it's 36p per kwh. This is one of my go to chargers
My local EVPoint charging point has put up it's prices from 65p to 75p per KWh!
Well electricity prices just gone up as well domestically so business rate electricity will have gone up as well
@@michaelmcnally2331Electricity prices are probably not the major factor. Consider charger unit costs (maybe north of £50k ea), plus grid connection, land rental, back office, maintenance, financial admin, software development (those wretched apps!), servers, staff, etc. Also loans to be serviced. Then there's VAT. But it's also about what the market will accept. Electricity prices may just be an excuse.
🤫 that's not supposed to be narrative
Nice overview Dave. Good to have some reliable research - unlike the misleading comments often posted by certain Viking
Fossil “Fools” 😂🤣 Well done Dave. And good luck with your “mission”. This is the U.K. so don’t expect too much 😅
Great video, Dave, though I have a cynical idea into why OFTHEM, the energy cartel and the government won't take up this idea anytime soon: Taxes.
If the price of electricity drops, so does the tax receipts. It makes absolute sense to remove gas generator peakers with battery and renewables but with the lack of investment in the UK and the government struggling to fix the economy with the appalling employer NI tax increase, such a large undertaking won't likely happen.
Dave, I have asked you several times to calculate the OPEX and CAPEX for a fast charging station. You will be surprised how much a CPO should/would be asking for each kWh. You always forget all the costs associated with a charging station. You can better.
Tesla charges as low as 26p per kWh, BP charges as high as 85p. Explain the difference in the OPEX and CAPEX of running a 40 bay supercharger @ 250kW vs a 4 bay BP hub at 50kW please.
@@davetakesiton - oddly it was BP and Shell that instigate the high pricing culture of rapid/ultra-rapid chargers in the UK. Perhaps this has squeezed the pure-play charging companies to follow suit to fund their growth to keep up with BP/Shells deployments to prevent them cornering the market. One could nake an educated guess that BP/Shell are seeking for their charging operations not to displace their fossil-fuel business revenues.
Tesla use a different approach and can use overall cross business growth to help support their charging network growth, so seek to reduce rates to attract charging custom. No other automaker, outside of China, is doing this rather they're seeking tie-ups with charging operators, nor are any automakers, again outside of China, are in the battery storage business.
Hopefully, and assuming monopolies don't form from any further consolidation in the charging marketplace, that competition will cause prices to fall more in line with the cost of electricity. However, as with fossil-fuels this is not something the government, of any persuation, tend to get involved in, leaving it to the market to resolve. Such would come under the Competition and Market Authority's mandate, rather than being a transport (DfT) or energy (DESNZ) responsibility, so would require slow and complex cross government body policy (and budgetary) agreements.
Dave, oddly it was BP and Shell that instigated the high pricing culture of rapid/ultra-rapid chargers in the UK. Perhaps this has squeezed the pure-play charging companies to follow suit to fund their growth to keep up with BP/Shells deployments to prevent them cornering the market. One could make an educated guess that BP/Shell are seeking for their charging operations not to displace their fossil-fuel business revenues.
Tesla use a different approach and can use overall cross business growth to help support their charging network growth, so seek to reduce rates to attract charging custom. No other automaker, outside of China, is doing this rather they're seeking tie-ups with charging operators, nor are any automakers, again outside of China, are in the battery storage business.
Hopefully, and assuming monopolies don't form from any further consolidation in the charging marketplace, that competition will cause prices to fall more in line with the cost of electricity. However, as with fossil-fuels this is not something the government, of any persuation, tend to get involved in, leaving it to the market to resolve. Such would come under the Competition and Market Authority's mandate, rather than being a transport (DfT) or energy (DESNZ) responsibility, so would require slow and complex cross government body policy (and budgetary) agreements.
once the energy supplier networks start building electricity battery storage hubs across the country en mass, the gas generators largely wont be needed.
ive been asking about this for ages Dave. there is a cost for building any type of infrastructure, whethere it's a petrol station or EV station. So why are the costs so disparate between consumer electricity and commercial EV charging station prices
I thought our bills had a 25% subsidy on for green energy, is this no longer the case?
i asked my MP to raise why electricty is matched to the cost of gas, when we are near a tipping point regards how the electricty is now being produced most days. it's only a matter of time that the generation cost is unlocked from Gas.!
I really wouldn't hold either your breath or get you hopes up for the cheap net zero energy utopia you believe you'll be getting..
I'd like to see octopus get into the public charging market.
on a monthly subscription i pay 63p for BP Pulse. its even priced like that on the app.
if the experience is any similar to Australia the cost of actually installing Public charges and running them that’s not just the cost of electricity but the cost of employing Support staff in a call Centre does add to the cost. At the end of the day if it’s keeping relative costparity to petrol, I think that’s the best you can hope for.
Can you explain how "contracts for difference" fits into the pricing mechanism.
Read TH-cam energy price Poland 174 year(euro) , France 650....and Brits nearly 3 thousand pounds a year..... We are screwed😢
@@user-bz9cb8bp2y please copy and paste a link so I can read/see this article.
Charge point operators not all seem to be planning for the long term. They need to be needed. I am currently on a 500 mile round trip over 3 days in an EV with 180 miles range in this cold weather. If in future, my next EV had a bigger range I would be doing 1 change on the road not 3. As EV batteries improve I can see charger availablity being more of a problem. If away from home charging was relatively cheap, I may be more tempted to buy a small range car in future. If they change too much to change, I want my next car to deliver more range from my 7p home charger.
I agree public charger generally is far too expensive. I think the reason for this is 2 fold. Firstly because often there is no competition. Secondly the CPO wants to get a return on its investment as quick as possible before the market forces them to reduce prices.
Once the market is saturated that will force them to rethink their prices.
In the meantime you can shop around.
Have a look at Tesla and Ionity on a subscription. The subscription can be for 1 month so you are not tied in.
With both of these your charging should work out at less than 50p kWH. Still a little expensive but much cheaper than the extortionate prices others charge.
It seems to me that most charge point operators try to set the price so it matches gas prices.
Also they try to make it as complicated as possible to make sure that the customers will be unable to see who is the cheapest at that charge location, first by not showing a big sign with price/kWh and then by having different prices depending on subscriptions and time of day. (Tesla is guilty at this as well for non Tesla cars)
I have a Tesla and I wouldn't attempt to charge at any other charger unless I am forced to do it in which case I would only charge just enough to get to the next SC or home
top man Dave.. :-)
You need 100 per cent reliable power. As you say what happens when your PV and wind farms arent producing? You gotta have some redundancy. Also the actual "cash" margins on something as cheap as 7p need to be higher to pay for the installions. In NZ we have a very high proportion of hydro. But we still have gas and even one coal plant.We buy our coal from indonesia even though we used to fire that coal plant with our own coal. Our gas reserves are running out. We have a a growing wind proportion. But lakes can "run out" wind may not blow. There is also the question of the grid itself which of course the consumer pays for
Nation Grid Plc is not public anymore it was privatised on October 1st 2024. Now known as National Energy System Opperator, part of the new government's state owned energy company they are developing. The new company has a mandate to develop the grid that's been under invested in for years to upgrade the grid to allow more clean power sources onto the UK grid and to then bring down prices.
Nationalised not privatised
Energy was privatised in 1986 and the Central Electricity Generating Board was privatised in 1990 and in 1995 shares in National Grid PLC went on sale. Last year the privatised national grid sold off a huge chunk for billions to several private equity and investment funds.
@@davetakesiton - Indeed the NG is a public limited company, it even runs the grid in other countries (including New York's in the USA).
Lots of people are getting confused by the creation of NESO, September last year, which is a new nationalised organisation hived off from a section of National Grid plc (where it was previously a sub-company called 'National Grid ESO') combined with parts of OFGEM's previous market management responsibilities.
I'm with British Gas and my over night EV rate is 7p. Imagine if you had to pay ten quid a litre for petrol but only a pound if you filled up locally.
You've also missed the part about Drax getting stupid amounts of grant funding for inefficient, carbon capture.
More backhanders between privatised companies and government no doubt.
With all the green energy being added to the grid, the costs are being added to the SC unfortunately.
Curtailment costs thanks to limited grid design cost:
945m - 2022
779m - 2023
1 billion - 2024
With Labour accelerating permissions for Windfarms, and an increase in residential solar ( hello Mr. Duck curve!) I don't think it's unrealistic to expect 1.5 billion of curtailment charges in 2025.
Great video Dave, keep up the good work.
Wind generation alone last year delivered more power to the grid than gas and coal combined.
It's time to end the subsidies to power generators as the country becomes less reliant on fossil fuels.
Put that money in to battery storage and we could easilty be fossil fuel free in under a decade.
At the moment we are wasting free energy, the number of wind turbines turned off on windy days is almost criminal.
With all the green energy being added to the grid, the costs are being added to the SC unfortunately, which Solar of course doesn't mitigate.
Curtailment costs thanks to limited grid design cost:
945m - 2022
779m - 2023
1 billion - 2024
With Labour accelerating permissions for Windfarms, and an increase in residential solar ( hello Mr. Duck curve!) I don't think it's unrealistic to expect 1.5 billion of curtailment charges in 2025.
@@stuartburns8657 Wind power is the cheapest form of generation in the UK, much cheaper than gas or nuclear. We don't have a massive amount of solar although it is increasing.
My point stands David, in that counting on green energy to reduce bills in the short to medium term is optimistic at best.
I'm all for it, but it will come at a cost.
We need regional benefits for those creating the green power, and gas pricing decoupling from how it's priced.
Neither are on the horizon, so even at present, if last month 99% of the uk's power was wind powered, but that 1% was gas derived, the whole 100% is charged at the more expensive gas rate.
Unfortunately this is the only form of on demand energy we have left in the UK.
@@stuartburns8657 the green levy or whatever we now call it makes up roughly 8% of our bills.
For me last year that was equivalent to roughly £125.
If we were setting the price of a kWh by the cheapest form of energy which is wind then you would reduce your electricity bill by as much as 50% which could be several hundred of pounds.
On top of that public EV charging would then be significantly cheaper.
Yes it's not going to happen overnight but we need to get this price fixing sorted. Understandable when gas or coal were the main suppliers but they no longer are yet still we are held hostage to their prices.
@@MrDAVIDATKINI did a large reply to you last but it appears to have disappeared
here's a question for Dave if given the oppotunity would you be a guest speaker at the fully charged live shows
yep with pleasure
You know,I agree with everything in this video I understand everything about it,but,,, there is always a but, what can we do about it? We are held at gun point the companies laughing at this keeps making loads of money.we use the power we can’t do without it we can’t get it anywhere else, it drives me nuts anything you wish to start , I am in
The price cap is a maximum, not the price that's paid most of the time, eg when no gas is required
that's why it's called the price cap
@@davetakesiton But your video seems to imply something different, that a high price cap automatically means high prices. The opposite is true, a price cap stops higher prices being passed on to the public
@@mavhc- the price cap also only applies to default (standard rate) tariffs, it's just energy suppliers use it as a tracker metric for their tailored tariffs so when the cap rises so tend all non-fixed term tariffs by a similar increase amount.
There is a Charging Hub under construction at Three Maids Hill Winchester. 44 rapid chargers, a service block for drivers, a solar farm and battery storage. A large part of the delay in building has been down to local planning objections, which of course put up the costs. I think Dave has no idea of buillding costs, or the price of the charging equipment itself, or perhaps the needs of the money market that is financing the various projects.
It would be nice for a time of day price at the pumps, it will come in time, but initially we are stuck with the system put in place by 'Legacy' Governments.
A couple of days ago I charged at 35 pence per KwH, the price paid by the Council that provided the chargers .
Electricity from wind is not Free, it takes expensive machinery to produce. I was speaking to a windgenerator owner in Scotland a few years ago, his simple generator cost him £60k with a payback time of over 4 years, even after a leage government subsidy.
Private Equity gotta get there money back.
Said it too many times, it's the biggest adoption hurdle, now some approximation of 2nd hand ice to ev parity has been achieved.
If your ice does 40+ mpg, it's hardly a saving when the zappmap svg is 55p kwh
Good points Dave! Corruption everywhere…. especially government mandates! EV uptake will always be a niche for those with deep pockets, ability to home charge and able to take tax rebates. Most likely those installing EV chargers are on a tax incentive and rather people don’t use them as they will most likely just break… and that will cost them to fix 😮. Who thinks up this madness 😊
Surely if the goverment approve the use of V2G we can eliminate the need for the gas power plants to fill the gap when the sun doesnt sine or the wind stops blowing, our cars can cover those peak requirents and we can get paid for it and when there is excessive power we can charge our cars chaaply.. why is this taking so long?
I've just heard today that the current gov has just declared that the requirement to install heat pump - instead of conventional gas boilers - in all new home builds after 2035 has been totally scrapped. For all time. Even Rishi Sunak only dared water it down - requiring 80% compliance. That should tell you all that is needed about current gov true intentions towards all things net zero - EVs included. And I'm a Labour party member. Maybe for not much longer
My understanding is it’s only scrapped for existing homes but still applies to new homes.
All power to your arm Dave. Cheers
Octopus Agile tariff, we DO see these price changes and sometimes negative prices.
You understand why that is don't you?
@stuartburns8657 Agile is based on the next day market rates, per half hour. It's all very clear as to how Agile pricing is based. What's wrong is the UK's marginal energy pricing structure.
@djtaylorutube Yes, that true, but also those rates are based on an excess of green energy.
So it's cheaper to offer good rates (or the occasional free hour or two) than pay curtailment fees
@stuartburns8657 Yes absolutely. I can generally charge when it's free or even I get paid to charge. If I'm charging at above 3p then it's a bad day. :)
@@djtaylorutube I salute that. You are a home + driveway owning EV owner of course.
2025 will be a hard sell for those not part of your own demographic, ie forced to public charge, and if there old ice got 40+ mpg, it likely costs more :(
Put it this way, if you know a lot of EV owners in person, how many CAN'T either home or destination charge cheaply?
1) you can't compare the cost of DC charging with home charging. As someone has already pointed out, it would cost a bomb.
2) with public AC charging, you need to install a payment network and if it's more than 7.4kW, again as someone has previously pointed out, you'd need to have 3-phase power installed, whoch could cost several thousand pounds.
What would help, would be to charge vat at domestic level of 5% rather than 20%.
as Dave pointed out, if tesco wanted to build a new petrol station, the cost would be factored into its fuel pricing. However, i would love to see the costing analysis breakdown of installing a typical chargin hub and its break even point (value. ) its likely only 2 to 3 years on a reasonably used site. the CPO's are definitely making a huge mark up on the cost of the actual electricity. they shouldnt be charging anything like what they are. pricing eneds somesort of cap, until such times that it is detagged to gas generating prices.
also @dave ....VAT.... commercial ev charging is at commercal sales tax rate. home ev charging is NOT!!!
True but 7p per kWh add 20% Commercial VAT = less than 9p where does the other 70p average public charger price come from
Well done and good luck, but as we all suspected, were being exploited.
As the government are three steps ahead of us, are we simply being herded onto electric so we can be better controlled or exploited? Why isn't anything just honest and straightforward?
Anything over 40p per kw is more expensive than ICE. To get the 50% of the country that don’t have a driveway to switch the price needs to come down.
Not far off, I think Dave calculated it as 50p/kwh based on 3 miles/kw and £1.40/litre
That's ok as a basic, ballpark, figure. Depends how many mpg you got from an ICE and the equivalent mi/kWh from an EV. Somewhere between 40-60p/kWh is probably comparable. 85p/kWh isn't!
People always forget to add the charging losses when calculating cost per mile. Next time you visit a charger look how much energy you have been charged for vs how much your battery has taken. You also need to take into consideration the cost of energy to pre heat the battery.
@@ryanfacer I've done all of that, adding up what has been supplied over mileage driven and I am at 3.4p a mile.
40p is too low these days, might have been the case a few years back when miles/kWh were lower. With today's average EV (3.4miles/kWh) the parity point 60p per kWh, or for the average long-range EV (4.2miles/kWh) its 71p. This is based on usage calculations with real-world efficiency and mpg figures, inclusive of tax impacts.
Hi Dave enjoy most of your broadcasts but... Please balance your EV stance IE wind & solar are free, I agree and get your point but I'm sure you agree they need to pay for the very expensive infrastructure?
And yes most of the wind & solar sites are owned - funded by PLC, hedge funds etc but a bit of balance will help my OCD, a happy Ioniq 5 owner
Vince
Imagine if pre-EV, driveway owns paid 40p a litre for fuel, but the driveway-less paid £1.40!
Two-tier have and have not pricing system will hold back adoption
As soon as you use the term " two-tier" you've invalidated your argument 😂
@@ziggarilloSo if you are affluent to own a home with a driveway, vs those who can't, that ISN'T the definition of a two-tier system?
So like parking for free on your own drive or paying to park at a meter or purchasing a residents parking permit then.
@@RuislipResident-v7p I see your point, but pre-ev they'd all pay the same for fuel wouldn't they?
I'm not bemoaning different social statuses, it will always remain a thing obviously, but the current two-tier is another layer of financial pain on those who can least afford it
The cost comparitor is the cost of public charging vs the cost fossil-fuel (per mile). The has been an uptick of those in the anti-EV world trying to stir up division or seek to set the mindset of those without off-street parking or with communial parking against EVs.
Whilst there is disparity between public and home charging, aswell as by electric tariff or having home solar. The main consideration is that public charging for most should be cheaper than fossil-fuel. With a charging price of somewhere between 60p to 70p per kWh or lower, depending upon the efficiency of the EV, being the parity level.
Broken Britain, privatise profit, nationalise losses
It happens the last 4-500 years. Difficult to change it. You have to be richer than them, but then you will do it because you can.
Well done Dave! More 'power' to your elbow! As the saying goes.⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡⚡
There is a german company trailing "pop" communities. All the houses have solar and vety efficient set ups, but all extea the power made per house goes to a local "sub ststion", a batery battery ststion that just services the pod if houses.
Aprarrently it works wery well, and rearlty the sub station needs to import power iff the grid.
I think thid coudl be the future as it actually means there is just one main grid input for in pop. A pod of homes couod be as big as the batterys could handle.
My house of 7 people 2 dogs, and a tortoise (15h heat bulb), uses an average of 8Kw a day. We sometiems almost hit 10, we are not tight on our power use, kids leave lights on all the itme, all night more times than i wish to admit, the oven and hob electric as is our shower. PCs, Laptops t,ablets, consoles and on and on. Oir gas is just hot warter and heating, which is next to nothing 10 minths of the year.
Youd just have to add in future ev usage per household, im sire there is an algorithm to determing the amount. Including overheads for keepin 20-80% the najority if the time.
Im thinking of getting a 15Kw battery and invertor for my house, and charging it over night on my ev plan. (I cant have solar cos in on the wrong side of a mountain). I only pulf my car in once or twcse a week, so pulling 8Kw into a house battery nightly isnt goign to tac the system. And i liek thf idea of living off 7p pwk electricity.
Battries are really coming doen in peice. And lots of options. And invertor are a thrid of a price if you get thr direct from china, and alot are hogher hated than what we bay 3x more for here.
I'm not sure why you think renewable energy suppliers want to sell us really cheap electricity.They are businesses operating for the sole purpose of making as much profit as possible.Why would any business choose to make less profit ?
Great one Dave, it said what needed to be said and yes we need to change the way we are billed. Also why are green tariffs on electricity? They should be moved to gas that would also reduce electric costs.
You do your best to let EV drivers know who are the cheaper charge companies and I am sure if we all stopped using the expensive oones, pricing would have to change.
Don't go to charge at the high price dispensers. Why can't they charge competitive rates as tesla networks. Good topic dave, hopefully we can get answers...
Guessing, Tesla can run at cost, and the advantage of that network sells more cars. The charging operators run the business to make money.
@@anthonypilgrim3593Tesla runs the Supercharger network at a profit.
It would be interesting to know what price Tesla pays for it electricity, and how long a contract it has for that price.
@@solentbum Tesla produces and stores electricity with their solar panels batteries and Megabatteries. They can copy Tesla if they want. German car manufacturers were laughing at Tesla, Chinese copied them and look at the result.
Your analysis that the energy market is rigged is accurate though perhaps you could have mentioned that gas determines the marginal price because renewables are intermittent and gas powerstations are favoured because they provide base load. However, this isn’t justification for continuing with the status quo. The installation of large batteries could mitigate the intermittency issues with renewables and will do very soon. Personally, I would move government subsides from large fossil fuel generators to community renewable generation. This would improve grid resilience in the long run and reduce the need for expensive new high voltage transmission infrastructure.
Even easier would be to just subsidise gas generated electricity and allow the renewables to sell at whatever price they choose. Renewables would boom, batteries would boom and Gas would then become our peaker plants, only for use in an emergency and in time phased out.
@davetakesiton yes, using gas to cover peak demand in the short-term is logical if you accept the principle of continuing subsidies for fossil fuels. But if community energy is to be delivered at scale by communities, for communities (which I believe it should in preference to large commercial renewable energy generation for profit), it needs subsidising, particularly in poorer parts of the country. Where better to get the money than from the fossil fuel industries? I believe these ought to be brought into public ownership and their profits paid as dividends to the public in the near term, before they phased out, at least for combustion.
This is a brilliant video descibing the mess our country is in with privatised energy companies raking in huge profits for their shareholeders, well played Dave!
@@sausagemcgregory 100% agree
Unfortunately as we have just swapped a Neoliberal government for a Neoliberal government who prioritise private business profits over people’s happiness (health and dignity) we won’t see any real changes.
Get use some answers Dave can't you set up an interview with Greg Jackson he may have some answers
Greg Jackson has been banging on about the same point for at least a year that I know of. He has suggested regional pricing: because why should Scotish, Welsh and Yorkshire power users have to subsidize eg Surrey and Middlesex users?
Ofgem, Ofwat... All of them working for the interests of the private industries. Revolving door and backhanders.
In the case of OFGEM they've pointed out that electricity pricing is out of date.
Dave in the video missed a point that OFGEM is just the administrator they can only set using the electricity pricing framework, which is a set of rules issued by successive governments. Not sure why Dave called them out in the way he did, as they don't have the power to set prices, only the cap on standard rate tariffs following government rules.
However, the pricing framework is now under review, with the new government and green energy generators and supplies are lobbying for the framework to change to allow lower cost renewables to determine the price where possible.
Dave missed a point on taxation as well, focussing on the Climate Charge Levy for some reason, which applies to business electricity (so public charging) but not to domestic electricity which has separate tax elements.
The thing with domestic electricity taxation is it's relatively high at 25% overall because it factors in collecting tax for all energy types, as virtually everyone has electricity but not everyone has naural gas (which is only taxed at 6% as a result).
I know I'm curmudgeonly but I'm gonna say it; I love Dave's content, but his hand gestures drive me nuts.
You’re completely missing the point. The major cost is the grid connection. They are eye wateringly high. Its high by design by the government to offer cheap electricity bills to domestic users by charging a premium on industrial connection.
I would rather they build a bigger network. These chargers are not cheap you know.
wind is totally free ? What are you on about... wind is the most expensive out there...
The wind is free, nobody pays for it. Power from wind could be very cheap but it's not in UK because some ''friends'' invested and want to make more money. Who are they? Easy to find but not easy to tell.
@@chrishar110 Really ? I think its called "Engineering"... yes there is a group of the same people behind installing these things which don't work and they are getting hyped, along with "Political C02" nonsense, then useful idiots who talk about it all the time.
What are you on about, wind is the cheapest major generation source in the UK, has been for years. It's just domestically the way the UKs electricity pricing framework is that it is based on the most expensive generating source at any point in time, which haopens to be the cost of natural gas generation (particularly peaker plants).
This is why green energy suppliers are pushing for change, to a refuonal pricing model so those areas without gas generation can get lower electricity prices.
@GruffSillyGoat it was only during the peak of war that gas was highest, very short time. They usually include on top of the gas price quotes the extra tax so its not actually the real cost. I can see you are really quite delusional about this... if you are interested in a different more factual view check out "Paul Burgess" and others. But I think your quite stock in this way of thinking and not really interested ?
@@ndudman8 - nothing to do with the war, this is the way the UKs electricity pricing framework functions, its based on the wholesale price of the most expensive generating source (i.e. the price before taxes etc are applied).This has been the case for over a decade. As to authoritative source, well this is what the government, OFGEM, the energy suppliers and generators all state, and has been the subject of economic studies by universities.
You can understand how a government that could give the UK such a terrible system night also support Brexit. Why don't you vote in someone who will fix it?
Maybe a really simplistic viewpoint blaming everything on Brexit? Our Grid was there long, long, many decades before.
@@davetakesiton My comment may have been poorly worded; I was in no way blaming the issue on Brexit.
We have a similar issue here in Ontario where a "profit-motive" government sold off a toll highway and the electricity grid. Now successive governments (even of the same party) are dealing with the fallout of those bad decisions.
th-cam.com/video/ECTGhvVpsQc/w-d-xo.html
This is what's really happening with EV's.
This guy speaks facts with nearly 3 million subscribers.
th-cam.com/video/KiyMBly0lWI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=qnPJHVoaAnQGX557
If mass adoption is wanted then all EV chargers should be the same price as home charging 🤷🏻♂️
While I don’t disagree,where is the competition. What home charging rate? My 7.5p or peak daytime rates from the most expensive supplier?
That'll never happen. The price of Petrol and Diesel is vastly different throughout the country.
@@matthewtyler-jones8317How many EV owners do you know Matthew who CAN'T home charge or destination work charge?
Bet it's not many..
Imagine if pre-EV, driveway owns paid 40p a litre for fuel, but the driveway-less paid £1.40!
Two-tier have and have not pricing system will hold back adoption
You can't really make a direct comparison. If you did have more public chargers at 7kW then it would probably have to be at 30p+ per kWh (and some are currently around 40p). This wouldn't really satisfy the national public charging network. Now, if you were to install a rapid DC charger at home then the cost would be much higher as you'd need 3-phase or large battery banks (and possibly both). These come at a cost and it would be unrealistic to write this off as most people do with a 7kW charger (i know you could use a granny charger for very little capital outlay). Also, public equipment usually has to be much more robust than domestic equipment and probably has a much shorter lifespan. So, there is never going to be price parity. What we need is a cheaper public charging network and that will almost certainly happen as more people start to use them and there is greater competition. Supermarkets could be the key to this for those that can't charge at home.
12 minutes in we discover the real purpose of the video, he wants to go on about an amazing new Tesla charging station somewhere...
More Dave Gets It Wrong than takes it on.
Somewhat pedantic errors in the previous video but this one gets it wrong on the important stuff. There is an issue that CPOs should have more variable rate pricing but the understanding of the wholesale electricity market isn't just simplistic...it's wrong.
indeed, not how the markets work at all. A simple google search gives a more insightful explanation and a history of the power pipes paid in the market, over £580/mw at its peak in Sept 2022.
The wholesale electricity market is where electricity is bought and sold before it is delivered to consumers. The main participants in the wholesale electricity market are generators and suppliers.
Here are some key things to know about the wholesale electricity market:
Price
The price of electricity in the wholesale market is based on a number of factors, including the cost of fuel, demand, carbon taxes, and the availability of resources like wind and sun. The price can fluctuate throughout the day.
Volatility
The wholesale electricity market is highly volatile because of the many variables that impact it, including supply and demand. This means that prices can change dramatically over short periods of time.
Suppliers
Suppliers buy electricity from generators at wholesale prices, then add a mark-up and sell it to customers at a higher price.
Consumers
Consumers don't usually deal directly with wholesale energy costs, but these costs do affect the retail prices they pay to their energy supplier.
National pricing
In Great Britain, the wholesale electricity market uses a system called national pricing, which means that there is one price for wholesale electricity across the country at any given time.
Futures market
Electricity is often traded as a commodity in the futures market, where producers, consumers, and traders can buy and sell contracts for the future delivery of electricity.
@@jonathandurman2729- I would add that the UK (as does Norway and Poland) uses a capacity market rather than a financial based futures market. The UK runs reverse auctions to contract for a defined capacity level, in which it offers the generator a guaranteed (up to maximum) price for the electricity generated for an agreed duration (typically 15 years for generation). This differs to futures markets (like operated in Germany) that assumes the market will build capacity to meet a future demand on the basis of financial market drivers solely.
Gas needs to finish asap - and be replaced by grid scale batteries. Nuclear is not the answer.
@@steverichmond7142 Does it really require a flat earther Creationist Christian to point out the absolute absurdity of your claim and that gas is used to generate electricity, while your delusional and toxic batteries would store the electricity generated by something useful?! You can’t store what you refuse to produce. Batteries are an issue now as there’s nothing the national grid can do when there’s no wind, no sunshine and people want to watch the hideous news and other fictional rubbish on TV, while sipping their tea.
Wind turbines don't run for free:
The annual operating and maintenance (O&M) cost of a wind turbine depends on its power output and other factors. For example, a 100 kW turbine might cost £8,000 per year to run, while a 4.26 MW turbine might cost £251,000 per year
I didn't say run free, I said produce electricity free, very different.
@davetakesiton you did, I apologise, and although you mentioned maintenance and support, I don't think I'm being too pedantic here.
Then you factor in the raising curtailment costs (expected to hit 1.5 billion by 2035) they are certainly not free!