Jonathan is one of the finest if not the finest researchers on LDS history and scriptures that I'm aware of. You could have him on over and over and over and I would never tire of his information, intellect and inspiration.
Look at JSH 1:35. Joseph calls the Urim and Thummim "seer stones". They are one and the same. This whole question is similar to deciding if Joseph used pen or ink to write the translation. It is minor. Let John Delin fire up people over minor issues. He is straining at gnats.
@jamestrek2570 Did she break with the JSFoundation then..? They have all sorts of material insisting polygamy truly was a commandment of God and direct refutations to the claims of modern polygamy deniers. I dislike their approach to how they do a lot of their “proving,” though, from the limited amount of time I have spent poking around their website. I mean, for one, they insist there’s no way JS Sr could have had any issues with alcohol because he’s recorded as being “favored of God” and you don’t have God favoring neglectful drunks!!!! Nevermind the other references (in D&C no less…) to his tendency to drink… I also dislike their staunch insistence that the translation only happened as JS and OC said, because that’s “all they ever said about the translation;” meanwhile that’s the exact same argument some polygamy deniers use (Joseph denied practicing and teaching it - until basically right before his death; Emma denied it, Hyrum pretty much always referenced Jacob and spoke against polygamy). But the JSF seems pretty consigned to the fact that JS did practice it. I assumed Hannah would also share that belief (I thought she wrote a book about Helen Mar Kimball, but maybe that was a different Stoddard), but I could be wrong!
The ideas of men mingled with scripture, or the truth. I will always take the word of Joseph Smith, the head prophet of the Last Dispensation of the Fullness of Time, a prophet who I am sure is like uto Michael, and Gabriel in the hierarchy of premortal heavenly priesthood holder, over any scholar in the church. Joseph KNEW, and he KNEW more than any other prophet in this dispensation, and those who fail to believe him, will have to answer for it. John athan Nevill is the GOAT when it comes to Church History research.
I believe that the Lord has allowed the confusion and arguments to occur to test His saints. Are we going to believe what we think we see about past events (200 years ago) or are we going to trust Him? Are we going to trust the work of academic scholars or are we going to trust His word (Ether 4:8)? It is my conviction that we trust Him and Him alone, or else we may not be able to stand in the Day of Judgement.
@@rconger24 "So, what are your fruits that we should believe or follow you ?" What is this? Has it a name? It is the sure sign of a person deeply indoctrinated in an authority cult. Whom should I believe? Whom should I follow? Uhmm....how about thinking independently, weighing evidence, applying logic and so on...instead of looking for authority figures to follow? Which is more likely...that Joseph Smith used the same stone-in-the-hat gimmick that he used when he was a "finder" of buried treasure? Or that he used magic crystals called the Urim & Thummim and a breastplate that were given to him by an angel and the angel then conveniently hauled all the relevant physical objects, including the golden plates, back to heaven so that nobody who was not invested in the Book of Mormon book project could ever examine them?
@@rconger24they don’t have any fruits, they just like to entice doubt by bringing up their favorite vocab words like “cult” and “indoctrination”. Which is ironic, because they’re very insistent that you must question like they do and if you don’t, you’re “brainwashed”. Sounds kinda pushy and deceitful to me.
I don’t care if he used a hat and seer stone… imagine how much more difficult it would be to write a 500+ page book one word at a time orally with no notes.
Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery seemed to care since they both in writing during their lifetimes gave accounts specifically saying that the translation was carried out with the Nephite interpreters and no mention of any scrying stone.
So I have one big problem with the idea that "the narrative is changing," and it's this: The official history of the Church, published in the 1930s, says that Joseph Smith used both the brown Seer Stone and the Urim and Thummim to translate. In other words, the Seer Stone isn't new - the Church has been teaching this for a hundred years.
@@scubed8671 I'm not the person you replied to, but when I look at the Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (published in 1930) it talks about the seer stone in Chapter 169. President Wilford Woodruff consecrated it on the altar of the Manti Temple during its dedication in 1888. Yes, the first published account speaks of Joseph using "spectacles in a hat" which would refer to the Nephite interpreters. But one of the first accounts instead says he put a white stone into a hat (Cincinnati Advertiser, 2 June 1830) Rather than "first" accounts, I think "first-hand" accounts are more valuable. What did people in the room with Joseph say he did? Joseph and Oliver said he used the Nephite Interpreters, but didn't say how he used them. Joseph Knight said he put the Urim and Thummim (probably the interpreters) into a hat. Elizabeth Whitmer said he put the "directors" into a hat (could refer to either interpreters or seer stone). Michael Morse (Emma's brother-in-law) said he saw him use the seer stones in his hat. In Emma's interview with Joseph Smith III, she says he translated with his stone in his hat. In an earlier letter, she said he initially translated with the Urim and Thummim, and then after Martin lost the 116 pages, she says he used a dark-colored stone. David Whitmer says the same-he acknowledges he wasn't around for Martin Harris' transcription, but that he understood that the angel took away the interpreters, and instead gave him a stone. David said he looked into it, but couldn't see anything. Not quite first-hand, first published in 1881 long after his death, but probably worth mentioning since the Church published it and features prominently in the early discussion. Martin Harris related a story that Joseph would sometimes use the seer stone for convenience, and he swapped it out for an identical stone as a kind of "test" for Joseph. Jonathan Neville obviously disagrees with these accounts, and that's okay: when presented with conflicting accounts, I'm sure there are many ways one may choose to resolve them. History is about picking up the pieces of what is left behind, and seeing how they fit together.
@@WooperSlim I really like you're way of putting this, because there are conflicting accounts. I'm okay with someone who says "Yeah, I don't think the evidence shows he used a seer stone." Like Jonathan Neville, I think he's wrong but I don't think he's stupid. What I'm not okay with is people who say "The Seer Stone hypothesis is anti and if you believe it you've been duped." No, I've closely examined the evidence. It's way more complex than that. I also think it's clearly wrong to say "Scholars are manipulating the history." No, they're not. They're just following the evidence for something that's been around for a long time.
Jonathan Neville said Joseph Smith used the seer stone to "satisfy the awful curiosity of his followers". But not sure I agree with that. Joseph was known to say that every person gets a urim and thummim eventually. This implies that a "seer stone" and "urim and thummim" are one and the same. The Urim and Thummim is made of seer stones in reality. A Urim and Thummim is just a seer stone with metal frames for spectacles, or glasses. Just a possibility. You remove the polished rocks from the metal frames and you have a seer stone. This could be a bit like arguing if someone used pen or ink to write a translation. They are essentially parts or components of one object.
@@EKowallis Joseph said the earth itself would be a urim and thummim in its celestial state. In Revelation it describes the foundation as a "sea of glass", i.e. polished rock or like a crystal. A Urim and Thummim is polished rock like glass, and a seer stone is polished rock like glass. They are one and the same.
@@micahjoelm Perhaps they are one and the same but the Urim and Thummim are the only stones prepared by the Lord, hence White to represent purity. It is said that everyone will get their own Urim and Thummim eventually. This could be like some kind of supercharged cell phone. Think about this for a second. Your cell phone is made of clear glass and emits light. Isn't this very similar to a seer stone? But possibly as you say the Urim and Thummim serves a more holy purpose whereas a seer stone can be used for temporal purposes. I wouldn't say a cell phone by nature is wicked, but it can be used for wicked purposes.
The Urim and Thummim are gifts from the Lord passing on celestial material from the Celestial realm. Seer stones (as they are called) and even the 16 stones that the Brother of Jared fashioned and were miraculously lit by being touched by the Finger of the Lord are of earthly substance. There is a difference.
@@osml2499I would argue there could be no difference between "earthly" and "celestial" material on a fundamental level, although energy from a celestial material is of higher energy and light and in a higher order. Einstein taught us that all matter is light and energy. I also addressed that possibly the difference is that "seer" stones are for temporal purposes and holy purposes while a "Urim and Thummim" is for higher or holier purposes only. But they are both stones. But the question though is whether the seer stone can be used for good purposes like a Urim and Thummim? I would say yes it can. I would also suggest all Urim and Thummims are seer stones, but not all seer stones are Urim and Thummims. Like how all celestial planets are planets but not all planets are celestial planets.
@@micahjoelmYes, I see your point and I'm not even sure myself. But there is a scripture in D&C 121:37 which says "behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." I believe this is the same for the U&T and seer stones. U&T can have their power withdrawn unless it is for holy purposes. In other words, lets say Joseph Smith decides to use the U&T to do a business transaction that will make him rich rather than translating the Book of Mormon. Then the power is withdrawn either temporarily or permanently. I believe the seer stone will work for temporal purposes as well. It is rumored that the seer stones were used to seek treasure and sometimes it worked but the treasure would disappear at the last moment. This is how Joseph had connections with Joseph Knight, who sought Joseph Smith for treasure seeking purposes. I guess I'm suggesting that the purpose and rules could be different for both but they are both just stones or seeing crystals at their fundamental level.
Discussed with acquaintance from Tanzania who is totally familiar with the challenges of tribal differences among a single race (i was fascinated my his explanation of how their government is organized to minimize tribal influence over governing of all), there really is NO such thing as racism, it's all tribalism.
@ snagret Is Joseph your Idol? he told the saints there minds has become darkened because they relayed to heavily on him. Joseph changed vital revelation from the Book of commandments when the D&C was made, many of which seem self serving . Brighamy changed revelation and documents to support Polygamy, LDS Historians changing the narrative as well. Hold to the Book of Mormon and God if something doesn’t hold up to discernment and the stick of Joseph and David throw it out! Joseph said the same for they are imposters.
"Martin Harris assisted with the translation in the spring of 1828. Martin said this. “By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written…and when finished he would say, 'Written,' and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected.”"
I think the esteemed Mr. Neville's approach to historical analysis (confirmation bias walking on stilts and taking steroids) would rebut this with various words, ultimately to the effect of saying that the statements and testimonies of any and all people who were directly involved and participating in the events in question have to be ignored in favor of believing only Joseph Smith's and Oliver Cowdery's mentions of an object called the "Urim & Thummim"...an object that nobody else was allowed to see...yea, verily, an object that was whisked away to a storage room in heaven by a glow-in-the-dark-resurrected-angel-man named Moroni, so that nobody will ever be allowed to see it. I can't understand why you seem to be having a hard time accepting Mr. Neville's approach to historical analysis.
9:24 this is where I part company with Neville. I can accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet AND accept his fallibility. He himself said not everything he said was prophetic.
Neville is a seer stone denier and makes things up. His position comes down to an argument of authority. JS and Cowdery downplayed the folk-magic elements of the BofM's origin, and suppressing the seer stone was part of their strategy. Neville has to resort to conspiracy to explain away all the eyewitnesses. His book is filled with poorly reasoned arguments and he invents a story that the eyewitnesses saw a one-time exhibition of the seer stone. He has no source or evidence. The Interpreters were not Urim and Thummim, but were closer to the seer stone than the U&T. So it didn't matter to JS which he used. They worked the same. The spectacles were too big.
The U&T was placed with the plates for a reason. The only "rocks" I read about were the ones placed to form the stone box. Your opinions are comple Bovine Excrement IMO 💩
Whatever the percentage of restoration history we have it would probably double if the church opened up the journals of William Clayton 🤷🏽♂️ Which raises the question why won’t they release them?? 🤷 What exactly in those journals does the church not want us to know??
Not to long ago Pres Oaks and Ballard said they haven't and are not hiding anything from the saints and they are being as honest as they know how to be. Are you accusing the brethren of hiding things and being dishonest?
Ignoring the argument of what the seer stone (urim/thummin) did or did not do. IF it did translate, I have been proposing for almost 20 years that it might just be a solar powered device, with a low intensity LED on one side and a scanner on the other Then, it is connected to a celestial equivalent of Google Translate. With no "power outlets", solar would be the ideal way to charge it. A low intensity LED might need to be shielded from direct light in order to see it. As celestial google translate, it would require context to pick the most relevant translation and then reorganize sentences in order to get it to sound appropriately. It might translate a sentence to: Self in the future does male parent obeying. Translator realizes: I will go and do what my father commands. But, the process is imperfect. If you say: When my father commands, I will obey and do. It means the same thing, but people who want a reason to cry foul, will. Because, you see, its different. It must be made up.
Yeah. It's really amazing when you think about it. The omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator of the universe and God over all that was, is and ever will be...can't do any better than relying on a clumsy "celestial" version of "g o o g le translate" --- only a bit worse. It's almost as bad as only being able to communicate "true" and "false" answers by way of an invisible ghost that triggers human feelings that are indistinguishable from non-ghost-triggered human feelings. But I guess the ghost-induced feelings method for "knowing" is preferable over requiring members of the church to buy Celestial Ouija Boards in addition to having to buy Celestial underwear. I mean the angel Moroni could haul physical objects like golden plates back and forth between heaven and earth. Why not just have a perfect book of scripture printed and bound in the Celestial Kingdom and deliver it to a reputable person on earth instead of having things done through a disreputable failed treasure hunt scammer. Of course I know the answer: "God works in mysterious ways"...and he still needs money, which can be delivered to God by way of forking it over to his appointed and anointed money managers who work in the Church Office Building.
@@micahjoelmNot that I know of. LOL. Are you feeling proselytized? But if you're interested in buying a Celestial Ouija Board, I may consider creating an appropriate religious cult to sell them...unless I can get a contract with the upper management of the COJCOLDS first. I really think something like that would be a great replacement for all the fun things that have been deleted from the temple rituals, like the penalties. Imagine an all-white Celestial Elijah Board, with a beautiful marble planchette, being used to receive messages in the temple and maybe even facilitate patriarchal blessings. "Too sacred to talk about, but I have to mention how I felt when the Elijah Board in the Celestial Room spelled out 'yes! yes! yes!' when I asked whether Cindy Lou was supposed to be my wife!"
@@micahjoelmAm I proselytizing? Not that I'm aware of. Doesn't proselytizing mean trying to convert people to a religion (usually from another religion)? I'm just trying to gently remind people that reality is still out here when they get finished exploring the maze of mist and mirrors in their religious fantasy-land theme park. Like, you know, have fun thinking about wizards, crystals, peepstones and magic rocks wired to a breastplate and a glow-in-the-dark angel who hauls golden plates back and forth between heaven and earth. But don't lose touch with reality. When you're finished, we'll be waiting for you out here in the real world with some sandwiches and hot postum...or even coffee...or green tea. Any beverage you desire.
I'm trying to square the information in this video with the story of Martin Harris switching the seer stone with one he found on the river bank when Joseph took a break to skip stones. Didn't Joseph's distress and confusion about it not working as before solidify Harris' confidence in Joseph's claim? Was this story a lie?
Great video! Totally agree with the Urim & Thummim narrative FACT and how we should just stick with the Scriptures on that and the testimony of the ones who were actually THERE for the bulk of time of the translation: Joseph and Oliver. Never understood how that anti-mormon ridiculous rock in a hat thing caught on when the Urim & Thummim was specifically created and used by prophets and handed down, oh yeah I do, because of the words of those that apostatized and never came back, and who concocted a ridiculous idea with a ridiculous image. If the Urim & Thummim were good enough for the Brother of Jared (who saw the whole world and where 2/3 of the Book of Mormon is dedicated to his revelations) or King Mosiah, prophet and SEER, then certainly there's a reason for these interpreters, and they were specially prepared and sealed away in the box on Cumorah's hill by the prophet Moroni to SPECIFICALLY give these to Joseph Smith for HIS use. Seems so obvious, but anti-mormons will glob on to the dumbed down substitute because it fits their narrative of mocking.
Whoops, Hannah Stoddard does not refute that Joseph had a seer stone she refutes that he used it to translate. She is on YT and says very clear that JS had a seer stone. Let’s not become so comfortable throwing stones that we start striking friendly fire those who state the same argument your making.
@6:00 Cardon, are you suggesting that “the church office building employees”, not the Brethren, were the driving force behind the church commissioning and publishing the gospel topics essays?
The seer stones were used for Revelation by Joseph Smith and more than martin emma and david saw it. It isnt a false narrative. This guy is the one manipulating church history.
So were joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey lying then? They always claimed that they used the Urim and Thumim, and that's it. So it seems like you are claiming that they are lying.
@@brentknudson311 Seer Stones ARE Urim and Thummim as well as the interpreters. Nobody was lying. Joseph used all of them at one point or another and not one particular method all the way through.
@@brentknudson311"So were joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey lying then? They always claimed that they used the Urim and Thumim, and that's it. So it seems like you are claiming that they are lying." Because the Urim and Thummim and seer stones are the same. It is even mentioned in JSH 1:35 by Joseph Smith himself.
Interesting that you were fascinated by Jonathan Neville saying that historians have “manipulated church history to accommodate their own ideas” and yet when Michelle Stone is trying to convey the same thing she is laughed at and mocked.
Michelle Stone refuses to believe that JS practiced POLYGAMY. This is in direct opposition to the official church narrative. But yet she has not been excommunicated. And if someone goes up on fast Sunday and Bears testimony that Joseph Smith used a stone and a hat They would be excommunicated within days
Because her claim is that the actual canon scriptures were manipulated to accommodate apostate practises from our early prophets. Quite a big difference in accusation, and historians have pretty easily shown that Joseph did preach and teach polygamy. I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.
Jonathan, I love yours and Rod Meldrum's works! I have listened to every one of your interviews on TH-cam. You always do a great job explaining how JS III embraced U&T and plate translation and dismissed Emma's Last Testimony by not referring to it when he defended his father against David Whitmer's STITH claims to prove JS was a fallen prophet.; but you fail to mention another great point in your book, By Means of the U&T. In that book, you cited a letter Emma had written, nine years prior to her deathbed testimony , in response to her friend’s inquiry about BOM translation. In that letter Emma stated JS used the U&T and plates while translating the first 116 pages. She mentioned JS used a stone after that but she couldn't recall the details because she couldn't find her books or her copies of the Times and Seasons articles . This shows she wasn't a first hand witness to him doing that. It's also funny that in answering her friend's translation question, Emma's memory had failed her. Seems she had forgotten that she had sat hour after hour writing as Joseph dictated with his face buried in his hat as he read words off a stone. If she was able to remember those details so well on her deathbed, why wasn't she able to recall them when she wrote her response to her friend nine years earlier? Emma, herself, through this letter, discredits the reliability and credibility of her Last testimony.
What do you think about the donkey in the bible speaking and Christ healing the bible the rod turning into a serpent and all the miracles People forget With God all things are possible His ways are our ways with God all things are possible and these things He says to use to bring about miricles are to use faith first
23:10 AS I HAVE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES..... When Joseph was laid up after the surgery, what else could he do....READ READ READ....and NOT JUST "Christian Material"....BOOKS via Hyrum...and the Doctors from Dartmouth when they checked up on him. From His Father, the time to time school teacher. I agree with this guy that Joseph IMMERSED HIMSELF IN ANY BOOK HE COULD GET HIS HANDS ON......MAPS TOO!!!
except for the fact that we have a video of Pres Nelson demonstrating how Joseph used the hat with his seer sone in it. And we all know that that the Prophet only teaches truth to the saints and wouldn't lead them astray.
Alma 37:23 "And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, A STONE, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations." Obviously, Joseph Smith had a thing for "seer stones". Not sure why heroic efforts are needed to pretend that Joseph Smith would not have used the "stone-in-the-hat" gimmick on occasion, or on most occasions, in connection with his "translation" work. "Shine forth in darkness unto light"...kind of like the story about needing to use a hat to see the glowing words appearing in the seer stone.
??????? "Joseph never claimed mastery, or even fluency in this language. Indeed, his wife Emma, who knew him best, said he, “could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter, let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon.” Young Joseph was an uneducated farmer. How then could he translate a record that he could not read? Therein lies a miracle."
He could if the person writing it down was the smart one and wrote Joseph's words down in a more intelligible way. I mean all you have is testimony. Nobody living today was there.
BYU scholars maybe have their own agenda, but their own agenda for what??? The spirit tells me (especially reading their stuff) that they are evil. Pure Lehite
19:30.... WHAT WAS MARTIN HARRIS TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE TOLD HIS STORY ABOUT SWITCHING JOSEPH'S ROCK IN HIS HAT WITH ONE HARRIS PICKED UP AND SWAPPED????? Isn't that a "witness" to the Rock in the Hat METHOD???????????????
@@gandalftheblack4Virtually nothing in Mormonism has come to you as a "first-hand account". (Even the First Vision stories are not first-hand from Elo and Jeho. You have to trust one of the inconsistent, belatedly recalled versions told by Joseph Smith to someone who wrote down the accounts for Joseph Smith regarding what he was told by the beings that, according to him, appeared to him in a vision in the scraggly woods. Neville here is really just repeating to a large extent the narrative concerning the translation that is contained in Chapter VII of New Witnesses for God, Vol II, by B.H. Roberts. Neville just lets his inner confirmation bias demons run wild by cherry picking what is credible (to him) and what is not credible (to him), in an ad-hoc, self-serving manner. In reality, virtually every statement made by any witness or participant in the events was made to someone who wrote down the statement. (And the same applies to most things that Joseph Smith ever said.) In this case, the Martin Harris statements are based on reports made by Edward Stevenson, a faithful Mormon (even an erstwhile Mission President) who wrote for the Millennial Star and the Deseret News. Stevenson asserts that the statements and stories came directly from Martin Harris's own mouth, referring to a visit by Martin Harris to SLC in 1870 and talks and interviews given by Harris. Stevenson personally went to Ohio to escort Martin Harris to Utah and spent two months with Martin Harris in the process. Stevenson is about as authoritative as you can get as to what Martin Harris may have said about things. David Whitmer's accounts are published directly in David Whitmer's self-published "An Address to All Believers in Christ" and fully corroborate the similar statements, recollections, etc. of numerous other people (e.g. Joseph Knight) who participated in the events in question regarding the use of a seer stone and a hat...and were friendly to Joseph Smith's cause and even highly invested in it. Neville is simply starting out with a (now contrarian) thesis and going through "evidence" like it's a box of chocolates. "I like this one. Yuck, don't like that one. Double yuck, throw that one away. Oooh! This one's nice!" Bottom line: It's much ado about almost nothing. In one case you're talking about believing in a magic rock in a hat. In another case you're talking about believing in two magic transparent stones "set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate"... that only Joseph Smith could see (and which were hauled back to heaven by a glow-in-the-dark-resurrected-angel man named Moroni so that nobody would ever see them). Funny that people think the latter contraption is more dignified and credible because Joseph Smith called it the "Urim & Thummim".
I heard Neville address that story on I think Mormonism with the Murph about the book he and another guy wrote about the translation..? Basically his explanation of that story boiled down to Martin (or whoever first repeated that story) as being attuned to what makes a good story, knowing about the claims about the rock in the hat, and seeing an opportunity for a memorable translation tale. Neville and his coauthor walked back through when that story first appeared and who repeated it and that sort of thing, which I have forgotten. They basically chalk it up to hearsay, if I am remembering their account correctly. (I like that story, too; I suppose I’d have to read Neville’s book to fully see why he thinks it’s just a story and nothing more.)
Joseph and Hyrum also ALWAYS said they were against polygamy in any form whatsoever, yet you swallow the lie that they orchestrated an underground polygamy ring. Funny list of priorities of you have in clearing up the historical record.
23:15 "Non Biblical Language in The Book of Mormon"????? WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought this guy said Joseph used the spectacle version of The Urim & Thummim to TRANSLATE THE PLATES??? BUT.....JOSEPH USED WORDS THAT HE HAD LEARNED???????????NOT THE WORDS THAT MAGICALLY APPEARED???????????? WTH!!!!!!??????????
Neville’s statements are just as speculative or more so than any of the other LDS scholars. To dismiss Emma’s statements (she was his first scribe) as lies is ridiculous. Assuming he gets one, I wonder if Neville will throw his white stone away because it doesn't look like spectacles. 10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; D&C 130.
Take it easy brother…he is not dismissing her statements as lies, he sounded like he is proposing that she might not remember correctly as an older woman because JS III didn’t even include them in his writing.
@@IntoAllTruth. Wait, how come you’re not one with me? 😊 One with Christ and the Father is what we are to become. Not One with everyone. Brother Neville is criticizing the Mormon Essays the Church has commissioned, claiming they are based on speculation while he offers the truth. But then offers his own speculation that Emma didn’t remember how her husband translated the Book of Mormon. I have no problem with his criticisms but he claims his statements are based in fact while everyone else is basing their statements on “speculation”.
I hear you, with his background he has a certain strategy, not aware of “other places” where he speculates. It’s a puzzle that he, and others are trying to piece together. It’s a lot of statements and writings and here say from 200 years ago so obviously there’s speculation. It just felt like you not giving him a chance when he is presenting his argument. Are you a meso guy? Either way it doesn’t matter how the plates were translated, but is an interesting subject.
We have Martin, Emma, Samuel smith, Oliver who helped Joseph scribe him translating. Out of all these you only trust Oliver’s and Joseph’s statement, why? Because of Emma’s age? To paint a picture of her like she was loosing her mind is inaccurate and denigrating to her testimony. I think David Whitmer is very compelling witness to the early church in general, even though he was commanded by God to separate himself from the church and has big problems with some of Joseph moves in the restoration, Emma said she believed he could be trusted! Joseph gave him some awesome blessings, David even prophesied to Joseph and Rigdon and warned them, which all came true. Any books that you could recommend or documents that give us a better understanding of why all the witnesses of the Book of Mormon fell away , besides the Smiths? And why like half the apostles did? I love Joseph, and have generally given him greater credibility then the rest, but no doubt he made some big mistakes, changed essential revelation found in the Book of Commandments, that changed the very nature of Christ church and perhaps is part of the reason the Lord removed his name from the church in 1834.
@@rconger24"Enough of it"....meaning that all the deleted stuff was unnecessary? Whatever it is today is all that is needed and if 50% of that is deleted by the end of the next decade, then that remnant will be "enough". Eventually, it will just be a bunch of naked people standing around the altar wearing green aprons and chanting "O Lord!". And that will obviously be "enough". The great thing about the "ongoing restoration" is that it mainly consists of deleting the things that previously were claimed to be essential parts of "the restoration". Gotta just love Mormonism! It's so trippy and illogical. Who needs mushrooms???!!!
@@asdfgh9007 Does the mormon prophet know when god is talking to him? Or do they not want to say so, since then their prophecy can be held to a high standard?
@@asdfgh9007Obviously, Mr. Neville knows more than the Prophet Russell M. Nelson about things like the method by which the Book of Mormon was translated. But Russell M. Nelson knows more about how sad, hurt and disappointed Jesus is when people use the nickname "Mormon" to refer to the Church of Jesus. It's a victory for Satan.
too much second hand, speculation and filling in the blanks...especially from an attorney. Whether Joseph used the urim and thumin, a seer stone in a hat, nothing at all...or all of the above, doesn't matter. Ultimately, he received the translation directly thorugh the spirit...not the tools. That is why he couldn't translate after the loss of the 116 pages. Throwing shade on the Church gospel topics essays and trusted organizations like The Intrpreter shows some serious weakness. Good interview though, thanks for hosting it.
8:40.... "they say"...??? WHO IS THEY?????? Prophet Nelson says it was The Rock in a Hat Method.....THE CHURCH SAYS IT WAS. So this guy is saying The Church, The Prophet, are lying??? or Ignorant????
The Lord our God gave the "Gift" of "these two stones" to the Brother of Jared on Mt. Shelem before he came to the Land of Promise on the barges. They were not of the 16 stones that the Lord touched with His finger to produce a source of light - they were separate. The Lord provided those same interpreters to the Nephite prophets (at least beginning with Mosiah - father of Benjamin). The Lord declared in D&C 17:1 that the Urim & Thummim that Joseph Smith had were the very same stones. It is an insult to the Lord to suggest that after all of His watching over and bringing forth those 2 stones, kept in bow and attached to a breastplate, to the latter-day, He allowed Joseph to ditch them in place of some seer stone! It DID NOT happen! The Book of Mormon was translated by the same Celestial Gift and the Power of God that was used by King Mosiah to translate the 24 plates. It was His gift and His purpose. Our scholars are utter fools! Blasphemous fools!
Unfortunately, it's not 100% clear that the Nephite interpreters were not part of the 16 stones touched by the Lord. It makes just as much sense that they were. An analogy is found in Talmudic commentary, where Noah had a stone (tzohar--"window") that he used for light in the ark. In those commentaries, this same stone also made its way onto the ephod used by the Levites, which, according to tradition, would indicate revelation by illuminated writing on the stones themselves. There is significant evidence that seer stones can play a role in receiving light and truth, which you seem to reject outright. If this were not the case, the revelations from Hiram Page's seer stone would have been declared blasphemous foolishness, without the need to be verified by the Lord. I think it's much more problematic to the Joseph Smith narrative to say that all use of seer stones are blasphemous, then to acknowledge their power in the right hands.
@@micahjoelm Ether 3:23. After the Lord had touched and illuminated the 16 stones, the Lord is instructing the Brother of Jared and says "And behold, these two stones will I give unto thee..." The Lord passed on from the Celestial realm celestial material (the Urim & Thummim) to the Brother of Jared on this mount. The miracle of the 16 stones was lighting earthly material touched by the Finger of God. The interpreters are the Lord's gift of celestial substance to man. That is why they have been under such strict charge over the centuries. I do not not know anything about seer stones (as they are called). I do not say that they are blasphemous. I say that those who believe that the Book of Mormon was translated using one in place of the Lord's gift are blasphemous.
As a fellow truth seeker I appreciate your views. I do offer a word of caution regarding the notion that all scholars have pure intent. There are those with a dark agenda and in a coming day they shall be exposed. Have a wonderful day.
The Heartland Model proponents should win the 'manipulating history' reward hands down: A prime example is David Read's book "Face of a Nephite", which tries to rewrite the entire ancient history of North America by turning the Kennewick man into a Nephite from the Book of Mormon. We don't need to completely rewrite sound scientific research on ancient history to show plausibility of the Book of Mormon, once we realize how small the Old World immigrant groups were and the fairly limited area of their spheres of influence, and are open minded enough to consider any place in the Americas that fits the limited textual descriptions in the book itself, while being open minded enough to think outside the box of previous outdated assumptions on Book of Mormon geography. So when the Heartland model proponents accuse modern LDS scholars of manipulating history, they don't have much of a leg to stand on, credibility-wise, when their entire philosophy is geared towards distorting sound science and history into something that will support their very strict literalist views on historical accounts in the scriptures and their literalistic and intent focus on very selective cherry-picked statements of past church leaders on such topics (historical accounts) to the complete exclusion of those other scriptures and past and current leaders' statements that don't agree with their theories.
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Cardon! BRO 😂 your Alex Jones impersonation is on point! 🎯
Jonathan is one of the finest if not the finest researchers on LDS history and scriptures that I'm aware of. You could have him on over and over and over and I would never tire of his information, intellect and inspiration.
100000% me toooo!!! I go back years on TH-cam and rewatch everything he is speaking on hahaha.
Too bad the interviewer talked over him so much
Truth
A couple of months ago, Hannah Stoddard gave proof no seer stone was used in the translation of the Book of Mormon
Look at JSH 1:35. Joseph calls the Urim and Thummim "seer stones". They are one and the same. This whole question is similar to deciding if Joseph used pen or ink to write the translation. It is minor. Let John Delin fire up people over minor issues. He is straining at gnats.
She also “proved” JS wasn’t a polygamist. Which is completely against the church narrative. She should be excommunicated.
"proof"....HAHAHAHAA THAT was Hannah simply tossing out "non-faith promoting" facts.
@@krismurphy7711
Look it up. Don't ask me to do your work
@jamestrek2570 Did she break with the JSFoundation then..? They have all sorts of material insisting polygamy truly was a commandment of God and direct refutations to the claims of modern polygamy deniers.
I dislike their approach to how they do a lot of their “proving,” though, from the limited amount of time I have spent poking around their website. I mean, for one, they insist there’s no way JS Sr could have had any issues with alcohol because he’s recorded as being “favored of God” and you don’t have God favoring neglectful drunks!!!! Nevermind the other references (in D&C no less…) to his tendency to drink…
I also dislike their staunch insistence that the translation only happened as JS and OC said, because that’s “all they ever said about the translation;” meanwhile that’s the exact same argument some polygamy deniers use (Joseph denied practicing and teaching it - until basically right before his death; Emma denied it, Hyrum pretty much always referenced Jacob and spoke against polygamy). But the JSF seems pretty consigned to the fact that JS did practice it. I assumed Hannah would also share that belief (I thought she wrote a book about Helen Mar Kimball, but maybe that was a different Stoddard), but I could be wrong!
Cardon's impersonation of Alex Jones is fantastic.
Yeah. So good I almost had to change the channel! 😂
@@tuvoca825lol😂
24:54 my favorite part was hearing Bro Neville go hard bearing direct testimony, maybe without even realizing it
The ideas of men mingled with scripture, or the truth. I will always take the word of Joseph Smith, the head prophet of the Last Dispensation of the Fullness of Time, a prophet who I am sure is like uto Michael, and Gabriel in the hierarchy of premortal heavenly priesthood holder, over any scholar in the church. Joseph KNEW, and he KNEW more than any other prophet in this dispensation, and those who fail to believe him, will have to answer for it. John athan Nevill is the GOAT when it comes to Church History research.
@@dirkjensen969 I couldn’t have said it better myself L O L
Heck, that's a good Alex Jones impression
Great interview! Thank you. We will buy his books.
I didn't know that Cardon could do such a spot on Alex Jones 😂
Wow Cardon! You do a great Alex Jones!
Thanks for great content & great guests!!! 😇❤
I believe that the Lord has allowed the confusion and arguments to occur to test His saints. Are we going to believe what we think we see about past events (200 years ago) or are we going to trust Him? Are we going to trust the work of academic scholars or are we going to trust His word (Ether 4:8)? It is my conviction that we trust Him and Him alone, or else we may not be able to stand in the Day of Judgement.
False doctrine!!!!
God is not a God of confusion.
Even to “test his Saints”.
There’s a much simpler explanation.
JS was a false prophet.
@@jamestrek2570
So, what are your fruits that we should believe or follow *_you_* ?
@@rconger24 "So, what are your fruits that we should believe or follow you ?" What is this? Has it a name? It is the sure sign of a person deeply indoctrinated in an authority cult. Whom should I believe? Whom should I follow? Uhmm....how about thinking independently, weighing evidence, applying logic and so on...instead of looking for authority figures to follow? Which is more likely...that Joseph Smith used the same stone-in-the-hat gimmick that he used when he was a "finder" of buried treasure? Or that he used magic crystals called the Urim & Thummim and a breastplate that were given to him by an angel and the angel then conveniently hauled all the relevant physical objects, including the golden plates, back to heaven so that nobody who was not invested in the Book of Mormon book project could ever examine them?
@@rconger24they don’t have any fruits, they just like to entice doubt by bringing up their favorite vocab words like “cult” and “indoctrination”. Which is ironic, because they’re very insistent that you must question like they do and if you don’t, you’re “brainwashed”. Sounds kinda pushy and deceitful to me.
I don’t care if he used a hat and seer stone… imagine how much more difficult it would be to write a 500+ page book one word at a time orally with no notes.
Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery seemed to care since they both in writing during their lifetimes gave accounts specifically saying that the translation was carried out with the Nephite interpreters and no mention of any scrying stone.
Love Jonathan Neville and his books.
So I have one big problem with the idea that "the narrative is changing," and it's this: The official history of the Church, published in the 1930s, says that Joseph Smith used both the brown Seer Stone and the Urim and Thummim to translate.
In other words, the Seer Stone isn't new - the Church has been teaching this for a hundred years.
Where did you read that hermano? None of the first accounts say that and the prophet Joseph Smith always said he used the Urim & Thummin.
-Pure Lehite
@@scubed8671 I'm not the person you replied to, but when I look at the Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (published in 1930) it talks about the seer stone in Chapter 169. President Wilford Woodruff consecrated it on the altar of the Manti Temple during its dedication in 1888.
Yes, the first published account speaks of Joseph using "spectacles in a hat" which would refer to the Nephite interpreters. But one of the first accounts instead says he put a white stone into a hat (Cincinnati Advertiser, 2 June 1830)
Rather than "first" accounts, I think "first-hand" accounts are more valuable. What did people in the room with Joseph say he did? Joseph and Oliver said he used the Nephite Interpreters, but didn't say how he used them.
Joseph Knight said he put the Urim and Thummim (probably the interpreters) into a hat. Elizabeth Whitmer said he put the "directors" into a hat (could refer to either interpreters or seer stone). Michael Morse (Emma's brother-in-law) said he saw him use the seer stones in his hat.
In Emma's interview with Joseph Smith III, she says he translated with his stone in his hat. In an earlier letter, she said he initially translated with the Urim and Thummim, and then after Martin lost the 116 pages, she says he used a dark-colored stone. David Whitmer says the same-he acknowledges he wasn't around for Martin Harris' transcription, but that he understood that the angel took away the interpreters, and instead gave him a stone. David said he looked into it, but couldn't see anything.
Not quite first-hand, first published in 1881 long after his death, but probably worth mentioning since the Church published it and features prominently in the early discussion. Martin Harris related a story that Joseph would sometimes use the seer stone for convenience, and he swapped it out for an identical stone as a kind of "test" for Joseph.
Jonathan Neville obviously disagrees with these accounts, and that's okay: when presented with conflicting accounts, I'm sure there are many ways one may choose to resolve them. History is about picking up the pieces of what is left behind, and seeing how they fit together.
@@WooperSlim I really like you're way of putting this, because there are conflicting accounts. I'm okay with someone who says "Yeah, I don't think the evidence shows he used a seer stone." Like Jonathan Neville, I think he's wrong but I don't think he's stupid.
What I'm not okay with is people who say "The Seer Stone hypothesis is anti and if you believe it you've been duped." No, I've closely examined the evidence. It's way more complex than that. I also think it's clearly wrong to say "Scholars are manipulating the history." No, they're not. They're just following the evidence for something that's been around for a long time.
Yeahhh episodes like these remind me why cardon is the best lol. That Alex Jones impression was incredible lol
Jonathan Neville said Joseph Smith used the seer stone to "satisfy the awful curiosity of his followers". But not sure I agree with that. Joseph was known to say that every person gets a urim and thummim eventually. This implies that a "seer stone" and "urim and thummim" are one and the same. The Urim and Thummim is made of seer stones in reality. A Urim and Thummim is just a seer stone with metal frames for spectacles, or glasses. Just a possibility. You remove the polished rocks from the metal frames and you have a seer stone. This could be a bit like arguing if someone used pen or ink to write a translation. They are essentially parts or components of one object.
@@EKowallis Joseph said the earth itself would be a urim and thummim in its celestial state. In Revelation it describes the foundation as a "sea of glass", i.e. polished rock or like a crystal. A Urim and Thummim is polished rock like glass, and a seer stone is polished rock like glass. They are one and the same.
@@micahjoelm Perhaps they are one and the same but the Urim and Thummim are the only stones prepared by the Lord, hence White to represent purity. It is said that everyone will get their own Urim and Thummim eventually. This could be like some kind of supercharged cell phone. Think about this for a second. Your cell phone is made of clear glass and emits light. Isn't this very similar to a seer stone? But possibly as you say the Urim and Thummim serves a more holy purpose whereas a seer stone can be used for temporal purposes. I wouldn't say a cell phone by nature is wicked, but it can be used for wicked purposes.
The Urim and Thummim are gifts from the Lord passing on celestial material from the Celestial realm. Seer stones (as they are called) and even the 16 stones that the Brother of Jared fashioned and were miraculously lit by being touched by the Finger of the Lord are of earthly substance. There is a difference.
@@osml2499I would argue there could be no difference between "earthly" and "celestial" material on a fundamental level, although energy from a celestial material is of higher energy and light and in a higher order. Einstein taught us that all matter is light and energy. I also addressed that possibly the difference is that "seer" stones are for temporal purposes and holy purposes while a "Urim and Thummim" is for higher or holier purposes only. But they are both stones. But the question though is whether the seer stone can be used for good purposes like a Urim and Thummim? I would say yes it can. I would also suggest all Urim and Thummims are seer stones, but not all seer stones are Urim and Thummims. Like how all celestial planets are planets but not all planets are celestial planets.
@@micahjoelmYes, I see your point and I'm not even sure myself. But there is a scripture in D&C 121:37 which says "behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man."
I believe this is the same for the U&T and seer stones. U&T can have their power withdrawn unless it is for holy purposes. In other words, lets say Joseph Smith decides to use the U&T to do a business transaction that will make him rich rather than translating the Book of Mormon. Then the power is withdrawn either temporarily or permanently.
I believe the seer stone will work for temporal purposes as well. It is rumored that the seer stones were used to seek treasure and sometimes it worked but the treasure would disappear at the last moment. This is how Joseph had connections with Joseph Knight, who sought Joseph Smith for treasure seeking purposes. I guess I'm suggesting that the purpose and rules could be different for both but they are both just stones or seeing crystals at their fundamental level.
Discussed with acquaintance from Tanzania who is totally familiar with the challenges of tribal differences among a single race (i was fascinated my his explanation of how their government is organized to minimize tribal influence over governing of all), there really is NO such thing as racism, it's all tribalism.
4:25 you’re Alex jones impression is spot on Cardon!
Great points on the Gospel topics essays! Dang, so refreshing to hear. I feel like we are trying to appease some people.
Awesome Video and presentation thank you for Sharing !
Dang Cardon that was a great Alex J.
Not only does he write well after having done extensive research but he’s a great interview.
Holy crap! I had to look at my screen to see if that WAS Alex Jones lol
Nailed it, dude 👍
FIRST
and Joseph did nothing wrong
Yeah it was! His best impression I’ve heard! 😂 Good stuff.
Even Joseph would disagree with you.
@ snagret
Is Joseph your Idol? he told the saints there minds has become darkened because they relayed to heavily on him. Joseph changed vital revelation from the Book of commandments when the D&C was made, many of which seem self serving . Brighamy changed revelation and documents to support Polygamy, LDS Historians changing the narrative as well. Hold to the Book of Mormon and God if something doesn’t hold up to discernment and the stick of Joseph and David throw it out! Joseph said the same for they are imposters.
@@westonwoodbury3011 Have you ever heard of a joke?
It was David Whitmer's brother-in-law Hiram Page who used a stone that was not from God but was from Satan. DC 28: 11. There's a big difference here!
Wow! That is interesting. I'll have to check that out thanks.
The Alex jones impression was so good.
Cardon, best Alex Jones impression ever. I laughed so hard. Thanks for that.
Loving this interview and Cardon - you are a amazing Alex Jones
When Alex Jones and Jonathan Neville get together, I'm there!
Jon N is on target.
Alex Jones! Nailed it!! 😂
This is easy. Just ask Dirkmaat to come on and address this 🙂
"Martin Harris assisted with the translation in the spring of 1828. Martin said this. “By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written…and when finished he would say, 'Written,' and if correctly written, that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected.”"
I think the esteemed Mr. Neville's approach to historical analysis (confirmation bias walking on stilts and taking steroids) would rebut this with various words, ultimately to the effect of saying that the statements and testimonies of any and all people who were directly involved and participating in the events in question have to be ignored in favor of believing only Joseph Smith's and Oliver Cowdery's mentions of an object called the "Urim & Thummim"...an object that nobody else was allowed to see...yea, verily, an object that was whisked away to a storage room in heaven by a glow-in-the-dark-resurrected-angel-man named Moroni, so that nobody will ever be allowed to see it. I can't understand why you seem to be having a hard time accepting Mr. Neville's approach to historical analysis.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Thank You for taking the time to make me laugh. Better than anger!!!
If you’re gonna put quotes around some thing, you better say where it came from.
9:24 this is where I part company with Neville. I can accept that Joseph Smith was a prophet AND accept his fallibility. He himself said not everything he said was prophetic.
Amen.
Neville is a seer stone denier and makes things up. His position comes down to an argument of authority. JS and Cowdery downplayed the folk-magic elements of the BofM's origin, and suppressing the seer stone was part of their strategy. Neville has to resort to conspiracy to explain away all the eyewitnesses. His book is filled with poorly reasoned arguments and he invents a story that the eyewitnesses saw a one-time exhibition of the seer stone. He has no source or evidence. The Interpreters were not Urim and Thummim, but were closer to the seer stone than the U&T. So it didn't matter to JS which he used. They worked the same. The spectacles were too big.
The U&T was placed with the plates for a reason. The only "rocks" I read about were the ones placed to form the stone box. Your opinions are comple Bovine Excrement IMO 💩
Excellent!
The word you are looking for is “inaccuracies”, not lies, etc.
Everyone should keep all options I can't reject the Andes model with the hill Cumorah as Mt Imbabura in. Ecuador.
IT IS WAY OVERDUE TO HAVE JONATHAN NEVILLE AND JERRY GROVER ON THE SAME PODCAST. Let them reconcile each other’s arguments
Whatever the percentage of restoration history we have it would probably double if the church opened up the journals of William Clayton 🤷🏽♂️
Which raises the question why won’t they release them?? 🤷
What exactly in those journals does the church not want us to know??
Not to long ago Pres Oaks and Ballard said they haven't and are not hiding anything from the saints and they are being as honest as they know how to be. Are you accusing the brethren of hiding things and being dishonest?
Wonder what Moroni would have to say about this? I'm guessing he'd be shaking his head for a long while over the seerstone malarkey.
Yep mistakes of course will be part of the very best of us. The Heartland Model is not changed as the truth because of this fact.
Ignoring the argument of what the seer stone (urim/thummin) did or did not do. IF it did translate, I have been proposing for almost 20 years that it might just be a solar powered device, with a low intensity LED on one side and a scanner on the other Then, it is connected to a celestial equivalent of Google Translate. With no "power outlets", solar would be the ideal way to charge it. A low intensity LED might need to be shielded from direct light in order to see it. As celestial google translate, it would require context to pick the most relevant translation and then reorganize sentences in order to get it to sound appropriately. It might translate a sentence to: Self in the future does male parent obeying. Translator realizes: I will go and do what my father commands. But, the process is imperfect. If you say: When my father commands, I will obey and do. It means the same thing, but people who want a reason to cry foul, will. Because, you see, its different. It must be made up.
Yeah. It's really amazing when you think about it. The omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator of the universe and God over all that was, is and ever will be...can't do any better than relying on a clumsy "celestial" version of "g o o g le translate" --- only a bit worse. It's almost as bad as only being able to communicate "true" and "false" answers by way of an invisible ghost that triggers human feelings that are indistinguishable from non-ghost-triggered human feelings. But I guess the ghost-induced feelings method for "knowing" is preferable over requiring members of the church to buy Celestial Ouija Boards in addition to having to buy Celestial underwear. I mean the angel Moroni could haul physical objects like golden plates back and forth between heaven and earth. Why not just have a perfect book of scripture printed and bound in the Celestial Kingdom and deliver it to a reputable person on earth instead of having things done through a disreputable failed treasure hunt scammer. Of course I know the answer: "God works in mysterious ways"...and he still needs money, which can be delivered to God by way of forking it over to his appointed and anointed money managers who work in the Church Office Building.
@@micahjoelmNot that I know of. LOL. Are you feeling proselytized? But if you're interested in buying a Celestial Ouija Board, I may consider creating an appropriate religious cult to sell them...unless I can get a contract with the upper management of the COJCOLDS first. I really think something like that would be a great replacement for all the fun things that have been deleted from the temple rituals, like the penalties. Imagine an all-white Celestial Elijah Board, with a beautiful marble planchette, being used to receive messages in the temple and maybe even facilitate patriarchal blessings. "Too sacred to talk about, but I have to mention how I felt when the Elijah Board in the Celestial Room spelled out 'yes! yes! yes!' when I asked whether Cindy Lou was supposed to be my wife!"
@@micahjoelmAm I proselytizing? Not that I'm aware of. Doesn't proselytizing mean trying to convert people to a religion (usually from another religion)? I'm just trying to gently remind people that reality is still out here when they get finished exploring the maze of mist and mirrors in their religious fantasy-land theme park. Like, you know, have fun thinking about wizards, crystals, peepstones and magic rocks wired to a breastplate and a glow-in-the-dark angel who hauls golden plates back and forth between heaven and earth. But don't lose touch with reality. When you're finished, we'll be waiting for you out here in the real world with some sandwiches and hot postum...or even coffee...or green tea. Any beverage you desire.
I liked him talking about JS being crippled as a preparation period.
Absolutely love this man!
I’m glad to see the attention here- it’s about 10 years behind, but it’s catching on.
AJ would definitely be a heartlander, and I'd be fine with having him. AJ is not afraid of the truth!
Brother Carden's Alex Jones impression is impressive!! ❤
I'm trying to square the information in this video with the story of Martin Harris switching the seer stone with one he found on the river bank when Joseph took a break to skip stones. Didn't Joseph's distress and confusion about it not working as before solidify Harris' confidence in Joseph's claim? Was this story a lie?
I love this show…but let the guest speak 🙏🙏
Great video! Totally agree with the Urim & Thummim narrative FACT and how we should just stick with the Scriptures on that and the testimony of the ones who were actually THERE for the bulk of time of the translation: Joseph and Oliver. Never understood how that anti-mormon ridiculous rock in a hat thing caught on when the Urim & Thummim was specifically created and used by prophets and handed down, oh yeah I do, because of the words of those that apostatized and never came back, and who concocted a ridiculous idea with a ridiculous image. If the Urim & Thummim were good enough for the Brother of Jared (who saw the whole world and where 2/3 of the Book of Mormon is dedicated to his revelations) or King Mosiah, prophet and SEER, then certainly there's a reason for these interpreters, and they were specially prepared and sealed away in the box on Cumorah's hill by the prophet Moroni to SPECIFICALLY give these to Joseph Smith for HIS use. Seems so obvious, but anti-mormons will glob on to the dumbed down substitute because it fits their narrative of mocking.
Why is a seer stone ridiculous? Why are U&M stones attached to a breastplate not ridiculous?
Amén hermano Neville!!!
Whoops, Hannah Stoddard does not refute that Joseph had a seer stone she refutes that he used it to translate. She is on YT and says very clear that JS had a seer stone. Let’s not become so comfortable throwing stones that we start striking friendly fire those who state the same argument your making.
@6:00 Cardon, are you suggesting that “the church office building employees”, not the Brethren, were the driving force behind the church commissioning and publishing the gospel topics essays?
Awesome info!!!
Best guest! The More Jonathan Neville the better.
The seer stones were used for Revelation by Joseph Smith and more than martin emma and david saw it. It isnt a false narrative. This guy is the one manipulating church history.
So were joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey lying then? They always claimed that they used the Urim and Thumim, and that's it. So it seems like you are claiming that they are lying.
@@brentknudson311 Seer Stones ARE Urim and Thummim as well as the interpreters. Nobody was lying. Joseph used all of them at one point or another and not one particular method all the way through.
@@brentknudson311"So were joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdrey lying then? They always claimed that they used the Urim and Thumim, and that's it. So it seems like you are claiming that they are lying."
Because the Urim and Thummim and seer stones are the same. It is even mentioned in JSH 1:35 by Joseph Smith himself.
Cardon, what is the book name you are holding up at 10:50?
So now that the LDS church is finally coming clean this joker says now they are lying??😂 oh what a tangled web we weave!........
23:33 “Mechanism of translation” 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Interesting that you were fascinated by Jonathan Neville saying that historians have “manipulated church history to accommodate their own ideas” and yet when Michelle Stone is trying to convey the same thing she is laughed at and mocked.
Amen.
Michelle Stone refuses to believe that JS practiced POLYGAMY. This is in direct opposition to the official church narrative. But yet she has not been excommunicated. And if someone goes up on fast Sunday and Bears testimony that Joseph Smith used a stone and a hat They would be excommunicated within days
Because her claim is that the actual canon scriptures were manipulated to accommodate apostate practises from our early prophets. Quite a big difference in accusation, and historians have pretty easily shown that Joseph did preach and teach polygamy. I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.
I could have sworn he said "Garret Dirtnap" and I laughed
Jonathan, I love yours and Rod Meldrum's works! I have listened to every one of your interviews on TH-cam. You always do a great job explaining how JS III embraced U&T and plate translation and dismissed Emma's Last Testimony by not referring to it when he defended his father against David Whitmer's STITH claims to prove JS was a fallen prophet.; but you fail to mention another great point in your book, By Means of the U&T. In that book, you cited a letter Emma had written, nine years prior to her deathbed testimony , in response to her friend’s inquiry about BOM translation. In that letter Emma stated JS used the U&T and plates while translating the first 116 pages. She mentioned JS used a stone after that but she couldn't recall the details because she couldn't find her books or her copies of the Times and Seasons articles . This shows she wasn't a first hand witness to him doing that. It's also funny that in answering her friend's translation question, Emma's memory had failed her. Seems she had forgotten that she had sat hour after hour writing as Joseph dictated with his face buried in his hat as he read words off a stone. If she was able to remember those details so well on her deathbed, why wasn't she able to recall them when she wrote her response to her friend nine years earlier? Emma, herself, through this letter, discredits the reliability and credibility of her Last testimony.
Wow, Cardin! That Alex Jones impersonation is spot on.
What do you think about the donkey in the bible speaking and Christ healing the bible the rod turning into a serpent and all the miracles People forget With God all things are possible His ways are our ways with God all things are possible and these things He says to use to bring about miricles are to use faith first
Have Jonathan back but let him speak some more. Let him expound on his research.
23:10 AS I HAVE SAID MULTIPLE TIMES..... When Joseph was laid up after the surgery, what else could he do....READ READ READ....and NOT JUST "Christian Material"....BOOKS via Hyrum...and the Doctors from Dartmouth when they checked up on him. From His Father, the time to time school teacher. I agree with this guy that Joseph IMMERSED HIMSELF IN ANY BOOK HE COULD GET HIS HANDS ON......MAPS TOO!!!
Cardon! Sometimes you totally just 😂crack😂me😂up!!
Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees.
Cardon’s Alex Jones was *chef’s kiss*
except for the fact that we have a video of Pres Nelson demonstrating how Joseph used the hat with his seer sone in it. And we all know that that the Prophet only teaches truth to the saints and wouldn't lead them astray.
I get a kick out of the closed captions. This AI is not LDS. 😜
Way to spot on channel Alex jones! lol
Alma 37:23 "And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, A STONE, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations." Obviously, Joseph Smith had a thing for "seer stones". Not sure why heroic efforts are needed to pretend that Joseph Smith would not have used the "stone-in-the-hat" gimmick on occasion, or on most occasions, in connection with his "translation" work. "Shine forth in darkness unto light"...kind of like the story about needing to use a hat to see the glowing words appearing in the seer stone.
??????? "Joseph never claimed mastery, or even fluency in this language. Indeed, his wife Emma, who knew him best, said he, “could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter, let alone dictate a book like the Book of Mormon.” Young Joseph was an uneducated farmer. How then could he translate a record that he could not read? Therein lies a miracle."
He could if the person writing it down was the smart one and wrote Joseph's words down in a more intelligible way. I mean all you have is testimony. Nobody living today was there.
A+
BYU scholars maybe have their own agenda, but their own agenda for what??? The spirit tells me (especially reading their stuff) that they are evil.
Pure Lehite
Have things gotten better, or worse, since the faith crisis report and the Gospel Topic Essays. I'd say worse, for sure.
19:30.... WHAT WAS MARTIN HARRIS TALKING ABOUT WHEN HE TOLD HIS STORY ABOUT SWITCHING JOSEPH'S ROCK IN HIS HAT WITH ONE HARRIS PICKED UP AND SWAPPED????? Isn't that a "witness" to the Rock in the Hat METHOD???????????????
@@gandalftheblack4Virtually nothing in Mormonism has come to you as a "first-hand account". (Even the First Vision stories are not first-hand from Elo and Jeho. You have to trust one of the inconsistent, belatedly recalled versions told by Joseph Smith to someone who wrote down the accounts for Joseph Smith regarding what he was told by the beings that, according to him, appeared to him in a vision in the scraggly woods.
Neville here is really just repeating to a large extent the narrative concerning the translation that is contained in Chapter VII of New Witnesses for God, Vol II, by B.H. Roberts. Neville just lets his inner confirmation bias demons run wild by cherry picking what is credible (to him) and what is not credible (to him), in an ad-hoc, self-serving manner. In reality, virtually every statement made by any witness or participant in the events was made to someone who wrote down the statement. (And the same applies to most things that Joseph Smith ever said.) In this case, the Martin Harris statements are based on reports made by Edward Stevenson, a faithful Mormon (even an erstwhile Mission President) who wrote for the Millennial Star and the Deseret News. Stevenson asserts that the statements and stories came directly from Martin Harris's own mouth, referring to a visit by Martin Harris to SLC in 1870 and talks and interviews given by Harris. Stevenson personally went to Ohio to escort Martin Harris to Utah and spent two months with Martin Harris in the process. Stevenson is about as authoritative as you can get as to what Martin Harris may have said about things. David Whitmer's accounts are published directly in David Whitmer's self-published "An Address to All Believers in Christ" and fully corroborate the similar statements, recollections, etc. of numerous other people (e.g. Joseph Knight) who participated in the events in question regarding the use of a seer stone and a hat...and were friendly to Joseph Smith's cause and even highly invested in it. Neville is simply starting out with a (now contrarian) thesis and going through "evidence" like it's a box of chocolates. "I like this one. Yuck, don't like that one. Double yuck, throw that one away. Oooh! This one's nice!"
Bottom line: It's much ado about almost nothing. In one case you're talking about believing in a magic rock in a hat. In another case you're talking about believing in two magic transparent stones "set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate"... that only Joseph Smith could see (and which were hauled back to heaven by a glow-in-the-dark-resurrected-angel man named Moroni so that nobody would ever see them). Funny that people think the latter contraption is more dignified and credible because Joseph Smith called it the "Urim & Thummim".
10:35 "IT'S FINE THE WAY IT IS"???????? I thought he said The Essay was dead wrong?????
What about the story of Martin Harris switching the seer stone with a stone he found while they were translating?
I heard Neville address that story on I think Mormonism with the Murph about the book he and another guy wrote about the translation..? Basically his explanation of that story boiled down to Martin (or whoever first repeated that story) as being attuned to what makes a good story, knowing about the claims about the rock in the hat, and seeing an opportunity for a memorable translation tale.
Neville and his coauthor walked back through when that story first appeared and who repeated it and that sort of thing, which I have forgotten. They basically chalk it up to hearsay, if I am remembering their account correctly. (I like that story, too; I suppose I’d have to read Neville’s book to fully see why he thinks it’s just a story and nothing more.)
16:15 these are the same arguments Sherem used (e.g. the Church lost its way, etc) so it cycles quite a bit
John Delin is dangerous.
He isn't Jacob Hansen or Cwic dangerous, but you're right.
Joseph and Hyrum also ALWAYS said they were against polygamy in any form whatsoever, yet you swallow the lie that they orchestrated an underground polygamy ring. Funny list of priorities of you have in clearing up the historical record.
23:15 "Non Biblical Language in The Book of Mormon"????? WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought this guy said Joseph used the spectacle version of The Urim & Thummim to TRANSLATE THE PLATES??? BUT.....JOSEPH USED WORDS THAT HE HAD LEARNED???????????NOT THE WORDS THAT MAGICALLY APPEARED???????????? WTH!!!!!!??????????
Honest question… is it the same Urim and Thumim that is spoken of in the Old Testament?
Not sure. There is a lot we don't know from the OT. Speculation.
Neville’s statements are just as speculative or more so than any of the other LDS scholars. To dismiss Emma’s statements (she was his first scribe) as lies is ridiculous. Assuming he gets one, I wonder if Neville will throw his white stone away because it doesn't look like spectacles. 10 Then the white stone mentioned in Revelation 2:17, will become a Urim and Thummim to each individual who receives one, whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known; D&C 130.
Take it easy brother…he is not dismissing her statements as lies, he sounded like he is proposing that she might not remember correctly as an older woman because JS III didn’t even include them in his writing.
Christ wants us to be one. Bashing and contention are not of Him.
Then that puts him squarely in the speculation camp.
@@IntoAllTruth. Wait, how come you’re not one with me? 😊
One with Christ and the Father is what we are to become. Not One with everyone. Brother Neville is criticizing the Mormon Essays the Church has commissioned, claiming they are based on speculation while he offers the truth. But then offers his own speculation that Emma didn’t remember how her husband translated the Book of Mormon. I have no problem with his criticisms but he claims his statements are based in fact while everyone else is basing their statements on “speculation”.
I hear you, with his background he has a certain strategy, not aware of “other places” where he speculates. It’s a puzzle that he, and others are trying to piece together. It’s a lot of statements and writings and here say from 200 years ago so obviously there’s speculation. It just felt like you not giving him a chance when he is presenting his argument. Are you a meso guy? Either way it doesn’t matter how the plates were translated, but is an interesting subject.
5:45..... Cardon is jealous of John Dehlin....happens all the time.
I have known this before this b.s.,has been an issue. And I'm 49.
We have Martin, Emma, Samuel smith, Oliver who helped Joseph scribe him translating. Out of all these you only trust Oliver’s and Joseph’s statement, why? Because of Emma’s age? To paint a picture of her like she was loosing her mind is inaccurate and denigrating to her testimony. I think David Whitmer is very compelling witness to the early church in general, even though he was commanded by God to separate himself from the church and has big problems with some of Joseph moves in the restoration, Emma said she believed he could be trusted! Joseph gave him some awesome blessings, David even prophesied to Joseph and Rigdon and warned them, which all came true. Any books that you could recommend or documents that give us a better understanding of why all the witnesses of the Book of Mormon fell away , besides the Smiths? And why like half the apostles did? I love Joseph, and have generally given him greater credibility then the rest, but no doubt he made some big mistakes, changed essential revelation found in the Book of Commandments, that changed the very nature of Christ church and perhaps is part of the reason the Lord removed his name from the church in 1834.
How much of the temple ordinance is left?
Enough of it.
@@rconger24"Enough of it"....meaning that all the deleted stuff was unnecessary? Whatever it is today is all that is needed and if 50% of that is deleted by the end of the next decade, then that remnant will be "enough". Eventually, it will just be a bunch of naked people standing around the altar wearing green aprons and chanting "O Lord!". And that will obviously be "enough". The great thing about the "ongoing restoration" is that it mainly consists of deleting the things that previously were claimed to be essential parts of "the restoration". Gotta just love Mormonism! It's so trippy and illogical. Who needs mushrooms???!!!
But wait a minute, wasn't the GTE approved by the prophet? Even Nelson put his head in a hat!!!!!
@@asdfgh9007 Does the mormon prophet know when god is talking to him? Or do they not want to say so, since then their prophecy can be held to a high standard?
@@asdfgh9007Obviously, Mr. Neville knows more than the Prophet Russell M. Nelson about things like the method by which the Book of Mormon was translated. But Russell M. Nelson knows more about how sad, hurt and disappointed Jesus is when people use the nickname "Mormon" to refer to the Church of Jesus. It's a victory for Satan.
6:45.... Did Cardon take his meds today????
too much second hand, speculation and filling in the blanks...especially from an attorney. Whether Joseph used the urim and thumin, a seer stone in a hat, nothing at all...or all of the above, doesn't matter. Ultimately, he received the translation directly thorugh the spirit...not the tools. That is why he couldn't translate after the loss of the 116 pages. Throwing shade on the Church gospel topics essays and trusted organizations like The Intrpreter shows some serious weakness. Good interview though, thanks for hosting it.
20:40 That's called racialism, not racism
Doesn't ring true to me... sorry.
8:40.... "they say"...??? WHO IS THEY?????? Prophet Nelson says it was The Rock in a Hat Method.....THE CHURCH SAYS IT WAS. So this guy is saying The Church, The Prophet, are lying??? or Ignorant????
The Lord our God gave the "Gift" of "these two stones" to the Brother of Jared on Mt. Shelem before he came to the Land of Promise on the barges. They were not of the 16 stones that the Lord touched with His finger to produce a source of light - they were separate. The Lord provided those same interpreters to the Nephite prophets (at least beginning with Mosiah - father of Benjamin). The Lord declared in D&C 17:1 that the Urim & Thummim that Joseph Smith had were the very same stones. It is an insult to the Lord to suggest that after all of His watching over and bringing forth those 2 stones, kept in bow and attached to a breastplate, to the latter-day, He allowed Joseph to ditch them in place of some seer stone! It DID NOT happen! The Book of Mormon was translated by the same Celestial Gift and the Power of God that was used by King Mosiah to translate the 24 plates. It was His gift and His purpose. Our scholars are utter fools! Blasphemous fools!
Unfortunately, it's not 100% clear that the Nephite interpreters were not part of the 16 stones touched by the Lord. It makes just as much sense that they were. An analogy is found in Talmudic commentary, where Noah had a stone (tzohar--"window") that he used for light in the ark. In those commentaries, this same stone also made its way onto the ephod used by the Levites, which, according to tradition, would indicate revelation by illuminated writing on the stones themselves.
There is significant evidence that seer stones can play a role in receiving light and truth, which you seem to reject outright. If this were not the case, the revelations from Hiram Page's seer stone would have been declared blasphemous foolishness, without the need to be verified by the Lord.
I think it's much more problematic to the Joseph Smith narrative to say that all use of seer stones are blasphemous, then to acknowledge their power in the right hands.
@@micahjoelm Ether 3:23. After the Lord had touched and illuminated the 16 stones, the Lord is instructing the Brother of Jared and says "And behold, these two stones will I give unto thee..." The Lord passed on from the Celestial realm celestial material (the Urim & Thummim) to the Brother of Jared on this mount. The miracle of the 16 stones was lighting earthly material touched by the Finger of God. The interpreters are the Lord's gift of celestial substance to man. That is why they have been under such strict charge over the centuries. I do not not know anything about seer stones (as they are called). I do not say that they are blasphemous. I say that those who believe that the Book of Mormon was translated using one in place of the Lord's gift are blasphemous.
As a fellow truth seeker I appreciate your views. I do offer a word of caution regarding the notion that all scholars have pure intent. There are those with a dark agenda and in a coming day they shall be exposed. Have a wonderful day.
The Heartland Model proponents should win the 'manipulating history' reward hands down:
A prime example is David Read's book "Face of a Nephite", which tries to rewrite the entire ancient history of North America by turning the Kennewick man into a Nephite from the Book of Mormon.
We don't need to completely rewrite sound scientific research on ancient history to show plausibility of the Book of Mormon, once we realize how small the Old World immigrant groups were and the fairly limited area of their spheres of influence, and are open minded enough to consider any place in the Americas that fits the limited textual descriptions in the book itself, while being open minded enough to think outside the box of previous outdated assumptions on Book of Mormon geography.
So when the Heartland model proponents accuse modern LDS scholars of manipulating history, they don't have much of a leg to stand on, credibility-wise, when their entire philosophy is geared towards distorting sound science and history into something that will support their very strict literalist views on historical accounts in the scriptures and their literalistic and intent focus on very selective cherry-picked statements of past church leaders on such topics (historical accounts) to the complete exclusion of those other scriptures and past and current leaders' statements that don't agree with their theories.
Use your Alex Jones voice for now on.