Part 1: Debunking Rough Stone Rolling's Treasure Digging Sources with REAL Data | Vidcast
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- See Part 2: • Part 2: Debunking Roug...
If you have questions, please send us an email at truejosephsmith@gmail.com.
Was Joseph Smith a treasure digger? Did he dabble in magical and occultic practices? In Rough Stone Rolling, Richard Bushman advocated a new progressive interpretation of Joseph Smith, depicting him as being involved in ritual magic and using peep stones to find treasure. What if we fact-checked Bushman's sources against verifiable and quantifiable data?
For sources and additional information referenced, see Faith Crisis 2: Behind Closed Doors. Read the first two chapters for FREE! josephsmithfoundation.org/fait...
In this vidcast, L. Hannah Stoddard presents careful research and analysis of the available historical data published by Donald L. Enders with the intent of fact-checking Mormonism Unvailed and other slanderous reports, circulated early on against Joseph Smith and his family. Enders realized that by evaluating the scientific data, he could likely either authenticate, or disprove, their accounts. In this trailblazing research, he examined “[l]and and tax records, farm account books and correspondence, soil surveys, and interviews with archeological reports, historic building surveys and interviews with agricultural historians and specialists of early nine-teenth-century New York.”
The long-awaited results of Enders’ research would have a decisive impact on the truth claims surrounding Joseph Smith and the Church. If the testable claims in Mormonism Unvailed were proven fraudulent, it would serve as a decisive blow to the progressive, New Mormon narrative.
![[MPD직캠] 베이비몬스터 치키타 직캠 4K 'LIKE THAT' (BABYMONSTER CHIQUITA FanCam) | @MCOUNTDOWN_2024.6.13](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/h99J4vWm7Ew/mqdefault.jpg)
Hurlbutt had a huge motivation to discredit Joseph Smith in any way he could, anger. He was angry for being caught in his sins, then excommunicated. He was out for blood, literally. Can we believe then, that he was legitimate in his claims? I can’t believe that he was.
Esp since the Spaulding affidavits look kind of silly now, of which he was involved in.
Thank you, Hannah, for all you and the Joseph Smith Foundation are doing to clear up the fog. It’s really helping me sort through some of my own questions.
The work Hannah is doing is amazing. It's not easy to be a public speaker. She is an expert, or perhaps it's the holy spirit helping her. I just know I feel the Spirit when listening to it.
I have been misrepresented and falsely accused twice in my life that I'm aware of. Once in middle school a boys money was stolen. The actual thief blamed me and the vice principal interrogated me multiple times throughout the day until the thief was found out. There was nothing I could do to convince him otherwise until the actual perpetrator was found out. The second time I was falsely accused was of a young Bishop hell-bent on finding out who in the ward was writing unkind notes and placing it on a neighbors door. My heart broke as this Bishop sent his counselors to my home and he himself later exploded in anger yelling the question "did you do it?" I know what it's like to be misrepresented. If you have an enemy, do you honestly think he cares about truth if his desire is to harm you in anyway he can? Here I had two leadership figures, a vice principal and a young Bishop both of whom I suspect have integrity. And even they couldn't get their image correct that they had of me. How can we believe the accusations of someone who lived contrary to virtuous principals in regards to his narrative concerning Joseph Smith? I'm sorry, but Ive learned from life experience that one person's truth can be far from reality.
I converted in 1998 and I am less active now but I do not doubt my testimony of the book of mormon or of joseph smith
Please return fully. We need you! And you need the Lord.
Ok was inactive for years, because of a perceived hurt. And I was told by the holy Ghost. It was me. I was blown away. And once I accepted this. I was further shocked when I saw the truth of it. Not saying this is you. Just telling how I finally came back, and haven't left since.i was shown that I wasn't perfect, and neither is anyone in the church including our leaders. And I was shown where the Lord doesn't have perfect leaders, but instead uses imperfect leaders to get the truth and love of our Lord and Savior and our father in heaven has for us.
this girl is brilliant!
🙏 Thanks Hannah Stoddard for being a great defender of the truth. I love all the books and videos the Joseph Smith Foundation have put together, they really are amazing and faith promoting; hopefully many more people will discover the gems of truth contained in them.
You are an LDS treasure! Too bad so many are listening to the “false prophets” of progressivism that is leading so many away from the truth!
The Bible doesn't call Satan the "accuser" for nothing. Baseless accusations is all he has.
What is your opinion of the Church, on their official website, quoting these new Mormon historians you don't approve of?
@tenchi586, I'm a little disappointed.
They are deceived, we know they are capable of that after the mark hoffman stuff
You are absolutely amazing. Your fight for the truth is so welcomed.
What’s wrong with treasure hunting; one of my sons has always been searching, hunting for shiny objects at any given sea side, trip so worth; there is nothing wrong with some obsession to find things of value for some people; it’s a personality trade like some have the urge to read everything comes their way;
You are right on, (mining) the real term for gold and silver digging has been going on since time began!!!!
Is this book not sold at Deseret Book?
Many people (members of the church) publish books under Deseret books. Know WHO the author is before buying.
Yes, it’s at Deseret Book :/
Great work keep it up
I don’t understand. The church first presidency has approved the Gospel Topics Essays, located on the church’s official site. One of these church approved essays states that JS was involved in treasure digging, minimizing his involvement. Another essay states he used the seer stone and hat. What is the debate exactly?
What is your source for Hurlbut?
I know this is old, but your last question caught my eye. What do you mean by the sources for Hurlbut? For his affidavits, his character, his court case vs JS? I guess I'm just trying to understand what you are trying to figure out about Hurlbut
I believe they will be held accountable for defaming Joseph Smith and believe these may have been the same people that would have cast Jesus out. They seem intent on deceiving and if they are causing people to leave the Church that's their fruits.
Thank you JSF.
I have BOTH of your Faith CRISIS books and recommend them often to members struggling with their testimony.
What is her Faith Crisis Book?
Keep up the good work Hanna
Hannah: Thank you! Will do!
Thank you Hannah!
So did he search for treasure or not? And why is that wrong? If I was poor, I would want to search for gold and silver. Joseph later admitted that his treasure seeking was wrong. I for one never had a problem with it.
See Part 2 for evidence debunking the treasure digging 'sources.' th-cam.com/video/2hByMA4BP28/w-d-xo.html Joseph Smith, nor his family, ever declared that they had an interest or a career in money digging. Instead, during the 1830s, in the midst of heated persecution, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery denounced claims that the Prophet once had a career in treasure digging. Oliver Cowdery published a rebuttal to those accusations in 1835, explaining that Joseph had been employed as a “common labourer” by Josiah Stowell, who required him to work with other men digging and searching for an old Spanish mine. Stowell believed the legends of Spanish treasure circulating about the area, and had begun digging for the mine before Joseph was hired. In the end, Joseph finally succeeded in convincing Stowell to cease the foolish venture. Joseph Smith himself repudiated claims that he was involved in treasure digging:
"In the month of October Eighteen hundred and twenty five I hired with an old Gentleman, by name of Josiah Stoal who lived in Chenango County, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquahanah [sic] County, State of Pensylvania [sic], and had previous to my hiring with him been digging in order if possible to discover the mine. After I went to live with him he took me among the rest of his hands to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money digger." (Joseph Smith History, 1838-1856, volume A-1, p. 7-8, Joseph Smith Papers; Joseph Smith, "History of Joseph Smith," Times and Seasons 3, no. 13, May 2, 1842, p. 772, Joseph Smith Papers.)
Implied in this statement is that Joseph Smith’s employment under Josiah Stowell was his only interaction with money digging. If we believe the Prophet Joseph Smith to be an honest man, we ought to take him at his word. Now, we have data-based evidence to debunk the idle rumors and gossip being spread by some of the Smith's old neighbors, claiming the family was involved in treasure digging. To learn more, watch Part 2 (th-cam.com/video/yMV_CDKp2BM/w-d-xo.html) or check out the 'Faith Crisis' series (josephsmithfoundation.org/store/product/faith-crisis-volume-1-we-were-not-betrayed).
I do not doubt the prophet joseph smith or the book of mormon and I am ok with church history the good and the bad and it doesn't change my testimony of the gospel or the church
I feel the Spirit when she speaks. I don't when I am told Joseph was a lazy treasure digger that swindled other treasure hunters out of their $ he charged them to say where the treasure was. Then said reason why they didn't find it was because they didn't sacrifice a chicken the right way. I never believed that. Could have Joseph looked for treasure from time to time? Maybe that hasn't been revealed to me. I know he was hired to dig for treasure before he met Emma. But lazy? No that is ignorant to think. Joseph was not lazy. Witchcraft? No I don't believe that either. Seer stone maybe but if it was by the power of God it matters nothing to me if it was a seer stone or the Urim and Thumim or what way it came as ling as it was from God. One thing I do think is we have to have and seek further Spiritual Witness from The Holy Ghost so that we are not deceived into thinking Joseph was evil. Or for that matter Brigham or any of the Prophets of Christ. I know The Book of Mormon is true. Despite all I don't understand about Brigham and Joseph I know both were Prophets of God. Despite some things that President Nelson has done I know he too is a Prophet of God a mouth piece for Christ. All of Christ's Prophets were worthy good men and Joseph was a great Prophet among great Prophets. He was not perfect and was NOT Christ but he was a faithful witness, servant and friend to Christ.
Me too! The Spirit is strong with her!
Will you release transcripts of the videos?
This is like asking Judas who betrayed Christ for an accurate portrayal of Him.
The one thing LDS members AND non members alike need to keep in mind is that Christ is the one who organized the church! Even Moroni chastized Joseph Smith, but that did not negate who Christ chose to use for restoring the church. Joseph Smith is not the final source of truth. Christ restored his church and no man can take that away! The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true regardless if mankind doesn't believe it!
Love seeing Hyrum Andrus at 13 min ! :) I might be Biased
A lie is a lie in any form, type or shape. The only problem in finding the truth is that once a lie has been told over and over again for more than a century, eventually, a lie will become or people will believe it to be true.
God it is not a God of confusion!
Okay. So I've gotta chime in here. This isn't a "new narrative." And it's not really a debate. Joseph Smith himself said it best: "'Was Joseph Smith not a money digger?' Yes, but it was not a very profitable job for him, as he only got fourteen dollars a month for it."
This quote is in Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, as compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, which was published in 1938. This flies in the face of this video's claim that the Church needs to "rewrite its narrative." The narrative the entire time has been that Joseph Smith was involved in treasure hunting as a teenager. He looked back on it as a youthful error, and he responded to accusations about his past with humor. I don't understand what the hangup is here.
Hi Zach, Here is some clarification to help. We understand that the narrative being promoted by progressive historians today reflects these claims but they are not substantiated by the historical record. First, see Part 2 for evidence debunking the treasure digging 'sources.' th-cam.com/video/2hByMA4BP28/w-d-xo.html Joseph Smith, nor his family, ever declared that they had an interest or a career in money digging. Instead, during the 1830s, in the midst of heated persecution, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery denounced claims that the Prophet once had a career in treasure digging. Oliver Cowdery published a rebuttal to those accusations in 1835, explaining that Joseph had been employed as a “common labourer” by Josiah Stowell, who required him to work with other men digging and searching for an old Spanish mine. Stowell believed the legends of Spanish treasure circulating about the area, and had begun digging for the mine before Joseph was hired. In the end, Joseph finally succeeded in convincing Stowell to cease the foolish venture. Joseph Smith himself repudiated claims that he was involved in treasure digging:
"In the month of October Eighteen hundred and twenty five I hired with an old Gentleman, by name of Josiah Stoal who lived in Chenango County, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquahanah [sic] County, State of Pensylvania [sic], and had previous to my hiring with him been digging in order if possible to discover the mine. After I went to live with him he took me among the rest of his hands to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money digger." (Joseph Smith History, 1838-1856, volume A-1, p. 7-8, Joseph Smith Papers; Joseph Smith, "History of Joseph Smith," Times and Seasons 3, no. 13, May 2, 1842, p. 772, Joseph Smith Papers.)
Implied in this statement is that Joseph Smith’s employment under Josiah Stowell was his only interaction with money digging. If we believe the Prophet Joseph Smith to be an honest man, we ought to take him at his word. Now, we have data-based evidence to debunk the idle rumors and gossip being spread by some of the Smith's old neighbors, claiming the family was involved in treasure digging. To learn more, watch Part 2 (th-cam.com/video/yMV_CDKp2BM/w-d-xo.html) or check out the 'Faith Crisis' series (josephsmithfoundation.org/store/product/faith-crisis-volume-1-we-were-not-betrayed).
Second, the position of the Church for over 190 years was that Joseph Smith was not involved with treasure digging or ritual magic. Richard Bushman and other historians admit this and acknowledge that their narrative is different from the "dominant narrative" of the past.
Third, Joseph Smith never "looked back on it as a youthful error." There are no historical sources for that claim.
I bought that book in Desert Books and left the church.
I think right now there is a more serious stumbling block in conversation now within the very active saints of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is the concern over the validity of polygamy. Was polygamy really a principal Brigham young carried out or was it truly Joseph smith? There is a debate that Joseph smith had received the revelation for sealings and was sealing everyone to himself. That polygamy was actually an attempt to understand the sealing revelation. There is a lot of validity to this debate and I have lost many friends to this thread. I have researched both arguments to a point but really don’t have the knowledge, training and time to take this on. Being incredible historians! Can you please take this on?
See this TH-cam video recently released by one of our supporters! Did Joseph Smith Fight Polygamy? The Resurrection of an Old RLDS Narrative th-cam.com/video/8-o-NXxHl_o/w-d-xo.html
And Sheri Dew refuses to remove it from Deseret Book shelves. Says a lot about Sheri Dew's motives and convictions.
Excellent!
I was eager to listen to this “debunking” but come to find out after almost 30 minutes I have to buy the book to find out. This is nothing more than a 30 minute infomercial for their product. I guess I have to pay money to find out how they claim to debunk the “money digging” narrative.
EVERYBODY DUG FOR TREASÙRE... LIKE WE USED TO.. HUNTING FOR POP BOTTLES AND OLD BIKES..
This myth is debunked in the book Seer Stone v. Urim & Thummim.
Sadly Bushman lost his credibility and I quit reading his books.
Maybe I'm just blessed to have a strong testimony but I see it very simply. Is the church true, yes or no. If yes, what has the prophet said? That will be the truth. If no, then I decide if I can live with it or not. What we must all remember is that anyone can say what they want to about the prophet and even make it sound good but we have been given our testimonies through various experiences and those things that we've gone through have not magically disappeared or been altered and are still valid and in force today. Even if, by some dark twist of fate, these allegations turned out to be true, it does not alter the fact that the church is true.
When is Part 2 coming out? Really excited!
Part 2 is now available here: th-cam.com/video/2hByMA4BP28/w-d-xo.html
I don’t think Joseph was a treasure digger and definitely not in the occult. That said, Christ associated with those deemed the scum of their society in his day and he lifted them up. Just because the world says people are scum doesn’t mean they are.
Thank goodness this is not an issue for me and to me it doesn't matter if he was or not. Doesn't shake my faith.
God can use who He wants to bring forth His work...He did it in the scriptures...none of the prophets were perfect...they all had their struggles...God has to work with us...imperfect people...they are human...it's that simple to me.
Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple.
We humans complicate it and twist it to our own selfish needs...at times.
Which causes confusion.
Seems to me that some of these scholars are practicing priestcraft...
I was a convert and everything about this gospel makes more sense to me then anything else.
I know what I know.
It's up to each individual to gain their own testimony.
Why can't President Nelson just end the debate by using his prophetic power to tell what actually happened? Or any of the other 14 seers and revelators?
Because other Prophets, including Joseph Smith and Brigham Young already has told what happened. From there it is more a matter of who to believe.
Great topics, however takes for ever to get to the point, lots of fluff, and very repetitive.
Good work by JS Foundation. 2nd Nephi 27: 16 reveals the same spirit by which we got here.
R. Bushman: "I have to trust these stories."
H. Stoddard: "People lie."
Looking forward to part 2.
This is wonderful! Hannah, you were born for this day❣️
I feel you tone is mocking those that have serious concerns.
Awesome as usual.
Thank you for this gift. I have been aware of these issues for some time. They never sat right with me and now I have some of the important background information. Looking forward to part two.
Please don't keep us waiting for too long for part 2. There are a lot of unanswered question hanging with this presentation. Here in the Midwest, I know of very few people who have heard of this "Progressive" movement you're saying is such a hot issue. Is it hot just in Utah and CA?
Today, (May 2,) on LDS living Richard Bushman is quoted. If he is apostate and a renegade, then why is he quoted by a church magazine? Why has the Church not made a comme t? Why does the Church have him on the main editorial board of theJosephSmith papers?
I'm a little confused by your mission. Are you trying to "save" and clarify for people this problem OR are you trying to make this issue bigger than it needs to be? What are your motives if in the end, "it doesn't matter?"
Unfortunately, I think there will be people like me that have questions come up just because you bring this up. I find it unsettling.
All that said, please note I have been through your podcasts and some of your website and I am greatly impressed with your work. I just don't like the feelings of contention I'm feeling listening to this most recent vidcast.
Like I said, ease don't keep us waiting too long for part 2.
Part 2 will be released tomorrow. Stay tuned!
Part 2 is now available here: th-cam.com/video/2hByMA4BP28/w-d-xo.html
Nicely summarized. Looking forward to Part 2
Part 2 is now available here: th-cam.com/video/2hByMA4BP28/w-d-xo.html
Hanna, what is the value in bringing John Dehlin into the debate when he is not the source of the info. The problem is not that John Dehlin says JS was a treasure seeker, the bigger problem is that the 15 Apostles and prophets admit JS was a treasure seeker and used seer stones. The Essay on Translation Method is clear about this. Your issue really is with members and leaders of the church.
Your efforts here and other places will be better received if you can focus on the first hand or second hand accounts. I personally would like to hear your thoughts on the “Trial” documents and accounts.
You say this false information is leading people out of the church. It really is a huge problem. Donald L Enders is on the Ensign Peak Board (clearly he has some clout) and it sounds like you and he are on the same page. You should use his influence to get a meeting with the brethren so you can get the narrative back in the direction.
I don't feel like this video took a stance on anything.
I really enjoyed RSR and remain a true believer. Seeing JS as both a prophet and a mortal drew me closer to him.
Bushman is one of those clowns who wants people to THINK he is so smart, but he is not.
Thank you! Such important information. I hope everyone will see this information.
From the official LDS website: "Book of Mormon Translation " (Gospel Topics)
"The other instrument, which Joseph Smith discovered in the ground years before he retrieved the gold plates, was a small oval stone, or “seer stone.” As a young man during the 1820s, Joseph Smith, like others in his day, used a seer stone to look for lost objects and buried treasure. As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture."
Using "seer stones" to magically look through the ground to find buried treasure is either a scam or an occult practice. The Bible condemns divination (Dueteronomy 18:10, 1st Samuel 15:23).
Try to ask the father in law of Joseph Smith about the treasure digging.
Many years ago, I started reading Bushman’s book A Rough Stone Rolling, but could not even finish the first chapter. Through the spirit, I was prompted to stop reading the book. I did not know why at the time, but I have since learned why I should not waste my time. I do not trust any information that Bushman has written about Joseph Smith. I do not care if Bushman is the expert on early Mormon history and Joseph Smith. I personally have known individuals who have had a faith crises because of Bushman’s book. I prefer to spend my time reading the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is life changing.
Michael became Adam, because of his vigor in defending the truth in the war in heaven, you are the modern Eve of the same vigor.
"New narrative" LoL.
It's the time for someone to stand up for what is Real and Historical
Hooray for the Joseph Smith Foundation!
In the case of "Doctor" Philastus Hurlbert, we now truth that sometimes people are motivated to bear false witness. Not all data must be weighed the same. Thus us where Bushman missed the boat! Even wonderful scholars can be caught in the webs of citation cartels.
I’ve read “Rough Stone Rolling” a couple of times. It’s a good book. I bought it at Deseret Book.
I don’t honestly care about treasure digging. Treasure digging among farmers in the 19th Century is comparable to driving to Preston to blow $40 on PowerBall tickets. Just not a big deal.
Effeminate men aren’t leaving the Church over Richard Bushman. Men are leaving the Church because they are lazy, cheap, purchase Little Caesar’s Pizza, show up late to sacrament meetings, wear obnoxious beards, drive Toyota Prius’s, and never take their clothing to the dry cleaners. Millennial girls enable these effeminate men.
Are people leaving cause they say the church lied? Or are they leaving based on that Joseph really was a treasure digger?
Is it wrong to hit “like” before I’ve finished the video? 😅
This video debunks nothing. It is just a declaration of your disagreement with historical evidence without any supporting data. You wasted 30 minutes of my time when i was willing to hear you out. Bad form.
Love it! It brings the truth to life!
This was 25 min of stating the facts are wrong without ever providing a counter point....."hey it's in our book you should buy it." The truth will set you free, and it is free. Also your use of "scum" and "excommunicated crazies" is so dismissive, belittling, and further entrenches the us vs. them narrative so prevalent in the church.
Rewatch the video. She was saying that other Christians are bothered by these claims and they are asking the question of how Joseph Smith could be a true prophet while associating with the scum of society. This is what others are wondering, not her words.
Oh Hannah. Stop the nonsense and try a different religion that requires less effort to validate itself.
Rough Stone Rolling is WRONG! I support the Joseph Smith Foundation!
Bushman didn't create "this new narrative" and it isn't new. I've read Rough Stone... and found it interesting but not earth shaking, nor did I see it and Bushmans presentation as you have characterized it.
So how did you come to call yourself "Joseph Smith Foundation" and are you a "Urim and Thummim Only" believer? Are you a descendant of Brother Joseph? Is Urim and Thummim Onlyism an article of faith for you? Yes, that is intended to be a serious question.
You’re comparing your data compared to a man who literally has access to church archives 😂😂😂. If he was lying I think they would deny him access to those.
We are better off coming to terms with the truth a deciding to be members based on the truth instead of trying to make Joseph smith a non human.
A lot of words to say absolutely nothing
Bright young woman but over talks instead of getting to the point.
Talking about “real scientific facts”? Religion has nothing to do with Science. I’m sorry, on which day did god create dinosaurs?
She clearly is brain washed, or she is just plain LIEING.
Or is that you lying???? Pray tell