The Top 3 Arguments The Book of Mormon Took Place in America! (feat. Jonathan Neville)
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I only started reading the Book of Mormon after stumbling across a video with Wayne May talking about the Heartland theory. I eventually realized it to be true and recently got baptized.
Congratulations man! Welcome to the restored gospel! We’re glad to have you!
@@seanevans7629 thanks. The wife and our two oldest children are going to be baptized in a couple weeks. I’m trying to be home on the weekends more but will definitely be attending sacrament services on the road from time to time
@@cottoncountrytrucker2087 dude that’s awesome! Big changes for your family!! I hope for the best for y’all!
Welcome, that's awesome!
Wow that’s awesome
Release the full cut!! We want the rest of the interview!!!
I highly recommend becoming a member. You get so much more content, including more of this discussion.
Agreed. Waiting to hear what the top three arguments were as stated in the title of this video…
Being from Missouri I found it interesting Book of Mormon mentions “whirlwinds” and “shafts in the whirlwind”, very obviously referencing tornados.
Tornados are iconically a Midwest trait.
Except it’s referencing whirlwinds created by volcanos.
@@cameron9643
Helaman 5:
12 And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, *which whirlwinds are created by volcanos in mesoAmerica* yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.
Woa that’s crazy, never noticed that before.
why are you so militant? You are using this as evidence for tornadoes in Missouri? Thats what's crazy. Yes volcanoes can cause whirlwinds. There is evidence of this. Google is your friend. @@KylonRic
The Hopewell have the most connections to the Nephites out of anyone. I'd bet on them being the source of the Book of Mormon.
Agreed
The latter-day prophets have said most of the natives of North and South America have the Blood of Lehi. Why is it being forced into one tribe?
@@BrianTerrill it’s just an interesting thing that the Hopewell tribes have DNA evidence. I think people just like this because it’s a second witness of the truthfulness of the BoM alongside the Spirit
@CutlassofLaban DNA doesn't prove geography. If you do find Cornish DNA in Grass Valley, California, it doesn't mean Grass Valley California is the true location of Cornwall England. It means something else, like a mass migration.
The Book of Mormon already tells us of a mass migration northward from the core Book of Mormon lands.
But, I don't put my faith in DNA analysis from people like Rod Meldrum. He stretches his facts so bad, he's even discussed how wheat doesn't grow in Guatemala even though Guatemala I'd one of the highest exporters of wheat in the world. The problem is, he's appealing to people who won't fact-check or who don't know how to fact check, to the point here we are being told "driven snow" only exist in the Great Lakes Region, and can't possibly be known in Central America, never-ending Nephi had that vision while in the Arabian Wilderness near the Red Sea
@@BrianTerrill Because the Nephites would have been forcing themselves into one tribe as they were living the Law of Moses for most of their history, which involved not intermixing with the gentiles, basically keeping more to themselves. Intermixing would have been allowed after Christ visited the Americas, and more of the blood of Lehi could then spread throughout all of the Americas. However, because there would have been such a long history of not intermixing with other cultures and you don't find entire populations moving to completely different regions, we could expect to see the highest concentration of Lehi's blood to be in the same region where the Nephites lived. Haplogroup X is evidence of that concentration in the Eastern United States. There should be less of a concentration where the Lamanites lived because they would be more apt to breaking the Law of Moses and intermixing with other cultures, which is what we see. The concentration is more northward where the Nephites are believed to have lived in the Heartland Model.
D&C written in the heartland. It doesn't mention snow as a weather event. NOT ONCE.
Sorry mate Sections 110 and 117 mention snow. And not just the Lorenzo kind.😊
@@renickgreen proper name and metaphor. Not the cold wet stuff weather.
New Testament doesn't mention snow (other than as a metaphor like BofM). Yet during a tour of Paul's travel's in Turkey, we awoke to a blizzard. Does that mean Paul didn't travel to Turkey? Or is it simply that the scriptures don't talk much about the weather?
Remember what we have is an abridged portion that multiple authors said wasn't even 1/100th of the info. Is it really any wonder they didn't use precious space to write about the weather? What they DO say, however, is that there were animals that migrated. That doesn't happen in a place without seasons. Also, if you study their war patterns they are cyclical. Wars would most often be fought seasonally as well, not all year long like they would be in a warmer climate.
I served a mission in Cincinnati Ohio. I met a woman there who was Wyandotte. She told us the story of a legend they had where a white God visited them and it was just like the story of the Book of Mormon with small differences. For instance he healed a deer.
I think the answer is in the text of the Book of Mormon. How did they build? They dug up earth making a ditch and put timbers on top. The Hopewell built structures this way. I think the idea that the Book of Mormon taking place in Central America has been romanticized over the years by paintings of Nephites in front of these giant beautiful stone structures. I don’t believe that was the reality that they lived.
They built structures this way in Central America as well. Becan Mexico is a good example.
Becan has been well published by lds scholars for decades, so my question is, why are heartlanders playing dumb and ignoring this stuff so easily?
I would ask you the same question. We are not playing dumb it’s just everything including the hill camorah is exactly where it is supposed to be. And I’m not part of the heartlander group. I came to this conclusion long ago before the craze. I will admit I’m not an ultra right wing type. I just couldn’t believe the peoples in South America are from the Book of Mormon. I don’t see a connection.
@@BrianTerrillBecause Joseph said so. Moroni tutored him for years on the peoples of the BOM before he ever got the plates. I’d think if anyone would know it’d be Joseph. Pretty awesome really.
@@asarg1776 do you know exactly what Moroni said to Joseph in those four years? I don't, but if it is anything like what is recorded in his first visit, it would be dealing more with the ladt days, scriptures about to come to pass etc
@@BrianTerrill I think his mother, Lucy, recorded that he would tell the family all about what he learned. Said he knew their language, what they ate, their manner of dress, etc. as if he’d lived among them. So when Joseph says it was here in what is the current US I’m inclined to believe him. Why would he say it if it wasn’t so? Makes no sense.
It was much warmer 2000 years ago in North America based on location of the remains of parrots and parakeets
Here's something for you, there used to be a North American Parrot (Carolina Conure, Conuropsis carolinensis) that was wiped out and declared extinct in 1939 because people didn't understand extinction and hunted things to their demise, the Tasmanian devil, to coocoo bird, etc.
There were 3 parrots native to North America. The others being the thick-billed parrot, now extirpated (local extinction), and the green parakeet, still present in Texas.
The 🦜s are not enough, it is a fact that in times of the Roman empire the temperature was higher than today, and around the 13th century it went down like crazy. America was a whole different thing in ancient times
Effigy pipes of parrots.
"Nephi used snow as a metaphor, which wouldn't make sense to people who didn't know what snow was." Wooooahhhh!!!!
I’ve read the Book for decades and I have failed to catch those two things about snow ❄️ my mind is blown
🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯
@@marcusmiller6291what is the second thing ? Sorry, English is my second language
Let’s not forget Alma 46:40
40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent in the land-but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the nature of the climate-
There’s no snow in Jerusalem? It may not be super common, but it does snow, especially in northern Israel in the mountains… and it also does snow in the mountains of Central America… it’s not real common everywhere, but it’s not unheard of. And given the fact that when it happens it is memorable, that means the metaphor certainly works. But remember, who else was the intended audience of the Book of Mormon?… yup… people who are familiar with snow. It works both places. It also hails in Central America… three feet of hail fell on Guadalajara in recent history.
Yes thank you for this. This dude is legit.
Finally! Thank you, Cardon, for bringing in Jonathan. You need to have him back to discuss BOM translation as well. Would love to have you host a friendly round table discussion between heartlanders, MesoAmerica, Stone in the Hat and Urim & Thummin and Plate folks on at the same time. It would be awesome!
Not a bad idea…
I have wanted this to happen for so long!!
What happened to the rest of Jonathon's interview? Ended before it was finished. Will there be a part 2? Thanks.
Thanks for having Jonathan Neville on!! I agree the heartland model just makes sense!! You should have Bruce Porter on to talk about the proof of it regardless of the geography.
Bruce has the best scriptural evidence on the heartland model for sure. It's bullit proof.
Yes, if you rely on the scriptures only, north America fits. Ask Bruce to come over
Yes to Bruce Porter! Purpose of BOM is three fold: #1. Testify Christ 2. Testify of deed restrictions of the covenant Promised land of Liberty and consequences of breaking that covenant and 3. To tell the story of a fallen people so we don't end up the same way.
@@EdTravelingEast Really? Then why did Neivelle's top reasons reference personal letters and correspondences? Why didn't he "rely on the scriptures only"?
Instead, he seems to think that Oliver Cowdery must be infallible, as if his opinion on a non-doctrinal thing like Book of Mormon geography is wrong, that throws into doubt the entire Restoration.
To me, the heartland model doesn't make any sense. The United States is tooooo expansive to fit within the geographic context of the book. I believe the hill cumorah in New York is metaphoric and not literal. I believe Moroni did travel north to New York over the span of many years to escape the persecution of lamanites in the southern lands and hide the golden plates where they would be far from their reach It's almost logical if you think about it.
Bout time we got a heart lander on here goodness!! :)
Hopewell timelines match bofm. Great lakes Indian DNA matches middle east DNA. QED.
I recently learned that Navajo tradition claims that they had migrated from the east (definitely not from the west coast via land bridge).
When I asked my part Navajo friend about the claim, he told me that his sister’s “23 and me” results showed her to be part “Egyptian”.
I don't really care where it happened. I just know it did. and I get that there are a lot of geographical/archeological things that make Meso look good.. but for me prophecies trump geography/archeology and I just don't see how any of the prophecies in the BoM are about anywhere BUT the US.
Out of curiosity, how can you say you know it's true when there's no evidence? Or do you mean that you believe it's true?
@@billyclouse8228 I believe it's true. Enough to put all my faith into it.
@@billyclouse8228if you say there is no evidence you’re just trying not to see it. Or haven’t really looked.
@@asarg1776 Neville seems to take an "obscure paragraph" from various letters as proof of the physical location. It's interesting that he seems to rely most heavily on non-scriptural letters, and history speculations, rather than the actual text of the Book of Mormon, where from what I've seen the "Meso-American" model seems to pull most strongly from the actual text of the Book of Mormon.
@@OntheOtherHandVideos it pulls most strongly from the text regarding geography. But the covenants, promises, and prophecies mentioned by Nephi and Lehi seem to correspond more to what has occurred here in the US. No one seems to argue that their prophecies are about the U.S. so.. what are we talking about here?
You should bring on Wayne May to go over the Heartland model
Or Rod Meldrum.
Both!!
Cardon, you are highly entertaining. Love your enthusiasm and critique of the MesoAmerican theory proponents.
Thanks, man
Bruh, where's part2? The other side of the break.
Awesome guest. A guy without an agenda, just looking for truth and understanding.
Have it back again.
They did DNA test with central natives and found zero traces of Israelites and then years later they tested Cherokee and found tiny traces of Israeli blood " Woooahh!!!!" lol
The “Cumorah Truther” theory has significantly strengthened my testimony of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I assumed Mesoamerica growing up and that was fine and I believe that can still be fine, but learning about the connections with the heartland of the US added such a depth and fortifying power to my testimony that I simply did not have before, even when I looked at the evidences for Mesoamerica. I definitely think it would be helpful if you could get Wayne May, Rod Meldrum, Bruce Porter, and Amberli Nelson to talk about some more of this stuff.
The Cumorah Truther will stick. Jonathan began 12 years ago calling it "Moroni's America" which is awesome.
Regarding snow, I think that’s a stretch. Lehi’s family would have known what snow was like because even though it is rare, it does snow in Jerusalem, especially at higher elevations. So Nephi could have seen snow in Jerusalem before he journeyed with his family to the promised land.
I'm reading Johnathan's new book on the TRANSLATION of the BoM right now - stoked to see this episode!
Thank you for finally bringing a heartlander to the show. About time
There are 2 groups in the church. Heartlanders. And apostates!
All jokes aside. History of the western hemisphere as we know it is all wrong.
Until we understand the physics of being “caught away” in the Spirit, we might have trouble determining how far a Nephite can travel in a day
This was too good, Where’s part 2?
I wonder how long and far Moroni traveled before he buried the plates
It took him about 30 years of wandering just apparently to go right back where he got the plates to bury them there (according to heartland theory)
In 30 years Moroni could have gone all the way north- south, and east- west many times if he wanted to.
@@rutht2023 he didn't go where he wanted to
@@BrianTerrill How do you know where he wanted to go?
He didn't go where he wanted to, anyone who has any reading comprehension and has read his words knows that:
"3 And I, Moroni, will not deny the Christ; wherefore, I wander whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life." (1 Moroni 1:3) he didn't go where he wanted, he went where he could for the safety of his life. That's significantly different than going wherever he wanted.
D&C 54:8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.
- The Lord
Bam.
“these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, **after the manner of their language**, that they might come to understanding”
Notice that it doesn't say that they should go 'to the land of the Book of Mormon', is is the border of the Lamanites - Saints referred to American Indians as "Lamanites"
So it seems silly to try to make this stretch to be an 'evidence', when it doesn't make any claim or declare any truth or detail about the Book of Mormon
He's referring to where the Indian tribes were living in 1830.
One thing we all need to remember is that our salvation does not depend on where this took place... it depends on our faith, beliefs & knowledge. So i chose to study & pray & got my own personal witness 😊 😊
we can't be saved in ignorance. Plus, we all seem to want to know where Jerusalem is, no one says "it's not important to your salvation" when it comes to Jerusalem. Some of us would just really like to know
Oh Brian@@BrianTerrill, I totally agree with you, but some just don't care, but I'm with you, I WANT to KNOW! That statement was told to me by a Mesoamerican believer. I didn't mean to upset anyone. Thanks for your thoughts on this. Have a blessed weekend. 😊🙏
Of course the witness of the spirit is most crucial. However, knowing secondary and tangible evidence supports my spiritual witness. Read Elder Holland's Aug 2017 talk called "Greatness of the Evidence" as he says, "…Truly rock-ribbed faith and uncompromised conviction comes with its most complete power when it engages our head as well as our heart… Truth borne by the Holy Spirit comes with, in effect, two manifestations, two witnesses if you will-the force of fact as well as the force of feeling… I believe God intends us to find and use the evidence He has given-reasons, if you will-which affirm the truthfulness of His work… Evidence is still evidence even if it is not immediately observable…"
@@riannelson67 Thanks for your reply, I remember that talk & so many of my family & friends feel it's not that important. I so love this evidence & the feelings of knowledge that I have experienced. I took my older sister & youngest son to Nauvoo in June of 2021 & visited the mounds around the area. We went across the river to where Wayne May has procured the land where he believes Zarahemla is, it was amazing. Again, thank you for your reply. Have a blessed weekend. 😊🙏
The Spanish painted pictures of Aztec warriors who wore animal skins and heavy armor from head to foot. It wasn’t too hot for them to wear heavy armor.
Lehi couldn't have been more clear when describing the future of the promised land: Guatemala is well known as the land of liberty that all other nations want to enter.
Jonathan is amazing. Great interview!
Heartlanders unite!! LOL.
Lol
@@WARDRADIOLOL=LAND OF LIBERTY 🗽!
I'm a heartland boomer. 😊
@@user-yr9lt7dz8klove this... I'm going to use it. LOL ❤
@@lindahayes7911 oh no!! Cardon is going to lose it!! 🤣
Think about this Cardon. Jaguars use to live in North America. They are short haired. When the climate changed they migrated south. In the last 4 months Arizona has seen 8 Jaguars. Just food for thought. You guys are awesome keep up the good work!
They still do… they cross the Mexico/U.S. border all the time, or they used to have easy passing…….
Yes but not all the way in New York
It does mention snow while they are in Jerusalem and Nephi would kn\ow what that is. 1 nephi 11:8
Study up on the history of the Hopewell mound builders. As far as BOM geography, the vast majority of geographic descriptions are before the time of Christ. The BOM records massive changes in the land at the time of Christ’s death, so trying to match current geography with the BOM needs to be done very loosely.
The changes were to the *face* of the land, the surface. Plus Mormon uses the same mental map before and after the time of Christ so the major features were the same
They just found mound builders in the Amazon too. The Amazonian mounds date to 600 BC.
Given THIS land. Not given Mexico.
No mention of jaguars, jungles or jade.... OK but I haven't seen mention of mountain lions, bears or rattle snakes either. I feel certain that the ending scenes happened in the northeastern United States. Heartland is good for me but I can't rule out Meso-America for the early part of the Book of Mormon and honestly my testimony is solid. No matter where it actually took place. Time will tell.
Jonathan Neville is no slouch. He knows his history, especially Church history. He is on top of this. What a shame that so many have been misled. I was one of them, until I read Jonathan's books, and watched Wayne May's videos. Central America is far off.
The claim that the Church’s official claim is that Cumorah of the Book of Mormon is the same in New York is a HUGE claim/jump. The Book of Mormon leaves this very open because in Moroni’s record he says he left all the other records in a hill called Cumorah and then he LEFT with the Golden Plates. That’s a huge leap of logic and a huge claim
i LOVE Jonathan Neville's books!
Where is the rest?
You also need to have Bruce Porter on and have him explain the three purposes of BOM : #1. To testify of Christ 2. To explain deed restrictions for the Promised land of Liberty and consequences for breaking that covenant and 3. To tell the story of a fallen people so we don't end up the same way.
Can you imagine quiet, even-tempered, Bruce with explosive, interruptive Cardon? A more-than-usual, one-way “conversation”. Bruce is very good
@michaelphelan423 That thought did cross my mind; I thought the same thing about him interviewing Jonathan Neville but the interview turned out great!
Where's the rest of this interview? Jonathan has a lot of great stuff. Scripture Notes channel spent three two hour sessions with him.
Edited down to feature the “best of Cardon”
There's just too many problems with the Heartland model that cannot be explained. I have to stick with the Mesoamerican model that fits perfectly. Another problem is 3 Nephi 8: 11-12 "And there was a great and terrible destruction in the land southward. But behold, there was a more great and terrible destruction in the land northward; for behold, the whole face of the land was changed, because of the tempest and the whirlwinds, and the thunderings and the lightnings, and the exceedingly great quacking of the whole earth;". Yet if you look at a map of seismic activity in the United States Of America, the farther you go North from the Gulf Of Mexico, the lower the risk of seismic activity, and the less severe the history of seismic activity, the exact opposite of what is described in The Book Of Mormon. No place in the Heartland models fit the description of rough places being made smooth and smooth places being found in seams and cracks ever after, but in Mesoamerica you have 5 Continental Plates coming together. Plus in the Mesoamerican and Caribbean area three sunken cities have been found, one about 50 miles off the coast of Louisiana, 30-40 feet below the surface, one at the bottom of a lake about 40-70 feet below sea level, and one about two miles below sea level off the coast of Cuba.
Cardon, there are wild parrots around the LA area too. I’ve seen them for years especially in the LA basin. Probably pets escaped years ago bred like crazy.
USA! USA!! 🎉 Loved this episode! He was awesome! Please have him back!
Br Neville is a great guest. This episode was waay to short.
It seems to me that there is no promise, i.e., the promised land that Nephi talks about, over South America that there is here. It does seem that Christ visited there, yes, and they're every bit as much Children of God as we are, but the distinction of the land over time seems only to be over Israel and the United States...That's a dimension I don't think has been much examined in this debate...
I don't get the too far to travel arguments for it to not have taken place in Central and or South America as well. Just look at where the church started and the roots in Palmyra NY and in less than 30 years they made it to Salt Lake that's like 2100 miles. Well i just checked its like 4200 miles from Panama to Palmyra. So why couldn't they travel just twice as far or farther in 300 + years or more?
There are actually snakes near the great lakes
21:53 specifically mentions lamanite lack of clothing in battle early on (MSH 10;8)
Actually, one of the Whitmer's (David or John?) was the first to write a history of the church. He took it with him when he left the church and refused to return it to Joseph when Joseph requested him to do so. His history covers the first 7 years of the church. Sure would be amazing if it turns up one day to answer the many questions coming out re the revised history we've had since BY took over
It is known that the Aztecs did use thick clothing as armor. Cortex even bought some for his troops. Metal armor in a jungle is no picnic. And if they were wearing thick clothing because it was cold, wouldn't both sides be wearing thick clothing?
I remember reading somewhere that this black dude was convinced the Book of Mormon took place in Africa, I thought that was pretty cool.
And there are tons of metaphors used in scripture that the Nephites would not have been so familiar with, Nephi lamented this, but snow was definitely not one of them, even to a warmer tropical weather culture. They had mountains where snow most definitely fell occasionally. Nephi didn’t avoid writing about olive trees because the Nephites had no idea what an olive was.
Nephi grew up in Jerusalem, silly. He certainly new what oliver trees were.
I also have never seen an olive tree but can still kinda get the imagery
I can support the Heartland theory. They have found breast and head plates for protection, cities that have mounds of earth surrounding them, Native Americans in the area have legends, and stories supporting the Book of Mormon.
I have one question that I dont know how to resolve. If Lehi's family sailed from the area of Yemen and headed east, how did they get to the eastern coast of the US and start settling?
They would get there by circumnavigating Africa and crossing the Atlantic. The text doesn't say they sailed east.
Once I started learning about the evidence of The Book of Mormon taking place in North America... my testimony grew so much. It all just made sense. I really do not understand why so many people still believe in the Meso American model as it sorely lacks the prophetic evidence.
I do believe that Christ visited Meso America, though, as there's good evidence to support that.
What "prophetic evidence" are you refering to? I have yet to see any revelation on this subject, just people citing personal opinions of early Church leaders.
This will be good.
Four days and no new age malarkey! Let’s keep this streak going. Thank you WR for another fun stream. Love it.
I’m impartial but “animales silvestres” could have been jaguars. I love hearing a good meso or heartland theory. It’s so interesting either argument I hear and I love the people in the two main camps.
Let's keep this streak going for sure! 👏🙌🤣
Haha yeah for sure. I mean I'm all about having different perspectives here. In my opinion the truth becomes clear when all ideas are clearly shown.
I would happily accept the Heartland model if a single shred of credible evidence could be produced. I am uninterested in following proved forgeries, sites dated to the wrong time, lies about linguistic connections, and precedence of modern statements over the text itself.
I don’t know that I can wholly accept the meso-american model, but I can say that they at least outline their methodologies, following standard scientific procedures
You’re really not looking for it then
Careful, your ignorance is showing. "Proved forgeries"? By whom? How? There are literally thousands of artifacts discovered in dozens of counties, yet we're to assume that a few tricky hobbyists are responsible?
@@JakobPGrau Both BYU and the University of Michigan have produced several studies, examining ALL of the relics they have access to (i.e., the Michigan tablets) and both have conclusively shown both how they would have been produced and the specific marks, proving they were forged.
Without doubt, the Book of Mormon took place in the U.S., mainly along the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers, ending in western New York. Joseph Smith wrote a letter stating the BofM is a record of the ancestors of the western tribes of Indians, which were the Native Americans just west of NY in the 1830’s. He also testified of picking up the skulls and bones, walking over the mounds, of the Nephites, in OH, IN, IL, and was commanded to send missionaries to THE Lamanites, in D&C 28, 30, 32, which he did, and sent them to: NY, OH, IN, IL and MO, never sending a single missionary to Mexico, Central or South America. Joseph and Oliver repeatedly testified that there was only 1 Hill Cummorah, in NY, where the Nephite nation died off.
Prophets are not infallible, and they have opinions that are not canon or doctrine. Joseph never said he had a revelation about the location.
"THE Lamanites" are literally just any American Indians - there's no claim that "THE Lamanites" in the midwest were living in the same spot as the Book of Mormon.
You seem to be stretching evidence beyond reasonable means, and yet say it is 'beyond a doubt'.
@@OntheOtherHandVideos So Joseph Smith was just super lucky that every tribe he called Lamanites by Revelation also happened to have Haplogroup X DNA that can tie them to having descended from the people in ancient Jerusalem? That's some luck, not revelation at all...not at all.
@@Eluzian86 "every tribe he called Lamanites by Revelation"
Do tell, which tribes did Joseph Smith name by revelation? Provide the sources and I would be happy to read them. I would also say "can" is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence.
Unpopular opinion.
But I stand by my belief that other theory’s were promulgated and more widely accepted because of adversarial infiltration.
Why?
Because if the Saints really had understood and felt the closeness and proximity to the Nephites. If they really understood that the same land the Jaredites stood on and lost… the Nephites stood on and lost.. and now we stand on…
That it was indeed the SAME LAND. Then they would have fought harder, recognized easier and stood by firmer as they watched our Freedoms slowly be removed.
Most only see Satan as the guy that wants you to look at *Corn*, cheat on your test and lament Gods commandments…
He’s so much more involved than we know.
“Be careful who you trust. There are servants of satan embedded through out society”
President Nelson
Cardon! You do such good work!!
Release the full interview please! He hasn't even scratched the surface. We'll convert you Cordon. You'll see the light!
Heartland makes way more sense to me than the other models.
I just watched an interesting show about “America’s Stonehenge” in New Hampshire. It shows a very ancient stone structure. It is not exactly in the area you are generally saying is the land of Nephi but maybe this is. Nephi said he built a stone temple. Could this be the remnants? Of course according to the show it’s a totally mystery as to who built it or when.
Get Bruce Porter and
Amberley Nelson on.
Snakes = Great Black Swamp
Hey Cardon, Would you have Jonathan Neville back to talk about BOM translation? Last Dispensation just interviewed him regarding the BOM translation article in the March 2024 edition of the Liahona. JONATHAN walks through the article and shows how the histrorians intentional mislead members in this article and dismissed what JS
, himself, had to say about it. Would you have Jonathan back and discuss this article on your show?
How do they mislead?
Okay all you artist out there or in here, we need some LDS emojis. I'm an old boomer and don't understand how to do that stuff! So please someone????🙏
If you look through the chapters about the wars of Moroni you find out that all the fighting takes place between the last months, 13th or 12th months of the year and the 7th month. By the Hebrew Calendar the Jews were required to keep the Passover on the first full moon after the vernal equinox and that is the 14th day of the first month of the year. So that means that Nephites and Lamanites fought their wars between March and September and consistently took three months off from about the 8th month to the 11th month of the year.
Jew and Hebrew are not synonyms. Jew means Judean as the OG proves. The BofM explicitly states this as well.
The one reservation I have about Wayne May, Rod Meldrum and Jonathan Neville is that they Ignore the Big Cities of the Eastern US as places where the Nephites would have lived. For instance Zarahemla. They want to put it up at Montrose Iowa across the river from Nauvoo. People did live there back then, but it’s not as good of a location as St Louis. There is a major city there because it’s the right place for a major city even though it’s terribly mismanaged. It was a great place back then as well. It is just south of the mouths of the Illinois River and the Missouri River and the Chain of Rocks, a rock formation, which back then in its natural state would let your walk across the river without getting your feet wet when the water was low, about 9 months of the year. The Cahokia Mounds are in East St. Louis and there were many, many mounds where St Louis are. The Earth belongs the living not the dead so the early settlers of St Louis just knocked the mounds down and built the modern city. Yet, they were fascinated by the mounds long after they were gone and there were even books written about them with dubious explanations.
Cardin, I hope I am spelling your name right but I just wanted to correct you saying “take out endowment” you can’t take something that is a gift, you receive it.
My theory is that the land itself has changed so significantly since that time is it totally far-fetched to say that over the past 2600+ years. The Rocky Mountains are a divergent tectonic plate boundary, which means that from the core things push outward and create more space overtime. in fact, there is a desert between California and Nevada that has so much tectonic movement that stones move feet per year. there are two divergent sides of the Juan De Fuca plate to push into California and makes a slip fault for San Andreas all the way down through Baja Mexico. which means that the Rocky Mountains are getting even rockier and taller the same with all of the mountain ranges in Nevada and northern California. but heading out east there is more and more land being produced by tectonic push every single year.
Logically, if we look at some of the interesting things, we can also note that there are major earthquakes that happened since 2600 BC , my thought is that the continent has actually gotten significantly larger. Also, I think that there were still dinosaurs and perhaps there were some cataclysmic asteroid hits as well., Central America depicts in their hieroglyphs, both a brachiosaurus and the triceratops, and we still have no confirmation on what a curlom or a cumom are.
I think the landmass used to be significantly smaller. And perhaps the land shaped in such a way that we cannot conclusively have an argument about that time and a place. in fact, logically, it would denote that there could be a history of some significant land shifting because of how primitive the Native Americans live as soon as white man discovered them. Resetting civilization over and over again.
There are some who also say that 300 years has been added to the European calendar during the Ottomanempire to justify a king’s ruling.
and there could be something about these mud floods of Tartaria. there is pretty good evidence that what we call. Old civilizations were built on top of even older civilizations, and it goes back quite a ways in Eastern Europe. maps the back to the 16 and 1700s depicted land called Tartaria. and we is modern civilization mostly only have with the paid media of history paints for us.
The Nephites were driven northward for twenty years before the final battle at Cumorah. Therefore it would be very unlikely that the manority of the Book of Mormon took place anywhere near there.
Also, Father Lehi attended the dedication of the Mecico City temple. I haven't heard of him being seen at any other temple dedications.
Elder Talmage believed that the Book of Mormon took place mostly in South America.
What on earth does Republicans have to do with the Heartland theory?
This is more like it!
I'm extremely right-wing and was a proponent of the meso-american model until just recently
Am i crazy for thinking the Book of Mormon took place on both north and south America??
Nah. There were lots of people that thought that for a long time…
I think until 3 Nephi it was one continent! Aka 33 AD
@@WARDRADIOdoesnt that seem most possible that it really couldve taken place in both continents like maybe they landed in north america first or south or central but either way the events were all over?
I’ve been leaning this way lately.
@@ThoseOneGuysInc right? I mean ultimately ends in north America but i feel like its all over north, central, south. Just think about how far Moroni had to travel far to hide the plates. I mean i wouldn’t think he went from ohio to new york cause ultimately thats not that far yk
Yes, the Yucatán is further north than the 1917 map location.
What is the heartland model description as the possible location for "the narrow neck of land" described in The Book Of Mormon? Could the Book of Mormon have limited geography or cover a much more larger area of the Americas? Ontario, Michigan, other?
Because of the 3 Nephi destruction the Narrow Neck no longer exists. Compare how often the term is used before and after 3 Nephi.
I have heard of this theory also.
The narrow neck is the niagara area
@@dhr161 pretty sure it's too far north
They just found mound builders in the Amazon too. The Amazonian mounds date to 600 BC.
How can members believe the BofM is true when they can’t even decide where it took place? 😂😂 Cardon can’t even name all of the Q15 according to his debate on Jubilee? This must be the Jackmormon channel.
24:57 Oliver Cowdery being mistaken in his placement of BoM locations neither weakens nor strengthens his testimony as one of the three witnesses. It seems Jonathan Neville’s view of God as a puppet master ensuring that every word uttered by Joseph or Oliver is factually precise is a bit naive.
Two iconic works of art can be confusing- Christ standing alone with mesoamerica structures in the background, and Mormon praying over the plates in the snow of New York.
If you consider that Christ appeared to many people in many lands, but the BOM was written in one land, both can be correct.
What should have never seen the light of day is a 2 Cumorah theory. 🤦♂️
There is only one Cumorah and it’s in NY.
What does Cardon mean by "The traditional Meso American" model? That's just BYU professors' speculation...I went to BYU in 1985 and rejected it then as it simply does not fit the prophecies in the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith's own account...talk about wicked traditions of "our fathers"...
How do I join the Discord??
Imagine you are Mormon abridging the plates. You come upon a reference to the weather. You don’t add that in lol
It mentions snow twice, also because of the season they were weak and could not fight.
Where is corn and cotton mentioned?
Of course it took place in America the question is North South or Central
Columbus never made it to what would become the United States. And no North American Indian tribes are fulfilling Christs prophecy “And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.” 3 Nephi 17:12. However those people coming from South and Central America are beginning to fulfill that prophecy.
Joseph Smith was at least friendly to a mesoamerica view of the localities in the Book of Mormon. If Joseph Smith and every mortal prophet ever since was fallible, then we should avoid saying that mistakes by Oliver Cowdrey in these location matters are an impossibility or the founding of the restored church would be “undermined”. That’s a silly assertion.
Joseph Smith seemed to be in favor of a full continental model, so he probably believed the Lamanites went all the way down to Argentina.
He still believed the hill Cumorah was in NY either way.
Sorry, but Joseph was always, forever and consistently a NY Heartlander. Ever read D&C 28, 32, and the Wentworth letter that the Meso folks completely ignore or discount? Those anonymous T&S articles referring to Meso are attributed to JS simply because he was "editor" in name only. Carden needs to spend at least an hour with Jonathan, his guest, and have him explain the evidence that proves a rogue Benjamin Winchester was the author of those articles. Winchester was not only chastized for those articles but dismissed from working for the T&S altogether.
Took place in America? The title is already wrong. Mesoamerica IS America. No less than the United States.
One of the main reasons I support the heartland theory as well as the logic of Urim and Thummin of translation is it is 100% faith promoting, Joseph Smith is a prophet and knew what he was talking about. I have never met a single person claim that they lost their faith because of these things. I have on the other hand met people who claim they began the path of apostasy with the stone in the hat, and the confusion of where the Book of Mormon took place. Many are confused but cling to their faith that there are theories the BofM is a giant parable and never actually happened. The learned think they are wise and begin to look beyond the mark. Many intellectuals out and unfortunately in the church mock heartlanders and JS foundation claiming they are lowly educated… Who are the ones who struggle with testimony? Whose theory’s cause more doubt? K-rant over
This seems like a flawed argument - if people are confused on a subject, that must mean it isn't "100% faith promoting" and it is suspect?
Wouldn't that mean that if people leave the Church over perceived issues with the temple, that that is not "100% faith promoting"?
@@OntheOtherHandVideos it’s hard to be clear (at least for me) in comments. the 100% faith promoting is not saying 100% evidence of things being right. I meant it as the evidences or theories promote faith and not doubt against the church and its prophet. Many of the other theories, particularly the translation have to be painfully and carefully explained to be accepted against logic. Common sense says one needs plates to translate plates, if plates aren’t needed then why take the plates from its resting place. I do concede the mesoamerican model is easier to accept because (until recently) all of the “large” civilizations”were located in those regions “close”
to BofM timelines. But then you have to start theorizing on 2 cumorahs, Moroni lugging the plates way up North,most likely call bologna of the Manti temple site being set apart by Moroni let alone call BS of statements by Joseph smith consistently calling Native American lamanites, the D&C using the words lamanites referring to natives near Missouri and Ohio, And that JS didn’t know what he was talking about on Zion’s camp march. These cause doubts, not faith. I love the growing evidences that there were vast civilizations in North American and they are closer to the BofM timeline (supposedly). the North American model fits with how we interpret many things in 1Nephi 13 to be the USA. These to me, all point to positive belief in the BOfM And JS and not doubts that have to be addressed or explained before one can accept. Not sure it that clarifies or not.
@@TheJanesaw "Common sense says one needs plates to translate plates, if plates aren’t needed then why take the plates from its resting place."
"Common Sense" is not a way to determine doctrine or history. It is what it is. The plates are a tangible attested physical reality that critics stumble over, and that I'm sure gave Joseph confidence.
"calling Native American lamanites, the D&C using the words lamanites referring to natives near Missouri and Ohio"
"calling Native American lamanites" doesn't validate or support any geographical claim, just a claim of lineage/terminology.
Fair enough and I agree that common sense isn’t always lords way and what I think is common sense may be idiocy compared to the Lord.
@Kathy Harbinger. I couldn't type very fast with one finger and Live Chat limits a text to 70 characters. I'll try to write up a longer explanation and post it here.
Jonathan if your in Los Angeles. Say hi to Uncle Chad for me! -Rhett