Ram Pump Water Hammer Arrester as a Pressure Tank
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ส.ค. 2022
- What happens if you use a water hammer arrestor in place of the pressure tank in a ram pump setup? In this video I test a normal pressure tank and then a water hammer arrestor to see which one will delivery more water to the top of the hill.
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I'm flattered that you felt this was worthy of filming, and humbled for the shout out. Thank You.
Thank you for the chance to test this idea! It was an interesting setup.
Workbenchz
An effective way to keep the pvc pressure tank charged with air is to drill a small hole in the pipe just before the backflow check valve and insert a cotter pin into it to almost close it up. For example a 1/8" drilled hole with a 1/8" dia cotter. You will loose a little squirt of water with each cycle but will gain a very tiny air bubble entering the pressure chamber due to a very short duration suction effect of rebound. It is critical the bubble rises to the tank and does not accumulate before the check valve. This will be enough to keep the tank charged with air. The trick is to allow the cotter only enough clearance in the hole so that it can wiggle slightly and this will keep it self cleaning.
That was cool, only 3% difference, well within the margin of error to call it. I love that you keep coming up with new tests.
Yes it was very close. It was pointed out that the life span of the arrestor might not be up to cycling so many times while a pressure tank can go indefinitely.
Kash mujhe english ata
Aap ne sahi samjhaya brother.thanks
It would be interesting to see the same test with a Water Hammer Arrestor of the same size as the pvc one, because that water hammer arrestor that is smaller than pvc is almost as effective.
You are a legend. Love your videos
😎😎😎
Good test Nice job
Thank you.
Very interesting! Well done! Now it's time for some hydro power.
Yes I was pulling out the old Archimedes turbine the other day. I hope to make new videos on that soon!
Thumbs up done ✅👍✅👍 thanks for sharing interesting ideas
Thank you for watching.
Those are very common in plumbing, and I've never heard of one becoming water logged
It seems like something good for installs with limited space and you could place it sideways or whatever
First video without your ring on. Hope all well.
Next you should do an RV pressure tank and a Well pressure tank like in your crawlspace
A little late to the party but hot side expansion tanks would likely offer a little more pressure volume and can be adjusted up or down in pressure to achieve desired results.
I’d be interested to see how long a simple bladder (balloon or bag) in the PVC pipe resists water saturation.
if you do a test like this again, try putting some kind of graduated scale behind the pressure tank to measure deflection from water hammering. my eyes say, from this video both are moving about the same, but I love quantifiable vs. qualitative. that in general might be an interesting experiment for some day: what style tank results in the least amount of movement. I'd think the lightest tank with the least deflection would be the best for longevity of the fitting it attaches to. Although, we might be getting into the longevity of exposed PVC at that point as well.
Not having to "recharge" the tank every couple months might also be a benefit.
I wonder if the arrestor is going to give out sometime in the first year. That is 31 million cycles. The 1/2" pump does not kick around much. I could use the 1-1/4" pump and see a lot of movement.
@@LandtoHouse
Would a standpipe after the pump that takes a water column above the output hose level accomplish the same purpose of absorbing hydrostatic shock and smooth output flow but never require air bladders or air compression tanks ?
In my case your airtank seems perfectly designed to catch water cress and apply extreme stress that would snap the reducing neck of the pvc air tank,
But a smaller (iron?) pipe would snag less debris and might even be armored with an upstream sharp blade so that the water pressure would then cut even the toughest stalks/roots ?
I'd be interested to see the longevity of that off-the-shelf water hammer arrestor. Considering it is meant to live in a house with intermittent water hammer, not constant water hammer, and considering it has mechanical components that will likely wear out.
I bet if you get a bit larger of an arrester it will perform much better if that tiny one was almost equal to the normal pressure tank...
Let it run for 3 months and see if you have to drain system with arrester on it
Also should compare running it without a pressure tank or arrester as well... also comparing if after 3 months you have to drain system without a pressure tank or arrester as well..
Would it be possible to use some kind of bladder in the pressure tank to prevent the air from dissolving into the water?
Yes, this is how it's done on some other types of homemade ram pump and come in our kit in place of a pressure tank.
Question: If you were to get a piece of plastic that fit's semi snugly with a grove in it and a rubber o ring as an insulator between the water and air in the "pressure tank" if it would keep it from getting water logged, this way it would act as a piston backed by air pressure and keep it from dissolving the air out of the pressure tank
Very interesting videos. Would it help better if the waste water valve was omitted altogether? The water is to be first led into a pvc tube fixed parallel to the pressure tube causing it to rise in the pvc pressure tube. This water would become pressurised and force some of it to flow out of a side tube provided through a U tube connection. This would prevent water being wasted at the waste water valve and utilise all the water available.
Just put a valve stem on top of the tank and pump it up every 3 months 👍
Doesn't the bicycle innertube you put in some of your larger pumps help retain the air?
From a cost standpoint how does the air chamber compare to the arrestor?
Keep playing with variants. By mistake you will find the perfect solution for your situation ;)
Great review! Glad to see you testing out some alternative methods of operating a ram pump.
What happened with your siphon turbine setup at the fancy pond? You had done a bunch of tests, but I don't know that I ever saw a finalized project, or even if there was one.
One suggestion that might improve your videos -- stop using the phrase "as you can see here." We are watching the video, we know we can see it!!! Unless there is a specific thing that is tiny and we might miss it, see if you can avoid saying "as you can see."
Cheers! Thanks for staying focused on solar, hydro, ram pumps, and other off-grid awesomesauce. I'm glad you moved the weird off-brand product reviews to your other channel.
I know you've done one with a long pipe with the valve on top, but what would happen if you left the valve on the bottom but with a vertical pipe (say 2 foot) on top of the valve. So there is like a slight bit of pressure on the waste valve.
Very interesting. Thanks. Couldn't find any info on this HYDRO RESISTOR, on his channel.:(
Oh he only sent that to be tested he is not associated with the product.
Ok! Doesn’t the ramp pump waste much water than it pumps!? Just asking because it’s the first time I came across one
question : I know you have said large balder pipe pump more volume of water BUT does a larger size bladder tank also help in lift higher? example low head maybe 2-4' with 200-300' lift up a hill
What happens if you use both the arrester & the regular ???
why not put a regulater at the exit pointof the pump?
Would tennis balls inside the pressure tank be any use?
its impressive to have this workin pump so simply built but is there somthing simular that could be built that has more output
apart from building more ram pumps
Larger pumps produce larger output.
I AM get trouble to get the part for pressure PVC tube. Can i use the reduction for pvc tube 2" instead 3"?
The water hammer arrestor may be a smaller tank and have slightly less output, but it also seems like it did not require as much of a charge to begin working.
I didn't require a "charge" because the upstream hose was already primed from the first run.
Hi... if u don't have lot of space for the drive pipe, can you use about 2" 1 meter drive pipe inclined at a
Water velocity in the drive pipe is the key to the ram pump's function. The faster the water is flowing down the drive pipe just before the waste valve slams shut, the bigger the pressure spike that pumps water up the delivery pipe.
You are going to need about One m of head pressure for the ram pump to operate. It's ideal to keep the drive pipe the same size as the waste valve. A drive pipe that short is going to cause the pump to cycle very fast and potentially stop.
When I originally learned about ram pumps, rather than leave the pipe empty, they put in inner tube with some air in there, have you ever tried that? That way it doesn't ever become fully waterlogged?
I have used innertubes in the tank for years. After testing pressure and observing with a clear pressure tank I have seen that the tube does nothing for the system. It goes flat almost immediately.
@@LandtoHouse good to know.
What about making an air piston?
A solid little chunk with o-ring grooves, that sleeves into that pressure tank so the water pushes one side of the piston, but there's air in the other side so it compresses and then pushes back. But in theory no water slips by the o-rings?
I already know the answer, you're going to tell me it's easier to drain it every 3 months. I'm just thinking of ways that you would be able to leave one for a year or two if it was remotely placed
@@Bozemanjustin That's actually the design of this hammer arrester, o-ringed plug with pressurized air behind it.
@@LandtoHouse Hi Seth, sorry if It's an obvious one but, do you mean you don't recommend using the bike's inner tube anymore? Thanks for the great content, I'm assembling a 1/2" pump for my farm, I'll keep you posted once I got it running! Cheers.
That is correct. I have found the inner tube does nothing. The pressure spike of the water hammer seems to open the Schrader valve and let the air out.
wondering if the two working together would improve performance any?
Not sure about that. Could be a fun test. Place the arrestor in the front and then the pressure tank next.
@@LandtoHouse And then switch positions to see if there is a difference.
Could you use a 90 deg fitting and lay the arrestor flat? I’m just thinking form factor. It could make it smaller and you could enclose it in a housing for weather, or maybe so it can’t get damaged from falling debris.
I should think so. The ram pump can operate without a pressure tank so laying this down would still work and having the closed tube would allow the pressure wave to cycle without the tank filling with water.
So, it seems to me that with the pressure tank becoming WATERLOGGED, you could simply put like a valve at the bottom to close it off from the rest of the system (left open while in use), then above that you could put a valve you open to atmosphere to drain the pressure tank (and leave closed at all other times while in operation). So, if it looks like the pressure tank is getting waterlogged, you close it off from the system, open the drain valve, let it drain, close the drain valve, open the input valve again, and you're back up and running with an empty pressure tank. Then you don't need to "take anything apart" to drain it. Just close it off, open the drain valve, close the drain vale, open the input valve and done. Might also need a valve at the top of the pressure tank you can also open to get air in more easily when the bottom valve is opened. Otherwise, maybe it wouldn't drain very easily due to vacuum effect?
Alternately, can you just put in some kind of compressible inner tube or something in the pressure tank that'll compress, but not allow the water to absorb the air inside it, thus, theoretically, it would never get waterlogged? I'm thinking like a thick-walled sealed balloon or something, that's sturdy enough not to quickly "wear out" or "pop" due to repeated compression/expansion or seasonal heat/cold cycles, but which does elastically expand/contract under pressure, so still serves the purpose of cushioning the water hammer effect?
Also, how do you keep the system from freezing up in winter and blowing up the ram pump, pressure tank, etc. due to expanding water/ice? Or do you simply drain the entire system and leave it off for the winter to avoid breaking the entire system due to freezing?
Why not just put a tire valve on that pressure tank and pump air in it with a tire pump everytime it runs out of air. Eliminates the hustle of draining the water out of that tank.
That could work. As long as the pump could handle a range of 20 to 100psi. I have seen pressure tanks with 120psi in them.
Dumb question, you always support the pump by screwing a strap to a board under the pump, but could you support it by strapping the pressure tank to a post?
You can absolutely prop up the pump with a post. It is actually common for a fence post to be used to hold the pump up. I like to use a combination of board and rebar when I do an install.
The only question I have is will it last longer then the pressure tank. Two moving part is better then three
Not sure that the arrestor was designed to cycle 31,000,000 times a year. I bet that will factor into the longevity.
@@LandtoHouse I’ll stay with the original there is a reason it’s lasted the test of time it’s simplicity
I agree! This test was just to learn what would happen.
But can u use both by useing a T?
I bet so. Not sure that it would make much difference.
@@LandtoHouse but doubble or nothing 😁
@@LandtoHouse amd 1 more idea use a big suringe amd stap. It down with rubber bands as spring
Hello sir, i have been follow you sometime. I decide now to ask something. Have you have some shop/partnership in Europe country with goal to buy some parts or kit equipment? Best Regards and sorry for my worst English .
I ship to Europe. The shipping cost is high though.
@@LandtoHouse yes, and the alfange/port internacional tax, Will almost double in final price on my country :s Will try build it myself . I have find your free ebook at time. Thank you for your info sharing!
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