The triathlon guys are a small group from Bergen, and the Ingebrigtsens are a family group making it from training hard from young age and very professionally trained by their father. But one of the big advantages in Norway I would say is the Olympiatoppen program which was initiated in the 1980s to improve Norwegian athlete results before the olympics in 1994 in Norway. This is a center where all top athletes can come and learn from each other. Keeping the training culture and knowledge together and letting athletes learn from each other across sports means that nobody has to reinvent how to get good in sport each generation. Especially in cross country skiing we see hundreds of good athletes, while other countries rely on individual enthusiast athletes who are able to get there on their own.
Definitely do think that culture plays a big role. In Norway, outdoor/winter/endurance sports are everywhere and probably more than in other European countries. Still, they are often streets ahead with their training. Great video!
That's the thing. Hiking and other outdoor activities has huge part in development of kids, granting really good aerobic foundation purely thru play and fun. I'm Finn and we watch and compare our endurance sports to Norway and while i can mimic everything as closely as possible it just seems that talent pool isn't there. And another thing is the talent pool. In Finland hockey is big thing which sucks alot of talent pool from everywhere, while in Norway endurance sports is where it's at.
I agree. These sports are just a way of life for so many when they’re growing up. So better chance of finding those few with world class potential early
@@Second247 Canadian here. The hockey talent and resources drain is a real thing and is truly bad for both sporting outcome and the health of the nation. There are few sports more resource dependant than hockey. I really wish we'd invest more in a more balanced approach to sport.
I think one thing that also has to be mentioned with Norway is they maybe the best social safety nets. I think this also contributes to their athletic success. If they get injured they can afford to go to doctors, they have the ability to put more time into training before its their profession, less stress with debt and how they are gonna survive. More people who want to try and be a pro athlete have that ability to attempt it and not ruin their lives.
@@mintymilkk Implying that Norway uses their oil income in a smarter way. Instead of lining the pockets of a few already wealthy individuals, we spend it on the people. And the rest is invested in our trust fund in case of a rainy day (like the pandemic).
If you go to Norway they take being outdoors very seriously. I recall even seeing T-shirts in Bergen that translate as ‘You don’t come to Norway to sit in your arse’, which is absolutely true. I saw pensioners in their 80s and 90s cycling up crazy hills and they weren’t even fazed. A huge amount so lots of outdoor activities. Loads of them ski, hike, climb, among other things, regularly. I can tell you there’s definitely a huge cultural element to it.
As a Norwegian never heard this saying🤣🤣🤣 And sure the great outdoors and nature in general is a huge part of our culture. Mainly through hiking in the mountains, or winter sport activities during winter… I grew up walking or biking to school in every type of weather, and instead of laying on a beach somewhere in Southern Europe, we always wet to my mom’s cabin for hiking, going on trails etc. During Easter and winter break we’d do cross country skiing and do a bon fire/BBQ. Tho I stopped doing the skii part as an adult as I hated it.
As a swede that lives close to the border of norway it is mostly the economic situation that goes into sport and the culture there that makes the difference, they even have a world tour team with onl norwegians and one danish rider ( i think) in road cycling, that is sponsored b a big gas station company (UNO X). Children and people LOVE endurance sports, as we do in Sweden and we are really good at it to but Norway is way better, at least on the men's side, not on the women's side for some reason, there we are much even. You can be a professional at a club level in Norway when it comes to skiing, biathlon, running and sometimes cycling, and you can´t be that in Sweden, and that's because they have a lot more of a sponsor culture in the local clubs there that sponsors the best athletes of each club. And for the olympics in Lillehammer 1994 they made a huge investment in research when it comes to training. So yeah they are really good at this because it is a small country, but a rich one with a lot of resources, and of course culture. Endurance is a huge part of their culture. But they will never be good at ice hockey like Sweden and Finland and the USA or Canada because they haven't had a big culture when it comes to ice hockey.
Yeah the "sport" culture plays a big role. I am myself from Finland and used to compete in cross country skiing. There are 3-5x more participants on Norges Cup on adult and Junior level compared to Finland. When I'm checking the results from races on Norwegian and Finnish national level, I think the gap has even grew on a junior level. Same goes with cycling, running and other endurance sports. But when it comes to ice hockey, it's very popular and it reflects on the results.
I think UnoX have 2 or 3 danish people actually, and it's a pro team (former continental) not world tour. But yeah you're right. Unox just seems like a hobby project from the family that own one the biggest retail group in Norway (Reitan)
Norway has always had top endrurance athletes, from long distance with Grete Waitz, ice skating with Johan olav koss and others,. We are skiers and many of these athetes start with skiing, and skiers are arguably the fittest athletes you can come across. The whole norwegian method is a very new concept birthed mainly from Gjert Ingebrigtsen as a way to hopefully compete with an insanely dominant but very specific genepool from a very specific tribe in Kenya in midde distance running. Which he did
When you had Stephen Seiler on, he said the training split is 80% of training SESSIONS, not hours as you say at 2min mark, are in Z1, and the other 20% of sessions are Z3. The point of Z1 session is staying in fat oxidation to promote mitochondria adaptation, as soon as you begin building up lactate in Z2/3, this shuts off fat oxidation because the body has to clear out lactate that is building (or else you get muscles shutdown from lactate, which your body does not want, obviously). Body starts using lactate plus carbs as energy to burn out the lactate. It defeats the point of Z1 if in a single session, you do Z1 for 8min then Z3 for 2min for a 80/20 split of time. The other vids I've watched say it takes ~20-30min to switch back to fat burning, so throw out those next 20-30min of your training session as wasted time if you switch into Z2/3 during a workout. Save that Z2/3 time for an actual interval session.
I also heard that fact. So if you wanna train z1 and z2/3 in one training session you should start z1 for at least 40mins(but imho 've better at least 1.5h) and afterwords you are free to start z3/2 intervals. Other subsequence is wrong
I agree kinda, the length of the sessions are still important in determining the intensity split, for example having your intensity days being 2 hours long and easy days 45 mins won't be 80/20 even if session split is 80/20. But just looking at your time spent in zones on Strava or Trainingpeaks doesn't work either, as the rests between intervals should also be considered as intensity, even if your doing 100w
or, as someone else i recall noted perform the z2/z3 workout at the end of a long z1 session, you get the benefit of the 80:20 split plus training your body to simulate race like conditions (easy then hard).
as @adamolig3865 was implying, just because you're recovering at 100w, it doesn't mean your body is operating at the usual 100w, which is what I felt Dylan was saying in his excellent vid and what the Norwegians are also using the lactate monitor for; they can see if they are actually in that targeted zone (Zone 1 in this case). It is so hard to just look at your rest intervals and add them to the 80 side of the 80/20 split.@@axelkvarnstrom1826
Don't forget Biathlon and Cross Country skiing - Norway does *very* well in these! It's ironic that we in the US of A are [relatively speaking] just now catching on to Polarization - especially since the 'father' of polarization is Stephen Seiler, PhD a product of the University of Arkansas and UT Austin. I think there's a sliding scale between Polarization and Pyramid, depending on the sport you are training for. Polarization seems to work best for short endurance events like kayaking and rowing where very high intensity is required for relatively short periods, while Pyramidal workouts may work best for athletes who need to deliver over longer periods in the LT2 region. There was an attempt at an infrared monitoring device several years ago that used a sleeve to hold the device to the back of your calf. It was pulled back from the market about the time it launched and the company shifted to monitoring for diabetes if I recall correctly (in other words, it wasn't reliable). Accurate continuous lactate monitoring would be amazing. And if you think it's tough to measure runners or cyclists, try grabbing the ear of an athlete sitting in a 15" wide racing kayak while they attempt to balance:)
Lydiard's work was more related to _periodization_ and base building with blocks of anerobic training laid down on the base. Based on my fairly limited knowledge, I think I'd refer to him as perhaps the grandfather of modern training techniques.
Seiler just described what he observed in Norwegian athletes, and got it about 80% right. His 3 zones of intensity makes it too simplified as we in Norway always use 5-7 zones to be more accurate in the intensity distribution. Other than that he got most of it right.
I must laugh when polarized training is talked about as something new, when I trained like that for 30 years ago. We have evolved a lot since then and that's why we do well in endurance sports.
@@DEAR7340I actually had the best results in grand fondos the year I did 30 min intervals a week and the rest super easy with a 2-4 hours ride sessions. Most people do every session semi hard.
I think the biggest case study of this is the Norwegian cross country ski team which has dominated the sport forever which is arguably the hardest endurance sport of all. I think that they have the perfect culture which loves and revers all endurance sports. Which leads to good training tecniques and so on.
Great summary as always, Dylan. I learned something, and thank you for the citations. I'm going to read some of those studies. I do find it a little sad that you talked about Norwegian exercise science without once mentioning cross-country skiing, a sport in which they dominate the world and I believe many of their advances in training have come from.
The drone footage is from Bergen :) I live here, just like the current Ironman world record holder Gustav Iden. Running and cycling are a bit hard here because of the mountains and constant elevation change. Open-water swimming is mostly in cold fjord :) Even during summer, it rarely gets warm enough to enjoy. On the bright side, it's never too cold or too hot here. But one needs to get used to training under the rain most of the year :)
Kristian looks huge it's amazing how Olav has put together a master plan for both him and Gustav to perform at such a high level. Look forward to seeing how KB does in Paris Happy 2024 everyone!
I would definitely be curious about any cultural factors at play! Was always amazed at the quality of elite Norwegian power-endurance athletes as well - Olaf Tufte (rowing) Petter Northug (cross country skiing) Thor Hushovd (cycling)
I also want to point out what often gets missed when discussing the Norwegian Method: the Norwegian triathletes are supported by a national cluster of funding/technology/personal and facilities. It's essentially a national Olympic team that trains in distances that are not Olympic. These two (speaking about KB and GI) are essentially a team. That is rare. So are are the Ingebringstens. This allows them to have people test their Vo2max and lactate constantly, measure and re-calculate. This is an individual sport, and yet they get the team sport support. Athletes in other countries are more or less on their own, and while they may have training partners, they do not have the national support, infrastructure, and support that the Norwegians have. THIS IS HUGE!
I was absolutely yelling at the screen waiting for the commentary about periodization!!! You always come through, so thank you for the thoughtful analysis! I think we get SO lost in WHICH IS BETTER that we (the collective WE) forget that the body responds to stimuli, and that the change in stimuli is what produces long term adaptations. It is important to note that every professional athlete working with a professional coach is going to go through multiple cycles of training each competition season, and I would put it to you that no single (successful) athlete does ONE type of training that we’re all mysteriously missing out on.
I know Gustavs father and trainer: on easy days he would make the young athletes walk slow up hills if their heart rate was too high. Easy days are mentally tough because many people thinks it doesn’t feel like training and it can also be quite boring going easy for hours.
The first time I trained for 100 mile event I was super strict on my easy rides never letting my HR get above 125 even if I was crawling along. It served me very well combined with lifting and threshold intervals 3x20 as DJ describes
Damn I remember how frustrating and challenging it was especially at junior age keeping those easy/recovery sessions easy. It was not so easy at that age when many people pass you on a training session 😁
Loving you content, Dylan! I used to race doing only threshold and high intensity training, but definitely not sustainable. just starting doing easy rides for the first time in 30 years of riding/training at age 59 😮
Timely video. I'm currently part of a research study on continuous lactate monitors, and have four of them on my body. They are amazingly non-invasive compared to the endless finger pricking control protocol.
But aren’t smo2 sensors like moxy, train red fyer or this hex one the better non-invasive training tools as they directly measure what lactate is an indicator of? With lactate you only need one sensor, but in cycling two smo2 sensors on both quads should be sufficient? In the long run smo2 sensors are probably also less expensive compared to the cost of the lactate test strips or “needle tip circle thingys” you stick to your arm for a week or so. And it is completely non-invasive, which is a big plus…
Really? That sounds so interesting. Damn, thinking about checking your lactate monitor instead of your hear rate monitor on a training session and between them sounds wild (and freakin awesome) to be honest 😁. Is this first study of this kind? I wish all the best for your reserarch project. Cheers.
well said DJ, ... assuming there are no PEDs involved 🙏, then their model has real merit. for the above average athlete, the key principal is to be able to hit more 'touch points' in your training, so to limit fatigue and therefore be able to hit sessions in better shape to stimulate a more effective adaption (especially in the higher intensity sessions). as opposed to more frequent higher intensity which could mean less quality per session. so the model is using fatigue management as a key quality in the training as a guardian against overreach and plateauing.
Norway is clearly doing a lot correctly in training. However, the other guys are too. It seems unlikely to me that even if they found a method that makes someone 1% better that the method would work for everyone. To me, this is likely just luck/coincidence or something else as you point out. Awesome video.
In norway the way they quatify how hard they should do their intervalls at is often determined by tests, definetly for professionals. They have 3 different intervall types which cannot be correctøy quatified in a 3 zone model. They are: Zone 3 (sub threshold) Zone 4 (sub maximal above threshold) Zone 5 (at or very near maximal effort) Zon 3 is typicaally the long type interval of say, 8minutes, zone 4 is typically shorter untervall at say 2-3minutes and zone 5 is for vo2max training with super short 30-45s intervalls with lots if repetitions. Zone 3 intervalls is done at 60min threshold pace/power/heart rate Zon 4 intervalls is done at 20min pace/power/heart rate and zone 5 is typically 5 minutes pace/power heart rate. In cycling you can just do those tests and test for say max power you can hold that for, flat running you do pace, or heart rate would work too, lactate can also work. The intervalls are also divided in ⅓ for each one so yo do equal amount of all three intervalls. Easy training is just easy 80% in zone 1 (5 zoned model) not zone 2 generally.
Dag-Otto Lauritzen comes to mind former pro cyclist turned to cycling to rehab a broken leg as a Norwegian paratrooper. Super strong super talented always in the running in the races he took part in the late 80's early 90's
Also, he couldnt walk on said leg when it happened so he crawled through the woods using only his hands, high as fuck on amfetamines, provided for these emergencies. So he was already familiar with the effects when using it for is mountain top stage win in the Tdf
Veronique Billat a French Physiologist was a pioneer in vVO2 MAX type of training. She was at a running camp i went to in 2002 and we did a 3,000 meter run on a track with Lactate monitoring to determine what pace to start training at just below the Lactate Threshold. But high speed short 10 sec Sprints with 50 seconds walking every minute is what i like: even at 70 years old i did 18 of these on my manual Treadmill starting at 5min race pace and dropping to 4min race pace : yesterday. Training for a masters 800meters time of 2:15- 2 20.
Your comments on Continuous Lactate Monitors remind me of using a Continuous Glucose Monitor as a Diabetic. Since moving from BG readers and test strips to a CGM I can't imagine cycling without it - the continuous data and (almost) lack of interruption are a game changer.
Thank you for a great and informative video, just the info i needed for the difference and similarities between polarized and pyramid style training. 👍
Thanks for another great video on training! One benefit of pyramidal training attractive to me is that it breaks up the boredom of long endurance rides. I realize that LSD is key to building aerobic fitness, its just hard for me to keep that up. Increasing my "hard workouts" by 5-10% of my weekly total helps break up the monotony of endurance training.
Two points: 1. The situation with the recent Norwegian success echoes the success New Zealand and Australia had in the distant past; new training methods for middle and long-distance runners brought considerable international success (Lydiard's long-steady distance for 100 miles per week in the base phase - aka Zone 2) and became popular internationally. 2. The physiological characteristics of the individual athlete and the particular demands of the event need to be woven into the training plan. Pure endurance events are probably simpler in this regard than events that have a blend of physiological demands (i.e. middle distance running or CX versus triathlon).
Your video is really really helpfull in understanding periodisation..i have seen many videos of norwegian method.. but this was the best❤❤ love from india..❤
This was very good. I have worked a little with some of these lactate-nerds and it is so cumbersome to test all the time. Just a little too much sweat on the hands makes it difficult to test.
There is a theory that if you build a huge heart as a teenager, when the skeleton grows, you at the same time builds a huge room for it behind the ribs. If you dont do that, there will not be space for the heart to grow superlarge. Cross country skiing is a very efficient way to build a big heart. A big heart muscle helps pumping oxygen.
Yay, thanks a lot for your video about this topic! I can't wait for accurate continuous lactate monitors to be widely available. I would be willing to pay up to 1000 bucks for one.
Both Christian and Gustav have also contributed their success to starting very young and doing high volume training for many years. This makes sense because the michochondria development would be superior to others who haven‘t done that systematically for so long. That‘s why they‘re willing to share their method, they know anyone who wants to catch them will also need to do the 15+ years high volume training to develop the physiology to their level 😅
@@casanjt8515why do you think they’re doing peds? Their performances are very erratic and they’ve been beaten regularly in big races, I’d be asking for my money back if I was them!
@@roballen1160I don’t think it’s an absolutely absurd suggestion tbh. We now know triathlon isn’t as clean as some people once thought (Collin Chartier 😅) and it’s undeniable that winning an Olympic Gold, 70.3 world champs and long course world champs in the space of a year is a ridiculous achievement. He is also very consistent- 1st and 2nd in his last full course Ironman World Champs and podium finishes at all 3 PTO races in 2023 too. I am by no means suggesting he is 100% on PEDs but let’s not pretend that if it all comes out in 10 years that he’s been doping, there isn’t evidence to suggest his performances were a little bit too good to be true lol.
@@jackwong649 I agree he’s had some incredible results but I feel you’re cherry picking his highlights there, his Olympic distance results last year were very average by his standards and Iden’s were even worse.
Hey Dylan. I've recently been hit with the flu. Whilst trying to look up when to get back on the bike again I've found that there are a lot of different opinions on this matter. I thought this might be something that is right up your alley to research and make a video about. Talking points being *How to get back after illness *how the recovery differs between a cold and an infection. *What your fueling should look like *The intensity of rides and when to start doing them again. Anyway love your video's, greetings from Belgium.
I was trying to distill my takeaways... please pile-on so everyone can get this right: 1. Periodize your training. As you approach competition Pyramidal then Polarized is best periodization approach 2. Pyramidal training has 2/7 of just below threashold work - it's high intensity high volume on those days, easy (Z2) the other days with recovery (short) or higher volume depending on proximity to the intense days. To get the volume, consider double PYR session days. Pyramidal intensity is just below threshold e.g. if FTP is 320, efforts might be 300-310) 4. Polarized training has less volume, greater intensity and shorter intervals. Short intervals aid in this work to allow lactate to clear so that overall volume in the higher zone can be longer than would be with longer intervals e.g. VO2 intervals maybe 90-120sec with rest of 60-120 sec. This allows lactate to clear, avoids high lactate and adverse metabolic response, while volume and intensity is supported to allow greater work at the prescribed level. Do I have this right? What did I miss?
I always come back to load-management and margins when looking at elite training protocols. These guys are chasing .5-2% over their competition at very high volumes of training, so they have to prioritize recovery, so they have to precisely monitor load in order to maximize their adaptive potential. This is especially true in triathlon, where fatigue has to be managed across three sports. I can recall discussion of World Cup XC ski training during the Sundby era ticking up over 1100 hours per year, something only possible with precisely controlled load in a sport where intensity is hard to avoid and overtraining is common. I seriously doubt continuous lactate monitoring will make a meaningful difference in less-than-elite training plans, but CANNOT WAIT to hear lactate-based excuses for race fails in the near future. Immense potential for comedy. One other note on the Norwegian Method, which is fundamentally a running protocol - because running is so biomechanically impactful, elite runners struggled to get enough time-in-zone during individual sessions while avoiding injury. The double sessions solved this problem by allowing for a midday break, spreading time-in-zone across two workouts without sacrificing adaptations. Double-session runners could get 40-60 minutes in zone while doing the bulk of their intensity in one day and minimizing the risk of injury, which is a hugely limiting factor in elite running. The Norwegian Method, therefore, yielded two significant benefits: 1.) a higher training stimulus on hard days, & 2.) greater consistency of training overall (because fewer injuries and less chronic fatigue). I bring this up because cyclists simply do not have this problem of injury risk limiting time-in-zone during single sessions. I would be surprised if double sessions caught on in cycling.
THIS! " because running is so biomechanically impactful, elite runners struggled to get enough time-in-zone during individual sessions while avoiding injury". Running needs to be modelled differently because of its biomechanical stress that cycling does not have.
There might not be the same risks around injury in cycling but there's still just general fatigue. I did double sessions of VO2 intervals today's. Got in a solid 40+ minutes TIZ across two 2-hour sessions. Power drop was minimal across all intervals making them highly effective and provided the stimulus I was looking for. I highly doubt I could have achieved that in a 4 hour single session.
I hope my country (Chile) follows suit and people start getting podiums in more outdoor sports! Just like Norway, our geography is privileged to practice such sports and thankfully we're a stable country overall that can support good politics around social security, health, recreation and sports.
I’m a science geek so I love these videos! I stopped mtb racing 2+ years ago when I broke my femur but I’m trying to get back to that fitness this year. I recently set up Xert’s new AI based training planner to see if it would get me to the desired fitness by the end of May. What are your thoughts on this new feature and does it look like it would work? At first glance the workout plan seems to follow a pyramidal and/or polarized model.
I believe that it also helps that their retirement program has the best in the world, meaning that every athlete has a couple super rich family members that will help our even launch their family to way better results. Which is a different mindset, when i was young i would just get pushed to college, job, and nothing for hobbies.
What about Slovenia? Pogačar, Mohorič, Roglič, plus one of the biggest nba super stars, Dončić. Countless dh ski racer, ski jumper, Olympic athletes, and many more.
The highes vo2 max that has been recorded by any female athlete, Therese Johaug, cross country skier. Number two on that list, Kristin Størmer Steira, a vo2 max of 80. Also a Cross country skier. Bjørn Dæhlie had the record for men for many years. Also a cross country skier.
As a former Norwegian athelete (kayaking)) this model of training really really ingrained from a early youth age so even though you do not take lactate tests every session (depending on the your level), you learn from a early age to synchronize your intensity feeling to lactic levels so you know pretty well without taking tests what intensity you are doing. This is as well ingrained in the training culture so as you are doing your best to push yourself and others on trainings it is really tabu to break high higher lactate levels on threshold sessions.
I generally would caution to use these models across all sports equally for all periods (base vs build). My main sport is running, and after a full Ironman last year the models generate very different adaptions in each sport. Running with a sweet spot model will generate huge amounts of leg fatigue, impact, nutrition and hydration needs, and injury risk (i.e., marathon prep at 140-160km/week), whereas sweet spot on the bike is much more forgiving (you can eat hot dogs on the read and sweat less). Swimming, well, that's a whole another story; you can swim 16k/week and still not be tired (if you have good technique)...All that is to say is that sport specific factors need to be considered and that I don't think using the same models across all sports is really meaningful. Personally, I find running long distance in the build period is different that cycling in the build period.
Their runners at all distances are doing incredible. I for one just can’t see the benefit of double day threshold and I’m starting to see more videos on it. Either way, great video Dylan
How can you not see the benefit of double threshold? 30 minutes of intervals at threshold AM and 30 minutes of threshold intervals PM creates more stimuli than only 30 minutes hard (above threshold) intervals. It's also less taxing on the body than say 50 minutes of threshold in one session (ex. 10x5 min). It's also easier to keep this routine for most parts of the year and keep doing it week in and week out. Lots of volume, lots of time at threshold, hill sprints for sprinting purposes and of course harder training closer to races.
For running on high volume split days are essential to avoid injuries. For triathletes split day training is also essential they might do hard bike ride am with track workout pm on the same day.
Interesting content. I got my lactate threshold tested recently. Rough process 😂 Would also be great for you to deep dive into HRV and its value as a training metric
Nothing seems to please my Strava gods more than a longer ride with some focused tempo blocks. This revelation has validated the use of more tempo during my pre-season. It's not uncommon for Strava to give me a +5 in fitness after a single 4+ hour ride with tempo blocks. I think switching to "polarized" closer to race season is just another way of saying "taper".
That just means the algorithm they use gives that more weight, not that it makes you faster better than other training. That is a very good way to grow aerobic fitness, but it is not strictly your fitness
At 16:57 the bar graph shows Z1, Z2 and Z3. I can estimate the different percentages based on the color in the graph but what I can't understand is each graph is a different height. Is that left axis supposed to be time/miles? If so, what is the median point? Or to make it easy, what time/miles does Tuesday represent? Thx.
I think it's just a sample week that shows how you can structure things. I happen to use the exact same structure but with an extra rest day on thursday. Height differences are definitely time, and color differences in each day represent how much time you might spend in each zone. Weekends are pretty self explanatory, just nice and easy long rides, hence the height. Monday is a rest day. Tuesday and friday are intensity days, but you might do sweet spot or threshold work on tuesday, and leave friday for the most intense work depending on your goals. If you're disciplined, you won't be having power spikes on tuesday so your time in each zone would be mostly yellow with a bit of green possibly due to warm up and cool down phases. On friday, depending on what you do, you will end up with a bit of yellow due to rest intervals, warm up and cool down from the working portion of the work out, but it would be mostly red since it's the most intense day and you're probably doing Vo2 or stuff like that. I see wednesday as extra volume doing more Z2 but not quite as long as on weekends, and thursdays doing a recovery ride or complete rest. As with everything, it only makes sense if you individualize it, but for me it looks like this: Mon Off Tue 1.5hr of SS Wed 3.0hrs Z1 Thu Off Fri 1 or 1.5 hr of VO2, or whatever MTB fitness weakness I choose to work on Sat 3.0 hrs Z1 Sun 3.0 hrs Z1 but a different route to keep things fun. For example, I live in a hilly area, so I try to keep at least one of the weekend routes as flat as possible, and the other one I just ride whatever I find motivating that day as long as I can keep target power even if I end up climbing a lot. Hope this helps.
They have a high performance center, where ALL elites sports people go. Whether your Magnus Carlsen a chess champion, or Blumenthal the triathlete...all their elite athletes from different sports will often cross paths at this centre where they can share information but also they can relax amongst other people who know the struggles and sacrifices they make to be the best. The oil money they have helps also..
Having spent time in the mountains and with many Norwegians I can tell you that it's my opinion that the reason there are so many excellent Norwegian athletes because of cross-country skiing which translates well to almost every endurance sport and is probably ranked above, skating, swimming and bicycle racing cardiovascularly.
East Germany dominated endurance sports (amateur cycling, sprint/endurance athletics/rowing/boxing) 1970/80s. I have no doubt that all of your information was widely known in East Germany at that time.
Video idea! I've seen fragments of a training by Harrie Lavreysen, Jeffrey Hoogland and Robert Förstemann doing clean pulls and staircase jumps. Do they perform snatch, clean & jerk, deadlift, ... too apart from squats already shown in your gym exercise video? How about balancing exercises, plyometric work, ...
The track cyclist most certainly do clean and jerk, but I have only seen them do trap bar deadlifts instead of barbell deadlifts if they have the equipment.
Go to Bergen and try for yourself. Most of the time during winter even some walk for groceries requires so much mental toughness that you rather will be doing some threshold intervals on treadmill. Plus you can afford that treadmill for maybe one or two beers at the club.
Hi Dylan. Would it be sufficient then to just keep intensity of the z2 just above LT1 to make sure one doesn't go over LT2? Rather than testing during sessions. Or it is so important to get it so precise because the z2 should happen at the top range of the zone 2?
Important thing about the Norwegian Method is that the mentioned athletes don't need high lactate rates and fast-twitch muscles to follow MvdP on one of the final climbs of a spring classic. Instead they focus on aerobice capacity and also efficiency and (IronMan) high fatmax power. Such things might be useful for a GC cylist as well. But I'm sure a CXer/Classics specialist will have different criteria set by their trainers for lactate values to keep above/below than in the Norwegian method. And then as you said different training methods might be used at different times of the year. -> The result for those searching for the ultimate training method is simply confusing and probably hopeless
Interesting video. I was wondering... My understanding of periodization is that in essence you go from more general preparation to more race specific preparation. In that regard i would assume that for races with a more continuous effort (like triathlon), going from polarized in the general preparation phase to pyramidal in the race specific phase would be superior. Any thoughts on thus? It's more or less how i intended to plan my training for my A race in July :D
yes, periodization describes macro cycles in your training (like seasons: base, build,peak, race), while polarized/pyramidal models describe micro cycles (sometimes 7 days, sometimes 14 days). Most complete protocols (35-20 weeks) for long distance endurance events will switch from a polarized structure in base to pyramidal on the build phase to introduce race-specific demands (which will hopefully end up being around upper-Zone2 efforts.
A lot of these training concepts (e.g. shorter intervals to let the blood lactate to come down) seem to come from cross country skiing. Makes sense because Norway is dominant in that
Could temperature play a role in Norwegian success? That is, you can't train as hard on HOT days as you get overheated, but in Norway it's so cold that you never overheat.
It might be true, because we can train all summer. But to cold, below -15C is a problem, causing astma. Therefore a lot of great skiiers breathes astma medication.
In a way potentially, as it’s very cold weather they trained a lot inside which makes it easier to control the pace/power to stay in very specific sub-threshold zone
Have you done a video on reverse periodization? Where you start (obviously with a good base fitness) with shorter high intensity rides, then switch to more longer zone two rides and a sprinkling of more specialized workouts as you approach riding season? Idea being to pull your threshold/ftp up, then maintain it and work on specifically conditioning before you can go outside?
Hey Dylan, great Video as always! Whats your take on intensity control for the different interval sessions. For mere mortals without a lactate meter, it seems easier to control HIT sessions, so that one reaches the magical 90% max oxygen intake, whereas hitting the right intensity for threshold training with only GPS watch/powermeter can be tricky. Of course there is the "sweet spot" you mentioned, which I think can roughly be translated to intense tempo runs (Im a triathlete). Im curious if you think the benefits of threshold training (possibly reduced injury risk, esp for running) might outweigh the loss of control of the intensity. Thanks for the good research, keep it up!
For MASTERS ATHLETE who is not going to do any lactate testing how to you recommend staying in zone? currently targeting "70% max HR or below" to stay in zone 1 and not caring about the zone2/zone3 split.
Have you done any testing on yourself with SmO2 and Lactate? I think this is why we see these Norwegians using these devices so much. Staying in zone as fatigue creeps. SmO2 is an amazing science and I wonder if we will map it to lactate, or if it will become its own indicator.
Thanks for another great video. This may sound like a silly question, but I have been riding for quite a few years and have bounced around between having 5 zones and 7 zones and now 3. Do you simply devide the 7 zones wattage between 3 to figure out the correct intensity? This would be quite a good YT short graphic maybe...
The triathlon guys are a small group from Bergen, and the Ingebrigtsens are a family group making it from training hard from young age and very professionally trained by their father. But one of the big advantages in Norway I would say is the Olympiatoppen program which was initiated in the 1980s to improve Norwegian athlete results before the olympics in 1994 in Norway. This is a center where all top athletes can come and learn from each other. Keeping the training culture and knowledge together and letting athletes learn from each other across sports means that nobody has to reinvent how to get good in sport each generation. Especially in cross country skiing we see hundreds of good athletes, while other countries rely on individual enthusiast athletes who are able to get there on their own.
Definitely do think that culture plays a big role. In Norway, outdoor/winter/endurance sports are everywhere and probably more than in other European countries. Still, they are often streets ahead with their training. Great video!
Streets ahead, i saw what you did there Pierce :)
That's the thing. Hiking and other outdoor activities has huge part in development of kids, granting really good aerobic foundation purely thru play and fun. I'm Finn and we watch and compare our endurance sports to Norway and while i can mimic everything as closely as possible it just seems that talent pool isn't there.
And another thing is the talent pool. In Finland hockey is big thing which sucks alot of talent pool from everywhere, while in Norway endurance sports is where it's at.
I agree. These sports are just a way of life for so many when they’re growing up. So better chance of finding those few with world class potential early
@@pierrex3226the other European countries are clearly streets behind.
@@Second247 Canadian here. The hockey talent and resources drain is a real thing and is truly bad for both sporting outcome and the health of the nation. There are few sports more resource dependant than hockey. I really wish we'd invest more in a more balanced approach to sport.
Ah! There is the Dylan Johnson we know and love. Awesome to have some of your older content style back. Keep doing more of this?
I think one thing that also has to be mentioned with Norway is they maybe the best social safety nets. I think this also contributes to their athletic success. If they get injured they can afford to go to doctors, they have the ability to put more time into training before its their profession, less stress with debt and how they are gonna survive. More people who want to try and be a pro athlete have that ability to attempt it and not ruin their lives.
Yup it's gotta be cause there a bunch of commies
Oil money has its advantages.
@@JRmntain implying the US doesn't have oil money lmao
If you stretched any harder to insert a political angle you might rupture a tendon bud.
@@mintymilkk Implying that Norway uses their oil income in a smarter way. Instead of lining the pockets of a few already wealthy individuals, we spend it on the people. And the rest is invested in our trust fund in case of a rainy day (like the pandemic).
Best training analysis out there on the youtubesphere even though i’m a runner. Kudos!
If you go to Norway they take being outdoors very seriously. I recall even seeing T-shirts in Bergen that translate as ‘You don’t come to Norway to sit in your arse’, which is absolutely true. I saw pensioners in their 80s and 90s cycling up crazy hills and they weren’t even fazed. A huge amount so lots of outdoor activities. Loads of them ski, hike, climb, among other things, regularly. I can tell you there’s definitely a huge cultural element to it.
...those 80-90 uphill had electric bikes...
@@kvalvagnes No, usually not.
As a Norwegian never heard this saying🤣🤣🤣 And sure the great outdoors and nature in general is a huge part of our culture. Mainly through hiking in the mountains, or winter sport activities during winter… I grew up walking or biking to school in every type of weather, and instead of laying on a beach somewhere in Southern Europe, we always wet to my mom’s cabin for hiking, going on trails etc. During Easter and winter break we’d do cross country skiing and do a bon fire/BBQ. Tho I stopped doing the skii part as an adult as I hated it.
Sport1 own Jotunheim brand has several t-shirts with such text. Kinda cringy but someone likes.
In Norway, due to the laws of parental consent, athletes between 15 and 18 years old cannot be tested for doping.
As a swede that lives close to the border of norway it is mostly the economic situation that goes into sport and the culture there that makes the difference, they even have a world tour team with onl norwegians and one danish rider ( i think) in road cycling, that is sponsored b a big gas station company (UNO X).
Children and people LOVE endurance sports, as we do in Sweden and we are really good at it to but Norway is way better, at least on the men's side, not on the women's side for some reason, there we are much even. You can be a professional at a club level in Norway when it comes to skiing, biathlon, running and sometimes cycling, and you can´t be that in Sweden, and that's because they have a lot more of a sponsor culture in the local clubs there that sponsors the best athletes of each club. And for the olympics in Lillehammer 1994 they made a huge investment in research when it comes to training. So yeah they are really good at this because it is a small country, but a rich one with a lot of resources, and of course culture. Endurance is a huge part of their culture. But they will never be good at ice hockey like Sweden and Finland and the USA or Canada because they haven't had a big culture when it comes to ice hockey.
Yeah the "sport" culture plays a big role. I am myself from Finland and used to compete in cross country skiing. There are 3-5x more participants on Norges Cup on adult and Junior level compared to Finland.
When I'm checking the results from races on Norwegian and Finnish national level, I think the gap has even grew on a junior level.
Same goes with cycling, running and other endurance sports. But when it comes to ice hockey, it's very popular and it reflects on the results.
I think UnoX have 2 or 3 danish people actually, and it's a pro team (former continental) not world tour. But yeah you're right. Unox just seems like a hobby project from the family that own one the biggest retail group in Norway (Reitan)
Norway has always had top endrurance athletes, from long distance with Grete Waitz, ice skating with Johan olav koss and others,. We are skiers and many of these athetes start with skiing, and skiers are arguably the fittest athletes you can come across. The whole norwegian method is a very new concept birthed mainly from Gjert Ingebrigtsen as a way to hopefully compete with an insanely dominant but very specific genepool from a very specific tribe in Kenya in midde distance running. Which he did
I was gonna say I think the biggest study of this is there cross country ski programme.
He is taking a lot of inspiration from Marius Bakken
When you had Stephen Seiler on, he said the training split is 80% of training SESSIONS, not hours as you say at 2min mark, are in Z1, and the other 20% of sessions are Z3. The point of Z1 session is staying in fat oxidation to promote mitochondria adaptation, as soon as you begin building up lactate in Z2/3, this shuts off fat oxidation because the body has to clear out lactate that is building (or else you get muscles shutdown from lactate, which your body does not want, obviously). Body starts using lactate plus carbs as energy to burn out the lactate. It defeats the point of Z1 if in a single session, you do Z1 for 8min then Z3 for 2min for a 80/20 split of time. The other vids I've watched say it takes ~20-30min to switch back to fat burning, so throw out those next 20-30min of your training session as wasted time if you switch into Z2/3 during a workout. Save that Z2/3 time for an actual interval session.
I also heard that fact. So if you wanna train z1 and z2/3 in one training session you should start z1 for at least 40mins(but imho 've better at least 1.5h) and afterwords you are free to start z3/2 intervals. Other subsequence is wrong
I agree kinda, the length of the sessions are still important in determining the intensity split, for example having your intensity days being 2 hours long and easy days 45 mins won't be 80/20 even if session split is 80/20. But just looking at your time spent in zones on Strava or Trainingpeaks doesn't work either, as the rests between intervals should also be considered as intensity, even if your doing 100w
or, as someone else i recall noted perform the z2/z3 workout at the end of a long z1 session, you get the benefit of the 80:20 split plus training your body to simulate race like conditions (easy then hard).
as @adamolig3865 was implying, just because you're recovering at 100w, it doesn't mean your body is operating at the usual 100w, which is what I felt Dylan was saying in his excellent vid and what the Norwegians are also using the lactate monitor for; they can see if they are actually in that targeted zone (Zone 1 in this case). It is so hard to just look at your rest intervals and add them to the 80 side of the 80/20 split.@@axelkvarnstrom1826
@@bitchoflivingblah
I seem to recall a video where DJ referred to a session of his like this in passing…not 100% sure though
So good. Thanks! The nuances of your observations are great value!
Don't forget Biathlon and Cross Country skiing - Norway does *very* well in these!
It's ironic that we in the US of A are [relatively speaking] just now catching on to Polarization - especially since the 'father' of polarization is Stephen Seiler, PhD a product of the University of Arkansas and UT Austin. I think there's a sliding scale between Polarization and Pyramid, depending on the sport you are training for. Polarization seems to work best for short endurance events like kayaking and rowing where very high intensity is required for relatively short periods, while Pyramidal workouts may work best for athletes who need to deliver over longer periods in the LT2 region.
There was an attempt at an infrared monitoring device several years ago that used a sleeve to hold the device to the back of your calf. It was pulled back from the market about the time it launched and the company shifted to monitoring for diabetes if I recall correctly (in other words, it wasn't reliable). Accurate continuous lactate monitoring would be amazing. And if you think it's tough to measure runners or cyclists, try grabbing the ear of an athlete sitting in a 15" wide racing kayak while they attempt to balance:)
Isn’t the father of this type of training the New Zealander Arthur Lydiard? Coaching runners starting in the 60’s with polarised plans.
Lydiard's work was more related to _periodization_ and base building with blocks of anerobic training laid down on the base. Based on my fairly limited knowledge, I think I'd refer to him as perhaps the grandfather of modern training techniques.
Seiler just described what he observed in Norwegian athletes, and got it about 80% right. His 3 zones of intensity makes it too simplified as we in Norway always use 5-7 zones to be more accurate in the intensity distribution. Other than that he got most of it right.
I must laugh when polarized training is talked about as something new, when I trained like that for 30 years ago. We have evolved a lot since then and that's why we do well in endurance sports.
@@frj73 If you don't dumb it down, we Americans will almost always have a hard time following instructions ;)
For "most" of us, sticking to "any" workout plan yields better results.
Exactly. I doubt that athletes that lack the time or discipline to train more than 5 hours per week would experience a breakthrough.
@@DEAR7340I actually had the best results in grand fondos the year I did 30 min intervals a week and the rest super easy with a 2-4 hours ride sessions. Most people do every session semi hard.
I think the biggest case study of this is the Norwegian cross country ski team which has dominated the sport forever which is arguably the hardest endurance sport of all. I think that they have the perfect culture which loves and revers all endurance sports. Which leads to good training tecniques and so on.
Great summary as always, Dylan. I learned something, and thank you for the citations. I'm going to read some of those studies. I do find it a little sad that you talked about Norwegian exercise science without once mentioning cross-country skiing, a sport in which they dominate the world and I believe many of their advances in training have come from.
The drone footage is from Bergen :) I live here, just like the current Ironman world record holder Gustav Iden. Running and cycling are a bit hard here because of the mountains and constant elevation change. Open-water swimming is mostly in cold fjord :) Even during summer, it rarely gets warm enough to enjoy. On the bright side, it's never too cold or too hot here. But one needs to get used to training under the rain most of the year :)
Thanks Dylan! Such a valuable and informative video. I really appreciate how you integrate scientific research and studies in your content.
Kristian looks huge it's amazing how Olav has put together a master plan for both him and Gustav to perform at such a high level. Look forward to seeing how KB does in Paris Happy 2024 everyone!
they're all next level
I would definitely be curious about any cultural factors at play! Was always amazed at the quality of elite Norwegian power-endurance athletes as well -
Olaf Tufte (rowing)
Petter Northug (cross country skiing)
Thor Hushovd (cycling)
Still the best content on YT. Kudos.
I trained polarized already in the mid 80ies. It’s been a thing in Norway 🇳🇴 for decades.
I also want to point out what often gets missed when discussing the Norwegian Method: the Norwegian triathletes are supported by a national cluster of funding/technology/personal and facilities. It's essentially a national Olympic team that trains in distances that are not Olympic. These two (speaking about KB and GI) are essentially a team. That is rare. So are are the Ingebringstens. This allows them to have people test their Vo2max and lactate constantly, measure and re-calculate. This is an individual sport, and yet they get the team sport support. Athletes in other countries are more or less on their own, and while they may have training partners, they do not have the national support, infrastructure, and support that the Norwegians have. THIS IS HUGE!
Great video as usual Dylan, I have purchased one of your off-season packages this year. Perfect many thanks 👍
I absolutely love the video. You are awesome .
excellent job.
Thanks Dylan for the education. Great work!
Awesome sauce. Well done Dylan, another great video!
this video was awesome, super in-depth anda with all the relevant research listed
fantastic work
I was absolutely yelling at the screen waiting for the commentary about periodization!!! You always come through, so thank you for the thoughtful analysis!
I think we get SO lost in WHICH IS BETTER that we (the collective WE) forget that the body responds to stimuli, and that the change in stimuli is what produces long term adaptations. It is important to note that every professional athlete working with a professional coach is going to go through multiple cycles of training each competition season, and I would put it to you that no single (successful) athlete does ONE type of training that we’re all mysteriously missing out on.
I know Gustavs father and trainer: on easy days he would make the young athletes walk slow up hills if their heart rate was too high. Easy days are mentally tough because many people thinks it doesn’t feel like training and it can also be quite boring going easy for hours.
The first time I trained for 100 mile event I was super strict on my easy rides never letting my HR get above 125 even if I was crawling along. It served me very well combined with lifting and threshold intervals 3x20 as DJ describes
Damn I remember how frustrating and challenging it was especially at junior age keeping those easy/recovery sessions easy. It was not so easy at that age when many people pass you on a training session 😁
Loving you content, Dylan!
I used to race doing only threshold and high intensity training, but definitely not sustainable. just starting doing easy rides for the first time in 30 years of riding/training at age 59 😮
Timely video. I'm currently part of a research study on continuous lactate monitors, and have four of them on my body. They are amazingly non-invasive compared to the endless finger pricking control protocol.
Any leads on when such a meter would be available to buy?
But aren’t smo2 sensors like moxy, train red fyer or this hex one the better non-invasive training tools as they directly measure what lactate is an indicator of? With lactate you only need one sensor, but in cycling two smo2 sensors on both quads should be sufficient? In the long run smo2 sensors are probably also less expensive compared to the cost of the lactate test strips or “needle tip circle thingys” you stick to your arm for a week or so. And it is completely non-invasive, which is a big plus…
@@JanTrenson I think it's close (2-3y for general availability) but TBD based on study outcomes.
@@Paganizondaf650 there is a Venn overlap between the two, but the CLM is also intended for chronic pain/illness patients, etc.
Really? That sounds so interesting. Damn, thinking about checking your lactate monitor instead of your hear rate monitor on a training session and between them sounds wild (and freakin awesome) to be honest 😁.
Is this first study of this kind?
I wish all the best for your reserarch project. Cheers.
This exploded so much. Thanks
Great topic, and well presented, thanks!
well said DJ, ... assuming there are no PEDs involved 🙏, then their model has real merit. for the above average athlete, the key principal is to be able to hit more 'touch points' in your training, so to limit fatigue and therefore be able to hit sessions in better shape to stimulate a more effective adaption (especially in the higher intensity sessions). as opposed to more frequent higher intensity which could mean less quality per session. so the model is using fatigue management as a key quality in the training as a guardian against overreach and plateauing.
Norway is clearly doing a lot correctly in training. However, the other guys are too. It seems unlikely to me that even if they found a method that makes someone 1% better that the method would work for everyone. To me, this is likely just luck/coincidence or something else as you point out. Awesome video.
In norway the way they quatify how hard they should do their intervalls at is often determined by tests, definetly for professionals.
They have 3 different intervall types which cannot be correctøy quatified in a 3 zone model. They are:
Zone 3 (sub threshold)
Zone 4 (sub maximal above threshold)
Zone 5 (at or very near maximal effort)
Zon 3 is typicaally the long type interval of say, 8minutes, zone 4 is typically shorter untervall at say 2-3minutes and zone 5 is for vo2max training with super short 30-45s intervalls with lots if repetitions.
Zone 3 intervalls is done at 60min threshold pace/power/heart rate
Zon 4 intervalls is done at 20min pace/power/heart rate and zone 5 is typically 5 minutes pace/power heart rate.
In cycling you can just do those tests and test for say max power you can hold that for, flat running you do pace, or heart rate would work too, lactate can also work.
The intervalls are also divided in ⅓ for each one so yo do equal amount of all three intervalls.
Easy training is just easy 80% in zone 1 (5 zoned model) not zone 2 generally.
Dag-Otto Lauritzen comes to mind former pro cyclist turned to cycling to rehab a broken leg as a Norwegian paratrooper. Super strong super talented always in the running in the races he took part in the late 80's early 90's
Also, he couldnt walk on said leg when it happened so he crawled through the woods using only his hands, high as fuck on amfetamines, provided for these emergencies. So he was already familiar with the effects when using it for is mountain top stage win in the Tdf
Veronique Billat a French Physiologist was a pioneer in vVO2 MAX type of training.
She was at a running camp i went to in 2002 and we did a 3,000 meter run on a track with Lactate monitoring to determine what pace to start training at just below the Lactate Threshold.
But high speed short 10 sec Sprints with 50 seconds walking every minute is what i like: even at 70 years old i did 18 of these on my manual Treadmill starting at 5min race pace and dropping to 4min race pace : yesterday.
Training for a masters 800meters time of 2:15- 2 20.
Your comments on Continuous Lactate Monitors remind me of using a Continuous Glucose Monitor as a Diabetic. Since moving from BG readers and test strips to a CGM I can't imagine cycling without it - the continuous data and (almost) lack of interruption are a game changer.
Thank you for a great and informative video, just the info i needed for the difference and similarities between polarized and pyramid style training. 👍
Thanks for another great video on training!
One benefit of pyramidal training attractive to me is that it breaks up the boredom of long endurance rides. I realize that LSD is key to building aerobic fitness, its just hard for me to keep that up. Increasing my "hard workouts" by 5-10% of my weekly total helps break up the monotony of endurance training.
Two points: 1. The situation with the recent Norwegian success echoes the success New Zealand and Australia had in the distant past; new training methods for middle and long-distance runners brought considerable international success (Lydiard's long-steady distance for 100 miles per week in the base phase - aka Zone 2) and became popular internationally. 2. The physiological characteristics of the individual athlete and the particular demands of the event need to be woven into the training plan. Pure endurance events are probably simpler in this regard than events that have a blend of physiological demands (i.e. middle distance running or CX versus triathlon).
Your video is really really helpfull in understanding periodisation..i have seen many videos of norwegian method.. but this was the best❤❤ love from india..❤
They embrace science
Don’t forget that the Biathlon and Cross country skiers are the best in the world and really have been for quite sometime. They have huge engines!!!
This was very good.
I have worked a little with some of these lactate-nerds and it is so cumbersome to test all the time. Just a little too much sweat on the hands makes it difficult to test.
There is a theory that if you build a huge heart as a teenager, when the skeleton grows, you at the same time builds a huge room for it behind the ribs. If you dont do that, there will not be space for the heart to grow superlarge. Cross country skiing is a very efficient way to build a big heart. A big heart muscle helps pumping oxygen.
Yay, thanks a lot for your video about this topic! I can't wait for accurate continuous lactate monitors to be widely available. I would be willing to pay up to 1000 bucks for one.
Both Christian and Gustav have also contributed their success to starting very young and doing high volume training for many years. This makes sense because the michochondria development would be superior to others who haven‘t done that systematically for so long. That‘s why they‘re willing to share their method, they know anyone who wants to catch them will also need to do the 15+ years high volume training to develop the physiology to their level 😅
im just going to try to get some genetic material from them
So are we gonna ignore peds lol
@@casanjt8515why do you think they’re doing peds? Their performances are very erratic and they’ve been beaten regularly in big races, I’d be asking for my money back if I was them!
@@roballen1160I don’t think it’s an absolutely absurd suggestion tbh. We now know triathlon isn’t as clean as some people once thought (Collin Chartier 😅) and it’s undeniable that winning an Olympic Gold, 70.3 world champs and long course world champs in the space of a year is a ridiculous achievement. He is also very consistent- 1st and 2nd in his last full course Ironman World Champs and podium finishes at all 3 PTO races in 2023 too. I am by no means suggesting he is 100% on PEDs but let’s not pretend that if it all comes out in 10 years that he’s been doping, there isn’t evidence to suggest his performances were a little bit too good to be true lol.
@@jackwong649 I agree he’s had some incredible results but I feel you’re cherry picking his highlights there, his Olympic distance results last year were very average by his standards and Iden’s were even worse.
Hey Dylan.
I've recently been hit with the flu.
Whilst trying to look up when to get back on the bike again I've found that there are a lot of different opinions on this matter.
I thought this might be something that is right up your alley to research and make a video about.
Talking points being
*How to get back after illness
*how the recovery differs between a cold and an infection.
*What your fueling should look like
*The intensity of rides and when to start doing them again.
Anyway love your video's, greetings from Belgium.
I was trying to distill my takeaways... please pile-on so everyone can get this right:
1. Periodize your training. As you approach competition Pyramidal then Polarized is best periodization approach
2. Pyramidal training has 2/7 of just below threashold work - it's high intensity high volume on those days, easy (Z2) the other days with recovery (short) or higher volume depending on proximity to the intense days. To get the volume, consider double PYR session days. Pyramidal intensity is just below threshold e.g. if FTP is 320, efforts might be 300-310)
4. Polarized training has less volume, greater intensity and shorter intervals. Short intervals aid in this work to allow lactate to clear so that overall volume in the higher zone can be longer than would be with longer intervals e.g. VO2 intervals maybe 90-120sec with rest of 60-120 sec. This allows lactate to clear, avoids high lactate and adverse metabolic response, while volume and intensity is supported to allow greater work at the prescribed level.
Do I have this right? What did I miss?
I believe Norway to be a very TALENTED athlete producing country
lol. Talent > everything else. Dizzle told me.
Genius…
ya ya
@@josha5528I heard that too
lmao
I always come back to load-management and margins when looking at elite training protocols. These guys are chasing .5-2% over their competition at very high volumes of training, so they have to prioritize recovery, so they have to precisely monitor load in order to maximize their adaptive potential. This is especially true in triathlon, where fatigue has to be managed across three sports. I can recall discussion of World Cup XC ski training during the Sundby era ticking up over 1100 hours per year, something only possible with precisely controlled load in a sport where intensity is hard to avoid and overtraining is common. I seriously doubt continuous lactate monitoring will make a meaningful difference in less-than-elite training plans, but CANNOT WAIT to hear lactate-based excuses for race fails in the near future. Immense potential for comedy. One other note on the Norwegian Method, which is fundamentally a running protocol - because running is so biomechanically impactful, elite runners struggled to get enough time-in-zone during individual sessions while avoiding injury. The double sessions solved this problem by allowing for a midday break, spreading time-in-zone across two workouts without sacrificing adaptations. Double-session runners could get 40-60 minutes in zone while doing the bulk of their intensity in one day and minimizing the risk of injury, which is a hugely limiting factor in elite running. The Norwegian Method, therefore, yielded two significant benefits: 1.) a higher training stimulus on hard days, & 2.) greater consistency of training overall (because fewer injuries and less chronic fatigue). I bring this up because cyclists simply do not have this problem of injury risk limiting time-in-zone during single sessions. I would be surprised if double sessions caught on in cycling.
THIS! " because running is so biomechanically impactful, elite runners struggled to get enough time-in-zone during individual sessions while avoiding injury". Running needs to be modelled differently because of its biomechanical stress that cycling does not have.
Great additions. I believe cycling does pose injury risk as a function of time in zone, although not nearly to the same extent as running.
There might not be the same risks around injury in cycling but there's still just general fatigue. I did double sessions of VO2 intervals today's. Got in a solid 40+ minutes TIZ across two 2-hour sessions. Power drop was minimal across all intervals making them highly effective and provided the stimulus I was looking for. I highly doubt I could have achieved that in a 4 hour single session.
Honestlt this video made more sense then Olaf Alexander’s description of their method.
I hope my country (Chile) follows suit and people start getting podiums in more outdoor sports! Just like Norway, our geography is privileged to practice such sports and thankfully we're a stable country overall that can support good politics around social security, health, recreation and sports.
I’m a science geek so I love these videos! I stopped mtb racing 2+ years ago when I broke my femur but I’m trying to get back to that fitness this year. I recently set up Xert’s new AI based training planner to see if it would get me to the desired fitness by the end of May. What are your thoughts on this new feature and does it look like it would work? At first glance the workout plan seems to follow a pyramidal and/or polarized model.
Love the self-roasts in the videos.
Great video DJ, thanks 🙌
Summary: for perfect preparation, periodise by primarily practising precise pyramidal protocols prior to progressing to pre-event polarisation.
Is this an alliteration? 😂
Great video again! I was always wondering why they deliver so many athletes with a total population of only 5.4m
I believe that it also helps that their retirement program has the best in the world, meaning that every athlete has a couple super rich family members that will help our even launch their family to way better results. Which is a different mindset, when i was young i would just get pushed to college, job, and nothing for hobbies.
What about Slovenia? Pogačar, Mohorič, Roglič, plus one of the biggest nba super stars, Dončić. Countless dh ski racer, ski jumper, Olympic athletes, and many more.
Slovenia , bicykling and skijumping. Roglic! There are no bikers in the world that can skijump as Roglic.
The highes vo2 max that has been recorded by any female athlete, Therese Johaug, cross country skier. Number two on that list, Kristin Størmer Steira, a vo2 max of 80. Also a Cross country skier. Bjørn Dæhlie had the record for men for many years. Also a cross country skier.
Great info! I’m sending this to all my athletes that go too hard! 😂
This video is a GEM, thanks Dylan!
As a former Norwegian athelete (kayaking)) this model of training really really ingrained from a early youth age so even though you do not take lactate tests every session (depending on the your level), you learn from a early age to synchronize your intensity feeling to lactic levels so you know pretty well without taking tests what intensity you are doing.
This is as well ingrained in the training culture so as you are doing your best to push yourself and others on trainings it is really tabu to break high higher lactate levels on threshold sessions.
I have been training my lactate threshold in past 12 months and I managed to raise it from 325 to 395 :D
There is something in the water, doping!
I like the video
I generally would caution to use these models across all sports equally for all periods (base vs build). My main sport is running, and after a full Ironman last year the models generate very different adaptions in each sport. Running with a sweet spot model will generate huge amounts of leg fatigue, impact, nutrition and hydration needs, and injury risk (i.e., marathon prep at 140-160km/week), whereas sweet spot on the bike is much more forgiving (you can eat hot dogs on the read and sweat less). Swimming, well, that's a whole another story; you can swim 16k/week and still not be tired (if you have good technique)...All that is to say is that sport specific factors need to be considered and that I don't think using the same models across all sports is really meaningful. Personally, I find running long distance in the build period is different that cycling in the build period.
Great video 👊
Hey Dylan, would you mind doing a specific video how should one train for a ~1.5h XC race? Would be greatly appreciated!
Their runners at all distances are doing incredible. I for one just can’t see the benefit of double day threshold and I’m starting to see more videos on it. Either way, great video Dylan
How can you not see the benefit of double threshold? 30 minutes of intervals at threshold AM and 30 minutes of threshold intervals PM creates more stimuli than only 30 minutes hard (above threshold) intervals. It's also less taxing on the body than say 50 minutes of threshold in one session (ex. 10x5 min). It's also easier to keep this routine for most parts of the year and keep doing it week in and week out. Lots of volume, lots of time at threshold, hill sprints for sprinting purposes and of course harder training closer to races.
Ok great, enjoy that recovery and leave me alone@@Xerfae
For running on high volume split days are essential to avoid injuries. For triathletes split day training is also essential they might do hard bike ride am with track workout pm on the same day.
@@aethylwulfeiii6502 every marathon I’ve done I never had to do split days. Depends on the person. Not essential but thanks for your comment lmao
Interesting content. I got my lactate threshold tested recently. Rough process 😂
Would also be great for you to deep dive into HRV and its value as a training metric
Nothing seems to please my Strava gods more than a longer ride with some focused tempo blocks. This revelation has validated the use of more tempo during my pre-season. It's not uncommon for Strava to give me a +5 in fitness after a single 4+ hour ride with tempo blocks. I think switching to "polarized" closer to race season is just another way of saying "taper".
That just means the algorithm they use gives that more weight, not that it makes you faster better than other training. That is a very good way to grow aerobic fitness, but it is not strictly your fitness
At 16:57 the bar graph shows Z1, Z2 and Z3. I can estimate the different percentages based on the color in the graph but what I can't understand is each graph is a different height. Is that left axis supposed to be time/miles? If so, what is the median point? Or to make it easy, what time/miles does Tuesday represent? Thx.
I think it's just a sample week that shows how you can structure things. I happen to use the exact same structure but with an extra rest day on thursday.
Height differences are definitely time, and color differences in each day represent how much time you might spend in each zone.
Weekends are pretty self explanatory, just nice and easy long rides, hence the height.
Monday is a rest day. Tuesday and friday are intensity days, but you might do sweet spot or threshold work on tuesday, and leave friday for the most intense work depending on your goals. If you're disciplined, you won't be having power spikes on tuesday so your time in each zone would be mostly yellow with a bit of green possibly due to warm up and cool down phases. On friday, depending on what you do, you will end up with a bit of yellow due to rest intervals, warm up and cool down from the working portion of the work out, but it would be mostly red since it's the most intense day and you're probably doing Vo2 or stuff like that.
I see wednesday as extra volume doing more Z2 but not quite as long as on weekends, and thursdays doing a recovery ride or complete rest.
As with everything, it only makes sense if you individualize it, but for me it looks like this:
Mon Off
Tue 1.5hr of SS
Wed 3.0hrs Z1
Thu Off
Fri 1 or 1.5 hr of VO2, or whatever MTB fitness weakness I choose to work on
Sat 3.0 hrs Z1
Sun 3.0 hrs Z1 but a different route to keep things fun. For example, I live in a hilly area, so I try to keep at least one of the weekend routes as flat as possible, and the other one I just ride whatever I find motivating that day as long as I can keep target power even if I end up climbing a lot.
Hope this helps.
Brilliant as always ❤❤
They have a high performance center, where ALL elites sports people go. Whether your Magnus Carlsen a chess champion, or Blumenthal the triathlete...all their elite athletes from different sports will often cross paths at this centre where they can share information but also they can relax amongst other people who know the struggles and sacrifices they make to be the best. The oil money they have helps also..
nordic skiing too, also the money for sport and kids is flowing in Norway, flowing like oil
Having spent time in the mountains and with many Norwegians I can tell you that it's my opinion that the reason there are so many excellent Norwegian athletes because of cross-country skiing which translates well to almost every endurance sport and is probably ranked above, skating, swimming and bicycle racing cardiovascularly.
I don’t cycle, I just like listening to this guys voice while I grocery shop.
East Germany dominated endurance sports (amateur cycling, sprint/endurance athletics/rowing/boxing) 1970/80s. I have no doubt that all of your information was widely known in East Germany at that time.
12:50 I thought the Backwad Hat Dylan was about to call you a P word right there 🤣
Definitely got their heads wrapped around training methods. But also, money... They got lots
Video idea! I've seen fragments of a training by Harrie Lavreysen, Jeffrey Hoogland and Robert Förstemann doing clean pulls and staircase jumps. Do they perform snatch, clean & jerk, deadlift, ... too apart from squats already shown in your gym exercise video? How about balancing exercises, plyometric work, ...
The track cyclist most certainly do clean and jerk, but I have only seen them do trap bar deadlifts instead of barbell deadlifts if they have the equipment.
nice work!
Go to Bergen and try for yourself. Most of the time during winter even some walk for groceries requires so much mental toughness that you rather will be doing some threshold intervals on treadmill. Plus you can afford that treadmill for maybe one or two beers at the club.
Hi Dylan. Would it be sufficient then to just keep intensity of the z2 just above LT1 to make sure one doesn't go over LT2? Rather than testing during sessions. Or it is so important to get it so precise because the z2 should happen at the top range of the zone 2?
Important thing about the Norwegian Method is that the mentioned athletes don't need high lactate rates and fast-twitch muscles to follow MvdP on one of the final climbs of a spring classic. Instead they focus on aerobice capacity and also efficiency and (IronMan) high fatmax power. Such things might be useful for a GC cylist as well.
But I'm sure a CXer/Classics specialist will have different criteria set by their trainers for lactate values to keep above/below than in the Norwegian method.
And then as you said different training methods might be used at different times of the year.
-> The result for those searching for the ultimate training method is simply confusing and probably hopeless
according Charlie, Carbs + Cycling: PAINKILLERS is all what it´s about :-)
Nils van der Poel from Sweden works out like a pro cyclist and won the 5 and 10000m speed skating olympic gold medals 😎😎
And then running back 10km to his hotel 🤯
nisse made 450 watts in 30 min cykling
@@porsche45353 i saw some interview where he said 400 something for 1,5 hours, thats just silly 😅
Interesting video. I was wondering... My understanding of periodization is that in essence you go from more general preparation to more race specific preparation. In that regard i would assume that for races with a more continuous effort (like triathlon), going from polarized in the general preparation phase to pyramidal in the race specific phase would be superior. Any thoughts on thus? It's more or less how i intended to plan my training for my A race in July :D
yes, periodization describes macro cycles in your training (like seasons: base, build,peak, race), while polarized/pyramidal models describe micro cycles (sometimes 7 days, sometimes 14 days). Most complete protocols (35-20 weeks) for long distance endurance events will switch from a polarized structure in base to pyramidal on the build phase to introduce race-specific demands (which will hopefully end up being around upper-Zone2 efforts.
thank you!
A lot of these training concepts (e.g. shorter intervals to let the blood lactate to come down) seem to come from cross country skiing. Makes sense because Norway is dominant in that
Could temperature play a role in Norwegian success? That is, you can't train as hard on HOT days as you get overheated, but in Norway it's so cold that you never overheat.
Training in heat is beneficial for aerobic fitness.
The why do we suck in Canada?
The amount of time they actually train in the cold would be relatively small. They are often overseas on training camps.
It might be true, because we can train all summer. But to cold, below -15C is a problem, causing astma. Therefore a lot of great skiiers breathes astma medication.
In a way potentially, as it’s very cold weather they trained a lot inside which makes it easier to control the pace/power to stay in very specific sub-threshold zone
Have you done a video on reverse periodization? Where you start (obviously with a good base fitness) with shorter high intensity rides, then switch to more longer zone two rides and a sprinkling of more specialized workouts as you approach riding season?
Idea being to pull your threshold/ftp up, then maintain it and work on specifically conditioning before you can go outside?
Great video. Thanks.
Hey Dylan, great Video as always! Whats your take on intensity control for the different interval sessions. For mere mortals without a lactate meter, it seems easier to control HIT sessions, so that one reaches the magical 90% max oxygen intake, whereas hitting the right intensity for threshold training with only GPS watch/powermeter can be tricky. Of course there is the "sweet spot" you mentioned, which I think can roughly be translated to intense tempo runs (Im a triathlete). Im curious if you think the benefits of threshold training (possibly reduced injury risk, esp for running) might outweigh the loss of control of the intensity. Thanks for the good research, keep it up!
For MASTERS ATHLETE who is not going to do any lactate testing how to you recommend staying in zone? currently targeting "70% max HR or below" to stay in zone 1 and not caring about the zone2/zone3 split.
Have you done any testing on yourself with SmO2 and Lactate? I think this is why we see these Norwegians using these devices so much. Staying in zone as fatigue creeps. SmO2 is an amazing science and I wonder if we will map it to lactate, or if it will become its own indicator.
Very nice video.
Thanks for another great video. This may sound like a silly question, but I have been riding for quite a few years and have bounced around between having 5 zones and 7 zones and now 3. Do you simply devide the 7 zones wattage between 3 to figure out the correct intensity? This would be quite a good YT short graphic maybe...