As a guy who teaches renal and cardiovascular physiology at a medical school, I totally agree with all of this. So much of it depends on the conditions. A key element is that whenever it is harder for your body to maintain a body temperature in the face of stimuli that want to increase it, then the heart rate will increase for any given power output. This is because the heart is going to have to pump more blood into the skin so that you can radiate heat and that means less is available to power the muscles. It's as simple as that except that that means it's not very simple. The complexity is that there are many environmental factors that tend to make your body temperature increase. Your body will gain heat as a result of convection (how hot it is outside), through radiation (shade or direct sunlight), and through heat generated by muscular exertion and other metabolic activities (your power output). If it's very hot outside you gain more heat through convection (and lose less through breathing). If you're in the direct sunlight, you gain more heat through radiation. If it's very humid outside, the efficiency of sweating as a mechanism to lower your body temperature becomes much less effective. Actually if you are a very fast cyclist then the air moving around you will help with that. I live in Houston so those are the things that mostly are on my mind, but altitude is also an issue. When it's really hot outside, you should rely more on heart rate and RPE because if you don't you could get yourself into trouble; and that is assuming that you are staying on top of hydration and electrolyte input. Obviously your body can heat adapt, but not enough to fully compensate when the temperature is above about 90 and the humidity is high. Before you're fully heat adapted the effect on heart rate is much greater, but no amount of heat adaptation is going to fully eliminate that effect,. Once you are heated adapted the combination of heart rate and RPE is probably the best measures of how hard you are actually working. I'm talking in all of this about pacing a ride, not so much about interval training, which is an element that I know much less about. Although some of the same elements are going to come into play even there.
@@aaronpostlethwaite8449 It's a great question and i hasten to mention Im not an exercise physiologist, although I go to primary literature to get answers to my cycling questions. Turns out there is some literature on this, but not a lot, and as you might imagine the phenomenon is also multifactorial. Heat stress can certainly contribute but it's definitely not the only factor. Dehydration also, because a decrease in plasma volume will lead to a decrease in cardiac output owing to the length tension characteristics of cardiac muscle. Bear in mind that it is possible for an athlete to become volume depleted even in optimal external temperatures, althiugh experienced riders usually avoid this. It also reflects depletion of energy stores in different muscle fiber types, causing some muscle groups to rely on less efficient muscle fiber types. Another factor is micro damage to muscles which further decreases their efficiency. The reduced efficiency occurs because they're having to use more ATP to deal with increased ionic leak across the plasma membranes of the damaged cells. And more severe damage will temporarily prevent them from contracting at all. I found a nice blog post on this with a link below. It really is an interesting question, and of course the length of time required for this decoupling to occur is a measure of somebody's aerobic fitness alancouzens.blogspot.com/2009/10/science-of-decoupling.html Edit added, here is another somewhat longer discussion. It highlights the complexity and it's by someone who knows more about this than I do. scientifictriathlon.com/tts343/#t-1653372908850
I really like how someone who has the level of expertise that Stephen has still has an approach with a fair bit of "you know, if you're more or less doing this, or listening to this feeling, you're on the right track". Takes a lot of the stress out of trying to get it perfect.
I am a 63 year old cyclist-XC skier. I am amazed at how training techniques will come & go according to the flavor of the moment. Watts-HR-lactates-Tabata-8min. Been there done that. I have done away with all the gizmos, I just go by feel, good day-OK day-bad day & adjust accordingly. As the Doc said, listen to your body, perception of your efforts is where it's at !
I have been cycling for my entire adult life and now that I am older I've had to back off the intensity. When I was younger I could go out and smash it all the time and recover quickly. Now it takes me days to recover from a high intensity ride. It's been a hard lesson to learn for me. Getting old isn't for sissies 🤣. Now I do a lot more low intensity work using heart rate. This has helped so much! I do one ride a week, usually with others where I hammer the rest is LSD, long, slow, distance with a low heart rate. Everyone is different but this works for me 😊
I used to tell people that I was a cyclist. I figured out that I was in-fact an escapist. I recall some time ago I was out on the first long ride of the season. It was a really hot day early in the year. I was 5 miles from home after a slogging 60 mile ride. I was not prepared for the ride. My mind was drifting. A thought that passed by was: "Geez, as soon as I get home, I need to go for a bike ride." WHAT?!? I realized at that moment that the reason I ride was for these long escapes. The very best rides are ones where you can let your mind drift. If you just need to go out after work and hammer out a hard 20 miles to fill in what would otherwise be a training gap, fine. But the VO2 Max style training is in support of the long and slow. You are a better rider if you make time for this. People have training backwards focusing on "max" output. Do the long rides with long ride heart rate, and "max" will take care of itself.
Tried a low intensity ride yesterday (first time pretty much ever) at roughly 60% of my HRmax. Lots of discipline needed cause people were overtaking me left right and center. Seiler talks about that testosterone driven response in situations like these and I can tell you it's hard to resist not to counter. Next time I'll wear a sign "low int ride today" or sthg like that
Back when I swallowed the power pill, and I used to train to power, I was always uneasy about training to an output. It never really felt right. Heart Rate, whatever the conditions is a direct physiological measure of your response to the effort. Power is just the output that your capable of in those conditions. Its only really useful in comparing yourself to others. It’s always struck me as odd to train using a variable output measurement rather than a direct physiological measurement. I can tell you this, after switching back to HR based training, as I get older, I enjoy my training much more and am better at listening to my body, and I don’t overtrain anymore….but I’m just another sad old MAMIL, so what do I know….😊
@@jendamobil6149 Yeah, but doing intervals to HR is what gets you stronger without burning out. You can't always hit that interval Power number, because you've burned too much HR recently.
@@notreally2406 no, power is always same, HR can change just because you slept less, stress, etc... if you have right power zones nothing can compare to this; from some level when you are advanced cyclist HR is useless, I can ride low Z2 power and still be in recovery HR zone etc.
@jendamobil6149 "...HR is useless..." how wrong can a person be? HR and power are separate things, they both have pros and cons, but both are useful and - in most pro coaches' opinions - necessary.
11:40 60% of my Heart rate reserve is 88 bpm. This seems crazy low for a low intensity bike ride. Right now my endurance rides seem easy and i can listen to audiobooks if I stick below 140bpm (max 185, resting 38). edit: I found a similar comment with an answer. Dr Seiler forgot to add back your resting heart rate when he described the process.
BPM limit he mentioned is resting heart rate + 55-65% of reserve, not just percentage of reserve. So in your case, using 60% the limit is at 125BPM. Still relatively low BPM but for a healthy person indicating at least some level of excertion, and in your case it should be plenty more than a slow walk in a park.
@@OYeahanyeah I got there in the end by listening to another interview by him. In this interview, specifically at my 11:40 timestamp, he does not mention adding back your heart rate to the total, leading to my confusion.
@@BLaZEjjp yeah I was a bit confused as well, but it seemed the only logical and sensible thing. But for me I'd need to keep really low power to be under even 65%. That would be for like 9h+ endurance ride or maybe even multi-day ride (haven't tried either yet, max was a little over than 7h saddle time, and that was not consecutive 7h but there were 2 or 3 breaks) I have a feeling my L1, L2, L3 HRs ranges likely are narrower than typical. Maybe would benefit with VO2 lab testing.
Temperature too. at cold temperatures your drift may not occur at all until 3 hours in at 200 watts. at 30 degrees C you might start drifting after an hour at 200 watts. so as well as load and measured stress the involvement of external temp will also hugely effect the boundaries shifting.
Yup I live in a hot part of Brazil and temp has a massive impact. In the summer I regularly get up at 05:00 to start testing at 06:00 in a relatively cooler ambient.
I've always found my HR the best indicator of training/fitness. Good to know that my HR based threshold efforts are the best way to start before zeroing in on an actual FTP number. I like to do 2 x 20min @ 176bpm (my max HR is 191).... And let the power fall wherever. Then use those FTP numbers moving forward
@@neoneherefrom5836 What finicky metric, heart rate? Power meter doesn't give you any feedback about physiological or environmental factors; heart rate does. Best to train with both: power to track your progress, heart to regulate the effort.
@@carlmons I’ve had my heart rate high and feel fine and low yet feel like crap. Heart rate isn’t even effective for calculating calories burn. It’s fine to measure in post but as a driving principle metric, power and RPE is the way to go.
@@neoneherefrom5836 Its not about feelings, and it's not about calories; it's about performance. Car engines lose power when it's hot, so does your body, a well as other factors like altitude, sleep, what you had for breakfast, etc.. Rising heart rate without increased effort is a warning sign that you're either approaching heat stroke or exhaustion, and you won't feel it until it's too late. Your power meter would tell you to keep pushing. Heart rate is an indicator of the status of your body, more like a water temp and gas gauge in your car, a power meter is more like your car's speedo- it can't tell you if something's wrong. If you train with heart rate long enough, you'll come to understand exactly how long you can sustain a given heart rate before bonking- a power meter can't do that without taking physiological and environmental variables into account, which is why I would not use a power meter without heart rate. For example, my FTP is at 155bpm, and my all day power is 153, whether I feel good or like crap- it's really that reliable. Is your power output that consistent? The 2010's were all about power (probably driven by marketing), but the most current experts are back to focusing on heart rate. I train with both, race with heart rate only, except time trials.
Man, thank You so much for this. It makes a ton of sense. I realize I have made a lot of training mistakes, burning out quickly, not enjoying riding anymore
Similar concept to zone 2 with running. Cycling zones would be a bit lower as its not weight bearing but generally 80-89% of lt2 or 50-60min anaerobic threshold...which should also be ftp heartrate average. I have a 199 true max heartrate at 42...so for running my zone2 is 145-160bpm. Pace is always affected by heat and humidity. Advantage to cycling on the flat is increased wind speed for air cooling on the skin...like a radiator for a car. Aiming for Mitochondrial density and oxidative enzymes & left ventricle peaks stimulus around 65-70% heartrate reseve. Cheers.
As always, you any Dr. Seiler are spot on. I wish there was a little reiteration of HR vs. LT1 and LT 2 for clarification of where drift occurs. I believe he touched on it in his last video, but I know he goes in depth on his channel.
So on point. Two days after this video, on July 4th, the Giro d'Italia Donne had a very hot day of 35C/95F. American rider and GC contender Kristen Faulkner blew up at the base of climb 3 of 4 because, as she mentioned on Strava, she was dehydrated and setting several personal highs for Heart Rate.
Just wanted to say how much I love your content. I'm not the best cyclist but I really like to dig into these types of technical details. Keep on the great work.
Very interesting Dylan. I periodically test my fitness by measuring my power output at the end of a 1 hr turbo ride whilst keeping my heart rate strictly below the max for Zone 2 (5 Zone model). A good result for me is 165 Watts with heart rate throughout the ride held at 145 bpm (vs max 186 bpm). During the hour I have to back off my power to keep my heart rate at the 145 bpm max. After an hour the final 5 minute average power number is the result I'm looking for (no sprinting at the end!). I then plot the results over weeks/ months to see trends. If I've been off the bike for 2 weeks or sick the loss in performance is very clear and measurable in lost Watts. It's easy to ride at Zone 2 for an hour so this test is much less painful than an FTP test.
Yes! Try this both ways if you have an erg. Ride in a power in z1 (3zone) or z2 (5zone) for 1 hour or 2 hour etc. Later repeat this ride with same power to see if HR drift is delayed and what HR was compared to previous.
While I see what you are doing, heart rate can be impacted by so many other variables, such as sleep, medication, time of day, diet, hydration status, stress, etc. etc. This seems especially true at lower ranges. Anecdotally, I took a few weeks off of running, and my HR was elevated about 30 BPM from before I stopped when I came back on a hot day! Though a run at the an easy pace felt the same, my heart rate was 175, vs the 145 it would have been at the same pace previously. Point is, if your heart rate is lower at a given power, that is great! but if it is higher at a given power, I wouldn't get discouraged and assume that you have lost fitness.
@@loganjackson9559 Right, I am looking for longer trends, not one-off results. If you get more fit, your HR will trend lower for that same effort over multiple week/month view.
Dylan, thank you also for the weightlifting reference, great insight as a strength and power athlete (football) growing up, the stepping up weight then reducing the reps analogy is perfect. I always was thinking there’s something completely different about endurance training than strength but they have very strong correlations. I’m glad to reconnect with your knowledge pipeline after a long break (literally broke my leg last year and back on the trail for 6 weeks so far this year). You continue to inspire on Strava and educate and entertain online!
Excellent series. 12:24 I noticed this on my last ride, trying for a lower heart rate I found myself thinking about life, exacting what I don't want to be doing, and the opposite reason I am on the bike in the first place, I had to really try and focus on pedaling technique, and trying to find new ways to get an even better pedal stroke, and bike control, I think there is even more to be gained while on the bike at low intensities because you can switch your training focus to things like: riding with one leg, air pedaling without being on the pedal with one leg while coasting (see how bad your pedal stroke really is!), balancing on the pedals with little weight on hands out of the saddle, coasting both left and right foot forward, turning hard between objects on the road, stretching and being comfortable having the bike move under you out of the saddle, finding the rhythm of the bike while you pull the bars like a sprint without pedaling while out of the saddle (think BMX sprint, you will feel the sweet spot if you get it right), using flat pedals, etc.
Here’s a big question I ask myself often: if my HR is drifting, should I back off the power and stay in zone or let the HR drift up? Intuitively, it seems like a good thing because it means my body is recruiting more fibers which makes more metabolic stress and thus is training in a nutshell. It also makes sense that you’re at a certain stroke volume at a certain HR and staying at that is beneficial instead of drifting? I’m also curious why he rarely mentions intervals above 8 minutes. Surely a time-trialist does intervals longer than that? Maybe it changes for different parts of the season. I get my best aerobic adaptations when I’m extending time in zone from 30->45->75->100 minutes near threshold, but that’s not anywhere near 90% of VO2 max HR.
The best informed answer I can think of is, lower your power as needed for endurance / recovery rides (low power). For high intensity, I can imagine a scenario where you reach your max hr before the interval is over, in which case you need to back off anyway, but for other 'hard' trainings, I'd probably try to stick to my power zones, especially if you think the higher HR is due to exogenous factors such as heat or humidity...
In a webinar with a rowing coach from Princeton, he said to maintain power even as heart rate is drifting during steady state sessions. I've been following this advice for a while, but I'm not really sure how true it is anymore. Personally, I think there's a difference between heart rate drift (~5 bpm), which is your aerobic system dealing with the increased duration below the lactate threshold, and your heart rate increasing 10+ beats, which would indicate that you weren't in the proper training zone in the first place. I'd be interested to learn more.
Excellent discussion. If you wanted to do a longer zone 2 ride, seems like it makes sense to lower the load each hour. Like in the example he gave for himself, start at 200 and maybe lower the watts 10 per hour. That might keep the stress relatively constant.
Your heart never stop working. You will know when it does. If you want to target 300w effort. It will come down to if your heart can sustain this effort. Meaning pump the blood needed for this effort. Everything comes down to your heart.
The point at 10 minute mark is very important for me. I have 55bpm resting heart rate. Yet my heart rate went over 200bpm on some hard rides (some even went over 210bpm). This point means most of the heart rate guideline I've heard so far need to be recalibrated for my high range heart rate. I don't know how long I've been wrongly assumed my heart rate zones for endurance training til now. Thank you so much.
An alternative wording to this title would be: Stress vs Load for ..... Stress is most often measured by heart rate and load by power level. Dr Seiler discusses how stress (heart rate) increases during a constant load workout, but aren't workout zones really intended to be stress zones? If our goal is to perform a long L1 stress training session, shouldn't we reduce load as we see our stress (heart rate) level increase? Maybe I missed it, but I did not hear this question directly addressed.
I have many friends around who bought powermeter and within few months they overtrained heavily. Z1 or Z2 zones are great info, but these zones do NOT work for unlimited time... You must watch your HR and total time. Everything must be done gradually. And Z1 zone does not mean your NP from whole ride is in Z1 range. Your whole ride must be in the right zone, all the time. Otherwise it is not easy Z1 ride :)
So Dr. Seiler is saying we should ride at 60% of HR reserve. Assume a RHR of 40 and a Max (cycling) HR of 200, the reserve should be 160. 60% of 160 this is 96. So the rides should be done at 40 (RHR) + 96 (60% of reserve) = 136 HR?
All these formulas are just educated guesses. The only real thing you can do to find your LT1 is to use a lactate meter with a slow ramp test. Same for LT2. These correlate well with your own HR. Which you can then monitor while riding. The more training you do below LT1 improves your mitochondria, and you will get stronger and put out more power over time … at the same HR …. Not a quick fix though 😎, takes time to grow and reprogramme the mitochondria. Ask Tadej Pogačar 😉
A lot my buddies think I’m crazy because I focus more on HR than any other metric. Focusing on the intensity my body is exerting is a much more productive measurement than the wattage IMO. I have a power meter but I could actually do without it. I generally only look at power numbers after the ride. External factors that effect heart rate only make the argument to focus on HR stronger.
Excellent video, thank you. I especially like the concerted effort into trying to answer key macro questions that are applicable to a great many athletes. Even to us 'over the hill' Masters!
Dr. Seiler has a killer chart/metric where he divides 6min power/%HRR and for long rides you can see where things started to fall apart. I created a graph for it on Training Peaks. Super helpful. Also made polarized by HR vs polarized by PWR charts which is really interesting to watch over the course of a season. (For me, the more fit i get, the more those come into alignment where time spent below LT1 HR starts matching time spent below LT1 power zone. Before fitness my heart rate indicates above LT1 while my power indicates less than LT1.)
I'm glad he mentioned the brain 'zeroing in' on other things when we ask effort from ourseleves. There are things going on in our mammal bodies that we are never aware of. Some things we are, like pain, heart rate and breathing.
This was really a good video. I am a 65 year old rider who really has a hard time riding at low tempo. I need to get better at this, and this video I will watch more than once.
You and me brother! I'm 64, it just feels natural to up the tempo every time I get on the bike. Me and backwards hat Dylan, twin sons of a different mother!!
@@ronbell7920 One thing I did for myself this holiday season was to buy a Garmin 1030 Plus cycling computer (a Black Friday sale). It allows you to create bike workouts of your own, or use Garmin-provided training plans that include regular workouts. But the BEST thing about it is that during a workout, a screen pops up that shows you whether you are cycling within (or without) the parameters of the workout. To activate this feature, you must have a power meter. I have been using it for about a month now, and the workout screen really helps me keep an eye on whether I am mashing too hard or keeping within the right zone. The device also tracks your weekly training stress score and lets you know if you are pushing the limits of your age-specific & fitness-specific cumulative training targets. I realize not everyone trains with a power meter (I have a Stages on 1 bike, and a Wahoo Power Link on 2nd bike), nor wants to buy a fancy bike computer. But I have been training with power for almost 20 years, and the new Garmin was an investment in my own fitness planning. Best of luck to you.......us old geezers gotta be careful not to chase the young guns too much!!! On the other hand, every now & then, it is fun to zoom past a fella half our age!!!
@@rickguerrero2282 , thanks for the reply. We have a lot in common! I have been using Garmin Vector 3 pedals (power meter) and Magnus Smart trainer (w/power). I have not been as focused when riding on the road, but during trainer sessions I pay more attention to the data. Good luck to you "old man"!!
My HR reserve is 141, so I calculate 141*.0.55=77bpm +39resting HR equals 116bpm 65% is 130bpm. I used to use 142bpm for Z2. It looks like I've been over doing it with steady rides
How does cadence play into this? If I ride 200 watts at 100 rpm my hr will be higher than riding 200 w at 80 rpm which would be higher than riding 200 w at 65 rpm. So, for me there is a lot of play between riding a specific power for a specific hr over time of which I can have the option of reducing cadence at given power or reduce power at a given cadence for a specific hr.
Ive noticed this disparity with training times during the day as well. I tend to have a lot more room to push wattage in the morning if im measuring z2 from hr, but in the afternoon/evening z2 is more matched between wattage and hr
That was excellent. It's not an easy answer, so you need to be listening carefully and you have to apply these ideas to your goals and particular situation. Thanks for a great training lecture!
The only metric I pay attention to is heart rate. Why? it determines how well rested we are and really hard we are pushing it. It is called a red line for a good reason.
I generally agree, as long as you have some method of monitoring progress. Power is great at that (more power / same power for more time). Most people could happily substitute power for Strava segments or their own known local loop.
Great channel. Dylan, Dr. Seiler speaks of HR reserve and Max HR, I wonder if these two reference points should be both taken on the bike? (For karvonen formula), consider that taking rest hearth rate while laying down or being on the bike can give quite different results. We can notice a difference even while seating on a chair compared to seating on the bike due to the different body position. While for the max heart rate test, I have found that it can reach different values according to the methods, eg. riding the bike with dedicated method or wiring on an elliptical trainer when using also the hands for moving the machine, generally Max HR is higher in the latter. Appreciated your comment here.
I heard him say roughly 60% of HRR which I don't think is correct. That would be way too low for low intensity, but 100% of HRR is about spot on for my Z2 rides at the low end.
You're right on target with this discussion! Thanks so much for these super informative interviews. I'm not a racer. I just enjoy long, low intensity rides. I find myself doing very well on these, rides up to about 2.5 hours, then my heart rate starts gradually creeping up towards my LT. Up to around that ~2.5 hour point my aerobic decoupling is very good. But the longer I ride past that point the worse the overall aerobic decoupling for the ride becomes. If I stop before this point it looks like I had a great ride, but if I go for another couple of hours that changes completely. Did I over-do it, or is this good training?
If you do this every ride, it is over doing it. But having a long, low intensity ride every week is a fantastic part of training for this exact reason. Long and slow will increase your aerobic capacity over time.
Is there any merit to adjusting power output to keep heart rate constant? Not being an endurance guy myself, I reduce power in the face of a rising heart rate response after 2 or so hours. I am not sure this has been the best strategy. Intuitively, in the face of heat stress or other stressors that compete for my physiology, I think reducing power makes sense. When the stress goes up internally the same power output can't be done externally with the same energy resources. In an ideal world I would be measuring my LT levels relative to LT1 and it would be quite interesting to see where I am at in the beginning vs where I am at in the end. Even with power adjusted to keep a constant heart rate, I wonder if the stress of going beyond my normal endurance capacity is too great and puts me well above LT1 at the end, thus accumulating a lot of stress to recover from. I also like autonomic component he touched on. I use HRV as a metric for internal load using a morning measurement. Even after a well controlled (heart rate wise) 3-4 hour endurance ride, the next day my heart rate variability tends to drop considerably. My weekly endurance rides for a while have been the same number of hours, so, the only stress I have been seeing that is new is the heat stress. I try my best to adjust the power to keep the heart rate the same. But, in the end I suspect that even with adjusting power to keep heart rate the same, external stress factors are just a bit too taxing. I don't really feel it in the moment, but, when I take that HRV measurement the next morning I realize "yup, that ride was a lot on me" when I see that rapid drop in HRV along with increases in resting heart rate.
As someone who is also largely a runner, we primarily train zones based on heart rate because accurate power meters for running aren’t common. As highlighted by this video: Equal power does not mean equal effort (heart rate) > particularly as you get into longer durations.
Thanks Dylan! I would love a video on best resistances / weighted exercises for IN season, just like to go to the gym twice a week in season but find it often burns my muscles, thanks again!
Just one comment - Heart rate reserve is not immune to weather conditions. 60-65% of heart rate reserve as a low intensity session is quite challenging for high humidity high temperature conditions and therein, you start to disconnect between heart rate and external power or pace. There is a definite duration impact on the rate of this discconnect appearing (obviously starting out is less of a concern than the last 3/4 of the session)
Cardiac drift can also be down to dehydration especially if you're on a turbo trainer for 2+ hours. Also, if you ride in the morning there's a good chance you start the ride fasted then begin eating after 30 minutes, 60 minutes etc., the digestion of the food you consumed will raise your heart rate.
Interesting topic. I'm still a little curious about how to use HR to monitor load when training on the MTB. For example, I can target a certain effort on climbs, but on some more physical descents my HR doesn't really recover (especially when really ripping and having fun). I feel like it's important for race success for me to work out the systems that help me get down faster, even if I'm not really putting watts through the pedals. How does this "effort" on the descents factor into the overall training load?
Or you can use a J. Friel ballpark way of determining your aerobic threshold by subtracting 30 beats per minute from your lactate threshold heart rate. To find a AT training zone do +/- 2bpm. So let say your LTHR is 180 bpm, then AT will be 150 bpm and AT training zone will be 148-152 bpm.
I feel super dumb... Can someone explain real quick? If I have a resting HR of 60 and a max of 168, that makes my reserve 108. If I do 60% of my 108 RHR, than the HR I'm trying to maintain on an easy ride is 64, which I then add to my RHR? So the HR I should be trying to hit is 60+64=124 bpm?
As somebody with a lowish resting (40) and highish reserve (197-40=157) doing 134bpm today felt very easy indeed. I was trying to do 145bpm before today. I struggle with the idea that if my resting was higher and so reserve lower, but max the same 197, this 60% would be higher than my 134
I'm similiar to you. 203-60= 143 puts me around 146. I've been trying to ride around 135 (which feels like active recovery), but with my higher resting heart rate maybe I should target 145.
@Shaylor: Am I mistaking or did Seiler say for low intensity rides to be in the 60% of your heart rate reserve? Meaning this would put you around 94 BPM for those kinda rides?
Living in Thailand and cycling can make training to power problematic if it’s hot and humid. The question is, is training indoors with aircon and tan more effective for muscle performance increase or riding in the heat? When using the garmin outside it always says unproductive as I noticed my heart rate can be 160 ish for z2 power whereas indoors it’s 120ish. Does the garmin also use your training effectiveness based on heart rate which can vary. Does it matter if you do a training session where the heart rate is a tad higher because the garmin seems to think no and can be quite demoralizing to be constantly told your training is ineffective.
I agree, it can feel demoralising. When I realised that, I made a conscious decision to ignore it. I take a screen shot of that summary screen after every ride for a future video where I want to show how Garmin is utterly clueless. Ignore it, IMO. I finished a race and its summary was "Overreaching". It's automated and pretty much a curiosity and nothing more for me. These past 3 days it has said, "Productive" and suggests 3 days recovery after every ride as I do what I have on the plan 3 days in a row. Nonsensical.
So, if I want to improve my endurance... let's say that I'd like to be able to ride for 3h at the HR that I am currently able to maintain for 2h at 200W: does it mean that I would need to increase the duration of my rides, but only keeping my HR at the same level, while lowering my power (190W, 180W, ..., 150W) during that extra time ? If so, doesn't it all go back to the increase of your volume ? Polarization would then be 1- slowly increase your volume by only watching at your HR, then 2- hit the HIIT only by watching at your power and, once again, by slowly increasing the duration and the intensity of the intervals. But then, following Seiler's example with a TT athlete (with a 400W TP ! :-O) that would train with 3x8min, then 4x8, then 3x10, etc., intervals, doesn't it come back to... working at the threshold power, so in the Z2 !? What's for sure is that I spent a lot of time during the last two Winters training on short HIIT: yeah I did some of my PR outdoors on very short segments (5min max intervals, kinda VO2max...), but I lost *a lot* on the endurance side ! Unable to finish 10min+ intervals at the power I was able to produce back then...
He didn’t really address how to handle cardiac drift on endurance rides. I’d say start at a lower intensity so you finish your 3 or 4 hour rides at the proper heart rate. Jump on the trainer in erg mode and start at 160 watts for an hour, 170 for an hour…if the cardiac drift gets too bad, the ride should probably count as one of your high intensity workouts for the week.
I thought what Stephen said made perfect sense though I could split my head open before getting TrainerRoad people to understand that science supersedes business model ( And believe me I’ve gone at it with Nate on topic to no end!) regardless! My favorite parts of your back and forth is your brief synopsis after point that sums up for those who might have never heard the knowledge! 💕🚴🏼✌️
Thanks for this video Dylan and great knowledge guest I find this and the sceience very interesting and would like to apply it. I have now since on my garmin made adjustments to be set to heart rate reserve % and I did also know my correct max and resting. However this has now brought my zone 2 every day base rides topend 16 higher than before and also matches what I had set my running zones to now. Had I been training slightly under in general on the bike also I always tried and thought I should be training at lower hr for my cycling than running (non weight bearing, I may also may well be a better runner too however if not currently or for 3 months, now full cycling training instead ).🤷 What do u suggest keep the great channe many thanks Jon
Say you're out for a 4 hour ride at 200w. At hour 3, your body for some reason is spiking your heart rate. Normally you've been at 130bpm and been totally good. Now you're at 150bpm, same terrain. Maybe it's hot. Maybe you didn't sleep enough. You FEEL fine but the HR metric is indicating that you're stressing more. Should you back off and get that HR back down, or ride the rest off of feel?
As a guy who teaches renal and cardiovascular physiology at a medical school, I totally agree with all of this. So much of it depends on the conditions. A key element is that whenever it is harder for your body to maintain a body temperature in the face of stimuli that want to increase it, then the heart rate will increase for any given power output. This is because the heart is going to have to pump more blood into the skin so that you can radiate heat and that means less is available to power the muscles. It's as simple as that except that that means it's not very simple. The complexity is that there are many environmental factors that tend to make your body temperature increase. Your body will gain heat as a result of convection (how hot it is outside), through radiation (shade or direct sunlight), and through heat generated by muscular exertion and other metabolic activities (your power output). If it's very hot outside you gain more heat through convection (and lose less through breathing). If you're in the direct sunlight, you gain more heat through radiation. If it's very humid outside, the efficiency of sweating as a mechanism to lower your body temperature becomes much less effective. Actually if you are a very fast cyclist then the air moving around you will help with that. I live in Houston so those are the things that mostly are on my mind, but altitude is also an issue. When it's really hot outside, you should rely more on heart rate and RPE because if you don't you could get yourself into trouble; and that is assuming that you are staying on top of hydration and electrolyte input. Obviously your body can heat adapt, but not enough to fully compensate when the temperature is above about 90 and the humidity is high. Before you're fully heat adapted the effect on heart rate is much greater, but no amount of heat adaptation is going to fully eliminate that effect,. Once you are heated adapted the combination of heart rate and RPE is probably the best measures of how hard you are actually working. I'm talking in all of this about pacing a ride, not so much about interval training, which is an element that I know much less about. Although some of the same elements are going to come into play even there.
When heart rate decoupling starts to occur after a couple of hours is that due to the inability of the body to remove enough heat or something else?
@@aaronpostlethwaite8449 It's a great question and i hasten to mention Im not an exercise physiologist, although I go to primary literature to get answers to my cycling questions. Turns out there is some literature on this, but not a lot, and as you might imagine the phenomenon is also multifactorial. Heat stress can certainly contribute but it's definitely not the only factor. Dehydration also, because a decrease in plasma volume will lead to a decrease in cardiac output owing to the length tension characteristics of cardiac muscle. Bear in mind that it is possible for an athlete to become volume depleted even in optimal external temperatures, althiugh experienced riders usually avoid this. It also reflects depletion of energy stores in different muscle fiber types, causing some muscle groups to rely on less efficient muscle fiber types. Another factor is micro damage to muscles which further decreases their efficiency. The reduced efficiency occurs because they're having to use more ATP to deal with increased ionic leak across the plasma membranes of the damaged cells. And more severe damage will temporarily prevent them from contracting at all. I found a nice blog post on this with a link below. It really is an interesting question, and of course the length of time required for this decoupling to occur is a measure of somebody's aerobic fitness alancouzens.blogspot.com/2009/10/science-of-decoupling.html
Edit added, here is another somewhat longer discussion. It highlights the complexity and it's by someone who knows more about this than I do. scientifictriathlon.com/tts343/#t-1653372908850
Outstanding comment. Dylan, you should pin this one! 📌
@@aaronpostlethwaite8449 I'm not a doctor, but I believe that a high heart rate at low exertion is one of the symptoms of heat stroke, so yes.
@@brianmessemer2973 Agreed - 100% pin worthy comment!
I really like how someone who has the level of expertise that Stephen has still has an approach with a fair bit of "you know, if you're more or less doing this, or listening to this feeling, you're on the right track".
Takes a lot of the stress out of trying to get it perfect.
I am a 63 year old cyclist-XC skier. I am amazed at how training techniques will come & go according to the flavor of
the moment. Watts-HR-lactates-Tabata-8min. Been there done that. I have done away with all the gizmos, I just go by feel, good day-OK day-bad day & adjust accordingly. As the Doc said, listen to your body, perception of your efforts is where it's at !
I have been cycling for my entire adult life and now that I am older I've had to back off the intensity. When I was younger I could go out and smash it all the time and recover quickly. Now it takes me days to recover from a high intensity ride. It's been a hard lesson to learn for me. Getting old isn't for sissies 🤣. Now I do a lot more low intensity work using heart rate. This has helped so much! I do one ride a week, usually with others where I hammer the rest is LSD, long, slow, distance with a low heart rate. Everyone is different but this works for me 😊
I used to tell people that I was a cyclist. I figured out that I was in-fact an escapist. I recall some time ago I was out on the first long ride of the season. It was a really hot day early in the year. I was 5 miles from home after a slogging 60 mile ride. I was not prepared for the ride. My mind was drifting. A thought that passed by was: "Geez, as soon as I get home, I need to go for a bike ride." WHAT?!? I realized at that moment that the reason I ride was for these long escapes. The very best rides are ones where you can let your mind drift. If you just need to go out after work and hammer out a hard 20 miles to fill in what would otherwise be a training gap, fine. But the VO2 Max style training is in support of the long and slow. You are a better rider if you make time for this. People have training backwards focusing on "max" output. Do the long rides with long ride heart rate, and "max" will take care of itself.
That point on focus versus distraction, and appetite being an indicator of effort, was super insightful!
Tried a low intensity ride yesterday (first time pretty much ever) at roughly 60% of my HRmax. Lots of discipline needed cause people were overtaking me left right and center. Seiler talks about that testosterone driven response in situations like these and I can tell you it's hard to resist not to counter. Next time I'll wear a sign "low int ride today" or sthg like that
I completely relate 😅
Or just put your ego on hold and stop comparing… it’s so liberating 😅
😂😂😂
Back when I swallowed the power pill, and I used to train to power, I was always uneasy about training to an output. It never really felt right. Heart Rate, whatever the conditions is a direct physiological measure of your response to the effort. Power is just the output that your capable of in those conditions. Its only really useful in comparing yourself to others. It’s always struck me as odd to train using a variable output measurement rather than a direct physiological measurement. I can tell you this, after switching back to HR based training, as I get older, I enjoy my training much more and am better at listening to my body, and I don’t overtrain anymore….but I’m just another sad old MAMIL, so what do I know….😊
I find power very useful for comparing myself to myself.
@@aarondcmedia9585 Yes, only POWER is the real comparison.
@@jendamobil6149 Yeah, but doing intervals to HR is what gets you stronger without burning out. You can't always hit that interval Power number, because you've burned too much HR recently.
@@notreally2406 no, power is always same, HR can change just because you slept less, stress, etc... if you have right power zones nothing can compare to this; from some level when you are advanced cyclist HR is useless, I can ride low Z2 power and still be in recovery HR zone etc.
@jendamobil6149 "...HR is useless..." how wrong can a person be?
HR and power are separate things, they both have pros and cons, but both are useful and - in most pro coaches' opinions - necessary.
11:40 60% of my Heart rate reserve is 88 bpm. This seems crazy low for a low intensity bike ride. Right now my endurance rides seem easy and i can listen to audiobooks if I stick below 140bpm (max 185, resting 38).
edit: I found a similar comment with an answer. Dr Seiler forgot to add back your resting heart rate when he described the process.
I did not get this math also. Getting a low number that I reach when walking around the house.
Elite resting HR for a max of only 185
BPM limit he mentioned is resting heart rate + 55-65% of reserve, not just percentage of reserve. So in your case, using 60% the limit is at 125BPM. Still relatively low BPM but for a healthy person indicating at least some level of excertion, and in your case it should be plenty more than a slow walk in a park.
@@OYeahanyeah I got there in the end by listening to another interview by him. In this interview, specifically at my 11:40 timestamp, he does not mention adding back your heart rate to the total, leading to my confusion.
@@BLaZEjjp yeah I was a bit confused as well, but it seemed the only logical and sensible thing. But for me I'd need to keep really low power to be under even 65%. That would be for like 9h+ endurance ride or maybe even multi-day ride (haven't tried either yet, max was a little over than 7h saddle time, and that was not consecutive 7h but there were 2 or 3 breaks) I have a feeling my L1, L2, L3 HRs ranges likely are narrower than typical. Maybe would benefit with VO2 lab testing.
Listening to Dr Stephen Seiler's talk was both interesting and informative . Great content .
I wonder if these could be made available as a podcast - not much visual info in this episode...
Temperature too. at cold temperatures your drift may not occur at all until 3 hours in at 200 watts. at 30 degrees C you might start drifting after an hour at 200 watts. so as well as load and measured stress the involvement of external temp will also hugely effect the boundaries shifting.
Yup I live in a hot part of Brazil and temp has a massive impact. In the summer I regularly get up at 05:00 to start testing at 06:00 in a relatively cooler ambient.
I've always found my HR the best indicator of training/fitness. Good to know that my HR based threshold efforts are the best way to start before zeroing in on an actual FTP number. I like to do 2 x 20min @ 176bpm (my max HR is 191).... And let the power fall wherever. Then use those FTP numbers moving forward
Relying on a finicky metric as a training prescription is highly unadvisable.
@@neoneherefrom5836 What finicky metric, heart rate? Power meter doesn't give you any feedback about physiological or environmental factors; heart rate does. Best to train with both: power to track your progress, heart to regulate the effort.
@@carlmons I’ve had my heart rate high and feel fine and low yet feel like crap.
Heart rate isn’t even effective for calculating calories burn.
It’s fine to measure in post but as a driving principle metric, power and RPE is the way to go.
@@neoneherefrom5836 Its not about feelings, and it's not about calories; it's about performance. Car engines lose power when it's hot, so does your body, a well as other factors like altitude, sleep, what you had for breakfast, etc.. Rising heart rate without increased effort is a warning sign that you're either approaching heat stroke or exhaustion, and you won't feel it until it's too late. Your power meter would tell you to keep pushing. Heart rate is an indicator of the status of your body, more like a water temp and gas gauge in your car, a power meter is more like your car's speedo- it can't tell you if something's wrong.
If you train with heart rate long enough, you'll come to understand exactly how long you can sustain a given heart rate before bonking- a power meter can't do that without taking physiological and environmental variables into account, which is why I would not use a power meter without heart rate. For example, my FTP is at 155bpm, and my all day power is 153, whether I feel good or like crap- it's really that reliable. Is your power output that consistent?
The 2010's were all about power (probably driven by marketing), but the most current experts are back to focusing on heart rate. I train with both, race with heart rate only, except time trials.
@@carlmons wait… did you just say your FTP and all-day heart rates are virtually identical?
I have no idea how that is even possible.
Man, thank You so much for this. It makes a ton of sense. I realize I have made a lot of training mistakes, burning out quickly, not enjoying riding anymore
I can relate! Last year I pushed so hard that I overtrained and didn't want to ride. I will do whatever it takes to NEVER feel like that again!!
Dylan's training plans are awesome, I used them to finish Unbound 200 twice.
Similar concept to zone 2 with running. Cycling zones would be a bit lower as its not weight bearing but generally 80-89% of lt2 or 50-60min anaerobic threshold...which should also be ftp heartrate average.
I have a 199 true max heartrate at 42...so for running my zone2 is 145-160bpm. Pace is always affected by heat and humidity. Advantage to cycling on the flat is increased wind speed for air cooling on the skin...like a radiator for a car. Aiming for Mitochondrial density and oxidative enzymes & left ventricle peaks stimulus around 65-70% heartrate reseve. Cheers.
As always, you any Dr. Seiler are spot on. I wish there was a little reiteration of HR vs. LT1 and LT 2 for clarification of where drift occurs. I believe he touched on it in his last video, but I know he goes in depth on his channel.
So on point. Two days after this video, on July 4th, the Giro d'Italia Donne had a very hot day of 35C/95F. American rider and GC contender Kristen Faulkner blew up at the base of climb 3 of 4 because, as she mentioned on Strava, she was dehydrated and setting several personal highs for Heart Rate.
Just wanted to say how much I love your content. I'm not the best cyclist but I really like to dig into these types of technical details. Keep on the great work.
Very interesting Dylan. I periodically test my fitness by measuring my power output at the end of a 1 hr turbo ride whilst keeping my heart rate strictly below the max for Zone 2 (5 Zone model). A good result for me is 165 Watts with heart rate throughout the ride held at 145 bpm (vs max 186 bpm). During the hour I have to back off my power to keep my heart rate at the 145 bpm max. After an hour the final 5 minute average power number is the result I'm looking for (no sprinting at the end!). I then plot the results over weeks/ months to see trends. If I've been off the bike for 2 weeks or sick the loss in performance is very clear and measurable in lost Watts. It's easy to ride at Zone 2 for an hour so this test is much less painful than an FTP test.
Yes! Try this both ways if you have an erg. Ride in a power in z1 (3zone) or z2 (5zone) for 1 hour or 2 hour etc. Later repeat this ride with same power to see if HR drift is delayed and what HR was compared to previous.
While I see what you are doing, heart rate can be impacted by so many other variables, such as sleep, medication, time of day, diet, hydration status, stress, etc. etc. This seems especially true at lower ranges. Anecdotally, I took a few weeks off of running, and my HR was elevated about 30 BPM from before I stopped when I came back on a hot day! Though a run at the an easy pace felt the same, my heart rate was 175, vs the 145 it would have been at the same pace previously.
Point is, if your heart rate is lower at a given power, that is great! but if it is higher at a given power, I wouldn't get discouraged and assume that you have lost fitness.
@@loganjackson9559 Right, I am looking for longer trends, not one-off results. If you get more fit, your HR will trend lower for that same effort over multiple week/month view.
Dylan, thank you also for the weightlifting reference, great insight as a strength and power athlete (football) growing up, the stepping up weight then reducing the reps analogy is perfect. I always was thinking there’s something completely different about endurance training than strength but they have very strong correlations.
I’m glad to reconnect with your knowledge pipeline after a long break (literally broke my leg last year and back on the trail for 6 weeks so far this year). You continue to inspire on Strava and educate and entertain online!
Damn this video, the answer i have been waiting for for 2 years. Thanks a lot Dylan
Solid…Solid stuff Brotha! Thanks for continuing to put forth real, frank information for the little guy and everyone about!
More excellent content with Dr. Seiler. Thanks for bringing this to us, Dylan.
I can't express the satisfaction I had listening to Dr. Stephen! Thank you for this video Dylan!
Excellent series. 12:24 I noticed this on my last ride, trying for a lower heart rate I found myself thinking about life, exacting what I don't want to be doing, and the opposite reason I am on the bike in the first place, I had to really try and focus on pedaling technique, and trying to find new ways to get an even better pedal stroke, and bike control, I think there is even more to be gained while on the bike at low intensities because you can switch your training focus to things like:
riding with one leg,
air pedaling without being on the pedal with one leg while coasting (see how bad your pedal stroke really is!),
balancing on the pedals with little weight on hands out of the saddle,
coasting both left and right foot forward,
turning hard between objects on the road,
stretching and being comfortable having the bike move under you out of the saddle,
finding the rhythm of the bike while you pull the bars like a sprint without pedaling while out of the saddle (think BMX sprint, you will feel the sweet spot if you get it right),
using flat pedals,
etc.
This is spot on.
Excellent opportunity to fine tune other aspects of cycling.
Not sure Fausto Coppi would agree… ride your bike.
great editing, audio and video. Actually helpful graphics and some nice shots to break up the talking.
Here’s a big question I ask myself often: if my HR is drifting, should I back off the power and stay in zone or let the HR drift up? Intuitively, it seems like a good thing because it means my body is recruiting more fibers which makes more metabolic stress and thus is training in a nutshell. It also makes sense that you’re at a certain stroke volume at a certain HR and staying at that is beneficial instead of drifting?
I’m also curious why he rarely mentions intervals above 8 minutes. Surely a time-trialist does intervals longer than that? Maybe it changes for different parts of the season. I get my best aerobic adaptations when I’m extending time in zone from 30->45->75->100 minutes near threshold, but that’s not anywhere near 90% of VO2 max HR.
The best informed answer I can think of is, lower your power as needed for endurance / recovery rides (low power). For high intensity, I can imagine a scenario where you reach your max hr before the interval is over, in which case you need to back off anyway, but for other 'hard' trainings, I'd probably try to stick to my power zones, especially if you think the higher HR is due to exogenous factors such as heat or humidity...
In a webinar with a rowing coach from Princeton, he said to maintain power even as heart rate is drifting during steady state sessions. I've been following this advice for a while, but I'm not really sure how true it is anymore. Personally, I think there's a difference between heart rate drift (~5 bpm), which is your aerobic system dealing with the increased duration below the lactate threshold, and your heart rate increasing 10+ beats, which would indicate that you weren't in the proper training zone in the first place. I'd be interested to learn more.
Chapeau! > 100 mins at TH 👍💪💪
Excellent discussion. If you wanted to do a longer zone 2 ride, seems like it makes sense to lower the load each hour. Like in the example he gave for himself, start at 200 and maybe lower the watts 10 per hour. That might keep the stress relatively constant.
Keeping HR relatively constant does that for you. Seiler’s point, as expressed in numerous videos/podcasts: Z2 by HR, not power.
A good follow up video would be to delve into DFA Alpha 1 as a training tool for low intensity riding.
I got a power meter for my indoor machine. It showed something. If I rode with a good resistance and low cadence
isnt it a too low cadence? Just bought an indoor trainer, cant wait to start using it to complement outside rides
Possibly just noob gainz. The real art is managing/improving when your already fit.
Love the insights and science based approach. Keep up the awesome videos.
Awesome content that calms me 49years old dude down and confirms to me what I do isn't so wrong, regards from GER
Your heart never stop working. You will know when it does. If you want to target 300w effort. It will come down to if your heart can sustain this effort. Meaning pump the blood needed for this effort. Everything comes down to your heart.
The point at 10 minute mark is very important for me. I have 55bpm resting heart rate. Yet my heart rate went over 200bpm on some hard rides (some even went over 210bpm). This point means most of the heart rate guideline I've heard so far need to be recalibrated for my high range heart rate. I don't know how long I've been wrongly assumed my heart rate zones for endurance training til now. Thank you so much.
I have the same zones as you (-5BPM), and I'll tell you that my zones changed dramatically when I put in my resting HR!
An alternative wording to this title would be: Stress vs Load for ..... Stress is most often measured by heart rate and load by power level. Dr Seiler discusses how stress (heart rate) increases during a constant load workout, but aren't workout zones really intended to be stress zones? If our goal is to perform a long L1 stress training session, shouldn't we reduce load as we see our stress (heart rate) level increase? Maybe I missed it, but I did not hear this question directly addressed.
I have many friends around who bought powermeter and within few months they overtrained heavily. Z1 or Z2 zones are great info, but these zones do NOT work for unlimited time... You must watch your HR and total time. Everything must be done gradually. And Z1 zone does not mean your NP from whole ride is in Z1 range. Your whole ride must be in the right zone, all the time. Otherwise it is not easy Z1 ride :)
Obviously 😅
So Dr. Seiler is saying we should ride at 60% of HR reserve. Assume a RHR of 40 and a Max (cycling) HR of 200, the reserve should be 160.
60% of 160 this is 96.
So the rides should be done at 40 (RHR) + 96 (60% of reserve) = 136 HR?
That is correct
@@rickmorse3351 interesting, I had been riding at 75% of my max cycling HR, which is like a solid 10 beats higher.
In my case, that would be ((186-60)*60/100)+60, and I would get the same result (135.6.). Strange.
@@GoustiFruit Thats actually very interesting
All these formulas are just educated guesses. The only real thing you can do to find your LT1 is to use a lactate meter with a slow ramp test. Same for LT2. These correlate well with your own HR. Which you can then monitor while riding. The more training you do below LT1 improves your mitochondria, and you will get stronger and put out more power over time … at the same HR ….
Not a quick fix though 😎, takes time to grow and reprogramme the mitochondria. Ask Tadej Pogačar 😉
A lot my buddies think I’m crazy because I focus more on HR than any other metric. Focusing on the intensity my body is exerting is a much more productive measurement than the wattage IMO. I have a power meter but I could actually do without it. I generally only look at power numbers after the ride. External factors that effect heart rate only make the argument to focus on HR stronger.
Wow Dylan, that was such a great video, so insightful, big thank you to Dr Seiler. keep up the great work Bro!
Best video on training intensity that I have ever seen, good stuff! 👌🏻
Hi Dylan, how can I purchase a Jukebox cycling jersey? Thank you
Excellent video, thank you. I especially like the concerted effort into trying to answer key macro questions that are applicable to a great many athletes. Even to us 'over the hill' Masters!
Dr. Seiler has a killer chart/metric where he divides 6min power/%HRR and for long rides you can see where things started to fall apart. I created a graph for it on Training Peaks. Super helpful. Also made polarized by HR vs polarized by PWR charts which is really interesting to watch over the course of a season.
(For me, the more fit i get, the more those come into alignment where time spent below LT1 HR starts matching time spent below LT1 power zone. Before fitness my heart rate indicates above LT1 while my power indicates less than LT1.)
this is golden info!
I'm glad he mentioned the brain 'zeroing in' on other things when we ask effort from ourseleves. There are things going on in our mammal bodies that we are never aware of. Some things we are, like pain, heart rate and breathing.
i doesnt matter what power your putting out when your at your max heart rate, thats it, thats what you got, give or take a couple beats
When will we get a video discussing gear choices?
1x vs 2x?
How you decid on chain rings? ect...
Excellent interview.
As always, another quality video with useful information. Thanks heaps guys.
Two of the best videos yet. Really enjoyed the thought process. Has me thinking about how I train.
This was really a good video. I am a 65 year old rider who really has a hard time riding at low tempo. I need to get better at this, and this video I will watch more than once.
You and me brother! I'm 64, it just feels natural to up the tempo every time I get on the bike. Me and backwards hat Dylan, twin sons of a different mother!!
@@ronbell7920 One thing I did for myself this holiday season was to buy a Garmin 1030 Plus cycling computer (a Black Friday sale). It allows you to create bike workouts of your own, or use Garmin-provided training plans that include regular workouts.
But the BEST thing about it is that during a workout, a screen pops up that shows you whether you are cycling within (or without) the parameters of the workout. To activate this feature, you must have a power meter.
I have been using it for about a month now, and the workout screen really helps me keep an eye on whether I am mashing too hard or keeping within the right zone.
The device also tracks your weekly training stress score and lets you know if you are pushing the limits of your age-specific & fitness-specific cumulative training targets.
I realize not everyone trains with a power meter (I have a Stages on 1 bike, and a Wahoo Power Link on 2nd bike), nor wants to buy a fancy bike computer. But I have been training with power for almost 20 years, and the new Garmin was an investment in my own fitness planning.
Best of luck to you.......us old geezers gotta be careful not to chase the young guns too much!!! On the other hand, every now & then, it is fun to zoom past a fella half our age!!!
@@rickguerrero2282 , thanks for the reply. We have a lot in common! I have been using Garmin Vector 3 pedals (power meter) and Magnus Smart trainer (w/power). I have not been as focused when riding on the road, but during trainer sessions I pay more attention to the data. Good luck to you "old man"!!
Great point about not hammering every day, something that most amateurs probably don't do enough ...
My HR reserve is 141, so I calculate 141*.0.55=77bpm +39resting HR equals 116bpm 65% is 130bpm. I used to use 142bpm for Z2. It looks like I've been over doing it with steady rides
Really easy to do...that "gray zone" is so easy to go into.
This is pure gold!! thanks!
How does cadence play into this? If I ride 200 watts at 100 rpm my hr will be higher than riding 200 w at 80 rpm which would be higher than riding 200 w at 65 rpm. So, for me there is a lot of play between riding a specific power for a specific hr over time of which I can have the option of reducing cadence at given power or reduce power at a given cadence for a specific hr.
riding at higher cadences stresses your cardiorespiratory system more. that explains the higher hr at 100rpm compared to 80rpm
This video is so good! The whole series is great, but this was my favorite. Thanks for sharing!
Ive noticed this disparity with training times during the day as well. I tend to have a lot more room to push wattage in the morning if im measuring z2 from hr, but in the afternoon/evening z2 is more matched between wattage and hr
That was excellent. It's not an easy answer, so you need to be listening carefully and you have to apply these ideas to your goals and particular situation. Thanks for a great training lecture!
The only metric I pay attention to is heart rate. Why? it determines how well rested we are and really hard we are pushing it. It is called a red line for a good reason.
I believe you are right. We can "wish" for a higher wattage, but the engine, the heart, will determine what we can sustain.
I generally agree, as long as you have some method of monitoring progress. Power is great at that (more power / same power for more time).
Most people could happily substitute power for Strava segments or their own known local loop.
Great channel. Dylan, Dr. Seiler speaks of HR reserve and Max HR, I wonder if these two reference points should be both taken on the bike? (For karvonen formula), consider that taking rest hearth rate while laying down or being on the bike can give quite different results. We can notice a difference even while seating on a chair compared to
seating on the bike due to the different body position. While for the max heart rate test, I have found that it can reach different values according to the methods, eg. riding the bike with dedicated method or wiring on an elliptical trainer when using also the hands for moving the machine, generally Max HR is higher in the latter. Appreciated your comment here.
I heard him say roughly 60% of HRR which I don't think is correct. That would be way too low for low intensity, but 100% of HRR is about spot on for my Z2 rides at the low end.
Dylan when he talks about percentages of heart rate reserve hes essentially talking about the Karvonen formula right ? Thanks. Great channel !
You're right on target with this discussion! Thanks so much for these super informative interviews.
I'm not a racer. I just enjoy long, low intensity rides. I find myself doing very well on these, rides up to about 2.5 hours, then my heart rate starts gradually creeping up towards my LT. Up to around that ~2.5 hour point my aerobic decoupling is very good. But the longer I ride past that point the worse the overall aerobic decoupling for the ride becomes. If I stop before this point it looks like I had a great ride, but if I go for another couple of hours that changes completely. Did I over-do it, or is this good training?
If you do this every ride, it is over doing it. But having a long, low intensity ride every week is a fantastic part of training for this exact reason. Long and slow will increase your aerobic capacity over time.
Could be an issue with fueling
Is there any merit to adjusting power output to keep heart rate constant? Not being an endurance guy myself, I reduce power in the face of a rising heart rate response after 2 or so hours. I am not sure this has been the best strategy. Intuitively, in the face of heat stress or other stressors that compete for my physiology, I think reducing power makes sense. When the stress goes up internally the same power output can't be done externally with the same energy resources. In an ideal world I would be measuring my LT levels relative to LT1 and it would be quite interesting to see where I am at in the beginning vs where I am at in the end. Even with power adjusted to keep a constant heart rate, I wonder if the stress of going beyond my normal endurance capacity is too great and puts me well above LT1 at the end, thus accumulating a lot of stress to recover from. I also like autonomic component he touched on. I use HRV as a metric for internal load using a morning measurement. Even after a well controlled (heart rate wise) 3-4 hour endurance ride, the next day my heart rate variability tends to drop considerably. My weekly endurance rides for a while have been the same number of hours, so, the only stress I have been seeing that is new is the heat stress. I try my best to adjust the power to keep the heart rate the same. But, in the end I suspect that even with adjusting power to keep heart rate the same, external stress factors are just a bit too taxing. I don't really feel it in the moment, but, when I take that HRV measurement the next morning I realize "yup, that ride was a lot on me" when I see that rapid drop in HRV along with increases in resting heart rate.
Nice use of clips to spice up basically a Zoom call. Thanks Dylan
Excellent and informative. Keep up the interviews with differing authoritative voices, and don't hesitate to keep it geeky!
Great videos, Dylan. Thanks.
Good questions Dylan, it starts to expose the hype of the industry.
As someone who is also largely a runner, we primarily train zones based on heart rate because accurate power meters for running aren’t common. As highlighted by this video: Equal power does not mean equal effort (heart rate) > particularly as you get into longer durations.
Thanks Dylan! I would love a video on best resistances / weighted exercises for IN season, just like to go to the gym twice a week in season but find it often burns my muscles, thanks again!
Just one comment - Heart rate reserve is not immune to weather conditions. 60-65% of heart rate reserve as a low intensity session is quite challenging for high humidity high temperature conditions and therein, you start to disconnect between heart rate and external power or pace. There is a definite duration impact on the rate of this discconnect appearing (obviously starting out is less of a concern than the last 3/4 of the session)
Cardiac drift can also be down to dehydration especially if you're on a turbo trainer for 2+ hours. Also, if you ride in the morning there's a good chance you start the ride fasted then begin eating after 30 minutes, 60 minutes etc., the digestion of the food you consumed will raise your heart rate.
I like how to explains at as the relationship b/w internal workload vs external workload....
This was excellent. Thank you so much for putting it together and sharing!
Interesting topic. I'm still a little curious about how to use HR to monitor load when training on the MTB. For example, I can target a certain effort on climbs, but on some more physical descents my HR doesn't really recover (especially when really ripping and having fun). I feel like it's important for race success for me to work out the systems that help me get down faster, even if I'm not really putting watts through the pedals. How does this "effort" on the descents factor into the overall training load?
I think there's also adrenaline factor to be included in descents, I've noticed the same thing during my mtb rides.
There's a typo in the title, buddy. You do great work, Dylan.
N no
ridesantacruzbikes Passive/Aggressive much buddy?🤷🏼♂️
Or you can use a J. Friel ballpark way of determining your aerobic threshold by subtracting 30 beats per minute from your lactate threshold heart rate. To find a AT training zone do +/- 2bpm. So let say your LTHR is 180 bpm, then AT will be 150 bpm and AT training zone will be 148-152 bpm.
60% of my HR Reserve would be 136. The Friel method gives 146. Quite a big difference!
@@ASGundogs Well HR reserve is actually tricky to calculate as maxHR is very hard to measure, most have it low.
@@KuriReevel As is Threshold HR…
@@ASGundogs Every endurance athlete knows his treshold heartrate…
If I used max HR, my Z2 ( 5 models ) xxx - 153 bpm, but with LTHR it is 153 - 164, that's literally a whole level difference.
Great and insightful video. Thanks so much Dylan and Doc 👌
absolutely fantastic! Thanks!
This was great. Not sure if I enjoyed part 1 or 2 more. Hoping there’s a part 3 coming!
Would be nice it were possible to set one of these apps to fix output downstream of heart rate
Thank you for this. Great stuff
Fantastic content as always! Like hearing to seminars
Fantastic conversation
Excellent Info ! 👍
Hello, Dylan. Thank you for your great job! Can you make a video regarding riding outside or doing it with smart bikerack (Tacx or any).
very informative interview for a free TH-cam channel. thank you.
Thank you ☺️
I feel super dumb... Can someone explain real quick? If I have a resting HR of 60 and a max of 168, that makes my reserve 108. If I do 60% of my 108 RHR, than the HR I'm trying to maintain on an easy ride is 64, which I then add to my RHR? So the HR I should be trying to hit is 60+64=124 bpm?
That's how I understand it as well yes.
Or the maff method 180-age +/- 10 BPM depending on if trained /untrained
I have to say… I trust the research BUT I’m one of those guys who apparently just isn’t very athletic. So I have to ride at like
As somebody with a lowish resting (40) and highish reserve (197-40=157) doing 134bpm today felt very easy indeed. I was trying to do 145bpm before today. I struggle with the idea that if my resting was higher and so reserve lower, but max the same 197, this 60% would be higher than my 134
I'm similiar to you. 203-60= 143 puts me around 146. I've been trying to ride around 135 (which feels like active recovery), but with my higher resting heart rate maybe I should target 145.
@Shaylor: Am I mistaking or did Seiler say for low intensity rides to be in the 60% of your heart rate reserve? Meaning this would put you around 94 BPM for those kinda rides?
@@seahorserider33 he did, but what you’re missing is your HR reserve starts at your resting HR, not at 0. So you add the 60% number to your RHR
@@shaylorcyclingwahoo that makes complete sense 😅
Living in Thailand and cycling can make training to power problematic if it’s hot and humid. The question is, is training indoors with aircon and tan more effective for muscle performance increase or riding in the heat? When using the garmin outside it always says unproductive as I noticed my heart rate can be 160 ish for z2 power whereas indoors it’s 120ish. Does the garmin also use your training effectiveness based on heart rate which can vary. Does it matter if you do a training session where the heart rate is a tad higher because the garmin seems to think no and can be quite demoralizing to be constantly told your training is ineffective.
I agree, it can feel demoralising. When I realised that, I made a conscious decision to ignore it. I take a screen shot of that summary screen after every ride for a future video where I want to show how Garmin is utterly clueless.
Ignore it, IMO.
I finished a race and its summary was "Overreaching". It's automated and pretty much a curiosity and nothing more for me. These past 3 days it has said, "Productive" and suggests 3 days recovery after every ride as I do what I have on the plan 3 days in a row. Nonsensical.
Really like these series. thanks!!
As a newbie cyclist these videos are hugely informative.
Really enjoy the channel buddy. Keep up the awesome work
So, if I want to improve my endurance... let's say that I'd like to be able to ride for 3h at the HR that I am currently able to maintain for 2h at 200W: does it mean that I would need to increase the duration of my rides, but only keeping my HR at the same level, while lowering my power (190W, 180W, ..., 150W) during that extra time ? If so, doesn't it all go back to the increase of your volume ?
Polarization would then be 1- slowly increase your volume by only watching at your HR, then 2- hit the HIIT only by watching at your power and, once again, by slowly increasing the duration and the intensity of the intervals. But then, following Seiler's example with a TT athlete (with a 400W TP ! :-O) that would train with 3x8min, then 4x8, then 3x10, etc., intervals, doesn't it come back to... working at the threshold power, so in the Z2 !?
What's for sure is that I spent a lot of time during the last two Winters training on short HIIT: yeah I did some of my PR outdoors on very short segments (5min max intervals, kinda VO2max...), but I lost *a lot* on the endurance side ! Unable to finish 10min+ intervals at the power I was able to produce back then...
He didn’t really address how to handle cardiac drift on endurance rides. I’d say start at a lower intensity so you finish your 3 or 4 hour rides at the proper heart rate. Jump on the trainer in erg mode and start at 160 watts for an hour, 170 for an hour…if the cardiac drift gets too bad, the ride should probably count as one of your high intensity workouts for the week.
Brilliant. Thanks for doing this.
I thought what Stephen said made perfect sense though I could split my head open before getting TrainerRoad people to understand that science supersedes business model ( And believe me I’ve gone at it with Nate on topic to no end!) regardless!
My favorite parts of your back and forth is your brief synopsis after point that sums up for those who might have never heard the knowledge! 💕🚴🏼✌️
Great vids! What do you eat before, during and after 1.5-4 hour zone 2 rides?
Thanks for this video Dylan and great knowledge guest I find this and the sceience very interesting and would like to apply it. I have now since on my garmin made adjustments to be set to heart rate reserve % and I did also know my correct max and resting. However this has now brought my zone 2 every day base rides topend 16 higher than before and also matches what I had set my running zones to now.
Had I been training slightly under in general on the bike also I always tried and thought I should be training at lower hr for my cycling than running (non weight bearing, I may also may well be a better runner too however if not currently or for 3 months, now full cycling training instead ).🤷
What do u suggest keep the great channe many thanks Jon
I dont understand the HR reserve, what percentage to aim for ? 60% of HRR would be impossibly low... can someone pls explain?
Say you're out for a 4 hour ride at 200w. At hour 3, your body for some reason is spiking your heart rate. Normally you've been at 130bpm and been totally good. Now you're at 150bpm, same terrain. Maybe it's hot. Maybe you didn't sleep enough. You FEEL fine but the HR metric is indicating that you're stressing more. Should you back off and get that HR back down, or ride the rest off of feel?
If the training goal is 4 hours at z2/under LT, then you would back it off and get the heart rate down.