I do two short lactate threshold runs per week not per day 😂during the final 8 weeks of marathon training. It makes a huge difference. I can hold goal marathon pace longer and not as fatigued.
I honestly think this method is pretty dope if you build up the volume right and are a hyper responder to high volume sub-threshold training. My lactate threshold pace went from 6:40mi/4:10km down to 5:40mi/3:30km since starting in August.
So the crazy part of the ingebristen method is that they do 2 double thresholds each week and then a hard speed session on Saturday. It’s about getting in as much threshold work in as possible.
I think there is a significant skill level base where you can try this method and make it worth it. If you are doing 70+ mpw and your threshold is under ~5:10 this seems like a pretty effective method. Other than that I think it would be ineffective
I’d love to give doubles a go, but my schedule makes it impossible. I can get in a good 90 min session of a morning, but my afternoons and evenings are always busy.
Thanks for a good video. I dont do the double treshold intervals, but quite often have days when I bike at or above treshold twice a day. Happens when biking 45 minutes to work, and 40 minutes biking home. I dont always hit treshold on the homeride because I might feel like its better to go easy. These double days with some zone 1-2-3-4-5 has raised my lactatetreshold to a good level. A comment to the word "Fartlek". Fartslek is a Norwegian word containing "fart" and lek". "Fart" means "speed" and "lek" means "play". The original meaning of this term is playing and having fun at different speed. Compared to intervals its more playful and less systematic. My zonesystem is 1-easy, 2-talking easy, 3 tempo, 4 treshold,5- full power anaerobic up to max heart rate.
Nice introduction starting from the relationship to VOBLA to marathon time in the end. Other studies suggest that marathon performance is mainly determined by VO2Max, running economy and the fractional utilization of VO2Max at marathon speed. In my eyes a polarized approach might work better to improve VO2Max but maybe both running economy and the fractional utilization of VO2Max can be improved more readily with the Norwegian method. Maybe this also explains why some people seem to profit more from this method depending on their starting level.
Juuust started dabbling with double threshold, but I'm moving into the latter half of a trail marathon training block. I've been building up mileage carefully and have been doing a lot of easy double run days or a double run days with one workout and one easy run, in the first half of the block to prepare myself physically and mentally for trying double threshold, so my timing probably isn't optimal. This time round it was the best way to do it to make sure my body was ready for it haha. Excited to see how I feel in about four weeks time!
Very interesting Dr Will, I find it such a difficult task to train hard enough to improve, but not to overdo it, as I always then get upper respiratory tract infections. I have always suffered these since I started running 34 years ago, A doctor recently diagnosed me with C.O.P.D on a phone call ! (My surgery in the UK, it is almost impossible to see a doctor) Which just goes to prove that a non athlete doctor does not really have a clue about the effects of overtraining.
going to start introducing these to me tri training, split across run and bike. interesting note on threshold being both LT1 and LT2, definitely gonna keep that in mind (and likely alternate between them each week)
In your schedule you mention targeting zone 4 on your first Saturday run but from my understanding the Norwegian method uses 3 zones. Mind to explain which zoning models you are using on the schedule slide?
True, I didn't really consider that when I was writing this. When I say zone 4, I’m generalising to most 5-7 zone systems where zone 4 is typically around 100% LT.
I've tried every mathematical formula to guess LT pace or LTHR, based on max heart rate, heart rate reserve, watch measurements, time trials, 5k race times, McMillan, and I get wildly different numbers each time. If I follow my watch or some "zone" concoction, my threshold training would be slower than tar (tried it for 80% runs and makes me run slow), If I use McMillan it be way too fast. If I follow my preferred method, "perceived rate of exertion" then my data shows that I'm mostly in high zone 3-4. And according to experts, "oooh thats terrible, overtraining, blah blah." idk. I shaved off 5 minutes over 1 year for my 5K just going by feel. 29 minutes to 24 minutes with a stomach virus that day. If I'm tired, I'll take a day off. I would like to get lactate tested in a lab or with lactometer more out of curiosity, but for me race pace training or working zone 3 and 4 seems to work best.
That's a good anecdote. These things work on Bell curves, and for the majority, they'll work, but for those on the tails. You’ll need a bit more trial and error.
What's wrong with getting "supper stuffed" once in a while? It's been said that the best way to better your lactate threshold is by lactate depletion. Are you doing that on a different day? I think I did it a few days ago as I almost was totally *toasted* but I recovered and made it back to the car. I was in Zone 5 - 24% of an 8 mile trail run with lots of steep hills and hit my max HR for a minute going up a 500 foot hill in 1/3 mile. I did a recover hike in zone 2 to recover but it might take two more days to recover :o) It was my monthly "race" trying to set a PB but I was 2.5% heavier this time so I was 3% slower but I burned more calories and had a record high average HR this time so I'm calling it good. It's hard to pump out PB's at 69 years old. Ive never done a double threshold but I do long ones once every 7-10 days days that are 1.5 hrs of hills. I dont run track or streets but I might try it soon. I'm strictly trails for now.
You answered it yourself: it took two days to recover. Jacob is training twice a day, so that means four or five sessions missed. So it's not that you don't improve, it's just not optimal. That said, my personal thought (no data) is that it can be good psychologically if used very sparingly.
@@dalelinney8437 I did not say it took two days to recover, I said it MIGHT take two MORE days as I wrote it before I did the two more days but since it was 8 months ago I dont remember if it was two more days or if it was a 3 or 4 days. It also depends on what RECOVER means (to what degree).
@@hikerJohn so range = 2-4 days --> four to eight sessions missed! Or at least, sessions suboptimal. But as I said, not disagreeing with you. I think those "go to the well" sessions are good occasionally for mental training etc. I did a hilly 10k yesterday. 60% zone 4, 24% zone 5. I feel smashed today, but sometimes you gotta see where your limits are.
@@dalelinney8437 Very good, I did a hilly 15.5 mile yesterday. I felt smashed at the end but feel pretty good today. It was hard to walk from the truck to the house after driving home. I was at 10K foot elevation but live and usually train at sea level but I'm starting to do a mountain a week before winter comes. Strava gave me a "relative effort" of 483. That's about my 12th hardest relative effort on Strava for the last 2.5 years
It would be important to keep an eye on preventing injury. Conventional wisdom was no more than 1 threshold session per week -- but perhaps that's for older runners. Jakob Ingebrigtsen is 23 y.o. and has been building up to this routine over 10 years during his growing years. His body was growing while adapting.
At age 62 I need more rest days. Sometimes double rest days. To sill get the sessions in, I sometimes do 2 sessions per day. Not double threshold since I believe in polarized, but an interval in the morning and a weight session in the evening or a shorter zone 2 ride at the upper zone boundary.
Ballpark would be 100% of your threshold HR (LTHR) or 90% of your HRmax for the morning intervals, and 90% of your LTHR or 80% HRmax for the evening intervals. Hope that helps 🤙
@@drwilloconnor Most of the time us Norwegians do longer intervals with lower intensety and hr in the morning, and faster and shorter intervals in the evening, but the % you mention are right. It is just the other way around, very good video, as a norwegian one of the best ive seen on the subject
One thing i will add to be more specific is that the longer morning work often is around marathon pace/intensety typical lactate on theese are 2.0-2.5mmol. And in the evening it depends on your lactate turnpoint, but often right under to slightly over at the end. Typically 2.8-3.5mmol
Why does you voice seem to like have little cracks in it, like it's computer generated? 😂😂 I know it isn't, but it's got this weird computer like crack every couple seconds in it.
So naive! Lactate measuring 😂 It’s called the Norwegian “dope train”. Also, your training week has no structure or specificity applied. Finally, do you really believe the Norwegians would share their actual training methods while still competing?! Wouldn’t you sell your training methods post career? Training principles may apply but training is very individual. Other than that, everyone at the top dopes.
You are just foolish, the main principles of the model are the only thing you need to know to improve, and even the Ingebrigtsens share this knowlege on podcasts interviews etc. And retired athletes like Sindre Buraas and Marius Bakken gladly shares their knowlege about all of the models principles and plans. Marius Bakken is even the founder of the model as you see in this video. The father of the Ingebrigtsens Gjert, learned almost all that he knows from Marius Bakken, so its almost the same. But this is only what they do in the winter. The only thing they doesent share and that even us other norwegians dont know, is what they do in the season and what they do to prepare for raceday. The only thing i know is that they keep their double threshold atleast once a week, and that they try to fit it in as often as they can together with race specific work. They also try to keep a high volume throughout the season to keep the threshold speed high. After all the effect you get in results from rasing the speed at anaerobic threshold will always greatly surpass the mechanical benefits of training at race pace all the time.th-cam.com/video/Akg8e-G7rx4/w-d-xo.html
The spesificity lies in the speed on the shorter intervals and the saturday hill workout. If you manage to preserve competition speed at shorter intervals in the winter, still being at threshold because of the brakes, you can easily get in good race shape in the summer if you switch to a more race specific approach. This is done by the Norwegians because the mechanical benefits you get from race specific work does not make near the same impact that raising the threshold does. At the same time it does not take near as much sessions at race pace to get the mechanical benefits in contrast to raise the threshold,which often takes the whole winter.
I do two short lactate threshold runs per week not per day 😂during the final 8 weeks of marathon training. It makes a huge difference. I can hold goal marathon pace longer and not as fatigued.
I have started doing something like this ... one on wednesday and one on friday ... !!!
I honestly think this method is pretty dope if you build up the volume right and are a hyper responder to high volume sub-threshold training. My lactate threshold pace went from 6:40mi/4:10km down to 5:40mi/3:30km since starting in August.
I think so too. For some, it'll be way too much. Good work on your improvements. That's massive!
That's a sick improvement
Dope? Did someone say " dope"?
So the crazy part of the ingebristen method is that they do 2 double thresholds each week and then a hard speed session on Saturday. It’s about getting in as much threshold work in as possible.
This is a superb explainer. Thanks! To get all this info in only 12 mins is a real accomplishment. Thanks again 👍
Cheers. That's from years of seeing students zone out during lectures after about 20min 😂
I think there is a significant skill level base where you can try this method and make it worth it. If you are doing 70+ mpw and your threshold is under ~5:10 this seems like a pretty effective method. Other than that I think it would be ineffective
I’d love to give doubles a go, but my schedule makes it impossible. I can get in a good 90 min session of a morning, but my afternoons and evenings are always busy.
Thanks for a good video. I dont do the double treshold intervals, but quite often have days when I bike at or above treshold twice a day. Happens when biking 45 minutes to work, and 40 minutes biking home. I dont always hit treshold on the homeride because I might feel like its better to go easy. These double days with some zone 1-2-3-4-5 has raised my lactatetreshold to a good level.
A comment to the word "Fartlek". Fartslek is a Norwegian word containing "fart" and lek". "Fart" means "speed" and "lek" means "play". The original meaning of this term is playing and having fun at different speed. Compared to intervals its more playful and less systematic.
My zonesystem is 1-easy, 2-talking easy, 3 tempo, 4 treshold,5- full power anaerobic up to max heart rate.
Nice introduction starting from the relationship to VOBLA to marathon time in the end. Other studies suggest that marathon performance is mainly determined by VO2Max, running economy and the fractional utilization of VO2Max at marathon speed. In my eyes a polarized approach might work better to improve VO2Max but maybe both running economy and the fractional utilization of VO2Max can be improved more readily with the Norwegian method. Maybe this also explains why some people seem to profit more from this method depending on their starting level.
Juuust started dabbling with double threshold, but I'm moving into the latter half of a trail marathon training block. I've been building up mileage carefully and have been doing a lot of easy double run days or a double run days with one workout and one easy run, in the first half of the block to prepare myself physically and mentally for trying double threshold, so my timing probably isn't optimal. This time round it was the best way to do it to make sure my body was ready for it haha. Excited to see how I feel in about four weeks time!
Nice. That's an intelligent approach. Dip your toe in the water before you jump in!
Ahh this is reeeally strong!🧠🥳
Best sport scientific simplification without „failsification“ (besides Stephen Seiler) I‘ve ever heard and seen💪🏼😎👍🏼
Thanks! Yes, Seiler is very good. Paul Laursen from HIIT Science is also very good.
Very interesting Dr Will, I find it such a difficult task to train hard enough to improve, but not to overdo it, as I always then get upper respiratory tract infections. I have always suffered these since I started running 34 years ago, A doctor recently diagnosed me with C.O.P.D on a phone call ! (My surgery in the UK, it is almost impossible to see a doctor) Which just goes to prove that a non athlete doctor does not really have a clue about the effects of overtraining.
going to start introducing these to me tri training, split across run and bike. interesting note on threshold being both LT1 and LT2, definitely gonna keep that in mind (and likely alternate between them each week)
Cheers. You'd probably be alright to hit both bike and run @ LT2 if you're in good shape.
Thank you for sharing. Super interesting take aways
In your schedule you mention targeting zone 4 on your first Saturday run but from my understanding the Norwegian method uses 3 zones. Mind to explain which zoning models you are using on the schedule slide?
True, I didn't really consider that when I was writing this. When I say zone 4, I’m generalising to most 5-7 zone systems where zone 4 is typically around 100% LT.
I've tried every mathematical formula to guess LT pace or LTHR, based on max heart rate, heart rate reserve, watch measurements, time trials, 5k race times, McMillan, and I get wildly different numbers each time. If I follow my watch or some "zone" concoction, my threshold training would be slower than tar (tried it for 80% runs and makes me run slow), If I use McMillan it be way too fast.
If I follow my preferred method, "perceived rate of exertion" then my data shows that I'm mostly in high zone 3-4. And according to experts, "oooh thats terrible, overtraining, blah blah." idk. I shaved off 5 minutes over 1 year for my 5K just going by feel. 29 minutes to 24 minutes with a stomach virus that day. If I'm tired, I'll take a day off. I would like to get lactate tested in a lab or with lactometer more out of curiosity, but for me race pace training or working zone 3 and 4 seems to work best.
That's a good anecdote. These things work on Bell curves, and for the majority, they'll work, but for those on the tails. You’ll need a bit more trial and error.
What's wrong with getting "supper stuffed" once in a while? It's been said that the best way to better your lactate threshold is by lactate depletion. Are you doing that on a different day? I think I did it a few days ago as I almost was totally *toasted* but I recovered and made it back to the car. I was in Zone 5 - 24% of an 8 mile trail run with lots of steep hills and hit my max HR for a minute going up a 500 foot hill in 1/3 mile. I did a recover hike in zone 2 to recover but it might take two more days to recover :o)
It was my monthly "race" trying to set a PB but I was 2.5% heavier this time so I was 3% slower but I burned more calories and had a record high average HR this time so I'm calling it good. It's hard to pump out PB's at 69 years old.
Ive never done a double threshold but I do long ones once every 7-10 days days that are 1.5 hrs of hills. I dont run track or streets but I might try it soon. I'm strictly trails for now.
You answered it yourself: it took two days to recover. Jacob is training twice a day, so that means four or five sessions missed.
So it's not that you don't improve, it's just not optimal.
That said, my personal thought (no data) is that it can be good psychologically if used very sparingly.
@@dalelinney8437 I did not say it took two days to recover, I said it MIGHT take two MORE days as I wrote it before I did the two more days but since it was 8 months ago I dont remember if it was two more days or if it was a 3 or 4 days. It also depends on what RECOVER means (to what degree).
@@hikerJohn so range = 2-4 days --> four to eight sessions missed!
Or at least, sessions suboptimal.
But as I said, not disagreeing with you. I think those "go to the well" sessions are good occasionally for mental training etc. I did a hilly 10k yesterday. 60% zone 4, 24% zone 5. I feel smashed today, but sometimes you gotta see where your limits are.
@@dalelinney8437 Very good, I did a hilly 15.5 mile yesterday. I felt smashed at the end but feel pretty good today. It was hard to walk from the truck to the house after driving home. I was at 10K foot elevation but live and usually train at sea level but I'm starting to do a mountain a week before winter comes. Strava gave me a "relative effort" of 483. That's about my 12th hardest relative effort on Strava for the last 2.5 years
@@hikerJohn v impressive! Keep up the grind.
mmm more background, what was the time between the two 10ks and the weekly mileage diference?
What was your half marathon PB before this? Would have been nice to include some pre-intervention results!
I’d have to look back. I think it was about 1:13:40 something.
Is running fast useful outside sport?
It would be important to keep an eye on preventing injury. Conventional wisdom was no more than 1 threshold session per week -- but perhaps that's for older runners. Jakob Ingebrigtsen is 23 y.o. and has been building up to this routine over 10 years during his growing years. His body was growing while adapting.
Dr will. My pb for 5k is 19:40 what is the best training routine to be able to complete 5k with in 17 minute with in 4 month.
did ya do it?
@@ЭнрикеЧуринhaha.
You come here after watching Jacob break the record?
I wouldn't click away if you presented your double threshold data😅 maybe have an unplugged channel?
lol my thought exactly.
Very interesting idea man!
At age 62 I need more rest days. Sometimes double rest days. To sill get the sessions in, I sometimes do 2 sessions per day. Not double threshold since I believe in polarized, but an interval in the morning and a weight session in the evening or a shorter zone 2 ride at the upper zone boundary.
Great video! What software was used for text and graphics?
Thanks. Graphics where PNGs pulled from Canva and then effects added in Premiere Pro.
For us peasants with only HR, where would the "threshold" be situated for these double days?
Ballpark would be 100% of your threshold HR (LTHR) or 90% of your HRmax for the morning intervals, and 90% of your LTHR or 80% HRmax for the evening intervals. Hope that helps 🤙
@@drwilloconnor thanks!
I've heard the Norwegians do 82-92% of their max heart rate with less than 86% for slower sessions, and above for faster.
@@drwilloconnor Most of the time us Norwegians do longer intervals with lower intensety and hr in the morning, and faster and shorter intervals in the evening, but the % you mention are right. It is just the other way around, very good video, as a norwegian one of the best ive seen on the subject
One thing i will add to be more specific is that the longer morning work often is around marathon pace/intensety typical lactate on theese are 2.0-2.5mmol. And in the evening it depends on your lactate turnpoint, but often right under to slightly over at the end. Typically 2.8-3.5mmol
What is your 400 time?
It's more of Jakobs training people don't know than the part they know, it's too many rumors.
Why does you voice seem to like have little cracks in it, like it's computer generated? 😂😂 I know it isn't, but it's got this weird computer like crack every couple seconds in it.
33 is yak pace
Did you get your dad to give you a biff if he thought you weren't training hard enough?
😂
So naive! Lactate measuring 😂 It’s called the Norwegian “dope train”. Also, your training week has no structure or specificity applied. Finally, do you really believe the Norwegians would share their actual training methods while still competing?! Wouldn’t you sell your training methods post career? Training principles may apply but training is very individual. Other than that, everyone at the top dopes.
You are just foolish, the main principles of the model are the only thing you need to know to improve, and even the Ingebrigtsens share this knowlege on podcasts interviews etc. And retired athletes like Sindre Buraas and Marius Bakken gladly shares their knowlege about all of the models principles and plans. Marius Bakken is even the founder of the model as you see in this video. The father of the Ingebrigtsens Gjert, learned almost all that he knows from Marius Bakken, so its almost the same. But this is only what they do in the winter. The only thing they doesent share and that even us other norwegians dont know, is what they do in the season and what they do to prepare for raceday. The only thing i know is that they keep their double threshold atleast once a week, and that they try to fit it in as often as they can together with race specific work. They also try to keep a high volume throughout the season to keep the threshold speed high.
After all the effect you get in results from rasing the speed at anaerobic threshold will always greatly surpass the mechanical benefits of training at race pace all the time.th-cam.com/video/Akg8e-G7rx4/w-d-xo.html
Not to mention double threshold days are overtraining for beginners and intermediates
The spesificity lies in the speed on the shorter intervals and the saturday hill workout. If you manage to preserve competition speed at shorter intervals in the winter, still being at threshold because of the brakes, you can easily get in good race shape in the summer if you switch to a more race specific approach. This is done by the Norwegians because the mechanical benefits you get from race specific work does not make near the same impact that raising the threshold does. At the same time it does not take near as much sessions at race pace to get the mechanical benefits in contrast to raise the threshold,which often takes the whole winter.
🤡
Talking rubbish🤣😉🤣
That tittle makes it look like you're saying Jakob runs a 5k in 27:54🤭🫢