the comments are so demanding! we should request they take us out for a nite on the town. Russian mechanic life. A meal in a restaurant. I dig russians and just want a window into these working guys lives. I can see that they do have fun at work. we need some of this stuff in our poor country.
This is what makes Garage 54 so great. Not just posing an interesting "what if", but actually machining the parts and testing it out. Thumbs up guys; amazing how well this worked out!
Aluminum will anodize itself in a way, Aluminum is actually such a reactive metal that it forms a hard skin of oxides over itself in very short order, sealing itself off from further reaction/ Add some heat, such as in an engine, I would expect it to be quicker
I would never have suspected even Duralumin valves would last more than a few revolutions due to spring pressures, keeper stripping, etc. Thanks for showing me otherwise.
@@shivadow ya, but they had a lot of galling near the base of the valve. Duraluminum valves would work well at lower seat pressures in engines that don’t have endurance requirements, like drag cars. And Indy car, roadrancing or Nascar I don’t think they would live long enough.
@@kennethcohagen3539depends what titanium, most motorcycle engines with titanium valves need adjustment very often due to stretching but obviously not as badly as aluminum would stretch.
Being aluminum doesn't automatically mean they will melt, the cylinder head is also aluminum, it's the thermal conductivity what keeps them cool, aluminum being excellent at that. The valve stem and seat face can be reinforced with superficial treatments like anodizing and the tip can have a harder metal insert to make them last... a race and a half?
Aluminum has a low melting point, but also absorbs heat quick. Only the face of the valve is exposed to the very high temp. The rest of the valve is sucking the heat from it and putting it into the oil and head.
I would have expected that for the intake valves, but not for the exhaust. If there was going to be a problem, I would have expected severe erosion of the exhaust valve faces and seating surfaces.
@vincentrobinette1507 ohh it will definitely eat those valves apart quickly. They can't last very long. It's actually very suprising they lasted as long as they dod
Sorry you are wrong. For race applications we specifically reseat the valves with a different seat angle specifically for this reason. Most of the cooling of the valves are due to a direct contact with the seat, which is cooled by water. A: the stem is cooled by oil which has less energy transfer. B: the stem is so far from the mouth of the valve that conduction from the valve during a single stroke isn't enough to make that heat travel all the way up before the head cools it down. While the seat gets conduction for 3 strokes. C: there is no oil before the stem seals, so the stem runs dry all the way up to the springs. I'm sorry, but this is well researched.@@hydrostaticshocker3048 You can plot valve temperatures with engine rotation, and you will see a set temp for most of the crank rotation, and then a spike when EITHER valve lifts of the seat, it's like active cooling is removed and the part raises in temperature for that entire stroke. Almost like the valve is being actively cooled by the head constantly, and as soon as it lifts from the head, that cooling isn't present anymore...This has been done on research platforms since the 80s.
Everyone seems to think they would melt yet we have heads and pistons made from aluminium already. Its not about the peak temperature in the cylinder - its about how much is transferred to the parts and then how much of that is retained. A bigger problem for aluminium valves is the wear characteristics. Even in this short run they showed noticable wear and in a normal use case they would need swapping far too often. Thats why rings are still not made from alloys. However in a short term use case like drag racing or similar alloy valves make sense.
Heads and pistons don't have any part of themselves stuck out in a surrounding hot gas flow like an exhaust valve (the head) does. Amazed how long they lasted and that they were still viable for more after the visual check. I think some steady state running at some RPM above idle would of killed the valves.
@@xenuno How hot the exhaust valves get depends a lot on timing and mixture. This is a very old carb engine with a low compression ratio, low octane fuel and timing done by hand. Generally the less efficient it is the less heat is created. All that it needs to stay safe is for the heat to dissipate fast enough to keep the materials under their weakening point. Alloy is great at transferring heat and if the engine isn't making all that much in the first place its not a stretch to think they would last quite well. At best that engine is only doing around 60hp which is only about 150,000 btu/hr. Thats only 38,000 btu/hr per cylinder or around 640btu/min or only 10.7 btu/second. A decent kettle makes around 2btu/second so we're only asking them to deal with five times that. I agree that for high compression engines - especially older turbo ones which usually run very low timing numbers then the exhaust valves take a hammering - which is why a lot are made from inconel or are sodium filled. This thing is making 15hp/cylinder at very most and dissipating that really isn't a big ask even for relatively low melting point metals.
This is quite an interesting result you are having, I did not expect them to last more than 5 minutes. Yet, the extensive stress you put on those valve stems are all handled well by the aluminum and within specs of constant pressures at all pistons. Nice video and thanx for making such videos... they are always interesting and fun to watch :D much love from malaysia
They will fail...Aluminium always will, even when lightly stressed, unlike steel they will fatigue. Its the big problem with aluminium and why airframes have limited life - They gonna fail no matter what. Like you I thought about five minutes too! Why this channel is amazing. They should have tested to destruction - It wouldn't have taken long. (Says me...?)
It's common enough to run aluminium alloy engine parts, mainly rods, pistons and valves. They do last a fair amount of time, though with exception of pistons they're not anywhere near as long as steel parts. Rods and valves elongate over time and the engine loses performance since longer rods = smaller volume and longer valves = reduced compression.
@@martinda7446 True, metallurgy proves that aluminum corrodes faster, gets fatigued easily and just won't work for everyday application. If only he'd push it harder like the other stuff he stress tested on... you can see that he is somewhat holding back on these valves as a total engine repair is costly and all that. However, it is interesting how long they lasted in the video. PS I thought that the valve stem would elongate and bust the engine on my initial presumption LOL
@@michaelbuckers That was what I thought what the valve would do in the first 5 minutes, I really thought that either it elongates and break off in the cylinder or it would just kinda oobleck itself once it gets hot enough. I do however love the fact that this man will do interesting stuff for the sake of science and fans :D
My thoughts exactly. But these guys did the experiment and when the apocalypse comes and we have to make do with what we have, it is good to know we can make valves out of aluminium which will at least get you away from the 1st phase of zombies. I thought it might have lasted a minute or two, but hey, now I know it will last a while thanks to Garage 54.
@@MrMaxeemumshouldn't have to wait too much longer for the apocalypse 😃 But apocalypse also means unveiling, which is exactly what we've been seeing since 2020 🙃
Yeah, but they are using an old engine design that doesn't really make enough power to push the limits of the components. Those Ladas were built to handle anything and keep going, not make a ton of power. I'd be curious to see it tried on an engine that makes more horsepower per cubic inch and thus has higher exhaust temps.
These guys are awesome, the level of skill, knowledge, and equipment necessary to fabricate all this stuff, you just don’t see it anywhere else. It’s so unique, and fascinating.
Even before I finished reading the title I thought.. FORGET IT!! Aluminium will always fail. Not, likely to fail or may fail, but always fail. Toughest alloy you got included.. Aluminium has great properties, heat transfer is many times better than steel, weight of course, but strength and toughness will always lag behind. The killer though is that steel will not fail until it is stressed beyond its elastic limit, if you stress it it will be as good as new if you keep it within that linear part of the stress/strain curve. Not so with aluminium, it will always fail, at some point even if stressed lightly. Valves need to be TOUGH. These never will be tough enough. Would be interesting to see how long they do last in use. It is though why this channel is so brilliant, they test stuff! This was a magnificent test. You just wish they would go the whole way and do it scientifically. Measure the valves carefully run at extended RPM for some length, etc You need to run to destruction for a proper test.
Agreed. They havent got to a hill at 5000+ rpms to really stress them. I guess in a hurry one could use them with risk of breaking the engine, but briving slowly could provide a way to get out of a troublesome situation in a hypotetical case
Dural has about three times the heat expansion of the normal used Austenite steel. Therefore you have to start with three times of valve play. Otherways if it gets hot, may be it closes not perfect. As they cool down really fast due their good heat condutivity, the compression is good again. Watch inlet from cyl one. It is much darker than the other inlet valves. An other issue could be stretching the shafts by the springs as on regular valves with stronger springs over the years. Your experiments are great. Something between playing around, thinking outside the box and rocket science...👍
I've always wanted to convert Weber carburetors to a blow through configuration, fabricate an intake manifold matching however many cylinders the engine has, weld t3 turbo flanges on each runner and bolt very small turbos to each individual flange. You would have to have a sort of pre atomization expansion chamber for each cylinder. Which helps the exhaust turbine maintain it's energy through the intake and compression strokes. This is only necessary when adding a turbo to a single cylinder engine as anything from 2 to 12 cylinders have their counterparts in the exhaust or power stroke effectively maintaining the turbines velocity. Ive also wanted to try to mount say 4 slide style motorcycle carburetors to like a K24a1 and try 4 turbos that way.
@8:42 you can see sparks between a gap between the firewall and wire harness. @8:48 you can see another one by Vlads index finger. @8:51 by the bottom of exhaust manifold @8:52 you can see sparks further down by the wire harness. Blink and you'll miss it. I wonder if that had to do anything with the misfire
Now THIS was a surprise . Ford's V8 valves , especially on the Cleveland V8's, have a habit to drop the (friction welded on ) head at random . Have you ever encountered hollow sodium filled valves ? Amazing stuff...
There is few good explanations..... Aluminum has very good thermal conductivity, so it dissipates heat quickly to valve seat, engine that runs quite rich and has overlap in valves flushes cylinder with fresh cold mixture... this mixture cools down exhaust valves and takes heat out from it.
@BmiRussian - thank you for always doing an amazing job translating for us. Love this channel and would be hard to understand it with out you. Thank you again 😀
I tried to confirm this online but didnt find anything; My car mechanics teacher said that Porsche had a hand in designing the lada ohc engine, they were and still are a consulting company after all. And also, the lada ohc engine is very similar to old vw ohc engines, g60 engine code, irc
If you made a 2 piece valve aluminium setup it would work better because then you could run coolant through it. By having the outside of it slide into the bottom with a good height depth then it would act as a pump. The flat bottom part of your poppet valve works as normal, it just needs an overhang area to allow for an o-ring or similar to have a hollow outer valve cover to go over it and seal to the valve underneath. Or a similar method, it depends on what is easiest for you. its pretty easy to cast and then machine this pretty quickly which is why I suggested it. The inner valve gets pushed first then the outer valve joins in after, this allows for the pumping action to occur since it squeezes any fluid down into the bottom flat part of the poppet area. The outer valve stem inner diameter area is going to have a bunch of straight triangle parts that lead to the inner non-hollow stem's outer diameter. The inner non-hollow stem outer diameter just needs grooves cut into it so those inner diameter long triangles fit into the inner stem outer diameter grooves that have been cut. Make sure to use a tolerance to allow for expansion to occur and everything to run without causing too much friction. A lubricating fluid would be best to use. The outer stem near the flat part needs to have a secondary small thin strip of some spring steel to help everything stay together but also allow for the return of the outer stem of the poppet valve. Plus it helps separate the fluid and gas when you put some holes or slots in it. It makes sure the liquid stays where the heat is, the inner poppet valve, and then get pumped to the outer part of the stem after a phase change. Hope it helps out the design :)
I believe they'll take the heat as well as the rest of the cylinder head. At higher rpm I'd expect the head of the valve to brake off. Next, under extended use, the keepers would wear into their groves, and become sloppy, and unseat freeing the retainers and spring ...(sorry) then drop the valve.
@@michaelbuckers if they become soft enough to elongate from weakness due to heat, why wouldn't they break and drop their head as I previously stated ? You still have a valve spring pulling against them. As well, all seen rockers pound out keepers. Once thev loosen, they deform their groves, fall out, valve drops.
@@SeymourBalz You will only have spring pressure until the set clearance between cam lobe and bucket (DOHC), tappet and cam lobe (pushrod), and fork and cam lobe (SOHC) disappears due to any combination of stretch, expansion, and valve side seat wear & erosion. Mike is right ..
I suppose give or take temperature is the factor here, +/- Aluminum melts runs like water at 400c . With a naturally aspirated engine it can maybe race for like said for a lap but with a turbo, they will melt down fast. Also I like the fact how the valves take the seating point so well, taking shape and sealing the combustion area. There are many other soft metals to try that have melt point above 1000C . Try them.
this was Duralumin which is more durable than normal alminum and has a higher melting point thanks to the copper mixture. it can also harden over several days if heat treated.
some early engines like pacific vapor used piston vacuum to open intake valve. as an experiment you could take the intake lobes off an overhead camshaft, or remove the intake pushrods, and replace the stiff spring with a weak, and see will it run on exhaust only camshaft.
That was pretty amazing. I really didn't think that the aluminum valves would hold up for more than a few minutes, but they did ! and the engine ran and drove very well considering that the valves were made from soft aluminum instead of steel...
While I'm not surprised they worked, I think long term wear and erosion are going to be a problem. Also, clearances will probably have to be greater as thermal expansion will be greater and I believe this will cause excessive wear during cold operation. Still, a very worthwhile experiment!
Excellent work with the valves this is a testament to the quality off the machining work your guys do. when you need a part just make it. as always your content in these videos is second to no one kudos guys.
Lighter spring & valve motor setups helps reduce 'Valve Float' at higher rev ranges allowing higher Redlines'. You should have tried comparing the rev redlines... Motor with standard valves with 2 springs v motor with lightened valves with 1 spring.... 😏 The electronic 'Freevalve' tech eliminates 'Floating valve' as they are controlled in a completely different manor so can be 'Infinately tuned' (like a 'Infinate variability 'VTEC') for max power to max fuel efficiency... It's brilliant the way the designers & engineers overcome many problems with the age old tech of valves in motors... There's even one guy who made his own 'Freevalve' tech and put it on his MX-5 motor! 😎🇬🇧
I was somewhat surprised by the compression test results considering aluminum's relatively low creep temperature of ~330°C. It would be interesting to see an extended test of the engine to see how long the valves would last, and where they would fail first: stem or seat?
Awesome Video Vlad and Team! I wouldn't have expected that they would work. It would have been interesting to have measured the valve stems to see if they had stretched or not though. Please keep the amazing content coming! I really enjoy your videos!
17:05 for proper compression check, one must use a ambient pressure sensor. Then do the math. How much pressure did you make in cylinder divided by ambient pressure. Thats is compression ratio. Compare to factory rating. The C/R can stay the same and throughout the day ambient pressure changes, and dramatically on weather changes. "boost weather" is real.
so with aluminum i was a bit surprised that it lasted that long not because of the heat as pistons and all are also aluminum so the valves would cool on the head as they conduct heat extremely well and there's the air fuel mixture. however the fact that the valves didn't break or deform is surprising as aluminum is a rather soft metal and so you'd think they would just stretch or mushroom out at the seats, because this went soo well i might try this on a engine running 14.5:1 compression and see what happens
If these valves can hold up to the heat, you can reduce valve spring strength for the reduction in valve mass. Also this can reduce valve stem stretch! from Nils 😊 Ooops - I spoke too soon! Also check valve length before and after. I salute you!!
One of the jobs of the valve seat is to absorb excess heat from the valve. Given that aluminium has very good thermal condictivity and decent thermal capacity, they'll survive better than their melting point would suggest. Also given that they showed deformation under the strain of the valve train components they'll probably end up getting very good valve to seat contact which further increases their ability to dissipate heat.
Now i think this could definitely help the exhaust valves from getting too hot but the way aluminum fatigues this might be good for a race engine but longevity is going prove to be lackluster. Unlike steel aluminum never stops deforming and once it starts to fatigue it becomes even weaker than the last time until the point of failure. Given the springs are always trying to pull the valve stem while the head keeps the valve from moving at the seat. A lot of tension and only gets stronger when the valve is pushed open.
I‘d say running just 1 spring still was too strong for closing such a light valve. That’s most likely why you heard the slapping of the seat and why the seal grooved it so much in a short time. Properly tuned springs for the lightweight valves would allow them to be ran much longer than a race I’d say.
I am amazed at how durable the Lada engines are. They are made cheaply but since the design is so simple they can handle a lot of abuse. The rest of a Lada, not so good, but the engine is remarkably solid.
Since Aluminum and iron expand at different rates, you could try an aluminum head as well as the valves to match their expansion rate, then they should continue to seal and keep from missing.
not a materials engineer here but you should check the aluminum from HDDs, its high silicon aluminum , it has less thermal expansion and better machinability. No idea about tenacity or fatigue resistance but its way better than regular aluminum.
I suppose it all comes down to the EGT's. If they are not over 660 oC for more than a few seconds, should be fine. If they go over for any length of time...... Good night. Intake should be OK because it is being cooled and the exhaust is really being blow torched.
thermal expansion of aluminum and steel differ greatly . aluminum about twice as much as steel at the same temp . Just a thought . Could affect seat contact area and valve guide clearances
7000 series aluminum ie... "7075 aluminum " would be a better fit than duralumin. Duralumin is quite a bit stronger than a non alloy of aluminum. However stronger, duralumin is extremely soft, malleable, and alot more prone to corrosion. It was an interesting experiment. Thanks for all the crazy concoctions to entertain all of us.😉
Sparked and compression heard the valve, then the intake charge cools them. Just saying it's not 100 percent heat, all the time. Very cool test. ......everything you test is cool. 👍
The aluminum expands more outside of the guide the exhuast valve need to be necked there. Great video thankyou for doing everything noone would bother to do! This is curiosity science!
22:04 exactly what i thought too. Would be interessting to see a unconventional tuned engine (light valves, light flywheel...) compares to a stock one.
I bet the valve stems are stretching under the valve spring tension. Those being aluminum and light AF they do not need nearly the amount of spring pressure as the heavier steel or titanium valves. Although the titanium won't be as heavy as the steel.
Valves are cooled by the head (with cooling liquid), also the temperature in the cylinder is at its highest only for some part of the cycle, guess that is why the aluminum part doesn't melt.
There might be a use of aluninium valves at very high rpm if the aluminium valves get a special coating at the contact points and an adequate va valve drive that iguals out the thermal extension
...Curious about the gap/clearence you use between valves guides and valves !? I think that after a certain time, these valves would inevitably break. Aluminum does not have the same fatigue as steel In any case, good work, very interesting!
Hey what happened to the lada jz engine the one you guy cut in half and weld it to the full lada engine what become to that engine love to see it breaking it limit with a turbo build
Here's an idea: Try making a rotary valve head like the Saunders Rotary Valve system. You seem technically competent enough to handle machining it. It's actually a simpler system.
Modern automobiles have aluminum heads and aluminum blocks, pistons, and valves pretty interesting. Maybe the Futures is a completely all-aluminum engine, including the crank shaft?
Cut the valve seats wider, increase the exhaust valve stem clearance, remove the exhaust valve stem seals and see if you can use a even lighter valve spring.
I would have liked to see what rpm you got valve float at with the stock valves vs how fast you could make power with the aluminum ones. I can certainly imagine racing parts lije that. Maybe with deposition of a hard material on the wear surfaces.
Classic garage 54 experiment 👍 I was going to mention how about pneumatic valves ( still using the camshaft but closing them pneumatically like F1 cars which is a fairly simple mod ) or how about rotary valve ? there are a few quite good ones but are quite critical on tolerances and combustion sealing . Slide throttle maybe ?like a DFV again fault simple or a barrel throttle? Always interesting content , nice one guys 🇬🇧😇😎
Well sounds like a useful idea brand I'd like to see a back to back comparison on an engine dyno but you probably need lighter springs to see much of a difference
The valves not melting doesn't surprise me as the head is also ally. I think the main reason we run hard valves is due to mechanical wear on the stem and head.
what about lifter clearence, I´m sure, they stretched. And the exhaust groove could be tortion between open and seated. A little tortion in alum at 500c is quite softer.
The less weight is good for racing but the much larger tulip shaped head I bet reduces flow. But this really was not the point of this experiment, and a great experiment it was!
They must make an enginge where all successfull experiments end up in
That would be cool. It should be a 6 in line😅
the comments are so demanding! we should request they take us out for a nite on the town. Russian mechanic life. A meal in a restaurant. I dig russians and just want a window into these working guys lives. I can see that they do have fun at work. we need some of this stuff in our poor country.
I agree
A whole lotta Lada
I6 lada from 2 4cyl with aluminum positions and valves with a clear sump and clear radiator 😂
This is what makes Garage 54 so great. Not just posing an interesting "what if", but actually machining the parts and testing it out. Thumbs up guys; amazing how well this worked out!
Duralumin is a very durable alloy which includes copper with the aluminum, that is why it did not overheat the valves.
This.. no one else has mentioned it
@@delpsdayoff3372 I think it's the accent. A lot of people probably think Duralumin is just "Aluminium" with a Russian accent.
5:11 you have to respect the BMI Russian translator, he even speaks up like he’s talking over the engine noise
It's love to see this attempted again, after "hard-coat" anodizing the valves..
I suspect that the carbon being pounded into the seat contact area of the aluminum valve may harden it there where it counts the most..
Aluminum will anodize itself in a way,
Aluminum is actually such a reactive metal that it forms a hard skin of oxides over itself in very short order, sealing itself off from further reaction/ Add some heat, such as in an engine, I would expect it to be quicker
I would never have suspected even Duralumin valves would last more than a few revolutions due to spring pressures, keeper stripping, etc. Thanks for showing me otherwise.
I don’t think they would last near as long as steel valves. They’re going to distort. Titanium valves would be a different story!
@@kennethcohagen3539aluminum just might distort itself right into shape though.
@@shivadow ya, but they had a lot of galling near the base of the valve. Duraluminum valves would work well at lower seat pressures in engines that don’t have endurance requirements, like drag cars. And Indy car, roadrancing or Nascar I don’t think they would live long enough.
@@kennethcohagen3539depends what titanium, most motorcycle engines with titanium valves need adjustment very often due to stretching but obviously not as badly as aluminum would stretch.
I expected them to get a lot of peening as well.
Being aluminum doesn't automatically mean they will melt, the cylinder head is also aluminum, it's the thermal conductivity what keeps them cool, aluminum being excellent at that.
The valve stem and seat face can be reinforced with superficial treatments like anodizing and the tip can have a harder metal insert to make them last... a race and a half?
Aluminum has a low melting point, but also absorbs heat quick. Only the face of the valve is exposed to the very high temp. The rest of the valve is sucking the heat from it and putting it into the oil and head.
I would have expected that for the intake valves, but not for the exhaust. If there was going to be a problem, I would have expected severe erosion of the exhaust valve faces and seating surfaces.
Mostly into the head via the seats.
@vincentrobinette1507 ohh it will definitely eat those valves apart quickly. They can't last very long. It's actually very suprising they lasted as long as they dod
@meusana3681 the seats would not absorb heat anywhere near as fast as the valve stem would.
Sorry you are wrong. For race applications we specifically reseat the valves with a different seat angle specifically for this reason. Most of the cooling of the valves are due to a direct contact with the seat, which is cooled by water. A: the stem is cooled by oil which has less energy transfer. B: the stem is so far from the mouth of the valve that conduction from the valve during a single stroke isn't enough to make that heat travel all the way up before the head cools it down. While the seat gets conduction for 3 strokes.
C: there is no oil before the stem seals, so the stem runs dry all the way up to the springs.
I'm sorry, but this is well researched.@@hydrostaticshocker3048 You can plot valve temperatures with engine rotation, and you will see a set temp for most of the crank rotation, and then a spike when EITHER valve lifts of the seat, it's like active cooling is removed and the part raises in temperature for that entire stroke. Almost like the valve is being actively cooled by the head constantly, and as soon as it lifts from the head, that cooling isn't present anymore...This has been done on research platforms since the 80s.
Everyone seems to think they would melt yet we have heads and pistons made from aluminium already.
Its not about the peak temperature in the cylinder - its about how much is transferred to the parts and then how much of that is retained.
A bigger problem for aluminium valves is the wear characteristics. Even in this short run they showed noticable wear and in a normal use case they would need swapping far too often. Thats why rings are still not made from alloys.
However in a short term use case like drag racing or similar alloy valves make sense.
Heads and pistons don't have any part of themselves stuck out in a surrounding hot gas flow like an exhaust valve (the head) does. Amazed how long they lasted and that they were still viable for more after the visual check. I think some steady state running at some RPM above idle would of killed the valves.
@@xenuno How hot the exhaust valves get depends a lot on timing and mixture.
This is a very old carb engine with a low compression ratio, low octane fuel and timing done by hand.
Generally the less efficient it is the less heat is created.
All that it needs to stay safe is for the heat to dissipate fast enough to keep the materials under their weakening point.
Alloy is great at transferring heat and if the engine isn't making all that much in the first place its not a stretch to think they would last quite well.
At best that engine is only doing around 60hp which is only about 150,000 btu/hr.
Thats only 38,000 btu/hr per cylinder or around 640btu/min or only 10.7 btu/second.
A decent kettle makes around 2btu/second so we're only asking them to deal with five times that.
I agree that for high compression engines - especially older turbo ones which usually run very low timing numbers then the exhaust valves take a hammering - which is why a lot are made from inconel or are sodium filled.
This thing is making 15hp/cylinder at very most and dissipating that really isn't a big ask even for relatively low melting point metals.
This is actually impressive as fuck. Compression change was valves seating in almost guaranteed. Props to you for effectively making your own valves!
I held little hope for those valves expecting them to snap. really surprised. great job. cheers from South Africa
What's up South Africa
USA here in North Carolina
Need them to come fix eskom, 😂
This is quite an interesting result you are having, I did not expect them to last more than 5 minutes. Yet, the extensive stress you put on those valve stems are all handled well by the aluminum and within specs of constant pressures at all pistons. Nice video and thanx for making such videos... they are always interesting and fun to watch :D much love from malaysia
They will fail...Aluminium always will, even when lightly stressed, unlike steel they will fatigue. Its the big problem with aluminium and why airframes have limited life - They gonna fail no matter what. Like you I thought about five minutes too! Why this channel is amazing. They should have tested to destruction - It wouldn't have taken long. (Says me...?)
It's common enough to run aluminium alloy engine parts, mainly rods, pistons and valves. They do last a fair amount of time, though with exception of pistons they're not anywhere near as long as steel parts. Rods and valves elongate over time and the engine loses performance since longer rods = smaller volume and longer valves = reduced compression.
@@martinda7446 True, metallurgy proves that aluminum corrodes faster, gets fatigued easily and just won't work for everyday application. If only he'd push it harder like the other stuff he stress tested on... you can see that he is somewhat holding back on these valves as a total engine repair is costly and all that. However, it is interesting how long they lasted in the video. PS I thought that the valve stem would elongate and bust the engine on my initial presumption LOL
@@michaelbuckers That was what I thought what the valve would do in the first 5 minutes, I really thought that either it elongates and break off in the cylinder or it would just kinda oobleck itself once it gets hot enough. I do however love the fact that this man will do interesting stuff for the sake of science and fans :D
Same, I was surprised they lasted. They definitely won't last long though. But that's why we have titanium
Impressive. I'd have guessed they would have melted almost straight away, exhaust valves are often running very hot. almost glowing
My thoughts exactly. But these guys did the experiment and when the apocalypse comes and we have to make do with what we have, it is good to know we can make valves out of aluminium which will at least get you away from the 1st phase of zombies. I thought it might have lasted a minute or two, but hey, now I know it will last a while thanks to Garage 54.
@@MrMaxeemumshouldn't have to wait too much longer for the apocalypse 😃
But apocalypse also means unveiling, which is exactly what we've been seeing since 2020 🙃
I thougt the valve spring clip that it would sheer off not melti.g why? Becouse the cil head is allu as well
Yeah, but they are using an old engine design that doesn't really make enough power to push the limits of the components. Those Ladas were built to handle anything and keep going, not make a ton of power. I'd be curious to see it tried on an engine that makes more horsepower per cubic inch and thus has higher exhaust temps.
Aluminum shed heat very quickly
These guys are awesome, the level of skill, knowledge, and equipment necessary to fabricate all this stuff, you just don’t see it anywhere else. It’s so unique, and fascinating.
Even before I finished reading the title I thought.. FORGET IT!!
Aluminium will always fail. Not, likely to fail or may fail, but always fail. Toughest alloy you got included.. Aluminium has great properties, heat transfer is many times better than steel, weight of course, but strength and toughness will always lag behind. The killer though is that steel will not fail until it is stressed beyond its elastic limit, if you stress it it will be as good as new if you keep it within that linear part of the stress/strain curve. Not so with aluminium, it will always fail, at some point even if stressed lightly. Valves need to be TOUGH. These never will be tough enough. Would be interesting to see how long they do last in use.
It is though why this channel is so brilliant, they test stuff! This was a magnificent test. You just wish they would go the whole way and do it scientifically. Measure the valves carefully run at extended RPM for some length, etc You need to run to destruction for a proper test.
Agreed. They havent got to a hill at 5000+ rpms to really stress them. I guess in a hurry one could use them with risk of breaking the engine, but briving slowly could provide a way to get out of a troublesome situation in a hypotetical case
Dural has about three times the heat expansion of the normal used Austenite steel. Therefore you have to start with three times of valve play. Otherways if it gets hot, may be it closes not perfect. As they cool down really fast due their good heat condutivity, the compression is good again. Watch inlet from cyl one. It is much darker than the other inlet valves. An other issue could be stretching the shafts by the springs as on regular valves with stronger springs over the years. Your experiments are great. Something between playing around, thinking outside the box and rocket science...👍
I've always wanted to convert Weber carburetors to a blow through configuration, fabricate an intake manifold matching however many cylinders the engine has, weld t3 turbo flanges on each runner and bolt very small turbos to each individual flange. You would have to have a sort of pre atomization expansion chamber for each cylinder. Which helps the exhaust turbine maintain it's energy through the intake and compression strokes. This is only necessary when adding a turbo to a single cylinder engine as anything from 2 to 12 cylinders have their counterparts in the exhaust or power stroke effectively maintaining the turbines velocity. Ive also wanted to try to mount say 4 slide style motorcycle carburetors to like a K24a1 and try 4 turbos that way.
@8:42 you can see sparks between a gap between the firewall and wire harness.
@8:48 you can see another one by Vlads index finger.
@8:51 by the bottom of exhaust manifold
@8:52 you can see sparks further down by the wire harness.
Blink and you'll miss it. I wonder if that had to do anything with the misfire
Finaly the comnent i searged for i thougt i was the only one noticing that
Now THIS was a surprise . Ford's V8 valves , especially on the Cleveland V8's, have a habit to drop the (friction welded on ) head at random . Have you ever encountered hollow sodium filled valves ? Amazing stuff...
Cool story bro
A habit of dropping the head? How does that work??
@@digitalchaos1980 maybe it hits too hard the seats and the stress breaks them
There is few good explanations..... Aluminum has very good thermal conductivity, so it dissipates heat quickly to valve seat, engine that runs quite rich and has overlap in valves flushes cylinder with fresh cold mixture... this mixture cools down exhaust valves and takes heat out from it.
We need an engine with all in house internals
@BmiRussian - thank you for always doing an amazing job translating for us. Love this channel and would be hard to understand it with out you. Thank you again 😀
Here I am fascinated by sodium filled valves! This was a cool test!
That is incredible! Regardless of the type of aluminum, I never thought that was possible. As I see, Lada engines from that era are very good.
I tried to confirm this online but didnt find anything; My car mechanics teacher said that Porsche had a hand in designing the lada ohc engine, they were and still are a consulting company after all. And also, the lada ohc engine is very similar to old vw ohc engines, g60 engine code, irc
Yall should make a entire engine out of a single metal, with the machining skills you have now you can probably do it
If you made a 2 piece valve aluminium setup it would work better because then you could run coolant through it. By having the outside of it slide into the bottom with a good height depth then it would act as a pump. The flat bottom part of your poppet valve works as normal, it just needs an overhang area to allow for an o-ring or similar to have a hollow outer valve cover to go over it and seal to the valve underneath. Or a similar method, it depends on what is easiest for you. its pretty easy to cast and then machine this pretty quickly which is why I suggested it. The inner valve gets pushed first then the outer valve joins in after, this allows for the pumping action to occur since it squeezes any fluid down into the bottom flat part of the poppet area. The outer valve stem inner diameter area is going to have a bunch of straight triangle parts that lead to the inner non-hollow stem's outer diameter. The inner non-hollow stem outer diameter just needs grooves cut into it so those inner diameter long triangles fit into the inner stem outer diameter grooves that have been cut. Make sure to use a tolerance to allow for expansion to occur and everything to run without causing too much friction. A lubricating fluid would be best to use. The outer stem near the flat part needs to have a secondary small thin strip of some spring steel to help everything stay together but also allow for the return of the outer stem of the poppet valve. Plus it helps separate the fluid and gas when you put some holes or slots in it. It makes sure the liquid stays where the heat is, the inner poppet valve, and then get pumped to the outer part of the stem after a phase change.
Hope it helps out the design :)
Like sodium filled ?
I believe they'll take the heat as well as the rest of the cylinder head.
At higher rpm I'd expect the head of the valve to brake off.
Next, under extended use, the keepers would wear into their groves, and become sloppy, and unseat freeing the retainers and spring ...(sorry) then drop the valve.
They'll elongate and lose compression long before that happens.
@@michaelbuckers if they become soft enough to elongate from weakness due to heat, why wouldn't they break and drop their head as I previously stated ?
You still have a valve spring pulling against them.
As well, all seen rockers pound out keepers.
Once thev loosen, they deform their groves, fall out, valve drops.
@@SeymourBalz You will only have spring pressure until the set clearance between cam lobe and bucket (DOHC), tappet and cam lobe (pushrod), and fork and cam lobe (SOHC) disappears due to any combination of stretch, expansion, and valve side seat wear & erosion. Mike is right ..
I suppose give or take temperature is the factor here, +/- Aluminum melts runs like water at 400c . With a naturally aspirated engine it can maybe race for like said for a lap but with a turbo, they will melt down fast.
Also I like the fact how the valves take the seating point so well, taking shape and sealing the combustion area.
There are many other soft metals to try that have melt point above 1000C . Try them.
this was Duralumin which is more durable than normal alminum and has a higher melting point thanks to the copper mixture. it can also harden over several days if heat treated.
some early engines like pacific vapor used piston vacuum to open intake valve. as an experiment you could take the intake lobes off an overhead camshaft, or remove the intake pushrods, and replace the stiff spring with a weak, and see will it run on exhaust only camshaft.
We had an old gasoline bulldozer that ran fine with a broken intake spring because the engine sucked the valve open and then blew it shut.
Wasn't it only ever practised with atmospheric engines?
Would be interesting to see how such a setup performs with forced induction...
You made some pretty incredible forged aluminum valves.
That was pretty amazing. I really didn't think that the aluminum valves would hold up for more than a few minutes, but they did ! and the engine ran and drove very well considering that the valves were made from soft aluminum instead of steel...
The battery seems to be spinning engine faster on the second test. That may one reason why the compression is higher the second time around.
While I'm not surprised they worked, I think long term wear and erosion are going to be a problem. Also, clearances will probably have to be greater as thermal expansion will be greater and I believe this will cause excessive wear during cold operation. Still, a very worthwhile experiment!
Finally my question 10 ago finally answered. Thank you so much garage54, you make the incredible idea and revealed the new idea to us.
I love watching these guys. They do the things that most of us have only wondered about. And thanks to these guys now we know.
Excellent work with the valves this is a testament to the quality off the machining work your guys do. when you need a part just make it. as always your content in these videos is second to no one kudos guys.
"Hey there Fellows" is a lengendary line
Lighter spring & valve motor setups helps reduce 'Valve Float' at higher rev ranges allowing higher Redlines'. You should have tried comparing the rev redlines... Motor with standard valves with 2 springs v motor with lightened valves with 1 spring.... 😏
The electronic 'Freevalve' tech eliminates 'Floating valve' as they are controlled in a completely different manor so can be 'Infinately tuned' (like a 'Infinate variability 'VTEC') for max power to max fuel efficiency... It's brilliant the way the designers & engineers overcome many problems with the age old tech of valves in motors...
There's even one guy who made his own 'Freevalve' tech and put it on his MX-5 motor!
😎🇬🇧
Im understanding garage 54 is mechanical science based video series. These gents know their stuff..very interesting. 👍
I was somewhat surprised by the compression test results considering aluminum's relatively low creep temperature of ~330°C. It would be interesting to see an extended test of the engine to see how long the valves would last, and where they would fail first: stem or seat?
Awesome Video Vlad and Team! I wouldn't have expected that they would work. It would have been interesting to have measured the valve stems to see if they had stretched or not though. Please keep the amazing content coming! I really enjoy your videos!
17:05 for proper compression check, one must use a ambient pressure sensor. Then do the math. How much pressure did you make in cylinder divided by ambient pressure. Thats is compression ratio. Compare to factory rating. The C/R can stay the same and throughout the day ambient pressure changes, and dramatically on weather changes. "boost weather" is real.
so with aluminum i was a bit surprised that it lasted that long not because of the heat as pistons and all are also aluminum so the valves would cool on the head as they conduct heat extremely well and there's the air fuel mixture. however the fact that the valves didn't break or deform is surprising as aluminum is a rather soft metal and so you'd think they would just stretch or mushroom out at the seats, because this went soo well i might try this on a engine running 14.5:1 compression and see what happens
well it is Duralumin which is tougher than regular aluminum and is hardenable. plus it has copper which helps with the heat.
Solid!
Top KEK!
Peace be with you.
I love yall, all teh way from US South Carolina
im from South Carolina too 👍
Me too ✋
Lake wylie here!@@brycesstuff
Vtec Lada next please
Very interesting - I was convinced the exhaust valves would fail, but no - as you say, could be good for racing limited use
if you actualy seen the production prosses of making valves having aluminum work that well was a huge suprice
I LOVE The lada engine sound!
This is one of the best channels in the world!
If these valves can hold up to the heat, you can reduce valve spring strength for the reduction in valve mass. Also this can reduce valve stem stretch! from Nils 😊 Ooops - I spoke too soon! Also check valve length before and after. I salute you!!
These kind of videos are my absolute favorite!! Keep it up!
One of the jobs of the valve seat is to absorb excess heat from the valve. Given that aluminium has very good thermal condictivity and decent thermal capacity, they'll survive better than their melting point would suggest.
Also given that they showed deformation under the strain of the valve train components they'll probably end up getting very good valve to seat contact which further increases their ability to dissipate heat.
Well done. Worked very well.
That surprised the crap out of me. I really expected almost instant galling and failure.
Same here, very surprising.
They used half the valve springs
Now i think this could definitely help the exhaust valves from getting too hot but the way aluminum fatigues this might be good for a race engine but longevity is going prove to be lackluster. Unlike steel aluminum never stops deforming and once it starts to fatigue it becomes even weaker than the last time until the point of failure. Given the springs are always trying to pull the valve stem while the head keeps the valve from moving at the seat. A lot of tension and only gets stronger when the valve is pushed open.
duralumin can be heat treated and hardened. and the copper mixture helps it with heat.
I‘d say running just 1 spring still was too strong for closing such a light valve. That’s most likely why you heard the slapping of the seat and why the seal grooved it so much in a short time. Properly tuned springs for the lightweight valves would allow them to be ran much longer than a race I’d say.
I am amazed at how durable the Lada engines are. They are made cheaply but since the design is so simple they can handle a lot of abuse. The rest of a Lada, not so good, but the engine is remarkably solid.
Cast and machine a crankshaft out of some soft metal like brass. Make pistons of tin/lead alloy.
Since Aluminum and iron expand at different rates, you could try an aluminum head as well as the valves to match their expansion rate, then they should continue to seal and keep from missing.
not a materials engineer here but you should check the aluminum from HDDs, its high silicon aluminum , it has less thermal expansion and better machinability. No idea about tenacity or fatigue resistance but its way better than regular aluminum.
I suppose it all comes down to the EGT's. If they are not over 660 oC for more than a few seconds, should be fine. If they go over for any length of time...... Good night. Intake should be OK because it is being cooled and the exhaust is really being blow torched.
thermal expansion of aluminum and steel differ greatly . aluminum about twice as much as steel at the same temp . Just a thought . Could affect seat contact area and valve guide clearances
7000 series aluminum ie... "7075 aluminum " would be a better fit than duralumin. Duralumin is quite a bit stronger than a non alloy of aluminum. However stronger, duralumin is extremely soft, malleable, and alot more prone to corrosion. It was an interesting experiment. Thanks for all the crazy concoctions to entertain all of us.😉
Sparked and compression heard the valve, then the intake charge cools them. Just saying it's not 100 percent heat, all the time.
Very cool test.
......everything you test is cool. 👍
If you were to DLC coat them then they would be perfect...very interesting guys thanks for the insight.
Very interesting experement fellas, surprised by the results, great work 👍👍
Again u guys never fail to amaze me keep up the good work 👏 🙌 👍
The aluminum expands more outside of the guide the exhuast valve need to be necked there. Great video thankyou for doing everything noone would bother to do! This is curiosity science!
22:04 exactly what i thought too.
Would be interessting to see a unconventional tuned engine (light valves, light flywheel...) compares to a stock one.
I bet the valve stems are stretching under the valve spring tension. Those being aluminum and light AF they do not need nearly the amount of spring pressure as the heavier steel or titanium valves. Although the titanium won't be as heavy as the steel.
Valves are cooled by the head (with cooling liquid), also the temperature in the cylinder is at its highest only for some part of the cycle, guess that is why the aluminum part doesn't melt.
I want to learn Russian just so I can understand him talk in his own words. I love what he is doing! 🙂
Vlad communicates in slang with a lot of interjections. In the American variation, this is how rednecks communicate.
It possibly needs lighter spring pressure could be streching the valves. Cool test ! I thaught the exhaust valves would not be able to take the heat.
Iguess you already addressed the valve spring issue. Good video!
impressive work you guys are doing.
There might be a use of aluninium valves at very high rpm if the aluminium valves get a special coating at the contact points and an adequate va valve drive that iguals out the thermal extension
...Curious about the gap/clearence you use between valves guides and valves !?
I think that after a certain time, these valves would inevitably break. Aluminum does not have the same fatigue as steel
In any case, good work, very interesting!
These videos are always interesting, take your time and keep it up!
The lighter the better as long as it holds.
Hey what happened to the lada jz engine the one you guy cut in half and weld it to the full lada engine what become to that engine love to see it breaking it limit with a turbo build
The valve stems are growing as it heats up. Aluminum has a high thermal expansion as well as finite dutycycle and creep.
Here's an idea: Try making a rotary valve head like the Saunders Rotary Valve system. You seem technically competent enough to handle machining it. It's actually a simpler system.
Results completely surprised me
Modern automobiles have aluminum heads and aluminum blocks, pistons, and valves pretty interesting. Maybe the Futures is a completely all-aluminum engine, including the crank shaft?
aluminum conducts heat very well. That's may be the reason, is not melting or deforming by the extreme heat.
Cut the valve seats wider, increase the exhaust valve stem clearance, remove the exhaust valve stem seals and see if you can use a even lighter valve spring.
I would have liked to see what rpm you got valve float at with the stock valves vs how fast you could make power with the aluminum ones.
I can certainly imagine racing parts lije that. Maybe with deposition of a hard material on the wear surfaces.
Classic garage 54 experiment 👍
I was going to mention how about pneumatic valves ( still using the camshaft but closing them pneumatically like F1 cars which is a fairly simple mod )
or how about rotary valve ? there are a few quite good ones but are quite critical on tolerances and combustion sealing .
Slide throttle maybe ?like a DFV again fault simple or a barrel throttle?
Always interesting content , nice one guys 🇬🇧😇😎
Well sounds like a useful idea brand I'd like to see a back to back comparison on an engine dyno but you probably need lighter springs to see much of a difference
The valves not melting doesn't surprise me as the head is also ally. I think the main reason we run hard valves is due to mechanical wear on the stem and head.
what about lifter clearence, I´m sure, they stretched. And the exhaust groove could be tortion between open and seated. A little tortion in alum at 500c is quite softer.
Wouldn't the force on the valve returning be the concern with stronger valve springs as opposed to the force of the valve being depressed ?
I bet those young bucks have incredible knowledge after a year at your shop.
Guys, make the timing in oil with belt, instead of the chain, this is what manufacturers are doing recently. How quiet the lada will be.
14:57 Prelude 4th Gen Nice!
Preludes are alright. I used to own a 5th gen.
Try crankshaft and camshafts made from aluminium. Try most part from aluminium !
I appreciate when you guys use a compression guage with psi and bar so i actually know whats goin on lol
3 had the bronze piston in it, right? That was probably the worst for the bore. Hard enough to cause wear but soft enough to get cockeyed.
You definitely don't want your head blown off!
The less weight is good for racing but the much larger tulip shaped head I bet reduces flow. But this really was not the point of this experiment, and a great experiment it was!