Will an engine start on RUBBER piston rings?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
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In this episode - all of the makings of a customary "try hard - fail hard" scenario, but the results of this one are actually quite interesting.
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Silicone would possibly work better than butyl or latex rubber, some silicone can withstand pretty high temps.
Not without a change in density
The fuel will destroy silicone.
@@michaelsestito3983 You actually think it would last that long? lol
Yes, please try silicone!
Perhaps the 4 ring piston motor with standard top and bottom rings, and silicone in 2 and 3 to see if it boosts compression but minimizes the silicone fuel/oil problems.
"what burns out doesn't rust out" words to live by for sure!😄
Yeah, that's the first time I heard that expression, it's a good one
@@irgant ah! so a play on words on the original phrase. that makes it even better! :-)
Neil Young
Got that right! Click my name to see a real burnout.
I'd like to see those rubber piston rings tested in an actual car on the test track, so we could see how far the rings can truly take a car.
yeah, that would be so interesting to watch
Try a car with a trailer to see if the rubbers can deal a high Pressure with high temperature
I imagine that the problem with rubber/silicone/teflon rings is that over time small pieces of this material can fall into the crankcase and go to the oil pump, and this could ruin the oil pump and you would lose the engine for lack of oil in the crankshaft and valve train.
Probably needed an oil control ring in there to control the flow of oil. Looks like they kept combustion gases out of the crankcase, but forced oil off the wall upwards into the combustion chamber. Pretty fascinating!
I think so too!
The oil may also of helped preserve the rings from getting damaged
@@BLAZE13011 I thought about that too. Eventually they are going to flatten and/or fail, but it is very interesting because I thought combustion gases would burn them up within a minute or two!
@@Flies2FLL same thought, interesting nevertheless I figured they'd melt and gall up the cylinder Walls
I'm thinking the o ring is a oil ring, but pressure and vacuum are letting it or pushing behind the O rings, so a larger or thicker bottom ring would be better along with a fully mirror polished bore.
Pro tip: just like at 17:16 always ensure that you have a steady stream of water pouring onto your alternator so it doesn't overheat.
THAT AMAZED ME TOO , IT WILL RUN A CAR I BET
Doesn’t apply is Russia
Perhaps that's one of the parts that better to rust out rather than burn out.
I'VE ONLY BEEN WORKING ON CARS SINCE THE LATE 70S. I SOLVED ALT BELTS THAT FLY OFF DUE TO HI RPM BUT I'M TOO MUCH A NOOB TO KNOW THAT ALTERNATOR SECRET, COMRAD. I SHOULDN'T HAVE LAUGHED BUT YOU ARE THE ONE THAT POINTED IT OUT. IS IT COLD WAR OR COLD WATER TECHNOLOGY? QUIT LOL. 😆🤣😂
That went well, you should do it again with an oil ring and put the engine back in the car, and drive it to see how well it goes.
oh, someone has tried rubber piston rings because they make perfect sense for piston rings🤣🤣🤣
To prevent the twisting O rings just bevel the top of the bore ever so slightly. then with a standard oil ring and 2 o rings as compression rings and a proper cooling system I believe this engine would run, and run well.
kind of give new meaning to the term burning rubber, doesn't it?🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
bruh these guys are literally having infinite amount of ideas
They run off the comments it's everyone else's good ideas
They also have an unlimited amount of ladas
Брух
I 107% like all the crazy things you come up with! Your videos are well made, your crew is great, and BMI too! THANKS!! I'm amazed the O rings held up at all, I expected them to burn up/wear down right away...
we can use tap water sure I love it🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Man, seeing my expectations get turned on their head is rather exciting. I didn't think it'd run for 30 seconds.
i thought maybe a minute - i was wrong too! :-)
As someone who enjoys making running model engines, using viton o-rings is actually common practice in place of traditional piston rings.
Silicone can probably take some heat.
Same - I'm working on the Tiny inline 4. Wouldn't fancy trying to make and fit proper rings on a 3/8 piston. I've got plenty of nice running aero engines with no rings at all.
please follow this up by installing the engine in a car, immediately start driving until it dies or runs out of gas. I had always assumed that the rubber would be consumed immediately. I am impressed with your dedication to whimsical ideas.
That was really awesome to watch. Here i was thinking it would only last 5 minutes. I'm impressed. I say go for it. I'd love to see that video. I had a blast watching this one. Thanks Team Garage 54. Also.. never underestimate the power and reliability of a Lada in my opinion. We need Ladas in the states. Talk about reliability. And it looks like a simple vehicle to work on. Please do correct me if I'm wrong though. Byes for now. See ya next video.
Lada’s are based on sixties Fiat’s from Italy
@@telocho Kool. I did not know that. Thanks for telling me. I learned something which awesome, because everytime you learn something it's always a good day. To bad Fiat Chrysler makes junk now. I tell ya with the quality of the vehicles going down the drain in the states. Makes me long for quality vehicles from other countries. Sorry for rambling. My apologies. Thanks for teaching me something awesome about Ladas, have an awesome day or night. Byes for now.
@@telocho The older ones yes.
I imagine the USA would have a lot of "Ladas" the choose from, for example cars with the general motors 3800 motor?
@@android584 I would hope not. I would prefer the original motor. I have a 350 motor In My truck and a little 3 cylinder in my Geo Metro LSI. I have really good performance from them. Granted my Geo motor is worn out but it still takes me where I'd like to go. I just gotta avoid the interstate as my motor don't have the full 60 hp or whatever it is. But man that fuel economy is nice.
Finally got some of your merch coming to Colorado, thanks for doing PayPal. Stoked!
What about using square O-rings. Like the ones used in the pistons of brake calipers. Think they would have better scrapping capability and more sealing surface.
On the top two ring lands use square cut rubber seals like in automatic transmissions and use the factory oil control ring i really think the square cut rubber seals will do the trick I absolutely love watching your channel you guys do stuff like I did when I was younger lol keep it coming
I was thinking about this as well, I'm glad someone already commented it
Or perhaps rubber seals that are half circles so that they sit flush on the piston but still retain the same seal as before?
YES I THINK YOUR ON TO SOMETHING WITH THE UPPER EDGE BEVELED A LITTLE TOO
@@jrmyadventr GENIUS YOU SHOULD BE AN ENGINEER
@@SMMBHQ-cg2zy I do like to think of myself as an engineer funny enough, not ever gonna go to school for it though lol
Normal engines use steel split rings for a good reason. On the power stroke the rings expand ( all the way down to the oil ring ) and scrub the oil back down into the oil pan. When the power stroke is over, the pressure decreases, the rings close up and do not pump oil up into the cylinder very much.
What you have built is the exact opposite. On the power stroke the pressure pushes the O-rings into the grooves causing them to NOT pump the oil back into the oil pan. At the end of the power stroke the pressure decreases, causing the O-rings to expand, which pumps all of the oil on the cylinder wall up into the cylinder. This fowls the plug and causes other various problems.
I dont know if it was me you listened to, but I am very pleased that you have tried it! :D
Im laughing at the moment, im at the part where you test compression for 2nd time on rubber rings, after it ran for a while :DD! Thanks for making me laugh, you guys are legends!
I've seen viton o-rings used on home made model engines and they work like a charm for years. They wont last for ever, but long enough for a moderate duty engine.
1. O-rings need be fitted with proper clearances so as to fill the groove properly when compressed. If the groove volume is smaller that the volume of the o-ring you will big problems as the o-rings cant crush beyond its mass properties. It will lock or "spill out".
2. This engine seems to be poorly tuned. Carb not set properly? It should be able to idle smoothly.
LOVE THE CHANNEL!
Interestingly, the second compression ring usually has some oil control capabilities (known as a scraper-type design). A round o-ring will have limited ability to keep excessive oil from blowing past the piston. What would be interesting is if a florastor seal used in transmissions would work, but those have to be "sized" after installing to the piston. Maybe a square-cut seal (like those on oil filters) could work? Something to keep the oil from passing through and fouling the plugs. "Rubber" piston rings could work for 10, 20, or even 30,000km, but I would not buy a car that needs the engine overhauled every 30k kilos. Interesting experiment. Great work, keep inspired and you inspire others.
Amazing how well it ran, never would have expected that. How about putting the engine in a Lada and test driving around a track until the engine finally stops, endurance test!
rustymotor I agree. There's nothing like putting it into a real world scenario and "load testing" it. The weight, speed and torque demands of a track should very quickly weed out any weak links in the power chain. How intriguing and fascinating though.
Yes!!!!!!
I Love this! I'm going to try this on my Old Push Mower that has lost compression, & on my 08 Honda Fit junk car I bought for $400. I 'm turning it into a truck. Garage 54 style! I'll call it a Fitmino LOL.
YES AND VIDEO IT AND START YOUR OWN CHANNEL ON YOU TUBE
Most funny part is that the water pours out straight onto the alternator. :D
Water helps electricity flow 😉.
The reason that cilinder 1 and 4 only worked at high rev, is that the sealing between cilinder and piston by the tension of the piston rings is not enough at high revs.
The sealing between piston and cilinder at high rev is established due the combustion pressure that gets behind the piston rings and push the rings harder to the cilinder walls. At low revs, like during the compression test, you get 8bar pressure at all 4 cilinders, but when a engine is running, the combustion pressure is much higher, with a healty engine arround 20bar at low rev, and arround 70bar at high rev.
With the twisted rubber rings the sealing was good for 8bar, but above (low revs during running) they started to leak, then at high revs, the rubber rings started to get more pressure from behind due the combustion pressure , get more squeezed against the cilinder walls and could handle higher combustion pressure.
A part of misfiring could also be due water on the ignition system like sparkplug cables etc...
Put a conventional oil ring in the top groove so the rubber o rings can get oil lube and still provide compression. I bet that will work better
Two other things to check...Check for a carbon trailed distributor cap, and check the cylinder head. I suspect the valve clearance is too tight, and, check the valve guide seals. It's hard for me to imagine that the O-rings let all that oil into the chambers, and not have any blow-by. I'm willing to bet, the O-rings did even better than you thought!
Great video as always, would love to see the engine running better, shame those 2 cylinders had twisted o rings. I think another 4 ring setup would be a good test with the top 2 rings as standard to help keep the heat away and the bottom 2 as o rings to boost compression
what sort of miracle motor is this?🤣🤣🤣
with smaller model engines, the rubber rings work(Nitrile will last the best), but the use of an oil control ring definitely helps keep the cylinder clean
Guys have been using o-rings on model engines for years. Some of them have run at several years of shows with no failures. The Chinese are also selling models like this.
You should put this in a car and see how it does. Won't do 100,000 km for sure, but I bet you can drive around the block enough times to get bored.
I have seen a Chinese weed eater use them before. Idk about other ones cause I’ve only had to open that one. But the oring wasn’t the reason why I opened it up and it looked nice inside
Yeah Im sure rubber rings are fine for non pressure applications, but once you put the car in drive and step on it, the pressure would probably blow out those rings. Still want to see it though.
Hydraulic pistons have rubber o-rings and they run thousands of psi
@@tboniusmaximus3047 yes but hydraulic pistons don’t deal with the extreme high and constant heat of internal combustion. Pneumatic pistons have rubber o rings too.
Think about that for a moment lol when machines hydraulic oil cooler is twice as big as the radiator or oil cooler…
Growing up in Alaska,
I heard stories of pioneers having to use oil soaked strips of leather belt strap as piston rings for a snowmobile in order to escape the wilderness.
Interesting concept but you have to be mindful that by changing from steel to rubber you lose a lot of the heat transfer from your piston crown to the cylinder walls
Lol there's not a lot of heat transfer between the piston and block via the rings 🤣
I think untwist and refit the rubber rings, and install the motor and go for a drive. To see what happens at higher load
Use silicone rings on the modified 4-ring pistons you made, in a car with proper engine cooling. See how long they run
I commented about using silicone too, but ppl brought up degradation from petroleum exposure. Perhaps the 4 ring pistons with standard top and bottom rings, and silicone in 2 and 3 to see if it boosts compression but minimizes the silicone fuel/oil exposure problem.
Viton in a higher durometer might work better
...or run it on alcohol! no cooling needed....
@@koenielinux3131 BRILLIANT GUY
@@9morrical SMART
I think that having an oil ring added will let the rubber rings burn up. The oil getting up on the rings added more sealing for them and compression went up. I believe if you take away the excessive oil, it will fail.
SO, what if you add the oil ring where it belongs and put some tiny holes in the base of the O ring grooves so they get some oil and not excessive oil ??
GREAT videos guys! Love watching what you do. 😃
There is a small gap starting at the cylinder wall and goes inwards towards the center of the cylinder where the air/fuel mix doesn't combust. It's just a few millimeters deep (or maybe even less) so you shouldn't have to worry about flame touching the bare rubber rings but after the engine gets up to normal operating temperature is where you might start seeing excessive abuse on the rubber. Another point of concern might be with the rubber rings absorbing oil and fuel over time causing the rubber to expand and become more porous. Long term exposure to those chemicals and that kind of heat/friction abuse is a recipe for disaster, eventually. Excellent video.
I actually tested that on my miniature DIY engine. Just normal O-ring on the piston, and it works fine.
Many different styles of rubber o rings on the market these days. Viton you'll have to be more specific. They make green, red, orange, blue, black viton rings these days. Silicone viton rings. I believe you are onto something here and I agree with the oil control ring. I also believe it would need a ring closer to the top that's rated for intense heat. So maybe would be a combination of colors. Maybe even 4 rings. Make the ring grooves deeper. You could have 1 high temperature resilience ring at the very top. 2 black rings in the middle and lastly the oil control ring. If you were looking for an engine that would last near indefinitely you'd have to find a way to re-sleeve the cylinders with a Teflon tube that could also handle high heat. Then there would be almost no friction between parts only friction between the compression of the rings. Allowing the piston to really flow freely while still keeping compression.
That worked way WAY better than I would have ever guessed.
Try replacing the piston rings with hydraulic cylinder packing seals
Being a directional pressure seal, it would probably pump a lot of oil past the seal on the downward stroke and the suction of intake. However, compression would be great.
@@kenbakker3241 You could do 2 in different orientation.
@@kenbakker3241 keep the regular oil control ring in addition to the hydraulic cylinder seals. That should keep oil consumption down. It would still would burn some but I think there would be less friction than having 2 seals in opposite directions.
@@kenbakker3241 Not a problem! Just run a 25:1 2 stroke mix in the crankcase lol. World's first runaway petrol engine.
putting one in the oil control land without blocking the drain holes in the piston forced oil up. What people call an oil ring is simply a drain, the 2nd ring is what actually scrapes the oil off the cylinder. Put the original oil control ring back, replace the top 2 with at least vitron or better flueroelastomer rings in a higher durometer. Getting backup rings in the pack would be ideal also, possibly teflon. It would all work real well if everything was properly sized with the right materials, wont be as long lived as metal rings but the only real problem will be the surface speed of the rings with any real rpm. No reason it shouldnt idle for days or weeks though.
Eu gosto demais dessas experiências um abraço aqui do Brasil
Aee letra jjjj
Talk english, I dont speak my native either
I've been thinking about this for quite awhile now, awsome yall made a video on it!
a good experiment might be to make a piston out of EPDM, Neoprene, Nitrile, SBR, Silicone, or Viton. Maybe put an aluminum core in it to connect to the rod then surrounded by a thick layer of rubber to fill the cylinder and no rings.
That could be very interesting to try silicone ring for their temperature resistance
And if your bathroom is not finished, how about take some times to made new parts ? Brake disc and metal pads , and if possible take exterior tiles made for cold resist, they should be more density ceramic
Have fun guys
You're crazy and ..... I love it 😎👍👍
Wow the compression is great now. I was amazed at the results. Perhaps I can put rubber rings on my tractor now😂
yeah, those piston rings just needed to be broken in, so they seated better🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Fantastic experiment Vlad! 👍
Maybe drop the diameter of the rings by like 1%-3% and switch to silicone like others suggested.
I think with slightly smaller rings of better material this becomes a big thing
I think you're right. Buna-n is only good to around 100C before it gives up. Silicone is good all the way up to 200C.
I have an idea. Use a correct oil ring for proper oil removal. Using an upper metal compression ring to protect the rubber from flame accessing the O-ring and preventing accidental. Diesel ing. Shave the inside of the rubber O-ring to give it a slightly flat surface to encourage it to stay incorrect position without twisting. I would be curious to see what happens and if it can be durable. Maybe add more rubber O-rings to help stabilize the piston help quiet the engine.
You could widen the second groove and install a TFER hydraulic seal. It's a PTFE ring and rubber expander. Available in bronze loaded types as well. Maximum speed though is 12 feet / second. With an 80 mm stroke, that's 1371 RPM.
If I remember corectly one of the outboard engine manufacturers was running a two-stroke with Teflon piston rings the reason for that was so that they could use very little two-stroke oil in the mix to make a fairly clean burning two-stroke
this video definitly need a part 2 with better rubber rings, ones that can withstand high temperatures
I would love to see an oil ring and 2 Orings in a car for proper testing. Great video! Cant wait for the next one.
That's amazing..... I really thought it was going to start, but lock after 30 seconds. Wow 🤯
This experiment deserves complete installation with proper cooling and ignition setting, then install to car. We want to see, how long it can last on streets. Great one!
PEEK plastic rings would be interesting experiment, we use in top fuel engines that material preventing piston scuffing...
Garage 54 answering the questions you never you knew you needed the answers to. I am now scared people are going to actually do this to sell a car. Impressed they did so good.😲
I use silicone rings in my nitro RC engines and they are amazing for a race or 2 if short
Use a different profile ring such as a square or rectangular, and re-machine the ring grooves accordingly. I was surprised as you when it ran so well!
maybe just one o ring between an iron ring and the oil control ring would help, the oil in the cylynders may be from the valve stem seals
I support this channel not because of their crazy ideas I love their effort their creativity and team work just to fit random parts on their engines.
THIS WAS A WONDERFUL EPISODE AND DESERVES MORE RESEARCH WHAT CANT READ PROPERTIES OF UNDEFINED SHOT
Global O-Ring and Seal
Neoprene, or Chloroprene rubber, was the first synthetic rubber developed commercially and exhibits generally good ozone, aging and chemical resistance. It has good mechanical properties over a wide temperature range.
Neoprene resists degradation more than natural or synthetic rubber. Additionally, the material resists burning better than exclusively hydrocarbon based rubbers, making it appropriate for fire retardant applications. .
Oil on top of cylinders would have been coming past the valve stems, especially with good compression which would have made the vacuum "worse" in regards to inlet valve oil bypass
Brilliant work guys.
Stay safe all.
I Am blowned away that motor, Run so long, Makes no sense, You learn something new everyday
Use some flat back-up rings on top and bottom of the o-ring in oil groove
I guess the engine didnt die because of the rings having blow by, but because the pistons started sticking. The metal rings are the only thing directinh heat from the pistons to the engine block, if you use rubber for this task the pistons will get hot until they expand to the point where they tick to the cilinder walls.
I seen it but can not believe the motor is running. Great idea.
Amazing, oil is not good for rubber usually, I know rubber handles heat without a problem also, but like you Vlad, I'm amazed that those rings survived everything! LADA!!!!!
Man! You guys are great.
Maybe drill .005 holes above the top ring for upper lube.
Please continue this project.
Seriously more needs to be done with this, Very interesting.
You all are awesome.. This video was so interesting. I never thought it'd run much less that long...
Depending on the rubber they are made of it is possible they absorbed oil making them swell up. That would definitely increase compression.
What if you used stainless steel cylinders in place of the rings? They could be approximately 2 to 3 millimeters in length and laid end to end around each ring groove. The roundness should create less friction by rolling up and down the sides. And being cylinder shaped laid end to end they should hold the compression as well. There will be tiny gaps between each one and that will, or should allow for the oil to still be able to lubricate the walls appropriately like regular rings would.
Theoretically it should create more power with less friction. But I suppose it all depends on what metals are actually used. These bearings may run a groove on the cylinder walls or they may wear into the cylinders along the ring groove…
HIGH TEMP JB WELD!!! use that next! Ive held a spark plug into a cross threaded head on a subie, worked great
This is one of your best videos guys.
I agree with @Russell Smith and I'll add try adding the engine into a car and see if it has enough power to move the vehicle. How long the O rings last for will the question but I believe it will make for a great experiment. Guy's that was an 107% success. Great video guy's!
Yes continue with this experiment please I would like to see this through
Best way to try out how long is last if you leave the original oil ring,middle the original piston ring and the first ring made from heat resistant silicone rubber o-ring. They are heat resistant up to 350C for 10000hour or more. I dont know how much Celsius in the combustion chamber, but the fuel and the intake air probably cooling enough and the micron oil film layer prevent from burning or get damage. I believe you could drive with it thousands of kilometres without any problem.
One piston with leather for rings, one piston with ball bearings for rings, one piston with silicone rings and one with high density rubber for rings. You might set a new and cheaper precedent for the DIY garage mechanics out there!
Ball-bearings with race in place of oil ring would be very interesting.
Try the rubber ring on the lowest point and then the standard rings above it. Less rubber to pinch and twist and also allow a little less grip upon installing the pistons and it should last a long time just used to seal up compression and oil passing through. The standard metal rings will protect the rubber from burning out in the long run.
I can't believe rubber piston rings had 120psi of compression after running and revving for a while. Amazing!
I’m amazed that they didn’t melt away!😂👍that’s insane! I call that a success!
Old Packard motors used tempered oak pistons with leather rings.. yep!
Another great show, you have become one of my favourite channels, keep it up and keep em' coming lads!
'I'm fairly sure no-one has ever tried this before' Yep, that's Garage 54.
Neoprene, or Chloroprene rubber, was the first synthetic rubber developed commercially and exhibits generally good ozone, aging and chemical resistance. It has good mechanical properties over a wide temperature range.
Neoprene resists degradation more than natural or synthetic rubber. Additionally, the material resists burning better than exclusively hydrocarbon based rubbers, making it appropriate for fire retardant applications. .
Try to confirm that oil is not entering the cylinders from upstairs - valve stem seals/ worn valve guides, i'd like to see results of 1st and 2nd rings being O-ring seals and an oil control ring
the rubber expands a lot when heated, the channel must have a free space for expansion
Great videos you put out very educational thanks for posting 👍 from Tennessee USA 🇺🇸
Yes try a oil ring and 2 rubber rings and do something to prevent the rubber rings from twisting.
"1 and 4 join the party at higher revs" I like the way he put that 😂
Wonderful experiment but it's my opinion that the Pistons got so hot because they wasn't able to transfer their heat to the cylinder walls that the engine started to pre ignition before the spark occurred just a guess
AWESOME! But it will be great test retaining rig of silicone, "U shape" with internal spring. It will hokd more pressure from the compression time.
you should run it with 2 stroke oil.
Amazing fireshow on the first engine start!
I believe it is about thermal expansion of rubber rings , also you may consider that rubber by time will swallowing oil and get bigger in size , this is why it starts fine and after a while it stuck with cylinder walls , I believe if cooled properly it will not stop running.
If you revisit this again..
Buy the square cut o-ring seals...
Or buy Teflon hi temp plastic seals/wear rings like the same on a hydraulic cylinder ❤❤❤❤
Great video guys . Liked this one a lot .
this looks like it would work loverly in a low temp low rpm motor!
try some different rubbers! see if you can find one that works even better
maybe setup a motor properly with full cooling system and watch the temps I think its doing something interesting to the piston temps as it might be insulating the pistons and causing them to cease and not the rings themselves so maybe look at skiming the pistion diameter to see if it runs better
Try putting two rings in each groove of the piston. Three grooves; two oil wipers, two compression rings each other groove. Rotate them 180 degrees on each groove.