Sonic Has Gone Stale - The Style That Overstayed Its Welcome
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
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Sonic... has gone stale. After reusing the same model for just about 17 entire years, Sonic's lack of variety in the stylization department has me feeling extremely bored of the character. This stylization of Sonic has overstayed its welcome. What is this 17 year old model? Why does SEGA keep using it? And what does this mean for the future of the series? We discuss all this an more in today's episode!
Shoutouts to Gryz and Mike for their awesome custom Sonic models!
You can find them here:
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---Table of Contents-----
0:00 Intro
3:21 What is Sonic's Design?
5:10 History of The Modern Sonic Model
12:50 The ROAST of The Modern Sonic Model
16:16 A New Sonic?
17:53 Final Thoughts
19:39 Conclusion
20:06 Outro
20:45 End Screen
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Let me know what you think about SEGA reusing this same Sonic model for the past 17 years. Would you rather see something fresh for this next game or are you fine with this same stylization of Sonic?
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hi chaomix
Something new
14 years
Fnaf
This is exactly how I feel after looking at the same model for the past 15 years. I see every single thing in it that bothers me and the time we spend with it just magnifies those tiny things that piss us off.
I would love to see something new or even just some kind of major update or change in some way, or even just more 2d art again, ANYTHING.
The problem is that he's so unexpressive. The 3D model they are using needs to be updated. There is no reason his posing and expressions should be so static.
My guess on why Sega keeps reusing the some render is because of the fanbase, Sonic has gone though so many changes over the years that the Sonic Fanboys are acting like Star Wars Fanboys. Richard Kuta for example hates how Sonic looked from Sonic Adventure 1 though today and that He wanted the Classic Sonic back (go watch His rant on Sonic 4 and how He wined about Green Eyes).
This biggest example of this was Sonic Boom and how Sega changed Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Eggman for this new spinoff series that Sonic having Blue Arms got one infamous LOLcow mad that Chris-Chan defaced a Sonic Boom display They had and pepper sprayed a gamestop employee over it.
It's sad that Sega has allowed the series to come to this, reused Promo Models from 2000s (the renders in Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations are good but I love TSR's renders more but Nibrocrock's renders are fu*king lite) because of how these Sonic Fanboys tend to whine over Green Eyes and Blue Arms.
Sega has a huge problem with its 3D animations. They’re lifeless.
I agree but they shouldn't change to the point we're it looks like sa2's expressions
Facts
@@FruityPatootie678 lol
I do want them to experiment with his design more, but considering how some fans flip out over something as minor as his quills being a bit longer in the Frontiers trailer or things like that, something most people probably wouldn't notice, that's probably never going to happen, given how safe Sega has been playing things for *years* at this point. That's pretty ironic when their mascot is (supposed to be) so full of attitude, style, and cocky boldness. Especially in contrast with Mario, a series that's also infamous for practically always playing it safe.
This kind of feels like a lose-lose situation, either you don't complain enough and they don't change anything or you complain too much and they get too scared to change anything.
Actually it wasn't the frontiers model it was the forces model the forces model had shorter quills and kind of a drastic design change
I *REALLY* hope that it’s a placeholder. I honestly think that other than Iizuka, none of the other sonic team staff really understand how cocky and cool sonic was before 2010. My problem with the model is not just the quills, but the fact sonic is still doing that same damn stiff pose he did in Forces.
A complete redesign would be okay, not a bastardisation of the current design.
I don't get the argument that Mario is this corporate casket of blandness. Aside from NSMB, they've constantly experimented with him even if the formula is the same.
Sonic Riders style is my favorite of all time. I personally would like to see more artistic stylized Sonic models in the future.
YAAAAASSS
Definitely
That is the fucking worst model
@@Ab-re7pv That's your opinion.
@@Ab-re7pv L opinion
I felt this way for a while, official Sonic renders don't look cool anymore. The vibrant artstyles, and different models aren't there anymore. All this bleeds into the games.
There haven’t been any “generic” renders of newer characters, either, neither in 2D or 3D.
I dont think the fact that they’re being consistent and using the same model for year isnt bad. Whats bad is how shallow his movment is after unleashed.
Even if unleashed used mocap sonic was able to emote in very unique ways such as when he prepares to fight the egg beetle. Theres still potential with what can be done with this model its just the more recent games its been in has been very boring not at all dynamic
I agree
I agree
That's what I was thinking! The model is pretty much perfect, it's just poorly optimized. Except that lower lip. I hate that thing.
I agree
Your right. With a few of the correct tweaks sonic should be as life like as adeventure 1 and 2 and boom. Tweaks like his top quill on the top of his head being covered by his other quills.
Those fan models are insanely good. They’ve brought that signature style back that Sonic needs. I don’t get why Sega chooses to ruin him with every new game especially Forces
It just truly baffles me how one fan can make a better render and idle animation than an entire team. Just how.
@@xeno4693 Because the fans actually have a passion for the character. They’re not using him for money.
@@downloadableram4212 or trying to change up characters to appeal to the mainstream gamers complaints
@@downloadableram4212 You can still have passion for something while making money off of it. The only problem is that SEGA seemingly lack of passion and lust for just money out of Sonic now
@@BJSolar02 That’s what I meant.
I loved the Unleashed look when it was brand new, but I think we're long overdo for something new. I want Sonic's expressions and poses and animation to feel lively again. There's so many cool art trends I'd love to see Sonic take a spin at.
heh...spin
*overdue
Like generations
Agreed. What I hate the most are how his eyes and muzzle don't match up anymore-- the muzzle is now almost entirely covering the bottom corner of his eyes in an "m" shape, especially when he smiles. It even made it into Smash Bros.--look at his render from SSBU. Sure, it's not the same render as this one, but it took cues from it. His muzzle and eyes bug the hell outta me lol. It's like either his muzzle was shortened or his eyes were made wider, but regardless it now looks like jamming two different pieces of a puzzle into one another instead of two that were meant to go together.
Another thing I don't like are how some characters (especially if they're depicted as younger) have center mouths. I know it's meant to look cuter but it makes some characters look flat-out dumb, like Amy. Plus it's inconsistent all-around.
Sonic designs peaked with Ken Penders.
@@sketchsskotch1073 Sonic's everything peaked with Ken Penders
(But in all seriousness, my favorite Sonic design comes from a fangame called Sonic Storm, Sonic's model there is insanely cool)
@@thefurry7165 Funnily I've always wanted a PS1 styled Sonic model, doing the same thing as like Megaman Legends, where they used sprites for the faces and mouth expressions instead of trying to make the model do the expressions.
@@sketchsskotch1073 actually SEGA did that with Sonic R and Sonic Jam: Sonic World (a "prototype" of Adventure in Saturn)
@@sketchsskotch1073 Sonic Rush?
If it was animated like the Unleashed model, I wouldn’t mind, but you brought up some really valid criticism that my opinion on the model has changed. With some renders, I always thought something was off, but could never put my finger on it, and lo and behold, you pointed them out.
The quills are shorter
Lmao you really gave a big fat middle finger to Twitter by tripling down on dissecting and criticizing modern Sonic’s design. Great video, dude.
What happened with twitter now?
forreal. i respect this a lot
The Sonic fandom on Twitter makes me want to eat grenades
Especially with how docile and accepting they were of forced infinite lives in widescreen mode for Origins
@@RandomizationShow forced infinite lives? are people THAT bad at video games?
Yeah, modern Sonic just looks... bleh. So sterile. I really liked it at first, but I think they should have let it go after Generations (would have been a nice symbolic send-off to the Modern model, given the theme of that game). Another great video, Chaomix!
@@brickfilms1483 from the look if you you look like you were born in 2008
I didn't know you guys were Sonic fans!
I feel like the current modern model doesn't capture the personality sonic has in the adventure artwork though, it looks more.. just sort of weird really, it eminates the vibe of the yknow, modern sonic personality we all hate.
What the hell is a yu-gi-tuber doing here?
You mean post Adventure? Or post-Classic? I feel like as time goes on there are even more eras to take into account.
You can't deny that Sonic's design is unique. When he smiles at you he gives you this sort of confidence.
True
Is “confidence” a euphemism for something?
Your avatar looks like someone tried to make Frisk as a Mii
@@ThatDanFox it's an old Mii I made back years and years ago.
I've never really minded the current model, I've personally appreciated the consistency since everything around Sonic is constantly changing. I can definitely see the frustration however and wouldn't be opposed to a new (preferably good) Sonic design to shake things up.
To me it’s not the model it’s the animations that I hate
@@BUBBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE same, but I’m sure the model can help the animation to look more charming.
Tbh there isn’t even any consistency when you REALLY think about it because the model they’ll use in CGI or renders isn’t even the in game model lol. Not to mention them slowly making him a lighter blue or shorter limbs to appeal more to “classic” fans
I think the reason why They stuck with it is because the Sonic Fanbase is so split on opinions, Sonic has seen many changes over the years from Short quills, short pudgy and Black eyes to Thinner, lankey, long quills and Green Eyes I see Modern Sonic as more of an evolution of Sonic since 1998 and I think They should just tweak it up abit, No Blue Arms like what Sonic Boom did keep the iconic nature of the character
Keep what made Sonic Sonic but just give Him fur texture and quill texture, Mario got texture upgrades since Super Mario Odyssey and Mario's design has remained consistent since Super Mario Bros. in 1985 yeah He looked different in Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Jr. and Mario Bros. but when making Super Mario Bros. Nintendo found a design for Mario and stuck with it only tweaking the character up over the years.
Also give Modern Sonic fangs I always saw Modern Sonic with fangs since 1998, it don't have to be like Nack the Weasel's fangs but still
@@BUBBLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Yeah, I guess the biggest reason I can see for a model shift is the enhancing of character animation. Everyone's been so stiff for years.
Sonic used to be this cool guy who was always trying something new and always made an effort to by stylish even if it hurt.
Now he's just this smug kid that's always doing as little as possible thinking his simple presence is enough to be cool.
Old Sonic breaking his back to get a cool silhouette and striking pose, new sonic literally just standing there with his arms out while inside a ring for extra... Extra jazz I guess?
JERK!!!!!!!!😠😠😭😭😡😡
The "smug kid" description reminds me of all those failed Sonic clones from the 90s: Oscar, Awesome Possum, Bubsy, Outback Joey, Bug! on Sega Saturn, Gex, Chuck Rock, WIIIIIIILD Woody, Socket the Time Dominator, Radical Rex, Rocky Rodent, Jazz Jackrabbit, Dynamite Headdy, & Mohawk And Headphone Jack.
Sad that Sonic ended up becoming(or rather, turning back into) a smug mascot with attitude like those clones were.
It seems like Sonic fans will never be completely happy with the franchise or agree with each other... People are saying the exact opposite: that Sega is always trying new things with the franchise and dividing the fans instead of sticking to a formula and improving it. For the design, I don't know why you would want a change, it's perfect as it is. Mario has had the same model for a long time and I don't think anyone is complaining about it.
But hey at least we've got the Sonic Boom and Sonic Movie redesign for the "spin offs"..
@@nouky3980 I think the designs perfect!
@@nouky3980 Almost every main line Mario game has a distinct artstyle and a different model. 64 Mario has a children's toy clay look, Sunshine has a bright water color inspired pallet and longer proportions, Galaxy has a much deeper and cinematic look to play up the Space epic vibes it's going for, and odyssey bring Mario closer to his 64 stubby proportions combines with excellent texture work and animations for a more modern yet retro inspired look.
Sonic on the other... well you already watched the video so there's no need to beat a dead horse.
Kinda off topic, but I've always thought it's weird that classic sonic is depicted as a lighter blue nowadays even though he's always been the same darker blue as he still is since sonic the hedgehog 2
My thoughts exactly
@RuanXel but more often than not, he was that darker blue
Yeah if they wanted to color him a different blue, why not use the lavender blue that was ACTUALLY used in the games instead of a made up color
must be a callback to the sonic CD opening
I kinda wish his current model had more noodle-like limbs and proportions like in the early uekawa art. I think it fits him more since Sonic’s original design was inspired by rubber hose characters
Crash 4 does that style perfectly in both art and animation so it's not like they don't have the capability to do it in 3D.
To do that they should animate him more like a cartoon than a person.
I never understood the argument that "oh why do you want the model changed? Don’t you want consistency?" Like, in what world does wanting consistency mean wanting the same thing over an over again. Imagine if Mario, a series notorious for playing it safe, was using the same model from 2005. That would be ridiculous
No need to imagine, most of this whining applies just fine even to the "changing" Mario models, he is just as "stiff" or non-stiff as in 1998. The difference is, which fans have the capacity to go to OTHER franchises when they want change, and who are becoming crusty boomers complaining that their fave doesn't work as a one-stop-shop.
Just the same as all the "good sonic games" that SEGA refuses to publish, when people describe them its usually "this game but with sonic" or "that game but with sonic". "A REAL Mario crossover". A new racing game. Just pointlessly limiting your experience to one IP and calling consistency in that IP a "staleness" with whatever BS excuse for it THIS is attmepting to be: 18:02
MAYBE the real corporate BS is that there's a new Batman every 5 years, but Golden Age batman isn't even AVAILABLE is somebody wants that? Because wahhh, stale. That's the actual CASH GRAB.
Well, to be fair, Mario's design has overall basically not changed at all since 2005 or even earlier, since just the Gamecube days in general (besides Melee which used his N64-era render look). His in-game model has of course gotten higher-poly over time and Mario Odyssey added some realistic textures and stuff and a couple other modifications to it to fit Odyssey's art style and increase expressiveness, but other than that one game Mario's design has basically remained the same. (Honestly, I'm fine with that though, he looks perfectly fine and it is perhaps his most recognizable and iconic look followed maybe by 8-bit SMB1 Mario.)
It'd be friggin Kingdom Hearts.
Mario used different models and renders in 64 era too. Mario's design has begun to be established and looked the exact same since Sunshine, yet no one thought it got stale.... Idk why everything always gotta be an issue with Sonic.
@@precieux6303 cuz Sonic fans are 10x more passionate than Mario fans. Mario is vanilla and Sonic is like, rocky road or something.
The two models shown at the end really do highlight the problems with the current model. I personally really like the Riders model, it's super expressive and doesn't give him that constant side-mouth that looks good in some cases but bad most of the time. The movie model has also warmed up on me greatly, and I wonder if it could influence a potential "two-eyed" Sonic for the future. I love the mono-eye, but it's started to look more and more weird, especially with the problems the current model has. (It also just makes him look a little weird next to the other characters that have essentially the same core shape but two eyes.)
The eyelid thing kind of rubs me the wrong way, too. What happened to shaping the brow to show emotion? Remember how expressive the characters looked when they were sad even in games like Sonic Heroes? From 2002? We've gone DOWNHILL since then IMO.
Unleashed has good expressions though
Just goes to show how lazy they’ve gotten
I think the real problem is that they dont make Sonic expressive, not the model itself. They could change up the model and still project a boring portrayal
It's both.
gah, I wish sega would try a cel-shaded style for sonic similar to something like Sly Cooper or jet set radio. I feel like an in game sonic with chunky expressive lines could really stand out from the crowd of rehashed unleashed models.
That’s where Shuffle comes into play. While some may have mixed feelings on his model in the game (mainly the cutscenes), I personally adore it and I just think that it could work.
Heck, even limit his frame count, similar to GGXrd.
@@austinreed7343 Don't forget that Strive did the same thing.
@@silverboltscrapper
Exactly. Cel-shading + limited frame count with minimal tweening + black chunky outlines = a great Sonic aesthetic.
You read my mind. In my opinion, a Sonic game should pop and evoke the same sweet style from the artwork before the modern era. That'd look fantastic.
Yeah, even before this whole drama about the quill size pointed this out recently, I've felt burned out with Sonic's design for a while now. I subconsciously found myself buying fan-made Sonic merch like posters, figures, and T-shirts because the fans stylized the art to look soo damn cool. Whereas the official Sonic merch uses the exact same renders over and over that I just couldn't bring myself to get any of it. It's only now that I realize that it was because of the bland model.
I personally feel that we are in need of a new change. Just imagine if Sega came out with a new-looking model like the ones shown off at the end? They'd be selling piles of merch from that alone, so it's a braindead executive decision to just keep it the same without innovation.
Even if the forces model isn’t my favorite out of the modern Sonic designs, I am mainly bothered by the lack of animations in Forces. If Frontiers fixes this issue then I can roll with the short quills. I don’t really blame Sega for reusing certain aspects since any video game company will do so if it means cutting corners. If Sega is putting less effort into the design then they are more likely putting more effort into the levels and gameplay.
I dont think sega will have a drastic redesign with sonic but i hope that they try to slowly ease into an overall more cartoony and stronger look.
Agreed
Lmao, I LOVED the analysis at the end. It really is the small things that can make the difference between a design looking stylish and inspired or just "Hey! lets just make this thing as 3D and realistic as possible!" Seriously tho, if the butt brow was sanded down and that weird uncanny bottom lip was just a cool simplistic smirk or grin like in Uekawa's art, Sonic would look so much sleeker.
I don't mind the model itself, but as you said, there is so much room for improvement. This is the Sonic I was introduced to as a fan, and because of my OCD, it's comforting to see that not a thing is out of place... however...
You are absolutely right about his posing, eyebrows, and animation. Anybody who's ever done ANYTHING worth doing should be able to tell you that the last 10% of your project always takes 90% of the time you spend on it, assuming you're doing it well and giving it the love it deserves. I think Sonic as a character deserves our love, and if Sega deserves our money, they'll admit to this as well. Just try and make yourself look angry without moving your eyebrows. It don't work. We have the technology to easily add this kind of animation back into games. If it hasn't been done already, I'd like to see some mods where people add it back themselves. Even if it's just the idle animations.
I write fanfiction. As a writer, I feel that one of the most important things to keep in mind while writing is consistent character traits, i.e. personality and motives. Imagine if Sonic was Tails; would his personality change? No. If Sonic were a sky-blue lion with neon green markings, it would still be him if his personality remained intact... (just thought of Unleashed). If you're a fun-loving, justice driven dude with a serious addiction to getting stuff done, and there's a big bad guy trying to blow up your planet, the last thing you're gonna want to do is stand around talking to the mooks like some string puppet. I'm not an animator, but my Sonic is almost always doing something while he talks. And when he is talking, he's almost always saying the fewest words and taking the shortest time to do stuff. If he's gonna be wasting time, it's gonna be with a chilidog on a snowboard while running from an avalanche.
TL, DR: I don't care what Sonic looks like so much. It's what he does that makes him who he is.
The art in the IDW comics makes this design look so good and expressive. Frontiers in recent showings has proven they're working a lot on expressiveness but I'd still kill for animations half as energetic and loose as the prerenders in Shadow.
I agree with the video. I feel like Sega got really scared of the Sonic franchise in 2006, for obvious reasons. The vitriol around that game, that even doomed the next one regardless of it's quality, I can believe that Sega has wanted Sonic to die out, and it would have happened were it not for this obsessive fanbase. So Sega just kept dragging their feet forward until today, and the result is this staleness...
So as for the next game... They could be inspired now, by both the movie and the paradigm shift we-re in, to go back to the drawing board and make a real game. At least that's the P. R. they're giving us. I hope so, but we just have to wait and see. It sucks being in the dark, but the game will come out
Chaomix with the based takes as always, Sonic's personality and style is the main reason this character was created and became popular, striping him away from that only hurts the franchise. It's good to see people like you talk about this, especially after the hate you got on twitter, insted of getting salty like most people did, you double down in a peaceful and beatiful matter and made this great video that shows all our frustation as fans of this series. Keep up the good work
Sonic Twitter is probably the most toxic group of positivity vampires in the whole fanbase. Seriously, all they seem to ever do is shill for Sega and defend all terrible moves and decisions they've taken in recent years in regards to Sonic.
@@inendlesspain4724 not really
@@sonicthehedgehog1606 You're right, it's not just Sonic, it's all fandoms on Twitter lol
@@inendlesspain4724 that's better
@Minx Vania I really don't approve of that. Good lord what's wrong with my generation 🤦🏾♂️
It's sad that this character gets treated the way it does.
He could be like a 1000 times better.
Sega done goofed
The unleashed model has always been my favorite model. It was the last one to really convey Sonic’s personality in motion. Cool and collected but not overly cocky while still keeping some squash and stretch so he felt cartoony as he should be. The unleashed model to this day imo is one of the most well done models, it’s nice and polished but isn’t overdone and doesn’t feel as rigid as forces. Idk beginning with colors the quality of sonic has gone down the toilet. Sega holds the hand of classic Sonic and constantly plays it safe, but hey at least paramount is doing something right and people love it.
I really agree with you. I don't know if they even necessarily need to make a whole new model, but they should make some BIG tweaks to it. I mean, the in game model isn't even consistent with the CGI model for Frontiers. And they really need to bring back Sonic's noodle arms and legs! He looks way too stiff these days!
Also, it's ironic that when the model was first used in 2005, it was too detailed to be used in game, but now its graphics and look are becoming out dated and are barely even on the same level as Mario's model from Odyssey.
I’ve never played Odyssey but I like the way Mario looks. It’s cool that his overalls are more designed and we can see every strand of his brown hair. I wonder if having sonic have the detailed spines from the movie would work in a game.
@@havenisthebest99 You have the exact ideas that I do! Not only was Mario more detailed in Odyssey, but he was also animated so well. I think Sonic would really benefit from an update to his model and animation similar to what Mario got. The detailed spines would look awesome with Sonic's game design, and would fit so well with the realistic art style they're going for with Frontiers!
THIS. Instead of making a whole new model from the ground up just modify what they have now to make Sonic more expressive and animated. The point about how the CG model and in game is the bigger problem, it just creates inconsistency. They could simply take the Unleashed/Generations model, tweak it so they can put him in more dynamic poses and we'd be good. Like his shoes can still look the same but slightly extend it and if he's running they could stretch his shoes to give it the "hot dog" look. The solution isn't that hard to this problem.
@@jaysolaris9272 This
Thank goodness I'm not the only one tired of these models. They aren't objectively bad, just definitely have overstayed their welcome and are definitely the most bland in my eyes. Outside of the great fanmade models y'showed off, I honestly think Smash 4 and Ultimate's Sonic, while not perfect, does have some really good ideas for a newer Sonic model. While it's not as expressive as I'd like it to be, it's still significantly more expressive than the one used in most Sonic games within the past few years, most notibly when it comes to his shocked expressions when he gets hit. His brows actually move instead of just the eyebrow, and his gritted teeth looks more like something you'd see in drawn art with the sorta sharp edges to it rather than the sorta oval the modern models use for that same type of expression. Even the smirk he has by default is much more like the arrow smirk he's almost always shown with in most artwork rather than the weird one his current model has.
@@nickname2239 Brawl Sonic also had a pretty sweet color scheme that, while subtle, was a breath of fresh from the simple deep blue we'd been seeing around the time Brawl came out.
I like how stretchy SSBU Sonic is
I'm tired of mascot Sonic too. I never thought much of it at 1st but those fan redesigns of Sonic are SOOOO MUCH BETTER. I miss Sonic having attitude again and I definently noticed that too, how Sonic's eyebrow ridges are practically gone :/
I don't mind them using the same render it's the fact that the model lacks expressions in the animation. Marza cgi cutscenes goes to show how expressive the model can be and is PEAK Sonic imo.
Peak sonic huh
@@bls8959 just watch the Unleashed opening
@@slainredd4339The cutscenes look great, that’s out of the question. But shouldn’t the series do something else? It’s great that those cutscenes were so well animated, but I would appreciate something else even if it wasn’t as great. It’s like only eating chocolate, instead of trying out different flavors every once and awhile. Also, I’m pretty sure their using a different model in those cutscenes that was designed specifically for their animations. Either way I think their is more at fault than just the model. Sonic looks out of place most of the time, especially as Super Sonic. I just feel like they could do more with something new. I understand where your coming from though.
I wish for a new Sonic style again. The current one became overused and i wanna see something more exagerrated and with a bit more pizzaz if you know what i mean. I definely don't hate the new Modern design, but i wanna see something new.
Wait so why is he on your profile
@Ano de 2004 it was joke lol
Thank you for this. Sonic looks so lifeless now, his poses are so generic and I feel like he lost what made him special
"but you aren't allowed to complain! it's just the main character that we're going to be looking at for the entire game! and i personally like the design so it's okay and you're being petty, ungrateful, and entitled! stop discussing things!"
Sonic is like a bag of chips he had so much flavor then it lost it's flavor after 17 years
Sonic is like a soda: He had so much energy in him and then it fizzled out
@@ToaderTheToad true tho
I still say Riders, Boom (to an extent), and even SA2 had the best and most expressive models. If those 3 can somehow be fused together in Uekawa's style, just in 3D, that would be ideal. But they would need to risk going off model sometimes, which is fine by me.
The "stiffness" may be due to Sega's weird obsession with trying to mimic Mario's family friendly marketability imo. But it works for Mario because he's a short, simple, and pudgy everyman. Sonic is supposed to be a limber, dynamic, kinetic, freeform teen with a rebellious but charming edge. He needs to loosen up (literally) and not worry about trying to conform to generic mascot protocol by focusing on being unique.
Absolutely LOVE the Riders model
@@KStarPR the 06 model is my favourite, name any other sonic game where the quills are animated as smooth as 06
@@cakelayer My only gripe about the 06 model is that it has almost no way of expression through his eyes in the in-game model (Not just eyelids) but in pre-rendered cutscenes it does have that, and man, it looks so good in pre-rendered cutscenes. I love it
@@ToaderTheToad yeah, the in game animations are quite unfinished
Even Mario has had more changes with his design, more specifically whenever he gets a new 3D game. They give him more detailed textures and improved lighting while still keeping his many focal points roughly the same.
Textures are only due to hardware limitations though.
Imagine running Mario Odyssey textures on the Nintendo 64.
You'd get 1 fps at best.
(Bigger textures rely on both a higher resolution, and more video memory.
That's why the Dreamcast can do more than the 32X/ Saturn, or the Xbox Series X can do better textures than the OG Xbox.
Same goes fpr lighting and poly count too.
Fact is, his 3D model hasn't changed since Mario Sunshine. It's exactly as intended except now the hardware can utilise better lighting and resolutions, for more texture clarity.
Mostly because the mainline Mario series developed such a strong and near timeless artstyle that it's reached the point of ain't broke don't fix it status.
@@BlueEyedVibeChecker Saying his model hasn't changed since Super Mario Sunshine is actually completely bullshit. You literally just have to look at Sunshine compared to the direct next game to see the differences between the two. I can't even concede that the designs are the same because Mario wears short sleeves in Sunshine, compared to the baggy sleeves of Galaxy. I guess you could say that the designs are mostly the same aside from the sleeve differences, but that isn't the topic here, that's on the models, and saying that Mario is using the same model from Sunshine in Odyssey is an outright lie.
Mario got a cool design update in Odyssey, and Crash got a new design update in Crash 4.
Why can't Sonic get one in Frontiers?
Cuz sonic fans are nuts
I feel like animation is just as important if not more than design. a design can look really good on paper but if it’s animated lazily it will look lifeless no matter what (modern sonics design in a nutshell). this is one of the reasons why i like the boom designs so much. they are actually expressive.
I think the problem lies less with the model and more with the animation
I think the closest we ever get to Sonic's new design is his version of Sonic Boom.
Can't believe they gave him blue arms.
Movie Sonic has blue arms too
I don't see any problems with the blue arms as it fits Sonic's design in Sonic boom well
I mean, blue arms don't look bad.
@@troxel3599 Yeah. Maybe because I'm just acting exaggerating or something but I never have that much of a problem.
I think it's cool that Sonic has a bandanna on his neck.
Imo the Boom design was his best design since the adventure games. Unironically.
Man, I'm glad you made this video. I said the EXACT same thing after seeing the Frontiers teaser. It's BEYOND time to redesign Sonic. Gaming hardware producing environments as detailed as they can now make this version of Sonic literally look like he's made out of clay. You can look at what Nintendo does with Mario for guidance, a simple thing like adding clothing materials textures go a LONG way when your character is in HD. An even more 1:1 example imo though is to look at what Insomniac has done with Ratchet and Clank... their character details are simply UNMATCHED, while still having similarly cartoony characters to Sonic. What makes it most frustrating though, that that Sega has the Movie Sonic model sitting RIGHT THERE to use... in fact, the exact reason they didnt use the gaming model in the movie (despite screwing it up at first), is because they said the gaming model wasnt able to be expressive enough (mainly because of the Uni-eye). I can't help but think how awesome it would look to has a sonic model with individual quills and gloves that dont look like theyre made from his skin would look.... As a matter of fact, I can just throw on the movie, we already know what an upgrade to his model looks like.
The problem is that nobody will fucking animate him with actual expressions. Ever.
The models were old in SA2, but I LOVED the expressions. Please Sega, animate the blue boy more fluidly.
Why are you bullying our beloved blue rat!
He wiped out my entire clan
@@chaomix that's fair
@@chaomix reasonable
Man that part where you roasted the current model was so cathartic for me lmao. I have always found it incredibly bland and missed the sense of style the character used to convey
I always wanted them actually to make some kind of cel shaded Sonic game because it's probably my favourite look. I think it also allows for more interesting designs with the characters rather than the same old stuff we have seen for a long time.
well this explains why sonic prime looks so fresh
Considering the fact that we're dealing with fans who have complained about the most nit picky of things, like Sonic being a slightly different shade of blue, or having green eyes and long limbs, can you honestly blame Sega for being reluctant to change Sonic's model?
Sonic fans get hot tempered when they spot the slightest difference in Sonic's design. Sega can't win no matter what
Facts, no one is happy
You don’t have to like these things, it’s a matter of subjectivity. I would’ve loved it if they did something else. Your never going to get a consistent opinion on anything ever. The mere concept that you think this is a Sonic exclusive is silly. No one considers this a major complaint we just don’t like it. It’s that simple
@@Ismatic1906 I mean yes, it's not a Sonic exclusive thing. There are always going to be petty fans of anything who complain about the most pettiest of things. However, it just feels like every time this happens with Sonic, Sega seems to listen to these petty criticisms, they tend to listen, and change the series, not because it benefits the series in any meaningful way, it's simply to appease these whiners.
@@bowmaj8666 It’s not petty to dislike something you don’t care for. It’s petty to harass people, but people are allowed to say how they feel. That’s the entire point of social media.
Well, y'know how the saying goes: "You don't fix what's not broken"
15:58 One thing I also think is bad about the current model that you didn’t mention is that his mouth is always on one side even while facing forward. It’s especially egregious in this scene, he tries to make a shocked expression but because his mouth is stuck on one side (and not even the side facing the camera) while facing forward, it just looks ridiculous. The older models had the right idea to have the mouth centered and switch to the side mouth only when it needed to. I think it helped him emote properly and be very expressive, especially with the Boom and Adventure 1 models. Do you agree?
Since Generations we haven't seen a substantial change in the character (leaving aside Boom which was a failure and the movies which are not, well, games).
The biggest change the characters have from game to game are the shoes.
Following the comparison with the jumping man, Mario has gone from looking "basic", in the last main game of the franchise they wanted to change a little and evolve the design.
You can notice the denim texture of his overalls, the metallic buttons, the seams of his cap, the shine of his eyes and even the hairs of his mustache.
Mario with so much detail doesn't make it weird to see him in a semi-realistic environment like New Donk, (more than that, the point is that it's WEIRD).
But Sonic being a blue plasticine ball in a HYPERREALISTIC environment gives mixed messages to the viewer.
Come on, Mario has more hair than SONIC the anthropomorphic animal!
In Frontiers they used THE SAME MODEL of Forces. When Forces had a much more cartoonish style than the semi-realism that Frontiers has. And it doesn't fit.
We're already in the 9th generation of consoles, there's no excuse.
Even Crash himself in his last game with his more "plastic" CGI style, you can notice the hairs on his body, because he's an animal.
Even in GameCube the StarFox characters had more fur textures. Or in the more modern, Ratchet in their latest game is basically an animated movie character.
But Sonic still looks EXACTLY THE SAME for more than years. That yes, "if it ain't broke don't fix it" but that doesn't justify not wanting to improve the design. Or just plain and simple VARIATE it a little bit.
Again, Mario does not change its design, it remains the same, but it keeps changing and adding details to the design. In Wonder, they used a much more cartoonish style than semi-realistic animated for Odyssey.
Taking more of a plasticine-like look.
Even Sonic himself in Superstars understood that he needed an artistic cohesion with the characters and the world, which Frontiers is unable to understand.
I've had issues with the character models they've been using since unleashed for a while now, but it felt like no one really cared until they "reused the forces model".
I'm glad someones talking about the bigger picture now.
Kinda want to see the other character models roasted now too cause thinking back I think Tails took the biggest hit for me with his modern design, I used to like him a lot more until they sucked all the charm out of him and I came to terms with the fact most games are "Sonic only" now.
Can’t wait to see how pissed Reddit and Twitter get about this video. You’re absolutely right about this one, Chaomix, and I really hope Frontiers actually fix things by the time it releases.
Implying that there's a time Reddit and Twitter AREN'T pissed?
This is implying that Reddit and Twitter aren’t making valid counter arguments.
@@aidanshowers8366 Which they wouldn't, being that it's Reddit and Twitter.
@@blackdot105 i agree with Twitter, but I haven’t seen enough of Reddit either maybe could is better choice of words.
@@aidanshowers8366 The Sonic Reddit seems a bit more chill about that kind of stuff, (Though it's probably because they just post memes all day rofl) though I can't say for Reddit in general
I mean.
When MARIO, the happy man with "no personality" had more character not just in terms of expression but in design for Odyssey.
With hair details, clothes textures and more and more... And Sonic is just a blue ball of clay that runs fast.
The Boom redesigns were sort of an attempt to remedy this. They had easier proportions and more expressive rigs, and the animation in that game turned out great. The rest of it, on the other hand...
Man I remember how unenthusiastic I felt when I first booted up Sonic 4 and I saw that boring uninspired render staring back at me with his motion-tweened finger wag. And that was 12 years ago
We have never, EVER gotten more expressive 3D Sonic faces than SA1 EVER. Like there is some stuff that is pretty good, but SA1 is just insane. Like when did you ever see Sonic sad like how he is in SA1 in a modern game. Never. And some of his faces are just legendary. Nothing will top it.
One thing I'd add to this discussion is ST's insistence using the side-mouth for cutscenes.
With the possible exception of Unleashed, it's always looked incredibly awkward and it's quite clear the animators can't be bothered to tweak it's placement based on the camera angle half the time (leading to derpy-looking shots where Sonic's mouth is facing AWAY from the camera). A centred-mouth just looks more natural for dialogue and they wouldn't have to concern themselves with constantly flipping it!
It just goes to show that things that look acceptable in promo renders, don't always translate well when animated.
I disagree. I always thought that centered mouth Sonic looked weird, far from being "natural" for dialogue. He looks weird when talking with a centered mouth.
Sonic nowadays kinda of reminds me of the "New"era Mario stuff, safe and stale
At least he is at an better state than Pikachu, who is stuck on the same pose for 10 years
Not really on board with the overall negative view of the current model, but I can agree that animation and expression-wise, things could be better. The stiffness is a legit complaint and I too wish there were more action scenes that had impact and dynanacism.
I like the current model and don't share your nitpicks about it. Am I opposed to a more stylized design? No, I am not. I wouldn't mind us getting more spinoff games with different styles like Battle or Riders. A slightly updated version of what we have now isn't an issue either and the first fan render is my preferred one out of the two you showed.
I simply don't have the loathing you have towards the current design is all, however, you expressing your opinion is what this platform is about, so good on you.
I will defend to death Boom's designs. It's not like Crash with the "Titans/ Mutants" duology.
Where they totally just ruined the franchise for years. Just they updated the designs a bit, keeping the design choices but giving them more depth.
Sonic was no more a ball with smaller balls for hands and feet and noodles for extremities, but a slender cartoon hedgehog. Emphasizing his speed.
Other than his personality and Gameplay in Rise of Lyric and Forces being poorly and terribly done,Sonic's Design(other than Boom) I actually love of the Character,the only exception of a different Sonic I love in the Classic and Movie Version,the ONLY way it could work to make Sonic different if they give him a Customized his Gloves,Shoes,and many more with no Avatars since they are Banned for like in Sonic Games Permanently.
?
I like the current model over the classic one. But I’m not against them changing it.
I really miss the Previous Model back from Unleashed, ever since Lost World Sonic now its a bit shorter and his quills are shorter too
You gotta understand, Sonic is getting old and his powers that Eggman gave him are wearing off very slowly.
I would love if they made new models based on Tyson Hesse's artwork, like the team sonic racing overdrive animation. Not too lanky, not too stubby, Sonic's quills aren't droopy. If they can also bring that amount of expression and body language to 3D, it would be perfect
I'm kinda bummed that sonic boom didn't do well it's a good update on the old design and make the character more expressive and easier on the animators. Sad it didn't stay as a alternative sonic
to be fair sega truly set them up to fail considering their deal with Nintendo and forcing the team in charge of boom to release it before it was done because of said deal
*When SEGA has made sonic fans happy with the bare minimum*
We definitely should upgrade Sonics model it won’t hurt guys chill
Alcohol hurts when you pour it onto an open wound.
Not all forms of "hurt" are bad, and some forms of "hurt" are necessary in order for some things to get better .
@@Orange_Swirl It's kind of like getting your arm stuck:
Yeah, it is going to hurt trying to get it out, but you're not going to sit there all day with your arm stuck, are you?
I'll be honest, I've been sick of this model long before now. Bring up consistency all you'd like, I call it stagnation. At least adjust his height and shoes once in a blue (lol) moon guys.
Honestly i just wish the cutscenes were more animated
That's my only problem
A smoother, and more cartoony design would be nice, but I think the higher problem here is the animation, this model is very much capable of looking great, being expressive, and for action scenes, the unleashed opening is a great example of this
something about sonic's "finalized" look has definitely started bothering me over the last few years, but i could never quite pin down WHAT. great video, i really hope we start seeing a more experimental sonic again at some point in the future
I totally agree with all you said here, total shame that our expressive blue boy has been reduced to such a boring, corporate look. I have a video on my channel showing what my Sonic model looks like in Sonic Adventure 2 if you're curious what it might look like in a game. Also thanks for the shoutout!
Imagine if they animated the Forces model like the Boom model. That's my ideal scenario.
Or they should just get rid of the forces model entirely bc its gut wrenchingly ugly
@@xeno4693 What makes you say that? I honestly like the Forces model because it fuses the designs of modern and classic, making a catch-all "Sonic" design. My only problem with it was that they didn't animate it well.
I absolutely agree. I think that this design for sonic looked amazing and very expressive in both sonic unleashed, and it’s promotional material. Like it seriously worked perfectly there, and I’d argue it’s the best sonic has looked in 3D. Too bad it’s only gotten worse since then, especially with forces.
I think it's time for a change up. Nothing super major like a complete redesign but just a fresher look. This is supposed to be a new era of sonic and his design should reflect that.
call me unoriginal but long quills and a darker shade of blue is what I want to see.
Sonic's design 100% matters. His personality that's conveyed through dynamic poses end expressiveness is a big part of why Sonic is a very appealing character and why people like him. Artwork for him was like this in the 90s and early 2000s so they should bring that back. The biggest problem with Sonic's current design is how lifeless he, however that doesn't mean there aren't any good aspects of the current design. If Sega does go make a new model they should just take the best aspects of his models through the years. Take the shoes for example, they can keep the somewhat pointy look they have now, but they slightly stretch it out to give that "hot dog" shoe look. Honestly as long as Sonic is animated, expressive, put in dynamic poses and feels alive I'm perfectly fine. The examples you showed in the video are great solutions on how to keep Sonic still having a modern look while also restoring some of the aspects that made him stand out whenever there was promotional artwork. I see where you're coming from and I do hope that the actual good aspects of Sonic when it comes to his design return, I just hope fans don't overcomplicate stuff like this anymore cause it's getting really tiring.
I do agree that Sonic needs better animation, but I don't blame Sega for not changing the model. This is coming from the same community who complained about Sonic's eye color, belt buckle placement, arm length, and how blue he should be after all lol
I like how chaomix's logo makes it look like their name is *chadmix* due to how the 'o' is stylized like a chao's head.
chaomix: This isn't a bad model by any means. In fact, I'd go as far as to say this is a pretty good model.
Also chaomix: Has an entire section roasting the model
"Modern Sonic" is no longer modern & it doesn't have to be anything extreme for it to be refreshing, even just more dynamic poses or cutscenes could help.
For those giving flack to people criticising the usage of Sonic’s Forces character model in the Frontiers trailer: your attitude is partially the reason why the fanbase and franchise are in this position today. It would be the equivalent of if SEGA recycled the ‘06 Sonic model in the Unleashed trailers, and if you thought the initial reaction to the Werehog was polarising then the ‘06 model would’ve driven people mad if it was in Unleashed.
one of the few comments here i agree with
I feel like sega has just gotten lazy and played it too safe with sonic. Would love to see a new model and more expression and movement.
Sonic frontiers made some changes to the sonic model and they finally gave him good expressions, hopefully they keep changing the model for the next games and for chaomix give him the hot dog shoes back
I'm glad to see other people feeling the same. Sonic's overall model and lack of animation severely shows the lack of budget in comparison to Unleashed. This character needs squash and stretch, to feel lively, like he could burst out of your screen. The fan models you showed are flat out AMAZING. So much personality coming out of them. I really hope we get a new model soon, one not based on that tired one we keep seeing reused. It makes Sonic feel stale.
I really prefer him being a bit lankier since his best ability is literally so having a bulky body is a no-go, I like his spikes being longer like in 06, though a shoe redesign slightly resembling the soap shoes with a mix of the hotdog shoes but the way of how he moves can be improved a bit
It's not only the design that need a refresh, Sonic Team as a whole needs to give their place to people who are actually competent and passionate about making games. The games have been so sterile for years now, it's really saddening
Because everyone complained back then too. Can't win, don't do shit
Oh no , I just realized , we've gone from blaming the characters to blaming the character designs to avoid the obvious.
Sega has no idea how to see the value in Sonic , he's just another credit card to them.
No wonder they sabotaged Big Red Button in such a catty fashion.
Casually mentioning , a year into development , that it's for WiiU and not PS4.
If you're going to replace Sega , next time you go for the head.
I'd kill for a new model, the model we have now has been milked to death and beaten for years.
Personally i would love a mix of the current design and the in-game shadow the hedgehog design, and as to the reactions, i think it's too early to go "sonic is doomed" etc but i do think that it's good to voice out criticism like chaomix said to help the devs change stuff while it's early to not lead to the sonic 06 and boom fate which is lack of time, and complaining ≠ criticism and vice versa
In shadow the hedgehog the model is from heroes tho
The face is the worst part for me. His muzzle looks weird which makes his eyes look weird. And can we get rid of the permanent mouth to the side? It only really works if you see him from the side and looks wacky from the front. The lack of expressiveness really hinders this model.
Edit: This is the first time I have heard that the long shoe art style has been dubbed "hot dog shoes" and I am deceased. 🤣
I do think the BOOM models work though.
Blue arms look more natural than suddenly fur's gone peachy arms.
And they aren't as bad as people say, case in point: Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, Blaze, Tails, Jet, etc.
It works, people just weren't used to it.
Honestly, I think I disagree with that notion. What I feel what was missing wasn't the lack of design. It was the lack of use of the design. (Via Sonics lack of idle animation in Sonic Forces) Take the Mario series for example, which Ironically did the same thing. Nintendo used the Gamecube model as the based for their games, and still do to this day. But its how they use the character model (Promo art/ Animations) Making it more expressive and full of life. Which is what very few companies are willing to do nowadays. You can have the most polished model in the world, but if you don't use it to your full potential it will pretty much go to waste in the long run.
They should use motion capture for cutscene’s again they look so much better fr 💯
Chaomix modern sonic actually looks cooler than classic sonic the reason sonic's character had terrible writing was because the writers of the colors era games didn't knew anything about the characters that just look about them in Wikipedia and base the character about what was in Wikipedia that's why sonic writing since colors was so bad Edit: Sega fired those writers so they won't be the writers of the franchise anymore
And who hired those writers? Nuff said...