I was taught as a teenager to use cheap white paint on the collector and cut it to length where the paint stops burning , always seem to add a bit mph and faster ET.
I'm addicted to your videos your enthusiasm is contagious. I have a 460 Ford built by an ex Roush mechanic. My intention was to stuff it into a 54 Ford coupe. A 54 was my first car and I stuffed a 390 in that one which barely fit with the flat exhaust manifolds. It was hot for the time. This 460 won't fit period unless I do a chassis modification and tube axle, basically a gasser, and I don't want that. Watching your 302 testing I became fascinated with their power potential. I have picked up 2 302s to build myself to get this project moving again. They wont have the wild hp of the 460 but they fit and probably will exceed the hp I had at 16 years old.
It's all about flow capacity of a given combination; in this case the 302 does not flow enough air for dual 3.5". The air speed slows too much at the over-sized/open-ended collector for proper scavenging effect. I would expect a dual 3" to gain low-end and mid-range power without any top-end losses. For this engine, a dual 2.5" is likely large enough. 3.5" would probably be perfect if it were to Y into a single exhaust. As for primary size, I doubt there'd be much noticeable difference between 1-5/8" and 1-3/4", other than the larger might help more at the top of the power band.
The only reason to use an 8.2" deck block is a 9.5" deck won't fit! Been there, done that!! You stroke and spin that little bi!@h all you want! Keep shooting 250 on it to fool it and ur gonna piss the guys off when they have to clean the track! Of course, you could get an aftermarket block! But WTF4!! A 351w block will take 800hp preped! The rod-stroke ratio is light years better, rods are better, you can make the same power 800-1000rpm sooner! You can shoot 150 on a cast piston Windsor 20 times a week! It'll be sitting there waiting on you like a Labrador Retriever!
Many years ago I lost my mufflers going over a railroad track, so because it was night I just used a hacksaw blade to cut them off entirely and drove like that until the next day. The sound was awesome but it was so gutless that I could not wait to get new mufflers on. And this was with pipes all the way back to the axle, just no mufflers. It blew my mind how much torque and fun mufflers added to that car. It was a mild Holden 308 with tri-y headers going into a twin 2 1/4" exhaust. That car really needed mufflers otherwise it was a dog.
Remember "Project Pro Tree?" He went from longtubes to shorties and ran the same time. I know its not the dyno. But i would think the E.T. would have been affected if he lost power...Granted it wasn't a high hp engine. My longtubes had a long life, 25+ yrs on a street car and they are SHOT! I have a old set of MAC 1 5/8" shorties (brand new) and 2 1/2" h pipe laying around that may work their way on just because...
I'm curious to see what the difference would be on a mild 355 sbc, (hyd flat cam or retro hyd roller) with stock exhaust manifold vs say a Hooker cast iron manifold vs short tube headers vs mid tubes vs long tube headers all running in to side pipes.
I love you videos! I'm learning so much. I'd like to see the results of a 3" collector extension on 1 5/8" headers. I run pacesetters on my 302 with e303 plus GT40 heads and Trickflow upper and lower with a 70 mm on EFI.
Same. I have the Hooker Comps on my 351w and they clear the power steering and trans nicely, but I'm wondering if a 3 inch extension might help my torqorinos or if I should just step up to a full 3 inch system. 50 lbs is potentially a lot to leave on the table.
G'day Richard. If you change the diameter of the header pipes, or the diameter of the collector pipes, without changing the lengths, there will be no change in the power output, over the entire RPM range. That is because the length of header & collector pipes are dependant upon a pressure wave which travels at the speed of sound, not the diameter of the pipe. The only thing that would affect the pressure wave is a change in the density of the medium it is travelling through.
I’m curious what the dyno shows between tri-y and long tube headers on the 302 carb engine. Currently building one and would like to know which would be better for fun hot Rodin street use. Any suggestions/tests you can share/do? Thanks love your videos
I think and know that going smaller on exhaust primaries,collector and overall smaller diameter with longer length would yield better/responsive lower to mid range. And the opposite for mid to top end gains. Everything & anything to do with air flow is a see-saw/teeter-totter effect. It's basic Bernoulli's principle... where there is high pressure=low flow and low pressure=high flow.
I thought this was going to be the one video that I already new the information you were going to share from watching an episode of engine Masters, I may be mistaken, But I don't recall them addressing timing changes, they probably did, fryberger & the Steve's are pretty darn bright. John Cougar said you better learn to play guitar, Elvis wiggled his junk, but Richards like oh yeah" watch me test son, booyah in your face!👏👏👏
@@richardholdener1727 yah" I know it wasn't, but they did testing as well on collector length, so I thought this time I was going to know what you were talking about before instead of after. I was taught as a boy you don't get something for nothing so I am amazed at the information# wisdom you share, being totally unbiased and not trying to sell a product. For me your Channel, is my favorite thing about the internet. Geez I sound like a stalker! I just like when people say what they mean, mean what they say and know what the heck they're talkin about, no ulterior motives purdy darn rare these days. Bravo
I would expect a 3.0" collector to be more than adequate for a 400 hp small block. With nitrous or boost, maybe not. But I wonder if NA torque would IMPROVE with 3.0", vs a 3.5"? Only you can answer that, Dyno Man.
3.5" collectors sounded pretty ridiculous for a 5.0l engine to me too, but I just chalked it up to "dyno header, no restriction is best" Hell, I'd be surprised if a 2.5" collector was restrictive to it below like 7k rpm.
@@jeffrykopis5468 I'm talking dyno comparison. Not looks. But as an example. My younger brother bought a gasser, 39 Chevy coup 327, built by my uncle's. The 327 had crome super comp hooker fender well headers and a 12 pack intake. I don't know what cam because we were both teens at the time and somewhat ignorant. I do know it was a solid lifter cam because I remember uncle Ed coming over and bitching at us to leave stuff alone and adjusted the valves again. Well, my brother didn't like the straight axle, and put a dropped axle and conventional headers on the car. At the strip the car ran slower. I know there is other factors and variables but the car was not as fast as it was.
I'd guess at that power level the smaller headers and smaller collector diameter wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. If I recall correctly they did a test on Engine Masters between 3 inch and 3 1/2 exhaust, and they didn't see much difference until the output started to push past 500 horsepower.
More midrange torque, and possibly quicker 60' times! Guess that 1/8 mile times would be noticeable quicker, 1/4 mile. ????. It's a much better street motor with smaller collectors!! Gotta do alot to that 3" stroke motor to make it forget its only5 liters with a 3" stroke!! Chunk it and get a 351w!!! 1/2" more stroke, 7/8" more connected rod!! Rod stroke ratios!!! Plus 5/16 " rod bolts versus 3/8" rod bolts!! 5 liiter motors are training wheels!!
@@ActiveDadsRule Depends on the build. 3" outlet is too big for sbc street cars. 2.5" all the way back with an H crossover, or even better (in my opinion) is 2.5" to a resonator with one 3.5" outlet then into one muffler. Nearly no back pressure if the muffler's selected properly.
Velocity increases in the longer pipes,more power,my theory is that if you ran both pipes into 1 with a scavenger collector it would boost torque in a big way,maybe not HP,it would be interesting to see the difference.That is why a X pipe works better than a H pipe,the X creates velocity.
Clear example of reversion due to loss in velocity. Even with the extention added. For that power per cylinder...id make a set of headers with 1.5 for the first step (blow down length), 1.625 for the next size then tri-Y it with 1.875 secondaries with probably a 2.25 or so throat expanding into 2.5 after that
Dumb question? Will adding a longer header collector work while using a set of shorty headers? I have an 86 Bronco with stock 5.0 (speed density) im going to upgrade to a MAF, but because of transfer case location. Exhaust options are limited. Shortys work best for fitment. Love the channel. Ive learned a bunch over the past year or so that ive come across it.
funny, your question at the end was in line with the question I was holding til the end of the video. Do you think that the length needed for scavenging is related to the diameter of the collector? I suspect, with a smaller collector, regardless of primary size, you'll get away with a shorter extension before you see a loss of scavenging because of how the pulses will reflect down a smaller tube.
@@richardholdener1727 My theory on it still hangs around the idea of the pulses reflecting down the pipe. I've run crude math on sound waves at given frequencies when building exhausts to help achieve certain tones I wanted to amplify or diminish, and I think this hinges on the same idea; you need a minimum length of pipe to see the exhaust pulse travel far enough to generate the negative pressure behind it and draw the following pulse out. If the pipe is too short the exhaust pulse just goes into open air before it can begin drawing the following exhaust pulse. Your missing 50 is basically the difference between having an expansion pipe on a 2-stroke, or not. The minimum length of pipe needed to see gains is probably proportional to diameter, but I have no idea what the relationship would be. My guess is an exponential curve.
I'd run a test to find how much less timing I could run without loss on the bottom and set the initial at that. Id' then set the distributor advance to bring the timing back in up to 6k rpm.
How long were the collectors after you added the slip on extension? I’m thinking the smaller diameter headers/collectors will help torque especially down low.
@@richardholdener1727 I don't know about data, but it seems fairly common knowledge when talking about small blocks. You should do a video on it. You do a great job of sorting this stuff out, and although I know it works (at least for the street) I'd like to see the numbers. Edit: as I got to thinking about it, I recalled the primary tube diameter should increase as your desired rpm increases. So a street header wouldn't look like a race header.
I'm gonna break the norm and maybe hurt feelings, but header primary tube size and collector diameter for this little 302 should have been 1.5" primaries, with 2.25" collector chokes. With properly designed, long bend radius primaries, and a tighter collector choke, I would expect this engine to have made at least 25 more hp and 25+ ft-lbs of torque. I understand there is never a perfect world, but most hot rodders put way way way too large of primary tube headers on their engines. Dyno headers are a great example of one size does not fit all. Not knocking Richard at all, his videos are great, and I'm sure he probably knows what I'm referring to.
@@richardholdener1727 I appreciate your comment, but *Properly designed* 1.5" stepped to 1.625" headers with a properly sized collector *will* make more power and torque across the entire rpm range.
Hey just curious and been watch for awhile now love the info you provide keep up the hard work man. Now I'm curious about the difference between the two firing orders between the older 5.0 and the H.O. 5.0 when and why did they change is there performance gains which is better and why. Got a 92 f150 5.0 with and mustang H.O. cam. Changed my fuel injection to fire with newer firing order. Would like to get more clarification on this can't seem to find a straight answer. Thanks
Could you really dial in the timing backing off from 35 degrees to 33 and seeing if the power increased. Then keep splitting the difference until you find the lowest total timing for the most power?
@@cammontreuil7509 That would work, but I'm asking hypothetically. I'm searching for proven theories, rules of thumb, so I know which way to go with changes.
@@cammontreuil7509 I've never had the opportunity to Dyno test any of my junk, I did all my testing and tuning at the drags, had a ball, and learned a lot. I don't have any hot rods at this moment, but I'm buying back one of my old ones next month. 👍
Have a question. What is realistic gain expectation from cam, longtubes, intake manifold on a ls baseline at 260 and made 320 after mods. Same dyno and same gear pulls?
Hey Richard...I am building a 98 non p.i. short block.with the p.i. heads and intake....watched all your 4.6 2 valve videos..I was looking to buy a pair of those comp cams.p.i.262's or the p.i.274's....im doing the engine exactly like you did......with the p.i.stuff...and a 150 wet shot.......NEED those cams man......I can't afford that $609.00 that comp wants for em......need a deal bad...plz can u help a fellow hot rodder ?
@@Lagrange1186 I was just playing around I knew what you meant by saying first I was just trying to be some what a little funny...lol...the times we live in today we need a little humor and laughter have a good night Brandon God bless...🇺🇸💯
My favorite collector was a flowmaster 3 to 2.5 reducer with a 14" megaphone welded to it. Really picked up the midrange on a motor with a 109 lobe centerline.
I would love to see different sizes of collector extension, and if they require different lengths. Narrower = shorter? Larger = longer? With ported subwoofer boxes, smaller ports will play lower frequencies for the same length as larger ports. Or, larger ports need to be longer to play the same frequency as a narrower port, until the airspeed becomes too high. Also, what about for road applications in states/countries with stricter laws. What happens if there is a bend in the extension, as if it needed to wrap around the transmission and clear the floorpan/chassis? Is there a difference in power between collector extension to an open to atmosphere dump, will you loose significant power if you have a high flow cat converter or muffler there, as long as the extension is long enough?
Dave vizard has a great exhaust video on his channel that covers a bunch of these topics. You should go watch it. Play it at 1.25-1.5x speed though because he talks pretty slow these days.
@@richardholdener1727 yes of course, the air in a sub box moves back and forth it does not "flow" but I still think it would be interesting comparison. I wouldn't run a dual 3" exhaust on a 302 with 350hp.
Nice work Richard. Wowza! Everyone likes to see a Phat mid range. 💨🔥I'm lucky to have two Ford engineer friends, both did the big Ford firing order HO engines One did the US short deck 8.2 inch development, the other the tall deck 9.2 inch 4.942 and 5.766 liter Cleveland's in Australia. Gregg and Bill found that good long tubes work great on a dyno, but when the engine bay is tight like it is on all unibody Ford's, Tri Y's give the edge. Non- symmetry seams to help the mid range. The chosen cam profiles that work are are the CobraJet, Super CobraJet style with 18 degrees extra exhaust lift, because all Ford's really suffer with compromised total combination exhaust flow. Once the whole exhaust pipe systems go on, the headers don't extract nearly so well. Dropping the peak duration at lash by 10 degrees can maintain peak HP and gain low end torque with a full 2.5 inch dual exhaust and craggy headers that look like they will hurt your 2500 to 3500 toque figures.
Great detective work on the collector diameter issue. From all the headers I have been around, 3 1/2 inch collectors are on big inch big blocks. Shoenfelt errored on the collector diameter. I would be interested in seeing a 2 1/2 " collector and keeping the same 1 3/4" down tubes. Later, if available, a set of 1 5/8" tubes would be interesting. Back in the day of Ford's Indy and GT40 engines, you'll see they used quite small collectors with megaphones. The GT40's shrieked and drove the Frenchies bananas as Ford destroyed all the competition. The Frenchies were still jealous of us winning WW2. Actually, the Frenchies hate all equally...Haha
guys i have a 94 mustang gt w/ the 302. i have an f-cam w/ ported stock heads and ported upper/lower intake. i was thinking about getting some aftermarket heads, pretty sure im gonna grab the afr 165's but unsure if they will work w/ my f-cam. also was thinking about the edelbrock performer II intake. any insight on this is much appreciated!
good point about making too many changes at once--you don't know which change caused your problem or your happiness. an interesting thing about the ignition timing is some might want the later one to give the piston less resistance coming up to TDC and cause a pumping loss, but you want a combustion design that hastens the burn before the exhaust valve opens.
It's interesting just how much timing can vary depending on your combination. My sbc liked 34 degrees. My brother's Pontiac liked around 40 degrees. My ford coyote stopped making power at just 27 degrees.
It's mostly about the flame travel efficiency of the chamber. Compact with lots of swirl need less timing. Big open chambers need more timing. Don Garlits has a funny story about when they first started running the 426 hemi at the request of Chrysler. They started running at the 34° timing they always ran on the 392, but it ran slower. Planning to destroy the engine with excess timing so they could go back to the 392, they ended up at 50° which dropped .8 sec and gained 27mph. th-cam.com/video/kdE693EHpNQ/w-d-xo.html
We used to see stuff like this back in the 90s with 2barrell circle track engines! When people put headers on different than the normal Kooks headers that almost all chassis builders normally used, sometimes they could make the engine a absolute turd 💩💩💩💩! We had winning engines that couldn’t even run in the top 5 with the other headers! But when we dynoed it (of course with our Kooks headers) it was making the same horsepower & torque as it did when it was new 🙄🙄🙄🙄! That poor bastard changed just about everything else on that car, ignition, water pump, fuel pump, fan, ect ect! Well we happened to go to the track that Friday mainly because this guy was saying it was the engine! Well that’s the first thing we noticed, was the nice new coated headers! That were supposed to make more power! Well when my boss asked where are the rusty old Kooks? He said they were in the trailer because he was selling them 🙄🙄🙄🙄! Needless to say, we stuck the old Kooks back on & it was a winning car again! That night! Well he ended up selling the nice new ones & that guy ended up running around the back of the pack, until my boss mentioned to that guy, hey you might want to investigate the length or collector on those, because they seemed to loose a shitton of power! Well he made a new customer immediately! 😂😂😂😂
Hey Richard....thanks for responding so quick when I ask if you had any p.i. cams for my 4.6 I'm building.....I was curious if you might know where I could find a centrifugal supercharger ..for the same non p.i. short block with p.i.top end...don't need brackets........just the head unit.
Using the exact same engine, head and cam I'd like to see what it does with the 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 stepped header (with 3 1/2 collector) and also 1 3/4 tubes with a 3inch collector because the collector length could be a problem when in the vehicle. Then put a full 2 1/2 & 3 inch exhaust on it. Seldom do we get to run an open exhaust unless it's on the dyno. Some tracks even have a noise limit that makes you use some kind of muffler.
I'm not so interested in changes to the headers but instead, how much of a difference is there when you have a full exhaust? Is there a benefit for the collector extension on a car? Does an H-pipe make a difference?
Hi I need help this is unrelated to this video this question is about your speed Secrets 350 over on Comp Cams you did The Beehive Springs the cam heads and so forth what was the cast numbers for the heads that you used on the vortec heads I hope you can see my message over here and I really hope somebody can help me out
@@richardholdener1727 okay no problem do you know do the Beehive Springs fit on any of the vortec heads and work like you did it in that video I'm not super knowledgeable I just want to make sure I buy the correct parts
I have hooker super comp headers and they're only 1.5" primary with a 2.5" collector, it's a 5.0 302 Ford but the chassis is the problem - 78 mustang 2
I was taught as a teenager to use cheap white paint on the collector and cut it to length where the paint stops burning , always seem to add a bit mph and faster ET.
This actually seems like a great old school method.
I'm addicted to your videos your enthusiasm is contagious. I have a 460 Ford built by an ex Roush mechanic. My intention was to stuff it into a 54 Ford coupe. A 54 was my first car and I stuffed a 390 in that one which barely fit with the flat exhaust manifolds. It was hot for the time. This 460 won't fit period unless I do a chassis modification and tube axle, basically a gasser, and I don't want that. Watching your 302 testing I became fascinated with their power potential. I have picked up 2 302s to build myself to get this project moving again. They wont have the wild hp of the 460 but they fit and probably will exceed the hp I had at 16 years old.
Thanks for doing a small block ford header video!!
Engine Masters used 18’ header extenders to great effect on their testing. Thanks for this video! 🦊
It's all about flow capacity of a given combination; in this case the 302 does not flow enough air for dual 3.5". The air speed slows too much at the over-sized/open-ended collector for proper scavenging effect. I would expect a dual 3" to gain low-end and mid-range power without any top-end losses. For this engine, a dual 2.5" is likely large enough. 3.5" would probably be perfect if it were to Y into a single exhaust.
As for primary size, I doubt there'd be much noticeable difference between 1-5/8" and 1-3/4", other than the larger might help more at the top of the power band.
The only reason to use an 8.2" deck block is a 9.5" deck won't fit! Been there, done that!! You stroke and spin that little bi!@h all you want! Keep shooting 250 on it to fool it and ur gonna piss the guys off when they have to clean the track! Of course, you could get an aftermarket block! But WTF4!! A 351w block will take 800hp preped! The rod-stroke ratio is light years better, rods are better, you can make the same power 800-1000rpm sooner! You can shoot 150 on a cast piston Windsor 20 times a week! It'll be sitting there waiting on you like a Labrador Retriever!
Many years ago I lost my mufflers going over a railroad track, so because it was night I just used a hacksaw blade to cut them off entirely and drove like that until the next day. The sound was awesome but it was so gutless that I could not wait to get new mufflers on. And this was with pipes all the way back to the axle, just no mufflers. It blew my mind how much torque and fun mufflers added to that car. It was a mild Holden 308 with tri-y headers going into a twin 2 1/4" exhaust. That car really needed mufflers otherwise it was a dog.
Remember "Project Pro Tree?" He went from longtubes to shorties and ran the same time. I know its not the dyno. But i would think the E.T. would have been affected if he lost power...Granted it wasn't a high hp engine. My longtubes had a long life, 25+ yrs on a street car and they are SHOT! I have a old set of MAC 1 5/8" shorties (brand new) and 2 1/2" h pipe laying around that may work their way on just because...
I'm curious to see what the difference would be on a mild 355 sbc, (hyd flat cam or retro hyd roller) with stock exhaust manifold vs say a Hooker cast iron manifold vs short tube headers vs mid tubes vs long tube headers all running in to side pipes.
I have those tests up-long tubes are best
Ah ah ah sir, this is a FORD VIDEO
Intro music is the best I get hyped for some more dope info!!
I love you videos! I'm learning so much.
I'd like to see the results of a 3" collector extension on 1 5/8" headers. I run pacesetters on my 302 with e303 plus GT40 heads and Trickflow upper and lower with a 70 mm on EFI.
Same. I have the Hooker Comps on my 351w and they clear the power steering and trans nicely, but I'm wondering if a 3 inch extension might help my torqorinos or if I should just step up to a full 3 inch system. 50 lbs is potentially a lot to leave on the table.
G'day Richard. If you change the diameter of the header pipes, or the diameter of the collector pipes, without changing the lengths, there will be no change in the power output, over the entire RPM range. That is because the length of header & collector pipes are dependant upon a pressure wave which travels at the speed of sound, not the diameter of the pipe. The only thing that would affect the pressure wave is a change in the density of the medium it is travelling through.
there is more going on that just 1 pressure wave (there are multiple), and tube diameter can change power
Need this test with stock heads .
Idk but can’t wait to see the results of the future header test👍
I’m curious what the dyno shows between tri-y and long tube headers on the 302 carb engine. Currently building one and would like to know which would be better for fun hot Rodin street use. Any suggestions/tests you can share/do? Thanks love your videos
I think and know that going smaller on exhaust primaries,collector and overall smaller diameter with longer length would yield better/responsive lower to mid range. And the opposite for mid to top end gains. Everything & anything to do with air flow is a see-saw/teeter-totter effect. It's basic Bernoulli's principle... where there is high pressure=low flow and low pressure=high flow.
great video. there is an episode of engine masters that covers this very issue with the EXACT result!
check the EM episode again-not the same test or motor or results-this test just happened a few days ago
I thought this was going to be the one video that I already new the information you were going to share from watching an episode of engine Masters, I may be mistaken, But I don't recall them addressing timing changes, they probably did, fryberger & the Steve's are pretty darn bright. John Cougar said you better learn to play guitar, Elvis wiggled his junk, but Richards like oh yeah" watch me test son, booyah in your face!👏👏👏
this was from my testing on the 5.0l cams-it wasn't from EM-but those guys do a good job
@@richardholdener1727 yah" I know it wasn't, but they did testing as well on collector length, so I thought this time I was going to know what you were talking about before instead of after. I was taught as a boy you don't get something for nothing so I am amazed at the information# wisdom you share, being totally unbiased and not trying to sell a product. For me your Channel, is my favorite thing about the internet. Geez I sound like a stalker! I just like when people say what they mean, mean what they say and know what the heck they're talkin about, no ulterior motives purdy darn rare these days. Bravo
Would love to see you test a set of (Marine) manifolds test like OMC or Mercruiser manifolds ! The mercruiser 5.7 is a vortec engine
I would expect a 3.0" collector to be more than adequate for a 400 hp small block. With nitrous or boost, maybe not. But I wonder if NA torque would IMPROVE with 3.0", vs a 3.5"? Only you can answer that, Dyno Man.
3.5" collectors sounded pretty ridiculous for a 5.0l engine to me too, but I just chalked it up to "dyno header, no restriction is best" Hell, I'd be surprised if a 2.5" collector was restrictive to it below like 7k rpm.
@@thethepete731 I have 5 inch collectors behind my 1970 boss 302 engine. Made from 2 drive lines.
@@cammontreuil7509 ok?
@@cammontreuil7509 Um, that might look cool in a street rod or something, but it's not optimal for power, and would look absurd on a Boss 302 Mustang.
@@jeffrykopis5468 I'm talking dyno comparison. Not looks.
But as an example. My younger brother bought a gasser, 39 Chevy coup 327, built by my uncle's.
The 327 had crome super comp hooker fender well headers and a 12 pack intake. I don't know what cam because we were both teens at the time and somewhat ignorant. I do know it was a solid lifter cam because I remember uncle Ed coming over and bitching at us to leave stuff alone and adjusted the valves again.
Well, my brother didn't like the straight axle, and put a dropped axle and conventional headers on the car.
At the strip the car ran slower. I know there is other factors and variables but the car was not as fast as it was.
Do one comparing styles of exhaust. Longtube, 180degree, 8 into 1. Throw in y-pipe, x pipe, h-pipe
Smaller headers and collectors, you'd probably limit the top end, with a mostly street engine it probably won't be noticed.
I'd guess at that power level the smaller headers and smaller collector diameter wouldn't make a whole lot of difference. If I recall correctly they did a test on Engine Masters between 3 inch and 3 1/2 exhaust, and they didn't see much difference until the output started to push past 500 horsepower.
More midrange torque, and possibly quicker 60' times! Guess that 1/8 mile times would be noticeable quicker, 1/4 mile. ????. It's a much better street motor with smaller collectors!! Gotta do alot to that 3" stroke motor to make it forget its only5 liters with a 3" stroke!! Chunk it and get a 351w!!! 1/2" more stroke, 7/8" more connected rod!! Rod stroke ratios!!! Plus 5/16 " rod bolts versus 3/8" rod bolts!! 5 liiter motors are training wheels!!
🔔😎😁JMO
Hookers 1 5/8 x 3 x 28" long will be the best overall and responsive. (Fox Mustang headers, preferred)
Hooker = Chinese
Will this combination header work well with a Chevy 350?
@@ActiveDadsRule
Depends on the build. 3" outlet is too big for sbc street cars. 2.5" all the way back with an H crossover, or even better (in my opinion) is 2.5" to a resonator with one 3.5" outlet then into one muffler. Nearly no back pressure if the muffler's selected properly.
Velocity increases in the longer pipes,more power,my theory is that if you ran both pipes into 1 with a scavenger collector it would boost torque in a big way,maybe not HP,it would be interesting to see the difference.That is why a X pipe works better than a H pipe,the X creates velocity.
Would have been educational to see what a 3.5 to a 2.5"-3" reducer extension
I suspect the smaller the primary, the higher and also sooner the torque curve would come on, but then possibly fall off a little sooner .
The cams are holding these engines back.
Clear example of reversion due to loss in velocity. Even with the extention added. For that power per cylinder...id make a set of headers with 1.5 for the first step (blow down length), 1.625 for the next size then tri-Y it with 1.875 secondaries with probably a 2.25 or so throat expanding into 2.5 after that
We both have very similar comments. You wouldn't happen to be a student of a Mr. Elston, or perhaps a Larry Meaux would you? 😉
I think a stepped header is best for most applications
Thank you!!! Very informative
Oh yeah. And Yes. Lengthen that collector if you can fit it....
Dumb question? Will adding a longer header collector work while using a set of shorty headers? I have an 86 Bronco with stock 5.0 (speed density) im going to upgrade to a MAF, but because of transfer case location. Exhaust options are limited. Shortys work best for fitment.
Love the channel. Ive learned a bunch over the past year or so that ive come across it.
it won't change anything on a shorty header
funny, your question at the end was in line with the question I was holding til the end of the video. Do you think that the length needed for scavenging is related to the diameter of the collector? I suspect, with a smaller collector, regardless of primary size, you'll get away with a shorter extension before you see a loss of scavenging because of how the pulses will reflect down a smaller tube.
I have tried collector extensions with smaller collector pipes and it still worked
@@richardholdener1727 My theory on it still hangs around the idea of the pulses reflecting down the pipe.
I've run crude math on sound waves at given frequencies when building exhausts to help achieve certain tones I wanted to amplify or diminish, and I think this hinges on the same idea; you need a minimum length of pipe to see the exhaust pulse travel far enough to generate the negative pressure behind it and draw the following pulse out. If the pipe is too short the exhaust pulse just goes into open air before it can begin drawing the following exhaust pulse. Your missing 50 is basically the difference between having an expansion pipe on a 2-stroke, or not.
The minimum length of pipe needed to see gains is probably proportional to diameter, but I have no idea what the relationship would be. My guess is an exponential curve.
I'd run a test to find how much less timing I could run without loss on the bottom and set the initial at that. Id' then set the distributor advance to bring the timing back in up to 6k rpm.
that is what we do on efi combos or on a carb application without a locked distributor
Does the engine see any difference between a collector extension and a cat or bent pipe or even a merge?
we could have run a muffler in place of the extension as long as it flowed well
How long were the collectors after you added the slip on extension? I’m thinking the smaller diameter headers/collectors will help torque especially down low.
It needs a 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 stepped header w a 2.5 Dia collector.
Yes, it does.
CAN YOU SHOW ME THE DATA
@@richardholdener1727
I don't know about data, but it seems fairly common knowledge when talking about small blocks. You should do a video on it. You do a great job of sorting this stuff out, and although I know it works (at least for the street) I'd like to see the numbers.
Edit: as I got to thinking about it, I recalled the primary tube diameter should increase as your desired rpm increases. So a street header wouldn't look like a race header.
I'm gonna break the norm and maybe hurt feelings, but header primary tube size and collector diameter for this little 302 should have been 1.5" primaries, with 2.25" collector chokes. With properly designed, long bend radius primaries, and a tighter collector choke, I would expect this engine to have made at least 25 more hp and 25+ ft-lbs of torque. I understand there is never a perfect world, but most hot rodders put way way way too large of primary tube headers on their engines. Dyno headers are a great example of one size does not fit all. Not knocking Richard at all, his videos are great, and I'm sure he probably knows what I'm referring to.
1.5 headers won't add 25 hp
@@richardholdener1727 I appreciate your comment, but *Properly designed* 1.5" stepped to 1.625" headers with a properly sized collector *will* make more power and torque across the entire rpm range.
Hey just curious and been watch for awhile now love the info you provide keep up the hard work man.
Now I'm curious about the difference between the two firing orders between the older 5.0 and the H.O. 5.0 when and why did they change is there performance gains which is better and why.
Got a 92 f150 5.0 with and mustang H.O. cam. Changed my fuel injection to fire with newer firing order. Would like to get more clarification on this can't seem to find a straight answer. Thanks
IT WAS NOT DONE FOR POWER
Would the 3inch collector be the same as going from header collectors into 3inch exhaust pipes?
I think running a 3.5-inch collector to a 3-inch exhaust would be different than running a 3-inch collector to a 3-ionch exhaust
Could you really dial in the timing backing off from 35 degrees to 33 and seeing if the power increased. Then keep splitting the difference until you find the lowest total timing for the most power?
WE CHANGED IN IN 1-DEGREE INCREMENTS DURING TESTING
I have a supercharged 306 with 1 -5/8 " 2 1/2" colector header. Thinking about changing to a 3" colector. Will it gain or loose power ?
not sure it is worth the swap
its interesting that 35-40 degrees made no power anywhere i expected a little bit up top but nothing
Any thoughts on whether the length of the collector has anything to do with the length of the primaries? Those look really long.
they both have an effect
Changing collector length on a Dyno or at the drags is fine, but how do you optimize torque on a street car with a full exhaust system?
Run your car on rollers to find out.
@@cammontreuil7509 That would work, but I'm asking hypothetically. I'm searching for proven theories, rules of thumb, so I know which way to go with changes.
@@jeffrykopis5468 part of the fun is experimenting. Try it sometime.
@@cammontreuil7509 I've never had the opportunity to Dyno test any of my junk, I did all my testing and tuning at the drags, had a ball, and learned a lot. I don't have any hot rods at this moment, but I'm buying back one of my old ones next month. 👍
Real life super hero
What the cheapest cam for 1994 350 LT1 engine from a caprice daily drive.
The stock one
I recommend a broomstick.
@@johncholmes643 ok
Also it's carb
Have a question. What is realistic gain expectation from cam, longtubes, intake manifold on a ls baseline at 260 and made 320 after mods. Same dyno and same gear pulls?
what cam and intake?
@@richardholdener1727 lq4- switched to tbss intake manifold, btr stage 4 truck cam v2, and long tube headers
I'm guessing that running the smaller headers will add some power down low but will drop off at the top
Hey Richard...I am building a 98 non p.i. short block.with the p.i. heads and intake....watched all your 4.6 2 valve videos..I was looking to buy a pair of those comp cams.p.i.262's or the p.i.274's....im doing the engine exactly like you did......with the p.i.stuff...and a 150 wet shot.......NEED those cams man......I can't afford that $609.00 that comp wants for em......need a deal bad...plz can u help a fellow hot rodder ?
I don't think I have any unfortunately
5.0 vs 4.8 ls ?
Run it with no headers
As in straight off the heads, no exhaust what so ever.
tri-y's!!!
Good call! Doug's Headers from Pertronix
Crazy to think people waste time on anything Ford. Love your channel bro can’t wait to see more LS videos!😎
#eatadic
PLEASE SEE THE 400-500 LS VIDEOS THAT ARE UP
@@hechtspeed eatadik 2
Yay zoomies! Wait....
Looks like it lost top-end power. That would not be ideal in a drag car.
it didn't
@@richardholdener1727 oh ok
My bad. Your experience and education is well deserved. Keep the ford videos coming please and thank you
Oh BRO! you just needed that back pressure to make power, DUH 🙄
yes-back pressure always adds power
First
How do you know you were first when over a 100 people has watched this video.....lol
@@matthewvarnam4302 first to comment ☝️
@@20alphabet 😂 what a time to be alive!
@@Lagrange1186
I was just playing around I knew what you meant by saying first I was just trying to be some what a little funny...lol...the times we live in today we need a little humor and laughter have a good night Brandon God bless...🇺🇸💯
Personally I blame squirrels
Usually, FTW means F**k The World. What does it mean in YOUR videos?? You use it in your titles a lot.
FTW=FOR THE WIN, NOT SURE WHERE YOUR DEFINITION COMES FROM
@@richardholdener1727 Hells Angels 😆
My favorite collector was a flowmaster 3 to 2.5 reducer with a 14" megaphone welded to it. Really picked up the midrange on a motor with a 109 lobe centerline.
Higher exhaust velocity as the overlap increases, seems increasingly useful.
I would love to see different sizes of collector extension, and if they require different lengths. Narrower = shorter? Larger = longer?
With ported subwoofer boxes, smaller ports will play lower frequencies for the same length as larger ports. Or, larger ports need to be longer to play the same frequency as a narrower port, until the airspeed becomes too high.
Also, what about for road applications in states/countries with stricter laws. What happens if there is a bend in the extension, as if it needed to wrap around the transmission and clear the floorpan/chassis?
Is there a difference in power between collector extension to an open to atmosphere dump, will you loose significant power if you have a high flow cat converter or muffler there, as long as the extension is long enough?
Dave vizard has a great exhaust video on his channel that covers a bunch of these topics. You should go watch it.
Play it at 1.25-1.5x speed though because he talks pretty slow these days.
a sub woofer box does not provide a scavenging wave
@@richardholdener1727 yes of course, the air in a sub box moves back and forth it does not "flow" but I still think it would be interesting comparison. I wouldn't run a dual 3" exhaust on a 302 with 350hp.
I have been waiting for this video for a long time. Thank you!!!!!
Nice work Richard. Wowza! Everyone likes to see a Phat mid range. 💨🔥I'm lucky to have two Ford engineer friends, both did the big Ford firing order HO engines One did the US short deck 8.2 inch development, the other the tall deck 9.2 inch 4.942 and 5.766 liter Cleveland's in Australia. Gregg and Bill found that good long tubes work great on a dyno, but when the engine bay is tight like it is on all unibody Ford's, Tri Y's give the edge. Non- symmetry seams to help the mid range. The chosen cam profiles that work are are the CobraJet, Super CobraJet style with 18 degrees extra exhaust lift, because all Ford's really suffer with compromised total combination exhaust flow. Once the whole exhaust pipe systems go on, the headers don't extract nearly so well. Dropping the peak duration at lash by 10 degrees can maintain peak HP and gain low end torque with a full 2.5 inch dual exhaust and craggy headers that look like they will hurt your 2500 to 3500 toque figures.
HOW CAN A TRI Y WORK BETTER IN AN ENGINE BAY? WHY WOULD THAT CHANGE ANYTHING? AND ARE THE CAM SPECS YOU RECOMMEND FOR STOCK MOTORS?
I really enjoy your testing and analysis, especially Ford.😁
More truck people should watch these videos. Most are still searching and using Horsepower as a measurement. Meanwhile its the torque that counts.
Great detective work on the collector diameter issue. From all the headers I have been around, 3 1/2 inch collectors are on big inch big blocks. Shoenfelt errored on the collector diameter. I would be interested in seeing a 2 1/2 " collector and keeping the same 1 3/4" down tubes. Later, if available, a set of 1 5/8" tubes would be interesting. Back in the day of Ford's Indy and GT40 engines, you'll see they used quite small collectors with megaphones. The GT40's shrieked and drove the Frenchies bananas as Ford destroyed all the competition. The Frenchies were still jealous of us winning WW2. Actually, the Frenchies hate all equally...Haha
Both engines you speak of had 180* exhausts to emulate flat plane cranks. Not the goofy exhausts that people are saddled with normally.
@@2lotusman851- what are you describing with 180 deg exhaust? Always learning here. TIA, Clay
Anyone see the header extension extending ?
guys i have a 94 mustang gt w/ the 302. i have an f-cam w/ ported stock heads and ported upper/lower intake. i was thinking about getting some aftermarket heads, pretty sure im gonna grab the afr 165's but unsure if they will work w/ my f-cam. also was thinking about the edelbrock performer II intake. any insight on this is much appreciated!
both good choices
I feel like the closer the header size is to the size of the exhaust port in the head, the more efficient it will be.
good point about making too many changes at once--you don't know which change caused your problem or your happiness. an interesting thing about the ignition timing is some might want the later one to give the piston less resistance coming up to TDC and cause a pumping loss, but you want a combustion design that hastens the burn before the exhaust valve opens.
you want the combination of the most power with the least amount of timing
Are longtubes easier to fit than shorties up top near shocktower?
not always
My 2v went from a 6 cat h pipe, clean California spec, over to a 1 5/8" primary, 3" collector and 3 inch catless X and the butt dyno approved.
I bet it will make better power with 1.675 primaries 3.00 in collector.
It's interesting just how much timing can vary depending on your combination. My sbc liked 34 degrees. My brother's Pontiac liked around 40 degrees. My ford coyote stopped making power at just 27 degrees.
It's mostly about the flame travel efficiency of the chamber. Compact with lots of swirl need less timing. Big open chambers need more timing. Don Garlits has a funny story about when they first started running the 426 hemi at the request of Chrysler. They started running at the 34° timing they always ran on the 392, but it ran slower. Planning to destroy the engine with excess timing so they could go back to the 392, they ended up at 50° which dropped .8 sec and gained 27mph.
th-cam.com/video/kdE693EHpNQ/w-d-xo.html
just give the motor the timing that it wants-it will tell you
What did this combination make with the Comp 274 cam?
So what about collector extensions with a turbo?
always the correct answer
Test a fender well header.
We used to see stuff like this back in the 90s with 2barrell circle track engines! When people put headers on different than the normal Kooks headers that almost all chassis builders normally used, sometimes they could make the engine a absolute turd 💩💩💩💩! We had winning engines that couldn’t even run in the top 5 with the other headers! But when we dynoed it (of course with our Kooks headers) it was making the same horsepower & torque as it did when it was new 🙄🙄🙄🙄! That poor bastard changed just about everything else on that car, ignition, water pump, fuel pump, fan, ect ect! Well we happened to go to the track that Friday mainly because this guy was saying it was the engine! Well that’s the first thing we noticed, was the nice new coated headers! That were supposed to make more power! Well when my boss asked where are the rusty old Kooks? He said they were in the trailer because he was selling them 🙄🙄🙄🙄! Needless to say, we stuck the old Kooks back on & it was a winning car again! That night! Well he ended up selling the nice new ones & that guy ended up running around the back of the pack, until my boss mentioned to that guy, hey you might want to investigate the length or collector on those, because they seemed to loose a shitton of power! Well he made a new customer immediately! 😂😂😂😂
I have a header video up on a 2-barrel circle track motor
Hey Richard....thanks for responding so quick when I ask if you had any p.i. cams for my 4.6 I'm building.....I was curious if you might know where I could find a centrifugal supercharger ..for the same non p.i. short block with p.i.top end...don't need brackets........just the head unit.
I have one-send me an email-killerbe16@aol.com
Good stuff! Compare Edelbrock intake vs Chinese intake.
Don't you mean OTHER Chinese intake?
Using the exact same engine, head and cam I'd like to see what it does with the 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 stepped header (with 3 1/2 collector) and also 1 3/4 tubes with a 3inch collector because the collector length could be a problem when in the vehicle.
Then put a full 2 1/2 & 3 inch exhaust on it. Seldom do we get to run an open exhaust unless it's on the dyno. Some tracks even have a noise limit that makes you use some kind of muffler.
step headers might be cool
I'm not so interested in changes to the headers but instead, how much of a difference is there when you have a full exhaust? Is there a benefit for the collector extension on a car? Does an H-pipe make a difference?
THE HEADERS DID NOT RESPOND TO FURTHER EXTENIONS
Following this one for sure!
thanks so much for this!
Hi I need help this is unrelated to this video this question is about your speed Secrets 350 over on Comp Cams you did The Beehive Springs the cam heads and so forth what was the cast numbers for the heads that you used on the vortec heads I hope you can see my message over here and I really hope somebody can help me out
I don't know the head casting number
@@richardholdener1727 okay no problem do you know do the Beehive Springs fit on any of the vortec heads and work like you did it in that video I'm not super knowledgeable I just want to make sure I buy the correct parts
How low would you recommend starting out with on the timing?
20
@@richardholdener1727 Thank you sir.
3.0” collector would gain more torque ….along with a 1 5/8 primary.
Really don’t need a 3.5” collector till ya start getting over 500 hp.
What would happen if you did a LS engine the same way??💪💪💪💪
I HAVE TESTED COLLECTOR LENGTH ON LS MOTORS
I have hooker super comp headers and they're only 1.5" primary with a 2.5" collector, it's a 5.0 302 Ford but the chassis is the problem - 78 mustang 2
Everything is a tight fit in the engine bay of a 78 Mustang II ! 1 1/2" headers still make power! Changing plugs must be a weekend job!