EVH Stealth vs Mesa Rectifier: Do They Actually Sound the Same?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
- #mesaboogie #rectifier #evh #stealth #amp #highgain #metal #guitar #same #tone #speakers
So, a few weeks ago @SpectreSoundStudios Glenn Fricker made the bold claim that a 5150-style amp a Mesa Rectifier basically sound the same in a mix. Supposedly the amps were dialed in only using their EQs... So, I decided to see if my own rectifier and 5150-style amp could be made to sound like each other. I ran a DI Track through my EVH Stealth and Mesa Triple Rectifier into a Vintage 30 equipped Mesa Oversized cab mic'ed up with a Shure SM57.
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0:00 Intro
0:18 Set-up
2:09 Full Mix No Boost
3:03 Frequency Graph 1
4:40 Isolated Guitars No Boost
5:34 Amp EQ
6:55 Full Mix Mesa Boosted
7:50 Frequency Graph 2
8:44 Isolated Guitars Boosted
11:00 Full Mix My Settings
12:50 Frequency Graph (Best Match)
13:46 Isolated Best Match - เพลง
Both amps trace their preamp DNA to the Soldano SLO - the Recto is a straight up copy of the SLO preamp, the difference is in its power amp. The 5150 is an SLO (which Eddie played prior to making it) with extra gain stages. I guess it's not surprising to me that they can be made to sound really similar given that history. What someone needs to try is amps with seriously different preamp topology - like a Mesa Mark series vs. a 5150 or something like that. I think it'll be quite a bit more difficult to fully match up there.
I think most are gona sound the same. I dont think you get a big difference untill you change to solid state. Esp the newer class d amps
yeah, and later in 5150 II they tightened preamp, and in 5150 III added another stage and changed cathode resistor from classic to SLO 39k to smaller value I believe
SLO is based on a Marshall, Marshall is based on a Fender bassman. Everything is a copy of something. SLO and dual recs sound different but can be made to sound similar.
Agree completely with the mark series amps needing to be in the equation. We did a re-amp session with my band and used an Engl Savage 120 and a Mark IV and it was absolutely night and day. Granted we didn't try to "match" the two at all, we dialed them to their own strengths, but it was completely different
At the end of the day it all boils down to the setup/how one dials it in. A lot of times the real differences are more nuanced, such as clarity, touch sensitivity, feel, etc.
Cool Video! Thanks.
I like your videos btw. Keep up the good work.
Hats off to you for doing this video. I don't think there's any definitive answer as to which one's best. That is totally subjective. But using the graph to bear an image of the frequencies gives players a tangible representation of what they're hearing.
Nice job on this man! I really like how close you got with the boosted area of the video. I also like when you use this riff in your tests.
It is a solid riff track. I find the problem with reusing tracks is that I end up spending too much time remixing the track in the process and trying to “improve” stuff. I also switched up my drum program since this one and haven’t converted any of the midi to the new program, so I end up having to remember which samples are assigned to what note!
@@BaritoneGoatStudio I understand that on all fronts! Same issues. I’m trying some new drum stuff that I love but the midi mapping isn’t the same and it’s screwing me up. Just making me better in the long run.
I agree with Glenn about the importance of speaker when it comes to sound, but that does not mean that everything sounds the same. One of the things that really upsets me about him is the fact that he thinks that chugging power chords Palm muted equates to every single guitar technique. I'm pretty goddamn sure that sweep picking, economy picking tapping and Legato make a huge difference when you have a shitty pick up.
We have to Beware of the salesmen who pushed the concept of myth-busting, saying a certain thing is across the board bad, then advertising one product out of that group and going "but this one's actually good!"
They build trust based on skepticism then use it to sell. It also really pisses me off when people mention science so that people feel stupid if they argue against it, when their methodology is incredibly flawed. Just because you're doing tests doesn't mean you did the right ones.
A lot of science as we know it is actually bulshit, and they're very big name scientists coming out saying it if you look in the right places. A lot of them are just scared to say it because higher up people will shame them out of the industry.
Fvckjng excellent comment.
He promoted an ODR-1 plugin for metal. The man has no shame.
The one thing that Glenn did that is a fatal flaw in his test is that he maxes the gain. Most people who play these amps don't come anywhere near max gain. It's not condusive to clarity, and it compresses the signal all to hell, which is great when you want to "prove" that two amps sound the same, but that isn't really a practical application. As far back as the late 90s, I've always felt that Mesa Rectifiers are scooped in nature compared to a lot of other amps. The 5150 family tends to have more mids naturally, especially low mids, which gives it that growl that metal players like so much. They are also more compressed sounding than Mesa's, especially when it comes to the Stealth, which is probably the most compressed sounding 5150 there is.
@@travisspaulding2222 yeah, and the fact that when he does his pickup tests he says that the gain is the part that basically neutralizes the difference in tonality means he should know this.
@@seannicholes I have no doubt that he knows it. He is being intellectually dishonest, and considering he has a close relationship with Harley Benton/Thomann (since he can't get through a video without pushing one of their cabs, lol) and the fact that he sells his own IRs, I don't give him the benefit of the doubt. His channel used to give really good advice about recording techniques. Now it's just advertisements and flawed experiments that ultimately results in "buy my stuff."
on hifi speakers, they sound very similar. and yes, the difference is in how you have to set it up. that should be the biggest difference. and i agree with what glenn mentions in one of his videos. only guitar players will notice the slight difference.
I don’t think even guitarist will know one way or another once you mix and master a track. Once you get beyond the speaker and are using a mic, the way you can shape the tone is very drastic.
My main point to Glenn’s argument was that amps don’t behave the same and setting them up to sound similar through the same speaker misses out on what an amp might do better when set accordingly. I don’t think his 6505 sounded great set up to sound like a Mesa, and I was even a little bit underwhelmed by what the Mesa sounded like in his experiment. Trying to prove they sound alike just made both amps sound mediocre at best.
Before I bought my modded 3 channel trip rec I owned an EVH el35 50w and I quickly learned that the EVH (especially red channel) is just way too much saturation for me and the EL34 power section on those amps are too noisy for my personal taste. I have tried the 6L6 (stealth included) of the EVH, but I could never quite gel with it as other players have. That being said this was a great comparison of what modern amps like the EVH are capable of. I have noticed my taste in amps has drastically shifted and I prefer older amps gain structure, as I also recently bought a Peavey Ultra Plus. Great vid!
I like crunchy amps that I can boost! The blue channel on the EVH is my preferred tone overall. I can get the Red channel to do what I like too, but the blue channel just hits different.
One time I was playing around with the sound of a JCM 800 and two graphic eqs - one before the amp and the other in the amp loop. This way I achieved every sound of a modern high gain amplifier.
Really great video. Like you said, I think they can be dialed in to sound very similar but there are certain things that one does well that the other doesn’t and vice versa. I think there is nuance to the debate that Glenn has sparked and one side that’s not covered so much is feel. For example, I had a 50 watt 5150 iii EL34 and compared it against my 5150 iii stealth 50 and during tracking I could have sworn that they were miles off but afterwards I listened and even on the blue channel they were a lot closer than I thought. I think the perception and feedback I got from playing those amps made me change my technique a little and respond differently because as we know the el34 has this slow and bulbous sounding blue channel and the stealth is fast tracking and articulate. I could turn the bass up and resonance down on the stealth to get closer to the el34 or the bass down and treble up on the el34 to get it closer to the stealth but they will still give you a different playing experience and they both excel at different things. I understand Glenn’s argument is from an engineers perspective but I feel he leaves out the players perspective which in my opinion is just as important. Just my two cents anyways
I think the blue channel on the 5150 would get you even closer.
The blue channel on the 50 watt doesn’t have a lot of low-end naturally. It is a little tighter, but the gain level might be closer. I should try and see what I get. I should also look at the orange channel on the Rec.
I think it's possible to get them to sound FAIRLY similar, the bloodline is the same after all, but they aren't going to feel similar...thats for sure. Recs don't have the speed of a 5150. That said, I can get my rec to sound pretty tight when I have the loop on and the master set noon or above. With the loop OFF, it's more Soldano-y and gushy and I set the master no higher than 9 o clock.
well, i dont speak english that good but... for me, when you tryed to make the5150 sound like mesa, you just showed their differences, while when you show your way to set em to sound as you usually do, they sound much more similar, and basically i got a learn on 5150 being my preference, in the "similar to mesa" than the other eqs. good video, also showing some "reach by ear" for the sound you want in any amp. variations may show up more or less... tks
I couldn’t really tell a difference in the mix, especially after you boosted the mesa.
I can hear the difference. There us a different voicing in where the gain spikes. Aggressive vs smooth.
I contend that any tube amp pushed with an overdrive and into a celestian cab can make a good sound for metal and hard rock
I dont understand why there is so much fuss going on between making amps sound the same and highlighting that they can sound the same..
Instead, Why dont we take the differences in those amps and embrace and make the differences better as oppose to try match one amp to another ?
My EVH is completely different than my Recto in so many ways, and if I dial the EVH to how I like it, My mesa will have a hard time trying to match it (And vice versa)
However, im so guilty because i love watching those kind of videos 🤣
Pretty close but different enough to pick apart. Your crowd won’t know the difference
Why should I adjust the same sound in different amps? Normally I choose an amp that have a character that I like, the right cabinet with the right speakers, the pedals and the guitar I like... I don't want to sound like everybody else, I just like to do my own thing. Nothing is better or worse, it's just a matter of taste. I think, just do what you want and be happy.
I think that is what Glenn was missing in his video. Amps shouldn’t be made to sound the same because they can. And in his video, the tone of each amp suffers because of it. I don’t dial these amps in to sound alike, and neither do most who use them.
Because one of the main things that many guitarists look for is versatility. We all want a unique sound. But many of us also want to be able to replicate other sounds without having to by an amp for each individual sound. Not all of us can afford thousands for 1 particular sound, then drop thousands for another particular sound. The ability to buy 1 amp and make it sound like another amp, can be huge for someone. Especially, if they are on a budget. Not saying this in any aggressive way, but not every video is made for you particularly. It may not help you, but it may greatly help others.
@@jerseyfinfan7547 good point as well! I do tend to use my EVH mainly due to the fact that it has broader range of tonality. If need be, it could do what the Mesa does! If you were looking to get one amp to do it all, the EVH is a better investment than the Mesa in my opinion!
@@BaritoneGoatStudio This is why I swapped my 6505+ to an EVH 5150III (v2 with concentric knobs). Granted, sometimes I feel it was a mistake as it doesn't quite do what the 6505+ did without some help, but it is a much more versatile amp, and that does help a lot since I play a pretty wide range of tone. From like Chili Peppers to Pantera lol
Because you get a better stereo image in a a pro mix by using two amps.
Definitivamente estos amplificadores suenan totalmente diferentes. No importa cuánto trates de emparejar las frecuencias, cada amp tiene su propia característica. No creo que Glenn haya dicho que todos los amplificadores suenen igual con el mismo Sepaker. Lo único que trata de explicar es que el Speaker y el Mic brindan el tono final de tu guitarra.
0:40 According to Glenn Clicker, NOTHING matters when it's Hi Gain 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
It seems to be getting that way. I will give him the benefit of being consistent in the speaker thing. But some of his tests seem a little too designed to reach a specific conclusion.
@@BaritoneGoatStudio , it's consistent that I conclude he's loud and whiny and a tumor on the guitar community.....
He did a test a while back where he was showing the difference between tube and solid state and when he did the mix the guitars where turned down so low you could barely hear anything. There was a really good bass tone and everybody was raving about it, then a couple weeks later he came out with his bass amp sim
Only thing that matters is the gain and the cab
@@BaritoneGoatStudio Glenn also won't release uncompressed audio files for his tests either. He'll say something like "It would take too much time" and "The juice isn't worth the squeeze," or "Maybe when I get to a million subs I'll start releasing uncompressed audio files of these tests" while talking about how scientific he is being. Meanwhile, youtube audio is compressing the hell out of anything you upload.
They sound similar, but there are VERY noticeable differences. I get what Glenn's point is I think. It's basically everything sounds kind of similar so just pick an amp and play. At least that's what I think he means... As when I've watched him recently he's becoming more 'Glenn' if that makes sense. Like the Flanderization of Glenn Fricker. 😂
Reducing an amp sound to a frequency curve is a bit simplistic and only one part of the story.
It tells you about how it is at a particular time (like a snapshot) frequency wise, but it doesn't tell you about how it reacts in time (the envelope so to speak).
If i had to make a drums analogy : a snare sound is not limited to its frequency curve at a given time... It's also about how the sound develops once you hit the snare (initial attack, then release , decay, etc).
In a mix you hear more of the frequency curve, whereas the envelope thing is more of a compression/dynamics thing, which is felt by the player who plays the amp.
If you match EQ a recto to another amp, it might sound similar in a mix, but a guitar player will tell it feels different when playing it, and it will affect the way he plays.
Yes! Exactly. The EVH being matched to the recto felt unresponsive and heavy, not in a good way. It didn’t sound bad when mic’ed up but when I played in real time, it sounded and felt off to me. The recto, even though sounding similar in that instance, feels and responds in way that seems natural for the amount of gain and eq settings. And it comes down to, yes, you can make them sound alike… but why? They don’t really sound their best when you do that, even in a mix.
@@BaritoneGoatStudio Agreed 100%.
The best approach is to get to know each amp signature sound (listening to all these amp demos is a good way to do that), and learn how to tweak it to what's best for the context. And of course the amp settings are just one thing you can adjust. Changing how you play, guitar pick, boost / pre EQ pedal, post EQ, etc, will change the tone a lot (not to mention the cab/mic/mic position, which changes the frequency curve mostly).
Knowing what your amp(s) can do and how to tweak it/them is better than chasing other amp's tones imo.
You should go the opposite route now an see how different they can sound. Maybe theres somes tones that one amp can do that the other cant? Then you can blend them left and right to show how useful having 2 different amps are for recording.
That’s a cool idea. When I was putting this together I was mixing the left and right channels together and when I had the different amps going left and right the mix sounded bigger and fuller! Even with them being somewhat matched.
It would also be cool to show the magic that is the blue channel on the EVH and would it could be blended with the Mesa! That would be a wall of sound!
Could you play riffs that change faster? /s
Time to work on my math rock skills and see if I can make heads explode!
To be fair, nowhere in that video does he claim they sound the same. He says they sound very similar. I personally don't like the recto low end, and I like the metallic clang in the upper mids on the 5150. But that's me, it's all subjective.
Would have been good as a final comparison to set everything at noon to hear the differences
That is something I think I should follow up on for sure!
The only audio Glenn Fricker truly cares about is the "clicking sound" when people click on his clickbait videos.
Using an EVH 5150 up'd the anty in this demo and shows that the EVH can hang without a boost, amazing. However, at the end of the day all the haters and naysayers are still going to not believe the evidence and scream butthurt all day. BTW @KaddysJamCave, this is how you do a real test, My Guy! 2 different amps, Same cab!
Im might get some crap but i think that like 90% of tube amps sound the same.
The tone you got from both of those amps sounds brutal though.
That is right. Most of the differences in the sound you hear live come from the cabs...Is the same thing as guitars, you plug any hambucker guitar with the same pickups in front of a tube amp and the same cab..and you get almost the same sound in a mix...no matter the amp, no matter the guitar
No crap, changing the cab makes a bigger diff than changing heads
Honestly, I can tell the difference between a fender, Marshall and a vox but everything else seems to come from the family tree of one of those 3. I think most of the differences in amp tones, especially if you’re playing high gain, just comes from the speaker and cab size/style. A Jensen in a closed back cab will sound different than a cream back in an open cab and so on.
I would say 90% of amps sound 90% the same. There are always small differences though.
Differences are tweakable
Never. Do equalize them so!
They bouth sound like Vintage 30s 90% of the time
I always wondered what a cheap crate practice amp would sound like though a vintage thirty recorded with an sm57😂
Rect sounds better, to me. I own a 50w 5153 6L6 though. If I could afford a double or triple rect, I'd surely sell the evh.
I think they overlap heavily. The recto can get some bigger tones for really heavy playing and has that thick low end. The EVH seems to take the heavy mid range and modern tone thing to the next level. I don’t prefer either over the other, but I find myself playing the EVH more lately.
I can definately hear the difference too, recto all the way
High gain is really forgiving. You can crank the gain and use a boost on most of these high gain amps and it's basically the same. Glen is a low information metal head. He's all about chunk chunk chunk. He doesn't care about chords or note definition or feel or mojo or any of the stuff regular guitarists understand. Metal tone is basically one dimensional and he doesn't deny that. Making everything "sound the same" is messed up. It's just dumb. Why would you want to make to different amps with different character the same? Why have more than one amp if they can all "sound the same". What's the focus on "getting everything to sound the same"? Glen is fixated on sameness and trying to debunk all of the "corksniffer" claims. it's a waste of time. I'd much rather hear some differences and use different sounds to achieve different objectives.
His demonstration begged the question of why? Why make these two amps sound alike? I didn’t really prove that “the amp didn’t matter” just that you can make two amps sound alike when using the same speaker and mic. And honestly, make them not sound super great for their respective capabilities. The speaker will ultimately dictate the limits of the frequencies, but the signal being input does matter. Both amps will push different parts of that speakers frequency tolerance.
For a guy who likes to tout the merits of finding a unique sound, I think he went too far into the “what matters” debate to essentially advocate for people to sound the same.
@@BaritoneGoatStudio We should suggest Glen do a video about how to get a good lead tone as opposed to a good rhythm tone. He'd probably say just use the same sound for both.
And equalizing them to sound the same or down to 5150s lower level is stupid
I would definitely not recommend making them sound similar. They each do their own thing!
As always with Glenn, he dials in his tones with too much gain, basically old school metal tones that do little to preserve the character of the amp. The guy thrives on "controversial" opinions and in particular with this one made himself look like an idiot because most of us know or have access to these amps. they clearly have very different sounds. Sure you can dial them in to have similarities. In the same way you could drive a Ferrari and Fiat the same way if you're using them for the morning school run but that doesnt make them the same car.
evh is more thight
they sound the same if you play them through the same cab.....most things do that way.....
No they don't. How many amps do you own and how many speakers? Because I own a shit ton and no, they don't sound the same even if you try to dial them in to sound the same.
@@theostragonidis7548 The same? No, but even here he admitted they can sound very similar. That was I think Glenn's point, buying another amp sometimes may not be the solution someone is lookign for since you can get it to sound similar to the other.
@@suffersystemstudios No, that wasn't his point. He posted a clip where the tone was not only similar, it was near identical. I'm 100% sure that he post-EQed the shit out of it, so that he can make them sound that close because you will NEVER achieve that kind of similarity by only using the tone controls of the amps. It is clear that he's doing that to instigate a reaction and make more views.
No
Guitars too quiet and drums too loud in your mixes
I used a more natural mix template geared toward full band production this time around. And I didn’t slam the mix bus as hard to limit the tone coloration. Normally the drum transients get a bit more compressed in the mix and the sides get boosted! I do have a guitar centric mix template that I have used for gear demos that wouldn’t work well for actual production.
But I decided to extract the guitar tracks either way for a closer listen.
@@BaritoneGoatStudio i think it sounded great the drums esp so many ppl over compress an limit their drums too much if i were nitpicky id say the snare was poking out a little bit, what i do is turn down volume as low as possible an listen for anything that sticks out. but overall i think for the context of the video the mix was great!
Mesa eats any 5150 variant. Hell yeah I said it. They sound nothing alike
lol ❤
they sound nothing alike only in certain circumstances... playing in a room is nothing like recording. don't close your mind to the point it distorts reality
I unsubbed to that dude ages ago LOL. He's far more interested in rage baiting people than actually making genuine comparisons.
The topics he covers are starting to get a little rote and predicable. I do pull some useful stuff here and there still. Plus his contentious ideas gives me stuff to try out!