My main problem with The Thousand Year Door is the amount of backtracking. It really puts games like Metroid to shame. Take Chapter 4 for example. You walk 1: From the village halfway towards the mansion (to get the black key) and back 2: From the village to the mansion and back (you beat Doopliss along the way) 3: From the village to the mansion and back (to learn Doopliss name) 4: To the mansion. And all this is if you know what you're doing. If you get stuck, things get even worse. I'd also like to note that there's very little on the path towards the mansion. There's like 2 enemies on the path towards the forest and 2 enemies in the forest or something. Chapter 5 and especially chapter 2 are simularly bad. And let's not talk about the General White quest. (the quest that let's you use the cannon in between chapter 6 and 7) Having said all this, Paper Mario TTYD is still my favorite Gamecube game, but it definitely has flaws.
Something else I think that makes me not like Paper Mario besides the backtracking is the fact that it doesn’t have anything close to a party composition element that I consider inseparable from almost every RPG (except perhaps Fable). All it would have needed is to add one more to the party size. The Mario +1 just doesn’t work for me.
Coming from a person who plays a lot of smash bros competitively, I do not like when people say there's a way the game is "meant to be played". The way you should play it is whatever way you have the most fun. You like playing with items and on Big Blue fighting over which car you like the most, then freaking do it! You want to play competitive with no items, go ahead! There is no single way to play the game, and that's one of the reasons the game is so damn special. You can play this game with anyone regardless of skill level, and then play until your hands fall off :D
Except you cant just play with anyone, I doubt most competitive players will be fine with playing with all items on and on any stage that's not final destination. If they lose they'll complain and say the RNG of the items is why they lost. Source: me and a friend who plays competitive. He played a casual match with me and then complain about losing because items and stage hazards were on, blamed his loss on those.
Hanako is best girl Well, too bad but your friend is immature to be salty about a casual games. For my experience, I’ve never found anyone in competitive play thats not down to just have fun. Obviously, its not absolutely everyone, but thats always the case with anything. I play with lots of friends casual smash games (brawl, Smash 4, Ultimate, 64, you name it) every day, even though I know competitive melee, and we all still have the best days ever. The guy of this comment is very right, that a very cool thing of smash is you can play however you feel like it with friends. Your friend would just look immature if he gets salty about playing a game for fun with other friends.
@@hanakoisbestgirl4752 You should watch Alpharad's Casual Invitational. Watching a bunch of pro smash players playing with items on and hazards active is one of the best things ever.
I liked how Jeff came out of his shell more and more as this series went on. This was easily his best episode imo. Where the last 2 seasons had someone who was too loud, he had the opposite problem and improved over time. Props to him.
I respect people liking the game, I like it myself. But the camera is kinda jank, it's limited to a 4:3 AR at 480p, you have no control options, it has a number of glitches and the fighters are unbalanced. So as fun as it may be, I think it's save to say it objectively didn't age well.
The problem is you can't see the true beauty of melee until you can experience it at a high level. Once you understand the depth of the game it will blow your mind exactly how much effort was put into melee.
Jared looks like a super wealthy young-genius British novlist in this episode. He looks like he's in the middle of writing his new book after spending the summer in France with an unknown romantic liaison.
Here's a thought, maybe instead of doing madness tournaments on gsmes of consoles, do games of a genre, I see so many madness episodes that have to do these comparisons of single player vs multiplayer, or rpg vs platformer, maybe put together similar games to draw more argument points. People have probably said this before lol
People would rather see a look at the best games on a system then best games of a genre so how about best games of a specific genre on a system like best RPGs on the snes or best shooters on the xbox
@@AlphaladZXA I think that works for certain genres, but that also makes the task much longer as there would many many brackets for all the genres on the consoles they work on, we would have like 4 brackets on snes alone.
@@JetWolfEX that might work for similar genres, but the size would not let a lot of series for the 12 bracket format if they still wanna do that. And some are so big and diverse, mostly Mario and Pokemon, that it would have the same problems in judgement with all the spinoffs
I feel an issue that comes up a lot in Madness with these very different games, is that the cast will continue struggling to find similar points between them, which creates unfair comparisons. "Paper Mario and Smash both have fighting, and Smash has better fighting, so point for Smash" is terribly unfair. Rather than comparing what's the same about both games, which never ends up being very much, they should have been comparing the different techniques the games use to tackle the same problems, such as repetitiveness (which they brought up but didn't really say anything worthwhile about). They touched on this concept earlier, saying how the shooting in Metroid wasn't as important as it was in RE, for instance, but that way of thinking never really stuck. Ultimately I agree with the result, but I think the way they get there is still a bit shaky. This season's improved a lot over the past couple, but I'd love to see it go even further next time.
To be fair on the combat point, they literally state right after that point: "Yeah, cause it's a fighting game vs an RPG." Lee even shrugged and commented that he was just trying. It wasn't a good point, thus it didn't stick. That said, I agree with the rest of your point. I think they are trying, but it becomes hard because there is no way to say one is better than the other. Especially in a situation like this. A fighting party game that has a competitive aspect to it versus a single-player RPG. They don't have much overlap in any aspect, even from a technical perspective.
@@ForrestFurst I don't think it's a problem with the matchups themselves, but rather the way the team is approaching them. A single player vs a multiplayer game is fine, for instance - sometimes they ought to be compared - but fishing for similarities where they don't really exist isn't the best way to compare them. I'll reiterate that I think the best way to compare those sorts of games is with similar challenges that they face, rather than the similar things that they do (or lack thereof). Ask questions like "how do these two games both manage to outshine their successors" or "what qualities keep these games from becoming stale", instead of weighing similar aspects of each game that matter far more to one than the other. I don't think the show is completely void of this way of thinking; I've definitely noticed it a lot in this season in particular. I just think it's a direction of discussion that's a bit lacking in the areas that need it the most. Don't get me wrong, I really do love the show, so forgive my big rant. It's just that I'd like to see the thing I love continue to grow and surpass itself - a sentiment I think we can share about a lot of these games and franchises when we criticize them.
@@geminimaxxim When we compared these games to other games in their franchise in the past, we got complaints about that. No matter what we do, it's going to piss someone off lol Not saying your suggestions are bad. It's just, having looked at all of the feedback we've gotten over the past 8 months, we just can't win. We're doing our best.
@@ForrestFurst That's a fair perspective. I'm no professional game reviewer or anything, so I'm not exactly an expert on the right way to do it. My point to begin with was mostly that the "these games both have shooting" approach probably isn't the best one. Good for a laugh, absolutely, but not always the most insightful tool for comparison.
You all did a much better job addressing Melee's balance in this video vs the previous ones. A fair criticism is a lack of character diversity in high level play vs it affecting casual gameplay at all. Good on yall for learning
i feel like they almost got it but lost it again when they decided to start ignoring the objective points brought up for melee and suddenly start saying that the WHOLE thing is subjective. it feels like a convenient copout after Melee's win against AC (which should have been a blowout in Melee's favor), especially since Jared got eviscerated in post after the popularity numbers were posted for Melee and Animal Crossing. I think they could definitely improve.
singular on1 are you seriously comparing the big characters from melee to ultimate? Are you aware that they changed how they play between games. Based on your comment you didn’t know that
@@Shoddragon I think overall they did a much better job in this episode than the previous one and agree with op. Last episode I felt like many comments, mostly by Jared, were just wrong. At least this time around he gave more reasoning.
This series has, more than the other series with there respective topics, really highlighted just how many great games there where on the gamecube. Thank you for the awesome show!
Would totally buy that shirt. Really loved this episode, it felt a lot less serious and more fun compared to past ones, remembering that really its all subjective and it doesn't matter. Keep up the good work
One thing people often forget about Paper Mario TTYD is the backtracking aspect, especially in Chapter 4 and right before Chapter 7. Thats something that definitely feels like a drag.
I know this is 9 months later but that's the entire point of the blue pipe shortcuts for chapter 7. Chapter 4, without going into any spoilers, the way that it plays out, it's meant to make you feel trapped like everything has been taken from you and you're trying to get yourself back. I remember being really pissed at chapter 4 as a kid but it was one of the most satisfying things ever when I finally completed that chapter, especially because at first that chapter felt like it was going to be way too easy and way too short. That being said, I have smash ultimate. I have over 500 hours of melee myself and would have friends over all the time, but I have smash ultimate now, I'm older going to college and I don't have much time for multiplayer games, but I wouldn't go back to play melee, smash ultimate is much more polished and balanced in comparison, meanwhile we have yet to get another paper mario game as great as the thousand year door. Thousand year door wins, all the way.
@@MixMasterLar I like It alot. It gets more interesting after the begining for instance I just found a thieves hideout in the desert, Wich is cool! The characters are also pretty charming.
I'm actually surprised it was such a landslide in one direction, but I'm glad since TTYD is such a special game with a cult following to this day. I'd say it's a masterpiece of a title. It nails just about everything it wants to do. I see very few rough edges or negative spots to it.
Melee unlocks were neat, because every character had two triggers for unlocks. You could go do the neat things that each character requires, or you could just play a fuckton of matches, since the secondary unlock option for every character is just "play X matches." I mean, if you went to manually unlock everyone you'd have quite the challenge on your hands, of course, but if you just didn't know how to/weren't able to, you could just keep playing and the game would solve the problem itself.
I'm not a competitive player or a Melee diehard, but I'm very surprised at how many people side with Paper Mario. I don't think I'll ever forget the feeling of seeing Melee for the first time and being in awe that it existed. Smash 64 was out and sure that was incredible, but Melee really cemented what the series was and was such an improvement over 64. So much of gaming history was together for an incredibly addicting game that can be played 100 different ways. It was a party game, a competitive game, and a museum of Nintendo history. I think everyones been so spoiled now by current iterations of Smash that have so much content, but when Melee came out, it blew my mind. Paper Mario is a fantastic game, but it just doesn't have that "importance" for lack of a better word. Smash games are a HUGE deal, and for great reason. I haven't played Melee in years and years, but I can't deny its importance in gaming history and my life specifically.
6:44 after this whole season I just now realized those are shoes in the background😅 I had thought they were shirts stacked to show that pattern Those are really cool looking shoes
I really enjoyed the points brought up against both games. Melee, with all of its fun gameplay, characters, stages, etc., is a bit rough around the edges, It's argueably one of my favorites on the consoles. HOWEVER, a great point was brought up. A life-changing one hour game vs. a fun game that can be played for hundreds of hours. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is one of my favorite RPG's ever. It takes everything great about the first game and makes it better. The characters, environments, music... All of it is astounding. Makes me want to go back and play the game again someday. Glad Paper Mario won.
Yknow, I think it would be better if yall didnt do grand finals if you ever bring Madness back. It just felt like everyone had ran out of things to talk about.
Honestly after this great finale. I cannot fault anyone for their decisions during this episode. Both are amazing games for different reasons and after a long time thinking I came to my own answer that I am totally satisfied with. While they did not quite understand the pure impact Melee had in bringing Smash Bros to the map and making it one of the great Nintendo franchises. They still tried their best in understanding what it gives to the players and gave it the fair chance it deserves. Thousand year door in the other hand they totally did get what made it click with the players and managed to get through why it is one of the greatest games of all time. Honestly both of them do deserve the number 1 spot. If you had a Gamecube, you had Melee. If you played thousand year door. No RPG would ever feel the same again.
I think you guys are making a mistake calling multiplayer the "Essence of the Gamecube" partially because it was the same rationale used in the N64. I'd say Multiplayer is the essence of Nintendo itself.
I think you guys are doing great this season, but I feel like what you all try a bit too hard to do is DIRECTLY compare specific aspects of these games when it's virtually impossible or nonsensical for some matchups (like Melee vs TYD). Instead, I think you all should establish what specific things you VALUE in each game, HOW MUCH you value those things, and then based on those, compare the games based on which one better suits your most important values.
The way Jeff describes coming back to melee feeling odd is the opposite experience I have. When I play the new smash games they feel odd to me, but when I go back and play melee it feels comfortable.
I want to say, I am pleased with the clean language in this episode. I know that sort of thing is not a priority, but it's a really, really nice feeling to be able to share this with my kids. Thank you guys!
I don't get the argument against the "spirit of the console." When comparing two different game types it can be a good point to make. Not that it should be the only point but I don't think it should be outright dismissed.
i think in this episode they wanted to throw objectivity out the window last second because of how poorly they argued in the Melee vs Animal Crossing episode. Remember that Jared got fucking destroyed after claiming AC was more popular than melee once the numbers were edited in during post. Once they started making semi decent points in favor of Melee this episode (staying power, popularity, combo creativity, replayability) they started to immediately downplay them and even say the whole thing is subjective. It feels like if they had someone who actually knows a lot about Melee (and was confident in that knowledge) as a special guest, the arguments would have been much cleaner and nobody would have been allowed to just brush those arguments aside. It likely would have resulted in a close bracket, likely requiring a tie breaker.
Dorinere I was just thinking, in the future why don’t they just avoid the comparison completely and only do separate brackets. “Best of _____ Multiplayer games” and “Best of _____ Single player games”. To clarify I enjoy watching them try to make the comparisons myself, but they said they don’t because it’s difficult and I can imagine prolly feels disingenuous in a way. That’s how I would feel at least. But yeah I totally agree with your point, I think it’s fine so long as it’s not the only point being made.
I can see why it would be a problem in a match up like Banjo Kazooie and Mario but the last two episodes really needed to be more focused on what the console did for its respective generation and they subverted it in a weird way this episode. When PBG was talking about TTYD being a game that older people would play, I thought they were at least going to mention that the GameCube was largely a single player experience console, at least in my opinion.
My main problem with The Thousand Year Door is the amount of backtracking. It really puts games like Metroid to shame. Take Chapter 4 for example. You walk 1: From the village halfway towards the mansion (to get the black key) and back 2: From the village to the mansion and back (you beat Doopliss along the way) 3: From the village to the mansion and back (to learn Doopliss name) 4: To the mansion. Chapter 5 and especially chapter 2 are simularly bad. And let's not talk about the General White quest. Secondly, most of the areas in TTYD are very disconnected, usually connected only by the sewers. This really hurts the world in my opinion. Paper Mario (64) was way better at this. Yes, there is backtracking in PM64, but you usually only walk the same path back and forth once and there's always a decent amount of time between going back and forth. TTYD reuses a lot of areas. Thirdly, the rewards for the Side Quest in TTYD are really, really bad. Some of them are good fun though, but it's such a shame that almost all quests only give you a very small amount of coin That being said, TTYD has a way better battle system and I love both games (finished them both more than 10 times), but the TTYD really drags on some times.
I love how you guys are talking about Melee in the competitive scene in a video only hours/days after EVO dropped Melee. Obviously, this was pre-recorded, but the timing is hilarious to me xD
Yes I would buy that shirt, mainly because it doesn't really matter... We all still love games - just because it was discussed and didn't win an imaginary title, doesn't mean the game is bad. Top job guys!
So let me get this straight, according to Austin's voting Paper Mario beats Melee, Melee beats Animal Crossing, and Animal Crossing beats Paper Mario LOL
Everyone always talks about that one game that is the best experience for them and thousand year door is especially for me. No other game will take its spot for me as favorite game ever made. Story, gameplay, characters, and humor are near perfect.
I can’t wait for the exhibition matches like best flight sim, best rare/pricey game, best hidden gem, best racing game, and best shooter. I hope they do some of these types of matches
Almost every verdict in this season was what I was hoping for--Paper Mario winning above all, Wind Waker coming in second, etc. This was a really good season.
20 hours. For some reason, I still remember that. Edit: I'm talking about unlocking Mewtwo, if that wasn't clear. Edit 2: I love Melee, and I've put a lot of time into it also. It was the game I got with my GameCube. But I would have to agree that Paper Mario is better. It left a more special memory with me. It''s just that it's so good, has tons of humor, and so many memorable moments. I honestly can't complain that it beat the other games. Out of the other games on the list, I would probably put Wind Waker as number 2. Though, I think I like WW more than PM. So I guess just assuming PM is number 1, then WW is definitely number 2. Other games that deserve to be at or near the top are The Twin Snakes, RE4, F-Zero GX, Viewtiful Joe 1 & 2, Fire Emblem: PoR, and Luigi's Mansion. Sunshine and Double Dash too. So many great games on the system though. Edit 3: Why is Shane only in 2 thumbnails on this whole channel? And one of them is the drunk video. Did he demand whoever edit's the thumbnails to not use his face or something? I don't get it.
I know this series isn't quite finished yet, but I have to say it has been a great series. Maybe it's because I grew up with the game cube, but I have really enjoyed this series. Also on a completely off topic note, I'd love to the five people here casted in the next series of PBG"s Minecraft HC.
when i saw the bracket I thought that either smash, windwaker, or RE:4 would win but in the end you can never tell whats gonna happen because of all the Madness
This is tough matchup. Good video and stuff. One point I really dislike was about speed running. Shane was comparing tech changing is ssbm to speed run tech changing in paper mario saying that the game isn't the same every time. Speed run tech has virtually nothing to do with gameplay it has to do with the most efficient play and time saves. The fact that a game has a speed running community is not really a positive or negative for a game. It doesn't have much of anything to do with the quality of the game they speed run.
Counter point to that: It matters that characters are different even with items on as access and utility of items is very different. Plus variety on top of variety is always a good thing to have available.
It was talked around, but never really labeled. The argument seems to me to be author creativity vs. audience creativity. In one game, we have something refined with lots of clever and unique ideas coming from the developers that definitely deserves to be remembered. In the other, we have something truly brought to life by the determination and joy of the fans, despite the creator’s wishes. I love me some opposites. :)
A well deserved win to Paper Mario! I loved Melee during its heyday, but with Smash Bros Ultimate, I've absolutely no reason to return to previous Smash games. Whereas I STILL love Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door to this day and plan to play it again real soon.
Honestly not too surprised on how this one went. I get Melee was groundbreaking in a sense, I feel most of the reason it is still relevant competitively is because it had a lot of exploitable things, and many still in it stay with it because they either done want to learn something new, and/or just don’t want to change what they’ve already invested so much time into.
Will be willing to buy a "This is Madness and Nothing Matters" merch, as long as it's on a comfortable, colorful shirt, and not a scratchy, black hoodie.
Literally do a season of Madness where all 5 of you put two of your favourite games from any console into a bracket. That'd be madness, but you aren't allowed to vote if your game is on the table, so if its a 1v1 its two people convincing the other 3 why they should vote for their game, if its a 1v1v1 its 3 people convincing 2 people that could be decided by a tiebreaker if two separate games were voted for by having the person whos game wasn't voted for make a tie-breaking vote. If you have your two games fighting each other or two games in a 1v1v1 then its just neutral rules.
I played through TTYD a few months ago so I have no nostalgia for the game. My only complaint about the game is the backtracking is a bit excessive. Like in Chapter 4 in Twilit Town, there's a lot of walking back and forth between the town and the chapel with a lot of nothingness between. And Chapter 7, trying to find the guy to fire the cannon, you have to run all over the world searching for specific NPCs to advance the quest, then discover he was in the snow area the entire time. Aside that, I love it. Combat system amazing, partners, story, graphics, mechanics, etc. are all amazing. I guess you could say it's a pretty easy game, I didn't spend any time grinding levels, except spending like 20 minutes to get a couple of those golden flower enemies in Twilit Town bc they give you 30 points per battle. But ya, all the bosses are super easy except for the final boss and the Pit of 100. 10/10 game tho
That’s right. It was obvious from the start, amazing OST even better than Melee’s to be honest, great writing, characters, environments, fun combat system and no lows for me. I’m a proud deepthroater for TTYD. Thanks for the good content guys.
Jeff brings up a great point that no one seemed to acknowledge .. if you were to play a game now what would it be? Easily paper Mario wins that because it’s a better made game.. smash is fun, and it’s gotten better over time, but as far as a GameCube game Paper Mario wins it, because you can play it and it still holds up 15+ years later
Eternal Darkness needs a showmatch! And also to come up in the honourable mentions, alongside one or two of the traditional fighters like DBZ B2 or Soul Cal 2
Instead of doing a losers bracket and a grand finals can we just get the brackets to 16 total? This way it’s always a 1v1 and each game really gets a fair shake in the argument. Maybe do 12 from the polls and you all pick the remaining 4? I know time was a big reason against doing 16, but the losers bracket and grand finals takes just as long if not longer and so many of the same arguments keep getting made. I just think this would be a way more streamlined process. Love you guys!
Jeff offhand mentions that Melee doesn't hold up. But if there was never a smash game after Melee, he'd probably say it still holds up to this day super well. It's just that the new games run and play better to anyone who isn't explicitly obsessed over the deep mechanics of the game, so Melee feels "weird" to him as a result lol. It's interesting seeing how sequels can shape your opinions on old games.
I think how I compare these games, considering they are both very good in their respective genre, is how well they hold up/ would you go back and play them. Smash is primarily held up by it's competitive scene, and not much else, if anything. The only reason to play Smash is to play competitively because of it's more complex controls. Whereas with Paper Mario you would return to for it's story, humor, characters, etc. There are more reasons to return to Paper Mario vs. Smash.
> someone says anything remotely negative about thousand year door
Shane: I don’t agree with that
Same here. No matter how hard I try, I can't see the flaws it supposedly has.
I wouldn't agree with that
My main problem with The Thousand Year Door is the amount of backtracking. It really puts games like Metroid to shame. Take Chapter 4 for example. You walk
1: From the village halfway towards the mansion (to get the black key) and back
2: From the village to the mansion and back (you beat Doopliss along the way)
3: From the village to the mansion and back (to learn Doopliss name)
4: To the mansion.
And all this is if you know what you're doing. If you get stuck, things get even worse.
I'd also like to note that there's very little on the path towards the mansion. There's like 2 enemies on the path towards the forest and 2 enemies in the forest or something.
Chapter 5 and especially chapter 2 are simularly bad. And let's not talk about the General White quest. (the quest that let's you use the cannon in between chapter 6 and 7)
Having said all this, Paper Mario TTYD is still my favorite Gamecube game, but it definitely has flaws.
I mean same. TTYD is a damn great game.
Something else I think that makes me not like Paper Mario besides the backtracking is the fact that it doesn’t have anything close to a party composition element that I consider inseparable from almost every RPG (except perhaps Fable). All it would have needed is to add one more to the party size. The Mario +1 just doesn’t work for me.
Jared becoming increasingly distressed with every thumbnail is my favourite thing about this series.
That... Did not age well
This season of Madness has mainly reminded me just how good the GameCube's lineup was and that I want a Paper Mario game on the Switch.
I think you mean a GOOD Paper Mario game on Switch.
@@AlienoidNovace Super paper mario is the best in the series
@@benkaplan9251 n...no.
@@AlienoidNovace Yes.
Heck yes
Coming from a person who plays a lot of smash bros competitively, I do not like when people say there's a way the game is "meant to be played". The way you should play it is whatever way you have the most fun. You like playing with items and on Big Blue fighting over which car you like the most, then freaking do it! You want to play competitive with no items, go ahead! There is no single way to play the game, and that's one of the reasons the game is so damn special. You can play this game with anyone regardless of skill level, and then play until your hands fall off :D
Except you cant just play with anyone, I doubt most competitive players will be fine with playing with all items on and on any stage that's not final destination. If they lose they'll complain and say the RNG of the items is why they lost.
Source: me and a friend who plays competitive. He played a casual match with me and then complain about losing because items and stage hazards were on, blamed his loss on those.
Hanako is best girl Well, too bad but your friend is immature to be salty about a casual games. For my experience, I’ve never found anyone in competitive play thats not down to just have fun. Obviously, its not absolutely everyone, but thats always the case with anything. I play with lots of friends casual smash games (brawl, Smash 4, Ultimate, 64, you name it) every day, even though I know competitive melee, and we all still have the best days ever. The guy of this comment is very right, that a very cool thing of smash is you can play however you feel like it with friends. Your friend would just look immature if he gets salty about playing a game for fun with other friends.
@@hanakoisbestgirl4752 I love to play 1vs1,but i also love to play with Items and random character and stages
@@hanakoisbestgirl4752 You should watch Alpharad's Casual Invitational. Watching a bunch of pro smash players playing with items on and hazards active is one of the best things ever.
@@hanakoisbestgirl4752 on an unrelated note DAMN RIGHT hanako is best girl!!!!!!!!!
I liked how Jeff came out of his shell more and more as this series went on. This was easily his best episode imo.
Where the last 2 seasons had someone who was too loud, he had the opposite problem and improved over time. Props to him.
Agreed!!
He looks like he's methed out
Austin is Rock Paper Scissors this season.
AC > PM
SSM > AC
PM > SSM
I love it.
If Paper Mario: TTYD got a rerelease on the Switch I would definitely play it.
I replay it every year on GameCube, it's pure bliss.
Cough cough dolphin emulator cough cough
@@biffyguybiffy6292 Yeah i have it in that too
But i what to play when im in the train when i go to work "on the go"
Biffyguy Biffy Yeah no shit
Just emulate it
Digging Jeff's beanie, perfect balance between looking like a grandma's and a rastafarian's
LoL gotta show the hair. It's to look rad and not really to keep u warm
First Melee gets kicked from Evo and now this. Melee cannot win this week.
It hasn't aged well anyways. lol
Garmr Murphy it aged amazingly well
I respect people liking the game, I like it myself.
But the camera is kinda jank, it's limited to a 4:3 AR at 480p, you have no control options, it has a number of glitches and the fighters are unbalanced.
So as fun as it may be, I think it's save to say it objectively didn't age well.
Garmr Murphy isn’t it actually 480i?
No, 480p is correct, Melee could do that.
The problem is you can't see the true beauty of melee until you can experience it at a high level. Once you understand the depth of the game it will blow your mind exactly how much effort was put into melee.
Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door has my vote!
Jared looks like a super wealthy young-genius British novlist in this episode.
He looks like he's in the middle of writing his new book after spending the summer in France with an unknown romantic liaison.
Replace France with Germany and your hitting the nail on the head.
Here's a thought, maybe instead of doing madness tournaments on gsmes of consoles, do games of a genre, I see so many madness episodes that have to do these comparisons of single player vs multiplayer, or rpg vs platformer, maybe put together similar games to draw more argument points. People have probably said this before lol
People would rather see a look at the best games on a system then best games of a genre so how about best games of a specific genre on a system like best RPGs on the snes or best shooters on the xbox
How about best game in a franchise? Comparing every game in that series
This need more likes so they'll do it
@@AlphaladZXA I think that works for certain genres, but that also makes the task much longer as there would many many brackets for all the genres on the consoles they work on, we would have like 4 brackets on snes alone.
@@JetWolfEX that might work for similar genres, but the size would not let a lot of series for the 12 bracket format if they still wanna do that. And some are so big and diverse, mostly Mario and Pokemon, that it would have the same problems in judgement with all the spinoffs
I'm really glad that Madness is back, love this series and excited for more
I feel an issue that comes up a lot in Madness with these very different games, is that the cast will continue struggling to find similar points between them, which creates unfair comparisons. "Paper Mario and Smash both have fighting, and Smash has better fighting, so point for Smash" is terribly unfair. Rather than comparing what's the same about both games, which never ends up being very much, they should have been comparing the different techniques the games use to tackle the same problems, such as repetitiveness (which they brought up but didn't really say anything worthwhile about). They touched on this concept earlier, saying how the shooting in Metroid wasn't as important as it was in RE, for instance, but that way of thinking never really stuck.
Ultimately I agree with the result, but I think the way they get there is still a bit shaky. This season's improved a lot over the past couple, but I'd love to see it go even further next time.
I am unsure how we could possibly fix this, given the format of the show and the realities we have to film around
To be fair on the combat point, they literally state right after that point: "Yeah, cause it's a fighting game vs an RPG." Lee even shrugged and commented that he was just trying. It wasn't a good point, thus it didn't stick.
That said, I agree with the rest of your point. I think they are trying, but it becomes hard because there is no way to say one is better than the other. Especially in a situation like this. A fighting party game that has a competitive aspect to it versus a single-player RPG. They don't have much overlap in any aspect, even from a technical perspective.
@@ForrestFurst I don't think it's a problem with the matchups themselves, but rather the way the team is approaching them. A single player vs a multiplayer game is fine, for instance - sometimes they ought to be compared - but fishing for similarities where they don't really exist isn't the best way to compare them.
I'll reiterate that I think the best way to compare those sorts of games is with similar challenges that they face, rather than the similar things that they do (or lack thereof). Ask questions like "how do these two games both manage to outshine their successors" or "what qualities keep these games from becoming stale", instead of weighing similar aspects of each game that matter far more to one than the other.
I don't think the show is completely void of this way of thinking; I've definitely noticed it a lot in this season in particular. I just think it's a direction of discussion that's a bit lacking in the areas that need it the most. Don't get me wrong, I really do love the show, so forgive my big rant. It's just that I'd like to see the thing I love continue to grow and surpass itself - a sentiment I think we can share about a lot of these games and franchises when we criticize them.
@@geminimaxxim When we compared these games to other games in their franchise in the past, we got complaints about that. No matter what we do, it's going to piss someone off lol
Not saying your suggestions are bad. It's just, having looked at all of the feedback we've gotten over the past 8 months, we just can't win. We're doing our best.
@@ForrestFurst That's a fair perspective. I'm no professional game reviewer or anything, so I'm not exactly an expert on the right way to do it. My point to begin with was mostly that the "these games both have shooting" approach probably isn't the best one. Good for a laugh, absolutely, but not always the most insightful tool for comparison.
Regardless of the winner the results are still great, Melee and Paper Mario are both top 3 games for the Gamecube for me.
No doubt!
Paper Mario is my favorite GameCube game 🙂
Yeah, it's a really good game
That's awesome. Sonic adventure 2 battle my favorite GameCube game. Though it's a GameCube port of a dreamcast game.
@aj schottyes. I like Sa2b multiplayer mode better than Chao garden,but ya the Chao garden the reason I still enjoy the single player mode.
F for Melee and EVO
Rip
Jeff over here lookin' like the Terminator for half the vid
Best season of Madness easily, great discussions and great lineup of guests, nailed it boys!
You all did a much better job addressing Melee's balance in this video vs the previous ones. A fair criticism is a lack of character diversity in high level play vs it affecting casual gameplay at all. Good on yall for learning
i feel like they almost got it but lost it again when they decided to start ignoring the objective points brought up for melee and suddenly start saying that the WHOLE thing is subjective. it feels like a convenient copout after Melee's win against AC (which should have been a blowout in Melee's favor), especially since Jared got eviscerated in post after the popularity numbers were posted for Melee and Animal Crossing. I think they could definitely improve.
To be fair having top 8 characters is a lot for a competitive game. Especially for its time without patches.
@singular on1 ultimate is more balanced though. i dare you to go back to melee and try to fight a level 9 fox using bowser. you will get creamed
singular on1 are you seriously comparing the big characters from melee to ultimate? Are you aware that they changed how they play between games. Based on your comment you didn’t know that
@@Shoddragon I think overall they did a much better job in this episode than the previous one and agree with op. Last episode I felt like many comments, mostly by Jared, were just wrong. At least this time around he gave more reasoning.
This series has, more than the other series with there respective topics, really highlighted just how many great games there where on the gamecube. Thank you for the awesome show!
Thanks for bringing these back guys
I'm so happy with this result you guys
Guys, do we get a special edition of Madness for...well, March Madness? Haha
Would totally buy that shirt. Really loved this episode, it felt a lot less serious and more fun compared to past ones, remembering that really its all subjective and it doesn't matter. Keep up the good work
One thing people often forget about Paper Mario TTYD is the backtracking aspect, especially in Chapter 4 and right before Chapter 7. Thats something that definitely feels like a drag.
I know this is 9 months later but that's the entire point of the blue pipe shortcuts for chapter 7. Chapter 4, without going into any spoilers, the way that it plays out, it's meant to make you feel trapped like everything has been taken from you and you're trying to get yourself back. I remember being really pissed at chapter 4 as a kid but it was one of the most satisfying things ever when I finally completed that chapter, especially because at first that chapter felt like it was going to be way too easy and way too short.
That being said, I have smash ultimate. I have over 500 hours of melee myself and would have friends over all the time, but I have smash ultimate now, I'm older going to college and I don't have much time for multiplayer games, but I wouldn't go back to play melee, smash ultimate is much more polished and balanced in comparison, meanwhile we have yet to get another paper mario game as great as the thousand year door. Thousand year door wins, all the way.
You guys got me to play Paper Mario 64 for the first time last week.
How you like it?
@@MixMasterLar I like It alot. It gets more interesting after the begining for instance I just found a thieves hideout in the desert, Wich is cool! The characters are also pretty charming.
I'm actually surprised it was such a landslide in one direction, but I'm glad since TTYD is such a special game with a cult following to this day. I'd say it's a masterpiece of a title. It nails just about everything it wants to do. I see very few rough edges or negative spots to it.
I wish people voted timesplitters 2 because it is by far my favorite multiplayer gamecube
I like the first one only because the single player is better, but the second is amazing too!
I would've gone for timesplitters future perfect instead because of it's fun singleplayer and multiplayer
If you like Time Splitters I hear THQ Nordic bought up the license, so they might come out with a remaster or even a new game!
Wow I’m pleasantly surprised that Paper Marip TTYD won. That’s amazing. What a game
I like how the wide shots of the case here slowly zoom in and out, it looks nice and keeps the wide shots even more interesting :D
Love the discussions! Great series.
Please put a poll in the description so we can vote on our favorite games that you argue over.
Melee unlocks were neat, because every character had two triggers for unlocks. You could go do the neat things that each character requires, or you could just play a fuckton of matches, since the secondary unlock option for every character is just "play X matches." I mean, if you went to manually unlock everyone you'd have quite the challenge on your hands, of course, but if you just didn't know how to/weren't able to, you could just keep playing and the game would solve the problem itself.
I'm not a competitive player or a Melee diehard, but I'm very surprised at how many people side with Paper Mario. I don't think I'll ever forget the feeling of seeing Melee for the first time and being in awe that it existed. Smash 64 was out and sure that was incredible, but Melee really cemented what the series was and was such an improvement over 64. So much of gaming history was together for an incredibly addicting game that can be played 100 different ways. It was a party game, a competitive game, and a museum of Nintendo history. I think everyones been so spoiled now by current iterations of Smash that have so much content, but when Melee came out, it blew my mind. Paper Mario is a fantastic game, but it just doesn't have that "importance" for lack of a better word. Smash games are a HUGE deal, and for great reason. I haven't played Melee in years and years, but I can't deny its importance in gaming history and my life specifically.
6:44 after this whole season I just now realized those are shoes in the background😅 I had thought they were shirts stacked to show that pattern
Those are really cool looking shoes
I really enjoyed the points brought up against both games.
Melee, with all of its fun gameplay, characters, stages, etc., is a bit rough around the edges, It's argueably one of my favorites on the consoles. HOWEVER, a great point was brought up.
A life-changing one hour game vs. a fun game that can be played for hundreds of hours.
Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door is one of my favorite RPG's ever. It takes everything great about the first game and makes it better. The characters, environments, music... All of it is astounding. Makes me want to go back and play the game again someday.
Glad Paper Mario won.
Yknow, I think it would be better if yall didnt do grand finals if you ever bring Madness back. It just felt like everyone had ran out of things to talk about.
Honestly after this great finale. I cannot fault anyone for their decisions during this episode. Both are amazing games for different reasons and after a long time thinking I came to my own answer that I am totally satisfied with. While they did not quite understand the pure impact Melee had in bringing Smash Bros to the map and making it one of the great Nintendo franchises. They still tried their best in understanding what it gives to the players and gave it the fair chance it deserves. Thousand year door in the other hand they totally did get what made it click with the players and managed to get through why it is one of the greatest games of all time. Honestly both of them do deserve the number 1 spot. If you had a Gamecube, you had Melee. If you played thousand year door. No RPG would ever feel the same again.
I think you guys are making a mistake calling multiplayer the "Essence of the Gamecube" partially because it was the same rationale used in the N64. I'd say Multiplayer is the essence of Nintendo itself.
@aj schott I own both. I'm going to disagree with that.
I think that’s a bullshit argument.
Who cares about the essence of the GameCube? If it’s a shit game, it’s a shit game.
Instead of “replayability” I always look at it as “do I get bored before the game runs out of new content”.
When is the Wii list being created?
How do we vote on it?
I think you guys are doing great this season, but I feel like what you all try a bit too hard to do is DIRECTLY compare specific aspects of these games when it's virtually impossible or nonsensical for some matchups (like Melee vs TYD).
Instead, I think you all should establish what specific things you VALUE in each game, HOW MUCH you value those things, and then based on those, compare the games based on which one better suits your most important values.
The way Jeff describes coming back to melee feeling odd is the opposite experience I have. When I play the new smash games they feel odd to me, but when I go back and play melee it feels comfortable.
Nah going from Ultimate back to Melee was rough at first…
I want to say, I am pleased with the clean language in this episode. I know that sort of thing is not a priority, but it's a really, really nice feeling to be able to share this with my kids. Thank you guys!
I don't get the argument against the "spirit of the console." When comparing two different game types it can be a good point to make. Not that it should be the only point but I don't think it should be outright dismissed.
i think in this episode they wanted to throw objectivity out the window last second because of how poorly they argued in the Melee vs Animal Crossing episode. Remember that Jared got fucking destroyed after claiming AC was more popular than melee once the numbers were edited in during post. Once they started making semi decent points in favor of Melee this episode (staying power, popularity, combo creativity, replayability) they started to immediately downplay them and even say the whole thing is subjective. It feels like if they had someone who actually knows a lot about Melee (and was confident in that knowledge) as a special guest, the arguments would have been much cleaner and nobody would have been allowed to just brush those arguments aside. It likely would have resulted in a close bracket, likely requiring a tie breaker.
Dorinere I was just thinking, in the future why don’t they just avoid the comparison completely and only do separate brackets. “Best of _____ Multiplayer games” and “Best of _____ Single player games”. To clarify I enjoy watching them try to make the comparisons myself, but they said they don’t because it’s difficult and I can imagine prolly feels disingenuous in a way. That’s how I would feel at least. But yeah I totally agree with your point, I think it’s fine so long as it’s not the only point being made.
I can see why it would be a problem in a match up like Banjo Kazooie and Mario but the last two episodes really needed to be more focused on what the console did for its respective generation and they subverted it in a weird way this episode.
When PBG was talking about TTYD being a game that older people would play, I thought they were at least going to mention that the GameCube was largely a single player experience console, at least in my opinion.
I do not envy trying to discuss these games against each other. Nice job!
My main problem with The Thousand Year Door is the amount of backtracking.
It really puts games like Metroid to shame.
Take Chapter 4 for example. You walk
1: From the village halfway towards the mansion (to get the black key) and back
2: From the village to the mansion and back (you beat Doopliss along the way)
3: From the village to the mansion and back (to learn Doopliss name)
4: To the mansion.
Chapter 5 and especially chapter 2 are simularly bad. And let's not talk about the General White quest.
Secondly, most of the areas in TTYD are very disconnected, usually connected only by the sewers. This really hurts the world in my opinion.
Paper Mario (64) was way better at this. Yes, there is backtracking in PM64, but you usually only walk the same path back and forth once and there's always a decent amount of time between going back and forth. TTYD reuses a lot of areas.
Thirdly, the rewards for the Side Quest in TTYD are really, really bad. Some of them are good fun though, but it's such a shame that almost all quests only give you a very small amount of coin
That being said, TTYD has a way better battle system and I love both games (finished them both more than 10 times), but the TTYD really drags on some times.
I love how you guys are talking about Melee in the competitive scene in a video only hours/days after EVO dropped Melee. Obviously, this was pre-recorded, but the timing is hilarious to me xD
Paper Mario TTYD as the best GameCube game is completely respectable. TTYD, Wind Waker and Melee were the peak of the GameCube imo
Cough cough Prime cough cough.
Yes I would buy that shirt, mainly because it doesn't really matter... We all still love games - just because it was discussed and didn't win an imaginary title, doesn't mean the game is bad.
Top job guys!
This was a great season. Lots of poor Peebs feeling flustered and surprising comparisons.
Next season should be about the Mario RPGs.
That would b rad. Super Mario RPG would take my vote as #1
For Paper Mario to win again and have nostalgic choice SMRPG be up there as well? Talk about predictable.
So let me get this straight, according to Austin's voting Paper Mario beats Melee, Melee beats Animal Crossing, and Animal Crossing beats Paper Mario LOL
Everyone always talks about that one game that is the best experience for them and thousand year door is especially for me. No other game will take its spot for me as favorite game ever made. Story, gameplay, characters, and humor are near perfect.
I can't believe it, my favorite game ever actually won. I didn't expect this to happen. That's all I wanted out of this series.
Paper Mario forever!
I can't either! Pretty hype stuff
I can’t wait for the exhibition matches like best flight sim, best rare/pricey game, best hidden gem, best racing game, and best shooter. I hope they do some of these types of matches
Almost every verdict in this season was what I was hoping for--Paper Mario winning above all, Wind Waker coming in second, etc. This was a really good season.
20 hours. For some reason, I still remember that.
Edit: I'm talking about unlocking Mewtwo, if that wasn't clear.
Edit 2: I love Melee, and I've put a lot of time into it also. It was the game I got with my GameCube. But I would have to agree that Paper Mario is better. It left a more special memory with me. It''s just that it's so good, has tons of humor, and so many memorable moments. I honestly can't complain that it beat the other games. Out of the other games on the list, I would probably put Wind Waker as number 2. Though, I think I like WW more than PM. So I guess just assuming PM is number 1, then WW is definitely number 2. Other games that deserve to be at or near the top are The Twin Snakes, RE4, F-Zero GX, Viewtiful Joe 1 & 2, Fire Emblem: PoR, and Luigi's Mansion. Sunshine and Double Dash too. So many great games on the system though.
Edit 3: Why is Shane only in 2 thumbnails on this whole channel? And one of them is the drunk video. Did he demand whoever edit's the thumbnails to not use his face or something? I don't get it.
I know this series isn't quite finished yet, but I have to say it has been a great series. Maybe it's because I grew up with the game cube, but I have really enjoyed this series. Also on a completely off topic note, I'd love to the five people here casted in the next series of PBG"s Minecraft HC.
I LOVE how PBG voted for Animal Crossing over Paper Mario, then voted for Smash over Animal Crossing, then voted for Paper Mario over Smash LMAO
when i saw the bracket I thought that either smash, windwaker, or RE:4 would win but in the end you can never tell whats gonna happen because of all the Madness
This is tough matchup. Good video and stuff. One point I really dislike was about speed running. Shane was comparing tech changing is ssbm to speed run tech changing in paper mario saying that the game isn't the same every time. Speed run tech has virtually nothing to do with gameplay it has to do with the most efficient play and time saves. The fact that a game has a speed running community is not really a positive or negative for a game. It doesn't have much of anything to do with the quality of the game they speed run.
Counter point to items on: why bother making movesets for characters if all they’re gonna do is pick up and throw items?
Counter point to that: It matters that characters are different even with items on as access and utility of items is very different. Plus variety on top of variety is always a good thing to have available.
@@tuvyamaeir4684 tbh, characters aren't better or worse with items as each character uses items the same way.
Every time the camera focuses to Jared, I see that controller thing with a built in keyboard and it makes me more curious about it.
Cdi Zeldas vs worst sonic games...Madness!
Zelda would win by a long shot
@@victormasih4768 A bad Sonic game is still playable.
Sonic wins, but CDi Zeldas are far from the worst games I've played. Except Zelda's Adventure. That game is probably the worst game I've ever played.
@singular on1 exactly.
@@ygsr far from the worst? what kind of dumb kid school project video games do you play to say the cdi games are not the worst?
The essence of Normal Boots Madness is PBG.
It was talked around, but never really labeled. The argument seems to me to be author creativity vs. audience creativity. In one game, we have something refined with lots of clever and unique ideas coming from the developers that definitely deserves to be remembered. In the other, we have something truly brought to life by the determination and joy of the fans, despite the creator’s wishes.
I love me some opposites. :)
I love how Austin still takes every opportunity to bring in Animal Crossing into the topic.
Shoutout to Brownman for the hat
twitch.tv/brownman
Around everyone else Shane looks like an mma fighter.
A well deserved win to Paper Mario! I loved Melee during its heyday, but with Smash Bros Ultimate, I've absolutely no reason to return to previous Smash games. Whereas I STILL love Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door to this day and plan to play it again real soon.
Honestly not too surprised on how this one went. I get Melee was groundbreaking in a sense, I feel most of the reason it is still relevant competitively is because it had a lot of exploitable things, and many still in it stay with it because they either done want to learn something new, and/or just don’t want to change what they’ve already invested so much time into.
Will be willing to buy a "This is Madness and Nothing Matters" merch, as long as it's on a comfortable, colorful shirt, and not a scratchy, black hoodie.
Literally do a season of Madness where all 5 of you put two of your favourite games from any console into a bracket. That'd be madness, but you aren't allowed to vote if your game is on the table, so if its a 1v1 its two people convincing the other 3 why they should vote for their game, if its a 1v1v1 its 3 people convincing 2 people that could be decided by a tiebreaker if two separate games were voted for by having the person whos game wasn't voted for make a tie-breaking vote. If you have your two games fighting each other or two games in a 1v1v1 then its just neutral rules.
Metroid prime won ! yeah i know i was surprised too
I played through TTYD a few months ago so I have no nostalgia for the game. My only complaint about the game is the backtracking is a bit excessive. Like in Chapter 4 in Twilit Town, there's a lot of walking back and forth between the town and the chapel with a lot of nothingness between. And Chapter 7, trying to find the guy to fire the cannon, you have to run all over the world searching for specific NPCs to advance the quest, then discover he was in the snow area the entire time. Aside that, I love it. Combat system amazing, partners, story, graphics, mechanics, etc. are all amazing. I guess you could say it's a pretty easy game, I didn't spend any time grinding levels, except spending like 20 minutes to get a couple of those golden flower enemies in Twilit Town bc they give you 30 points per battle. But ya, all the bosses are super easy except for the final boss and the Pit of 100. 10/10 game tho
I love how sassy Shane sounds way 25:30, I lost it there
That’s right. It was obvious from the start, amazing OST even better than Melee’s to be honest, great writing, characters, environments, fun combat system and no lows for me. I’m a proud deepthroater for TTYD. Thanks for the good content guys.
I have to say, I was rooting for Paper Mario since the start of this season, but I'm surprised It actually won
Dude I miss Madness
Truly the match for the ages. There is no wrong answer here.
After all these years, I really need to play the Thousand Year Door.
Jeff brings up a great point that no one seemed to acknowledge .. if you were to play a game now what would it be? Easily paper Mario wins that because it’s a better made game.. smash is fun, and it’s gotten better over time, but as far as a GameCube game Paper Mario wins it, because you can play it and it still holds up 15+ years later
Give it a cool look and I think a
“This is Madness and it doesn’t matter” shirt WOULD in fact sell.
Listen, I get that this is a really hard comparison between 2 great games, but I can't get over how big Shane's arms are. Like god damn
I just realized Shane isn’t in any of this season’s thumbnails
This should have been Legend of Zelda Windwaker and Metroid Prime
6:50 Hammy got a temporary Terminator eye there woah
Eternal Darkness needs a showmatch! And also to come up in the honourable mentions, alongside one or two of the traditional fighters like DBZ B2 or Soul Cal 2
Instead of doing a losers bracket and a grand finals can we just get the brackets to 16 total? This way it’s always a 1v1 and each game really gets a fair shake in the argument. Maybe do 12 from the polls and you all pick the remaining 4?
I know time was a big reason against doing 16, but the losers bracket and grand finals takes just as long if not longer and so many of the same arguments keep getting made. I just think this would be a way more streamlined process. Love you guys!
Jeff offhand mentions that Melee doesn't hold up. But if there was never a smash game after Melee, he'd probably say it still holds up to this day super well. It's just that the new games run and play better to anyone who isn't explicitly obsessed over the deep mechanics of the game, so Melee feels "weird" to him as a result lol.
It's interesting seeing how sequels can shape your opinions on old games.
Now I know why it took so long for this video: everyone had to go home and change clothes.
My favorite cast member on this show is the fridge in the background
I think how I compare these games, considering they are both very good in their respective genre, is how well they hold up/ would you go back and play them. Smash is primarily held up by it's competitive scene, and not much else, if anything. The only reason to play Smash is to play competitively because of it's more complex controls. Whereas with Paper Mario you would return to for it's story, humor, characters, etc. There are more reasons to return to Paper Mario vs. Smash.
And that's why I have a playthrough of Paper Mario and not of Melee.
Wait Jared so you're saying that the Essence of the N64 (multiplayer) isn't actually that important?
Nice to see the strategy guides got some more variety. Poor Animal Crossing guide, a fav of Austin's. 'Tis no longer with us.
Can we talk about how Jared is a secret JoJo, at the very least has the fashion sense of one?
Did Jeff and Austin enter the room that day and point at each other's hats like the 2 Spider-Man clone meme?