I had it in my head that I never wanted a 14" kick. Until I got one. And there's nothing like a 24"x14" Huge, punchy and quick without being as unwieldy as a 26". 26" feels like you're playing a 1980's waterbed mattress. And the key to the larger sizes coming alive is tightening your reso more than you would think and suddenly the walls start to shake.
My absolute favorite bass drum is my Ludwig (heavy 6-ply late 70s shell) 24x14. I can make that drum as defined and articulate or open/boomy, off-the-chain as I want with tuning, muffling and miking/processing. It's my desert island kick. I also love my 26" as well (1969, 3-ply Ludwig, natural interior -- converted marching bass drum), and yes, you gotta tune those heads up on drums with that much real estate, but the 'boom' is tremendous!!
Can not agree more. I’ve a Lignum birch stave kit with a 24”x14” bassdrum and a 20”x14” bassdrum/floortom … the 24” is the best bassdrum I EVER heard !
So true! My 40-year-old Slingerland kit has two 24x14" bass drums. When I first set it up in my high school band room, the other drummer said, "Wow, these sound like thunder!" They still do, and I've never felt the need to buy another kit. 😄
Wow this was a real eye opener for me! What strikes me the most is the way the 14" kick drum feels a lot tighter and more controlled...the 18" feels almost flabby in comparison. I believe the 18" has extra sustain, but its the sort of sustain I always try to get rid of in my mixes anyway! It just muddies everything. Appreciate this!
Im not a drummer but as an engineer I track a lot of drums. To this date some of the most powerful drums I’ve ever recorded was a DW Frequent Flier kit my buddy had. I wanna say it’s a 20 x 12 kick, 5 x 14 snare and 12 and 14 inch Tom’s. Skin heads with a monster of a player and these little drums sounded absolutely GIGANTIC. To this day I don’t see a need for bigger drums in the studio unless a band specifically wants them, I still think about that kit often. Man I gotta get that guy back in the studio.
Not surprising that smaller drums can be recorded in a way that makes them seem more powerful in the mix. Mic'd and mixed sounds are all relative in ways that the engineer decides. Session great Gary Novak said that he would sometimes use a smaller stick in his left hand (for the backbeat) because the smaller stick made the snare drum sound relatively large on tape. And Todd Sucherman has talked about adjusting the amount of power he uses to hit the drums in the studio because it changes the sound.
Iv got the flyer kit and I sold my higher end dw to keep it. Best kit iv had and the bass drum is so punchy for the size. Also yes it's a 20x12 12x8 14x11
I like the 14. To my ear the 18 sounded deeper but the sound was less "cohesive" than the 14. I ran each section through RTA software with averaging to compare. It appears the 18 has a prominent peak at 43Hz that's 4dB higher than the 14 but from there the output drops like a rock. They both have the same output at 30Hz but at 20Hz, the 14 has 8dB more output but I don't think I heard that through the headphones. Overall the 14 has a smoother response.
If you're performing, sometimes that low end is exactly what you want, even if you can't hear it. You can feel it in your body, and man... talk about visceral.
Made it to the end! And I recently had Zoog trim down my 20x22 to a 14x22 and the difference was night and day. It's easier to tune, The rebound and feel is much more tighter, the thump is more defined and I also gained 6 inches of room back. So it's a win all around. 14 is where it's at.
Excellent video Bro!!! I am a Drummer, Drum- Tech and sound engineer born in the 60's and my favorite and reference kick sound has been Steward Copeland's "walking on the moon" (14x22 Tama Imperialstar). As we moved into the 90's and 2000's I really started missing that sound till I restored a 70's Imperialstar with a 14x22. Then I got a hold of a 92 Tama Prototype kit with prototype Starclassic Maple shells and that kit came with a 18x22, 18x20 and a 14x20! Yes, that was the game changer right there. Hearing those exact bass drums (same shells, same construction) with 4" difference was the best comparrison (as you just showed) and I been searching for 14" deep kicks since as well as cutting down 18" deep kicks to 14", 13" and even 12"!!! Cause it is not only the sound that gets more authority and punch, I find the feel and response of the bass drum so much nicer to play. And as a sound guy I can guarantee you that the shallower kick drums produce that "chest thumping bass" easier than these booming cannons. If you get the opportinity I can highly recommend 13" and 12" deep, especially for 20" or 18" kicks. Again, great video and keep it up👍🏻👍🏻
Wow, I never thought about it until now but "Walking on The Moon'' perfect example of what a 14x22 sounds like! You can feel how shallow that kick is, it's so immediate.
I've been using an 18x16 in kick drum in studio and rock setting for the last 8 years. people always laugh at my little drum set until I mic the thing up and the kick is like a howitzer. I played a 24x16 inch kick for years before making the switch to the small kit and never looked back. I've used the same kit on three different records and 100's of live shows. One of the advantages of small kicks in the fact that it cuts a bit of the bass out and gets it out of the way of the actual bass player in a mix which is what your engineer would typically do anyway so I count that as a plus as well. Great Video! I'm in the market for a new kit so I may just get my next kick with a 20x14.
I still have a Ray Ayotte kit. He was still using Gibraltar hardware for the bass drum spur mounts and floor tom leg mounts. Phenomenal sounding kit. Also 18x22 kick
I gotta say, the difference is much more drastic than I expected. Wow. I too have moved away from 18" kicks to 16" and 14" kicks over the past few years, primarily because the feel better under foot to me, but I didn't realize how much the depth affected the sound! Awesome video, man, thanks for that.
As I understand it (and could be wrong), the 14" depth for bass drums was selected because it would fit through the doors of closets (40s, 50s 60s) homes for storage. The drum industry is driven a bit like the fashion industry where it periodically pushes a new trend to make their older designs appear outdated and drive new purchases (the old saying no change, no gain). Anyway thanks for this is a great comparison.
I've been playing for 35 years and played all different size bass drum till I bought a set of ddrums with a 22x20 deep and it's an absolute monster of a bass drum and everyone who I play with can't believe how good my bass drum sounds along with the rest of the drums.
You're speaking my language, man! I've been preaching this for years, especially when metal drummers ask me to build 22" kicks that are 20" deep and mount triggers, because I could instead just make them a 24" kick that's 10" deep, and they won't need triggers, because the drum will already sound like they want it to! Anyway, great video, man!
I love the approach that you take when testing. I have been playing for 58 years, and have played several brands of drum sets and sizes of kicks. I always came back to 14" depth bass drums. The last kit that I bought, after being allowed to A-B test several sets, has a 20" kick. As purchased, the kick was a 16" depth and is my favorite bass that I ever owned. It's punchy and authoritative, and super easy to mic up, and works with big band music as well as trio/quartet stuff unmiked. For years I've wanted to have it cut down to 14" depth, but at this stage the cost is not worth the return. I totally love and appreciate what you do and how you do it! Keep it coming! Thank you.
Thank you for the kind words! Yes, 20" drums are quite versatile... head selection and tuning can make them surprisingly 'BIG' sounding! Much easier to carry around too!! Thank you so much for being here and sharing!!
The surprise is how the bigger one makes the snare sound boxy. I was already a fan of 14" kick depth, in fact I use a 26, but I never expected the snare to sound so different.
Super cool. This validates the same felling I had. I recently sold all my 90s 18” deep kits and bought 14”x20” and 14”x 22” kits. I also noticed the drums are more responsive and feel better to play. Thanks for the awesome video!
I've played 14", 16" and 18" deep bass drums, and I really love my 14" deep bass drum the most. Having said that... my 22x18"bass drum also sounds and feels amazing. I'm afraid to cut it down! The old catalog pages and ads took me BACK! Great video man.
Made it to the end.. I can't believe the results. What I get out of this experiment is that tonal wise the diameter changes that the most.. the depth changes the length of the note or sustain. The 18" depth has a clear sustain of the note and hangs around a bit longer while the 14" note hits and is gone much faster resulting in a much harder thump if you will.. interesting stuff. I think my 22"x16" is the perfect blend of these 2 aspects of a kick drum sound to my ears. Thanks for the effort sir.
I have to say you are absolutely right. For years I played a Yamaha 20 x 18 kick I recently switched to a pearl masters 20 x 14 and I could not believe the difference in the sound and also the feel of the bass drum while playing the drums, the 14 is definitely a rounder maybe puncher, but also to my ear is full of sound and kickand the playability of it is just so much better. I absolutely love the 20 x 14.
Joel, this is a great demonstration!!! You really can hear a difference, even on headphones. I wonder what a 4"x14" kick would sound like - Have you done anything with the 4" part of the drum that was cut off? Might be another interesting experiment. I have a 1977 Slingerland 14x24 kick which sounds great!!! I love these videos and appreciate you taking the time to create them!!!
I hope you do an episode like this on the depth of toms. Not just how the depth of say, a 14" diameter tom would sound if it were 10" deep vs 12" deep, but also why we accept a different depth to diameter ratio for rack toms vs floor toms. I'd think to match a 14" x 10", your 16" floor tom would be 16" x 11.5".
You're speaking to a kindred spirit! I have long wondered about the role consistent ratio plays in tom sizes. Floor toms were always (traditionally) so much deeper with respect to rack toms, and I personally struggle more with getting great tones from a 16x16 floor tom than I do any traditional depth rack tom. The 10/12/14 toms that came with the kick I used in this video are going to be the subject of an upcoming video. I have had Zoog cut them down to shallow depths (with similar ratios). I can't do a before/after, since I have already cut the shells down, but I'm wanting to see how shallow toms behave, overall... just generally put them through multiple tunings and muffling to see what they're like. I probably should have done a before/after, but too late now. Would have been a terribly long video if I had anyway, as I plan to do a lot with them as is. Hopefully that will be useful and interesting to folks.
I have a few “short stack” toms and I’ve found that they’re more punchy and seem to sustain a little longer. They also seem to have a quicker response, as well as a fuller sound at lower volumes compared to traditional depths. Great video! Cheers!
Nice overview and comparison. I’ve been playing the drums for 50+ years. I’m not great but just enjoy playing. I’ve owned lots of kits over the years, pretty much all Ludwig or Pearl. I am also a former recording engineer and Studio owner from 1972 until I got out of the business in 1989. I recently decided I wanted to get back into it for my own enjoyment so I built a small music project Studio in our music room in our home. I hadn’t own a drum kit for about 12 years. When I began researching what I wanted to start playing again I was immediately attracted to the Gretsch Catalina Club kits for their warm classic sounding Mahogany Shells and the 14” depth bass drum option. Now having played this kit for about 2 years I have to admit it is such a pleasure. With my previous kits with depth of 16", 18", or even 20", I’ve been moving a lot of air - now I know needlessly. I learned that for a punchy, kick sound, that requires much less effort the 14" x 20" is PERFECT. Lesson learned after all of these years.
Great A/B test! Also worthy to note the deeper kick drum picks up a lot more of the low-tuned snare drum. I’ve noticed this live with my mic’ed 22x18. Sometimes resonates with the bass guitar to the point of LF feedback. Another benefit - the shallower kick drum makes the whole kit sound tighter.
This was an excellent demonstration and the amount of work involved is amazing. Regardless of which side of the coin anyone chooses, you have knocked this out of the park. Thank you!
Love your content Joel and this is no exception (I made it to the end!) Thanks for taking the time to remove all of the 'yeah, but...' variables that would have detracted from the results - I'm sure we all realise just how time consuming this would actually have been to achieve. I also want you to know that I enjoy your videos so much over here in the UK, that when you release a new one, I purposefully wait until I have a cup of tea and some clear space before I start, so I can get the most out of it (a position previously exclusively held by the Drum Centre of Portsmouth in my house!) As for the drum size debate, I totally agree with your findings. I'm 53 and have had pretty much every make of kit in every size from 18" - 24" BD over the years. The size I keep returning to is 20x14 due to it's portability and tuning range. Playing off the head of an undampened Evans EQ3 front and back combo tuned to a medium tension gives massive results. Drop the tension and add some dampening results in a killer thud. I'll leave it there as I'm going on a bit. Keep up the great work and I look forward to the next high quality episode when you can.
I find the note the longer drum produces is more low mid than the impact of true low thump of the shorter drum. It's more a visceral 'feel' rather than anything audible for me. I feel the shorter drum. I hear the deeper drum.
@@drumdotpizza my 22x18 drums have this thick deep punch in the gut thump. My issue is I want a click with all the rumble. I want that attack that I haven't achieved with my 22x14 bass drums. I haven't yet tried a hardwood beater and maybe a thin metal head protector. I love the deep thud, but want the tight top end that cuts through the mix. I know folks are mixing in a triggered bass drum to get the click. I don't have triggers. I am so sick of gear and the need for more. I have so much damn gear, I better be able to figure out how to stick with and get the work done.
@@thomastucker5686 FWIW you should try two mics (if you don't already), one inside to get the click you describe and one outside, in front of the head (not the hole) to get the LF 'umph.' I CAN make a single mic work, but whether recording or playing live I use two mics, so I can dial in as much of each character I want to create the perfect blend.
@@drumdotpizza thank you for the advice. I am running out of inputs and mic stands and cables. I have 12 dedicated drum channels, 4 aux channels left. All drum channels are active. I can do what you suggested eventually. I want a ride cymbal mic, it doesn't come out in the mix, hi hat mic, can't hear that either and now a second kick mic. I have top/bottom snare mics. I would have bottom rack and floor tom mics, but I don't have 24 channels available. I have to prove myself with the gear I own, then improve it over time, or continue with what I have. I have much to learn about recording drums and making it sound huge. Same with all instruments really. Vocals, oh boy.
Though I’m in agreement with the points made, I will say that if you use one of those old fashioned fluffy BD beaters on say a 16” deep/18” diameter (head size) it produces a rich, quiet full sound. Admittedly it’s not at all punchy but for certain types of music, probably not pop or rock, it fills the room with a mellow long note that emphasizes the soft low frequencies.
Hi Joel, I’m 70 and new to drums. I made it to the end and like others really appreciate the content and truth that shines in your story line. You have been as objective as I think one can be. The comparison showed, to me, the “boom” is more and sounds richer in the 18” but shows also the punch that jumps in the 14”. I think both have a place and depends on the music and how you want the drum part to fit in with the complete orchestration of all instruments being utilized. Thanks for the content. As always it is enlightening.
I'm 74 and I've been playing since 1965 and still learning. I started in rock with a garage band and moved over to soft jazz. If you think this is a lot of info, wait until you check out the effect of drum shells - different wood, different thickness, different amount of plies, different covers (wrap, lacquor, etc.) and shell bearing edges (33 degrees vs 45 degrees). Then there are the snare drums with the same content as above PLUS the difference in types of metal, snare wires, snare throw-offs and dimensions. When you think you start to feel confident, you discover the difference in heads'thicknesses, layers, plies and applications. Then the millions of kinds of sticks. Don't forget the brushes! If you play in different venues, you will discover what happens when you play on or off stage, in rooms with carpet and curtains or in halls with no acoustics at all. If you play jazz or rock with acoustic or amplified instruments at different volumes, everything changes. Has your brain exploded yet? Don't panic. It's a wonderful trip that makes amusement parks seem dull. Welcome to the strange world of drummers. We are all fun and crazy. Just recognize that we are all different and there is no single correct answer to anything. Just find out what fits you and scratches your itch.
This was fun. Thank you. I think I get how the 14" might sit prettier in a mix, but really dig the tone from the 18" drum. There are some overtones in the decay that really make my ears happy.
All in the ears of the beholder! I just wanted people to know the difference rather than be guessing. Nothing empirical, of course, but wanted something somewhat scientific to (hopefully) confirm what I have noticed over the last couple of decades. Thanks for being here!!
To me the sound died inside the 18 inch deep drum. It had this anaemic splat sound.... at 14 inches it gave off a nice punchy knock. IMO 14 is where it's at. If you want more resonance and overtones go up in diameter.
Fantastic job on this! I really appreciate your attention to detail and accounting for all of the potential variables. Would love to have heard the kick with individual hits in addition to the context of the grooves but still, this was great. Cheers! -Ben
I've had several 22x18 bass drums and never really loved them. I tried a 26x14 and fell in love. I've since tried to get shallow depth bass drums. I think it has something to do with the shallower depth having less air to move to activate the resonant head. Enjoyed the video, thanks!
Great experiment! I personally play with both an 18x22 in 1 band and 14x24 in another and I like both for their unique qualities. With your experiment of using the same drum at different sizes, I actually preferred the 14 x 22. Good stuff!
As someone who grew up in the 80’s and 90’s playing rock and metal, I had all the big deep drums. I am now on the 14” kick depth bandwagon. Currently using a 26x14, so much better (and easier to haul and place) than the 26x16 and 26x18 I had before. Sounds better too! I will admit for smaller 20/22” kicks, I do like the look of deeper shells though.
Great testing! Younger me really liked the boomy sustain from the longer kicks. Today the shorter is so much more impactful: thunderous and gets out of the way. Perfect
With my eyes closed or open, full length has more sustain and sounds like it's tuned to E whereas the shortened mod sounds like a G. The shortened drum might have a cleaner more focused "note" to it. REALLY INTERESTING VIDEO.
Started out with a 22” x 14” bass drum. Upgraded to 24” x 16” double bass drums. They were still NEVER loud ‘bassy’ enough, and never had the old-school thumpy sound I craved. *So 26” inch it is!*
I’m a street drummer and I got to keep it quiet but punch so I got 22inch from the tip and cut it down to 10. I put deep vintage in the batter and Remo power stroke on the reso. Everyone loves it including the unamped musos. I think the deep and wide bass drums are for heavy rock concert stuff and that’s about it. And yes always go all the way to the end of your vids. You keep it interesting.
The 18” depth lowered the sub frequencies by a whole step. Not sure if it’s worth it though since I usually prefer the playability and the portability of the 14” depth. Maybe 16” depth is the way to go!
They can also be a pain for us sound engineers, deeper kicks can easily muddy up the whole bottom end. Tighter sound is easier to control, there is less ringing and we can use more compression to dig out the snappiness without having that long reverberated tail. The lack of low end is not a problem, by far most often i have deep, deep cuts in the low end in the kick channel. Of course, it can be too short or there is no meat on the bones, so to speak but tighter kicks are better if there is decent PA. In very small stages, where kicks are not miced.. i would go with the biggest one you got.
@@squidcaps4308makes sense to me. That seems to line up with Joel’s analysis that the wood type is not affecting the sound that much in the studio due to all the coloration from the mics and processing. I heard the notion, from the Bob Gatzen drum tuning videos, that quieter drums such as birch were more desirable in the studio but now I’m not so sure. It seems like heads and damping, then micing and processing have the largest effect. Extra low sub frequencies could always be added in with EQ or created with a pitch shifter if desired like AC/DC did with their snare drum.
Forget the size of a kick drum, I think we should be appreciating the size of your snare shelf instead lol. I have two snares I like to swap out with each other whenever I want some different tones, but the amount of snares you have is simply awesome man. I bet owning this many drum kits really helps dissolve any morsel of monotony or fatigue that might come from hearing the same tones all the time during practice sessions.
Can I have you email my wife with your perspective?? 🤣🤣 You're not far off with your reasoning.... I love drums, all kinds, and I find something special about even the most mundane of snare models (I have more than a couple of very inexpensive entry-level drums that I appreciate for certain applications). This makes it hard to thin the heard, which I need to do on occasion, because it just gets silly after awhile (see also my listings on Reverb). But yes, I was always the kid who found a use for all 64 Crayon colors, and not much has changed. Thanks so much for being here!!!
@@patdeniston3697 A dust collector? Oh, do tell!!! I've heard good things about those! 🙂 No joke, a couple of my favorite snare drums are the cheapest you can buy, but they have a certain charm that I find... well... charming. What is your dust collector??
I got to the end, great reportage! I had a 22”x20, being a 22” deep by 20” that I did this same thing with. When I made the drum, it was in the heyday of Orange County and the shotgun bass drum error, so I did my own Keller shell version. I thought it was cool, until I went into the studio with it and the engineer HATED IT. It hurt my little feelings pretty good, but we did find a way to make it work. Years later, I decided “what the heck”! I cut it down to a 13 5/8” because I’m punk rock like that. It is a fantastic studio drum now!
Great video! Been playing since 1970😮 and experienced some of the trends to deeper and then shallower drums. With the deep kicks it seems to me that the pedals simply cannot move enough air to take any advantage of extra depth. (Toms are something of a different story) Both depths of your kick sounded good to me, but the 14" sounded better to me recorded. I've owned 20", 22" and 24" and played 16 and 18" kicks. But acoustically, my Pearl 18 X 20 (without a hole in the front head for a mike) is the most massive sounding kick I've ever heard. Did you notice a lot of difference acoustically between the two depths?
Hi, Joel. I grew up in the era of 14" deep bass drums, and when the 16s and 18s started showing up I thought of it as more a marketing gimmick than a musical advancement. Now that I've watched this video, I realize that it's only 80% a marketing gimmick and 20% a sound enhancer that some drummers may like under some circumstances. If they can fit that oversized bass drum in their car, that is.
It's funny that when the 16 and 18 deep kicks became popular, the shallower rack toms also became more popular. I like it in the reverse myself, but it's difficult to find unless you go custom.
@@totigerus 16" bass drums became popular when power toms became popular. Drum companies added 2" to toms and bass drums (3" to toms if you're Tama). 18" bass drums became popular when DW introduced the FAST tom sizes, which are 1" shorter than power toms (9"x12", etc.). In between those two events, some time in the 80s, Yamaha got the idea to cut floor toms (which traditionally are square-sized) down by 2" and suspend them like rack toms, and DW did the same early on. DW's massive popularity in the early 90s caused everyone to follow suit, until proper floor toms came back into vogue in the early 2000s or so.
For recording i (and i say i as my perspective) like the 16x22 bass drum. like you i been haved a lot of bass drums, rigth now i have a 24x18 Dw Maple Performance and prefer my 22x16 Premier Artist Series
In my experience no. Deeper bass drums produce a flabbier, less punchy tone, are harder to play and don't record as well. Edit: experience confirmed. I have an 18"X22" DW Performance I'm going to cut down to 14" as soon as I find someone to do it in my area. Got to the end!
Keep these full-length videos coming! Great stuff. I might be in the minority, but I much prefer the sustain/boom of the 18". I like the 14 punch as well, but give me that attack and resonance of the 18" all day.
The deeper one is for me! Nothing bad about the 14” though. Personal preference. I just felt the bigger guy was just deeper sounding and still retained the punch.
Hey Joel…I got to the end! Really cool experiment and very well done!🤘🏼 I’ve been looking at a shallower bass drum for a while after playing an A&F and was floored at how it felt and sounded. Thanks! Looking forward to watching more of your stuff!
Got to the end, Joel. Great video! I appreciate hearing your experiences and opinions. I totally agree with you. Although I was a stubborn deep kick enthusiast for way too long. I wanted to make them work so bad, but finally accepted the fact that I was working too hard at muffling and tuning in the studio with the 18” and even 20” deep kicks 😵💫. Shorter bass drums for studio, easy choice!
Thanks for posting. I’ve been playing over 50 years and 14” depth just works for me. I had a 16x20 Gretsch USA Custom that was very good(tight and low), but the 14x20 just felt and sounded right to me. I have bass drums ranging from 20-26 and they are all 14” depth. Some companies like Tama and DW continue to market deeper bass drums
Thanks for your efforts on this topic! Absolutely the 14 inch to my ears is lovely. I always liked the look of the longer more power kick but I truly am a fan of the 14 inch classic now. made it to the end and will subscribe. Great feel on the groove. “I keep forgetting…”🎶
Made it to the end. Makes me grateful that I never went for that trend that started about 15 years ago where the younger guys were going for ridiculously lengthy (20" or more) kick depths.
I fear I would have gone for that trend were I not so old (even at the time). I was already experiencing the phenomenon that I duicussed here at that point, so I wasn't interested.
Yes, I got to the end of the video. Thanks for the audio demonstration. For some time now I've been missing my old Ludwig set with the 14' bass drums. I have a Pearl midrange set with a 16" deep bass drum, and my favorite drum set is a Tama Starclassic Maple 7 piece, but it has an 22" x 18" bass drum. I'm 69 and retired two years ago from my software engineering job and so last year I got back into drumming after not playing them for 16 years, and I couldn't believe how much heavier the drums had become in that time period. 🙂 So on the one hand I prefer shallower drums for the weight and the less space that they take up in my vehicle (both sets have regular size toms; I sold my Tama Rockstar kit with the power toms when I put together the Pearl kit, which came before the Starclassics). Last month I had the opportunity to do a professional recording session with my Tama Starclassic set, and the drums sounded amazing! But I also noticed that the bass drum sounded really low, and you probably felt it more than hearing it. So, if I ever get another new drum set (much to the disapproval of my wife), it will be one with a 16" deep bass drum or 14" if available.
I was in a band from the age of 16 until about 23 or so. I have a kit with 2 bass drums that are each (if I remember correctly) 20x16... I hated trying to get them to both sound identical, so I combined them in to one long bass drum. I am 40 years old now, I still have that kit in a basement at my buddy's house and the bass drums are still together. Its a BEAST and has a VERY low punch. When my band used to do shows, I had gotten remarks often from front of house engineers about how good the bass drum sounded when mic'd up. It's been well over 10 years since I've seen my drum kit... I need to get back to it.
Was interesting to hear how the fundamental pitch went up after the drum was cut down to 14". Was pretty stark in the A/B demonstration. Now I REALLY want to lay my mitts on a 14 inch deep kick. Thank you for the vid! Was very informative!
I played a 22x18 from 1996 to 2018. Super boomy. Then my taste changed and I suddenly fell in love with the punch of a 22x14. It’s definitely now the best size for me. Really great video! 👏
I accidentally got my first 14” deep kick a while back. I acquired a vintage Ludwig 5 piece. 22x14-12-13-16. My first kit was a granitone interior 80’s rocker with power Tom sizes. Once I got the bug to buy my first kit again, I found a white one with the shallow bass drum. It will knock the breath out of you with attack
Based on your excellent efforts and results, I suspect that a 16" depth might offer an optimal "compromise" between bass sound, sustain and response. I played the 20" x 14" bass throughout the sixties before microphones became popular and always felt the bass was too weak. I would loosen the lugs as much as possible, trying to achieve a chest-thumping sound and feel. Larger depth definitely creates power, although at the expense of resonance and response. Anyways, great experimentation. Thanks very much!
Well... I didn't do a threeway comparison (might have been possible, but not without a few extra holes in the shell, methinks). But yes, 16" might just be the compromise between the two!
Awesome job making this video! I’m convinced after A/B 14” is superior. Rick beato also did a similar test with same results! I wish I liked the appearance more if shallower depths. Deeper looks better but from a sound perspective it’s undeniable. Thanks!
That is incredible!! Absolutely love the tone of the 18, but like you say the punch of the 14 is sooo good, a way tighter sound. I’m still yet to purchase a legit drumset, and this is good to know. Thank you Joel!
I got to the end. I have a maple Ludwig classic that I originally bought with an 18" deep bass drum that I had cut down to 14" deep. Part of the reason I did that is I came to the realization after purchasing the set that there's a reason why every drummer I see perform in LA has a 14" deep bass drum. I'm glad I did it. The kit really has a good solid punchy sound because of it. I also record it without the front head on to get a more solid punchy sound as well. Thanks for the comparison vid. Well done.
I got to the end and I found your video very interesting. I have three basedrums: 22/20, 22/16 and 24/14. The 22/16 and 24/14 are way punchier than the 22/20. I have thought about having it cut down and now I know it’s the right thing to do. It’s going to be 22/14. Thanks 👍😊
This was yet another great and necessary addition to the collective knowledge of the drum world - thanks for the video. On a side note, Yamaha actually offers a travel version of their Stage Custom (the "hip" version) which is shortened to 10 or 12", but still maintains the normal diameter, and apart from being a stage custom, it's been greatly received. Also: I got to the end
I did the exact Same thing with the 24” version of this drum. Such a huge difference. So much so, I’m going to do it to my Gretsch Brooklyn 24x18 next. Great video!
The biggest, deep end and punchy bass drum I have ever heard live was an 18 x 14. It looked like a floor tom. Talking to the drummer he got tired of lugging his set that filled up his truck so he was doing a jazz gig in the city decided to quickly toss in the jazz kit that could be loaded in and out in 2 or 3 trips. Left it in for the next few gigs and found that after some simple adjustments, it got a load of positive feedback. It had that punch in the chest mixed with the attack which made it not get lost in the bass or mids of the music. It was naturally EQ’d to sit in its own little space above the muddy lows and already crowded mids. The band played between the NY, Philly and Atlantic City area and had to be able to play rock, jazz, bossanova or whatever the venue was looking for. That kit was a chameleon. It just worked so well in every situation. And he was no longer the first to get in and setup and last to leave. I’d just purchased my 24 x 18 DW Classic. My next trial was to test a 20 x 16. True enough, it sounds more powerful and fat simply because it can actually be heard within the music. In theory and sound, the 24 yes is lower than the 20. But what good is it its lost. Sold the cannon and enjoy hearing my low end little drum.
Hey Joel, I love your channel and this post on bass drum depth. I’m hella old and began my symphony percussion lessons in 1960. Drums were taught as an acoustic listening experience such as bass drums are relatively slow and played anticipating the beat regarding projection, i.e., play a quarter note on snare and bass in exact unison and the bass drum is felt slightly behind tempo out in the audience. In 1965, I used that concept playing a Ludwig 22x14 bass drum a bit anticipated and improved by removing the resonant head. In 1978, I wanted more authority for the bass drum and started using a Gretsch 24x14 bass drum with resonant head in place. At the time pedal beaters were not hitting the head at 90 degrees until the ASBA Caroline pedal came out so I bought one, changed the felt beater to wood, and added a Danmar plastic dot. I had to alter my foot technique just to play the damn thing and when played by itself sounded terrible. However, playing it with a live band was arguably the best sounding bass drum ever heard in the Bay Area at the time. You could say I was anticipating the future like my bass drum notes, so in 1995 started using a DW 22x18 bass drum. The time it took for air to travel that extra four inches caused the drum to respond very slowly and there wasn’t much I could do about it. It sounded great (sonic) but my old school playability of the drum (music) was compromised. Not sure how or if my story plays out in this century of digital studio software. Meanwhile, I’m studying jazz using a Gretsch USA Custom 18x14 bass drum. Anyway, thanks for reading drummin' bros!
I made it to the end Joel! I worked for a top drum maker/ tech/ repairman for a couple years, and he sold me on the 14"depth, especially the crazy big sound of a 20x14. But, it was nice to hear the difference in your video for reality. The only weird one I have is a 20x18 Sonor Prolite. It doesn't have the same command like you said, but it has kind of a cool buah sound with pillows inside and a sheep looking felt beater for a quiet sound. Myore stylistic that actual good sound. I played a monster 1990 Yamaha Rock Tour Custom for almost 30 years with square sizes and (2) 24x18's ... wouldn't go back.
I got to the end! I also love the 14 inch depth for the bass drum. I primarily play metal, and my favorite kit to use in that setting has a pair of 24x14 kicks, and it CRUSHES. I also occasionally use my 28x14 for rock and metal, and it also does extremely well! Something about that depth is just... (chef's kiss)
Thanks for the comparison in kick depths, very cool! I guess I am somewhere in between with my 2 Ludwig 16"x24" Power Kicks. And yes, I'll enjoy my extra set of spurs, too!
Wow! Great job with this! As drummers, we're constantly tweaking, tuning, & chasing the dragon. The more I learn this all has to do with moving air. We kinda just think hit skin, boom sound. Without thinking of the air moving in the shell as we play.
I always used 22" x 16" kicks then 22" x 18" kicks. K changed to a 20" x 14" kick when storage space became an issue and it was by far and away the best kick I've ever heard. I currently only use a mid range Natal kit, but that bass drum is a keeper
This is a well done A/B comparison. Nice back & forth segment. Gadd likes 14” deep because he hears the return faster. No one stays on beat better than he, so I can believe he can sense or detect the response.
My mind was changed when the old modern drummer podcast with Mike and Mike addressed this. Now I find it hard to find new kits I want because of the marketing gimmick to sell more expensive finishes.
Very nice video!! I'm glad I bought my drum set with 22 "x16" instead of x18" bass drums a year ago. Your video confirms my suspicion from back then that this will suit my taste. However, I have to confess that I cut out the resonance heads to approx. 21". But in my opinion it's perfect for old school death metal.
This was a very interesting experiment, well executed and a very accurate comparison exercise. I personally found this very useful and what its telling me is that pretty much regardless of size, if it sounds right ( to you ) then it is right. I knew there was a very good reason why I mostly prefer smaller bass drums.
Great video and comparison! And yes, I got to the end👍🏻 I also prefer a 14” deep bass drum. In fact, I prefer standard depth toms too. I was surprised when I discovered this in the mid 1990s when I purchased my early 1970s Rogers kit in standard sizes (with a 24x14 bass drum) and realized how much I preferred the sound to my mid 1980s Yamaha Recording Custom drums in power sizes.
I made it to the end! I liked the 14 inch because there’s less of that high-end ring in the drum. The bigger drum does have a more complex sound, I think. But as far as power, the smalker drum totally kicks butt!
Funny . . . I've played all and now I am glad my 22" is 18 deep . . . low end depth is much more pronounced. I also have a 20" which is 16" deep and while it has more attack and punch, the 22 with 18 makes the room move. . . I am playing Yamaha PHX kit.
I made it to the end Joel! I appreciate is of your videos. There’s a huge difference with a 14” bass drum. I had no idea? I like how Stanton Moore is using both and has a 24”x14” bass drum kind of off to the side.
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I had it in my head that I never wanted a 14" kick. Until I got one. And there's nothing like a 24"x14" Huge, punchy and quick without being as unwieldy as a 26". 26" feels like you're playing a 1980's waterbed mattress. And the key to the larger sizes coming alive is tightening your reso more than you would think and suddenly the walls start to shake.
My absolute favorite bass drum is my Ludwig (heavy 6-ply late 70s shell) 24x14. I can make that drum as defined and articulate or open/boomy, off-the-chain as I want with tuning, muffling and miking/processing. It's my desert island kick. I also love my 26" as well (1969, 3-ply Ludwig, natural interior -- converted marching bass drum), and yes, you gotta tune those heads up on drums with that much real estate, but the 'boom' is tremendous!!
Can not agree more. I’ve a Lignum birch stave kit with a 24”x14” bassdrum and a 20”x14” bassdrum/floortom … the 24” is the best bassdrum I EVER heard !
So true! My 40-year-old Slingerland kit has two 24x14" bass drums. When I first set it up in my high school band room, the other drummer said, "Wow, these sound like thunder!" They still do, and I've never felt the need to buy another kit. 😄
I’ve wanted a 24x14 forever! It’s gonna happen sometime!
@@drumdotpizza I had a kit with two of those 24x14". Thermogloss natural maple. They sounded great with just about any drumhead.
Wow this was a real eye opener for me! What strikes me the most is the way the 14" kick drum feels a lot tighter and more controlled...the 18" feels almost flabby in comparison. I believe the 18" has extra sustain, but its the sort of sustain I always try to get rid of in my mixes anyway! It just muddies everything. Appreciate this!
please red my comment. cheers
Im not a drummer but as an engineer I track a lot of drums. To this date some of the most powerful drums I’ve ever recorded was a DW Frequent Flier kit my buddy had. I wanna say it’s a 20 x 12 kick, 5 x 14 snare and 12 and 14 inch Tom’s. Skin heads with a monster of a player and these little drums sounded absolutely GIGANTIC. To this day I don’t see a need for bigger drums in the studio unless a band specifically wants them, I still think about that kit often. Man I gotta get that guy back in the studio.
Big difference in the studio than on stage. Big drums can be too much for small rooms and mics
Not surprising that smaller drums can be recorded in a way that makes them seem more powerful in the mix. Mic'd and mixed sounds are all relative in ways that the engineer decides. Session great Gary Novak said that he would sometimes use a smaller stick in his left hand (for the backbeat) because the smaller stick made the snare drum sound relatively large on tape. And Todd Sucherman has talked about adjusting the amount of power he uses to hit the drums in the studio because it changes the sound.
Give him a call. You will be glad you did. haha
Iv got the flyer kit and I sold my higher end dw to keep it. Best kit iv had and the bass drum is so punchy for the size. Also yes it's a 20x12 12x8 14x11
@@kellyb0279Hello,please tell me what drumheads do you use on frequent flyer kit?Thank's in advance
I like the 14. To my ear the 18 sounded deeper but the sound was less "cohesive" than the 14. I ran each section through RTA software with averaging to compare. It appears the 18 has a prominent peak at 43Hz that's 4dB higher than the 14 but from there the output drops like a rock. They both have the same output at 30Hz but at 20Hz, the 14 has 8dB more output but I don't think I heard that through the headphones. Overall the 14 has a smoother response.
I was about to do the same .. hahaha you just saved me an hour at least...
If you're performing, sometimes that low end is exactly what you want, even if you can't hear it. You can feel it in your body, and man... talk about visceral.
Made it to the end! And I recently had Zoog trim down my 20x22 to a 14x22 and the difference was night and day. It's easier to tune, The rebound and feel is much more tighter, the thump is more defined and I also gained 6 inches of room back. So it's a win all around. 14 is where it's at.
Long live Jon Zoog!!! So cool to hear about that, thanks for sharing. And yes, the added room in your vehicle is a bonus!! 😁
Jon Zoog is great guy and done quite a bit of work for me
Excellent video Bro!!! I am a Drummer, Drum- Tech and sound engineer born in the 60's and my favorite and reference kick sound has been Steward Copeland's "walking on the moon" (14x22 Tama Imperialstar). As we moved into the 90's and 2000's I really started missing that sound till I restored a 70's Imperialstar with a 14x22. Then I got a hold of a 92 Tama Prototype kit with prototype Starclassic Maple shells and that kit came with a 18x22, 18x20 and a 14x20! Yes, that was the game changer right there. Hearing those exact bass drums (same shells, same construction) with 4" difference was the best comparrison (as you just showed) and I been searching for 14" deep kicks since as well as cutting down 18" deep kicks to 14", 13" and even 12"!!! Cause it is not only the sound that gets more authority and punch, I find the feel and response of the bass drum so much nicer to play. And as a sound guy I can guarantee you that the shallower kick drums produce that "chest thumping bass" easier than these booming cannons. If you get the opportinity I can highly recommend 13" and 12" deep, especially for 20" or 18" kicks. Again, great video and keep it up👍🏻👍🏻
Wow, I never thought about it until now but "Walking on The Moon'' perfect example of what a 14x22 sounds like! You can feel how shallow that kick is, it's so immediate.
I've been using an 18x16 in kick drum in studio and rock setting for the last 8 years. people always laugh at my little drum set until I mic the thing up and the kick is like a howitzer. I played a 24x16 inch kick for years before making the switch to the small kit and never looked back. I've used the same kit on three different records and 100's of live shows. One of the advantages of small kicks in the fact that it cuts a bit of the bass out and gets it out of the way of the actual bass player in a mix which is what your engineer would typically do anyway so I count that as a plus as well.
Great Video! I'm in the market for a new kit so I may just get my next kick with a 20x14.
24x18 is the best
I still have a Ray Ayotte kit. He was still using Gibraltar hardware for the bass drum spur mounts and floor tom leg mounts. Phenomenal sounding kit. Also 18x22 kick
I gotta say, the difference is much more drastic than I expected. Wow. I too have moved away from 18" kicks to 16" and 14" kicks over the past few years, primarily because the feel better under foot to me, but I didn't realize how much the depth affected the sound! Awesome video, man, thanks for that.
As I understand it (and could be wrong), the 14" depth for bass drums was selected because it would fit through the doors of closets (40s, 50s 60s) homes for storage. The drum industry is driven a bit like the fashion industry where it periodically pushes a new trend to make their older designs appear outdated and drive new purchases (the old saying no change, no gain). Anyway thanks for this is a great comparison.
I had no idea. Interesting!!! Thank you for sharing.
I've been playing for 35 years and played all different size bass drum till I bought a set of ddrums with a 22x20 deep and it's an absolute monster of a bass drum and everyone who I play with can't believe how good my bass drum sounds along with the rest of the drums.
You're speaking my language, man! I've been preaching this for years, especially when metal drummers ask me to build 22" kicks that are 20" deep and mount triggers, because I could instead just make them a 24" kick that's 10" deep, and they won't need triggers, because the drum will already sound like they want it to! Anyway, great video, man!
I love the approach that you take when testing. I have been playing for 58 years, and have played several brands of drum sets and sizes of kicks. I always came back to 14" depth bass drums. The last kit that I bought, after being allowed to A-B test several sets, has a 20" kick. As purchased, the kick was a 16" depth and is my favorite bass that I ever owned. It's punchy and authoritative, and super easy to mic up, and works with big band music as well as trio/quartet stuff unmiked. For years I've wanted to have it cut down to 14" depth, but at this stage the cost is not worth the return. I totally love and appreciate what you do and how you do it! Keep it coming! Thank you.
Thank you for the kind words! Yes, 20" drums are quite versatile... head selection and tuning can make them surprisingly 'BIG' sounding! Much easier to carry around too!!
Thank you so much for being here and sharing!!
Wow 58 years! Respect !! i just past 40 years
Thanks for doing this as it represents a lot of effort and does show the differences well.
The surprise is how the bigger one makes the snare sound boxy. I was already a fan of 14" kick depth, in fact I use a 26, but I never expected the snare to sound so different.
Super cool. This validates the same felling I had. I recently sold all my 90s 18” deep kits and bought 14”x20” and 14”x 22” kits. I also noticed the drums are more responsive and feel better to play. Thanks for the awesome video!
I've played 14", 16" and 18" deep bass drums, and I really love my 14" deep bass drum the most. Having said that... my 22x18"bass drum also sounds and feels amazing. I'm afraid to cut it down!
The old catalog pages and ads took me BACK! Great video man.
Don't cut down anything you already love... if it ain't broke don't fix it! 😀
Btw, the snare also changed in pitch , so it must be some sort of metapsychic influence from shorter bass drum shell :)
Awesome video. What a great comparison. Thank you for your sacrifice.
Made it to the end.. I can't believe the results. What I get out of this experiment is that tonal wise the diameter changes that the most.. the depth changes the length of the note or sustain. The 18" depth has a clear sustain of the note and hangs around a bit longer while the 14" note hits and is gone much faster resulting in a much harder thump if you will.. interesting stuff. I think my 22"x16" is the perfect blend of these 2 aspects of a kick drum sound to my ears. Thanks for the effort sir.
Now I wish he had done 18", 16", and 14". 16" is likely to be a good blend of the best qualities of the 14" and the 18".
@@Stoovey24 totally agree
I have to say you are absolutely right. For years I played a Yamaha 20 x 18 kick I recently switched to a pearl masters 20 x 14 and I could not believe the difference in the sound and also the feel of the bass drum while playing the drums, the 14 is definitely a rounder maybe puncher, but also to my ear is full of sound and kickand the playability of it is just so much better. I absolutely love the 20 x 14.
Joel, this is a great demonstration!!! You really can hear a difference, even on headphones. I wonder what a 4"x14" kick would sound like - Have you done anything with the 4" part of the drum that was cut off? Might be another interesting experiment. I have a 1977 Slingerland 14x24 kick which sounds great!!! I love these videos and appreciate you taking the time to create them!!!
I have the cutoff section still. Not sure what to do with it, but I rarely toss things out (just ask my wife! ;)
thanks for chiming in!
@@drumdotpizza Drummer's wives are special!!! 😎🎶
I hope you do an episode like this on the depth of toms. Not just how the depth of say, a 14" diameter tom would sound if it were 10" deep vs 12" deep, but also why we accept a different depth to diameter ratio for rack toms vs floor toms. I'd think to match a 14" x 10", your 16" floor tom would be 16" x 11.5".
You're speaking to a kindred spirit! I have long wondered about the role consistent ratio plays in tom sizes. Floor toms were always (traditionally) so much deeper with respect to rack toms, and I personally struggle more with getting great tones from a 16x16 floor tom than I do any traditional depth rack tom.
The 10/12/14 toms that came with the kick I used in this video are going to be the subject of an upcoming video. I have had Zoog cut them down to shallow depths (with similar ratios). I can't do a before/after, since I have already cut the shells down, but I'm wanting to see how shallow toms behave, overall... just generally put them through multiple tunings and muffling to see what they're like. I probably should have done a before/after, but too late now. Would have been a terribly long video if I had anyway, as I plan to do a lot with them as is. Hopefully that will be useful and interesting to folks.
@@drumdotpizza I look forward to watching that episode.
I have a few “short stack” toms and I’ve found that they’re more punchy and seem to sustain a little longer. They also seem to have a quicker response, as well as a fuller sound at lower volumes compared to traditional depths. Great video! Cheers!
Lol, DIGITAL DRUMS , THATS THE ONLY WAY !
Nice overview and comparison. I’ve been playing the drums for 50+ years. I’m not great but just enjoy playing. I’ve owned lots of kits over the years, pretty much all Ludwig or Pearl. I am also a former recording engineer and Studio owner from 1972 until I got out of the business in 1989. I recently decided I wanted to get back into it for my own enjoyment so I built a small music project Studio in our music room in our home. I hadn’t own a drum kit for about 12 years. When I began researching what I wanted to start playing again I was immediately attracted to the Gretsch Catalina Club kits for their warm classic sounding Mahogany Shells and the 14” depth bass drum option. Now having played this kit for about 2 years I have to admit it is such a pleasure. With my previous kits with depth of 16", 18", or even 20", I’ve been moving a lot of air - now I know needlessly. I learned that for a punchy, kick sound, that requires much less effort the 14" x 20" is PERFECT. Lesson learned after all of these years.
Great A/B test! Also worthy to note the deeper kick drum picks up a lot more of the low-tuned snare drum. I’ve noticed this live with my mic’ed 22x18. Sometimes resonates with the bass guitar to the point of LF feedback. Another benefit - the shallower kick drum makes the whole kit sound tighter.
This was an excellent demonstration and the amount of work involved is amazing. Regardless of which side of the coin anyone chooses, you have knocked this out of the park. Thank you!
Love your content Joel and this is no exception (I made it to the end!) Thanks for taking the time to remove all of the 'yeah, but...' variables that would have detracted from the results - I'm sure we all realise just how time consuming this would actually have been to achieve. I also want you to know that I enjoy your videos so much over here in the UK, that when you release a new one, I purposefully wait until I have a cup of tea and some clear space before I start, so I can get the most out of it (a position previously exclusively held by the Drum Centre of Portsmouth in my house!) As for the drum size debate, I totally agree with your findings. I'm 53 and have had pretty much every make of kit in every size from 18" - 24" BD over the years. The size I keep returning to is 20x14 due to it's portability and tuning range. Playing off the head of an undampened Evans EQ3 front and back combo tuned to a medium tension gives massive results. Drop the tension and add some dampening results in a killer thud. I'll leave it there as I'm going on a bit. Keep up the great work and I look forward to the next high quality episode when you can.
I didn't notice a frequency shift. I noticed a longer note with the deeper drum. That longer note may give a perceived boost in the low end.
I find the note the longer drum produces is more low mid than the impact of true low thump of the shorter drum. It's more a visceral 'feel' rather than anything audible for me. I feel the shorter drum. I hear the deeper drum.
@@drumdotpizza my 22x18 drums have this thick deep punch in the gut thump. My issue is I want a click with all the rumble. I want that attack that I haven't achieved with my 22x14 bass drums. I haven't yet tried a hardwood beater and maybe a thin metal head protector. I love the deep thud, but want the tight top end that cuts through the mix. I know folks are mixing in a triggered bass drum to get the click. I don't have triggers. I am so sick of gear and the need for more. I have so much damn gear, I better be able to figure out how to stick with and get the work done.
@@thomastucker5686 FWIW you should try two mics (if you don't already), one inside to get the click you describe and one outside, in front of the head (not the hole) to get the LF 'umph.' I CAN make a single mic work, but whether recording or playing live I use two mics, so I can dial in as much of each character I want to create the perfect blend.
@@drumdotpizza thank you for the advice. I am running out of inputs and mic stands and cables. I have 12 dedicated drum channels, 4 aux channels left. All drum channels are active. I can do what you suggested eventually. I want a ride cymbal mic, it doesn't come out in the mix, hi hat mic, can't hear that either and now a second kick mic. I have top/bottom snare mics. I would have bottom rack and floor tom mics, but I don't have 24 channels available. I have to prove myself with the gear I own, then improve it over time, or continue with what I have. I have much to learn about recording drums and making it sound huge. Same with all instruments really. Vocals, oh boy.
I really loved this experiment, it's amazing the difference between each other. Pure drumming gold, well done Joel!!
Though I’m in agreement with the points made, I will say that if you use one of those old fashioned fluffy BD beaters on say a 16” deep/18” diameter (head size) it produces a rich, quiet full sound. Admittedly it’s not at all punchy but for certain types of music, probably not pop or rock, it fills the room with a mellow long note that emphasizes the soft low frequencies.
Hi Joel,
I’m 70 and new to drums. I made it to the end and like others really appreciate the content and truth that shines in your story line. You have been as objective as I think one can be. The comparison showed, to me, the “boom” is more and sounds richer in the 18” but shows also the punch that jumps in the 14”. I think both have a place and depends on the music and how you want the drum part to fit in with the complete orchestration of all instruments being utilized. Thanks for the content. As always it is enlightening.
I'm 74 and I've been playing since 1965 and still learning. I started in rock with a garage band and moved over to soft jazz.
If you think this is a lot of info, wait until you check out the effect of drum shells - different wood, different thickness, different amount of plies, different covers (wrap, lacquor, etc.) and shell bearing edges (33 degrees vs 45 degrees).
Then there are the snare drums with the same content as above PLUS the difference in types of metal, snare wires, snare throw-offs and dimensions.
When you think you start to feel confident, you discover the difference in heads'thicknesses, layers, plies and applications.
Then the millions of kinds of sticks.
Don't forget the brushes!
If you play in different venues, you will discover what happens when you play on or off stage, in rooms with carpet and curtains or in halls with no acoustics at all.
If you play jazz or rock with acoustic or amplified instruments at different volumes, everything changes.
Has your brain exploded yet? Don't panic. It's a wonderful trip that makes amusement parks seem dull.
Welcome to the strange world of drummers. We are all fun and crazy. Just recognize that we are all different and there is no single correct answer to anything. Just find out what fits you and scratches your itch.
This was fun. Thank you. I think I get how the 14" might sit prettier in a mix, but really dig the tone from the 18" drum. There are some overtones in the decay that really make my ears happy.
All in the ears of the beholder! I just wanted people to know the difference rather than be guessing. Nothing empirical, of course, but wanted something somewhat scientific to (hopefully) confirm what I have noticed over the last couple of decades.
Thanks for being here!!
To me the sound died inside the 18 inch deep drum. It had this anaemic splat sound.... at 14 inches it gave off a nice punchy knock.
IMO 14 is where it's at. If you want more resonance and overtones go up in diameter.
Fantastic job on this! I really appreciate your attention to detail and accounting for all of the potential variables. Would love to have heard the kick with individual hits in addition to the context of the grooves but still, this was great. Cheers! -Ben
I've had several 22x18 bass drums and never really loved them. I tried a 26x14 and fell in love. I've since tried to get shallow depth bass drums. I think it has something to do with the shallower depth having less air to move to activate the resonant head. Enjoyed the video, thanks!
Yep, I think having the relatively loose resident head closer to the batter head is the key!
Great experiment! I personally play with both an 18x22 in 1 band and 14x24 in another and I like both for their unique qualities. With your experiment of using the same drum at different sizes, I actually preferred the 14 x 22. Good stuff!
As someone who grew up in the 80’s and 90’s playing rock and metal, I had all the big deep drums. I am now on the 14” kick depth bandwagon. Currently using a 26x14, so much better (and easier to haul and place) than the 26x16 and 26x18 I had before. Sounds better too! I will admit for smaller 20/22” kicks, I do like the look of deeper shells though.
The 14" sounds way more focused, that's really fascinating man. Good stuff, appreciate all your work here. :)
The timing of this video release could not have been better. I was just thinking about this yesterday. Great video as always!!
Ahahaha :D nice see the same synchronicity! I was talking about this phenomena with an audio engineer yesterday.
I'm so glad!! Thanks for sharing.
Great testing! Younger me really liked the boomy sustain from the longer kicks. Today the shorter is so much more impactful: thunderous and gets out of the way. Perfect
With my eyes closed or open, full length has more sustain and sounds like it's tuned to E whereas the shortened mod sounds like a G. The shortened drum might have a cleaner more focused "note" to it. REALLY INTERESTING VIDEO.
Started out with a 22” x 14” bass drum. Upgraded to 24” x 16” double bass drums. They were still NEVER loud ‘bassy’ enough, and never had the old-school thumpy sound I craved. *So 26” inch it is!*
I’m a street drummer and I got to keep it quiet but punch so I got 22inch from the tip and cut it down to 10. I put deep vintage in the batter and Remo power stroke on the reso. Everyone loves it including the unamped musos. I think the deep and wide bass drums are for heavy rock concert stuff and that’s about it. And yes always go all the way to the end of your vids. You keep it interesting.
The 18” depth lowered the sub frequencies by a whole step. Not sure if it’s worth it though since I usually prefer the playability and the portability of the 14” depth. Maybe 16” depth is the way to go!
They can also be a pain for us sound engineers, deeper kicks can easily muddy up the whole bottom end. Tighter sound is easier to control, there is less ringing and we can use more compression to dig out the snappiness without having that long reverberated tail. The lack of low end is not a problem, by far most often i have deep, deep cuts in the low end in the kick channel. Of course, it can be too short or there is no meat on the bones, so to speak but tighter kicks are better if there is decent PA. In very small stages, where kicks are not miced.. i would go with the biggest one you got.
@@squidcaps4308makes sense to me. That seems to line up with Joel’s analysis that the wood type is not affecting the sound that much in the studio due to all the coloration from the mics and processing. I heard the notion, from the Bob Gatzen drum tuning videos, that quieter drums such as birch were more desirable in the studio but now I’m not so sure. It seems like heads and damping, then micing and processing have the largest effect. Extra low sub frequencies could always be added in with EQ or created with a pitch shifter if desired like AC/DC did with their snare drum.
The way you recorded it at the end is how all comparison videos should be done. Great point on depths.
Thank you!! So glad you're here. 👍
I have a 24x14 and a 22x12, and I love them. I've had a 24x20 and found it harder to play and travel with. Love the comparison.
Excellent video brother. I've been pretty convinced to downsize my bass drums and this is all the reaffirmation I need. Awesome!
Forget the size of a kick drum, I think we should be appreciating the size of your snare shelf instead lol. I have two snares I like to swap out with each other whenever I want some different tones, but the amount of snares you have is simply awesome man. I bet owning this many drum kits really helps dissolve any morsel of monotony or fatigue that might come from hearing the same tones all the time during practice sessions.
Can I have you email my wife with your perspective?? 🤣🤣
You're not far off with your reasoning.... I love drums, all kinds, and I find something special about even the most mundane of snare models (I have more than a couple of very inexpensive entry-level drums that I appreciate for certain applications). This makes it hard to thin the heard, which I need to do on occasion, because it just gets silly after awhile (see also my listings on Reverb). But yes, I was always the kid who found a use for all 64 Crayon colors, and not much has changed.
Thanks so much for being here!!!
I have 2 snares, a supraphonic and a dust collector
@@patdeniston3697 A dust collector? Oh, do tell!!! I've heard good things about those! 🙂 No joke, a couple of my favorite snare drums are the cheapest you can buy, but they have a certain charm that I find... well... charming. What is your dust collector??
I got to the end, great reportage! I had a 22”x20, being a 22” deep by 20” that I did this same thing with.
When I made the drum, it was in the heyday of Orange County and the shotgun bass drum error, so I did my own Keller shell version. I thought it was cool, until I went into the studio with it and the engineer HATED IT. It hurt my little feelings pretty good, but we did find a way to make it work.
Years later, I decided “what the heck”! I cut it down to a 13 5/8” because I’m punk rock like that. It is a fantastic studio drum now!
Great video! Been playing since 1970😮 and experienced some of the trends to deeper and then shallower drums. With the deep kicks it seems to me that the pedals simply cannot move enough air to take any advantage of extra depth. (Toms are something of a different story) Both depths of your kick sounded good to me, but the 14" sounded better to me recorded. I've owned 20", 22" and 24" and played 16 and 18" kicks. But acoustically, my Pearl 18 X 20 (without a hole in the front head for a mike) is the most massive sounding kick I've ever heard. Did you notice a lot of difference acoustically between the two depths?
Hi, Joel. I grew up in the era of 14" deep bass drums, and when the 16s and 18s started showing up I thought of it as more a marketing gimmick than a musical advancement. Now that I've watched this video, I realize that it's only 80% a marketing gimmick and 20% a sound enhancer that some drummers may like under some circumstances. If they can fit that oversized bass drum in their car, that is.
It's funny that when the 16 and 18 deep kicks became popular, the shallower rack toms also became more popular. I like it in the reverse myself, but it's difficult to find unless you go custom.
@@totigerus 16" bass drums became popular when power toms became popular. Drum companies added 2" to toms and bass drums (3" to toms if you're Tama). 18" bass drums became popular when DW introduced the FAST tom sizes, which are 1" shorter than power toms (9"x12", etc.). In between those two events, some time in the 80s, Yamaha got the idea to cut floor toms (which traditionally are square-sized) down by 2" and suspend them like rack toms, and DW did the same early on. DW's massive popularity in the early 90s caused everyone to follow suit, until proper floor toms came back into vogue in the early 2000s or so.
For recording i (and i say i as my perspective) like the 16x22 bass drum. like you i been haved a lot of bass drums, rigth now i have a 24x18 Dw Maple Performance and prefer my 22x16 Premier Artist Series
In my experience no. Deeper bass drums produce a flabbier, less punchy tone, are harder to play and don't record as well. Edit: experience confirmed. I have an 18"X22" DW Performance I'm going to cut down to 14" as soon as I find someone to do it in my area. Got to the end!
Hello Joel, made it through! Really enjoyed this video! Love the 14” depth bass drum. Not only do they sound great but they feel great too! Thanks!
Keep these full-length videos coming! Great stuff. I might be in the minority, but I much prefer the sustain/boom of the 18". I like the 14 punch as well, but give me that attack and resonance of the 18" all day.
Yep, confirmed for me - 18" for the win! It has more presence and depth (duh). More room turns out is more room (longer waves)... imagine that.
Good video! I made it to the end! I've only ever played 16-inch deep bass drums, but I'm really digging the 14!
The deeper one is for me! Nothing bad about the 14” though. Personal preference. I just felt the bigger guy was just deeper sounding and still retained the punch.
Getting results that we expect is not a wasted test. It is nice to hear the difference so clearly.
My favorite size bass drum is 22x20! My ddrum dominion kick is a damn cannon
The 14-inch has more punch and sounds tighter to me. I actually preferred the 14. Thanks man that was cool 👍🏻
Hey Joel…I got to the end! Really cool experiment and very well done!🤘🏼 I’ve been looking at a shallower bass drum for a while after playing an A&F and was floored at how it felt and sounded. Thanks! Looking forward to watching more of your stuff!
Thanks for the upload. This clarifies a lot for me too. And yes, I reached the end. Thank you again.
Got to the end, Joel. Great video!
I appreciate hearing your experiences and opinions. I totally agree with you. Although I was a stubborn deep kick enthusiast for way too long. I wanted to make them work so bad, but finally accepted the fact that I was working too hard at muffling and tuning in the studio with the 18” and even 20” deep kicks 😵💫. Shorter bass drums for studio, easy choice!
Thanks for posting. I’ve been playing over 50 years and 14” depth just works for me. I had a 16x20 Gretsch USA Custom that was very good(tight and low), but the 14x20 just felt and sounded right to me. I have bass drums ranging from 20-26 and they are all 14” depth.
Some companies like Tama and DW continue to market deeper bass drums
Great timing! Was discussing cutting my kick with my local drum repair guy
Thanks for your efforts on this topic! Absolutely the 14 inch to my ears is lovely. I always liked the look of the longer more power kick but I truly am a fan of the 14 inch classic now. made it to the end and will subscribe. Great feel on the groove. “I keep forgetting…”🎶
Made it to the end. Makes me grateful that I never went for that trend that started about 15 years ago where the younger guys were going for ridiculously lengthy (20" or more) kick depths.
I fear I would have gone for that trend were I not so old (even at the time). I was already experiencing the phenomenon that I duicussed here at that point, so I wasn't interested.
Yes, I got to the end of the video. Thanks for the audio demonstration. For some time now I've been missing my old Ludwig set with the 14' bass drums. I have a Pearl midrange set with a 16" deep bass drum, and my favorite drum set is a Tama Starclassic Maple 7 piece, but it has an 22" x 18" bass drum. I'm 69 and retired two years ago from my software engineering job and so last year I got back into drumming after not playing them for 16 years, and I couldn't believe how much heavier the drums had become in that time period. 🙂 So on the one hand I prefer shallower drums for the weight and the less space that they take up in my vehicle (both sets have regular size toms; I sold my Tama Rockstar kit with the power toms when I put together the Pearl kit, which came before the Starclassics).
Last month I had the opportunity to do a professional recording session with my Tama Starclassic set, and the drums sounded amazing! But I also noticed that the bass drum sounded really low, and you probably felt it more than hearing it.
So, if I ever get another new drum set (much to the disapproval of my wife), it will be one with a 16" deep bass drum or 14" if available.
I was in a band from the age of 16 until about 23 or so. I have a kit with 2 bass drums that are each (if I remember correctly) 20x16... I hated trying to get them to both sound identical, so I combined them in to one long bass drum. I am 40 years old now, I still have that kit in a basement at my buddy's house and the bass drums are still together. Its a BEAST and has a VERY low punch. When my band used to do shows, I had gotten remarks often from front of house engineers about how good the bass drum sounded when mic'd up. It's been well over 10 years since I've seen my drum kit... I need to get back to it.
Was interesting to hear how the fundamental pitch went up after the drum was cut down to 14". Was pretty stark in the A/B demonstration. Now I REALLY want to lay my mitts on a 14 inch deep kick. Thank you for the vid! Was very informative!
sounded like it went up by two semitones? I wish there had been a spectrogram in this video.
I played a 22x18 from 1996 to 2018. Super boomy. Then my taste changed and I suddenly fell in love with the punch of a 22x14.
It’s definitely now the best size for me.
Really great video! 👏
Excellent job, great sound. Cleared up a lot of confusion for me.
I'm so grateful that you are sharing your knowledge. It means a lot. Thank you!
I accidentally got my first 14” deep kick a while back. I acquired a vintage Ludwig 5 piece. 22x14-12-13-16. My first kit was a granitone interior 80’s rocker with power Tom sizes. Once I got the bug to buy my first kit again, I found a white one with the shallow bass drum. It will knock the breath out of you with attack
Based on your excellent efforts and results, I suspect that a 16" depth might offer an optimal "compromise" between bass sound, sustain and response. I played the 20" x 14" bass throughout the sixties before microphones became popular and always felt the bass was too weak. I would loosen the lugs as much as possible, trying to achieve a chest-thumping sound and feel. Larger depth definitely creates power, although at the expense of resonance and response. Anyways, great experimentation. Thanks very much!
Well... I didn't do a threeway comparison (might have been possible, but not without a few extra holes in the shell, methinks). But yes, 16" might just be the compromise between the two!
@@drumdotpizza Thanks for your thoughts! Your channel is terrific. You have a lot of patience too. 🙂
Awesome job making this video! I’m convinced after A/B 14” is superior. Rick beato also did a similar test with same results! I wish I liked the appearance more if shallower depths. Deeper looks better but from a sound perspective it’s undeniable. Thanks!
That is incredible!! Absolutely love the tone of the 18, but like you say the punch of the 14 is sooo good, a way tighter sound. I’m still yet to purchase a legit drumset, and this is good to know. Thank you Joel!
I got to the end. I have a maple Ludwig classic that I originally bought with an 18" deep bass drum that I had cut down to 14" deep. Part of the reason I did that is I came to the realization after purchasing the set that there's a reason why every drummer I see perform in LA has a 14" deep bass drum. I'm glad I did it. The kit really has a good solid punchy sound because of it. I also record it without the front head on to get a more solid punchy sound as well. Thanks for the comparison vid. Well done.
I got to the end and I found your video very interesting. I have three basedrums: 22/20, 22/16 and 24/14. The 22/16 and 24/14 are way punchier than the 22/20. I have thought about having it cut down and now I know it’s the right thing to do. It’s going to be 22/14. Thanks 👍😊
Great video, again. Awesome to hear the same drum against itself for this topic and, man, what a difference!
This was yet another great and necessary addition to the collective knowledge of the drum world - thanks for the video.
On a side note, Yamaha actually offers a travel version of their Stage Custom (the "hip" version) which is shortened to 10 or 12", but still maintains the normal diameter, and apart from being a stage custom, it's been greatly received. Also: I got to the end
I did the exact Same thing with the 24” version of this drum. Such a huge difference. So much so, I’m going to do it to my Gretsch Brooklyn 24x18 next. Great video!
The biggest, deep end and punchy bass drum I have ever heard live was an 18 x 14. It looked like a floor tom. Talking to the drummer he got tired of lugging his set that filled up his truck so he was doing a jazz gig in the city decided to quickly toss in the jazz kit that could be loaded in and out in 2 or 3 trips.
Left it in for the next few gigs and found that after some simple adjustments, it got a load of positive feedback. It had that punch in the chest mixed with the attack which made it not get lost in the bass or mids of the music. It was naturally EQ’d to sit in its own little space above the muddy lows and already crowded mids.
The band played between the NY, Philly and Atlantic City area and had to be able to play rock, jazz, bossanova or whatever the venue was looking for. That kit was a chameleon. It just worked so well in every situation. And he was no longer the first to get in and setup and last to leave.
I’d just purchased my 24 x 18 DW Classic. My next trial was to test a 20 x 16. True enough, it sounds more powerful and fat simply because it can actually be heard within the music.
In theory and sound, the 24 yes is lower than the 20. But what good is it its lost.
Sold the cannon and enjoy hearing my low end little drum.
I made it to the end! I really appreciate how much work you put into these videos! Thanks man! God Bless!
May God bless you as well!!! Thank you for being here.
You Nailed this, your time invested is appreciated.
I’ve always preferred the 14” depth and you’ve surely proved it here. 👍
Hey Joel, I love your channel and this post on bass drum depth. I’m hella old and began my symphony percussion lessons in 1960. Drums were taught as an acoustic listening experience such as bass drums are relatively slow and played anticipating the beat regarding projection, i.e., play a quarter note on snare and bass in exact unison and the bass drum is felt slightly behind tempo out in the audience. In 1965, I used that concept playing a Ludwig 22x14 bass drum a bit anticipated and improved by removing the resonant head. In 1978, I wanted more authority for the bass drum and started using a Gretsch 24x14 bass drum with resonant head in place. At the time pedal beaters were not hitting the head at 90 degrees until the ASBA Caroline pedal came out so I bought one, changed the felt beater to wood, and added a Danmar plastic dot. I had to alter my foot technique just to play the damn thing and when played by itself sounded terrible. However, playing it with a live band was arguably the best sounding bass drum ever heard in the Bay Area at the time. You could say I was anticipating the future like my bass drum notes, so in 1995 started using a DW 22x18 bass drum. The time it took for air to travel that extra four inches caused the drum to respond very slowly and there wasn’t much I could do about it. It sounded great (sonic) but my old school playability of the drum (music) was compromised. Not sure how or if my story plays out in this century of digital studio software. Meanwhile, I’m studying jazz using a Gretsch USA Custom 18x14 bass drum. Anyway, thanks for reading drummin' bros!
I made it to the end Joel! I worked for a top drum maker/ tech/ repairman for a couple years, and he sold me on the 14"depth, especially the crazy big sound of a 20x14. But, it was nice to hear the difference in your video for reality. The only weird one I have is a 20x18 Sonor Prolite. It doesn't have the same command like you said, but it has kind of a cool buah sound with pillows inside and a sheep looking felt beater for a quiet sound. Myore stylistic that actual good sound. I played a monster 1990 Yamaha Rock Tour Custom for almost 30 years with square sizes and (2) 24x18's ... wouldn't go back.
I've had lots of bass drums from 26" to 18". I'm playing a 14" x 18" bass now. Best sounding one ever.
Same here.
I got to the end! I also love the 14 inch depth for the bass drum. I primarily play metal, and my favorite kit to use in that setting has a pair of 24x14 kicks, and it CRUSHES. I also occasionally use my 28x14 for rock and metal, and it also does extremely well! Something about that depth is just... (chef's kiss)
Thanks for the comparison in kick depths, very cool! I guess I am somewhere in between with my 2 Ludwig 16"x24" Power Kicks. And yes, I'll enjoy my extra set of spurs, too!
Wow! Great job with this! As drummers, we're constantly tweaking, tuning, & chasing the dragon. The more I learn this all has to do with moving air. We kinda just think hit skin, boom sound. Without thinking of the air moving in the shell as we play.
I always used 22" x 16" kicks then 22" x 18" kicks. K changed to a 20" x 14" kick when storage space became an issue and it was by far and away the best kick I've ever heard. I currently only use a mid range Natal kit, but that bass drum is a keeper
This is a well done A/B comparison. Nice back & forth segment. Gadd likes 14” deep because he hears the return faster. No one stays on beat better than he, so I can believe he can sense or detect the response.
My mind was changed when the old modern drummer podcast with Mike and Mike addressed this. Now I find it hard to find new kits I want because of the marketing gimmick to sell more expensive finishes.
Very nice video!!
I'm glad I bought my drum set with 22 "x16" instead of x18" bass drums a year ago.
Your video confirms my suspicion from back then that this will suit my taste.
However, I have to confess that I cut out the resonance heads to approx. 21". But in my opinion it's perfect for old school death metal.
This was a very interesting experiment, well executed and a very accurate comparison exercise. I personally found this very useful and what its telling me is that pretty much regardless of size, if it sounds right ( to you ) then it is right. I knew there was a very good reason why I mostly prefer smaller bass drums.
Great video and comparison! And yes, I got to the end👍🏻 I also prefer a 14” deep bass drum. In fact, I prefer standard depth toms too. I was surprised when I discovered this in the mid 1990s when I purchased my early 1970s Rogers kit in standard sizes (with a 24x14 bass drum) and realized how much I preferred the sound to my mid 1980s Yamaha Recording Custom drums in power sizes.
I made it to the end! I liked the 14 inch because there’s less of that high-end ring in the drum. The bigger drum does have a more complex sound, I think. But as far as power, the smalker drum totally kicks butt!
Funny . . . I've played all and now I am glad my 22" is 18 deep . . . low end depth is much more pronounced. I also have a 20" which is 16" deep and while it has more attack and punch, the 22 with 18 makes the room move. . . I am playing Yamaha PHX kit.
I made it to the end Joel! I appreciate is of your videos. There’s a huge difference with a 14” bass drum. I had no idea? I like how Stanton Moore is using both and has a 24”x14” bass drum kind of off to the side.