What Type Of Bad Track Causes Derailments? | Model Train Experiment
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มี.ค. 2022
- An experiment to find out which types of bad track cause the most derailments!
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I feel like people who build layouts can relate a lot to some of the tighter tracks scenarios or fish plates not lining up perfectly, especially if you’re making an uncommon track plan. Very insightful video again Sam. Good stuff!
yea i can
I can too
Yeah definitely - I noticed problems with the fishplates when I did my tight curves experiment... glad I model standard British railways!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I can
I remember when I was quite young that one of my friends had a simple oval layout on a half size board in his bedroom. So I took along a Triang 040 electric unit with a pantograph to try it out. He then wound the controller up to full yet my little engine went round the bends on 2 wheels but didn't fall off! Mind you, his did and he did a bit of damage to it. He wasn't pleased and I wasn't invited back!
Wow! That's quite impressive - maybe the Tri-ang magnahedsion was keeping it on the tracks?
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
i love how random are the experiments you make with the models, i enjoy watching this
haha thank you! Glad you enjoy them! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
SAM FIT SOME BUFFER STOPS! My heart! Cool video by the way! :)
That diesel is a Class 22, not a 29. The Class 29s were re-engined Class 21s.
At this point, I'm just waiting for Sam to do a test where he tests how much strain a loco can be put under before it breaks or dies. At this point, there has to be an engine he wouldn't mind submitting to that level of torture, like an average Heljan steam engine...
haha yeah, maybe I will try that some time? lol! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
The Hornby Class 66.
You goal of providing entertainment was fulfilled completely, Sam. It was well-timed too, as just a few days ago I experienced the first mysterious derailment on my layout. I eventually tracked it down to a new heavily car and one tiny piece of ballast in a flangeway. For some reason, regular weight cars and my locos had no problems with it. Go figure. By the way, the lack of a buffer/bumper on the far end of the track in the first two sets of trials nearly gave me a heart attack. Cheers from Wisconsin!
That's very good news Andrew, glad you enjoyed it! Blimey - crazy that a tiny piece of ballast can cause such a problem... definitely not surprised though, I've had similar things happen to me too!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Sam, I love it when you do these kinds of experiments! Always a blast to watch!
Thanks so much - really glad you like them! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Thanks Sam. Yo look like you had fun doing this video. And really it is very useful. The fish plate problem has appeared on my layout. I had not noticed that I put the track together badly. Over the years I have been given several lots of track: Hornby, Triang, Peco, Tyco, ... At first sight many of them appear to fit together but the height of the rail can be different and so I can feel a bump at the connection which can cause a derail. Fun and helpful.
Thanks Robert - it was a lot of fun for sure! It's surprisingly easy to mis-fit the fishplates - I've done it myself too! And that's a great point - mixing different track brands causes problems too!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Thanks Sam, it highlights the need to be more careful with track laying. And, you tried to find explanations for derailing! That was good. Cheers
ThanksSam ,being a newbie you managed to cover all my initial mistakes, seriously very useful in understanding these faults . Well done...
A rather handy video since I'm in the process of building a small industrial layout (a distillery to be precise) and one of the features I've toyed with the notion of is rough track. Useful to get an idea of what I can get away with but will still run reliably.
Love your videos, always a joy to watch. 👍
SUPER, Information, Good choices for "bad track" tests... .. TANKS Sam !
I love how leading and trailing wheels do the exact opposite of their intended purpose in model railways.
This was an interesting test with potential flaws and weaknesses super-exposed. We had a bit of curved track knocking locos off. That stretch was indeed R1, and vintage tinplate (Märklin - equivalent to Hornby dublo 3-rail) on top. We used it after a straight section of the same vintage rails as all of this was not in sight. All the rest is k-rail (plastic sleepers). Turned out that the curves were warped deranging the gauge width at that point. One loco however never failed; a small but relatively heavy 3 axle steamer with small wheels; like your peckett but 3 axles. B’B’ locos seem to be able to absorb much as well, but everything has a limit. Great test this Sam. Thanks.
You remind me I have some test to do in OO with R1 curves, to check if a Peckett can haul a warwell on those tracks without derailing.
Thanks for sharing Linda - yeah R1 is a killer - I'd definitely avoid it if possible!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Oddly enough, Märklin's R1 isn't much of a problem. Motors can make more noise on them, but they manage. All stock can handle it. Short couplings are a different story of course. It was the warped tinplate R1. In the Märklin world, it is R0 that usually is to be avoided (industrial curve).
My track has been relayed several times on the same 6x4 baseboard over the years and I now have the odd gap in the fishplates but don't get derailments on those. I only get derailments when I miss a piece of rolling stock uncoupling or one of my points fail so this was an interesting video to watch. Thank you Sam for doing this video
Very interesting video Sam I really liked it. I know I have had a lot of problems with bad laid track in the past especially with the old Ho track. It was hard to lay properly unless you had perfectly smooth base . Thanks for this video.
Thanks so much Louis - a solid base definitely seems essential!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Your 'badly' laid track is VERY realistic. Standing behind the Nickel Plate or NYC freight trains as they rolled thru our town in the 1950's, we watched them wiggle, wobble and sway (sounds like a law firm) into the distance. Very entertaining for small town boys...
Loved that. Found it very interesting.
I like the Yellow "Buffer Buster" post at the crash exit of the switch !
Very enjoyable Sam. Great experiment. All the best.
Thanks very much Tim! :D
I have spent considerable time trying to trouble shoot my own bad set track laying habits. As for your excellent reviews, I really, really, really, really, really want you to start running your evaluated pieces through some of your switches that we might gain some additional insight as to how well they perform.
Amazing Sam, keep up the good work. I was wondering if you could do a video of all of the things elcheapo has found over the years. Thanks
22:41 pretty easy challenge but the D16 had its drive wheels raised up a bit in reverse. Also these challenges are pretty cool. It can make people learn on how to make proper tracks on a layout
Ahh good spot!! Yeah hopefully it'll help people know what to avoid, though I guess it's mostly obvious! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Fantastic video sam think train weight and build definatley has a lot to do with it too as have a hornby pendolino the comes off for fun and was scratching my head for ages but when i put a heavier loco as the same speeds on there is no issue at all also find steam locos without spring loaded front guiding wheels are really tough as the seem to come off for fun
very usefull info great sam cheers
Another great presentation Sam 👍
I like the "Tilt-Test hump. The slow freights thru my home town in Ohio would wobble since they didn't bother to maintain the the tracks through town. Fun to watch from rear view after they passed.
Hi sam I hope you're ok
Now i have seen this it helps me relise how bad some of my past tracks have been
Very important to test everything. I always test every stage. Make sure is level and joiners are properly connected. My O gauge layout is even more important. Thanks
i think this sort of testing would be really useful in your full reviews of locos.
It would! But sadly there just wouldn't be time to do all of this in every review :(
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
This was very interesting, as a beginner I have had much difficulty laying my N gauge track which is a mixture of standard and flexitrack. I decided to lay on foam with part of it glued and part with track pins. In addition the baseboard is in two parts and the join is not completely level (I was never any good at woodwork). It would have been an excellent track for this test if it had been the same scale, it has some joins particularly between the standard track and flexitrack with some gaps and the track fixed with pins slopes sideways in places! Despite this I have a couple of locos which never derail and the rest do occasionally which is annoying, I might have to scrap some of it and start again.
Hi Sam, great video topic. Although you may have set out to be mischievious you ended up high lighting a good number of issues. Having bought a Hornby D12 recently I thought that the tender was very light and am intending to add some weight to it - so it comes out a ~25g per axle. That should stop it rattling and acting as a sound box as well as not getting dragged of the rails on corners with heavier trains.
Good test. Based on what we see here, if we have troubles on a layout, we can find the cause with the behavior of the vehicles involved. Anyway, a good laying of the track is always a good thing to take care of. Thanks for the video !
Yeah I think so too - I've often blamed locos/wagons rather than trackwork... though good trackwork minimises trouble with even the worst locos!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Nice different setups of track with different sized locomotives! Reminds me of RaceGrooves testing out different Hot Wheels cars on different types of track that he built so we can learn what locomotives or Hot Wheels cars work on track and which ones do not.
Thank you!! Ooh that sounds interesting - I'll have to watch that myself! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I love these Model Train Experiment
Thank you Sam! :D
well that was differnt ! Always best where you can to advoide tight trackwork, and tight short points! Good little video!
Thanks Mike! Yeah I wasn't expecting the locos to handle the points/curves quite as well as they did!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Hi Sam, what a brilliant idea to see where track laying can be a problem. This was an excellent idea of yours and proved so many issues. I have a lot of 1st Radius curves and had to be careful which trains I bought. Saying that, my track must be okay, as I have the Hogwarts Express 4-6-0 with tender and it runs better than my 4-4-0 . I did do the tunnels in 2nd and 3rd radius as these would be harder to access in the event of failure/derailment. I have bought a number of trains purely because of your videos and your rating system; which is 2nd to none. I do have a problem with my 4-4-0, with rubber traction tyres, no longer pulling up the incline and wondered if it's because of the way I've cleaned my track with INOX or an Electrical Conductive solution. Have the rubber tyres been affected by these??? It used to be a beast at pulling up the hill and now it can't make it up on it's own ??? Please help me as I trust your opinion as a born again Railway Modeler.
Entertaining and has a useful purpose.
Now we know why trains on the Penn Central railroad were always derailing. LOL! Great video, Sam.
haha yeah I've heard a lot about those, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I can definitely attest to having track issues! Mainly when it comes to spacing with the fish plates as I’m running an oval, and when working with my curves which are second radius on the outer of the two tracks. I try to not leave any spacing if possible, but the design of the board and the upgrades I did to it to expand it mean that there’s slight spacing on the curves, however I’m lucky that the main cause of derailments usually comes from just had wheel alignment! I find they are absolutely fine as well if the couplers are spaced, and if I need to keep the fishplates separate, I try to keep it even along the track. Let’s not talk about the time I knocked my 47 off tho…and nearly an Aussie diesel…
thanks for addressing these problems . on my layout one of my straight track one rail is slightly bent and it slightly goes up
Yeah I've seen that too before - that sort of thing does cause trouble!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I really love how my p2 does on a normal oval layout
I've had a fair bit of experience with a variety of track plans and a variety of rolling stock, and I've certainly experienced some problems with derailing. The single biggest predictor of derailments with a loco, in my experience, is a pony truck. Pony trucks leading a loco are more prone than anything else to coming off the rails. I've had some locos (e.g. a quite recent Hornby 8F) where it was only possible to avoid derailments on well-laid second radius curves by doing extensive work on the mounting of the pony truck. Propelling trains is also very prone to cause derailments (as opposed to pulling the train). If the track is reasonably laid (no overlapped fishplates or ridiculous humps - anyone should be able to eliminate those when they get their layout properly down), then the thing most likely to cause derailments, by far, is points. Combining two factors, propelling a train across a point set to turn is very likely to cause derailment. Of course older rolling stock, which may be poorly gauged or have weirdly-sized flanges, is much more likely to derail, and it may be necessary to change the wheels on some of that older stock to get it to run on modern track (even when the track is properly laid). For propelling trains, compatibility of the couplings will be a big factor - you'll be lucky if you can push stock round curves and over points if the coupling loops are not smoothly running against each other at the same height. On the other hand, I've found that slight gaps in the rails at joins generally don't cause too much of a problem, and can be very hard to avoid sometimes, especially when working with flex track. Always an interesting topic, as what use is a layout if you can't actually get your trains to run on it?
Thanks for sharing! Yes I've seen a lot of problematic ponies too - particularly on points as you say!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I thought it was only me and my amateur train set building, 😠, but then again I am still experimenting so far, I purchased another box set of a diesel locomotive, and it really is amazing. ☺.
Sweet model test run for the tracks.
Thanks for the video Sam amazing work. my Santa's express isn't working this is similar to my problem
Love that this video was meant to be a learning experience but all I learned was how much bad track I can actually get away with
nice video sam, I think you should have had a incline between the track pieces.
That's a great idea Jay - wish I'd thought of that!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Sams Trains are just another version of therapy
On my layout I have laid the curves with an incline to the inner side. It was indeed tricky to avoid derailments 🙂 good video 👍
haha really?! On the inner side?! You madman!! Some real railways do have banking, but of course that's on the outer side!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Well, my English is probably not good enough to explain what I mean 😄😁. The lower part is on the inside. But it was nightmare to get it right, lots of derailments in the beginning, especially on the curved points. Thanks for learning me the word “banking”, I didn’t know how it was called
There is an NEM standard to cover this. It is NEM 114.
Are you planning on doing a review for the APT-E? Great video, by the way! :D
Nah I'm not sadly, as cool as they look!
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Being a American,Bachmann EZ track points always gives me problems no matter how the tracks are laid,but because the points are just awful,when i bought the Hornby track expansions i was so impressed how my bachmann Irish Rail N Class could breeze over it
Great video, Sam
Thank you! :D
I learned a lot here. I wasn't even aware of the hammering-in-the-track-pins-too-tightly problem.
Awesome! Yeah I figured that out when laying track myself - it's not a problem if you're doing it on a solid surface, but if you use softer track underlay, it can happen!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
When you fit the front steps to the railroad p2 it means it can't even go round 3rd radius as the front bogie touches the steps and doesn't rotate enough which is quite ridiculous considering its intended market are likely to have 3rd radius curves if not tighter.
Oh wow really?! Probably a good job Hornby don't fit them as standard then... I bet some manufacturers *cough heljan cough* might have done that! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
I find myself yelling stop to close to the edge ....my heart thanks for that Sam
haha I know... I came a little close at times! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Main problems that cause derailment. Tight turns , uneven track , not properly connected rail joiners , bad turn outs and trains moving way to fast into a turn.
Interesting experiment. Shows how much slip there is on RTR chassis, allowing them to get round train set curves. The payoff is waddling on the straight. Irony alert: Building dodgy track on a level surface when the main layout is on carpet.
Thanks a lot John - yeah very much so - and the irony wasn't lost on me, lol ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I think there are 2 major problems with this way of testing.
1. Choosing to run at a set power instead of at a set speed
2. Disqualifying the trains instead of something like ranking them 0-2 based on derailments in each test
😂😂😂 good luck with your bumps Sam !!
those bumps on track 3 would kill the polar express from Lionel and the Thomas and friends Bachmann locomotives for sure
Rough track can absolutely contribute to funky running..Had more than enough stuff wreck on camera due to questionable track on a club layout!
Love your videos
That's very kind of you! :D
A very interesting experiment, Sam. One configuration you missed was a steam loco with a working leading bogey, and a working trailing bogey (The Hornby P-2 does not have a working trailing bogey).
Also, on a separate note, you were referenced in the February 2022 issue of Model Rail magazine, issue 296. Not by name though. On page 25, Author Chris Leigh's opinion piece refers to "amateurs 'reviewing' models on TH-cam," and "test running a £200 model on Setrack laid on the carpet?" I wonder who he is referring to?
The snobbery of the model magazine writers is always impressive.
Very informative
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
The real culprit here is solid loco chassis. With the price that loco manufacturers charge, they should be able to fit some kind of suspension (compensation) - and a flywheel. All the 0-4-0's need is one rocking axle.
YES! Train science! Please sir, may I have some more? 😀
haha sure!! If you've got more ideas, then yes! :D
I think the main issue with track laying when the layout is in the loft is the heat and cold. This has to be considered when you are laying it and how much gaps you leave. I laid mine in the winter so my track was cold so had to leave massive gaps. I still get a bit of buckling thou if I forget to open the windows.
Nice experiment Sam. I feel sorry for those poor locomotives though 😂
Thank you so much! haha I know... it was rough on them!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
SOMETIME mass, inertia and momentum make positive impacts on the moving tests ! not to mention bearing slop and wheel track width, flange size .... you've a LOT of things to consider. Major issues do top your testing protocols.
Ah yes professor Sam's trains is back at it with another strange adventure into how to challenge himself and or trains to do stuff they are (supposedly) not meant to do. i still remember trains doing alright in the pool and turning on err -2 radius turns.
Excellent i like it when creative minds just try and poke something.
haha thank you!! Yeah some of these models are capable of amazing things... running under water was super impressive!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
This man is the true scientist of model railways haha
haha maybe you're right, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
Test 1. Some locos/units don't like 1st radius at all, my hornby pendolino derailed whenever it came into contact with a 1st radius curve. I also doubt a bachmann 40 or 44/45/46 would manage 1st radius either.
Test 2. Nice to see the use of some steel track. Which is a pain to keep clean for DCC operation... I also find light tenders are an issue when the locos are loaded heavily, so both my P2 and peppercorn A1s have had weights added to their tenders for stability. I also find Bo-Bo diesels very very reliable, to the point that if I need something to run over any of my trackwork repeatedly without stopping, I'll choose a bachmann 25. Also, you'll notice the p2's tender at 50% and the drivers at 30% plus the 52xx derailed at the same point on the points, which is an issue I've often seen with hornby points, so I've swapped to using peco ones for better reliability (when I need settrack points. I generally use streamline points).
Test 3. Surprised all remaining locos managed.
Test 3a. Not surprised about the steamers, but I reckon a bachmann 25 may have done better than the dapol 29 (my only dapol diesel at the moment is a 68, not sure how that'd cope because it's so huge yet still Bo-Bo).
I really need to get one (or several) of those hornby pecketts, and a hattons barclay to compare them to.
I knew from the start that round 3 would be easy. The only issues that could cause is very long fixed wheelbases coming off on a hump, or top heavy locos tipping over. All the long fixed wheelbases were already out, with the pannier being the worst, and decent locos generally have die cast chassis, and are thus not at all top heavy. The only locos you has that I think would have been at all challenged by round 3 were the P2 and the prairie, and the bad fishplate already did them in. A misaligned fishplate into a first radius point is the worst semi reasonable thing I can think of for a loco. I wish you hadn't eliminated locos but instead kept score, I'd have really liked to see how the prairie did on the lumps.
I'm not surprised at the precedent in round 4 either, it has a very short fixed wheelbase, but the tender has a fairly long fixed wheelbase, just like the pannier, so it came off the same way the pannier did. The D16 was a bit of a surprise, my guess is that the spring actually rotated the bogie a little bit as it decompressed and unwound, causing it to come back down at an angle. I think a 4-4-0 with a free floating bogie would actually do better. I think the diesel came off because it didn't have enough flex in the bogies, a diesel with looser bogies would have probably gone over that just like 2 0-4-0s. It couldn't conform to the curvature, though, and lifted the front axel off.
Astonishingly, I think your first 3d printed loco would actually be fine. With it's incredibly loose bogie, it would probably do fairly well over the lumps.
The Peckett should have failed on the third test, since its wheel base is so short, it was unable to pick up voltage and needed several shoves to get it going again. One of the issues with poorly laid track is poor conductivity. So while you were punishing bigger locos for not staying on the track, the 0-4-0 failed because it could not complete the course.
Finally some answers to a process of elimination.
So fascinating video
Thanks a lot Justin! :D
Very interesting video today Sam
Thank you James! :D
11” is the minimum radius for most engines. My layout is a roundy with 11” curves. No problem with most stock. The Hornby genesis coaches look great on them
Most British models have a minimum radius of 17" - many will go below that, but the problems start when you mix different combinations of rolling stock with different couplings! Even my 17" curves cause problems with certain combinations!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Could you do something on how to fix locos stopping on Hornby points? Thanks for anything you can show us about fixing this common issue.
That's an interesting idea - I could look into that!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Interesting. I wonder how the following would do:
-Co-Co diesel or electric
-Garratt, Mallet, & other articulated steam
-Geared locos like Shay, Climax, & Heisler
-Diesels/electrics with big bogie/truck frames, like GG-1 electric & Baldwin Centipede diesel.
I know that the geared steam & smaller Mallets used in logging & mining railways were designed specifically for handling poorly-laid track in real life. There are some rarely-used branchlines today even in the US with *atrocious* track work. Watching trains lurching over such lines can be nerve-wracking.
This only proves we need a Hornby Peckett vs Smokey Joe showdown
Sam you should do this test on each review…I would definitely consider purchasing a more expensive train if it can handle tighter curves/poor track
haha great idea! It'd be a bit of a faff to set all this up for every review though ;)
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
@@SamsTrains perhaps adding a de-rail alley to the layout?
The lack of backstops is giving me severe anxiety for your locos
What a thorough video! What is your opinion on Bachman EZ track?
Thank you! I think it's a great idea... but the stuff I tried didn't work very well - didn't fit together properly, and had steel track which rusted :/
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I hate it. The most unrealistic track I've ever seen. Kato and Trix pre-ballasted track is much better.
This is a MOST USEFUL video. Thanks for all your work in making it AND sharing.
Me? I'm off to the Doctor's now - to explain these three new bulges on my layout...
Thanks for the tips, I want to ask, what should I do for a layout with little space? Also I would like to see more of the maroon princess royal class locomotive. Thanks
No problem!! You can do a straight shunting layout in a pretty small space - you can google track plans! :D
Thanks for watching - Sam :)
This reminds me of the videos Sam did on shunting puzzles. Those are so much fun, and can give just as much enjoyment as actually running trains around a loop. You can also add more sidings and cars for more complexity and challenge. If you are actually nailing things onto a baseboard, you could also attach your shunting yard onto a loop later on for even more enjoyment, actually being able to rearrange trains and then send them off onto the main line once you get more room.
My brain :
Please put buffers at the end hahahaha
I'm surprised that you haven't put buffers at the end of the track Sam - I think that a 0-4-0 can handle any conditions of track!!! 😉🚂🚂🚂
haha I did do later on... after the close shaves, lol! ;D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
One big takeaway from this vid for me is: ensure that the electrical connections are good. That seems almost more important than derailing prevention.
Precisely so. I wish I could use more meter-long flexes in place of short pieces...And then the contact issues inside the sixty-year-old locos.
@@jmi5969 You may want to look at Piko flex track, one of the cheapest you can buy. It looks fairly similar to Hornby track
Yeah definitely - well worth investing time into multiple electrical connections! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@jmi5969 Maybe option when using short track sections is to solder them together?
Edit: is recommended against, see response below
@@diedertspijkerboer No you don't it is AWFUL which is why it is cheap.
The first track layout is every Budget Model Railways track plan lol
🚂🇨🇦🇬🇧 🙋
Can you please make a video on how to set up the Bachman Thomas light house and windmill work?
The real test was your ability to multitask by not letting the engines fall of the table, whilst judging their performance. I have got to say, I felt a little uneasy from the start, then the two rear tender axles of the P2 coming off the tracks at the end of Round 1 made me mediumly uneasy to put it mildly.
haha yep - there were some hairy moments and close shaves, haha! Yes it's difficult to watch locos derail... I hate it too!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Hi Sam. Been quite a while since I’ve watched a video. Been busy with GCSE’s. Back now to enjoy all the content I’ve missed. Just as good as I remembered. Keep it up, Isaac!
Nice to see you again - hope your GCSEs went well - good luck with the results! Thanks for the kind words :D
Sam :)
With the engine Cock O The North being a longer ridged wheelbase you could see when it hit the rail over the fish plate it raised the whole engine including the lead wheels off the track.
It would be interesting to design a layout around being tough to navigate like in the video, and could give some character and life to operating such a layout- a sleepy mountain track only to be operated by a driver who knows it in and out, perhaps?
It could be a challenge, too- here's a layout that's barely able to be travelled without derailing, let's see how carefully you really operate your trains...
At this point your starting to seem like the Flex Seal commercials lol
Good lord that precedent is ludicrously fast