My favorite thing is when you are playing the game for the third time, know exactly what to tell our companions to make them do what we want, then realize the Emperor is doing the exact same thing with you.
Honestly, I think one of the smartest narrative decisions they made with the Emperor was having us interact and learn to trust Omeluum first. It made it much easier to "trust" the Emperor after its initial reveal since we clearly had an example of a mind flayer whose intentions were more morally justifiable.
I never meet my homie omeluum in my firts run, so when i see the emperor i trust at firts but then he try to turn me in to a mindflayer and i read that like a friend trying to introduce you into drugs or something like that, so i decide to free orpheos becouse gith deserve freedom and the emperor just decide to run away at firts, most thing that is a plot hole but for me that was the comfirmation that the emperor it wasnt a homie
tbf he's no longer Balduran. Probably he was balduran. A mindflayer's just a body with the memory of whoever brain they absorved. And mindflayers can absorb each others too. Who knows how many mindflayers has Balduran's Memory gone through.
@@TheBlarggle lol, my memory was a bit foggy on the exact year but I do remember I was working night shifts so I played a lot of Skyrim on my off nights because it was that or cable tv infomercials at 1 am.
Except our Tav/origin character since Withers can find us in the afterlife if we kill ourselves after killing the big brain. Which even he finds surprising.
Withers specifies that ilithids have souls, but not apostolic souls, meaning ilithid souls are outside what the gods (good and bad) can interact with and gain power from. It's why he's so angry with the Dead Three. Their little netherbrain plan would rip away thousands of souls at once just at the outset, and then spread on Toril and beyond, weakening the gods tremendously and ushering in a second ilithid empire. The Dead Three would also be weakened by this, but their attitude seems to be that it is worth making themselves much weaker, just as long as the other gods looses.
@@suntiger745the only creatures with souls in dnd are humans, pseudo humans like (half elves and genasi), dwarves, halflings, and gnomes. Everything else has what are called spirits and basically when they die they are reincarnated after spending a bit of time in their afterlife. It's why in previous editions you couldn't revive elves or monsters. Also no Withers says Mind Flayers do not possess souls. But regardless previous editions lore generally trumps anything added by later source material.
@@notthefbi7015 That isn't how canon works. The Canon is the official version of events, meaning the version of the world reflected in the most recent texts. In terms of canon, regardless of how you feel about it, newer material always trumps older material, as canon is supposed to reflect the current intentions of the writer, not the original intentions of the writer.
@@suntiger745 So im thinking in DnD, there is no clear answer if Illithid comes from the underdark or from the far realms. I think in this game its more the latter that is considered true. The far realm is said to be as something which lies at the end of things in the Phlogiston in the lords of madness book. Gods usually fear / hate the phlogiston because they have no ability to act there, they have no power here, they cant even see into it. It is also said that gods cannot change - fix the crystal spheres separating the planets from the phlogiston. Which implies, it was not created by them but by some sort of gods of gods. If you die in the phlogiston your soul cannot go to heaven or hell as it has no connection anymore (to dumb it down, it floats in deep space), you turn into some sort of a wandering space ghost / monster. So to me, its more like, if you become illithid, your soul just falls outside the sphere you were born into. Gods usually do not like that. To me this could be the only solution for withers being able to bring us to the party. Is that, we still have a soul, its just not in the crystal, but on how Withers could reach out to it, if its not visible to gods, is a big question mark. If we are at the party, we either still have a normal soul or we have a wandering soul in the phlogiston and Withers is some sort of god of gods that is able to see into the phlogiston to bring us back. Which would make no sense. I dunno fam im just thinking, they added to many new ending to this plot tha tmakes it confusing as fuck.
@@shadowldrago Also he has some dialogue together with the other person in the underdark talking about how he is trying to create synthetic brains to feed on.
Even on my first play through when he said he never lies to me, then when i called him out for all his lies he said "illusion is in the nature of illithids". Like cmon guy
The fact that he doesn't hesitate to betray you after deciding to free Orpheus just shows his true nature. Then again, I shouldv'e been convinced about it, after knowing that he killed his best friend, just to saved himself.
@@JWalters388That goes both ways though - if you don't free Orpheus and just give him the stones, he does exactly as you agreed. I think this is just the game trying to validate your choices.
It always irks me how he treats Orpheus like a slave and prevents us from speaking with him and insists that Orpheus will definitely kill us. His treatment of Orpheus was the most suspicious thing that always rubbed me the wrong way.
The moment I hear the Ansar’s account, it was my last straw on trusting the Emperor. I thought it was out of blue when I saw a brief spoiler but hearing what happened to the Bronze Dragon was enough to let me know that Emperor isn’t what he seems to be.
Illithids can still be good and not egomaniacal. Even though Karlach wants brains, she talks about consuming the brain of the terminal woman who is giving her consent to do so as a way of honoring her memories. And Omeluum, despite appearing to have been a mind flayer for many years, is still selfless, offering to trade you the ring that protects him from elder brains, and encouraging you to focus on saving duke ravengard instead of himself in the iron throne. Good mind flayers exist, the Emperor just isn't one of them.
@FiguringOutFantasy Indeed. It's worth noting that Balduran wasn't a very nice guy even when he was alice. Charismatic, capable and able to emotionally connect to people in a way that the mindflayer isn't, but his pride and ambition also had him act quite a bit like Columbus in the americas when he was in Anchorome.
Is there any books or text that says that? I really wanna read more on that now, I 've only heard positives about the man through bits of lore@@suntiger745
Omeluum lies about the ring though, it doesn't actually do shit. He even admits as much and says he only gave it to you to give you a false sense of protection
@@kahn9980 Did you get this dialogue yourself or hear about from someone else? Because I've never gotten any dialogue like that (and I have the ring and met him in act 3) and can't find anything about it online.
Balduran had much of the same attitude in life. He did care about his friends and crew, but he was a pragmatist. It's just that when he was human, he would make sure he and his friends survived, even if it meant they lost treasure or boons. After he becomes an ilithid this virtue is turned into a vice and it only extends to himself.
I just finished my first playthrough and that is exactly how I felt about the Emperor. I started viewing him as my character's Cazador/ Vlaakith/ Shar. He was the monkey on my character's back- full of false promises so I would serve his interests. I knew my character was going to eventually betray him when I first learned of Orpheus. It seemed like the older he got, the less human he became. For the good of the realm, it was time for him to die.
The emperor : I will side with the brain for no reason I want to survive Tav : you’ve been in my head right have you seen my body counts do you think you’ll survive my wrath
Wish there was option with Omeluum. Like maybe backup or avoid the “let’s turn into Mindflayer”…maybe argument with Society of Brilliance who relented about sacrificing their top scientist…assuming if Netherbrain got him.
Honestly, it was even more obvious to anyone who played the early access. There the Dream Visitor wasn't portrayed as a guardian but rather as your greatest desire. They immediately tried to convince you to embrace the tadpole, and gave you a new Illithid ability as a "gift", as there was no Illithid skill tree in the game yet. They did a great job rewriting the story to make it a lot less obvious what he really was.
Nope i figured it was either a mindflayer, or just a manifestation of the tadpole seeking control. I vaguely remember Lae Z saying something about not ebing able to trust even your own mind, and then shortly after that here comes this "guardian" saying we should totally embrace the tadpole. No way no how not for my Tiefling Sorc.
It was pretty obvious when it came to the Early Access where the way it was framed was very explicitly "this is your Tadpole showing you what you most desire to get you to it's side and to merge with it".
Yep. Orpheus has been trapped there for centuries. The Emperor gets into the prism sometime between the opening cinematic and Shadowheart getting captured. It's likely Vlaakith doesn't know about him.
I thought so as well and took it as a misinterpretation from the party‘s side UNTIL I replayed the Game. Do you remember the Githyanki group you Had to fight short before you arrive in Emperor's hideout? Before the fight you have a conversation with the female Githyanki. She tells you that she knows about the corrupted inhabitant of the Astral prism, who ist called the Emperor. She called out his Name, so Vlaakith must have known about him because you can ask where they have all the information from: Vlaakith sees and knows everything. You can tell them that there ist not just the Emperor inside the Prism and he will ask you to stay silent.
@@FiguringOutFantasy It's revealed through a conversation with Lae'zel immediately after the Dream GUardian/Emperor reveal that when Vlaakith sent you into the Astral Prism to 'slay the one who dwells within', she was sending you to kill Orpheus, not the Emperor. For as much as she goes on about how powerful she is, Vlaakith isn't nearly as omniscient as she claims: she didn't know who stole the Prism out from under her nose, nor did she even know that a mind flayer had snuck into the Prism when she wasn't looking and was controlling Orpheus' powers. As for why Vlaakith would send the player to kill Orpheus despite having wanted to using Orpheus' powers for herself, in both Lae'zel's and the Emperor's own words: "A weapon is only useful so long as it isn't pointed toward you. Vlaakith kept Orpheus imprisoned so long as she believed she could one day gain control of his powers, but she would rather kill Orpheus and be rid of those powers altogether than risk the single greatest threat to her reign potentially being freed."
@@FiguringOutFantasyI think the most likely answer is that the best way to convince you, but more Lae’zel tbh, to kill Orpheus is simply to claim that he is “an agent of the Grand Design.” In other words, the force behind the tadpole in your head for the PC, and the thing all Githyanki are sworn to fight against above all else for Lae’zel.
One of the most telling moments of dialogue with the Emperor actually comes from your first interaction with the Dream Guardian, and immediately set me against trusting them. When you first meet them, the Dream Guardian says, "There is great potential within you. It comes from the tadpole." This IMMEDIATELY set me on edge, as the Emperor plays his hand so readily in this moment - he lets you know right away that he does not care about your humanity, but rather the illithid power you carry. It's such a blink-and-you-miss-it moment, but after that single line, I completely lost any ability to trust the Emperor.
funny because astarion is the most beloved character, but he literally tries to kill you right when you first meet, AND THEN AGAIN at your first nights rest at camp. but hey, hes a hot pale femboy vampire so he gets a pass.
@shmoga Oh, no - Astarion is 100% a hot mess in Act 1. You're not going to get any argument from me there, haha. I think the big thing that makes him a likable character for me is his growth as a person. At first, he's just perpetuating the cycle of abuse that he's known his whole life (apart from his 34 mortal years, which is barely a blip at this point). If you're not on the offense, you'll be taken advantage of. That's the lesson he internalized from his abuser. So naturally, until he realizes you're useful to him, he tries to stay in a position of physical power over you. When he joins you, he tries to keep you in line with manipulation. In that way, at least, he's not so different from the Emperor. The difference is his heel turn in Act 2. Astarion starts to realize he doesn't need to be an abuser and that you're worthy of his trust, to the point that - in Act 3 - you can literally talk him down from the brink of becoming just as bad as Cazador. In the Epilogue, he's done a full 180, having gone from "Gods, saving the Emerald Grove was such a waste of time" to "Sup, I'm vampire Batman now. Get got, criminals." Similar things can be said about both Shadowheart and Lae'zel.
I didnt trust the guardian first but then after what he said and he saves us from transformation, i trusted him buuuuut then for no fucking reason the guardian is in a sexy outfit, and i was like: heeeelllllll no, you try to hide something so yeah dont trust you, but in the end the emperor is puuuuur neutral.
Yeah this is what did it for me, though I initially believed from this interaction that the dream Guardian was actually my own tadpole trying to manipulate me.
I think it would've been much more compelling, (and more logical) for the Emperor to dip out of the fight entirely should the player choose to free Orpheus, rather than join up with the Elder Brain. For him to leave us with an ominous threat, only to be mentioned in rumors or whispers in the epilogue, would've been much more impactful, both in the game and in the lore of Faerun as a whole. Was also bummed that Omeluum couldn't fulfill the role of our Illithid ally, instead of trusting the Emperor or turning someone else. Would've been a nice reward for the players who did the extra work of venturing to the Underdark and breaking into the prison.
I finally beat the game. It would have been nice if WOTC didn’t make Larian want to move on from the game so fast. Think they might have wanted to weave in those types of ending options. I didn’t bump into Omeuluum until my dark urge play through. He’s already a great option for tree branching more endings.
Sincerely late for this reply, but if I recall, the Emperor doesn't have a choice. Once he leaves the safety of Orpheus's influence/power (as Orpheus is the one who protects anyone from the elder brain's influence), his mind becomes seized by the elder brain, and he's pulled back into her control.
A friend of mine, on our first playthrough, "accidentally" slept with the Emperor. When we found out the twist, I shouted at him “OH! You really _did_ enter Baldur's Gate!”
The thing that i find most fascinating about the Emperor is that he lies and manipulates you throughout the entire game, and you find out just how much he sees you as a puppet only if you push back against him. But ultimately if you choose to trust him he does exactly what he always says he's going to do and destroys the Netherbrain. Only if you choose to interfere does he take control over it, or joins it against you. So with all of the manipulation he somehow ends up being completely trustworthy...
@@chrisbrooks840 yeah, i didn't trust him either. After finishing the game i looked up alternative endings, and turns out that as long as you work with him and go along with his plan without redirecting it in any way, he helps you destroy the Brain. And then he suggests you work together to rebuild his order. But if you reject his offer he doesn't mind, since the big problem he needed you to deal with is over.
i trusted him for several playthroughs and then said fk it and was super rude to him the next one. i did NOT expect him to flip like that, it was genuinely intimidating as hell. him showing you how that he actually mindcontrolled duke stelmane after convincing you for multiple playthroughs that they were partners (and even soulmates) was messed up
@@_holy__ghostThat,'s exactly what happened to me too. Although he never had a happy ending with me 😅 In my first playthough I trusted him, but since I had Lae'zel in my party I couldn't let him consume Orpheus and chose her side in the end. In my second playthrough as the dark urge I *did it* with him and he actually made it to the very end, but then I had to take control for Bhaal and assassinate him. I was actually sad seeing the terror in his eyes as I my character was stabbing him. In my third playtrough I was generally polite towards him but I roleplayed a more sceptical character, who wasn't outright rude to the Emperor but expressed his doubts about him fairly often. Then when he finally snapped and revealed the truth about Duke Stelmane, I was completely shocked and it was the moment when my character started openly opposing him.
This is one of the biggest weak points in the story. It isn’t cohesive. You are only a puppet in the timeline were you push back. If you never push back the game just acts like the emperor is a super special mindflayer with emotions.
I mean, why would it, is self defense some sort of unforgivable act, if my best friend tried to kill me in my sleep I'd try to defend myself too regardless of emotions
Ansur did nothing wrong. The context was he was in he middle of transforming, not afterwards. Ansur was hoping to save his friend's soul at least to let it pass on to the afterlife, instead of it being consumed by the mindflayer tadpole, only to have done so too late. There's also the fact that, rules as written, the easiest way to cure a mindflayer tadpole is to kill the host, surgically removed the tadpole, then cast raise dead. But the Emperor at that point was in charge and wanted the power of being a Mind Flayer. Whether that was Balduran anymore or not is another question.
@@amorencinteroph3428I understood it so, that Balduran already was a mindflayer at that point, but it was during a period when he had gained his control again. So my view is he was uncurable and Ansur was just stubborn and unable to let him go. Regardless, Ansur didn't respect his wish to be a mindflayer (fair game) and thought it was better to kill him. And it was fair game from Emperor to defend himself too. I can't fault him of that.
I'm my current Wyll playthrough, I've basically operated as trusting the Emperor but then once I got to Ansur all bets are off. Taking the Orphic Hammer is the final thing I'm doing before confronting the Brain (I went down into the dungeons at the same time as facing down Gortash).
I like the way they showed the Emperor. Illithids are truly psychopathic. And you can see how he talks about Stellmine, as if he were not sorry that his loved one died. But it’s as if he’s sorry that his puppet died and he can’t influence the city.
I like how for a Dark Urge character we can find out our character was well connected to Duke Stellmane and between Orin and The Emperor we've also lost influence over the city through her death. We have a choice to be just like him or not.
And apparently, if you tease him in dream bit and then turn him down he admits he'd sometimes used his mind control on Stelmine and would have done it to the Mc if they werent valuable independent.
"Balduran" is really the tadpole who grew up to become an illithid, with Balduran's memories. Granted, Balduran left a strong imprint on the illithid, but he's still not Balduran.
I think there's an argument to be made that technically, what are we, what is the "self" other than our conscious mind, and when a tadpole consumes the mind, does it not just transfer the self from one body to another?
@@dev0rangeit's pretty clear the resulting Illithid is not the same personality wise. It may start very influenced by the original personality (assuming it's outside and Elder brain's control) as we see with Karlach but it's personality quickly starts to shift. The conciseness isn't transfered, the new being just had some of the memories and is made out of the old. It's not Baldarun it's the thing that killed him.
@@dev0range No. It's simply copying memories and it may at first mistake itself to be its host, but it is NOT the same person. Jerghal/Withers confirms this.
@@101Mant I'd argue the emperor has retained more of his old self over the long time he has been alive compared to the companion illithids, sure he may favor logic over emotional thinking but who is to say the old balduran wasn't a cold hard logic man, he sure seems to be just as restless as an adventurer would be, and with your conclusion, would the emperor not share the illithid goals of gaining power to enslave the "thralls without a leader" if he was just another illithid? He doesn't want what a normal illithid would want, he wants what balduran would want, so at the end of the day, besides his body and new palate, what is the real difference between the old and the new?
@@Aristocles22 Withers also corrects himself and states that the illithid do have *some* form of soul, be it through recognizing the emperor as balduran (if the emperor did not have a soul withers should not be able to identify who the emperor was. "appearances may change but they do not mask the one within, this one I know") or through tavlithid killing themselves and their souls appearing before withers.
Yeah, like you said, once someone is a mind flayer they stop being themselves. Only the mind flayer with the memories of the person remains. Which is why Withers says they have no souls, and why the Emperor “likes” being a mind flayer because….why wouldnt he?
Yeah the only real potential exception is our avatar since they somehow seem to retain a soul as withers finds them in the afterlife. Although the mental changes that come with being a mindflayer still persist.
Man, this could really go into a long philosophical debate of what makes us ourselves. After all, the bodies atoms are replaced every 5 - 7 years. Meaning that by half a decade, we become a set of completely different atoms. Yet I am still the same person as I was 5 - 7 years ago. Because of this, there are many philosophical theories about what makes us, us. One of them involves memories. So if we were to be taken up that type of position, it could be argued that the mind flare is still that same person by virtue of them still having those memories
@@Venkolm So you don't learn from your mistakes at all? you don't learn new information? You don't care about repeating a task you found unpleasant? yeah I doubt that even if you don't actively reflect on them your memories do impact every choice you make
I've said this before but I believe the Emperor is probably one of the best ways a truly neutral character has been portrayed in DnD media, because his only real goal is self preservation.
Turning on someone you yourself groomed and seen overcome every odd thrown at them while they gather allies and gear up seems like a bad self preservation choice though.
@@Kuroo39 Yeah, that exact moment was what ruined the character for me. Especially that emperor seen everything we did, seen Omeluum living just fine on its own, heard Voss say that orpheus would listen to reason even though he hates flayers and the most important one, that netherbrain played him from the start by releasing him from enslavement. It would make more sense if he completely ran off instead of turning on you.
@@Synthia17 It's not just that, there were a lot of really good ideas from the EA which were simply removed for more broad appeal. Companions were snarky and didn't immediately start sucking you off, especially Shadowheart, and Wyll was actually one of the most interesting characters with actual flaws and a proper heroic arc instead of the bland dude we got now. Same for the dream guardian being changed from Daisy to tadpoled Balduran! (who is supposed to be a long dead historical character in bg1). It's especially sad because the whole theme and motif of the song "Down by the River" refers to her. While I can see mind flayer Balduran making an appearance later in the game, he shouldn't have replaced Daisy. The Emperor change also only makes sense with the Wyll's revised plot with the whole Duke Stelmane murders and his dad and everything, but the whole change felt like a severe downgrade for his character and the plot. Look up early access Wyll and Daisy if you didn't play it during then, I bet you will be surprised by how much was changed. Its easy to see why they did it though, as the average casual player doesn't really like evil characters or companions calling you out (think of Sten from Dragon Age Origins) or actual devastating consequences for things you do instead of tiny minor debuffs or looking very veiny and emo. Getting actual consequences for using stronger tadpole powers (which only unlocked as you kept using them mind you, instead of just gulping down more tadpoles) would have brought in actual roleplay opportunities and the whole choices and consequences dilemma when none of it actually exists currently as there are no real fail states for the plot. The game still has a lot of good ideas but some things just didn't get implemented all too well especially with Act 3. Not only noticeable with the plot but the gameplay as well as the combat arenas don't have much going for them later on, being just flat square rooms or circles instead of the different types of terrain you face early in the game (Very likely due to Act 1 being the only act out in EA lol). While I had a blast with the game, I only point out its flaws because I know it could have been so much better.
I mean after observing the rest of the companions maybe he just thinks this is normal? Do the tadpoles just crank pheromones like crazy, because everyone in camp is down HORRENDOUS.
Insult to injury: End game cinematic. The city of Baldur's Gate survives. A Flaming Fist guard looks at the statue of Balduran - the symbol of the city. Little does he know that his idol is a gay squid now and just tried to make me suck his mantacle.
I wanted my Jaheira know I'm a Durge scene to play out, or Astarion's 'siblings' to come grab him scene... No, I get this mf in all his squid glory. The first time it happened I was so icked out, I would rather do 300 Loviatar scenes over this one.
@@fatterperdurabo42069we could say the same about people saying he is 100% evil. If he was, he would try to control the netherbrain in the end. Instead he destroys it. He is neither good nor bad. If we put alignment on a scale, where 100 is good and -100 is evil, he would be around... -25 I think ? Clearly not good, but not completely evil. He has good and bad. But still a little towards evil, his mentality of reaching his goals at all costs, even if his goals are good, is clearly an evil mindset. edit : Just finished the video and wtf is this ending, I didn't know it was possible. I've never seen him even consider dominating the brain...
@cynaxis4002 He wants to dominate the brain but thinks the PCs will kill him if he tries, so doesn't. He kills Orpheous, the last hope for the Githyanki, and dooms an entire race of people not only because he thinks Orpheous will kill him but also because the Gith uniting and recovering as a society is a threat to his survival. He *wants* Vlaakith in charge, because she's easy to rally allies against. He killed his best friend for trying to help him, and greets his friend's corpse as if nothing had happened. Any time the Emporer isn't 100% evil, it's because it's not in his best interest. He's not evil for evil sake, he doesn't go out of his way to do others harm, but he can and will readily hurt anyone and everyone if he thinks it's best for him. He's neutral evil, which to me puts him closer to -40 to -60 than -25.
Not really a plot hole. More than anything, he wants to live. He sees Orpheus as certain death so he sided with the thing that would let him live as a slave.
The thing about the Emperor is that he values surviving, followed by freedom, followed by power. He doesn't want to enslave the nether brain because it's a threat to his freedom. So the Emperor seeks freedom through killing the nether brain. But if the player breaks their alliance by wanting to free Orpheus, he forgoes freedom in favor of surviving. And he kinda has a point: there is no way that Orpheus would let the Emperor live after he enslaved him and killed his honor guard, not to mention the fact he is fully illithid.
@@that_leaflet I think Orpheus would've let him live if we would've talked some sense into him as the netherbrain is the biggest threat and even if Orpheus would've wanted to kill him he would've tried that after defeating the netherbrain because the netherbrain is the biggest threat of all
@@karandullet380At best Orpheus would let him live until after the netherbrain gets killed but considering the shit he did to orpheus I highly doubt that. Orpheus can barely stomach working with you initially even after you free him pretty sure not explicitly going against the emperor would make him kill you. And even if the Orpheus does wait until after the netherbrain kill the emperor would essentially be public enemy number 2 of the githyanki rebellion behind Vlaakith. They would hunt his ass down.
@appelofdoom8211 you do know Orpheus knows that only an illithid can defeat the netherbrain at this point so if the emperor would've stayed the very point can be used to stay his hand no matter what after the emperor can just simply vanish
I think its fitting that you can't convince the Emperor to try siding with Orpheus. As the book in his lair, you can't try to outsmart a mind flayer. You can't try to work with a mind flayer. You either play their game or try to stay far, far away. If you don't go with the Enperor's plan, he has no use for you
the moment i realised the emperor was truly evil was immediately after talking with raphael in sharess' caress. when raphaels shielding falls away, the emperor attempts to forcefully probe your memories - you can tell him to respect your privacy, and he says he will, _for now._ his language betrays that he truly does view you as pawns. he respects your privacy because it keeps you on his side, but phrases it as though the privacy of your mind is a luxury to be awarded, as though he has free reign over your thoughts. this is the exact kind of language abusive people in my own life have weaponised against me. this single moment made me hate the emperor.
Oh, I always reject Raphael and go do House of Hope anyway. My first clue was when he was so against us entered the Githyanki creche and it solidified to me when he refused to help Minsc but was fine with helping Minthara of all damn people.
I know this comment is 3 months old but SAME BESTIE. I only just played this quest for the first time a day or two ago and I'm still in an emotional turmoil over it. I don't buy the Emperor's version of how their fight went down whatsoever. I 100% think that 'Balduran' killed Ansur in his sleep. I can't stand it. Ansur just wanted to save his friend, truly did give him everything, and the mind flayer puppeteering Balduran's body murdered him.
I was on my 3rd playthrough when I finally told the emperor off and got the Stelmane cutscene. My jaw bounced off my desk. And I had the EXACT reaction, word for word, in response to Ansur calling him Balduran.
When the book mentioned to strenghten our relationships I did not think of Orin and Gortash but my companions (I pretty much wanted Gortash dead the moment Karlach said he sold her to Zariel+his coat deserves to be on someone who can pull it off, and Orin, well lets just say I am not dealing with Bhaal). They no longer talk about the Emperor visiting them in their dream so he clearly clocked the player character as the most useful one so to avoid the same fate as his former associate I needed to strenghten my party's bonds. Thus, instead of lisening to the Emperor and rushing to deafeat the absolute I opted for doing all the companion quests and all the little side activities to strenghten our friendships.
I believe the Emperor is better than people judge him to be. They claim his stance of self-preservation and control are evidence that he's actually evil, but I disagree. People always say this like the majority of humans aren't the same way. Gamers have gotten too accustomed to "heroism" or "a basic good person" meaning unrelenting self-sacrifice, unparalleled virtue, and unwavering drive to commit only good. The Emperor acts like.... a human. Humans are flawed. Especially if that human was once enslaved by a hive mind that would GLADLY enslave him again for the rest of his life if given the opportunity, and stuck inside a device next to a person who swore to eradicate all illithid from the multiverse. He's aware that almost nobody would trust a mind flayer outright, and he's definitely a born politician, so he can't afford to just "be honest" because he's NOT the protagonist. In real situations, when you aren't playing as an omniscient player character that can simply reset the entire universe if a dialogue option goes wrong, being completely honest about who you are can get you killed. To a normal citizen of Faerun (or even worse if the player chose a Gith), if a MIND FLAYER appeared in front of you and told you that he needs you to trust him so he can stop a plot by the Dead Three to control the universe, you would flip out and never trust a thing he said, immediately abandon the artifact, run away, and then getting converted into a True Soul within the day, which would completely ruin the Emperor's plans. The reason his personality can "change" so much depending on how you treat him is because he NEEDS you to accomplish this goal of taking down the Netherbrain, and he will take the best path to achieve that goal. If you cooperate with him, and trust him, he genuinely reciprocates, albeit leaving out details that might make him seem less favorable. Mind Flayers are genetically predisposed towards manipulation; it says as much during the ending where your turn yourself into one. If you treat him like crap, and threaten to walk out of the deal or kill him, he needs to put you back in your place because he can't afford you leaving, and you can't kill him. If you come in looking for beef, he's put in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't situation where he can't talk his way out because you refuse to listen to him, but he also can't just enslave you because then you wouldn't be able to succeed against the brain. So he's forced to double down on being "the bad guy" Mind Flayer. And obviously he doesn't trust Orpheus, because have you MET the Gith? The first time you ever talk to one he basically calls you a cockroach that he doesn't squish merely because the sheer patheticness of your existence amuses him. Gith are VIOLENTLY racist towards any non-Gith, are raised from birth to be militant zealots. It is literally their divine calling to kill mind flayers. Their entire society is built upon the foundation of killing as many mind flayers as physically possible. It would be like asking an a rat to release the king of the cats. The Emperor may value his freedom, but he values his existence more. So when you threaten to release Orpheus, the king of the cats, who he is CONVINCED, for VERY GOOD REASON, would just kill him on the spot, he realizes he has lost his only chance at freedom (the player) and if he sticks around, Orpheus will kill him. So either he sticks around and dies, or goes back to the brain and lives in slavery.
I’m slightly surprised no one is mentioning how Ansur and Balduran’s relationship seemed to have romantic undertones, since Ansur’s mission is one of the biggest reveals related to the emperor. It brings a lot of evidence to the table for mind flayers to truly not be who they were before, seeing that if a lover-turned-mindflayer would be willing to kill their lover to survive, what truly is left of the original person?
@@RidleyUwO no offense dude, but you saying that is so interesting to me. What is the point of responding to my comment, which only assumes that they may have been lovers as a thematic point for the state of mindflayers, with such a mocking tone? Especially in a game that includes LGBTQ+ relationships prominently. I’m sorry that I offended you I guess.
@@ratman6754 I was just poking fun at the idea that there was anything beneath a sense of brotherhood. I see a lot of people interpret two men loving each other as brothers as some kind of romantic relationship, and not even as a fan ship or headcannon. I had to dunk on you for tomfoolery. Don’t take it personally.
@@RidleyUwO the only ‘tomfoolery’ going on here is you being so offended by even the chance of a gay relationship in a game that you felt the need to comment on something that was not even about how the two characters were in a relationship with a mocking comment. Once again, sorry I offended. (Not to mention the fact that you liked your own comment as soon as you posted it lmao)
@@ratman6754 Dude, I literally just did some light dunking because I found it was silly that you believed that Balduran and Ansur had a romantic relationship. No one is offended, I promise you. Also yes I do like my own comments as a big funny haha.
Someone theorized that the The Emperor, who was once Balduran, was no longer who he was once he was transformed in an illithid. The person we interact with now is rather the tadpole who merged with the said individual. One can argue that the its really not Balduran, but the tadpole, that we interact with the whole time. Someone theorized this interpretation and I only can write down what I roughly remember.
Yeah Withers tells ya this, the tadpole just absorbs the memories and kill the body and soul. Illithids are soulless husks of who they once were, with the tadpoles mimicking what they learned from their memories.
@@Eriorguezexactly! I think Omelum tells something similar when interacting with us at the Myconid colony and later at the Society of Brilliance HQ in Baldur's Gate. Also Mystra and Jergal (Withers) confirms the same, and as the video showed, Karlach and Orpheus fate if either of them is the one who becomes a mindflayer for the last mission, both prove at the end that their essence will be gone (consumed by the tadpole that emerged from their body), and so with our Tav if we choose to become the martyr.
I don't know necessarily about that. While the Emperor is probably more cruel and manipulative than Balduran was, Balduran chose to keep with his transformation. He sought the power the tadpole would give him in a full transformation. The Emperor and Balduran are closer to one another than that someone said.
@@legoman7041 What do you mean? Balduran didn't choose to keep his transformation, he was turned into a mind flayer against his will when he came across the illithid colony at Moonrise. Once he transformed, the real Balduran was pretty much gone, and the mind flayer was born. All they have in common is Balduran's memories, since that's just how it works - the mind flayer keeps the host's memories. But his character, his personality completely changed with the transformation, just like every other mind flayer. Karlach is a good example of that too. When you speak to her after she transforms, the happy, bubbly, enthusiastic Karlach we all know is gone, and she becomes this empty shell of a person she once was. Even without the elderbrain controlling her, she still says that she loves being a mind flayer and consuming brains, and wouldn't change this life for anything, something the real Karlach would NEVER say. Orpheus also heavily implied this by asking you to kill him at the end, before the mind flayer instincts take over completely and he can no longer think like himself. TLDR: Balduran and the Emperor are nothing alike. When one transforms into a mind flayer, their past self is pretty much gone, and their mindset, world view and instincts all become that of an illithid, i.e. they think they're the superior beings, they love eating brains, they want others to become illithids, and so on.
A lot of people don't like the Emperor because of how manipulative he is, but I feel like a lot of people don't consider his perspective. His first experience as a freed mindflayer was his own best friend trying to kill him in his sleep, despite the fact that he didn't feel like there was anything wrong with him. He was immediately thrust into a position where he couldn't trust anyone else. His life was stolen from him, not only by the elder brain, but by the people he trusted and the citizens of the city he founded. Everyone judged him as a mindflayer, not as a person. The second he was discovered, he was immediately thrown out and forced back into the service of the elder brain. It was a lose-lose situation no matter what he did. He was never given the opportunity to be his own person because of how everyone immediately judged him. So yeah, he manipulates you. He lies about never lying. He withholds information. But honestly, considering his past experience dealing with other people, he was actually pretty decent to us. He could have threatened to remove our protection, but he didn't. He could have tormented us, mistreated us, forced us to watch our companions transform into mindflayers as a warning to never disobey him. Instead he lets us make our choices even if he doesn't agree with them, fully knowing that he has the power to end us in an instant. As someone who was immediately judged and betrayed by everyone around him, it would have been easy for him to justify being much worse. Instead, he aligns our goals with his to create an outcome where both parties benefit, and only turns traitor if we prove for the final time that nobody will truly accept him. Not even the people whose lives he saved. The only part that really bothers me is that we can't even try to convince him to see reason regarding Orpheus. Even if the DC on the persuasion check was insanely high, I wish it was there. Our party has literally killed the 3 chosen of the gods of death, a powerful devil, and an undead dragon. I don't think it's unreasonable to say "bro, let's just try to talk with this dude. If he's the dick you say he is, I'll just divine smite his ass into submission and let you feast on his grey matter." You could have a check to let the Emperor free Orpheus, then another check to persuade Orpheus to help us. Maybe even an epilogue where after they temporarily join forces to defeat the netherbrain, Orpheus will try to kill the Emperor and we have to pick a side. The Emperor's treatment of Orpheus is the only part of his character that unreasonable beyond the realms of logic. The dude is literally chained up and your telling me we can't ask a few questions before dining on his cerebral cortex? I just want an option to tell the Emperor "Actually, I do trust you. Now you need to trust me and let me talk with Orpheus?"
@@nathanaelwaters2509still, this thing considered Ansur its friend, since it had Balduran's memory, and the first thing that this supposed (by itself) friend does is tries to kill it, and the reason for all it knows is because it didn't look too nice. Something like that happening can strongly damage your believe in friendship and good faith, don't you think? I mean, there can be a lot arguments about tadpole replacing, not integrating the host, about it destroying the host's soul, but the mind flayer, who happened to preserve the host's memories, doesn't know any of it. Thus Emperor's distrust to everyone and everything is still completely valid, imo
@anobstinatecephalopod4605 it what you said was true you Might have a point. But unfortunately it wasn't the first thing he did. Forst he sought far and wide for a cure for cerimorphosos and found nothing. Then the squid pretending to be he best friend told him he was better this way, that he was more powerful and whole. At that point ansur new his friend was dead and he had to put the thing pretending to be him out of his misery
Omeluum is a good plot device for act 1 as well because it shows the player a mind flayer could be good in a setting where they are Inclined to agree And inclined to not act on their disagreement
thank you for this video!!! the emperor is such an interesting character. i will admit i trust them at first, but once i got to spend more time around them (and after the SHOCKING reveal of them actually being a mindflayer) i was seriously questioning the emperor’s intentions and their ways of getting to their goals.
In my first playthrough I had my doubts until Ansur. That's how he treats his "friends". Boneman said it in act I, mindflayers have no souls. Also the squid-flirt was very off-putting.
15:30 You missed a bit of something - If you DID used illithid powers before, refusing this offer will require you to take Wisdom 20 save. Not because he's mind-controlling you. But because that part of you that is already a squid desires this power. It's a neat window in how dangerous the road truly is. How your character is loosing themselves to Power.
The emporer joins the motherbrain if you decide to help orpheus. 5 seconds later you need a mindflayer to control the crown. Why wouodnt the emporer just stick around and help, like he was planning on doing since the start of the game. It literally made no sense that he does that in the orpheus save playthrough
He can't allow himself to be in a subordinate position to a non-illithid. Orpheus would be the boss from there on and he literally would rather be a slave to the elder brain.
Orpheus has spent most of his life as Vlaakith's living battery and the last month or so the Emperor became his warden. As a Gith royal _and_ his victim, Orpheus has _zero_ reason to trust the Emperor to shut the Netherbrain down. And vice-versa, the Emperor has no reason to trust Orpheus not to stab him mid-procedure.
The thing I find interesting about the Ansur vs. Emperor thing, is that it's often treated like the Emperor just sadly betrayed his friend because he's a dick. But like, Ansur was a bronze dragon - they're lawful good metallic dragons that are VERY strongly influenced by their sense of justice and they don't tolerate any form of potential cruelty. Mind Flayers, obviously, are alien beings. They don't think in the same way as a human does - which is the Emperor's point of why someone needs to either become a mind flayer and eat Orpheous' brain, or he'll just do it because he can already handle it. From Balduran's perspective, one that we can assure he still had up to this point given the fact that his #1 priority is to protect Baldur's Gate, he had been given a boost in power - Balduran was already a 20th level adventurer, he's the top brass big boy. His illithid transformation, and more importantly his ability to maintain his personality, was simply a boon. Especially given his proclivity for the intelligence and mental capacity of such an alien mind. In his eyes, he was in control of himself, which is still true through the whole game just like Omeluum is. So long as Mind Flayers are protected from the influence of an Elder Brain, they retain their individuality and are not drawn into the hive mind. That doesn't mean they can't be relentless dicks even outside of an Elder Brain's control, but it doesn't mean they have to be. Ansur, on the other hand, could not be swayed. Creatures of Faerun do not understand Mind Flayers - hell, even the Gods don't, because Mind Flayers' souls don't even register to them. They only register to the Mind Flayer's God. Aberrations are, by nature, unknowable alien beings. So, when Balduran tried to assure Ansur that he was in control, Ansur did not relent - it's in his nature, gifted to him by Bahamut. It's truly a situation of never being able to understand each other's perspectives, and it led to the death of Ansur while Balduran survived. Both of these creatures were put into situations where they were going to inevitably lose a very close friend, and both of these creatures had to fight to keep themselves alive. He definitely didn't want to talk about the Ansur thing because it's a wound that still stings, because the situation just sucks overall. But I see people point it out like it's some grand piece of evidence of the Emperor being a heartless dick, when like, at the end of the game if you work with him he tells you he's just gonna go back to keeping Baldur's Gate safe because he loves his city and he loves his people.
I mean... I definitely see where you're coming from, but The Emperor isn't Balduran. He's the Tadpole that consumed Balduran. Ansur isn't wrong - Balduran is gone and the Emperor is flat-out evil. He enthralled Duke Stelmane (appearing to the rest of the world as her experiencing a stroke) and will attempt to force you to accept becoming a Mind Flayer if you resist him too strongly. Yes, he runs a shadow-organization in Baldur's Gate, but I'm more inclined to believe that it's because he wants to be in a seat of power. If you insist on freeing Orpheus, he decides to side with the Netherbrain - against both you and Baldur's Gate. That isn't the action of someone who loves his city and its people. If you side with the Emperor and bring up taking over the Netherbrain and ruling the world with its power, he says "I admit, the thought crossed my mind... but we'd be painting a large target on our backs from the Githyanki." He has NO ISSUE using the Absolute's power to dominate the universe - he just doesn't want to draw the Githyanki's ire. The Emperor is evil. Ansur was right to try and staunch that evil right away.
Also, he flat-out forces the Astral Tadpole onto you if you've consumed enough normal tadpoles because he "knows you want it." That's... Extremely scummy, to say the least.
@illythriah793 You know what, that's fair - that bit was technically speculation on my part. Given that he asks if you want to do it and you immediately have to roll a wisdom save to say no if you've consumed tadpoles paired with the fact that he later threatens to force your transformation, I interpreted this as the Emperor being the one to force your transformation. However, there is nothing that outright states this, so that may well have been your own tadpole forcing the save. I think there's insufficient evidence to say that it is or isn't the Emperor forcing it, so that bit shouldn't be counted against his character. I stand by everything else I said above, though 😂
I do wish that the dream guardian stuck around for longer in the game. Or at least was featured in more prominent roles before being a mainstay as a mindflayer... Thanks for the comment!
The way they made you make the dream guardian characters works even when you KNOW who they are. Because each one of my playthroughs has me think about who I'm creating and WHY the character I'm playing trusts them. For me, Astarion's Dream Visitor is an unremembered parent. Shadowheart's is her only friend, Nocturn, who she barely remembers. Gale's looks as close to Mystra as I can make her. Who better to manipulate them than faces they know or trust or feel at least fleetingly familiar with?
I had a very different view of the Emperor in my first playthrough which I think is very interesting and would like to share. Basically: i trusted him, and didn’t realize the change in stellmane’s attitude was because of him, so he seemed legit. He didn’t even force me to become half ilithid, so i respected that. Orin kidnapped lae’zel, and she died during the fight, so now the only person who wanted orpheus free was raphael, so i didn’t get the orphic hammer (yes, i ignored raphael. For some reason, he didn’t show up again to offer me the contract in the astral prism). The whole situation with Ansur made me wary, but i gave the emperor the stones and he consumed orpheus. During the fight inside of the brain, i didn’t know that the platforms would collapse, so he died. I killed the brain, and destroyed the crown (i never found gale and chose not to dominate the brain). During everyone’s post credit scenes at the docks, the emperor thanked me for the help and said he’d go back to trying to restart the knights of the shield or something like that, and i never saw him again. So in a series of coincidences, he seemed like an incredibly reasonable and trustworthy companion that worked with me until the end and then went his own way. Things went much differently my first playthrough, but i think it’s interesting that he never even mentioned making a play to control the absolute in my first playthrough even though i worked with him the whole time.
Mind flayers can control the mind and the very first time players create their character they also need to physically define their guardian based on their desires. Which is like the most mind flayer like thing looking into the players mind and shaping themselve into a body the player likes aka guardian YOU create at the start.
The trick of designing our Guardian was effective in that my first character was based on my favourite PnP character from my days playing, and I choose my character 's most trusted friend as his guardian. So I put a lot of faith into him. So while I immediately distrusted him once the reveal happens, I probably gave him more leeway than I would have in just about any other circumstance.
What immediately raised alarm bells for me was how expertly crafted the appearance and mannerisms of the visitor were. When appearing as a protector they are clad in armor. This persists to when they are defending themselves, despite their surrender Gambit, because surrender only matters when the surrendered side is ceding real power. The fact that this is a performance enhanced this; if they were truly attempting to beg clemency they'd appear nonthreatening, but it's not about convincing us not to kill them, we have given plenty of reason to doubt the efficacy of that ploy already, but to maximize the impact of our decision not to kill them. However when appearing before us unasked in the shadowlands they take the skimpy harem slave attire, because they're trying to invite sympathy and disarm us...to get us to unquestionably believe their assertion that they've saved us multiple times. And if/when we go, the apparent *cost* of that to them, the states emotional toll and visible vulnerability, invokes even more gratitude. It's such a clear manipulation that it can't be anything but intentional. It's effective, which just makes it even more of a red flag.
Something that breaks the Emperors house of lies is Omeluum. He is genuinely a friendly mind flayer who is ACTUALLY trying to help you at every turn. Where as, the Emperor deals constantly in half-truths, telling us we can trust him etc etc. "I am a mind flayer lies are my language" are they? Omeluum doesn't seem to lie to us.
11:30 Correctiont: Vlaakith was NEVER referring to the Dream Visitor, but rather Orpheus, as just the knowledge of him even being alive threatened her ENTIRE RULE over the Githyanki people. Even Kithrak Voss believed that the "voice" from the Prism was Orpheus', and that he'd been the one who had "chosen" the protagonists to be his liberators while keeping his identity secret. Of course WE know that wasn't the case, but it goes to show that neither Vlaakith, nor Orpheus' allies (outside the Prism) knew anything about the presence of a Mind Flayer inside the Prism.This means the Emperor's presence was never a determining factor over Vlaakith's labeling of the Prism as "corrupted".
Hearing Ansurs expression of disgust at Baldurans betrayal broke my heart! They seemed like brothers, ansur taking a Dragonborn form and “seeing the world through his eyes” is just such a cool duo. Mindflayers are terrifying
I would like to point out that the emperor only go’s through with becoming the absolute if you push him to it but he will do as promised and destroy it if left to his own devices
23:42 though at this point you don’t actually know whether the Emperor is honest or manipulates the visions to threaten you. The nicest part I saw was when the Elder brain told the Emperor that it manipulated them the whole time - but there isn’t actually proof that the elder brain didn’t just play to the Emperors fears to make the lie stick.
You forgot to mention that it was Ansur who freed the Emperor the the Elder Brain, and did everything in its power to help Balduran, but in the end Balduran killed him. Also its breaks me everytime when the Emperor down plays their relationship.
If Tav chooses to become illithid to stop the elder brain, talking to Minsc in the end party you have to beat a 15 constitution roll or you try and eat his brain.
I agree that it feels weird that you can't even try to convince the emperor to side with while freeing Orpheus but ultimately, I think he wouldn't do it either way. He is all about control and he would rather be set back in his plan (side with the absolute, only hoping he'll eventually be freed again) rather than take a risk he cannot estimate (freeing Orpheus, whomst he could not control even if he wanted to).
The reveal that he was Illithid blew my mind, the reveal as Balduran fucking BLEW MY MIND, and at some point between those two moments he also *blew* my mind
So, I think one thing that was enlightening for me in my perspective of the Emperor was comparing him with what I like to call the "sympathetic vampire" trope. There might be another name for it, but its the idea that a character has some need which requires them to be either anagonistic towards humans, or find it nessisary to feed off of them no matteer how uncomfortable they are with it. I call it by that name because I first saw it in older vampires, which were first being humanized, vampires which hated their affliction but also didn't want to commit suicide(assisted or otherwise) just because of it, yet they must still feed off of humans. You can also see it in other characters which aren't "vampires" persay like Ahri from League of Legends, where much of her tragic backstory is from not being able to control her own need. The Emperor also seems to possess this attitude, even in all his deception, but its his methods which don't typically align with what I have seen of this trope typically, and that is basically a conqueroring of it by dominating the source as a true tyrant. Its like the version of Astarion who becomes the Ascendant, instead of being free, he further entrenches himself into the muck which forced that "need" on him. Using the previously mentioned example with Ahri, she seems to resolve her situation through a sort of solance and acceptance, but also through moderation and trying to find out more about her kind(as she is the last one she knows of), as unlike a vampire(and technically Illithids) she was born who she was, and not changed. So how she deals with it is closer to the Wild Magic player characters, and honestly closer to the WIld Magic Barbarian, in that she controls the "curse" and just lets it all out when its nesssiary, but seeking to become more like a Wild Magic Sorcerer, trying to find the loop holes and learn how her kind truly work. Its like the Emperor is pretending to be this "sympathetic vampire" both to us and to himself to some degree, but in reality its the Illithid impulses which control him.
If you just go with the flow and give him the nether stones and tell him to destroy the nether brain he does, and I think thats pretty telling in itself. In the end, he just leaves and doesn't try to control you anymore, getting the one thing he wanted from the beginning freedom. If you become an illithid he will ask you to join him rebuilding the old gang again. The payer character has the power to sway people to the side of good or bad. The emperor is no different in that regard.
This is a possible ending yes, but I don't think it's too telling since his only justification for not taking control is because of the Gith and the force they pose. He even mentions he had thought about it himself, with no mention of what it would do to us. Thanks for the comment, enjoyed reading your thoughts!
I know why using omeluum as the mindflayer needed isn’t an option in the game, because that would be the easy way out to a happy go lucky ending, same why you can’t persuade empy to spare Orpheus. But if it would be possible it would be the perfect ending. But by that, this perfect game would have its greatest decision removed. Perhaps using omeluum isn’t as bad in this context as empy, but regardless would be anticlimactic. This way you either lose the githyanki hope symbol, and lae’zel, or yourself to the tadpole, karlach to the tadpole, or gale to the orb
"What prevented Vlaakith from noticing your tadpole" She did notice it. She speaks to Lae'zel of seeking purification. That's one reason she wants you dead no matter what you do in the prism.
Do you know why BG3 is such a masterpiece of writing? My story with Emperor was completely different from anything you describe here. I didn't try to kill him and just legged it from Vlaakiths wrath. I showed him some empathy, yet didn't romance him. I didn't sign a contract with Raphael, went to kill him though. Then Karlach became a mind flayer to survive and absorbed Orpheus. I didn't do the quest with Ansur, as it was my very first run and I really wanted to get the golden dice playing blindly, so it wasn't worth the risk. He never called me a puppet. We stopped Orin first and betrayed Gortash later, to destroy the Netherbrain fighting with Emperor arm in arm as allies. Everyone went their own way, but the letter from the good friend Emperor at the reunion party made by Withers was quite heartwarming part of a very bittersweet ending. Complexity of the writing in this game is beyond anything I ever dreamed of in RPGs.
I personally wish we had both the Dream Lover from early access and the Guardian/Emperor. The Dream Lover was I believe to be the tadpole trying to influence the player and become more illithid hence why it pushed you to collect tadpoles. Not knowing who is influencing you at times in your dreams, either the Guardian/Emperor or the Dream Lover would make for an interesting dynamic. 💜 If the Dream Lover also changed its appearance and demeanour from what you created to reflect the traits of whichever companion you are romancing would also been very interesting. ❤ Choosing to side with the Emperor is the best choice since it doesn’t affect any of your characters negatively or the story and I kind of wish it wasn’t so.
I don't trust the Emperor because of something we learn about if we decide to become Illithid ourselves: Once you become a Mind Flayer, the narrator informs you that you now see your companions as pawns to manipulate. You can try to pass a willpower check to ignore this sensation, but the fact that you need to pass checks to avoid becoming an Illithid like the others means you would be having a constant struggle and battle against yourself. Balduran/the Emperor will reveal to you, if you refuse to listen to his bullshit, that he does indeed view you as nothing more than a pawn to serve him. And the fact he destroyed the mind of his 'love', who he was also enthralling and manipulating, and the fact he killed Ansur to remain an Illithid... it's pretty blatantly clear the Emperor can't be trusted. He's just another manipulator, like Vlaakith.
I don’t think I’ve ever hated, purely HATED, a character in a game as much as the Emperor. He’s so emotionally abusive, narcissistic and manipulative and that hit a bit too close to home for me as a person. Which to me, speaks to his quality as a character. His role in the narrative is also amazing given who he is. He’s also likely the Mind Flayer who infected you to begin with. I know a lot of people will have varying interpretations of the Emperor though. Which again, speaks to his quality. Edit: the fact he gives the tadpole when you first find out he’s a mind flayer is kind of the point. Why? Because if you’ve listened to the Dream Guardian and taken Illithid powers, you either have to pass a difficult wisdom check or be forced to transform. He doesn’t respect your autonomy at all, it’s a mask off moment
I'll admit the forcing you to take the astral tadpole's power is a shady moment, but I've always chalked it up to a "Just take your fucking pills it's good for you" moment
Ngl it came off as your tadpoles trying to force you to evolve hence the saving throw since by that point you can have 2-(idk like 12 or something) in your brain
@@MissChambersxo i mean yeah but all im saying is im pretty sure its your tadpole forcing you in that specific moment if you try to say no and fail bc theres no saving throw if you never took more tadpoles and kept yours weak which hypothetically should make you easier to control
I'm sick of peopel pretending the emperor is pure evil or pure good. He's a morally grey illithid and his motivation is self preservation. If anyone else was in his position I doubt we could say we wouldn't do almost exactly what he does
The emperor thought he was manipulating us. He’s the one that put the tadpoles in our heads to begin with. He thought it was his plan to recruit us and use us. But it was all known and allowed to happen by the nether brains design.
you can't convince emperor to let orpheus free because he is sure orpheus will turn hostile against him and he is right. orpheus might be friendly to tav but he would've attacked emperor without a second thought. emperor used his powers for himself and destroyed his honor guard. unlike you, emperor is already a full illithid, and he enjoys being an illithid. orpheus wouldn't let him live. ansur tried to kill emperor first. he had every right to defend himself, would you let lae'zel kill you if you couldn't convince her to drop the knife when you were at the edge of transformation? he appeared as dream guardian because he is the very thing you are trying to avoid to become. he needed your trust to accomplish his plan. he holds his promise and returns to shadows after defeating the netherbrain if you don't encourage him to become absolute. he doesn't enthrall you from the very beginning, he could've done that. he wants you to embrace your potential but never forces you, he respects your free will on this one even if he is right about the tadpoles would give you more strength more than anything to achieve your common goal. he does tell you that you are a puppet but only if you are extremely rude to him. some believes illithids has no feelings but not, illithids experience feelings and frustration and anger are the most common of their feelings. one thing i can't understand is that there is a portrait of stelmane in his hideout. why would he put that there? all we know, he is not a good guy, but not a bad guy too. just a survivor. yes he manipulates us but what would you do in his stead? imagine emperor visiting us in our dreams and say ''hello, i am balduran, i've killed my best friend ansur for my own survival and enslaved stelmane for the same reason. ansur lies dead under the baldur's gate. i hold prince oprheus as my prisoner and use his power to protect mysefl and you, btw vlaakith devours ascended githyankis souls and she is a traitor. i am a mindflayer, i feel nothing and devour brains but only the criminal ones, now would you please consume this tadpole so we can survive?''. this is an alliance, you don't need to be friend with emperor, you just need to honor it and you'll get a good ending. even after that lae'zel can start a rebellion and she'll still like you in case you care about githyanki nations fate that much. on the other hand, orpheus carries her mother's ambitions. to exterminate all the illithids and enslave all humanoids. all istiks are lesser races for them. we know that githzerai are not as evil as githyanki but still, they are evil and racist. our choice is clear: to help a neutral illithid and save an individual or to help a lawful evil prince and free his bloodthirsty people. on a good guy run, i'd choose to help emperor.
Another twist is that it is likely that the Emperor was the mind flayer at the beginning that gave Tav and others their tadpoles. He first stole the prism but then chose to give the prism to Shadowheart and party to defeat the Elder Brain. That contributed to the shock at the end when he realizes that the Elder Brain manipulated him to free him from the crown. The levels of overlapping manipulation in the subplots is a gordian knot.
I turned Karlach into an illithid. Her epilogue dialogue detailing her eating of terminal patients coupled with her newfound somber tone gave way to a theory I have: the types of brains consumed affect the mindflayers personality. Karlach sounds almost depressed (whether his is compared to her normal energy or an intended tone is subject for debate), and consuming the brains of terminal patients/people at the end of their lives would probably do that to someone. Especially with the knowledge that Karlach had that simple living denied of her--twice (Gortash's deal with Zariel and then her sacrifice to save the world). Couple this with the "fact" we're given of the Emperor eating "criminals" and arguably villainous people, it stands to reason he adopted those traits over time. Contrasted to Omeluum, who appears kind in every way (though his diet isn't specified or I missed it in my playthrough). Omeluum is good-natured and helps us when he could easily worry for his own life (Iron Throne), yet he expresses gratitude and pledges allegiance to our cause--something the Emperor never did. The Emperor expected fealty. He didn't simply abandon his good, I firmly believe he drowned it with the "moral decision" of eating violent and evil people. I mean, backstabbing a lifelong friend? Puppeteering an ally? Those things sound like criminal actions, what lowly rogues would do to people who get cold feet on a job or something. Also worth noting: Omeluum has the ring of mind shielding, this too could be a factor in his lack of corruption, shielding him from both the Elder Brain and from losing "his mind" against the menagerie of those he consumes. I still don't know what to make of Withers' comment about mindflayers and souls, especially since he states whoever (Orpheus/Tav/Karlach) still appears to be themselves. Perhaps when shielded from the brain completely/mostly, there's less degradation of the "soul?" I would assume being a thrall for so long also does major damage to the individual's sense of self and their morality along the way, after being made to do countless horrid actions. In the end, I'm aware this is based on DnD and it has a number of references to mindflayers being soulless and whatnot, but the creative direction and lean of certain characters truly does make me wonder. While sad, I prefer to believe Karlach simply mellows out and finds purpose in alleviating the pain of those nearing the end, rather than slowly becoming a monster. Plus, it makes the fall of Balduran more tragic, in my opinion: a man who wants to be good, remain good--he tries to cull the evil, only to wind up becoming what he eats. Murdering friends, using people as pawns--his actions to ensure he remained on "the right path" ultimately make him go astray. There's a bittersweet sentiment to that that I personally enjoy. This is based solely on information within the game. By no means is it guaranteed to be true, but I personally like to think it explains the nature of mindflayers within the game.
Omeluum partnered with a lich for a time. Who comes after liches and mindflayers? Heroic adventurers. My headcanon is that Omeluum inherited some of the values of these adventurers, which eventually led to his falling out with the lich. That being said, it seems to be a gradual process. Depending on how long Omeluum partnered with the lich it could take a long time before his personality has a significant shift, and if he sucessfully replicates the nutrition of brains (which he's actively researching) he might keep his personality for the rest of his life.
I had my suspicions about the Dream Guardian at first, wasn't SUPER shocked he was an illithid. . . . him being Balduran though made my jaw drop to the floor.
The Emperor is all about power. The organization Knights of the Shield, was in earlier editions, quite semi-racist group (human supremacy, especially centered in area). The Emperor isn't a reliable character; personification of ends justify any means. A well-written character, believable snd strong. Maybe he only lies being Balduran, he tricked Ansur, then killed him. Ansur is the guardian of Baldur's Gate - he would have risen against the grand design. Emperor swaps sides if gonagaindt him, because he wants the crown of Karsus for himself. Being crowned Emperor and transform into Elderbrain. He just wants power.
What i find funny, is when the Astarion Crowd Claims the Emporer a toxic Gaslighting Ahole etc. but than romance and praise their ascendend Astarion...."He Loved us, we fixed him" ROFL....
The "Astarion Crowd" as a whole seems to strongly agree that ascended Astarion is the bad end for him, from everything I've seen. That said yeah there are definitely people here and there who completely miss that in his character arc. What can you do, with a big enough audience there's always some people who miss the point entirely.
I have seen literally NO ONE treat ascended Astarion that way. It is pretty much universally agreed that Ascension is his bad ending. They treat SPAWN Astarion that way, because you literally can fix him.
@@LordofFullmetalngl it could be a tiktok crowd but you’d be surprised by how many people actually try to argue that a lot of their ascended versions are good. Most of the justifying goes to ascended Astarion (though I know people who try to say it about DJ Shad and God!Gale) and they’re usually the fans who heavily oversexualize him. It sadly is a big part of Astarion’s fandom but I could also be sealed in an unwanted echo chamber being on Tiktok 💀💀
i just dont get it, the hate on emperor. sure he manipulated us and kept some secrets but at the end of the day he only wants the same thing as tav, freedom and to destroy the netherbrain. bro i swear if he was an handsome elf instead of that tentacle monter everyone would be simping over him and calling him a tragic and complex character or an anti hero, you know it dont deny it. and dont even get me started on how he switches sides, thats just bad writing.
Interestingly the emporer never threatened nor forced me to transform / use the tadpole. He tried to convince me sure but never used threats even through I never used any of the parasites. He even ends up helping me destroy the elder brain ... which in a way is also a plot twist I guess.
The only thing that is missing is your material is what is happening after you ally with Emperor. After defeating the brain he just goes away and it's hard to tell if he has any new goal (I might have missed that as I was focusing more on my party). So, is he true evil really or rather he's convinced that his way is the only solution and uses player, and before the duke as a tool to save the city. Peoiple saying that he was Netherbrain's agent makes little sense since he is literally fighting it. We could probably agree that being ilithid made him genius and ignorant in many aspects but fulfilling his commands ultimately leads to freeing the city. It's really sad that there is no golden balance between saving Orpheus and keeping Emperor as an ally since one of the stories is going to and badly and unfair.
With your final point, I didn;t have to persuade The Emperor of anything when it came time to kill the Nether Brain. I had always took them at their word throughout the game (except when it came to Orpheus, I questioned them then and wanted to persuade them otherise to work together). I found in my playthrough the Emperor a reliable ally and interesting character, and fully expected them to try and betray us in the end. But for me they just... didn't, no persuasion check required.
Honestly if you think about it you would probably lie too if you were the emperor if you know the main characters won’t trust because you are a mind flayer and would constantly question every advice you give
After I found out that the Emperor enthralled Duke Stelmane in my third playthrough (yes, it took me that long) I noticed another detail. Eyes of all the other mindflayers we see in the game are yellow. Eyes of the Emperor are purple. Could it be a sign that we are being charmed/enthralled by him too? Not to such an extend like Duke Stelmane, as we still have our free will after all, but I think some level of mind influence is at play here as well. I didn't pay attention to whether his eyes turn yellow or remain purple during the fight against him atop the Netherbrain.
My favorite thing is when you are playing the game for the third time, know exactly what to tell our companions to make them do what we want, then realize the Emperor is doing the exact same thing with you.
Yeah.....that's a factual thing right there. 😂
Broooo you are so damn right
Narrative parallels? In my rpg?!
Honestly, I think one of the smartest narrative decisions they made with the Emperor was having us interact and learn to trust Omeluum first. It made it much easier to "trust" the Emperor after its initial reveal since we clearly had an example of a mind flayer whose intentions were more morally justifiable.
True! Very good point.
I never meet my homie omeluum in my firts run, so when i see the emperor i trust at firts but then he try to turn me in to a mindflayer and i read that like a friend trying to introduce you into drugs or something like that, so i decide to free orpheos becouse gith deserve freedom and the emperor just decide to run away at firts, most thing that is a plot hole but for me that was the comfirmation that the emperor it wasnt a homie
I only met Omeluun in my second playthrough - but still got to trust the Emperor somewhat (though not completely).
First, damn, you gotta work on your spelling mate@@misaelbot2346
Like many others, I didn't even know Omeluum existed, and I'm a very thorough investigator. Most people just get a cold open with the Emperor reveal.
Emperor: "You know everythinng about me"
Minutes later, discover he is actually the Balduran himself.
his name is john baldur's gate
He's a husk of Balduran, Balduran's dead.
tbf he's no longer Balduran. Probably he was balduran. A mindflayer's just a body with the memory of whoever brain they absorved. And mindflayers can absorb each others too. Who knows how many mindflayers has Balduran's Memory gone through.
@@aidanjanemcintosh6919I never thought about it like that......but that makes quite a bit of sense.
@@joshuaestep1434 when the withers said mindflayers have no soul, we *don't* question it.
13:08 “I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took a tadpole to the eye”
lol. I know this reference from 2010 😅
That's exactly what i thought of too when he said the first part :D
@@Jujudeze22 2012 probably. Skyrim didn't release until late 2011.
@@TheBlarggle lol, my memory was a bit foggy on the exact year but I do remember I was working night shifts so I played a lot of Skyrim on my off nights because it was that or cable tv infomercials at 1 am.
Ha I see what you did there
Withers tells you mindflayers don't have souls. Underappreciated information.
Except our Tav/origin character since Withers can find us in the afterlife if we kill ourselves after killing the big brain. Which even he finds surprising.
Withers specifies that ilithids have souls, but not apostolic souls, meaning ilithid souls are outside what the gods (good and bad) can interact with and gain power from.
It's why he's so angry with the Dead Three. Their little netherbrain plan would rip away thousands of souls at once just at the outset, and then spread on Toril and beyond, weakening the gods tremendously and ushering in a second ilithid empire.
The Dead Three would also be weakened by this, but their attitude seems to be that it is worth making themselves much weaker, just as long as the other gods looses.
@@suntiger745the only creatures with souls in dnd are humans, pseudo humans like (half elves and genasi), dwarves, halflings, and gnomes. Everything else has what are called spirits and basically when they die they are reincarnated after spending a bit of time in their afterlife. It's why in previous editions you couldn't revive elves or monsters. Also no Withers says Mind Flayers do not possess souls. But regardless previous editions lore generally trumps anything added by later source material.
@@notthefbi7015 That isn't how canon works. The Canon is the official version of events, meaning the version of the world reflected in the most recent texts. In terms of canon, regardless of how you feel about it, newer material always trumps older material, as canon is supposed to reflect the current intentions of the writer, not the original intentions of the writer.
@@suntiger745 So im thinking in DnD, there is no clear answer if Illithid comes from the underdark or from the far realms. I think in this game its more the latter that is considered true. The far realm is said to be as something which lies at the end of things in the Phlogiston in the lords of madness book. Gods usually fear / hate the phlogiston because they have no ability to act there, they have no power here, they cant even see into it. It is also said that gods cannot change - fix the crystal spheres separating the planets from the phlogiston. Which implies, it was not created by them but by some sort of gods of gods. If you die in the phlogiston your soul cannot go to heaven or hell as it has no connection anymore (to dumb it down, it floats in deep space), you turn into some sort of a wandering space ghost / monster. So to me, its more like, if you become illithid, your soul just falls outside the sphere you were born into. Gods usually do not like that. To me this could be the only solution for withers being able to bring us to the party. Is that, we still have a soul, its just not in the crystal, but on how Withers could reach out to it, if its not visible to gods, is a big question mark. If we are at the party, we either still have a normal soul or we have a wandering soul in the phlogiston and Withers is some sort of god of gods that is able to see into the phlogiston to bring us back. Which would make no sense. I dunno fam im just thinking, they added to many new ending to this plot tha tmakes it confusing as fuck.
We know the only mindflayer we can trust its our boy omeluum
I like that omeluum existing literally proves every single point the emperor makes about mindflayers wrong
at first i was very skeptical of him in the underdark but iron throne redeemed him badly.
@@sirjoesphjoestar8361redeem? My boy is the goodest boy in all of Faerûn! Since when did he need redeeming??
@@berilsevvalbekret772 I mean, he doesn't sound thrilled at the nature of his diet, obligatory or otherwise, so...
@@shadowldrago Also he has some dialogue together with the other person in the underdark talking about how he is trying to create synthetic brains to feed on.
I've found that the more times I complete the game, the less I trust The Emperor.
Even on my first play through when he said he never lies to me, then when i called him out for all his lies he said "illusion is in the nature of illithids".
Like cmon guy
The fact that he doesn't hesitate to betray you after deciding to free Orpheus just shows his true nature. Then again, I shouldv'e been convinced about it, after knowing that he killed his best friend, just to saved himself.
@@JWalters388That goes both ways though - if you don't free Orpheus and just give him the stones, he does exactly as you agreed. I think this is just the game trying to validate your choices.
It always irks me how he treats Orpheus like a slave and prevents us from speaking with him and insists that Orpheus will definitely kill us.
His treatment of Orpheus was the most suspicious thing that always rubbed me the wrong way.
The moment I hear the Ansar’s account, it was my last straw on trusting the Emperor.
I thought it was out of blue when I saw a brief spoiler but hearing what happened to the Bronze Dragon was enough to let me know that Emperor isn’t what he seems to be.
Illithids can still be good and not egomaniacal. Even though Karlach wants brains, she talks about consuming the brain of the terminal woman who is giving her consent to do so as a way of honoring her memories. And Omeluum, despite appearing to have been a mind flayer for many years, is still selfless, offering to trade you the ring that protects him from elder brains, and encouraging you to focus on saving duke ravengard instead of himself in the iron throne. Good mind flayers exist, the Emperor just isn't one of them.
Good points! I think it could be a factor of what memories and emotional intelligence they take over as a host. Thanks for the comment!
@FiguringOutFantasy Indeed. It's worth noting that Balduran wasn't a very nice guy even when he was alice.
Charismatic, capable and able to emotionally connect to people in a way that the mindflayer isn't, but his pride and ambition also had him act quite a bit like Columbus in the americas when he was in Anchorome.
Is there any books or text that says that? I really wanna read more on that now, I 've only heard positives about the man through bits of lore@@suntiger745
Omeluum lies about the ring though, it doesn't actually do shit. He even admits as much and says he only gave it to you to give you a false sense of protection
@@kahn9980 Did you get this dialogue yourself or hear about from someone else? Because I've never gotten any dialogue like that (and I have the ring and met him in act 3) and can't find anything about it online.
The Emperor's biggest motivation always seems to be self preservation. Every action he takes is geared towards making sure he survives.
Balduran had much of the same attitude in life.
He did care about his friends and crew, but he was a pragmatist.
It's just that when he was human, he would make sure he and his friends survived, even if it meant they lost treasure or boons.
After he becomes an ilithid this virtue is turned into a vice and it only extends to himself.
He does not only seek preservation but also freedom.
@@altairajgar920 Freedom's a motive, for sure. But as we see in the game, he will give up freedom if it means his survival.
I just finished my first playthrough and that is exactly how I felt about the Emperor. I started viewing him as my character's Cazador/ Vlaakith/ Shar. He was the monkey on my character's back- full of false promises so I would serve his interests. I knew my character was going to eventually betray him when I first learned of Orpheus.
It seemed like the older he got, the less human he became. For the good of the realm, it was time for him to die.
The emperor : I will side with the brain for no reason I want to survive
Tav : you’ve been in my head right have you seen my body counts do you think you’ll survive my wrath
Omeluum all the way, the emperor is just too self focused
Yea like if he wanted to survive he could've just by hiding
yea he’s a good example of a
mind flayer who broke away and wants to improve the world. emperor only wants to control things
Omeluum is the reason I let my Tav live as a Mindflayer.
Friendship ended with Emperor.
Now Omeluum is my best friend.
Wish there was option with Omeluum.
Like maybe backup or avoid the “let’s turn into Mindflayer”…maybe argument with Society of Brilliance who relented about sacrificing their top scientist…assuming if Netherbrain got him.
Am I the only one that was like "Yyyyyeah that's 100% a Mindflayer" after the second meeting with the Dream Guardian?
I was totally in the dark myself. Didn’t cross my mind once!
I assumed it during character creation. As soon as I knew I had a tadpole in my head, I knew I couldn't trust a dream person.
Honestly, it was even more obvious to anyone who played the early access. There the Dream Visitor wasn't portrayed as a guardian but rather as your greatest desire. They immediately tried to convince you to embrace the tadpole, and gave you a new Illithid ability as a "gift", as there was no Illithid skill tree in the game yet.
They did a great job rewriting the story to make it a lot less obvious what he really was.
Nope i figured it was either a mindflayer, or just a manifestation of the tadpole seeking control. I vaguely remember Lae Z saying something about not ebing able to trust even your own mind, and then shortly after that here comes this "guardian" saying we should totally embrace the tadpole. No way no how not for my Tiefling Sorc.
It was pretty obvious when it came to the Early Access where the way it was framed was very explicitly "this is your Tadpole showing you what you most desire to get you to it's side and to merge with it".
In respect to the vlaakith bit, idk if vlaakith even knows about the emperor, she wants you to kill orpheus 100%
Yep. Orpheus has been trapped there for centuries. The Emperor gets into the prism sometime between the opening cinematic and Shadowheart getting captured. It's likely Vlaakith doesn't know about him.
I thought so as well and took it as a misinterpretation from the party‘s side UNTIL I replayed the Game. Do you remember the Githyanki group you Had to fight short before you arrive in Emperor's hideout? Before the fight you have a conversation with the female Githyanki. She tells you that she knows about the corrupted inhabitant of the Astral prism, who ist called the Emperor. She called out his Name, so Vlaakith must have known about him because you can ask where they have all the information from: Vlaakith sees and knows everything.
You can tell them that there ist not just the Emperor inside the Prism and he will ask you to stay silent.
But she mentions that they are an agent of the Grand Design. Don't you think she's talking about the dream guardian/the emperor?
@@FiguringOutFantasy It's revealed through a conversation with Lae'zel immediately after the Dream GUardian/Emperor reveal that when Vlaakith sent you into the Astral Prism to 'slay the one who dwells within', she was sending you to kill Orpheus, not the Emperor. For as much as she goes on about how powerful she is, Vlaakith isn't nearly as omniscient as she claims: she didn't know who stole the Prism out from under her nose, nor did she even know that a mind flayer had snuck into the Prism when she wasn't looking and was controlling Orpheus' powers. As for why Vlaakith would send the player to kill Orpheus despite having wanted to using Orpheus' powers for herself, in both Lae'zel's and the Emperor's own words: "A weapon is only useful so long as it isn't pointed toward you. Vlaakith kept Orpheus imprisoned so long as she believed she could one day gain control of his powers, but she would rather kill Orpheus and be rid of those powers altogether than risk the single greatest threat to her reign potentially being freed."
@@FiguringOutFantasyI think the most likely answer is that the best way to convince you, but more Lae’zel tbh, to kill Orpheus is simply to claim that he is “an agent of the Grand Design.” In other words, the force behind the tadpole in your head for the PC, and the thing all Githyanki are sworn to fight against above all else for Lae’zel.
One of the most telling moments of dialogue with the Emperor actually comes from your first interaction with the Dream Guardian, and immediately set me against trusting them.
When you first meet them, the Dream Guardian says, "There is great potential within you. It comes from the tadpole."
This IMMEDIATELY set me on edge, as the Emperor plays his hand so readily in this moment - he lets you know right away that he does not care about your humanity, but rather the illithid power you carry. It's such a blink-and-you-miss-it moment, but after that single line, I completely lost any ability to trust the Emperor.
funny because astarion is the most beloved character, but he literally tries to kill you right when you first meet, AND THEN AGAIN at your first nights rest at camp. but hey, hes a hot pale femboy vampire so he gets a pass.
@shmoga Oh, no - Astarion is 100% a hot mess in Act 1. You're not going to get any argument from me there, haha.
I think the big thing that makes him a likable character for me is his growth as a person. At first, he's just perpetuating the cycle of abuse that he's known his whole life (apart from his 34 mortal years, which is barely a blip at this point). If you're not on the offense, you'll be taken advantage of. That's the lesson he internalized from his abuser. So naturally, until he realizes you're useful to him, he tries to stay in a position of physical power over you. When he joins you, he tries to keep you in line with manipulation. In that way, at least, he's not so different from the Emperor.
The difference is his heel turn in Act 2. Astarion starts to realize he doesn't need to be an abuser and that you're worthy of his trust, to the point that - in Act 3 - you can literally talk him down from the brink of becoming just as bad as Cazador. In the Epilogue, he's done a full 180, having gone from "Gods, saving the Emerald Grove was such a waste of time" to "Sup, I'm vampire Batman now. Get got, criminals."
Similar things can be said about both Shadowheart and Lae'zel.
I didnt trust the guardian first but then after what he said and he saves us from transformation, i trusted him buuuuut then for no fucking reason the guardian is in a sexy outfit, and i was like: heeeelllllll no, you try to hide something so yeah dont trust you, but in the end the emperor is puuuuur neutral.
@@tonyspizza6606 its all fun and games until someone pulls their tentacle out.
Yeah this is what did it for me, though I initially believed from this interaction that the dream Guardian was actually my own tadpole trying to manipulate me.
I think it would've been much more compelling, (and more logical) for the Emperor to dip out of the fight entirely should the player choose to free Orpheus, rather than join up with the Elder Brain. For him to leave us with an ominous threat, only to be mentioned in rumors or whispers in the epilogue, would've been much more impactful, both in the game and in the lore of Faerun as a whole.
Was also bummed that Omeluum couldn't fulfill the role of our Illithid ally, instead of trusting the Emperor or turning someone else. Would've been a nice reward for the players who did the extra work of venturing to the Underdark and breaking into the prison.
I finally beat the game. It would have been nice if WOTC didn’t make Larian want to move on from the game so fast. Think they might have wanted to weave in those types of ending options. I didn’t bump into Omeuluum until my dark urge play through. He’s already a great option for tree branching more endings.
Sincerely late for this reply, but if I recall, the Emperor doesn't have a choice. Once he leaves the safety of Orpheus's influence/power (as Orpheus is the one who protects anyone from the elder brain's influence), his mind becomes seized by the elder brain, and he's pulled back into her control.
A friend of mine, on our first playthrough, "accidentally" slept with the Emperor. When we found out the twist, I shouted at him “OH! You really _did_ enter Baldur's Gate!”
The thing that i find most fascinating about the Emperor is that he lies and manipulates you throughout the entire game, and you find out just how much he sees you as a puppet only if you push back against him. But ultimately if you choose to trust him he does exactly what he always says he's going to do and destroys the Netherbrain. Only if you choose to interfere does he take control over it, or joins it against you.
So with all of the manipulation he somehow ends up being completely trustworthy...
I never saw that ending. I just couldn't ever trust him in any playthrough.
@@chrisbrooks840 yeah, i didn't trust him either. After finishing the game i looked up alternative endings, and turns out that as long as you work with him and go along with his plan without redirecting it in any way, he helps you destroy the Brain. And then he suggests you work together to rebuild his order. But if you reject his offer he doesn't mind, since the big problem he needed you to deal with is over.
i trusted him for several playthroughs and then said fk it and was super rude to him the next one. i did NOT expect him to flip like that, it was genuinely intimidating as hell. him showing you how that he actually mindcontrolled duke stelmane after convincing you for multiple playthroughs that they were partners (and even soulmates) was messed up
@@_holy__ghostThat,'s exactly what happened to me too. Although he never had a happy ending with me 😅 In my first playthough I trusted him, but since I had Lae'zel in my party I couldn't let him consume Orpheus and chose her side in the end. In my second playthrough as the dark urge I *did it* with him and he actually made it to the very end, but then I had to take control for Bhaal and assassinate him. I was actually sad seeing the terror in his eyes as I my character was stabbing him. In my third playtrough I was generally polite towards him but I roleplayed a more sceptical character, who wasn't outright rude to the Emperor but expressed his doubts about him fairly often. Then when he finally snapped and revealed the truth about Duke Stelmane, I was completely shocked and it was the moment when my character started openly opposing him.
This is one of the biggest weak points in the story. It isn’t cohesive. You are only a puppet in the timeline were you push back. If you never push back the game just acts like the emperor is a super special mindflayer with emotions.
Ansur's fate and having to battle him broke my heart. It was the moment where I severed all ties to the Emperor.
I mean, Ansur was trying to kill it. What was it gonna do? Die like a good squid?
I mean, why would it, is self defense some sort of unforgivable act, if my best friend tried to kill me in my sleep I'd try to defend myself too regardless of emotions
Ansur did nothing wrong. The context was he was in he middle of transforming, not afterwards. Ansur was hoping to save his friend's soul at least to let it pass on to the afterlife, instead of it being consumed by the mindflayer tadpole, only to have done so too late. There's also the fact that, rules as written, the easiest way to cure a mindflayer tadpole is to kill the host, surgically removed the tadpole, then cast raise dead.
But the Emperor at that point was in charge and wanted the power of being a Mind Flayer. Whether that was Balduran anymore or not is another question.
@@amorencinteroph3428I understood it so, that Balduran already was a mindflayer at that point, but it was during a period when he had gained his control again. So my view is he was uncurable and Ansur was just stubborn and unable to let him go. Regardless, Ansur didn't respect his wish to be a mindflayer (fair game) and thought it was better to kill him. And it was fair game from Emperor to defend himself too. I can't fault him of that.
I'm my current Wyll playthrough, I've basically operated as trusting the Emperor but then once I got to Ansur all bets are off. Taking the Orphic Hammer is the final thing I'm doing before confronting the Brain (I went down into the dungeons at the same time as facing down Gortash).
I like the way they showed the Emperor. Illithids are truly psychopathic. And you can see how he talks about Stellmine, as if he were not sorry that his loved one died. But it’s as if he’s sorry that his puppet died and he can’t influence the city.
I like how for a Dark Urge character we can find out our character was well connected to Duke Stellmane and between Orin and The Emperor we've also lost influence over the city through her death. We have a choice to be just like him or not.
And apparently, if you tease him in dream bit and then turn him down he admits he'd sometimes used his mind control on Stelmine and would have done it to the Mc if they werent valuable independent.
"Balduran" is really the tadpole who grew up to become an illithid, with Balduran's memories. Granted, Balduran left a strong imprint on the illithid, but he's still not Balduran.
I think there's an argument to be made that technically, what are we, what is the "self" other than our conscious mind, and when a tadpole consumes the mind, does it not just transfer the self from one body to another?
@@dev0rangeit's pretty clear the resulting Illithid is not the same personality wise. It may start very influenced by the original personality (assuming it's outside and Elder brain's control) as we see with Karlach but it's personality quickly starts to shift. The conciseness isn't transfered, the new being just had some of the memories and is made out of the old.
It's not Baldarun it's the thing that killed him.
@@dev0range No. It's simply copying memories and it may at first mistake itself to be its host, but it is NOT the same person. Jerghal/Withers confirms this.
@@101Mant I'd argue the emperor has retained more of his old self over the long time he has been alive compared to the companion illithids, sure he may favor logic over emotional thinking but who is to say the old balduran wasn't a cold hard logic man, he sure seems to be just as restless as an adventurer would be, and with your conclusion, would the emperor not share the illithid goals of gaining power to enslave the "thralls without a leader" if he was just another illithid? He doesn't want what a normal illithid would want, he wants what balduran would want, so at the end of the day, besides his body and new palate, what is the real difference between the old and the new?
@@Aristocles22 Withers also corrects himself and states that the illithid do have *some* form of soul, be it through recognizing the emperor as balduran (if the emperor did not have a soul withers should not be able to identify who the emperor was. "appearances may change but they do not mask the one within, this one I know") or through tavlithid killing themselves and their souls appearing before withers.
Yeah, like you said, once someone is a mind flayer they stop being themselves. Only the mind flayer with the memories of the person remains. Which is why Withers says they have no souls, and why the Emperor “likes” being a mind flayer because….why wouldnt he?
Yeah the only real potential exception is our avatar since they somehow seem to retain a soul as withers finds them in the afterlife. Although the mental changes that come with being a mindflayer still persist.
Man, this could really go into a long philosophical debate of what makes us ourselves. After all, the bodies atoms are replaced every 5 - 7 years. Meaning that by half a decade, we become a set of completely different atoms. Yet I am still the same person as I was 5 - 7 years ago. Because of this, there are many philosophical theories about what makes us, us. One of them involves memories. So if we were to be taken up that type of position, it could be argued that the mind flare is still that same person by virtue of them still having those memories
@@loganredding1621No
@loganredding1621
I don't think I make choices, based on memories ,lol. I doubt anyone does. So, no
@@Venkolm So you don't learn from your mistakes at all? you don't learn new information? You don't care about repeating a task you found unpleasant?
yeah I doubt that even if you don't actively reflect on them your memories do impact every choice you make
I've said this before but I believe the Emperor is probably one of the best ways a truly neutral character has been portrayed in DnD media, because his only real goal is self preservation.
Turning on someone you yourself groomed and seen overcome every odd thrown at them while they gather allies and gear up seems like a bad self preservation choice though.
@@Synthia17 That's the fault of the writing being bad, ideally you should be able to free orpheus and keep the emperor at the same time
@@Kuroo39 Yeah, that exact moment was what ruined the character for me. Especially that emperor seen everything we did, seen Omeluum living just fine on its own, heard Voss say that orpheus would listen to reason even though he hates flayers and the most important one, that netherbrain played him from the start by releasing him from enslavement. It would make more sense if he completely ran off instead of turning on you.
@@Synthia17 It's not just that, there were a lot of really good ideas from the EA which were simply removed for more broad appeal. Companions were snarky and didn't immediately start sucking you off, especially Shadowheart, and Wyll was actually one of the most interesting characters with actual flaws and a proper heroic arc instead of the bland dude we got now.
Same for the dream guardian being changed from Daisy to tadpoled Balduran! (who is supposed to be a long dead historical character in bg1). It's especially sad because the whole theme and motif of the song "Down by the River" refers to her. While I can see mind flayer Balduran making an appearance later in the game, he shouldn't have replaced Daisy. The Emperor change also only makes sense with the Wyll's revised plot with the whole Duke Stelmane murders and his dad and everything, but the whole change felt like a severe downgrade for his character and the plot.
Look up early access Wyll and Daisy if you didn't play it during then, I bet you will be surprised by how much was changed. Its easy to see why they did it though, as the average casual player doesn't really like evil characters or companions calling you out (think of Sten from Dragon Age Origins) or actual devastating consequences for things you do instead of tiny minor debuffs or looking very veiny and emo.
Getting actual consequences for using stronger tadpole powers (which only unlocked as you kept using them mind you, instead of just gulping down more tadpoles) would have brought in actual roleplay opportunities and the whole choices and consequences dilemma when none of it actually exists currently as there are no real fail states for the plot. The game still has a lot of good ideas but some things just didn't get implemented all too well especially with Act 3. Not only noticeable with the plot but the gameplay as well as the combat arenas don't have much going for them later on, being just flat square rooms or circles instead of the different types of terrain you face early in the game (Very likely due to Act 1 being the only act out in EA lol). While I had a blast with the game, I only point out its flaws because I know it could have been so much better.
didn't realize I typed a whole ass essay lol
I was so dead when he pulls you into that dream world and he’s shirtless. I was like BRO BE FOREAL RN 😂
I mean after observing the rest of the companions maybe he just thinks this is normal?
Do the tadpoles just crank pheromones like crazy, because everyone in camp is down HORRENDOUS.
Insult to injury:
End game cinematic. The city of Baldur's Gate survives. A Flaming Fist guard looks at the statue of Balduran - the symbol of the city.
Little does he know that his idol is a gay squid now and just tried to make me suck his mantacle.
I wanted my Jaheira know I'm a Durge scene to play out, or Astarion's 'siblings' to come grab him scene... No, I get this mf in all his squid glory. The first time it happened I was so icked out, I would rather do 300 Loviatar scenes over this one.
You know a villain like him is well made, when people still debate whether he is a villain or not.
That is slander good sir. He is no villain. Just a Mindflayer trying to do his best.
It makes me very afraid that Emperor simps can vote and drive
@@fatterperdurabo42069we could say the same about people saying he is 100% evil. If he was, he would try to control the netherbrain in the end. Instead he destroys it. He is neither good nor bad. If we put alignment on a scale, where 100 is good and -100 is evil, he would be around... -25 I think ?
Clearly not good, but not completely evil. He has good and bad. But still a little towards evil, his mentality of reaching his goals at all costs, even if his goals are good, is clearly an evil mindset.
edit : Just finished the video and wtf is this ending, I didn't know it was possible. I've never seen him even consider dominating the brain...
He's selfish and manipulative for sure, but with his goal he's just more of a potential ally in the game. Just in the game, at least.
@cynaxis4002 He wants to dominate the brain but thinks the PCs will kill him if he tries, so doesn't.
He kills Orpheous, the last hope for the Githyanki, and dooms an entire race of people not only because he thinks Orpheous will kill him but also because the Gith uniting and recovering as a society is a threat to his survival. He *wants* Vlaakith in charge, because she's easy to rally allies against.
He killed his best friend for trying to help him, and greets his friend's corpse as if nothing had happened.
Any time the Emporer isn't 100% evil, it's because it's not in his best interest. He's not evil for evil sake, he doesn't go out of his way to do others harm, but he can and will readily hurt anyone and everyone if he thinks it's best for him. He's neutral evil, which to me puts him closer to -40 to -60 than -25.
I burst out laughing when I freed Orpheus and the emperor just dipped to ally with the netherbrain. Easily the weirdest plot hole in the game
Not really a plot hole. More than anything, he wants to live. He sees Orpheus as certain death so he sided with the thing that would let him live as a slave.
The thing about the Emperor is that he values surviving, followed by freedom, followed by power. He doesn't want to enslave the nether brain because it's a threat to his freedom. So the Emperor seeks freedom through killing the nether brain. But if the player breaks their alliance by wanting to free Orpheus, he forgoes freedom in favor of surviving. And he kinda has a point: there is no way that Orpheus would let the Emperor live after he enslaved him and killed his honor guard, not to mention the fact he is fully illithid.
@@that_leaflet I think Orpheus would've let him live if we would've talked some sense into him as the netherbrain is the biggest threat and even if Orpheus would've wanted to kill him he would've tried that after defeating the netherbrain because the netherbrain is the biggest threat of all
@@karandullet380At best Orpheus would let him live until after the netherbrain gets killed but considering the shit he did to orpheus I highly doubt that. Orpheus can barely stomach working with you initially even after you free him pretty sure not explicitly going against the emperor would make him kill you.
And even if the Orpheus does wait until after the netherbrain kill the emperor would essentially be public enemy number 2 of the githyanki rebellion behind Vlaakith. They would hunt his ass down.
@appelofdoom8211 you do know Orpheus knows that only an illithid can defeat the netherbrain at this point so if the emperor would've stayed the very point can be used to stay his hand no matter what after the emperor can just simply vanish
I think its fitting that you can't convince the Emperor to try siding with Orpheus. As the book in his lair, you can't try to outsmart a mind flayer. You can't try to work with a mind flayer. You either play their game or try to stay far, far away. If you don't go with the Enperor's plan, he has no use for you
There's no need for cooperation.
How about "just don't kill each other for the last 2 hours of the game" temporary non-aggression?
so basically the usual phrase of "Die as a hero or live long enough to become a villain"
the moment i realised the emperor was truly evil was immediately after talking with raphael in sharess' caress. when raphaels shielding falls away, the emperor attempts to forcefully probe your memories - you can tell him to respect your privacy, and he says he will, _for now._ his language betrays that he truly does view you as pawns. he respects your privacy because it keeps you on his side, but phrases it as though the privacy of your mind is a luxury to be awarded, as though he has free reign over your thoughts. this is the exact kind of language abusive people in my own life have weaponised against me. this single moment made me hate the emperor.
Damn....hope you got out of that slimey tentacleish situation..😢
This. The emperor screamed manipulative abuser to me. The fact, that so many people can't see through this worries me.
Oh, I always reject Raphael and go do House of Hope anyway. My first clue was when he was so against us entered the Githyanki creche and it solidified to me when he refused to help Minsc but was fine with helping Minthara of all damn people.
I literally ugly cried for like half an hour after the Ansur reveal. It fucked my mind up so bad.
I know this comment is 3 months old but SAME BESTIE. I only just played this quest for the first time a day or two ago and I'm still in an emotional turmoil over it. I don't buy the Emperor's version of how their fight went down whatsoever. I 100% think that 'Balduran' killed Ansur in his sleep. I can't stand it. Ansur just wanted to save his friend, truly did give him everything, and the mind flayer puppeteering Balduran's body murdered him.
I feel so bad for Ansur and we know that the emperor is an unreliable narrator too
I was on my 3rd playthrough when I finally told the emperor off and got the Stelmane cutscene. My jaw bounced off my desk. And I had the EXACT reaction, word for word, in response to Ansur calling him Balduran.
When the book mentioned to strenghten our relationships I did not think of Orin and Gortash but my companions (I pretty much wanted Gortash dead the moment Karlach said he sold her to Zariel+his coat deserves to be on someone who can pull it off, and Orin, well lets just say I am not dealing with Bhaal). They no longer talk about the Emperor visiting them in their dream so he clearly clocked the player character as the most useful one so to avoid the same fate as his former associate I needed to strenghten my party's bonds. Thus, instead of lisening to the Emperor and rushing to deafeat the absolute I opted for doing all the companion quests and all the little side activities to strenghten our friendships.
I believe the Emperor is better than people judge him to be. They claim his stance of self-preservation and control are evidence that he's actually evil, but I disagree.
People always say this like the majority of humans aren't the same way. Gamers have gotten too accustomed to "heroism" or "a basic good person" meaning unrelenting self-sacrifice, unparalleled virtue, and unwavering drive to commit only good. The Emperor acts like.... a human. Humans are flawed. Especially if that human was once enslaved by a hive mind that would GLADLY enslave him again for the rest of his life if given the opportunity, and stuck inside a device next to a person who swore to eradicate all illithid from the multiverse. He's aware that almost nobody would trust a mind flayer outright, and he's definitely a born politician, so he can't afford to just "be honest" because he's NOT the protagonist. In real situations, when you aren't playing as an omniscient player character that can simply reset the entire universe if a dialogue option goes wrong, being completely honest about who you are can get you killed. To a normal citizen of Faerun (or even worse if the player chose a Gith), if a MIND FLAYER appeared in front of you and told you that he needs you to trust him so he can stop a plot by the Dead Three to control the universe, you would flip out and never trust a thing he said, immediately abandon the artifact, run away, and then getting converted into a True Soul within the day, which would completely ruin the Emperor's plans.
The reason his personality can "change" so much depending on how you treat him is because he NEEDS you to accomplish this goal of taking down the Netherbrain, and he will take the best path to achieve that goal. If you cooperate with him, and trust him, he genuinely reciprocates, albeit leaving out details that might make him seem less favorable. Mind Flayers are genetically predisposed towards manipulation; it says as much during the ending where your turn yourself into one. If you treat him like crap, and threaten to walk out of the deal or kill him, he needs to put you back in your place because he can't afford you leaving, and you can't kill him. If you come in looking for beef, he's put in a damned if he does, damned if he doesn't situation where he can't talk his way out because you refuse to listen to him, but he also can't just enslave you because then you wouldn't be able to succeed against the brain. So he's forced to double down on being "the bad guy" Mind Flayer.
And obviously he doesn't trust Orpheus, because have you MET the Gith? The first time you ever talk to one he basically calls you a cockroach that he doesn't squish merely because the sheer patheticness of your existence amuses him. Gith are VIOLENTLY racist towards any non-Gith, are raised from birth to be militant zealots. It is literally their divine calling to kill mind flayers. Their entire society is built upon the foundation of killing as many mind flayers as physically possible. It would be like asking an a rat to release the king of the cats. The Emperor may value his freedom, but he values his existence more. So when you threaten to release Orpheus, the king of the cats, who he is CONVINCED, for VERY GOOD REASON, would just kill him on the spot, he realizes he has lost his only chance at freedom (the player) and if he sticks around, Orpheus will kill him. So either he sticks around and dies, or goes back to the brain and lives in slavery.
People often forget that the gith are lawful evil, lol.
I’m slightly surprised no one is mentioning how Ansur and Balduran’s relationship seemed to have romantic undertones, since Ansur’s mission is one of the biggest reveals related to the emperor. It brings a lot of evidence to the table for mind flayers to truly not be who they were before, seeing that if a lover-turned-mindflayer would be willing to kill their lover to survive, what truly is left of the original person?
A friendship of two men born of countless adventures and a sense of brotherhood: *exists*
People: “Could this be a gay relationship? 🤔😱”
@@RidleyUwO no offense dude, but you saying that is so interesting to me. What is the point of responding to my comment, which only assumes that they may have been lovers as a thematic point for the state of mindflayers, with such a mocking tone? Especially in a game that includes LGBTQ+ relationships prominently. I’m sorry that I offended you I guess.
@@ratman6754 I was just poking fun at the idea that there was anything beneath a sense of brotherhood. I see a lot of people interpret two men loving each other as brothers as some kind of romantic relationship, and not even as a fan ship or headcannon. I had to dunk on you for tomfoolery. Don’t take it personally.
@@RidleyUwO the only ‘tomfoolery’ going on here is you being so offended by even the chance of a gay relationship in a game that you felt the need to comment on something that was not even about how the two characters were in a relationship with a mocking comment. Once again, sorry I offended. (Not to mention the fact that you liked your own comment as soon as you posted it lmao)
@@ratman6754 Dude, I literally just did some light dunking because I found it was silly that you believed that Balduran and Ansur had a romantic relationship. No one is offended, I promise you. Also yes I do like my own comments as a big funny haha.
The reason he dips is because he loses his self-control and the absolute pulls him right away
My thoughts and interpretation, too. Idk why most people seem to think it's a plot hole. 🤷🏻♀️
Someone theorized that the The Emperor, who was once Balduran, was no longer who he was once he was transformed in an illithid. The person we interact with now is rather the tadpole who merged with the said individual. One can argue that the its really not Balduran, but the tadpole, that we interact with the whole time.
Someone theorized this interpretation and I only can write down what I roughly remember.
Yeah Withers tells ya this, the tadpole just absorbs the memories and kill the body and soul. Illithids are soulless husks of who they once were, with the tadpoles mimicking what they learned from their memories.
That's less of a theory and more how Mind Flayers work.
@@Eriorguezexactly! I think Omelum tells something similar when interacting with us at the Myconid colony and later at the Society of Brilliance HQ in Baldur's Gate. Also Mystra and Jergal (Withers) confirms the same, and as the video showed, Karlach and Orpheus fate if either of them is the one who becomes a mindflayer for the last mission, both prove at the end that their essence will be gone (consumed by the tadpole that emerged from their body), and so with our Tav if we choose to become the martyr.
I don't know necessarily about that. While the Emperor is probably more cruel and manipulative than Balduran was, Balduran chose to keep with his transformation. He sought the power the tadpole would give him in a full transformation. The Emperor and Balduran are closer to one another than that someone said.
@@legoman7041 What do you mean? Balduran didn't choose to keep his transformation, he was turned into a mind flayer against his will when he came across the illithid colony at Moonrise. Once he transformed, the real Balduran was pretty much gone, and the mind flayer was born. All they have in common is Balduran's memories, since that's just how it works - the mind flayer keeps the host's memories. But his character, his personality completely changed with the transformation, just like every other mind flayer. Karlach is a good example of that too. When you speak to her after she transforms, the happy, bubbly, enthusiastic Karlach we all know is gone, and she becomes this empty shell of a person she once was. Even without the elderbrain controlling her, she still says that she loves being a mind flayer and consuming brains, and wouldn't change this life for anything, something the real Karlach would NEVER say. Orpheus also heavily implied this by asking you to kill him at the end, before the mind flayer instincts take over completely and he can no longer think like himself.
TLDR: Balduran and the Emperor are nothing alike. When one transforms into a mind flayer, their past self is pretty much gone, and their mindset, world view and instincts all become that of an illithid, i.e. they think they're the superior beings, they love eating brains, they want others to become illithids, and so on.
A lot of people don't like the Emperor because of how manipulative he is, but I feel like a lot of people don't consider his perspective. His first experience as a freed mindflayer was his own best friend trying to kill him in his sleep, despite the fact that he didn't feel like there was anything wrong with him. He was immediately thrust into a position where he couldn't trust anyone else. His life was stolen from him, not only by the elder brain, but by the people he trusted and the citizens of the city he founded. Everyone judged him as a mindflayer, not as a person. The second he was discovered, he was immediately thrown out and forced back into the service of the elder brain. It was a lose-lose situation no matter what he did. He was never given the opportunity to be his own person because of how everyone immediately judged him.
So yeah, he manipulates you. He lies about never lying. He withholds information. But honestly, considering his past experience dealing with other people, he was actually pretty decent to us. He could have threatened to remove our protection, but he didn't. He could have tormented us, mistreated us, forced us to watch our companions transform into mindflayers as a warning to never disobey him. Instead he lets us make our choices even if he doesn't agree with them, fully knowing that he has the power to end us in an instant. As someone who was immediately judged and betrayed by everyone around him, it would have been easy for him to justify being much worse. Instead, he aligns our goals with his to create an outcome where both parties benefit, and only turns traitor if we prove for the final time that nobody will truly accept him. Not even the people whose lives he saved.
The only part that really bothers me is that we can't even try to convince him to see reason regarding Orpheus. Even if the DC on the persuasion check was insanely high, I wish it was there. Our party has literally killed the 3 chosen of the gods of death, a powerful devil, and an undead dragon. I don't think it's unreasonable to say "bro, let's just try to talk with this dude. If he's the dick you say he is, I'll just divine smite his ass into submission and let you feast on his grey matter." You could have a check to let the Emperor free Orpheus, then another check to persuade Orpheus to help us. Maybe even an epilogue where after they temporarily join forces to defeat the netherbrain, Orpheus will try to kill the Emperor and we have to pick a side. The Emperor's treatment of Orpheus is the only part of his character that unreasonable beyond the realms of logic. The dude is literally chained up and your telling me we can't ask a few questions before dining on his cerebral cortex? I just want an option to tell the Emperor "Actually, I do trust you. Now you need to trust me and let me talk with Orpheus?"
Wow! Thank you for the thoughtful comment!
Well said, I agree with all of those points. The Emperor is certainly a morally questionable character, but for (ironically) very human reasons.
All i can say without writing a huge comment is that ansur didnt try and kill his best friend, he tried to kill the thing that took his life and body
@@nathanaelwaters2509still, this thing considered Ansur its friend, since it had Balduran's memory, and the first thing that this supposed (by itself) friend does is tries to kill it, and the reason for all it knows is because it didn't look too nice. Something like that happening can strongly damage your believe in friendship and good faith, don't you think?
I mean, there can be a lot arguments about tadpole replacing, not integrating the host, about it destroying the host's soul, but the mind flayer, who happened to preserve the host's memories, doesn't know any of it. Thus Emperor's distrust to everyone and everything is still completely valid, imo
@anobstinatecephalopod4605 it what you said was true you Might have a point. But unfortunately it wasn't the first thing he did. Forst he sought far and wide for a cure for cerimorphosos and found nothing. Then the squid pretending to be he best friend told him he was better this way, that he was more powerful and whole. At that point ansur new his friend was dead and he had to put the thing pretending to be him out of his misery
Omeluum is a good plot device for act 1 as well because it shows the player a mind flayer could be good in a setting where they are
Inclined to agree
And inclined to not act on their disagreement
Omeluum is just a lefover of tadpole being an actual threat with game mechanics related to it.
thank you for this video!!! the emperor is such an interesting character. i will admit i trust them at first, but once i got to spend more time around them (and after the SHOCKING reveal of them actually being a mindflayer) i was seriously questioning the emperor’s intentions and their ways of getting to their goals.
Thank YOU for watching!
In my first playthrough I had my doubts until Ansur. That's how he treats his "friends". Boneman said it in act I, mindflayers have no souls. Also the squid-flirt was very off-putting.
15:30
You missed a bit of something - If you DID used illithid powers before, refusing this offer will require you to take Wisdom 20 save.
Not because he's mind-controlling you. But because that part of you that is already a squid desires this power.
It's a neat window in how dangerous the road truly is. How your character is loosing themselves to Power.
I wouldnt call baldur a narrative masterpiece he tried to fuck me in squid form
such is the fate of any rpg where the entire cast is pan/playersexual
@christopherjones5700 playersexual is good im stealing that one cheers!
-50 points, agreed.
@@christopherjones5700 Playersexual is such a perfect term for this! I'm stealing it 🙂
Gotta protect your kitchen pans while playing this game I tell ya. @@christopherjones5700
The emporer joins the motherbrain if you decide to help orpheus. 5 seconds later you need a mindflayer to control the crown. Why wouodnt the emporer just stick around and help, like he was planning on doing since the start of the game. It literally made no sense that he does that in the orpheus save playthrough
He can't allow himself to be in a subordinate position to a non-illithid. Orpheus would be the boss from there on and he literally would rather be a slave to the elder brain.
Orpheus has spent most of his life as Vlaakith's living battery and the last month or so the Emperor became his warden.
As a Gith royal _and_ his victim, Orpheus has _zero_ reason to trust the Emperor to shut the Netherbrain down.
And vice-versa, the Emperor has no reason to trust Orpheus not to stab him mid-procedure.
The thing I find interesting about the Ansur vs. Emperor thing, is that it's often treated like the Emperor just sadly betrayed his friend because he's a dick.
But like, Ansur was a bronze dragon - they're lawful good metallic dragons that are VERY strongly influenced by their sense of justice and they don't tolerate any form of potential cruelty. Mind Flayers, obviously, are alien beings. They don't think in the same way as a human does - which is the Emperor's point of why someone needs to either become a mind flayer and eat Orpheous' brain, or he'll just do it because he can already handle it.
From Balduran's perspective, one that we can assure he still had up to this point given the fact that his #1 priority is to protect Baldur's Gate, he had been given a boost in power - Balduran was already a 20th level adventurer, he's the top brass big boy. His illithid transformation, and more importantly his ability to maintain his personality, was simply a boon. Especially given his proclivity for the intelligence and mental capacity of such an alien mind. In his eyes, he was in control of himself, which is still true through the whole game just like Omeluum is. So long as Mind Flayers are protected from the influence of an Elder Brain, they retain their individuality and are not drawn into the hive mind. That doesn't mean they can't be relentless dicks even outside of an Elder Brain's control, but it doesn't mean they have to be.
Ansur, on the other hand, could not be swayed. Creatures of Faerun do not understand Mind Flayers - hell, even the Gods don't, because Mind Flayers' souls don't even register to them. They only register to the Mind Flayer's God. Aberrations are, by nature, unknowable alien beings. So, when Balduran tried to assure Ansur that he was in control, Ansur did not relent - it's in his nature, gifted to him by Bahamut. It's truly a situation of never being able to understand each other's perspectives, and it led to the death of Ansur while Balduran survived. Both of these creatures were put into situations where they were going to inevitably lose a very close friend, and both of these creatures had to fight to keep themselves alive.
He definitely didn't want to talk about the Ansur thing because it's a wound that still stings, because the situation just sucks overall. But I see people point it out like it's some grand piece of evidence of the Emperor being a heartless dick, when like, at the end of the game if you work with him he tells you he's just gonna go back to keeping Baldur's Gate safe because he loves his city and he loves his people.
I mean... I definitely see where you're coming from, but The Emperor isn't Balduran. He's the Tadpole that consumed Balduran.
Ansur isn't wrong - Balduran is gone and the Emperor is flat-out evil. He enthralled Duke Stelmane (appearing to the rest of the world as her experiencing a stroke) and will attempt to force you to accept becoming a Mind Flayer if you resist him too strongly. Yes, he runs a shadow-organization in Baldur's Gate, but I'm more inclined to believe that it's because he wants to be in a seat of power.
If you insist on freeing Orpheus, he decides to side with the Netherbrain - against both you and Baldur's Gate. That isn't the action of someone who loves his city and its people.
If you side with the Emperor and bring up taking over the Netherbrain and ruling the world with its power, he says "I admit, the thought crossed my mind... but we'd be painting a large target on our backs from the Githyanki." He has NO ISSUE using the Absolute's power to dominate the universe - he just doesn't want to draw the Githyanki's ire.
The Emperor is evil. Ansur was right to try and staunch that evil right away.
Also, he flat-out forces the Astral Tadpole onto you if you've consumed enough normal tadpoles because he "knows you want it." That's... Extremely scummy, to say the least.
@@SoralaxPlays He doesn't at all. If you consumed some tadpoles, you have to make a check. If you didn't, you don't. Pretty simple.
@illythriah793 You know what, that's fair - that bit was technically speculation on my part. Given that he asks if you want to do it and you immediately have to roll a wisdom save to say no if you've consumed tadpoles paired with the fact that he later threatens to force your transformation, I interpreted this as the Emperor being the one to force your transformation. However, there is nothing that outright states this, so that may well have been your own tadpole forcing the save.
I think there's insufficient evidence to say that it is or isn't the Emperor forcing it, so that bit shouldn't be counted against his character. I stand by everything else I said above, though 😂
I love this take!
0:01 thank you for the warning. Won’t watch but I’m engaging with the content out of respect and gratitude
Gotta respect that!
Emperor is a really well written character I feel but damn I still want my Dream Guardian waifu give me this in a dlc Larian.
I do wish that the dream guardian stuck around for longer in the game. Or at least was featured in more prominent roles before being a mainstay as a mindflayer... Thanks for the comment!
@@FiguringOutFantasyif you decide to romance the emperor you can ask him to go back into guardian form when romancing
The way they made you make the dream guardian characters works even when you KNOW who they are. Because each one of my playthroughs has me think about who I'm creating and WHY the character I'm playing trusts them. For me, Astarion's Dream Visitor is an unremembered parent. Shadowheart's is her only friend, Nocturn, who she barely remembers. Gale's looks as close to Mystra as I can make her. Who better to manipulate them than faces they know or trust or feel at least fleetingly familiar with?
I had a very different view of the Emperor in my first playthrough which I think is very interesting and would like to share.
Basically: i trusted him, and didn’t realize the change in stellmane’s attitude was because of him, so he seemed legit. He didn’t even force me to become half ilithid, so i respected that. Orin kidnapped lae’zel, and she died during the fight, so now the only person who wanted orpheus free was raphael, so i didn’t get the orphic hammer (yes, i ignored raphael. For some reason, he didn’t show up again to offer me the contract in the astral prism). The whole situation with Ansur made me wary, but i gave the emperor the stones and he consumed orpheus. During the fight inside of the brain, i didn’t know that the platforms would collapse, so he died. I killed the brain, and destroyed the crown (i never found gale and chose not to dominate the brain). During everyone’s post credit scenes at the docks, the emperor thanked me for the help and said he’d go back to trying to restart the knights of the shield or something like that, and i never saw him again.
So in a series of coincidences, he seemed like an incredibly reasonable and trustworthy companion that worked with me until the end and then went his own way. Things went much differently my first playthrough, but i think it’s interesting that he never even mentioned making a play to control the absolute in my first playthrough even though i worked with him the whole time.
Mind flayers can control the mind and the very first time players create their character they also need to physically define their guardian based on their desires. Which is like the most mind flayer like thing looking into the players mind and shaping themselve into a body the player likes aka guardian YOU create at the start.
The trick of designing our Guardian was effective in that my first character was based on my favourite PnP character from my days playing, and I choose my character 's most trusted friend as his guardian. So I put a lot of faith into him. So while I immediately distrusted him once the reveal happens, I probably gave him more leeway than I would have in just about any other circumstance.
What immediately raised alarm bells for me was how expertly crafted the appearance and mannerisms of the visitor were. When appearing as a protector they are clad in armor.
This persists to when they are defending themselves, despite their surrender Gambit, because surrender only matters when the surrendered side is ceding real power. The fact that this is a performance enhanced this; if they were truly attempting to beg clemency they'd appear nonthreatening, but it's not about convincing us not to kill them, we have given plenty of reason to doubt the efficacy of that ploy already, but to maximize the impact of our decision not to kill them.
However when appearing before us unasked in the shadowlands they take the skimpy harem slave attire, because they're trying to invite sympathy and disarm us...to get us to unquestionably believe their assertion that they've saved us multiple times. And if/when we go, the apparent *cost* of that to them, the states emotional toll and visible vulnerability, invokes even more gratitude.
It's such a clear manipulation that it can't be anything but intentional. It's effective, which just makes it even more of a red flag.
I uh... Turned tav into an illithid. Only to get a sad ending where I go into hiding and think really hard.
Its amazing how one dialog changes sooo much
Right!? It's amazing how much you can miss in this game to later out has context that you just needed to dig for. Thanks for the comment!
Something that breaks the Emperors house of lies is Omeluum. He is genuinely a friendly mind flayer who is ACTUALLY trying to help you at every turn. Where as, the Emperor deals constantly in half-truths, telling us we can trust him etc etc. "I am a mind flayer lies are my language" are they? Omeluum doesn't seem to lie to us.
11:30 Correctiont: Vlaakith was NEVER referring to the Dream Visitor, but rather Orpheus, as just the knowledge of him even being alive threatened her ENTIRE RULE over the Githyanki people. Even Kithrak Voss believed that the "voice" from the Prism was Orpheus', and that he'd been the one who had "chosen" the protagonists to be his liberators while keeping his identity secret. Of course WE know that wasn't the case, but it goes to show that neither Vlaakith, nor Orpheus' allies (outside the Prism) knew anything about the presence of a Mind Flayer inside the Prism.This means the Emperor's presence was never a determining factor over Vlaakith's labeling of the Prism as "corrupted".
Hearing Ansurs expression of disgust at Baldurans betrayal broke my heart! They seemed like brothers, ansur taking a Dragonborn form and “seeing the world through his eyes” is just such a cool duo. Mindflayers are terrifying
I would like to point out that the emperor only go’s through with becoming the absolute if you push him to it but he will do as promised and destroy it if left to his own devices
23:42 though at this point you don’t actually know whether the Emperor is honest or manipulates the visions to threaten you. The nicest part I saw was when the Elder brain told the Emperor that it manipulated them the whole time - but there isn’t actually proof that the elder brain didn’t just play to the Emperors fears to make the lie stick.
So many key characters in this game are either lying to us or withholding information.
The only ones being open and honest to us are the Dead Three.
See now THIS is why The Emperor is my favourite character. Everyone automatically assumes I like him for weird reasons.
I spent nearly a ducking hour to make my dream waifu. I've been bamboozled, hoodwinked, duped. My disappointment is immeasurable amd my day is ruined
We’ve been SHMECKLDORFED
You forgot to mention that it was Ansur who freed the Emperor the the Elder Brain, and did everything in its power to help Balduran, but in the end Balduran killed him. Also its breaks me everytime when the Emperor down plays their relationship.
I designed my perfect lesbian couple, only for it to be a squid.
I think im realizing im extremely trusting because when the emperor showed himself i literally had no problem still trusting him :0
If Tav chooses to become illithid to stop the elder brain, talking to Minsc in the end party you have to beat a 15 constitution roll or you try and eat his brain.
Interesting piece of information! I hadn't encountered this!
I agree that it feels weird that you can't even try to convince the emperor to side with while freeing Orpheus but ultimately, I think he wouldn't do it either way. He is all about control and he would rather be set back in his plan (side with the absolute, only hoping he'll eventually be freed again) rather than take a risk he cannot estimate (freeing Orpheus, whomst he could not control even if he wanted to).
The art used on the cover is a really cool piece and illustrated nicely. Good choice
The reveal that he was Illithid blew my mind, the reveal as Balduran fucking BLEW MY MIND, and at some point between those two moments he also *blew* my mind
And the last plot twist, if we worked with the Emperor against the brain, at the end he DID NOT turn on us. He was just chill and left us alone...
So, I think one thing that was enlightening for me in my perspective of the Emperor was comparing him with what I like to call the "sympathetic vampire" trope. There might be another name for it, but its the idea that a character has some need which requires them to be either anagonistic towards humans, or find it nessisary to feed off of them no matteer how uncomfortable they are with it. I call it by that name because I first saw it in older vampires, which were first being humanized, vampires which hated their affliction but also didn't want to commit suicide(assisted or otherwise) just because of it, yet they must still feed off of humans. You can also see it in other characters which aren't "vampires" persay like Ahri from League of Legends, where much of her tragic backstory is from not being able to control her own need. The Emperor also seems to possess this attitude, even in all his deception, but its his methods which don't typically align with what I have seen of this trope typically, and that is basically a conqueroring of it by dominating the source as a true tyrant. Its like the version of Astarion who becomes the Ascendant, instead of being free, he further entrenches himself into the muck which forced that "need" on him. Using the previously mentioned example with Ahri, she seems to resolve her situation through a sort of solance and acceptance, but also through moderation and trying to find out more about her kind(as she is the last one she knows of), as unlike a vampire(and technically Illithids) she was born who she was, and not changed. So how she deals with it is closer to the Wild Magic player characters, and honestly closer to the WIld Magic Barbarian, in that she controls the "curse" and just lets it all out when its nesssiary, but seeking to become more like a Wild Magic Sorcerer, trying to find the loop holes and learn how her kind truly work. Its like the Emperor is pretending to be this "sympathetic vampire" both to us and to himself to some degree, but in reality its the Illithid impulses which control him.
If you just go with the flow and give him the nether stones and tell him to destroy the nether brain he does, and I think thats pretty telling in itself. In the end, he just leaves and doesn't try to control you anymore, getting the one thing he wanted from the beginning freedom. If you become an illithid he will ask you to join him rebuilding the old gang again. The payer character has the power to sway people to the side of good or bad. The emperor is no different in that regard.
Video says if you give him the stones he wont destroy the brzin but take control of it
@Kortex42 that's only if you convince him go against the gith and take control. If you have him destroy the brain he does that.
This is a possible ending yes, but I don't think it's too telling since his only justification for not taking control is because of the Gith and the force they pose. He even mentions he had thought about it himself, with no mention of what it would do to us. Thanks for the comment, enjoyed reading your thoughts!
@@Kortex42 "Video says" bro why do you not want to think for yourself? Let alone play the game lmao
I know why using omeluum as the mindflayer needed isn’t an option in the game, because that would be the easy way out to a happy go lucky ending, same why you can’t persuade empy to spare Orpheus.
But if it would be possible it would be the perfect ending. But by that, this perfect game would have its greatest decision removed.
Perhaps using omeluum isn’t as bad in this context as empy, but regardless would be anticlimactic.
This way you either lose the githyanki hope symbol, and lae’zel, or yourself to the tadpole, karlach to the tadpole, or gale to the orb
"What prevented Vlaakith from noticing your tadpole"
She did notice it. She speaks to Lae'zel of seeking purification.
That's one reason she wants you dead no matter what you do in the prism.
Do you know why BG3 is such a masterpiece of writing? My story with Emperor was completely different from anything you describe here.
I didn't try to kill him and just legged it from Vlaakiths wrath.
I showed him some empathy, yet didn't romance him.
I didn't sign a contract with Raphael, went to kill him though.
Then Karlach became a mind flayer to survive and absorbed Orpheus.
I didn't do the quest with Ansur, as it was my very first run and I really wanted to get the golden dice playing blindly, so it wasn't worth the risk.
He never called me a puppet.
We stopped Orin first and betrayed Gortash later, to destroy the Netherbrain fighting with Emperor arm in arm as allies.
Everyone went their own way, but the letter from the good friend Emperor at the reunion party made by Withers was quite heartwarming part of a very bittersweet ending.
Complexity of the writing in this game is beyond anything I ever dreamed of in RPGs.
I personally wish we had both the Dream Lover from early access and the Guardian/Emperor. The Dream Lover was I believe to be the tadpole trying to influence the player and become more illithid hence why it pushed you to collect tadpoles. Not knowing who is influencing you at times in your dreams, either the Guardian/Emperor or the Dream Lover would make for an interesting dynamic. 💜 If the Dream Lover also changed its appearance and demeanour from what you created to reflect the traits of whichever companion you are romancing would also been very interesting. ❤ Choosing to side with the Emperor is the best choice since it doesn’t affect any of your characters negatively or the story and I kind of wish it wasn’t so.
I mean, it's no 'Would you kindly,' and you can definitely predict it from a long way off, but it's a solid twist.
This is what I'm looking for on a Baldurs Gate lore video. Awesome stuff!!!
Thank you so much! I'm thrilled you enjoyed, make sure to stay tuned for more!
I don't trust the Emperor because of something we learn about if we decide to become Illithid ourselves:
Once you become a Mind Flayer, the narrator informs you that you now see your companions as pawns to manipulate. You can try to pass a willpower check to ignore this sensation, but the fact that you need to pass checks to avoid becoming an Illithid like the others means you would be having a constant struggle and battle against yourself.
Balduran/the Emperor will reveal to you, if you refuse to listen to his bullshit, that he does indeed view you as nothing more than a pawn to serve him. And the fact he destroyed the mind of his 'love', who he was also enthralling and manipulating, and the fact he killed Ansur to remain an Illithid... it's pretty blatantly clear the Emperor can't be trusted. He's just another manipulator, like Vlaakith.
I don’t think I’ve ever hated, purely HATED, a character in a game as much as the Emperor. He’s so emotionally abusive, narcissistic and manipulative and that hit a bit too close to home for me as a person. Which to me, speaks to his quality as a character. His role in the narrative is also amazing given who he is. He’s also likely the Mind Flayer who infected you to begin with.
I know a lot of people will have varying interpretations of the Emperor though. Which again, speaks to his quality.
Edit: the fact he gives the tadpole when you first find out he’s a mind flayer is kind of the point. Why? Because if you’ve listened to the Dream Guardian and taken Illithid powers, you either have to pass a difficult wisdom check or be forced to transform. He doesn’t respect your autonomy at all, it’s a mask off moment
I'll admit the forcing you to take the astral tadpole's power is a shady moment, but I've always chalked it up to a "Just take your fucking pills it's good for you" moment
Ngl it came off as your tadpoles trying to force you to evolve hence the saving throw since by that point you can have 2-(idk like 12 or something) in your brain
@@lokiserpentem8534yeah but the emperor was the one like ‘go on take the tadpoles’ the whole time lmao
@@MissChambersxo i mean yeah but all im saying is im pretty sure its your tadpole forcing you in that specific moment if you try to say no and fail bc theres no saving throw if you never took more tadpoles and kept yours weak which hypothetically should make you easier to control
Orpheus is the right way, despite everything the man is willing to sacrifice himself to stop the greater evil despite being free for all of 3 minutes
I only care that you can't get the green robin hood outfit he has on sitting on the roof in the cutscene. 0:15
I'm sick of peopel pretending the emperor is pure evil or pure good. He's a morally grey illithid and his motivation is self preservation. If anyone else was in his position I doubt we could say we wouldn't do almost exactly what he does
I will never fall for the influence of a mindflayer! Wait, why am i subscribed all of a sudden? And i liked the video? What is this sorcery?!?
And what is this force causing me to make more videos for my awesome viewers?!?
@@FiguringOutFantasy Witchcraft!
The emperor thought he was manipulating us. He’s the one that put the tadpoles in our heads to begin with. He thought it was his plan to recruit us and use us. But it was all known and allowed to happen by the nether brains design.
you can't convince emperor to let orpheus free because he is sure orpheus will turn hostile against him and he is right. orpheus might be friendly to tav but he would've attacked emperor without a second thought. emperor used his powers for himself and destroyed his honor guard. unlike you, emperor is already a full illithid, and he enjoys being an illithid. orpheus wouldn't let him live.
ansur tried to kill emperor first. he had every right to defend himself, would you let lae'zel kill you if you couldn't convince her to drop the knife when you were at the edge of transformation?
he appeared as dream guardian because he is the very thing you are trying to avoid to become. he needed your trust to accomplish his plan.
he holds his promise and returns to shadows after defeating the netherbrain if you don't encourage him to become absolute.
he doesn't enthrall you from the very beginning, he could've done that. he wants you to embrace your potential but never forces you, he respects your free will on this one even if he is right about the tadpoles would give you more strength more than anything to achieve your common goal.
he does tell you that you are a puppet but only if you are extremely rude to him. some believes illithids has no feelings but not, illithids experience feelings and frustration and anger are the most common of their feelings.
one thing i can't understand is that there is a portrait of stelmane in his hideout. why would he put that there?
all we know, he is not a good guy, but not a bad guy too. just a survivor. yes he manipulates us but what would you do in his stead? imagine emperor visiting us in our dreams and say ''hello, i am balduran, i've killed my best friend ansur for my own survival and enslaved stelmane for the same reason. ansur lies dead under the baldur's gate. i hold prince oprheus as my prisoner and use his power to protect mysefl and you, btw vlaakith devours ascended githyankis souls and she is a traitor. i am a mindflayer, i feel nothing and devour brains but only the criminal ones, now would you please consume this tadpole so we can survive?''. this is an alliance, you don't need to be friend with emperor, you just need to honor it and you'll get a good ending. even after that lae'zel can start a rebellion and she'll still like you in case you care about githyanki nations fate that much.
on the other hand, orpheus carries her mother's ambitions. to exterminate all the illithids and enslave all humanoids. all istiks are lesser races for them. we know that githzerai are not as evil as githyanki but still, they are evil and racist. our choice is clear: to help a neutral illithid and save an individual or to help a lawful evil prince and free his bloodthirsty people. on a good guy run, i'd choose to help emperor.
The emperor lied so many times and dared to flirt with me on top of that. What a who-
Last two BG3 videos have been great! Keep ‘me coming!
That’s the plan! Stay tuned.
Another twist is that it is likely that the Emperor was the mind flayer at the beginning that gave Tav and others their tadpoles. He first stole the prism but then chose to give the prism to Shadowheart and party to defeat the Elder Brain. That contributed to the shock at the end when he realizes that the Elder Brain manipulated him to free him from the crown. The levels of overlapping manipulation in the subplots is a gordian knot.
I turned Karlach into an illithid. Her epilogue dialogue detailing her eating of terminal patients coupled with her newfound somber tone gave way to a theory I have: the types of brains consumed affect the mindflayers personality. Karlach sounds almost depressed (whether his is compared to her normal energy or an intended tone is subject for debate), and consuming the brains of terminal patients/people at the end of their lives would probably do that to someone. Especially with the knowledge that Karlach had that simple living denied of her--twice (Gortash's deal with Zariel and then her sacrifice to save the world).
Couple this with the "fact" we're given of the Emperor eating "criminals" and arguably villainous people, it stands to reason he adopted those traits over time. Contrasted to Omeluum, who appears kind in every way (though his diet isn't specified or I missed it in my playthrough). Omeluum is good-natured and helps us when he could easily worry for his own life (Iron Throne), yet he expresses gratitude and pledges allegiance to our cause--something the Emperor never did. The Emperor expected fealty. He didn't simply abandon his good, I firmly believe he drowned it with the "moral decision" of eating violent and evil people. I mean, backstabbing a lifelong friend? Puppeteering an ally? Those things sound like criminal actions, what lowly rogues would do to people who get cold feet on a job or something.
Also worth noting: Omeluum has the ring of mind shielding, this too could be a factor in his lack of corruption, shielding him from both the Elder Brain and from losing "his mind" against the menagerie of those he consumes.
I still don't know what to make of Withers' comment about mindflayers and souls, especially since he states whoever (Orpheus/Tav/Karlach) still appears to be themselves. Perhaps when shielded from the brain completely/mostly, there's less degradation of the "soul?" I would assume being a thrall for so long also does major damage to the individual's sense of self and their morality along the way, after being made to do countless horrid actions.
In the end, I'm aware this is based on DnD and it has a number of references to mindflayers being soulless and whatnot, but the creative direction and lean of certain characters truly does make me wonder. While sad, I prefer to believe Karlach simply mellows out and finds purpose in alleviating the pain of those nearing the end, rather than slowly becoming a monster. Plus, it makes the fall of Balduran more tragic, in my opinion: a man who wants to be good, remain good--he tries to cull the evil, only to wind up becoming what he eats. Murdering friends, using people as pawns--his actions to ensure he remained on "the right path" ultimately make him go astray. There's a bittersweet sentiment to that that I personally enjoy.
This is based solely on information within the game. By no means is it guaranteed to be true, but I personally like to think it explains the nature of mindflayers within the game.
Omeluum partnered with a lich for a time. Who comes after liches and mindflayers? Heroic adventurers.
My headcanon is that Omeluum inherited some of the values of these adventurers, which eventually led to his falling out with the lich.
That being said, it seems to be a gradual process. Depending on how long Omeluum partnered with the lich it could take a long time before his personality has a significant shift, and if he sucessfully replicates the nutrition of brains (which he's actively researching) he might keep his personality for the rest of his life.
Withers is canonically wrong in the game.
If you become a mindflayer but kill yourself in the ending: Withers learns something.
I had my suspicions about the Dream Guardian at first, wasn't SUPER shocked he was an illithid.
. . . him being Balduran though made my jaw drop to the floor.
Emperor is a pretty cool guy. If anyone of us was in his situation, we would have done alot worse.
Plus, despite all his lies and shit, he's trustworthy if you don't antagonize him to death
The Emperor is all about power. The organization Knights of the Shield, was in earlier editions, quite semi-racist group (human supremacy, especially centered in area). The Emperor isn't a reliable character; personification of ends justify any means. A well-written character, believable snd strong. Maybe he only lies being Balduran, he tricked Ansur, then killed him. Ansur is the guardian of Baldur's Gate - he would have risen against the grand design. Emperor swaps sides if gonagaindt him, because he wants the crown of Karsus for himself. Being crowned Emperor and transform into Elderbrain. He just wants power.
What i find funny, is when the Astarion Crowd Claims the Emporer a toxic Gaslighting Ahole etc. but than romance and praise their ascendend Astarion...."He Loved us, we fixed him" ROFL....
Yah, ascended Astarion is basically Cazador...
The "Astarion Crowd" as a whole seems to strongly agree that ascended Astarion is the bad end for him, from everything I've seen. That said yeah there are definitely people here and there who completely miss that in his character arc. What can you do, with a big enough audience there's always some people who miss the point entirely.
Pretty sure the people who say they "fixed Astarion" are the ones who got him not to ascend.
I have seen literally NO ONE treat ascended Astarion that way. It is pretty much universally agreed that Ascension is his bad ending. They treat SPAWN Astarion that way, because you literally can fix him.
@@LordofFullmetalngl it could be a tiktok crowd but you’d be surprised by how many people actually try to argue that a lot of their ascended versions are good. Most of the justifying goes to ascended Astarion (though I know people who try to say it about DJ Shad and God!Gale) and they’re usually the fans who heavily oversexualize him. It sadly is a big part of Astarion’s fandom but I could also be sealed in an unwanted echo chamber being on Tiktok 💀💀
When I first discovered who The Emperor was, I just thought: "There he is--JOHN BALDUR HIMSELF"
i just dont get it, the hate on emperor. sure he manipulated us and kept some secrets but at the end of the day he only wants the same thing as tav, freedom and to destroy the netherbrain. bro i swear if he was an handsome elf instead of that tentacle monter everyone would be simping over him and calling him a tragic and complex character or an anti hero, you know it dont deny it. and dont even get me started on how he switches sides, thats just bad writing.
Interestingly the emporer never threatened nor forced me to transform / use the tadpole. He tried to convince me sure but never used threats even through I never used any of the parasites. He even ends up helping me destroy the elder brain ... which in a way is also a plot twist I guess.
The only thing that is missing is your material is what is happening after you ally with Emperor. After defeating the brain he just goes away and it's hard to tell if he has any new goal (I might have missed that as I was focusing more on my party). So, is he true evil really or rather he's convinced that his way is the only solution and uses player, and before the duke as a tool to save the city. Peoiple saying that he was Netherbrain's agent makes little sense since he is literally fighting it.
We could probably agree that being ilithid made him genius and ignorant in many aspects but fulfilling his commands ultimately leads to freeing the city. It's really sad that there is no golden balance between saving Orpheus and keeping Emperor as an ally since one of the stories is going to and badly and unfair.
With your final point, I didn;t have to persuade The Emperor of anything when it came time to kill the Nether Brain. I had always took them at their word throughout the game (except when it came to Orpheus, I questioned them then and wanted to persuade them otherise to work together). I found in my playthrough the Emperor a reliable ally and interesting character, and fully expected them to try and betray us in the end. But for me they just... didn't, no persuasion check required.
Honestly if you think about it you would probably lie too if you were the emperor if you know the main characters won’t trust because you are a mind flayer and would constantly question every advice you give
Fuck the emperor. All my homies trust Omeluum
After I found out that the Emperor enthralled Duke Stelmane in my third playthrough (yes, it took me that long) I noticed another detail. Eyes of all the other mindflayers we see in the game are yellow. Eyes of the Emperor are purple. Could it be a sign that we are being charmed/enthralled by him too? Not to such an extend like Duke Stelmane, as we still have our free will after all, but I think some level of mind influence is at play here as well. I didn't pay attention to whether his eyes turn yellow or remain purple during the fight against him atop the Netherbrain.
Hmmm, certainly makes you think!
22:43 caught me off guard since I've never romanced The Emperor in any playthrough I've done 😂