What I love about Wyll joining Karlach in Avernus is that it shows just how selfless he is. I know people complain about Wyll being "boring," but he is a wonderful addition to the cast because he is the one character that defines heroism. Everyone is struggling with their past, carrying an immense burden with them. But Wyll has absolutely no regrets about his pact with Mizora - he outright says he would have gladly done it again if it was to keep the Sword Coast safe. He always knows just what to say around the party to raise their spirits, admits when he is wrong, and is super humble. He is the character who, in a scenario without Tav, is basically the ideal party leader. And the fact that he is willing to go with Karlach when being the Blade of Frontiers protecting the Coast is the icing on the cake. Defending Baldur's Gate and the Coast was everything he worked for. It's the reason he was willing to sign a pact with Mizora at all. To throw that aside to join Karlach just so she won't have to bear being alone is incredibly noble of him.
The moment you have to convince him to not fight Karlach at the very beginning and the little "Wyll approves" thing pops up I knew he's the legend here.
thats why on my warlock playthru i decided to play as him even tho i dont like hes character design and as i play him ill see it a lot just for the fact he is such a goated person anyway def gon go to avernus with karlach after romancing her
Even though i didn't have him in my party for a single moment in my playthrough, helping him becoming Blade of Avernus and seeing him join Karlach in Avernus was extremely saitsfying. Seeing the journey these two "mortal enemies" went through ultimately becoming each others greatest supporter in the most dangerous circumstances was my favorite storyline among so many amazing stories.
I’m not saying this would happen or a I want it to but imagine if at some points my Wyll was killed in aavernus and just how sad angry and despaired Karlach would be at that moment, not only does she lose an ally and a friend, but the only true friend she has in Avernus.
I feel for astarion. you expect the death of your abuser to feel cathartic but so much more emotion comes surging up in you and it all bursts out and god it's finally over but god you never thought it'd feel like this. you never thought relief and grief and freedom and fear could mix like this. and the gleam of your fear has never felt duller and now there's space for you to find the part of it where you can walk forward
Karlach really does give "what if Hellboy was a bit less cynical" energy. Both of them have that dry humour and get riled up when violent action is needed. And I see/invision no difference between Karlach and Hellboy when they're drunk.
Nightsong: I will fight the battle that has been waiting for me for a century *At the battle, proceeds to crit fail her save against the mind flayer's dominate ability and spends half the battle being a liability*
@@jamesmcnamara2373 She can crit fail the save, then turn around and crit Gale. That whole battle depended on Shadowheart and the world's luckiest Fire Elemental.
@@manuelvasquez4144Oh do I know it, in my first playthrough she got downed constantly 😭 and that’s BEFORE Myrkul appeared so I was down to like 1 character and Barcus fucking Wroot saved my life with his special bomb Then in the second go around I skipped the first phase of the fight and Aylin downed Myrkul in like 2 turns
In my first playthrough I missed that there is a mindflayer. Sneaked a thief to her position. Freed her. She immediately got mind controlled and one hit my thief into Dead status. Afterwards I killed the mindflayer and continued the fight. Was a hard one surviving with one character on 3 wounds left. But was for sure one of my most impressive game moments ever.
I’m sorry that happened for you, she hit for like 60 damage and evaporated all the intellect devourers with her moon beam for me. Dame Aylin is a BEAST when she gets her turn. Later in the playthrough she got the killing blow on Lorroakan and the Mind Controlled Red Dragon too! It helps when you can control her instead of relying on “ally ai” becaue they make your allies so dumb usually.
I'm so glad you made this video! The character writing in this game is so good. Shadowheart throwing the spear away from Dame Aylin is what made me start acting better in my first play through. I had been an asshole as the dark urge most of the game, but seeing her shun her goddess for the sake of what was right inspired me to change and save the world. Moments like that are incredible in this game!
Thank you! I was honestly scared when on my first playthrough when picking the "your choice" dialogues for Bae'zel and Shart. But then I thought, okay yeah I trust my companions. If they're going to be evil then I will respect that, as long as it's really what they want and they can commit to it. Bae'zel has been devoted to Vlaakith, Shart has been devoted to Shar, Gale has been devoted to Mystra...too devoted I reckon. I was ready to do the same thing for Astarion but Alas, he didn't have like a "is this truly what you want?" dialogue--which was a gripe of mine for some time. (short rant) I often wondered why Astarion's dialogue choices were so limited between "to ascend or not" when the literal thorn on his side is a mortal vampire wannabe compared to Lae'zel and Shadowheart are literally defying their own GODS. Lae'zel and Shadowheart had autonomy--heck even Gale with Mystra! Wyll and Karlach are both being played by the Archdevil Zariel...but Astarion's Cazador is just...that. If Vellioth, Cazador's former master, were to be reincarnated from Cazador's corpse after Astarion ended him, I swear that would've been MORE EPIC than the defiance we have in game. Astarion could've had more autonomy after reading Vellioth's lessons and Cazador's journal as a prerequisite. Anywho, yes. HAHA. I really love this game. 😂
ah, vice versa for me 🙃 I have always been a good girl and my companions made "good" choices. and now (my 5th run) I'm playing as Durge and we are reeeally bad 😈😀
@@pikajulie_art on one hand, I completely agree that Astarion has less autonomy in his choices here. But also… that’s kind of the point of his character, isn’t it? Astarion doesn’t have autonomy because he doesn’t know how to have it. He’s been beaten down and abused for centuries, any shred of free will taken from him. Astarion isn’t *actually* fighting Cazador. I mean, he is, but the real struggle isn’t that. The real struggle there is very much internal, against the way of thinking and acting he internalised through years of helplessness. Cazador was more than a god to him for two centuries: he was his puppet master. His slaver. Astarion never had autonomy as a character, so it’s kind of beautiful, in a heart breaking kind of way, that he doesn’t get that autonomy in the game mechanics either.
@@cas2762 Truly, in a sense it is beautiful! It also makes sense that he wouldn't know what to do afterwards without the player intervention. Long comment below but no worries! These were just my thoughts about the game mechanics. I think my apprehensions with his quest is the execution of Cazador and the Szarr palace for the player. Astarion keeps on saying that yes, he fears this man that's why we have to stop him, so that feeling of fear and uncertainty also creeps through the player. Which is good so that we are familiar with the stakes. But when we got to Act 3...I dunno, I had a feeling of, "wait, this is Cazador?" We got Ketheric Thorm, Raphael, and even the three Goblin leaders who (for first time players) are like, "oh my gods we have to defeat THAT?" But for Cazador, the fanatics in the Szarr palace already shifts the tone of his quest into somewhat less threatening, compared to the dopplegangers and bhaalists we encounter and are scattered for Jaheira and Orin's quest. I was expecting more mind-controlled guards in the Szarr palace to really feel the threat. I felt that Cazador's threatening presence got overshadowed by the Sharrans, the House of Hope, the Steelwatchers, and the Bhaalists. On the other hand, I do wish Astarion's decision could've went two ways: (a) Astarion actually decides to stop the ritual if the player has been telling him to drop the thought, or (b) Astarion infiltrates Tav's mind to see his scars, if the player wasn't able to convince him to not ascend; the player would have to pass a dice roll check instead. Astarion's Origin playthrough reveals that he can actually just infiltrate a companions' mind through the tadpole to see his scars. If Tav is not present but the other companions are for Companion Astarion's pre-ritual, we instead get either (a) Dark Justiciar Shadowheart and Minthara encouraging him to do the ritual, or (b) Wyll, Karlach, Gale, Selune Shadowheart, and Lae'zel discouraging him to do the ritual. If (b) happens, Astarion permanently leaves the party, which I find kind of inconsistent? Especially if everyone's already maxed approvals with one another--like even without Tav, the good alignment companions should have sufficed over Tav's input. [Edit] Video reference: th-cam.com/video/lEolzSCjyGE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=L_MG72h0m-MReH9o , Timestamp: 39:37 The game was able to do this similar mechanic for Gale's ending where you need a persuasion check to sacrifice himself if the player kept telling Gale to stay (seen in video), and the other scenario is Gale is persistent to sacrifice himself because the player kept encouraging the thought. A similar thing happens for Lae'zel's quest where the player then has to convince her to return to Vlaakith if the player already helped Voss. It required a difficult dice roll check, and by the endgame, if you already have the hammer, you get a disadvantage dice roll to convince why you sided with the emperor. Overall, yes, Astarion not knowing what to do with Cazador afterwards makes sense. Though at the same time, there were a lot of avenues where the player can tell him ascension isn't the answer: (1) After knowing his scars through Raphael, (2) Before visiting Baldur's Gate during Act 3 intro (3) Meeting with Petras and Dalyria (4) Getting a visit from Leon and Aurelia (5) Visiting the Gur camp (6) Seeing Sebastian and the consorts (7) Talking to the Gur children (8) Reading Cazador's Journal (9) Passing the dice rolls for Vellioth's Lessons From a game programming standpoint, the aforementioned could've been an accumulating point system for Astarion to acquire that autonomy to abandon the ritual. Seeing it happen through Shadowheart, Lae'zel, and Gale was rewarding. So yes, eitherway, all the more to appreciate Astarion's writing because we players get so invested with this pixelated elf, that we want him to have his well-deserved happiness and freedom in the end. 💖
I’m doing a dark urge run now and decided to let her decide what to do. It’s cool to see that if the player doesn’t influence her at all, she chooses good. At least in my run.
Something interesting I found out is that for Shadowheart, her decision if you don’t say anything is based on whether Nightsong says her “frightened by wolves” line. If she does not say that line then Shadowheart will kill her.
I'm speculating this is when you have low-neutral approval with Shadowheart, where she doesn't open up about her fear of wolves no? Or if you didn't bring Shadowheart to any quest with a wolf? Similar as to when Gandrel doesn't explicitly say he's hunting Astarion when Astarion himself hasn't revealed he's a vampire spawn yet to Tav.
@@pikajulie_art I know for me, I did cut in at least once trying to convince her not to and stayed quiet after but that one cut in caused nightsong to not say the line and Shadowheart killed her because of it.
Can you provide some more explanation on how would you get to her not saying the line? Or tell if you’ve seen a video of that somewhere. I spent hours researching this and can confidently say that Shadowheart ALWAYS spares Nightsong unless Tav intrudes
I was so impressed on my first playthrough, in the way you could gently guide your companions - but if you tried to push them at the crucial point (Eg Shar's Gauntlet), they would often push back, get defensive and make "bad" choices. If you spend time helping Laezel, or Shadowheart, or Astarion, realise they can be more than their lives thus far have made them, they will make the choice for themselves. Love it!
I chose the wrong thing with Shadowheart once something along the lines of 'don't let your goddess control you' and she killed Aylin. I scum saved though, as I do before any big events. Changed it to 'trust Shadowheart' and by that stage my relationship with her was exceptional. She turned to my Durge and asked what she should do, after telling her I can't make the choice for her she decided to spare Aylin. Then we get the epic music and cut scene.
So with Astarion, he's only hellbent on ascending if you're romancing him. What drives him most is fear, and if he really falls for Tav/Durge, he's doubly terrified of being powerless. He's easier to convince to kill Cazador if you don't romance him and are just his friend. Just a sad fact I thought I'd leave here.
But the comment says that as a friend it is easier to persuade him than his romance. but the roll dice the same. So how is it more difficult? The statement that it's easier for him because he doesn't have to protect his love is true. (if you agree to need an Overpowered Vampire as a partner)
@@OonalovesAstarionssimpleplan But if he's not alone against Casador, he can't ascend bc no one to help him to see marks on his back. So Astarion does the one thing he can.
@@Nanicha2007 I'm not talking about the situation at the ritual. but from the statement that it would be easier to persuade him if you didn't romance him. but the number of dice is the same. So where is it easier?
Oooh, I didn't know that. Will choose a different path during next playthrough. I only heard you shouldn't have Astarion in your party when going to Cazador's lair if you wish to resolve that without a fight.
I felt so ashamed after I spent a bit insignificant time trying to save scum manipulating Shadowheart, only to have her make the choice I wanted after putting my trust in her. Have faith in your partners folks lol.
To be fair Shadowheart seems rather hell-bent to go through with it, so it's totally understandable to want to intervene. If Aylin hadn't revealed that little snippet of her fear of wolves, Shadowheart would have probably gone for it lol
I always charge alongside them. Wish we got a dlc or something that’ll allow us to kick Zariel’s ass and get Karlach her original heart, or a reunion dlc where we charge in with level 12 characters going up to level 20 to fight alongside a kickass Wyll and Badass Karlach as they breach the domain of the ruler of hells
I'm okay with them running into sunset in Avernus together. They're my favorite ship in this game and makes me sad companion to companion romance is not implemented. They're perfect for each other. And they really don't need you there, the 6 month reunion shows that they're doing just fine the two of em.
@@KutluMizrak I agree with being sad about missing companion/companion romance but I‘m also glad it isn‘t in the game. Because now I have a great reason to play all the origins to see all romance plots by doing them in ships (Karlach and Wyll, Lae‘zel and Shart, Gale and Astarion) because god knows I‘m not strong enough to ever romance someone else besides Astarion with either Durge or Tav lmaoo
I think that scene was written with Wyll in mind, since if you were playing as him, you could have him mention to Karlach his past experience with cigars.
Every time I see the Shadowheart/Aylin scene, I have chills. Every time I start a playthrough I'm so morally grey (I have yet to have a paladin playthrough where I haven't broken my oath...). But, then, Act 2 comes and the Nightsong is free and the song. I'm suddenly making morally good choices 😂. And, the fact that...all I had to do was to keep my mouth shut this one time. I hope I can do a truly evil playthrough someday but...uhm...killing the kids...I can't do it.
I haven't played a Paladin yet but have made (mostly) good decisions in each playthrough. I love the scene in the Shadowfell with Shadowheart and Nightsong where she casts aside the Spear of Night in defiance of Shar and frees Nightsong
You can do a self-serving one actually. You can get Minthara if you totally ignore the whole Druids vs Goblins affair. If you wish to see other options, you can just play a MC who really can't be bothered with the woes of absolute strangers and have Things to do and People to get to. In one of my campaigns, I played an urchin assassin whose Guild is everything to him, but said Guild is currently in a lot of trouble and he needs to get back as soon as possible to ensure that they weren't all dead. Everything else was but a distraction for him, and he just went a beeline. PS: Could just download a max exp mod, that's what I recommend for later campaigns, if you want to not be under levelled for encounters but still want to RP your own characters.
@@Fercousion i've always wondered if you play this kind of route, where do you get XP from? I get so much of mine from helping out the npc's, if you just are self serving and basically ignore most quests, how are you progressing?
That should be part of the game. Sorry, but the story here doesn't seem complete. There is that Avernus situation, there is that Bhaal is still alive, and there is a few issues here and there that need to be resolved or don't feel that they have been to their proper ends.
@@therrydiculeHow do you propose they would kill Bhaal? He is quite literally a god. As for Avernus, imo not every story needs to have a perfect beginning and end. I personally like being able to leave these things up to interpretation. Also, logistically speaking that would take lots and lots of resources just to provide closure for two characters. Should we also have a DLC where we all follow Lae'zel in her fight against Vlaakith's tyranny?
@@eliotgierat9462 Here is why I am saying this: what did the dead three lose in all the scenarios of BG3? Nothing and that annoys me. These 3 should pay. In DND 5, Bhaal is now a quasi-deity and not a full deity. Effectively, he is a mortal. Not an easy task, but it can be done. And Bane and Myrkul? Also, quasi-deities. Let alone that full-blown deity can be killed as well in DND. Albeit, usually, these are more in some sadistic ends of campaigns. However, that needs a lot of changes to the mechanics of the game. For starters, that would ask for full implementation of the DND levels. So that we can get to level 20. We can't kill Bhaal at level 12... It would also ask to have access to the outer planes of the divine realms since this is where Bhaal is often said to live: in Khalas... So maybe there is a detour to kill a certain undead Queen of the Githiyanki and a few other things in other realms. It would also ask for some sort of infiltration and contact with someone else because... Usually, a god can kick out someone they don't want in their realms, but they often delegate that to someone else. This is a bit like Hope's power but on steroids. The problem is that after killing Bhaal, it is his dealing with his essence. He will eventually resurrect. But we can maybe do the trick of a certain Zombie necromancer in act 3 and put it in a jar?
Perfectly well put, lol! Larian were geniuses imo in how they managed to create playthroughs by players unaware that there is an entire spectrum of different outcomes that occur along the way, and the influence that pushes the needle towards evil or good is US, lol. The companions are our own dark mirror and it's easy to completely miss that reality lol
I love if you romance Minthara and ask her if she's happy to be a hero in the epilogue she's like "🥺No....🥺" But you can still just keep making her do good lmao
Minthara isn't really THAT evil. She's a Drow. A Loth-sworn Drow, to be exact. Because she's a Paladin of an evil god, she is evil. Now, if she was a Paladin of Eilistraee, then it's a different story.
@@spynix0718 She is definitely pretty evil even after she renounced her faith in Lolth and stopped being mind controlled by the Absolute. Her personal philosophy is of the Lawful Evil variety, imo. That said freeing her is still an overall net positive because she decides she wants to get back home to Menzoberranzan by any means neccessary, even if she is no longer welcome. So she ends up raising an army of Drow exiles and outcasts with the intent of conquering the city. She is probably doomed to fail to be honest but hey, anything that distracts the Lolth-sworn Drow from raiding the surface can't be a bad thing.
I wish that we have an option to let Wyll decide to break the pact with Mizora or help his father on his own, not the choice to rule the city or become the blade of whatever. That was a much more harder choice and it would help him develop his character better when the only best outcome is when we convince him to be selfish.
I didn’t knew that, but I just rationalised that his fathers life doesn’t depend on pact, it depends on what Gortash decides to do with him, despite what Mizora says. So I just thought that Mizora is dramatising to get Wyll into the pact, and Gortash gains nothing from killing Ravengard, if he does such a thing he will lose precious hostage and get Wyll (and so - our team) on his bad side. The only ace Mizora had in her pocket is information about location of Ravenguard, and she doesn’t has any proof of his certain demise of we are not to make the deal, she basically says “he will perish, trust me bro”. So I just thought that we can find him by ourselves, need just left no stone unturned in this city, speak to Gortash. Not everything that NPCs in game say is truth, you can depend on your rationality to unwire their motives. And with the great character development in this game you can see that characters are consistent in their motivation and means, so we can safely assume that Mizora always bluff and jive, and Gortash doesn’t kill everybody just because he can
@@ИванКлименко-щ4с i mean sure, but still, it would be better to let Wyll choose for himself, to see if he see right through them or not, to let him have a proper character development, not us forcing another consequence on him.
I so wish they would make that last one the default ending for when the player character isn't around - like when one has to hide from the sun behind a box or is whisked away by one's utterly impatient divine ex-girlfriend. What I find hilarious about the first scene is, that if you are on Avatar-Gale, there is a second point where you have to chose between serving Mystra and reaching for dark power. Shadowheart gets extremely mad at you for choosing shadow there, it took me completely by surprise.
As of patch 4, the ending of the game is bugged for a gith player. 😂 When I joined Bae'zel's cause to rebel against the Lich Queen...I didn't get on a Dragon LOL. I was still in the docks, and then apparently Karlach's ending appeared and my character is nowhere to be seen afterwards. Also, I admit Shart is the epitome of mood swings. I love her as a companion, but I often question her reactions most of the time. 😂 Knowing she is against Avatar Gale making the shadow lamp is funny lmao. I guess the game just wanted Tav to have a right angel, left devil moment. 🤣
@@pikajulie_art Not the lamp, both she and Astarion are fine with the lamp. But with Avatar-Gale you can choose to purify one of the Thorm family members or absorb the shadow weave within them - granting you either a temporary buff or a permanent additional lvl3 spell slot. She absolutely hates you absorbing the shadow weave and her reasoning seems to be that she hates how nature suffers under the shadow curse. Astarion is the only one who thinks that particular power grab is a good idea - but he does complement you very sweetly in both cases. 😅
@@anska7475 without having seen that interaction i could also imagine it being somewhat related to her being shar's cleric and disapproving of someone not sharran using her power
knowing shadowheart CHOOSES not to kill the nightsong BREAKS ME. i always try so hard to convince her but knowing that deep down, she really does not want to do it either, she really is a selunite at heart 🥺
The Shadowheart scene is probably the most stressed and tense I have ever been watching a piece of media. My character had fallen so hard that she was willing to just… go along with it, but MAN it would have been a miserable existence for her. So when I saw the 30 check my heart just FELL. And then sHE MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE ANYWAY AND I JUST ABOUT CHEERED?! Such a well done scene.
For anyone confused about the Astarion one, I got it (my approval was Exceptional, but it only needs to be above 55 for him to listen to you as a voice of reason, not control) and a successful insight check shows that he is afraid, but doesnt really want it. He then kills Cazador. I had all 6 of his spawn siblings survive, and he released the 7000 into the underdark, he chose to be honest with the Gur, and he didn't get annoyed at me for helping him end the Rite. He was relieved straight away. I would say this is the best ending for him, especially after the epilogue where he is so happy ❤
You can get Astarion's golden ending without leaving him alone?? (Yes you still have to convince him but he's more willing to listen) I just want to see him kill Cazador, free the others and be there to comfort him. He suffered so much and killing Cazador was hard!! Seeing him break down sobbing made me want to hug him and offer him a cloak or something, just so he wouldn't be alone and miserable AND half naked... And after that we can steal anything not nailed down let Astarion do as he wished with it (give the spoils to the Spawn, keep it, destroy it, or sell it to use the money himself. My Tav is typically pretty good aligned but she'd be the first to tell Astarion to take everything)
I'm curious as to how he comes to the decision of saving the spawn or killing them. On both of my playthroughs, I convinced him not to do the ritual but gave him the choice on what to do with the spawn, and he killed them both times.
I always do the insight check, and then the persuasion roll that follows. At that stage we are fully romanced, my Durge is aware of who he is and they have vowed to save one another. He is rolling in adrenaline and bloodlust at that stage, it makes sense that he would crave that power. All he wants is safety, and to protect his lover as they had been doing. When you tell him that it's not okay, that this isn't who he is... The relief that washed over his face was insane. I sobbed the first time I finished this quest, his screams as he was done, the graveyard scene that followed... I had to stop for the rest of the night. I think they only ending to a companion quest where I didn't cry was Gale's and that was just because I felt so proud. Karlach and Wyll was full ugly sobbing, Lae'zel flying off on her red dragon. I love this game, and I honestly can't get enough of it.
wyll following karlach to avernus just to save her life makes me so emotional, maybe because they’re my two faves. It’s a bittersweet end (or at least it was until that recent patch which implied they’re working on a way for her infernal engine to exist outside the hells), but it’s fitting in the moment
There's no real way to let Astarion make his own choice. By that i mean there no dialogue option for it. This version only happens if one or more of the spawns die in the battle, making it impossible for him to ascended. I think it can also happen if he never finds out about the ritual and all that info is sprung on him AT Cazador's. Probably because he doesn't have time to *convince* himself he needs the ritual. He's a lot more genuinely affected by the prisoners still being alive in that version. He doesn't say, "well they have to be sacrificed 🤷♂️" he says, "I'm gonna be sick".
I see so many ppl who haven't actually played the game or dug into companions storylines far enough to discover that every single companion has a range of ways their personality can present themselves over the course of the game. The only companion that never shows an ounce of potential and then eventual heroism, goodness, empathy, and redemption is Minthara. EVERY other companion proves capable of sacrifice, kindness, and ultimately heroic selflessness. Basically, they'll reflect what biases and prejudices you do, and those which you invest into them, either selfishness and evil, or selflessness and good.
In her own way Minthara can be "nice". While she will never be as friendly as Gale (man went from neutral to liked before Act 2) she does have some moments where she does show some compassion. There's a dialogue between the two where Gale asks her about some empty bottles if she's in a relationship with Tav. Her reply isn't traditionally sweet, but by comparison to other Drow or just her family, it's understandable that on the off chance she visits home with Tav, it helps if they have a tolerance to poison.
Minthara is there. There is now a way to get her without killing the Tieflings. And apparently she does approve of some heroic things such as helping Wulbren.
on my playthrough gale actually insisted a lot on letting him go to explode the netherbrain himself. I have tried talking him out of it but he kept insisting. So I told him to do whatever he liked and he went up by himself.
I think Astarion only makes the good decision when alone because you aren't there to be his eyes in order to replicate the runes on his back. With the path to power he craves out of reach, the only other choice he can make is to make sure Cazador doesn't get it. As for Karlach, I haven't tested other situations myself, but if Wyll isn't there and you aren't romancing her, she will opt to die right there.
i was not romancing her but i had a good relationship with her, ie approved every single decision i made the entire playthrough, i wanted to romance shadowheart but it was my first playthrough and i forgot to finish her questline bcz i felt like i was being rushed in act 3. when Dammon broke the bad news to her i told her then and there i won't let her die and to not even think about it, and once i got to the dock scene, Wyll was Duke, i was still able to tell her we are going to Avernus together and she still agreed to go with me.
What I tried in my playthrough is Astarion visiting the Gur Camp solo; unfortunately, patch 4 bugged the interaction when you save Gandrel (which I did in my playthrough). The conversation gets cut off where I didn't see Astarion choosing to save the Gur children. This should be the outcome: th-cam.com/video/Jc52srxveS0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=f0Cohmlo2QiTOnNQ On one hand, the earliest interaction where he decides on his own was when he just outright sinks a knife onto Gandrel (pre-vampire reveal). I reviewed my past footages and I realized most of the early choices were Tav choosing for Astarion. D: [Spoilers below] . . . . Lae'zel gets to choose her own path when Vlaakith visits the camp in Act 3. Shadowheart also chooses on her own what to do in the House of Grief upon meeting her parents. Gale decides the fate of his life on his own. I do wished Astarion made his choice on his own when he faced Cazador; some pointed out that Origin Astarion can actually use the tadpole on his own to remember the scars, so I'm not sure why his autonomy isn't applicable when he is Tav's companion. :c Edit: I have romanced Astarion for three playthroughs, made compilations, and reviewed my game footages. XD The only scene I remember where he exerts autonomy with Tav is if you let Astarion respond to Ulma either after ending or freeing the spawns. Romance-wise, he is pretty persistent with Tav not becoming an Illithid, but it's not part-part of his personal quest though like Bae'zel's and Shart's.
you just tell him what he already knows: that he would lose himself and that he can be better. it involves an insight check and seeing the prisoners before the fight obviously, but otherwise just let him choose.
Yeah, but it required a dice roll though. :< It's still a Pass or Fail thing game-wise. Lae'zel, Shadowheart, Karlach, Wyll, and Gale didn't need a dice roll to choose on their own.
I'm doing some tests of this on my current playthrough. I'll report back if I turn up any conclusive results. or, I suppose, at least interesting. because Astarion has always made the "good" choice on his own for me, and I'm trying to understand why so many believe he *won't*.
@@pikajulie_art hm? I've always been forced to tell Wyll what to do. I presumed it was a sign that he wasn't confident in his own decision-making because of his error with Karlach.
I really hope Karlach and Wyll show up as legacy characters in BG4, it would be awesome to travel to Avernus and see these tight knit friends at the head of a newly established devil hierarchy. I'm sure they'd have entertaining quests and valuable rewards to give to the party that's having a dreadful tumble through the hells.
its a shame that choice depends solely on if you get a very specific reaction/dialogue in the lower city that appears to be glitched. Shadowheart will only choose to save the aprents if you get that short conversation about the smells of the city, which seems to trigger randomly or not at all for most people, even if you give SH the noblestalk, find her graffiti, put a night orchid on the grave she interacts with at the graveyard etc.
There is also the part where I say nothing to Lae'zel when Vlaakith visits the camp, and yes also this part where I tell Shadowheart what to do with her parents. I have them recorded but it would make my video around 40 minutes long; I also had this video uploaded after 3 hours before realizing I forgot these scenes so I just gave up. 😂
@@anska7475 you'd think so but no. people have tested and the small number of people who got her to choose to save the parents had the smells of the city convo. after that, killing or sparing viconia had no affect on sh's choice
@@pikajulie_art can you still post the shadowheart video if you got her to choose to save her parents on her own please? I don't think anyone has actually posted that specific video on youtube yet.
It breaks my heart but also makes sense that Astarion only ascends if you are there. You're the first person in 200 years to give him a choice and having you by his side probably scares him enough to go through with it. Absolutely insanely good writing.
I feel like it makes a lot of sense that Astarion would be the only character that can't/won't choose the good option for himself. With all the other traumatized companions (by that I mean Shart, Lae'zel and Gale specifically) they didn't KNOW they were being deceived, manipulated, tortured or used up until relatively shortly before their choices. Lae'zel JUST found out her goddess had been lying to her, as did Shart (hell Shart didn't remember much of anything prior to the mindflayers anyway). Gale wasn't so much tortured as being groomed and then blamed for his bad decision which isn't really something where you would look at the person doing it to you as a tormentor without a lot of prior healing. All of them had just gotten their faith broken, so it makes sense that they'd be bitter, and encouraged enough to make a conscious choice to forsake their gods. Astarion didn't have that. He KNEW Cazador was a monster from day one, knew he was being used, manipulated and tortured. And for no reason too. The only thing that he figures out is that, actually, the torture had reason, it was just very in line for Cazador being a sadistic bastard which was hardly news to him. So from this perspective, for Astarion alone nothing changed. His tormentor is still basically the same monster he's always been, he still uses him and the only reason he's had the power to flee was through the tadpole which for all intents and purposes he needs to get rid of or he dies. Therefore the only actual out he has is usurping Cazadors ritual. The other characters all had genuine alternatives. Astarion thinking his only real out is ascending makes sense at that point in the story. Because he wasn't able to break free as just a spawn, so why would he be able to STAY free as just a spawn? Genius writing in my opinion. All this is just my interpretation of course, but I feel like it fits his writing and character quite nicely, no matter how much Tav has redeemed him up until that point. (Can't really snap away two centuries of torment in a couple months I'd wager)
im doing a mostly evil playthrough, in all others i managed to do the persuasion check to stop shadowheart from becoming a justiciar, but this run i decided to let her handle it and was surprised when she threw away the spear herself with no intervention from my tav. I love when games do this, just cause one of your abilities lets you pass a check or gives you a new dialogue option doesnt mean its the best one to choose.
Oh man. I feel silly now. I kinda figured you HAD to persuade them so they'd make the good decisions. The thought never really occurred to me that if i let them make their own decisions it was even possible they'd do the right thing. (Aside from a couple of plot points where they had previously expressed that what they wanted lined up with my thoughts)
My only thing with Gale at the end is if you do his quest and encourage good he’ll volunteer to use the orb at the end. You don’t even have to bring it up.
I got done his quest and encouraged and eventually got his good ending and he didn't volunteer to blow up probably because every other time he talked about it in the game I told him no.
I had no idea Shadowheart chooses the right decision by herself holy I thought she's too devoted to Shar. Also ngl act 2 is peak in my opinion the freeing of Dame Aylin and her cutscene when she regains her armor and sword and flies in the sky spreading Selune's blessing across the cursed lands, the cutscene of Myrkul it's all so good. My favorite moments of the game.
I've romanced Shadowheart every single time and depending on how well you get to know her, you can really see the doubts swimming in her conscience regarding her character and her tenets of Shar worship. For such a twisted evil figure that Shar is, I wouldn't expect a follower to be a huge dork with an even bigger love for animals and lovely flowers.
All of Wyll's endings are so good that my headcanon takes bits of all of them lol: Wyll gets out of his Pact with Mizora, saves his father, and while he chooses to become the Blade of Avernus, he's not opposed to helping out as a Grand Duke, he just needs some time. He also becomes a Paladin at the end and not a ranger because i feel like Paladin suits him. And it makes sense! He's going to be fighting demons in Hell and coming back to do political stuff! That's some Knight type stuff!! He's a knight in shining armour even though he looks like a fiend. And he's married to Karlach and have his adopted daughter Lily Aurora as well! He's a busy young dad, but his father is there to help him
Wait a fucking second! You mean this whole time I didn't actually need to be save-scumming a DC30 persuasion check for Shart to not murder all the fucking Tiefs?
It's the sword you loot from one of the gith commanders who fights you after a visit in the Astral Prism! I only acquired Voss's sword in Act 3 after completing the House of Hope quest. Though, I think you can get Voss' sword as early as Act 1 which involves a lot of savescumming! Also fun fact: If you end Voss during this Intermediary Act 1 interaction, you get a "Very Rare" sword instead, compared to the "Legendary" one you get if you help him in Act 3.
I mean...the pairing just makes perfect sense if you think about it. The hunter and the hunted whose opposite personalities compliment each other, whose classes do the same, and who both have the same common enemy (Zariel at the end of the day) who caused both of their lives to be awful.
The two romances I really wish the game would put in if they're never really pursued by you, are definitely Karlach/Wyll and Lae'zel/Shadowheart ngl ❤ I just see them as pretty natural outcomes, with the player's influence only being here and there And yeah... the trope of being forced into rivalry only to overcome their differences over the course of the story sounds cute as hell to me lol
16:30 I mean, for Gale to pursue the Crown is kinda a bad ending, so I would not say that's a "good choice" here, but rather a hubris moment that will not end good in the long run.
Oh, I was referring to his refusal to be sacrificed since he learned to value his life as the good choice. He doesn't pursue the crown in my playthrough nevertheless, it's just the default dialogue for it! 😅 My ending still shows Gale having enough of pursuing power; I could've added the clip as well, but then again it would make the video too long so I plan to upload it separately like Shadowheart's.
@@pikajulie_art Did you bring him to the final fight in act 2, where you have to convince him not to blow up the Heart of the Absolute...? I think I always encouraged him to live and to not use the orb and I still got him offering to sacrifice himself at the end. I'm just curious what causes the difference in reaction ("I want to live and I believe we can do this" vs "I'm not sure we can do this, I want to live but I want everyone else to live more")
@@Marispider I think regardless of your choices in Act 2, Gale will always opt to sacrifice himself (assuming you brought him there). But the difference occurs in Act 3, where I was able to capture how your final choices can also affect Gale's ending dialogues atop the Netherbrain: th-cam.com/video/NxPpzl66G-Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ozD71KSAboCpQzdP
Yeah!! I was so surprised seeing that bc in my playthrough I was constantly saying "no we are NOT blowing you up, we are ALL getting through this, yes give the crown to mystra so she'll take the orb out but DON'T BLOW YOURSELF UP for some bs 'forgiveness'" and he still offered in the end. Which was a heartbreaking bittersweet scene of him basically saying "I don't want to die but I want you to die even less, this can end it all without risking more lives," I really enjoyed it, but it's still super refreshing seeing him actually angry at the protag for suggesting he sacrifice himself. Even if it'd be a noble sacrifice. I'm curious, is this about approval, or if you brought him to the act 2 fight (bc I did), or if you encouraged him to take power from the crown versus give it to Mystra, or...?
If your affinity with Gale is high enough, he will suggest the orb himself and strongly discourage the player from becoming illithid and losing their soul. From that point on you just have to not convince him otherwise.
He only does this if one of the spawn die in the battle, making it impossible to ascended. I think it can also happen if he never finds out about the ritual and all that info is sprung on him AT Cazador's
@dramasbomin for me, when i found out about what the ritual can do. Astarion immediately became interested in it wanted to go through with it. But upon accidentally killing one of the spawns during battle. He got mad and left my party after killing cazador. I guess if you don't find about the purpose of the ritual, he will most likely stop it.
@@dramasbominall the spawn survived the battle for me, but i succeeded an insight check and saw he didnt really want to ascend, he was just afraid. But then he grabbed Cazador, flung him to the floor, stabbed the nine hells out of him and made me cry with the incredible talent of Neil Newbon.
Another moment that you can have with Gale is earlier, if you let him speak to Mystra, he does agree to surrender the crown by himself if he’s your partner.
If you bring DJ Shadowheart before her parents and tell her to do what she thinks is right, she'll respond that she lost sight of what's right a long time ago and that it's easier to just serve blindly.
Astarion killing Cazador while screaming the fuck out made me cry so much. That's when I understood that, as chaotic-aligned as he is, Astarion is beautifully written and voice acted (Neil Newbon deserved that award so much last week I'm so happy for him). When I saw Astarion first, I thought he was funny, but he was only that. Apart from that, he was far too chaotic-aligned for me, and quite evil at start, so that was a "no" for me. Then, I tried to play with him many hours after act I, as I entered Rivington, and I loved it, even if he was still not my type of alignment, I already saw how could evolve a lawful evil character like Lae'zel, who clearly becomes more lawful neutral with Voss and Orpheus. But hell, when Astarion killed Cazador like that, you can feel the pain of centuries of unstoppable slavery in each strike he makes with that dagger, you can hear it in his screams, you can see who he truly is, behind that mask he created himself to never let anybody make him suffer as Cazador did. I discussed with one of my brothers, who actually can't see Astarion's face because he's thinking that he's a son of a b*tch, but to anyone who thinks that way about Astarion : Learn to listen to people, learn to see behind the mask that everyone makes to not show their problems, learn to see behind the shield which protects the anguish of anyone, anywhere. Do that, because if you don't, I can't see why you should deserve any more respect than Astarion. People who think that Astarion is just a bad guy are just dumb, it's so insensitive to think he's just evil, I can't get over that. I find these people so rude with a character who's just traumatized by centuries of doing some horrifying things against their own will, of being used like true puppets. Nobody who's shocked as much as that should be blamed for it. Nobody.
Well said. Astarion was a slave, a puppet, a mere tool for a despicable monster, and though he himself is by no means a "good" person, his time spent as a vampire spawn could not have been more of a torturous hell for him. All those years spent being used, abused, and traumatized, and to see it come full-circle with him ending his master's life by his own hand is as tragic as it is satisfying, but to hear his cries afterward is nothing short of heartbreaking. He suffered so much, far more than anyone should, and he finally wrested his freedom from his abusive master, though the scars of his torment will never truly fade.
With my wizard I mentioned I could take care of the necromancy circle. Gale then decided to pull rank. I did it without any issue and he said nothing it’s the one part that bothered me most
With Shadowhart, she will make her choice dependent on her relationship with the character and certain acts youve made. So if youve done a fairly good run and have good standings with her she'll make the choice to betray Shar. However, if youre doing a bit of an evil run and/or she has dissaproval with you, she'll follow through and kill the Nightsong.
I have a feeling Shadowheart trying to convince Gale was probably the last nail in the coffin. Standing against Mystra is one thing. Using Shar's bullshit is a *whole other.*
If you want the Astarion scene to happen while romancing him, kill one of the spawn to stop the ritual before killing Cazador. It’s what I had to do bc I had a hard time killing him xD and I could land more pre battle hits on the spawn than him. You’ll hear Astarion yell that we’ve ruined the ritual, but the fight is still going so no scene happens. Then it just immediately goes to you needing to go to the coffin and this scene plays out. Luckily the spawn that is closest to the stairs is Petras, who was already set up as being an asshole in the flophouse scene, so I feel like he was placed there on purpose for ppl wanting to got at it from that angle. This happened on my first play through as well so I had no idea there was a whole scene where you had to keep him from not doing it for a good while lol
If you bite cazador as asterion does that make him a full vampire or is that way too simple and it’s one of those “oh he has to let them feed on him” things?
The blessing from Mystra for Gale is disappeared after long rest (not permanent). Crafting the lantern by self perhasp is a best choice here. But the latern is so buggy, make the game lag somehow.
Astarion needs a companion in order to "use their eyes" to carve the runes on Cazador. This isn't him choosing the good option, this is him using the only option he has available to him.
In his origin playthrough, he can just invade one of their minds if they don’t want to help. Assuming the rules are the same, he’s choosing not to use the tadpole, whether because the ritual isn’t what he really wants or because violating your autonomy isn’t worth it, or a bit of both.
If you insight check Astarion when he asks for your help you can see that he is afraid and also blood drunk. (Might just be an option for romance) He isn’t thinking straight. If he had time to calm down and think about it I think he’d choose the good option by default. It’s too bad there isn’t a way to calm him down, then let him decide rather that actively persuade him not to. He later says he is relieved you talked him out of it. When people say ascension is the good choice for Astarion I can’t understand that. Even Astarion at the beginning of the game would be horrified to see himself acting almost the same as Cazador.
@@theredeft5319 he doesn’t need to be romanced to get that insight check and dialogue with him (although I assume the dialogue is a little different if you’re a couple). Idk how high your approval needs to be but I don’t think it’s crazy high. He spent most of that playthrough in camp bc we were both rogues so his approval was probably medium at best when we fought Cazador.
I still think my fav ending is me as the dark urge resisted oathbroken Tiefling paladin, who romanced wyll going to the hells together with wyll and Karlach that I dubed The Hot N Horny group charging into Avernus together and the 3 of us decimating shit together (presumably)
I was playing Durge and wanting to lead Shadowheart down thr dark path. I let her decide the fate of Dame and was VERY surprised to see her spared. Passing a 30 char check wasn't needed in my past playthrough lmao
A great video! Damn that shadowheart persuading Gale to spread Shars will, what a manipulator mastermind :D Also I think Larian did change the Astarion interaction? If I remember correctly, when I was playing, unless you talked Astarion oout of it, he would always decide to Ascend, sacrifice everyone and be a total prick for the rest of days.
What I love about Wyll joining Karlach in Avernus is that it shows just how selfless he is. I know people complain about Wyll being "boring," but he is a wonderful addition to the cast because he is the one character that defines heroism. Everyone is struggling with their past, carrying an immense burden with them. But Wyll has absolutely no regrets about his pact with Mizora - he outright says he would have gladly done it again if it was to keep the Sword Coast safe. He always knows just what to say around the party to raise their spirits, admits when he is wrong, and is super humble. He is the character who, in a scenario without Tav, is basically the ideal party leader. And the fact that he is willing to go with Karlach when being the Blade of Frontiers protecting the Coast is the icing on the cake. Defending Baldur's Gate and the Coast was everything he worked for. It's the reason he was willing to sign a pact with Mizora at all. To throw that aside to join Karlach just so she won't have to bear being alone is incredibly noble of him.
The moment you have to convince him to not fight Karlach at the very beginning and the little "Wyll approves" thing pops up I knew he's the legend here.
thats why on my warlock playthru i decided to play as him even tho i dont like hes character design and as i play him ill see it a lot just for the fact he is such a goated person anyway def gon go to avernus with karlach after romancing her
Even though i didn't have him in my party for a single moment in my playthrough, helping him becoming Blade of Avernus and seeing him join Karlach in Avernus was extremely saitsfying. Seeing the journey these two "mortal enemies" went through ultimately becoming each others greatest supporter in the most dangerous circumstances was my favorite storyline among so many amazing stories.
I’m not saying this would happen or a I want it to but imagine if at some points my Wyll was killed in aavernus and just how sad angry and despaired Karlach would be at that moment, not only does she lose an ally and a friend, but the only true friend she has in Avernus.
@@chainsawboy2388 well it is Wyll. He probably got downed in the first fight after missing a 90% eldritch blast
Bg3 is one of the few stories where I actually genuinely like each member of the main cast, like, they’re all great in their own ways
Exactly! They're all dear to me, I'm still in the middle of my first playthrough and I hope I give everyone their best endings.
I feel for astarion. you expect the death of your abuser to feel cathartic but so much more emotion comes surging up in you and it all bursts out and god it's finally over but god you never thought it'd feel like this. you never thought relief and grief and freedom and fear could mix like this. and the gleam of your fear has never felt duller and now there's space for you to find the part of it where you can walk forward
Big demon mommy lighting up double barrel cigar goes hard as fuck
You aint wrong, with Will there all we need is The Doomslayer here for this to make it perfect.
the ending with karlach seemed right out of hellboy, especially with the cigars
Something tells me that was the inspiration. She does kinda have the visage.
It actually makes more sense if you played as Wyll origin, since he could talk to her about his past experience with cigars.
Karlach really does give "what if Hellboy was a bit less cynical" energy. Both of them have that dry humour and get riled up when violent action is needed. And I see/invision no difference between Karlach and Hellboy when they're drunk.
Nightsong: I will fight the battle that has been waiting for me for a century
*At the battle, proceeds to crit fail her save against the mind flayer's dominate ability and spends half the battle being a liability*
That happened in my current playthrough, but I just got Gale to zap her and it broke the domination status
@@jamesmcnamara2373 She can crit fail the save, then turn around and crit Gale. That whole battle depended on Shadowheart and the world's luckiest Fire Elemental.
@@manuelvasquez4144Oh do I know it, in my first playthrough she got downed constantly 😭 and that’s BEFORE Myrkul appeared so I was down to like 1 character and Barcus fucking Wroot saved my life with his special bomb
Then in the second go around I skipped the first phase of the fight and Aylin downed Myrkul in like 2 turns
In my first playthrough I missed that there is a mindflayer. Sneaked a thief to her position. Freed her. She immediately got mind controlled and one hit my thief into Dead status.
Afterwards I killed the mindflayer and continued the fight. Was a hard one surviving with one character on 3 wounds left.
But was for sure one of my most impressive game moments ever.
I’m sorry that happened for you, she hit for like 60 damage and evaporated all the intellect devourers with her moon beam for me. Dame Aylin is a BEAST when she gets her turn.
Later in the playthrough she got the killing blow on Lorroakan and the Mind Controlled Red Dragon too! It helps when you can control her instead of relying on “ally ai” becaue they make your allies so dumb usually.
I'm so glad you made this video! The character writing in this game is so good. Shadowheart throwing the spear away from Dame Aylin is what made me start acting better in my first play through. I had been an asshole as the dark urge most of the game, but seeing her shun her goddess for the sake of what was right inspired me to change and save the world. Moments like that are incredible in this game!
Thank you! I was honestly scared when on my first playthrough when picking the "your choice" dialogues for Bae'zel and Shart. But then I thought, okay yeah I trust my companions. If they're going to be evil then I will respect that, as long as it's really what they want and they can commit to it. Bae'zel has been devoted to Vlaakith, Shart has been devoted to Shar, Gale has been devoted to Mystra...too devoted I reckon. I was ready to do the same thing for Astarion but Alas, he didn't have like a "is this truly what you want?" dialogue--which was a gripe of mine for some time.
(short rant) I often wondered why Astarion's dialogue choices were so limited between "to ascend or not" when the literal thorn on his side is a mortal vampire wannabe compared to Lae'zel and Shadowheart are literally defying their own GODS. Lae'zel and Shadowheart had autonomy--heck even Gale with Mystra! Wyll and Karlach are both being played by the Archdevil Zariel...but Astarion's Cazador is just...that. If Vellioth, Cazador's former master, were to be reincarnated from Cazador's corpse after Astarion ended him, I swear that would've been MORE EPIC than the defiance we have in game. Astarion could've had more autonomy after reading Vellioth's lessons and Cazador's journal as a prerequisite.
Anywho, yes. HAHA. I really love this game. 😂
ah, vice versa for me 🙃 I have always been a good girl and my companions made "good" choices. and now (my 5th run) I'm playing as Durge and we are reeeally bad 😈😀
@@pikajulie_art on one hand, I completely agree that Astarion has less autonomy in his choices here. But also… that’s kind of the point of his character, isn’t it? Astarion doesn’t have autonomy because he doesn’t know how to have it. He’s been beaten down and abused for centuries, any shred of free will taken from him. Astarion isn’t *actually* fighting Cazador. I mean, he is, but the real struggle isn’t that. The real struggle there is very much internal, against the way of thinking and acting he internalised through years of helplessness. Cazador was more than a god to him for two centuries: he was his puppet master. His slaver. Astarion never had autonomy as a character, so it’s kind of beautiful, in a heart breaking kind of way, that he doesn’t get that autonomy in the game mechanics either.
@@cas2762 Truly, in a sense it is beautiful! It also makes sense that he wouldn't know what to do afterwards without the player intervention. Long comment below but no worries! These were just my thoughts about the game mechanics.
I think my apprehensions with his quest is the execution of Cazador and the Szarr palace for the player. Astarion keeps on saying that yes, he fears this man that's why we have to stop him, so that feeling of fear and uncertainty also creeps through the player. Which is good so that we are familiar with the stakes. But when we got to Act 3...I dunno, I had a feeling of, "wait, this is Cazador?" We got Ketheric Thorm, Raphael, and even the three Goblin leaders who (for first time players) are like, "oh my gods we have to defeat THAT?" But for Cazador, the fanatics in the Szarr palace already shifts the tone of his quest into somewhat less threatening, compared to the dopplegangers and bhaalists we encounter and are scattered for Jaheira and Orin's quest. I was expecting more mind-controlled guards in the Szarr palace to really feel the threat. I felt that Cazador's threatening presence got overshadowed by the Sharrans, the House of Hope, the Steelwatchers, and the Bhaalists.
On the other hand, I do wish Astarion's decision could've went two ways: (a) Astarion actually decides to stop the ritual if the player has been telling him to drop the thought, or (b) Astarion infiltrates Tav's mind to see his scars, if the player wasn't able to convince him to not ascend; the player would have to pass a dice roll check instead. Astarion's Origin playthrough reveals that he can actually just infiltrate a companions' mind through the tadpole to see his scars. If Tav is not present but the other companions are for Companion Astarion's pre-ritual, we instead get either (a) Dark Justiciar Shadowheart and Minthara encouraging him to do the ritual, or (b) Wyll, Karlach, Gale, Selune Shadowheart, and Lae'zel discouraging him to do the ritual. If (b) happens, Astarion permanently leaves the party, which I find kind of inconsistent? Especially if everyone's already maxed approvals with one another--like even without Tav, the good alignment companions should have sufficed over Tav's input.
[Edit] Video reference: th-cam.com/video/lEolzSCjyGE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=L_MG72h0m-MReH9o , Timestamp: 39:37
The game was able to do this similar mechanic for Gale's ending where you need a persuasion check to sacrifice himself if the player kept telling Gale to stay (seen in video), and the other scenario is Gale is persistent to sacrifice himself because the player kept encouraging the thought. A similar thing happens for Lae'zel's quest where the player then has to convince her to return to Vlaakith if the player already helped Voss. It required a difficult dice roll check, and by the endgame, if you already have the hammer, you get a disadvantage dice roll to convince why you sided with the emperor.
Overall, yes, Astarion not knowing what to do with Cazador afterwards makes sense. Though at the same time, there were a lot of avenues where the player can tell him ascension isn't the answer:
(1) After knowing his scars through Raphael,
(2) Before visiting Baldur's Gate during Act 3 intro
(3) Meeting with Petras and Dalyria
(4) Getting a visit from Leon and Aurelia
(5) Visiting the Gur camp
(6) Seeing Sebastian and the consorts
(7) Talking to the Gur children
(8) Reading Cazador's Journal
(9) Passing the dice rolls for Vellioth's Lessons
From a game programming standpoint, the aforementioned could've been an accumulating point system for Astarion to acquire that autonomy to abandon the ritual. Seeing it happen through Shadowheart, Lae'zel, and Gale was rewarding.
So yes, eitherway, all the more to appreciate Astarion's writing because we players get so invested with this pixelated elf, that we want him to have his well-deserved happiness and freedom in the end. 💖
I’m doing a dark urge run now and decided to let her decide what to do. It’s cool to see that if the player doesn’t influence her at all, she chooses good. At least in my run.
Something interesting I found out is that for Shadowheart, her decision if you don’t say anything is based on whether Nightsong says her “frightened by wolves” line. If she does not say that line then Shadowheart will kill her.
Makes you wonder why she wouldn’t say that line. Does it depend on whether the player has learned that fear of Shadowheart’s?
I'm speculating this is when you have low-neutral approval with Shadowheart, where she doesn't open up about her fear of wolves no? Or if you didn't bring Shadowheart to any quest with a wolf?
Similar as to when Gandrel doesn't explicitly say he's hunting Astarion when Astarion himself hasn't revealed he's a vampire spawn yet to Tav.
@@pikajulie_art I know for me, I did cut in at least once trying to convince her not to and stayed quiet after but that one cut in caused nightsong to not say the line and Shadowheart killed her because of it.
Definitely isn't this shadowheart chose to spare her in my game but I only ever found out she doesn't like wolves in act 3 during her final mission
Can you provide some more explanation on how would you get to her not saying the line? Or tell if you’ve seen a video of that somewhere. I spent hours researching this and can confidently say that Shadowheart ALWAYS spares Nightsong unless Tav intrudes
I was so impressed on my first playthrough, in the way you could gently guide your companions - but if you tried to push them at the crucial point (Eg Shar's Gauntlet), they would often push back, get defensive and make "bad" choices. If you spend time helping Laezel, or Shadowheart, or Astarion, realise they can be more than their lives thus far have made them, they will make the choice for themselves. Love it!
If you let Astarion decide his future, he will ascend. So, not all of them make good choices
I chose the wrong thing with Shadowheart once something along the lines of 'don't let your goddess control you' and she killed Aylin. I scum saved though, as I do before any big events. Changed it to 'trust Shadowheart' and by that stage my relationship with her was exceptional. She turned to my Durge and asked what she should do, after telling her I can't make the choice for her she decided to spare Aylin. Then we get the epic music and cut scene.
I want to play as Astarion, however doing that means you do not get to listen to Astarion.
Do what I do, just play each and every Origin, then you get to both be him and hear him like seven times
You can hear him talk in the overworld at least.
So with Astarion, he's only hellbent on ascending if you're romancing him. What drives him most is fear, and if he really falls for Tav/Durge, he's doubly terrified of being powerless. He's easier to convince to kill Cazador if you don't romance him and are just his friend. Just a sad fact I thought I'd leave here.
Incorrect. You get this Astarion cutscene if he is alone to face Cazador. If you are there with him, you will need to convince him not to ascend.
But the comment says that as a friend it is easier to persuade him than his romance. but the roll dice the same. So how is it more difficult? The statement that it's easier for him because he doesn't have to protect his love is true. (if you agree to need an Overpowered Vampire as a partner)
@@OonalovesAstarionssimpleplan But if he's not alone against Casador, he can't ascend bc no one to help him to see marks on his back. So Astarion does the one thing he can.
@@Nanicha2007 I'm not talking about the situation at the ritual. but from the statement that it would be easier to persuade him if you didn't romance him. but the number of dice is the same. So where is it easier?
Oooh, I didn't know that. Will choose a different path during next playthrough. I only heard you shouldn't have Astarion in your party when going to Cazador's lair if you wish to resolve that without a fight.
The fuck is up with the Karlach and Wyll ending with the EPIC ELECTRIC GUITARS Holy Crap that legitimately gave me the chills!
I felt so ashamed after I spent a bit insignificant time trying to save scum manipulating Shadowheart, only to have her make the choice I wanted after putting my trust in her.
Have faith in your partners folks lol.
NO ACTUALLY I SPENT LIKE 30 MINUTES
I just threw the spear away
i spent over an hour in my first playthrough just for my friend who was in call the whole time to say if ur romancing her she just doesnt do it…
@FrankieStinks there's far more to it than that, there's a whole system with that choice referred to in the code as "nightsong points"
To be fair Shadowheart seems rather hell-bent to go through with it, so it's totally understandable to want to intervene. If Aylin hadn't revealed that little snippet of her fear of wolves, Shadowheart would have probably gone for it lol
Karlach and Wyll my eyes are tearing up that’s such a beautiful ending
It's a bit awkward, because the dialogue seems to align with Tav and not Wyll.
I always charge alongside them. Wish we got a dlc or something that’ll allow us to kick Zariel’s ass and get Karlach her original heart, or a reunion dlc where we charge in with level 12 characters going up to level 20 to fight alongside a kickass Wyll and Badass Karlach as they breach the domain of the ruler of hells
I'm okay with them running into sunset in Avernus together.
They're my favorite ship in this game and makes me sad companion to companion romance is not implemented. They're perfect for each other.
And they really don't need you there, the 6 month reunion shows that they're doing just fine the two of em.
@@KutluMizrak I agree with being sad about missing companion/companion romance but I‘m also glad it isn‘t in the game. Because now I have a great reason to play all the origins to see all romance plots by doing them in ships (Karlach and Wyll, Lae‘zel and Shart, Gale and Astarion) because god knows I‘m not strong enough to ever romance someone else besides Astarion with either Durge or Tav lmaoo
I think that scene was written with Wyll in mind, since if you were playing as him, you could have him mention to Karlach his past experience with cigars.
Every time I see the Shadowheart/Aylin scene, I have chills. Every time I start a playthrough I'm so morally grey (I have yet to have a paladin playthrough where I haven't broken my oath...). But, then, Act 2 comes and the Nightsong is free and the song. I'm suddenly making morally good choices 😂. And, the fact that...all I had to do was to keep my mouth shut this one time. I hope I can do a truly evil playthrough someday but...uhm...killing the kids...I can't do it.
I haven't played a Paladin yet but have made (mostly) good decisions in each playthrough. I love the scene in the Shadowfell with Shadowheart and Nightsong where she casts aside the Spear of Night in defiance of Shar and frees Nightsong
You can do a self-serving one actually. You can get Minthara if you totally ignore the whole Druids vs Goblins affair. If you wish to see other options, you can just play a MC who really can't be bothered with the woes of absolute strangers and have Things to do and People to get to.
In one of my campaigns, I played an urchin assassin whose Guild is everything to him, but said Guild is currently in a lot of trouble and he needs to get back as soon as possible to ensure that they weren't all dead. Everything else was but a distraction for him, and he just went a beeline.
PS:
Could just download a max exp mod, that's what I recommend for later campaigns, if you want to not be under levelled for encounters but still want to RP your own characters.
@@Fercousion i've always wondered if you play this kind of route, where do you get XP from? I get so much of mine from helping out the npc's, if you just are self serving and basically ignore most quests, how are you progressing?
I got full-body chills when she freed the Nightsong and the music started. So, so good.
I need a DLC on Karlach and Wyll's Journey on Avernus together!!!!
Well, about that.....
That should be part of the game. Sorry, but the story here doesn't seem complete.
There is that Avernus situation, there is that Bhaal is still alive, and there is a few issues here and there that need to be resolved or don't feel that they have been to their proper ends.
@@therrydiculeHow do you propose they would kill Bhaal? He is quite literally a god. As for Avernus, imo not every story needs to have a perfect beginning and end. I personally like being able to leave these things up to interpretation. Also, logistically speaking that would take lots and lots of resources just to provide closure for two characters.
Should we also have a DLC where we all follow Lae'zel in her fight against Vlaakith's tyranny?
@@eliotgierat9462
Here is why I am saying this: what did the dead three lose in all the scenarios of BG3? Nothing and that annoys me. These 3 should pay.
In DND 5, Bhaal is now a quasi-deity and not a full deity. Effectively, he is a mortal. Not an easy task, but it can be done. And Bane and Myrkul? Also, quasi-deities.
Let alone that full-blown deity can be killed as well in DND. Albeit, usually, these are more in some sadistic ends of campaigns.
However, that needs a lot of changes to the mechanics of the game. For starters, that would ask for full implementation of the DND levels. So that we can get to level 20. We can't kill Bhaal at level 12...
It would also ask to have access to the outer planes of the divine realms since this is where Bhaal is often said to live: in Khalas... So maybe there is a detour to kill a certain undead Queen of the Githiyanki and a few other things in other realms.
It would also ask for some sort of infiltration and contact with someone else because... Usually, a god can kick out someone they don't want in their realms, but they often delegate that to someone else. This is a bit like Hope's power but on steroids.
The problem is that after killing Bhaal, it is his dealing with his essence. He will eventually resurrect. But we can maybe do the trick of a certain Zombie necromancer in act 3 and put it in a jar?
@@eliotgierat9462 yes :D
This just confirms that all the companions are genuinely good people (except Minthara) and YOU are the bad influence.
Perfectly well put, lol! Larian were geniuses imo in how they managed to create playthroughs by players unaware that there is an entire spectrum of different outcomes that occur along the way, and the influence that pushes the needle towards evil or good is US, lol. The companions are our own dark mirror and it's easy to completely miss that reality lol
I love if you romance Minthara and ask her if she's happy to be a hero in the epilogue she's like "🥺No....🥺" But you can still just keep making her do good lmao
what can you say, drow matriarchs huh
Minthara isn't really THAT evil. She's a Drow. A Loth-sworn Drow, to be exact. Because she's a Paladin of an evil god, she is evil. Now, if she was a Paladin of Eilistraee, then it's a different story.
@@spynix0718 She is definitely pretty evil even after she renounced her faith in Lolth and stopped being mind controlled by the Absolute. Her personal philosophy is of the Lawful Evil variety, imo.
That said freeing her is still an overall net positive because she decides she wants to get back home to Menzoberranzan by any means neccessary, even if she is no longer welcome. So she ends up raising an army of Drow exiles and outcasts with the intent of conquering the city.
She is probably doomed to fail to be honest but hey, anything that distracts the Lolth-sworn Drow from raiding the surface can't be a bad thing.
I wish that we have an option to let Wyll decide to break the pact with Mizora or help his father on his own, not the choice to rule the city or become the blade of whatever.
That was a much more harder choice and it would help him develop his character better when the only best outcome is when we convince him to be selfish.
You can both save his dad and get him out of pact.
you can break the pact and save his father, that is the beauty of this game
@@holneer i know we can, but the character don’t.
It’s a meta knowledge only us the player know at the time.
I didn’t knew that, but I just rationalised that his fathers life doesn’t depend on pact, it depends on what Gortash decides to do with him, despite what Mizora says. So I just thought that Mizora is dramatising to get Wyll into the pact, and Gortash gains nothing from killing Ravengard, if he does such a thing he will lose precious hostage and get Wyll (and so - our team) on his bad side. The only ace Mizora had in her pocket is information about location of Ravenguard, and she doesn’t has any proof of his certain demise of we are not to make the deal, she basically says “he will perish, trust me bro”.
So I just thought that we can find him by ourselves, need just left no stone unturned in this city, speak to Gortash.
Not everything that NPCs in game say is truth, you can depend on your rationality to unwire their motives. And with the great character development in this game you can see that characters are consistent in their motivation and means, so we can safely assume that Mizora always bluff and jive, and Gortash doesn’t kill everybody just because he can
@@ИванКлименко-щ4с i mean sure, but still, it would be better to let Wyll choose for himself, to see if he see right through them or not, to let him have a proper character development, not us forcing another consequence on him.
I so wish they would make that last one the default ending for when the player character isn't around - like when one has to hide from the sun behind a box or is whisked away by one's utterly impatient divine ex-girlfriend.
What I find hilarious about the first scene is, that if you are on Avatar-Gale, there is a second point where you have to chose between serving Mystra and reaching for dark power. Shadowheart gets extremely mad at you for choosing shadow there, it took me completely by surprise.
As of patch 4, the ending of the game is bugged for a gith player. 😂 When I joined Bae'zel's cause to rebel against the Lich Queen...I didn't get on a Dragon LOL. I was still in the docks, and then apparently Karlach's ending appeared and my character is nowhere to be seen afterwards.
Also, I admit Shart is the epitome of mood swings. I love her as a companion, but I often question her reactions most of the time. 😂 Knowing she is against Avatar Gale making the shadow lamp is funny lmao. I guess the game just wanted Tav to have a right angel, left devil moment. 🤣
@@pikajulie_art Not the lamp, both she and Astarion are fine with the lamp. But with Avatar-Gale you can choose to purify one of the Thorm family members or absorb the shadow weave within them - granting you either a temporary buff or a permanent additional lvl3 spell slot. She absolutely hates you absorbing the shadow weave and her reasoning seems to be that she hates how nature suffers under the shadow curse. Astarion is the only one who thinks that particular power grab is a good idea - but he does complement you very sweetly in both cases. 😅
Could it be that, by the time you get to that moment, Shart is less Shar-aligned due to your playthrough?
@@liamwhite3522I had thought about it but no, it's pretty early on when she is still in full "Dark Justiciar is my dream job" mode.
@@anska7475 without having seen that interaction i could also imagine it being somewhat related to her being shar's cleric and disapproving of someone not sharran using her power
in my tiefling good paladin playthrough I went with Karlack and Will to Avernus to kill as many demons as possible. Satisfying.
Devils.
@@The-Great-Penguin Both
Same. It was awesome. No regrets
@@KitsuneFyora +1
knowing shadowheart CHOOSES not to kill the nightsong BREAKS ME. i always try so hard to convince her but knowing that deep down, she really does not want to do it either, she really is a selunite at heart 🥺
AND KARLACH CHOOSES TO LIVE IM SOBBING
Shadowheart literally said “fuck your goddess.”
In my experience Gale was convincing me to nuke the brain. So seeing him fight back was a shock
The Shadowheart scene is probably the most stressed and tense I have ever been watching a piece of media. My character had fallen so hard that she was willing to just… go along with it, but MAN it would have been a miserable existence for her. So when I saw the 30 check my heart just FELL. And then sHE MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE ANYWAY AND I JUST ABOUT CHEERED?! Such a well done scene.
For anyone confused about the Astarion one, I got it (my approval was Exceptional, but it only needs to be above 55 for him to listen to you as a voice of reason, not control) and a successful insight check shows that he is afraid, but doesnt really want it. He then kills Cazador. I had all 6 of his spawn siblings survive, and he released the 7000 into the underdark, he chose to be honest with the Gur, and he didn't get annoyed at me for helping him end the Rite. He was relieved straight away. I would say this is the best ending for him, especially after the epilogue where he is so happy ❤
@arthurianmaiden aye but the point being that its done AFTER realising what he actually wants is safety and security, not to be a powerful vampire.
You can get Astarion's golden ending without leaving him alone?? (Yes you still have to convince him but he's more willing to listen) I just want to see him kill Cazador, free the others and be there to comfort him. He suffered so much and killing Cazador was hard!! Seeing him break down sobbing made me want to hug him and offer him a cloak or something, just so he wouldn't be alone and miserable AND half naked...
And after that we can steal anything not nailed down let Astarion do as he wished with it (give the spoils to the Spawn, keep it, destroy it, or sell it to use the money himself. My Tav is typically pretty good aligned but she'd be the first to tell Astarion to take everything)
I'm curious as to how he comes to the decision of saving the spawn or killing them. On both of my playthroughs, I convinced him not to do the ritual but gave him the choice on what to do with the spawn, and he killed them both times.
I always do the insight check, and then the persuasion roll that follows. At that stage we are fully romanced, my Durge is aware of who he is and they have vowed to save one another. He is rolling in adrenaline and bloodlust at that stage, it makes sense that he would crave that power. All he wants is safety, and to protect his lover as they had been doing.
When you tell him that it's not okay, that this isn't who he is... The relief that washed over his face was insane. I sobbed the first time I finished this quest, his screams as he was done, the graveyard scene that followed... I had to stop for the rest of the night. I think they only ending to a companion quest where I didn't cry was Gale's and that was just because I felt so proud. Karlach and Wyll was full ugly sobbing, Lae'zel flying off on her red dragon. I love this game, and I honestly can't get enough of it.
When Astarion stabs Cazador you can feel his pain and fear going away with each stab.
wyll following karlach to avernus just to save her life makes me so emotional, maybe because they’re my two faves. It’s a bittersweet end (or at least it was until that recent patch which implied they’re working on a way for her infernal engine to exist outside the hells), but it’s fitting in the moment
There's no real way to let Astarion make his own choice. By that i mean there no dialogue option for it. This version only happens if one or more of the spawns die in the battle, making it impossible for him to ascended.
I think it can also happen if he never finds out about the ritual and all that info is sprung on him AT Cazador's.
Probably because he doesn't have time to *convince* himself he needs the ritual. He's a lot more genuinely affected by the prisoners still being alive in that version. He doesn't say, "well they have to be sacrificed 🤷♂️" he says, "I'm gonna be sick".
it also happens if there's nobody there, because there's nobody who could show him the sigils on his back
Yeah I just entirely missed Astarion meeting Raphael so he never learned what the marks on his back were about lol
I see so many ppl who haven't actually played the game or dug into companions storylines far enough to discover that every single companion has a range of ways their personality can present themselves over the course of the game. The only companion that never shows an ounce of potential and then eventual heroism, goodness, empathy, and redemption is Minthara. EVERY other companion proves capable of sacrifice, kindness, and ultimately heroic selflessness. Basically, they'll reflect what biases and prejudices you do, and those which you invest into them, either selfishness and evil, or selflessness and good.
In her own way Minthara can be "nice". While she will never be as friendly as Gale (man went from neutral to liked before Act 2) she does have some moments where she does show some compassion. There's a dialogue between the two where Gale asks her about some empty bottles if she's in a relationship with Tav. Her reply isn't traditionally sweet, but by comparison to other Drow or just her family, it's understandable that on the off chance she visits home with Tav, it helps if they have a tolerance to poison.
@@twofacedmgrim Do companions often comment on the player's romance? I know the lines exist but I have never heard them.
th-cam.com/video/aF0hkB1A1NU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=zvYTOVKavz3m6Vke@@anska7475
Really? I got minthara the none evil way (I still have Wyll and Karlach) and I was really hoping I could redeem her.
Minthara is there. There is now a way to get her without killing the Tieflings. And apparently she does approve of some heroic things such as helping Wulbren.
"But life is for the living. And I saw - gods!" damnit Lairion you weren't supposed to write something this fucking good.
on my playthrough gale actually insisted a lot on letting him go to explode the netherbrain himself. I have tried talking him out of it but he kept insisting. So I told him to do whatever he liked and he went up by himself.
Wyll and Karlach, besties of all time 😭 I love them
I think Astarion only makes the good decision when alone because you aren't there to be his eyes in order to replicate the runes on his back. With the path to power he craves out of reach, the only other choice he can make is to make sure Cazador doesn't get it.
As for Karlach, I haven't tested other situations myself, but if Wyll isn't there and you aren't romancing her, she will opt to die right there.
i was not romancing her but i had a good relationship with her, ie approved every single decision i made the entire playthrough, i wanted to romance shadowheart but it was my first playthrough and i forgot to finish her questline bcz i felt like i was being rushed in act 3. when Dammon broke the bad news to her i told her then and there i won't let her die and to not even think about it, and once i got to the dock scene, Wyll was Duke, i was still able to tell her we are going to Avernus together and she still agreed to go with me.
some have achieved a good Astarion outcome where he chooses. I don't know how they did it, but it can be done
What I tried in my playthrough is Astarion visiting the Gur Camp solo; unfortunately, patch 4 bugged the interaction when you save Gandrel (which I did in my playthrough). The conversation gets cut off where I didn't see Astarion choosing to save the Gur children.
This should be the outcome: th-cam.com/video/Jc52srxveS0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=f0Cohmlo2QiTOnNQ
On one hand, the earliest interaction where he decides on his own was when he just outright sinks a knife onto Gandrel (pre-vampire reveal). I reviewed my past footages and I realized most of the early choices were Tav choosing for Astarion. D:
[Spoilers below]
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Lae'zel gets to choose her own path when Vlaakith visits the camp in Act 3. Shadowheart also chooses on her own what to do in the House of Grief upon meeting her parents. Gale decides the fate of his life on his own. I do wished Astarion made his choice on his own when he faced Cazador; some pointed out that Origin Astarion can actually use the tadpole on his own to remember the scars, so I'm not sure why his autonomy isn't applicable when he is Tav's companion. :c
Edit: I have romanced Astarion for three playthroughs, made compilations, and reviewed my game footages. XD The only scene I remember where he exerts autonomy with Tav is if you let Astarion respond to Ulma either after ending or freeing the spawns. Romance-wise, he is pretty persistent with Tav not becoming an Illithid, but it's not part-part of his personal quest though like Bae'zel's and Shart's.
you just tell him what he already knows: that he would lose himself and that he can be better. it involves an insight check and seeing the prisoners before the fight obviously, but otherwise just let him choose.
Yeah, but it required a dice roll though. :<
It's still a Pass or Fail thing game-wise.
Lae'zel, Shadowheart, Karlach, Wyll, and Gale didn't need a dice roll to choose on their own.
I'm doing some tests of this on my current playthrough. I'll report back if I turn up any conclusive results. or, I suppose, at least interesting. because Astarion has always made the "good" choice on his own for me, and I'm trying to understand why so many believe he *won't*.
@@pikajulie_art hm? I've always been forced to tell Wyll what to do. I presumed it was a sign that he wasn't confident in his own decision-making because of his error with Karlach.
I really hope Karlach and Wyll show up as legacy characters in BG4, it would be awesome to travel to Avernus and see these tight knit friends at the head of a newly established devil hierarchy. I'm sure they'd have entertaining quests and valuable rewards to give to the party that's having a dreadful tumble through the hells.
there will be no bg4 you know..
I was so proud of Lae’zel I save and reload that scene to watch it a few times.
God damn it for a game I haven’t even played yet it knows how to pull at the heart strings
I think you missed one. Shadowheart will also ask Tav for their opinion on what to do with her parents. I let her choose and she chose to save them.
its a shame that choice depends solely on if you get a very specific reaction/dialogue in the lower city that appears to be glitched. Shadowheart will only choose to save the aprents if you get that short conversation about the smells of the city, which seems to trigger randomly or not at all for most people, even if you give SH the noblestalk, find her graffiti, put a night orchid on the grave she interacts with at the graveyard etc.
There is also the part where I say nothing to Lae'zel when Vlaakith visits the camp, and yes also this part where I tell Shadowheart what to do with her parents. I have them recorded but it would make my video around 40 minutes long; I also had this video uploaded after 3 hours before realizing I forgot these scenes so I just gave up. 😂
@@mari-anne Oh, I thought it depended on what you did with Viconia! Interesting.
@@anska7475 you'd think so but no. people have tested and the small number of people who got her to choose to save the parents had the smells of the city convo. after that, killing or sparing viconia had no affect on sh's choice
@@pikajulie_art can you still post the shadowheart video if you got her to choose to save her parents on her own please? I don't think anyone has actually posted that specific video on youtube yet.
It breaks my heart but also makes sense that Astarion only ascends if you are there.
You're the first person in 200 years to give him a choice and having you by his side probably scares him enough to go through with it.
Absolutely insanely good writing.
I get fucking chills everytime i see aylins cutscene
The moment the music starts gets me every time. So good 😭
I feel like it makes a lot of sense that Astarion would be the only character that can't/won't choose the good option for himself.
With all the other traumatized companions (by that I mean Shart, Lae'zel and Gale specifically) they didn't KNOW they were being deceived, manipulated, tortured or used up until relatively shortly before their choices. Lae'zel JUST found out her goddess had been lying to her, as did Shart (hell Shart didn't remember much of anything prior to the mindflayers anyway). Gale wasn't so much tortured as being groomed and then blamed for his bad decision which isn't really something where you would look at the person doing it to you as a tormentor without a lot of prior healing. All of them had just gotten their faith broken, so it makes sense that they'd be bitter, and encouraged enough to make a conscious choice to forsake their gods. Astarion didn't have that. He KNEW Cazador was a monster from day one, knew he was being used, manipulated and tortured. And for no reason too. The only thing that he figures out is that, actually, the torture had reason, it was just very in line for Cazador being a sadistic bastard which was hardly news to him. So from this perspective, for Astarion alone nothing changed. His tormentor is still basically the same monster he's always been, he still uses him and the only reason he's had the power to flee was through the tadpole which for all intents and purposes he needs to get rid of or he dies. Therefore the only actual out he has is usurping Cazadors ritual. The other characters all had genuine alternatives. Astarion thinking his only real out is ascending makes sense at that point in the story. Because he wasn't able to break free as just a spawn, so why would he be able to STAY free as just a spawn?
Genius writing in my opinion. All this is just my interpretation of course, but I feel like it fits his writing and character quite nicely, no matter how much Tav has redeemed him up until that point. (Can't really snap away two centuries of torment in a couple months I'd wager)
im doing a mostly evil playthrough, in all others i managed to do the persuasion check to stop shadowheart from becoming a justiciar, but this run i decided to let her handle it and was surprised when she threw away the spear herself with no intervention from my tav. I love when games do this, just cause one of your abilities lets you pass a check or gives you a new dialogue option doesnt mean its the best one to choose.
Oh man. I feel silly now. I kinda figured you HAD to persuade them so they'd make the good decisions. The thought never really occurred to me that if i let them make their own decisions it was even possible they'd do the right thing.
(Aside from a couple of plot points where they had previously expressed that what they wanted lined up with my thoughts)
My only thing with Gale at the end is if you do his quest and encourage good he’ll volunteer to use the orb at the end. You don’t even have to bring it up.
In my game, I think because I brought him to the Act2 fight and convinced him not to blow up then Tav needed to convince him for that ending.
I got done his quest and encouraged and eventually got his good ending and he didn't volunteer to blow up probably because every other time he talked about it in the game I told him no.
I had no idea Shadowheart chooses the right decision by herself holy I thought she's too devoted to Shar. Also ngl act 2 is peak in my opinion the freeing of Dame Aylin and her cutscene when she regains her armor and sword and flies in the sky spreading Selune's blessing across the cursed lands, the cutscene of Myrkul it's all so good. My favorite moments of the game.
I've romanced Shadowheart every single time and depending on how well you get to know her, you can really see the doubts swimming in her conscience regarding her character and her tenets of Shar worship.
For such a twisted evil figure that Shar is, I wouldn't expect a follower to be a huge dork with an even bigger love for animals and lovely flowers.
All of Wyll's endings are so good that my headcanon takes bits of all of them lol: Wyll gets out of his Pact with Mizora, saves his father, and while he chooses to become the Blade of Avernus, he's not opposed to helping out as a Grand Duke, he just needs some time. He also becomes a Paladin at the end and not a ranger because i feel like Paladin suits him. And it makes sense! He's going to be fighting demons in Hell and coming back to do political stuff! That's some Knight type stuff!! He's a knight in shining armour even though he looks like a fiend. And he's married to Karlach and have his adopted daughter Lily Aurora as well! He's a busy young dad, but his father is there to help him
Wait a fucking second! You mean this whole time I didn't actually need to be save-scumming a DC30 persuasion check for Shart to not murder all the fucking Tiefs?
Karlachs ending feels like something out of DMC
2:08 I’m kinda surprised Voss wants to help us after we stole his sword lol
It's the sword you loot from one of the gith commanders who fights you after a visit in the Astral Prism! I only acquired Voss's sword in Act 3 after completing the House of Hope quest. Though, I think you can get Voss' sword as early as Act 1 which involves a lot of savescumming!
Also fun fact: If you end Voss during this Intermediary Act 1 interaction, you get a "Very Rare" sword instead, compared to the "Legendary" one you get if you help him in Act 3.
Karlach and Wyll is canon!! 🫶❤️🔥🫶❤️🔥🫶❤️🔥🫶❤️🔥 that music hits. Hard🤘🤘
OMG! Now I ship Karlach and Wyll SO FREAKING HARD!
I mean...the pairing just makes perfect sense if you think about it. The hunter and the hunted whose opposite personalities compliment each other, whose classes do the same, and who both have the same common enemy (Zariel at the end of the day) who caused both of their lives to be awful.
The two romances I really wish the game would put in if they're never really pursued by you, are definitely Karlach/Wyll and Lae'zel/Shadowheart ngl ❤
I just see them as pretty natural outcomes, with the player's influence only being here and there
And yeah... the trope of being forced into rivalry only to overcome their differences over the course of the story sounds cute as hell to me lol
Well , Astarion doesn't have much of a choice. Without anyone to help him to "see" the scars, there is no way he could complete the rite.
Some of these scenes they will make other choices depending on their relationship with the character and other choices you have made in the game.
Man Wyll would make a great Plane watcher paladin
Karlach choice was the most badass ending they basically become doom slayer
It'd be cool if we get a DLC Expansion where we travel thru the 9 layers of He'll to save Karlach, basically a Dante's Inferno story.
Last thing I need to see is Zariel squeezing enemies out of her boobs bruh 💀
Lol the tail clipping through the cape at the end
Respectfully Shadowheart & I love you to bits, you're not helping! 😭
16:30 I mean, for Gale to pursue the Crown is kinda a bad ending, so I would not say that's a "good choice" here, but rather a hubris moment that will not end good in the long run.
Oh, I was referring to his refusal to be sacrificed since he learned to value his life as the good choice. He doesn't pursue the crown in my playthrough nevertheless, it's just the default dialogue for it! 😅 My ending still shows Gale having enough of pursuing power; I could've added the clip as well, but then again it would make the video too long so I plan to upload it separately like Shadowheart's.
@@pikajulie_art Did you bring him to the final fight in act 2, where you have to convince him not to blow up the Heart of the Absolute...? I think I always encouraged him to live and to not use the orb and I still got him offering to sacrifice himself at the end. I'm just curious what causes the difference in reaction ("I want to live and I believe we can do this" vs "I'm not sure we can do this, I want to live but I want everyone else to live more")
@@Marispider I think regardless of your choices in Act 2, Gale will always opt to sacrifice himself (assuming you brought him there). But the difference occurs in Act 3, where I was able to capture how your final choices can also affect Gale's ending dialogues atop the Netherbrain: th-cam.com/video/NxPpzl66G-Y/w-d-xo.htmlsi=ozD71KSAboCpQzdP
Nice to see, that my choices as Astarion was the same, which he choose, when he is alone with Cazador.
You might be the only person I've seen who leaves helmets visible lol
2:06
Voss: "Is that my silver sword that was stolen?"
Lae'zel: 👁👄👁
I tried sending Wyll after Karlach on his own, because I couldn't bring myself to end her with him - and he saves her, without any intervention.
omg 16:17? im so proud of him yes get angy yes fight to live!!
Yeah!! I was so surprised seeing that bc in my playthrough I was constantly saying "no we are NOT blowing you up, we are ALL getting through this, yes give the crown to mystra so she'll take the orb out but DON'T BLOW YOURSELF UP for some bs 'forgiveness'" and he still offered in the end. Which was a heartbreaking bittersweet scene of him basically saying "I don't want to die but I want you to die even less, this can end it all without risking more lives," I really enjoyed it, but it's still super refreshing seeing him actually angry at the protag for suggesting he sacrifice himself. Even if it'd be a noble sacrifice.
I'm curious, is this about approval, or if you brought him to the act 2 fight (bc I did), or if you encouraged him to take power from the crown versus give it to Mystra, or...?
@@Marispider based on how his quest works i think it's gotta be from encouraging his godhood
Karlacht and Wyll going to Avernus to slay fiends is pretty metal.
I didn't realize any of the other characters could volunteer to go to Avernus with Karlach, not just Tav!! That's awesome!!!
Wyll did in both my runs. Apparently Shadowheart can aswell if you're playing as Wyll.
If your affinity with Gale is high enough, he will suggest the orb himself and strongly discourage the player from becoming illithid and losing their soul. From that point on you just have to not convince him otherwise.
Astarion certainly made the good choice to pose naked for your thumbnail here lol
I love Karlach, just wish she had a happier ending 😢❤
Karlach and wyll having the linkin park ending music is really spectacular
I think that ending scene with wyll and karlach is when you play a origin run as wyll.
Nope. Because Wyll is voiced when he intervene. The Tav was a Gith.
Astarion is the most surprising out of these.
He only does this if one of the spawn die in the battle, making it impossible to ascended. I think it can also happen if he never finds out about the ritual and all that info is sprung on him AT Cazador's
@dramasbomin for me, when i found out about what the ritual can do. Astarion immediately became interested in it wanted to go through with it. But upon accidentally killing one of the spawns during battle. He got mad and left my party after killing cazador. I guess if you don't find about the purpose of the ritual, he will most likely stop it.
@@dramasbominall the spawn survived the battle for me, but i succeeded an insight check and saw he didnt really want to ascend, he was just afraid. But then he grabbed Cazador, flung him to the floor, stabbed the nine hells out of him and made me cry with the incredible talent of Neil Newbon.
wow, it's actually incredible to know that if no one's watching, Astarion just chooses to do the good thing on his own.
LMAO!!! If Gale would have turned on me at that point, we would have wiped so damn fast. My Gale was a monster.
13:26
Well, well, well... I gained respect for Astarion there.
Another moment that you can have with Gale is earlier, if you let him speak to Mystra, he does agree to surrender the crown by himself if he’s your partner.
If you bring DJ Shadowheart before her parents and tell her to do what she thinks is right, she'll respond that she lost sight of what's right a long time ago and that it's easier to just serve blindly.
Astarion killing Cazador while screaming the fuck out made me cry so much. That's when I understood that, as chaotic-aligned as he is, Astarion is beautifully written and voice acted (Neil Newbon deserved that award so much last week I'm so happy for him). When I saw Astarion first, I thought he was funny, but he was only that. Apart from that, he was far too chaotic-aligned for me, and quite evil at start, so that was a "no" for me. Then, I tried to play with him many hours after act I, as I entered Rivington, and I loved it, even if he was still not my type of alignment, I already saw how could evolve a lawful evil character like Lae'zel, who clearly becomes more lawful neutral with Voss and Orpheus.
But hell, when Astarion killed Cazador like that, you can feel the pain of centuries of unstoppable slavery in each strike he makes with that dagger, you can hear it in his screams, you can see who he truly is, behind that mask he created himself to never let anybody make him suffer as Cazador did. I discussed with one of my brothers, who actually can't see Astarion's face because he's thinking that he's a son of a b*tch, but to anyone who thinks that way about Astarion :
Learn to listen to people, learn to see behind the mask that everyone makes to not show their problems, learn to see behind the shield which protects the anguish of anyone, anywhere. Do that, because if you don't, I can't see why you should deserve any more respect than Astarion. People who think that Astarion is just a bad guy are just dumb, it's so insensitive to think he's just evil, I can't get over that. I find these people so rude with a character who's just traumatized by centuries of doing some horrifying things against their own will, of being used like true puppets. Nobody who's shocked as much as that should be blamed for it. Nobody.
Well said. Astarion was a slave, a puppet, a mere tool for a despicable monster, and though he himself is by no means a "good" person, his time spent as a vampire spawn could not have been more of a torturous hell for him. All those years spent being used, abused, and traumatized, and to see it come full-circle with him ending his master's life by his own hand is as tragic as it is satisfying, but to hear his cries afterward is nothing short of heartbreaking. He suffered so much, far more than anyone should, and he finally wrested his freedom from his abusive master, though the scars of his torment will never truly fade.
"I am the milk man. My milk is delicious" 7:40
With my wizard I mentioned I could take care of the necromancy circle. Gale then decided to pull rank. I did it without any issue and he said nothing it’s the one part that bothered me most
With Shadowhart, she will make her choice dependent on her relationship with the character and certain acts youve made. So if youve done a fairly good run and have good standings with her she'll make the choice to betray Shar. However, if youre doing a bit of an evil run and/or she has dissaproval with you, she'll follow through and kill the Nightsong.
I have a feeling Shadowheart trying to convince Gale was probably the last nail in the coffin.
Standing against Mystra is one thing. Using Shar's bullshit is a *whole other.*
I let everyone made their own choices and it was actually good playtrough.
If you want the Astarion scene to happen while romancing him, kill one of the spawn to stop the ritual before killing Cazador. It’s what I had to do bc I had a hard time killing him xD and I could land more pre battle hits on the spawn than him. You’ll hear Astarion yell that we’ve ruined the ritual, but the fight is still going so no scene happens. Then it just immediately goes to you needing to go to the coffin and this scene plays out. Luckily the spawn that is closest to the stairs is Petras, who was already set up as being an asshole in the flophouse scene, so I feel like he was placed there on purpose for ppl wanting to got at it from that angle.
This happened on my first play through as well so I had no idea there was a whole scene where you had to keep him from not doing it for a good while lol
Oh no, I let Karlach eat the friggin tadpole, but this is sooo much better!
Proud of my favorite weirdos ❤
Lae'zal and Voss scene. Githyanki Tav standing there as Voss praises Lae'zal's choice like "What am I? Chopped liver."
If you bite cazador as asterion does that make him a full vampire or is that way too simple and it’s one of those “oh he has to let them feed on him” things?
Unfortunately, duke ravengaurd bugged out of existence in my playthrough after saving him so i never got to enclose wyll's story.
So, Karlach is basically Doom Guy? I didn’t think I could love her any more that I already did!
Soome of these events are changed by choices or interactions earlier in the game, not just your approval rating
The blessing from Mystra for Gale is disappeared after long rest (not permanent). Crafting the lantern by self perhasp is a best choice here. But the latern is so buggy, make the game lag somehow.
Astarion needs a companion in order to "use their eyes" to carve the runes on Cazador.
This isn't him choosing the good option, this is him using the only option he has available to him.
In his origin playthrough, he can just invade one of their minds if they don’t want to help. Assuming the rules are the same, he’s choosing not to use the tadpole, whether because the ritual isn’t what he really wants or because violating your autonomy isn’t worth it, or a bit of both.
If you insight check Astarion when he asks for your help you can see that he is afraid and also blood drunk. (Might just be an option for romance) He isn’t thinking straight. If he had time to calm down and think about it I think he’d choose the good option by default. It’s too bad there isn’t a way to calm him down, then let him decide rather that actively persuade him not to. He later says he is relieved you talked him out of it. When people say ascension is the good choice for Astarion I can’t understand that. Even Astarion at the beginning of the game would be horrified to see himself acting almost the same as Cazador.
@@theredeft5319 he doesn’t need to be romanced to get that insight check and dialogue with him (although I assume the dialogue is a little different if you’re a couple). Idk how high your approval needs to be but I don’t think it’s crazy high. He spent most of that playthrough in camp bc we were both rogues so his approval was probably medium at best when we fought Cazador.
@arthurianmaiden yes, I understand. I was just pointing out that even with other options on the table, he can and sometimes does choose not to ascend.
Shut up gale. Make me my useless moon lantern.
I still think my fav ending is me as the dark urge resisted oathbroken Tiefling paladin, who romanced wyll going to the hells together with wyll and Karlach that I dubed The Hot N Horny group charging into Avernus together and the 3 of us decimating shit together (presumably)
Thank you for the video! Our FRIENDS ;v;
Why do these fucking good choices all make me cry. Karlach especially. I told my husband I’d leave him for her… he understood “because same.”
I sad that I didn’t save Karlach… she turned into a mindflayer on my first run
I was playing Durge and wanting to lead Shadowheart down thr dark path. I let her decide the fate of Dame and was VERY surprised to see her spared.
Passing a 30 char check wasn't needed in my past playthrough lmao
A great video! Damn that shadowheart persuading Gale to spread Shars will, what a manipulator mastermind :D Also I think Larian did change the Astarion interaction? If I remember correctly, when I was playing, unless you talked Astarion oout of it, he would always decide to Ascend, sacrifice everyone and be a total prick for the rest of days.