Pleas From Churches Fall on Deaf Ears in Alabama-West Florida Conference of the UMC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ต.ค. 2024
- In previous coverage on Alabama-West Florida, we have noted a lot of strangeness. It would now seem that, despite past assurances made, the conference is entrapping all of their congregations whether or not they want to remain part of The United Methodist Church. In this segment, I read over a couple of short articles and then watch footage from this recent session of their conference.
Links:
"Alabama Supreme Court upholds dismissal of UMC disaffiliation lawsuit brought by 48 Methodist churches" by Caleb Taylor in 1819 News - 1819news.com/n...
"‘Let us leave’: United Methodist churches still blocked from disaffiliating in Alabama-West Florida Conference" by Greg Garrison on AL.com - www.al.com/new...
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I was just pulled back into my faith over the last several months, after 20 years of walking outside the light, and found myself returning to the United Methodist Church... I immediately felt like something was off, and I went I to research mode. The dirty tactics I discovered were appalling. Then I discovered the Global Methodist Church and found a great congregation, which I'm being accepted as a member to next week. I pray the UMC re-finds their way, but I'm not holding my breath.
Our church in VA just made it out before 2553 was over. We were also encouraged by pastors and our bishop to wait and see what happened at General conference. Many of us were ready to walk with or without the property, but we didn't have to in the end. The UMC has proven that it is not united around agreed doctrine or ecclesiastical documents (Discipline) or promises. The leadership will have its way without regard to good faith practices, mercy, or grace. It is a sad revelation.
I hear you loud and clear. VA Annual conference saw the wave of dissafileations coming 2nd round and conspired with local pastors and clergy to stop the process using church council committees and parlamentry proceedure. I have to wonder if the VA Anual Conference comitted criminal acts of fraud, racheteering, and extortion for the money they forced churches to pay that wanted out. Although 25% of the churches left, many more would have left had there not been such manipulation and road blocks. The process required a committed group to push the process forward and the Anual Conference did everything possible to rachet up the dramma.
Do you have a link to bishop sue encouraging you to wait?
I reviewed a VA info session and they were clear. No clearer exit than now. They said another disaffiliation process would be developed but not at these terms. So Ga passed legislation saying the churches can leave on 2024. Your church had to make a go / no go decision.
Completely different scenario.
The games played by the liberals which have ended with conservatives having the choice between faith and physical church could be matched. If you know in your heart where you stand don't be forthcoming all the time. Rather try to become a delegate to the various lay/clergy meetings and simply vote against the "woke" of the day.
There are going to be a whole lot of empty buildings with "UMC" signs on the front of them rather than working out some sort of amicable way to leave and thrive.
There already are. Other conferences are going in and suddenly closing up smaller churches (literally) instead of letting them leave. The UMC has become the very evil they previously preached against. It's now an apostate organization.
So true. All across the US, small churches with conservative members are closing since the General Conference. Most are going to churches such as the PCA, the SBC, or the GMC. Many of those small churches couldn't afford to disaffiliate.
I believe that individuals will simply leave their church (building) and go elsewhere eventually.
I’m not sure I would handle the situation near as well as these men. Shame on this Bishop Graves.
It is amazing to me to see that the reason I left ten years ago is the same reason many UMC congregations want to leave now. That is, if you agree to the rules, you have to follow them later. So called progressives agree to something and then bail when it does not for in their favor. Rules for me, but not for thee. Nothing is more destructive of trust than this. The term "UMC" will become the new word for churches that commit suicide veery rapidly.
Unfortunately that is part and parcel with progressive thinking. The means justify the ends even if that entails incoherent arguments and a bevy of double standards.
The whole UMC is propped up by late boomer money and death bequests. There's a finite number of us oldies around, and the wilder it gets, the more will leave or stop supporting the circus financially.
look where being polite and respecting authority gets you!
UMC wants to plant churches in cities to get in on all the hot decline action that the Episcopal Church is enjoying. There’s more than enough there to share between them.
Thank you so much for covering this. I am so ashamed to call this my home conference, for a little while longer. Please continue to cover the Al/WFla Conference.
I have dealt with Bishop Graves personally. I was part of the Alabama West Fla. He will lie to your face. He started out as a good bishop. But somewhere he turned and became towing the line of the National Church. He is not a good bishop.
Completely agree. Dealt with his DS’s before as well and they are of the same ilk.
The UMC: Open Minds, Open Doors, Open Wallets.
With the way this whole disaffiliation process was handled, is it any wonder that institutional churches are finding it more difficult to survive, much less prosper? This whole mess looks like something you might expect to view within the business world, not the Spirit in-dwelt Bride of Christ. In my opinion, if there’s not radical transformation within the institutional church, here in America, it will most certainly cease to exist. It’s time to rethink church.
How I understand you! Let me just to add that this is not just an American problem. It's global, or at least European as well. Here we have the same problem in southern Europe with... The Roman Catholic Church. By and large only those 75+ would go weekly. The youngsters done the Catechism will go elsewhere... People are leaving in droves... Maybe here in the RCC most of the problem lies on the hypocrisy of the protection given up to all those pedos in the high Altars... Whatever else declines over declines seem to be our sad fate for the foreseeable future... I'm quite pessimistic. At my late 40's I'm regularly among the 10 youngest on my rural area Catholic community. If nothing changes we'll be done in less than 10 year gone the current crowd...
David Graves came from my former Conference Holston. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
For sure.
Bingo-the UMC clearly is trying to maintain the assets. They (UMC) realize that their membership is shrinking rapidly, which means the incoming revenue will shrink as well. To offset that fall in revenue, they have decided to not allow anymore churches to disaffiliate, despite the fact that they previously told concerned churches to wait until after GC, implying that their desire to disaffiliate would still be honored. However, the exodus of churches has been so vast that UMC leadership is afraid that they won't be able to continue paying their own salaries,. And they have behaved accordingly to try to prevent that from happening. How duplicitous! Not only have they departed from scripture regarding sexuality, but they have openly lied to their members who tried to be loyal! Very sad that these supposed Christian leaders should sink to this level of immorality. My prediction: the UMC will continue to shrink, whether they allow churches to disaffiliate or not, to the point that it will become an insignificant shadow of its former self. All the money in the world does not atone for lying to your own members. Who in their right mind would join a church that has openly deceived its' own faithful? Plus, this is just another nail in the coffin of the traditional top-down structure that so many Protestant churches have abided by for decades. Finally, its' a major black eye for Christianity as a whole, in an already rapidly secularizing world.
Eventually, folks will leave or cave. Either way, this is a mess. Makes no sense having to talk folks into staying with a denomination that has moved away from their own traditional teachings.
Most folks are not leaving angry, leaving a bit disgusted. The angry folks I saw were the ones who didn't want to leave the UMC. They got right nasty. They go to church elsewhere now, I think.
So if maintaining assets to liquidate is the goal, why not let the churches go and buy back their property. That serves their goal, right? I think it's just vindictive at this point.
It is obvious: they want your money, but do not give a hoot about your welfare. Walk out, and take your pocketbook with you !
Jeff, for another example of UMC dishonesty check out the details of So Ga conference disaffilation policy. While (for now) they are still allowing churches to leave thru the end of this year, they crammed down the timeline so tight it makes leaving much more difficult. Graves called for a "dead time" period of discernment from around the middle of last year through the end of general conference. During this time no meetings with DS, or church vote, could be held. My former church was supposed to have it's required initial meeting with DS in October '23, then a vote early Jan '24, but because of the dead time, they are now on the following timeline: initial meeting in June of this year, vote in July, special called annual conference to ratify departures in August, and monies paid/process completed by end of September. Everything UMC does is dishonest, I have never seen a more dishonest and deceitful organization, and I am a lawyer so you can imagine the territory that covers.
I don't think that's quite right, Luke. The So Ga leadership has, to date, been honest and fair with the churches. Really, they're the only ones that I've seen that have done this the right way from the start. They gave everyone a chance to leave as GC19 asked them to do. They asked everyone to stay and make an informed decision as that was the original plan. A lot of ACs weren't willing to do that. And places like QUMC stayed. Personally, being able to see what the attitude of people in Atlanta is, I'm pretty proud of how the So GA conference, and QUMC in particular, navigated this whole affair. No doubt, it's tough sledding. But at the end of day, y'all have more votes in the church for leaving now than you would have last year. The timeline is fair if you've got the votes to leave and the money. I think the churches should pay off their pension liability. If I was a delegate, I would reward the churches that stayed by not making them pay the one year apportionment (I'd make you pay off last year's though).
My parents absolutely want y'all to stay. But I can for sure see the other side of it. But the leadership in So Ga has stuck with what they said and are giving all the churches the choice to leave under 2549. They haven't played games like Al/W Fl to delay the vote to 2025. The conference trustees IMO are fulfilling their fiduciary responsibility to make sure that churches do get to where they need to be. But that doesn't make this any easier of a decision for anybody. General Conference was what it was and I'm sure the leadership of the So Ga conference was hoping for something a lot different.
Chad, good to talk to you. To me, there are different levels of dishonesty, but just because one Annual Conference acts less dishonestly than another Annual Conference, doesn't mean the first AC has acted appropriately or honestly. It is a letter of the law vs spirit of the law scenario. If an Annual Conference follows the letter of the law, but uses every other mechanism available to stack the deck against churches leaving (moving timelines on the sly, horror stories about how bad it is outside the UMC, claiming any alternative view is "misinformation", a needlessly confusing process that paralyzes people, etc.) then, while the technical requirements of the law have been met, it isn't offered in a spirit of good faith and fair dealing. I would expect that a secular organization would press every advantage it had, but it's surprising coming from a church. If the UMC was confident in their product and vision they would not try to rig the game, just come up with a simple, cheap process that errs on the side of letting churches out, then let the chips fall where they may. Under that scenario they would at least know that any churches remaining truly believed in the new mission of the UMC and were not kept from leaving due to the quirks of the process.
Luke, I'm not the lawyer here, but...this is how I see it. Graves is not a friend. He's not from the So Ga AC. The SE Jurisdiction sent him. I'm not defending the larger church. A lot of crazy stuff has gone under that bridge. I'm defending what I've seen from the people representing the So GA AC. There's a lot of places where the larger church could have tripped them up, and as of today, that doesn't seem to be the case. Graves is not letting the So GA churches go because he wants to, rather the AC Board of Trustees has the state law of Georgia on their side. While I'd like to say all the conference employees are wanting to do the right thing, the local church apportionments pay their salaries.
The 'spirit of the law' is irrelevant and hurts any future legal case. They tripped up N AL/W FL with that. GC passed a rule that 2553 can't be used anymore. The conference needs to say they are using 2549 because its their fiduciary responsibility to protect the assets under their trust (ie the local churches). If the AC thinks the best thing is for those churches to be allowed to withdraw then that is kind of it. The local churches only have the word of AC. It took a lot of trust for them to make that leap. I absolutely believe the So GA AC is going to make good on its promise. But if the AC voted differently in Special Session, the law is with the AC. The Bishop can move to have things ruled out of order, though, and why this is an important point. The Alabama courts said Judicial Council has a say in this and that's an incorrect decision IMO. The trustee is the AC. There's no legal entity named UMC, Inc. You need to make any legal challenge winnable regardless of whether the judge is UMC or GMC or Episcopalian. Everything that's said should be about the the AC's fiduciary responsibility and 2553 is irrelevant.
I may be missing something but I see the So Ga Conf acting more as gatekeepers working on behalf of the institution, rather than an entity standing in opposition to the institution. It quickly went from "nothing will change here in So Georgia, we are traditionalists, etc." to "everything has changed, it's good that it has, and we shortened the time you have to get out". If they didn't know what was coming at General Conference then they were either incompetent and totally blind to reality, or they were in on it.
There are a lot of different entities that make promises to each other. If they all keep their covenants, we work as one body. When that doesn’t happen, well, this is what you get..
You aren’t supposed to be able to leave at all. People actually leaving means things are really bad. I haven’t seen any so ga lay leaders or clergy say things that were dishonest. Is this unprecedented and something individuals you come into contact with are having a tough time explaining? Yes.
QUMC needs to makes a determination of what it thinks is the best place for them. I expect the So Ga AC to affirm that decision if y’all decide to leave. If things were going at all well, my answer would be that QUMC absolutely shouldnt leave and that the AC shouldn’t let you leave.
These leaders are not going to lose their jobs or pay
What gets me is that the UMC has been preaching for years how we get fixated on sexual sins and rarely call out things like greed. It is ironic. Though part of me wonders if they are trying to cripple conservative churches who refuse to stay with them. I hate to think the worst in people but it is something that I have considered.
I appreciate that you are staying on this subject churches wanting to leave the UMC. What they are doing in preventing churches from leaving should be exposed. As I've watched the UMC's fall over the last several years, I'm convinced that many in clergy and leadership positions are deceitful. There are still many church members who have no idea that the book of discipline has changed. If any clergy hasn't discussed this change with its members, that is dishonest and hiding the truth.
You're not wrong. It's just hard to say on what level such deceit operates. A ton of them are deceiving themselves first, such that they are being honest with others when they act like it isn't a big deal. Denial is a powerful drug.
He is also the bishop for South Georgia where the board of trustees are allowing disaffiliations. I have a hard time believing the AWFC trustees are going against the bishops wish’s.
Financial decision pure and simple in AWFC. Force conservative churches to close and sell Real Estate.
The proper action is for every disappointed congregant to just leave the UMC completely. This is a material legal matter. Stand up for your principles; just leave. I did that right after I read/heard the results of the paganized GC 2024.
It's all about the Benjamins........
It is their strategy to pass it on knowing they will never rule in favor but wear churches out
I deleted my original comment and just say this is very disappointing.
It’s mind boggling to me that people trusted their annual conferences.
"The only remedy for the conduct alleged is..." "through the UMC's Ecclesiastical Tribunal, guided by their faith, consciences, and the principles of Biblical Justice.." am I the only one who thinks the judge should have added "and may the Lord have mercy on your souls."
Andy Wendland's resolutions was 1 of 4 that were ruled out of order just because of the wording "spirit of P2553". I sat on the same row as Andy, he's a very nice gracious man.
You are right saying that Bishop Graves has changed. I was Lay Delegate when he first came to AWF Conference. He was not this condescending and seemed to have a conservative Bible chistian faith. He changed!
The conference made the promise. I don't understand what P2553 has to do with the conference keeping its word.
@@chadpeterson2907 That promise went out the door when half the churches left and the trustees blocked the remainder. The trustees work to the pleasure of the bishop.
@@elbertakiblerTo be honest, the role of the board of trustees at the conference is not something I’ve considered before. Not sure what their role is.
@@elbertakibler I've thought about this. Graves is from Holston and was sent by the SE Jurisdiction. The Board of Trustees is 4 clergy, 4 male laity and 4 female laity from the AL/N FL AC. They do not work at the pleasure of the bishop, although they might like you to think that.
@@chadpeterson2907 Older founding members of our congregation drank the Bishop's cool-aid to wait until after General Conference in order to get a "better deal". ie cheaper disaffiliation deal. I urged them not to believe this narrative and if they genuinely wished to leave to move quickly before the majority of conservative churches left in the first wave. After half of the Churches left, the board of trustees created an impossible path to leave and our church tried anyway. Now lawyers are involved... Graves shouldn't have made promises which he couldn't deliver upon. Now the language we are hearing is that "nothing" has changed therefore disaffiliation is not required.
You mention it in the video, but have churches not figured out how to just leave and force the conference to sue them? The courts won't enforce BoD, clearly. Is it the case that many/most properties are encumbered by trust language in GA/FL?
Talking around the issue and talking down to Church members. The liberal way of controlling the issue.bThey know better; you just need to be educated.
What barriers were preventing some congregations from exiting by 12/31/23?
Even when 2553 was still active, some conferences denied disaffiliation due to several reasons. Sometimes it was because of property values, too many disaffiliations, etc.
Or the conference flat or refused some churches who voted to dissafiliate. That's what the North Georgia conference did. Some congregations just up and left the multimillion dollar properties and hopefully this will end up costing the conference in the long run.
Romans 1 explains what has happened to the United Methodist Church.
Asking the Judicial Council if 2549 can be used for disaffiliation is a terrible, terrible mistake that is going to backfire!
Closing a church and selling it to the members can, of course, already happen. The judicial council will rule "no" because "disaffiliation" doesn't appear anywhere anymore in the BoD since 2553 is out, and through smoke and mirrors, the Bishops will have another excuse (like 2548's sudden dismissal after 70 years) to not allow churches to leave.
This seems like a real possibility, but I don’t think that JC has the legal right to interfere in the fiduciary responsibilities of the AC Board of Trustees or AC. Those individuals have to determine what’s best for the AC and churches within it.
I DON'T think Bishop Graves would be a good person as a relative.
What Jesus said in Matthew 28:19 is one of the most important yet misunderstood Scriptures in the new Testament.
He said, "Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" It initially appears he is saying to say the titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost at baptism, but the following proves what he is actually saying.
"Go therefore and teach all nations BAPTIZING them in the name (SINGULAR name and not "names") OF the Father, and OF the Son, and OF the Holy Ghost." Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are titles and not names. Jesus disciples never used those words when they baptized anyone in water, nor did they use those words in one sentence regarding any other topic. Every time Jesus disciples baptized anyone in water they invoked Jesus Name at baptism which is Acts 2:38, Acts 8:14, Acts 8:38, Acts 9:18, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 16:15, Acts 16:33, Acts 18:7-8, Acts 19:3-5, and Acts 22:16. Those are some of many scriptures that proves that the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is Jesus.
At about that same time Jesus said in Mark 16:16,"He that believes and is BAPTIZED shall be Saved, but he that believes not shall be damned."
Jesus addressed what damned means in Luke 16:19-31, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 25:41, Mark 9:45-46, Revelation 20:15, and Revelation 21:8.
REGARDING THE NAME OF THE FATHER:
John 5:43, I am come in my Father's name and you receive me not, if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive."
John 12:44-45,"He that believes on me, believes not on me, but on him that sent me. And him that sees me sees him that sent me."
1 John 2:23,"Whosoever denies the Son, the same has not the Father, but he that acknowledges the Son has the Father also."
Isaiah 9:6,"For unto us a child is born, unto us a SON (Jesus) is given, and the government shall be upon His shoulder, and his Name shall be called Wonderful, the MIGHTY GOD, (also Revelation 1:8) the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Piece."
REGARDING THE NAME OF THE SON:
Matthew 1:23,"Behold a virgin shall be with child and bring forth a Son and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US."
REGARDING THE NAME OF THE HOLY GHOST:
John 15:26,"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, he shall testify of "ME."
John 16:13-14,"Howbeit when the Spirit of truth is come, He shall guide you into all truth, for He shall not speak of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall He speak, and will show you things to come. 14 HE SHALL GLORIFY ME."
John 14:18,"I will not leave you comfortless, "I" will come unto you."
John 14:26,"But when the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send IN MY NAME, He shall teach you all things."
Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:17,"Now the Lord IS THAT SPIRIT, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."
Paul said in Hebrews 1:8,"But unto the SON he said, Thy throne O God is forever and ever....."
Acts 7:59, "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon GOD, and saying, LORD JESUS receive my spirit."
Jesus is speaking in the following Scriptures in the book of Revelation:
Revelation 1:8, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, which was, and is to come, THE ALMIGHTY."
Revelation 1:17-18,"And when I saw him (John speaking) I fell at his feet as dead, and he laid his hands on me, saying unto me, Fear not, I am the first and the last. 18 I am he that lives and was dead, and behold, I am alive forever more, Amen and have the keys of hell and of death." Also Matthew 28:18..
Revelation 2:7,"He that has an ear, let him hear what the SPIRIT says unto the Churches." Also Revelation 2:11
Revelation 21:6-7, "And he said unto me, (John) It is done, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the waters life freely. 7 He that overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his GOD, and he shall be my SON." Some say the Thief on the cross next to Jesus was not baptized yet Jesus told him he would be with him that day in paradise. Jesus had not given the COMMANDMENT to be baptized in his Name until after He rose from the dead and just before He ascended to heaven. The thief or anyone else at that time could not have done it because they did not know about it.
If you are convinced you need to get Baptized in water in Jesus Name, do a search, type in "United Pentecostal Church International", slightly scroll down to just below the red box, type in your zip code, then a screen will show a Church nearest you that will do that. If you get Baptized in water Jesus Name, and get baptized with the Holy Ghost which is addressed in Mark 16:17 (Jesus speaking) Acts 2:3-4 (Pentecost). Acts 8:17, Acts 9:18, Acts 10:44-48, and Acts 19:3-5 - which is when the Spirit of Christ initially dwells in a person. Nowhere in Scripture does it say it happens any other way than that way. There is not one Scripture that says a person receives the Holy Ghost just because they are a believer. Acts 19:1-5 is a good example.
Paul said in Romans 8:9-11,”But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, HE IS NONE OF HIS."
If you do the above you will be making SURE your name is written in the Lamb's Book Of Life.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:4,"Take heed that no man deceives you."
Jesus said in John 10:27, "My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me."