The problem is that beyond that one time it's not all that interesting to hear someone that you 100% agree with. More interesting to hear a debate between two people with different views. Sorry for a boring response 😆
@@ranggagilang4223 Hasn't it been uploaded already? Maybe I saw it live Also, I think Lav discussions are pretty enjoyable to listen to. She always comes out with her opinion guns blazing, but is also chill and actually seems to listen to what's being communicated to her, and responds in turn
They don't know conversations like this exist and are unwilling to look for conversations like this because they think Destiny is transphobic. Also, aside from that, most people probably aren't gonna be willing to listen to 1+ hour long debate videos.
@@WanderTheNomad while this is true. It is funny that the people that are calling destiny transphobic are the ones who do watch debate content like this from other people lol
probably bc there are levels of transphobia to ppl. i'd be called a transphobe for having issue with trans women in sports, just like destiny has been, because to them trans women should be considered women, and a superior kind of woman in certain sports, like tall people and basketball. people who don't want kids to have hrt period would be called transphobes, because they're going off the narrative that trans kids might regret what that does to their body and that reinforces the idea that trans people are socialized into becoming trans. you're always gonna be a transphobe to someone, even other trans people. i mean one of the most prominent trans women was just cancelled for liking a pro trans-medicalism post on insta.
Watching lav have a debate is like watching a frog jump on lilypads and every lily pad she jumps on ends up sinking but she never really stays long enough to feel the consequences.
When lav said "Why would someone want to be a man? Like trans women are cool but ew trans man?" Isn't that her literally appealing to her own sense of womanhood? Isn't that her internal experience of being a woman speaking? She feels it, she just can't explain it, just like the rest of us.
@@cainification I think it's likely trans people "really are" the gender they say they are, in a physical neurological sense at the intermediate scale of structure. For example, we know pre-transition trans men (born in female body, still in female body) experience phantom pain at the same 60% rate as born eunuchs, which suggests their somatosensory cortex map has one of the male layouts. Descriptions of palpable dysphoria also bear resemblance to descriptions of body dysmorphia due to head trauma, such as revulsion toward the affected bodypart. Bottom line is, the suffering of dysphoria is probably not something they can psych themselves out of. It's a bit like saying "I don't see why people with migraines need headache pill, they should just accept their situation and learn to be happy about it." The people we're talking about are suffering, and transition as a treatment dramatically improves their lives by their own measure. This results in them being indistinguishable from the opposite sex, which makes tying their identity to their chromosomes socially impractical. So, we switch to treating them socially according to their gender presentation and gender identity rather than their sex. Ultimately we use gender in a "social" sense on the day to day, and a "neurological" sense when talking about dysphoria and transition more clinically. Their condition seems to be in some ways related to the actual gendering of the brain, lending credence to their claims and to the idea of being able to internally sense these particular differences. In addition, the notion of self has changed over the centuries, and these days we think of ourselves as are our minds and brains, rather than our bodies, so it's easy to imagine that a person's mind might vary along a gendered dimension while their body remains the same. This varying of the mind is more important to who you are as a person, and therefore more important to how you should be seen socially, than the particular shape of your body, which is basically just there to carry the brain around. So what I do is I say, okay, I'm going to attach the word "gender" to this dimension of sex-correlated differences in the brain, which makes gender a spectrum, and I'm going to treat people according to what they say their gender is, even if it doesn't match their sex, not because everything they say is right, but because they probably wouldn't be saying that unless there was a good enough chance that they were in some real respect transgender that it becomes best to extend the principle of charity on the matter. It's not just about being nice, it's about epistemic caution.
@@cainification what's the point of a middle ground if it only satisfies your sensibilities and not the people who are actually affected? Just because you, a passive spectator, are limited in your understanding doesn't mean people should conform to it.
@@cainification entirely fair, badly written. I just wanted to know what a "middle ground" is, because we're talking about people's deeply rooted identities, not some casual matter of opinion. Calling for a middle ground if you're not affected by a queer person's choice of affirming their identity just sounds like policing personal expression to me, is what I meant. The issue of people pretending to be what they aren't to get access to certain things is a miniscule issue that pales in comparison to the abuse men are already capable of (e.g they can already go into a women's toilet to abuse someone or go in when no one's looking and hide). - The benefits of letting people live in accordance with their identity are massive, and you can both be pro-affirming queers and have reasoned discussions about legal implications. E.g, just because some negative outcomes are theoretically possible, doesn't mean they're not worth navigating. Lmk if I've missed your point
@@TheMightySilverback_ which is exactly the point - people are panicking about an exaggerated scare-tactic scenario to make lives harder for trans people. Women's bathrooms don't have urinals and a trans person is much less likely to assault a woman (in fact is much more likely to be assaulted) than any other woman (there are statistically more lesbians) or man (they commit most sexual assaults and already have the ability to go into a woman's bathroom to do something harmful)
@@SkeleTonHammer yes and she’s willing to be changed on a lot of her opinions. I think Sneak-o definitely makes more entertaining content, but I feel like most of the same complaints could be leveled at him too. These are our everyman/everywomen - they make a lot of hard claims with soft data and life experiences. Fingers crossed we still get good faith engagement a year from now and we see some good development.
59:17 I wish Destiny was wrong here, but in a way he's right. I'm a wheelchair user with a facial difference. My experience with dating in high school and college was more difficult compared to my other female friends. I felt very infantilized whereas Lav had said that when she grew up she felt sexualized. Even in a non romantic sense, me being stared at because of my face is a COMPLETELY different form of discomfort than a conventionally attractive woman being stared at by men.
I think this comment has no replies because people feel bad. I don't. You're a person, just like everyone else. You're capable of living otherwise you wouldn't have gone to high school or college. Shits gonna work out. Or it doesn't and you die either way. Stiff upper lip lads o7
Because the only arguments she brings to the table are personal opinions/experiences and things she's heard from others, never actual research. Probably an ego thing that her words hold stronger than studies so there's no need or it could just be that she's too lazy to do the research
@@s3nc3r7 and what research do you want use then ? All the research that claimed non binary exists is unfalsifiable in lab testing enviroment. Not to mention the level of term pollution a lot of US psychology gave us in the last two decades. Things that not so long ago were considered to be a mix of narcisistic disorder with schisophrenia (and treatable with medication used for the second one) , are now labled as separate kind of human.
Lav Logic: "I feel this way, therfore, all women actually feel this way despite what they themselves say about their own feelings." She might actually be the female version of Sneako the more I think about it...
Lmfao i agree completely 🤣 it’s insane how they’re brains have rotted in all the same ways but just on opposite ideologies. They literally can only comprehend things in terms of right/left wing trigger words
"I feel this way, therfore, all women actually feel this way despite what they themselves say about their own feelings." They don't say anything about their feelings, that's the entire point of this, there is not a single women on this planet who can explain how it feels like to be a women, it's all an internalized belief about how a certain gender behaves that makes people become trans.
Sneako is a radical masculinist and Lav is a radical feminist, both are maybe a tad more open minded than the most extreme points of view on both sides, but they are also both at least somewhat bigoted in their view of the world and others because they have very little introspection and almost no affective empathy. They can understand others feelings logically and mentally if it is explained to them the right way, which is cognitive empathy. But they don’t really have much affective empathy, so they can’t actually feel others emotions themselves, or at least, they struggle to identify it, also because of low levels introspection. Also because of these things they both have a long way to go in terms of having a really developed theory of mind. They aren’t stupid or immature per se, there are people much older and (on paper) perhaps even smarter than they are who are worse. But with that being said, I’m 5 years younger than they are and I’m not anywhere near this vapid and shallow. I’m not the most mature person ever by far but I’m already a good bit past where these two are in the psychological sense
Honestly, Lav did bring up questions that should be asked, but I agree with Destiny. He said it best by saying 'you gotta make sure that what your talking about or asking comes from a place of compassion and not bigotry or hatred'.
I'm gonna say something very condescending here. Do you ever have that homie who's going through your exact ideological development process, but is like 3 years behind you in the journey, and you can just tell they're gonna wind up with similar conclusions to yours, but there's nothing you can say to fast-track them? I feel like that's what destiny constantly has to go through. Life ain't easy as a boomer
I don’t find it condescending, I think there are just a lot of people who aren’t as mature as they think, even amongst full blown adults. It’s probably in part due to outdated views on what adulthood and maturity is supposed to be that formed over thousands of years in the past. Views that has only been challenged relatively very recently by new understanding of human psychology and social dynamics, etc. I’m 20 but I’ve had adults tell me all my life that I seem more mature than a lot of adults. I guess you could say I have an old soul. I’ve had strangers who were twice my age tell me that I look way younger than I sound in conversation. A few have told me I sound more like I’m 30, or older, not 20. I’ve seen multiple therapists who have said similar things. Including that I’m so self-aware they literally don’t know how to help me or why I need help. Obviously there are times where I act pretty immaturely still. But especially around strangers who have just met me, or in a professional environment, where I’m putting my best manners forward, and trying to leave good impressions on folks, I get comments like: ‘how are you not rich or famous’, ‘please run for public office’, ‘you should write a book’, etc. I don’t really know what to say to them honestly. It’s done some harm to me too, because now it’s an expectation I place on myself to be that mature and well-developed person all the time. That probably sounds weird, but that’s just a part of how socialization works. I’m privileged in a lot of ways to have come so far on my journey, especially coming out of a rough childhood. But it’s very lonely. I can’t relate to people my age. But it’s hard to be 20 and have more in common with 30 and 40 year olds who have way more life experience. I like Destiny because he thinks similarly to how I do, and it sounds like he had a similar experience growing up. I’m glad there’s at least a few people out there who get it.
i dont find it condescending, but at the same time ideological development progress is kinda subjective. for example i use to be really pro trans but now i think that the gender critical position is just more coherent. i know people who are anti trans but for completely different reasons then i am. i think the line of reasonings and how we get to our positions are more important than just having the same positions as someone else. for example a gender critical gender abolitionist is going to have more in common with a gender abolitionist trans ideologue then a conservative who just hates trans women the same way they would hate feminine men
Nope, quite true. I fell down the alt-right pipeline about 5 years ago when my mental health crashed and I was very isolated (pre-pandemic), I spouted all the same crap, got roped in with a sense of community, easy/extreme answers to complicated problems, bias media and loaded language. I climbed out of it about three years ago for multiple reasons, mainly the hypocrisy, double standards and their unfair/uneducated stance on Abortion/Gay rights. My older sister has now currently fallen way down the exact same pipeline, again it happened when her mental health was at its worst (during the pandemic) and she felt isolated. She's now a Trump fan, rabidly anti-vax and has said some very bigoted shit towards LGBTQ+ people and minorities without realising how awful she sounds when she says it. She's a more extreme version of me from 5 years ago. She and I are very different people, so I can only hope she climbs out of it the same way I did - I can't help her here, I've tried. She needs to reach this point herself. I'm worried though, some people fall down there and don't come back.
I am honestly like 40% there with Lav but then she goes full into the feminist shit and I'm like I can't follow how your brain has a consistent, normal track and then all of a sudden hits a pinball minefield of decade old feminist talking points and phrases
Pinball minefield is a perfect way to describe that. These underdeveloped and old talking points are just stuck in people’s head like some sort of internalized trauma. People barely realize they’re being shaped by that thinking.
It's pretty simple, her brain always revolve around how everything should be about her, not be a problem for her privileges and how she feels about those 2 things. She knows she has privilege (for example when she say ''women are a protected class'' at around 50 minutes) and she doesn't like that trans people are ''taking'' her privilege but she isn't able to phrase it in a way that doesn't make her look like she's morally bad, so she just try to go full circle on a bad take and vomit words to try and recuperate.
Trans ‘rights’ shouldn’t step on female rights. She’s 100% right. What is this obsession with old talking points being bad, as if everything has to evolve? Women are protected, and that should never change because people feel it’s ‘old fashioned’
@@Daniel_Clem if only there was a better term for this than "fragility". I'm serious, you're describing what some academics have started to call "white fragility" (in relation to race obv) and that's just a terrible term if you want normal people to listen to what you have to say
I have an older sister - assigned male at birth - who was suicidal and an emotional wreck for the first 30 years of her life. A few years ago, she learned about what it takes to transition and she dipped her toe into it socially. Cut to five years later, she’s the happiest I’ve ever seen her. Honestly, she seems to enjoy life more than I do as a cis male. I can’t personally pretend to understand the feeling, but I see the outcome. That outcome is positive. Fuck the haters.
Your sister is a man, observed male at birth living as a woman as a adult. Few care what adults do to themselves, if its beneficial to them without harming others its fine. The problem is the Trans movement is after children before puberty, that is the main reason for the 'haters'. You will see more people stop tiptoeing around their language as the movement gets more aggressive and unreasonable. The stuff they are writing as medical guidance is horrific.
@@HAHAd2 i’m going to sperg out and ask you a handful of questions cause i’m always interested in how this logic works. Maybe you can explain this to me; this comment (the main comment, about the trans sibling) was someone expressing that their sibling was living a happier life as a woman when compared to their pre-transitioned life. Given she’d transitioned, the writer used the term “Sister” to refer to his relative who is now publicly a girl. The purpose of the comment was to provide testimony to the increase in mental wellbeing that accompanies transitioning. a reasonable, well-meaning reply under a debate with adjacent topics your NPC reply is what i’m interested in. i feel like i’ve seen tons of your across the internet, and around the (very traditional, Italian, republican) neighborhood i used to work in. The series of thoughts that went on in your head before sending that are paywalled behind my useless liberal arts degree and i want to know how you work. for the record, i did not like your comment and have the preconception that you are hateful towards trans people - which is why i am asking. *Q1:* The transitioning individual was 30 y/o, so the argument couldn’t have gone down the usual derogatory pipeline relative to age, but you avoided that altogether and just actively mis-gendered the first gender-related term you saw. *Why did you feel the need to say anything?* Was it a civic duty? was it to pwn teh libzords? I feel like, maybe, it was something you were seeking out - which is even more interesting. *Q2:* Given you watched a destiny video, i imagine you’re either a fan of destiny or a fan of Sneak-o or the likewise republican types. no shame, but i have to wonder; *Does this feel like a place where you’d be accepted for leaving derogatory comments or “truths” or whatnot about trans people, etc? Does your misgendering become more righteous if the answer is “no”?* and also, maybe you could mention how about you came to be watching this video. and finally, *Q3:* just generally, *do you hate trans people? or do you just disagree with them.* i hope you are of the camp of the latter, but the follow up regardless would be *was this comment driven by anger? if no, what feeling?* thanks lol
Lav just seems to have a hard time with realising that her experience of life does not inform the reality and experience of others. Like the debates about porn she had, she cant get past the idea that alot of women and men have positive experiences with porn and sex work. It's all about her personal experience and everyone else is either wrong, brainwashed or delusional.
I'm pretty sure I mostly agree with Lav about porn, but probably not for the same reasons. And I'm pretty hesitant to say this mostly because I'm never very sure what Lav actually thinks.
Just because you have a positive experience with porn or prostitution does not in any way make it ok. You say that personal experience justifies using porn but then also say that her personal experience is wrong. Very conflicting.
Lol I agree with her, I don’t have any internal experience about being a female either. I don’t feel like a female, I feel like a person. What makes somebody feel female? How do you feel female? You just FEEL that you align more with society’s depiction of a woman.
@@chungbc2914 I just do. I wake up and feel feminine when I look at myself in the mirror getting ready for work. Many of my women friends feel the same. So if we are going off of anecdotal evidence, which your original claim of not feeling it was made off of, then I've supplied a counter that follows your logic exactly.
Good because she was right this whole time. Destiny kept using the word "gender" to replace sex or as a different concept depending on what suits him. The reason transgender people exists requires society to be structured for gender to exist. Transsexualism is the correct term that would exist no matter if society had gendered norms.
She isn't even a little bit masculine in her personality :V That's the feminist definition of masculinity, not the actual difference between man and women outside of modern societies. Look at videos of people visiting hunter gatherers and the women are feminine but _absolutely not_ demure(in comparison to the men, outside of actual combat situations) and they _absolutely do not_ accept getting less than the men.
As a woman who performs overt femininity, much more so than probably the majority of women, it’s mind blowing that she doesn’t believe she has an internal sense of gender. If she had to cut her hair short and wear baggy clothes everywhere that mask her silhouette and alter the way people perceive her, she would undoubtedly be uncomfortable and feel an incongruence. Imagine going to a fancy restaurant and having to wear a dress shirt and slacks in a masculine fashion while the women in her midst get to wear dresses and makeup and do their hair and attract the attention she craves. Something tells me she wouldn’t be cool with that.
You know long hair and skirts and pink and all these things have been guy things in the past, right? I don't think these outer trappings or wanting them is what makes you a man or a woman.
Dude I feel like this is one gigantic troll: I'm hearing all about this cool conversation with that woman from Ukraine and instead a Lav conversation gets uploaded, the person I couldn't be any less interested in.
Mr Girl would just say exactly all the same shit he has already said many times. It's fine that he has the same opinion across multiple conversations but I don't know why I'd want to listen to him repeat himself
I like how Destiny started the conversation off asking if they could have a conversation without yelling and he broke that rule within the first 2 minutes of talking to her lol
I think it is strange that we decided that things like... wearing a dress, playing with Barbie dolls, liking pink, cooking, etc... are considered ACTUAL traits of woman... and that gender being connected to sex is considered the social construct. These seem exactly backwards to me.
@@TheSyntaxE Thanks for the info. Had a quick perusal of her music. Being charitable, she strikes me as a diluted Lana del Ray - not the best of places to start. The output is serviceable, but the music, voice, and lyrics in combination are largely unremarkable and fairly banal, lacking a unique point of view or any significant depth. That said, good on her for hustling and leveraging her looks to achieve a career
see alot of mocking of lav, while I agree. I think that the fact that she is able to concede points and not be ignorant about her stance makes her a less frustrating guest than most of destiny's debates. I feel like she understands she is not the smartest but does try to be open about topics which makes her an interesting guest.
Being able to make concessions is without a doubt a good trait and not that common in the online space but I think it's the path the viewers have to endure to finally get there that makes it so painful.
"why are people calling me transphobic? i just want people to do whatever makes my tummy feel better, im not an expert or anything, but everybody just do what i want"
She always goes back to the ''it's a women's right'' or ''it's because of misogyny'' (and ''women are a protected class'' in this discussion). Her problem is not that she doesn't believe in trans people, it's that she doesn't like that ''men'' can get the same privileges she gets as a women. It make her feelings of entitlement and privileges not real, but she can't pinpoint that it's the problem (or doesn't want to because it make her a moraly bad person).
@@Delkesss what are you on aboutm the conversation wasn't about anything in particular, she kept jumping from one point to another endlessly like that one Fall Guys game mode lmao
I don’t get the lav hate. I think its good content. Its a refreshing change of pace when the debate isn’t so structured and people are willing to be/ admit when they are inconsistent so their worldview frameworks aren’t immutable. And she and destiny have some good banter. I don’t think it’s the most enjoyable to always have logic driven conversations. Something beautiful and human to connect in messy ways.
Lav probably had the starting stats to be a decent intellectual as a kid, but she pivoted into a different path for fun and now she’s trying to respec too late in life.
It's never too late to respec. Though I guess most 90 year olds don't change their mind about much anymore but your cognitive processes are always subject to change!
As a trans woman myself I really wish there was a way to telepathically explain to people like her how amazing transition is for people like me. It's a relief and a joy more than anything I can compare it to
I don't wanna be offensive, but can you explain to me? I genuinely want to understand this, like how old were you when you transitioned? Based of my understanding of Trans people, it originates from Gender dysphoria, which I interpret as a mental illness (Which has nothing to do with your competence or intelligence), and I am still hesitant to fully support transitioning as the solution for everyone. So can you explain what that feeling was like? So I can understand better
Compared to any other set of procedures, medication, injuries? Yeah, it is an extremely tiny subset of the population that would qualify for such procedures, an even small amount who can afford it.
@@fifiadan All those teachers and Social Workers really making big bucks huh? Hell throw soldiers in there as well. There are people who dedicate their lives to benefitting the world without the need of vast compensation. And thankfully we have laws about providing care to people even if it only costs the hospital money.
Gender isn't experienced internally, only externally. You don't feel like a man or a woman, you're treated like a man or a woman by other people. Hence why all of society must accommodate transgender people and the difficulty in doing so. It's not a live and let live situation like any other group of people, it's an everyone has to change situation. Trans activists fail because they think it's just about acceptance, but your asking far more of society than just that.
I agree, since the root of the problem isn't transgenders. It's how men and women treat each other. As long as men and women are open at disliking each other trans people are gonna have a bad time since they'll never be treated well. Like how transmen end up invisible and transwomen get excessive heat.
@@ellewilliams5162 your personal feelings that occur due to the way society perceives you is literally dysphoria, your brain ≠ objective reality = despair. Trans individuals who do not pass, or non binary individuals will never receive unequivocal societal support, and that's just the way it will always be.
@@AlexDestroyerOfEarth I don’t think you understand dysphoria, it is’t just external, it is also based on how you see yourself And yeah gender expression is mostly how society genders people, but it doesn’t have to be that way
As someone who doesn't really know who Lav is, I found myself agreeing (in a sense) with some of her points, but I wanted to disagree with her purely out of principle of how fecking annoying she is.
God I really don’t like her shes the embodiment of stubborn and wouldn’t stay on one idea makes listening to this conversation very hard and we love her random quirky disassociation when presented with a point she can’t argue against 🤪 Also “profiling can keep you safe” 🤨 wym by that
Profiling is fucked up, but also we must carefully identify any white person's unconscious biases and make sure to test them to make sure they don't harbor any views that fall in line with "whiteness" based on what we believe to be harmful 😇👌
Lav is sometimes really frustrating an annoying to listen to but no the less I want her to continue having discussions. Disappointed in how everyone is just giving in and saying fuck Lav she’s intolerable. There are much harder conversations to be had than Lav.
I guess unpopular opinion, i thought this talk was pretty good. Destiny got mad a few times, girl was pretty fun. Also Destiny made really good arguments, which i might steal in the future. But the girl was fun, for sure. Destiny made some smart and thought out points. Oh and the girl was pretty fun.
I think she just phrased that badly, she seems to think about it being the wrong answer to people with some serious problems. Wouldn’t necessarily call that transphobic, just skeptical
Nonbinary doesn't make sense. Binary means two and only two. If there are more than two genders then there is no binary. If there is no binary then there is no such thing as nonbinary. gender identity noun the unmeasurable and shifting notion of what a person thinks they may feel at any specific moment in time about a fluid and changeable concept that either correlates with or denies their innate biological sex or alternatively corresponds with that person's estimation of their opposite sex predicated on their own personal perception of a stereotypical yet ultimately unknowable and reductive abstraction of an assumption for which they have no frame of reference to even begin to understand.
That bit about how "Oh its just internalized misogyny" annoyed me a lot. People always try to link their problems to other people's problems all the way back to one big problem that we just have to get rid of all at once to enter a utopia. Lav had bad sex work experiences so her worldview revolves around patriarchy. The number of times she gets stunlocked by the contradictions in her own opinions is insane. It's great that she seems willing to learn though and I hope she takes away critical thinking skills from this stuff
Lav is 100% correct about the experience of gender, if I would wake up as a woman tomorrow, It would be inconvenient but I would just continue living. Perhaps I would be a lesbian but I wouldn’t care, because I don’t think about my gender ever ^^ I’m just me, and I would assume most people perceive themselves as just themselves.
@@Lucaserik I have serious doubt a healthy adult would go through body altering surgery and look trans, even if they switched bodies. But just kinda live with it.
@@NeoRetroX I feel like it's such a hard things to speculate about, like how would I want my friends and family to treat me, because I definitely think that would change with my gender. Like I get what you are saying, but it feels like such an abstract argument
@@ceejay1476 i get what you’re trying to say here, that trans people are seen as the gender they’re not blah blah blah, so you’re asking that person how they’d feel if the same was done to them. but it makes no sense because seeing someone as a woman when they have a female body is absolutely reasonable but starting to treat a man as a woman when he’s visibly male makes no sense. your comparison doesn’t work
They didnt work so hard to exist as women, they worked so hard to be treated equal. The whole point of freedom is so YOU can choose whats right for YOU.
She can't make the attempt to realize other ppl have different experiences lol That's literally it With every argument she has It all leads back to the same MO No perspective whatsoever It's like a teenager in middle school who makes every single thing that happens to them feel like the world is fina end
21:00 Trans people are not killing themselves over lack of surgery Destiny, you know that framing is wrong. Many that get the surgery still commit suicide because they realise that the surgery doesn't fix a damn thing, it's a stressful and traumatic experience that does more harm than good.
@@ellewilliams5162 It's easy to just say that and retreat to your self righteous echo chamber isn't it.. Just ignore the fact that suicide rates for trans people are almost identical for pre and post surgery. Which very strongly suggests that surgery itself does not even help in the majority of cases. Ignoore the people who's lives are ruined by them being coerced into mutilating themselves, they don't fit into your self righteous savior narrative.
i understand what she was trying to say cause i felt the same way as a kid. I was born male but growing up i just got along with females better. I love talking, shopping, spa, baking, babysitting, etc. I remember being in high school and during the SuperBowl i would love the day before cause we would go shopping and precook the meals etc than the day of the SuperBowl me and some girls would go to the spa and shopping. after that day i remember thinking i wish i was a female cause i love hanging out with girls no sexually, I wanted kids and a family since 8 years old, i would love to be a house wife staying home cleaning and cooking taking care of my partner. so for a long time i remember wishing i was female. I think she was talking about the same thing growing up she was a tomboy so she felt like a boy so when she was younger she felt trans because she identify as a boy when she supposed to be a girl.
How many more centuries until we all collectively understand that telling an entire group they hate themselves is an Unimaginablly hateful thing to believe.
Wow, destiny morally grandstanding and calling a person hateful for questioning his narrative. Thumbs down. Also, I thought that destiny is all about facts? But when it comes to LGBT feefees he suddenly collapses and takes everyone as given in terms of "Thats how it was told to me".
She says “what does it mean to feel like a woman” and you respond with “omg don’t roll your eyes, what does it mean to feel human?” Why does she even need to answer that? What point did you think you were making? Were you trying to make her case stronger? One does not feel human, we just are human. That’s the point she was making with women. You don’t feel like a woman, you just are one.
@@lydiawilder5996 well no, I have nothing to compare it to. I’ve lived my entire life as a man, it’s impossible for me to describe what it feels like to be a woman without appealing to how society views and treats women.
Both Destiny & Lav taking Ls. Neither have coherent arguments. My take is that non-binary and gender is effectively used to describe other hormonal phenomena. It's not useful to confuse sex/hormones/societal conditioning all into one thing with this new 'gender' idea which really has become a lexical issue where nobody agrees or is arguing about the same thing. Ultimately, each person has a different hormonal profile - that influences how you feel about your sexual orientation and predetermines some of your behavioural actions. There is a certain level that society and environment also dictates your actions and behaviours. We assign masculine traits to testosterone derived actions, and feminine traits to oestrogen derived actions. Your environment may push you one way or another a little from your natural baseline, but majoritively hormones seem to influence this (otherwise why would trans people take HRT?). How you feel is based on this. People who are relatively androgynous in their hormonal profile and upbringing are probably more likely to be confused and associate with 'non-binary'. If being 'non-binary' feels like an issue, then HRT is needed preferably in the direction of which their sex associates (men -> TRT, fem -> OET). IMO non-binary/asexualaity is probably similar. As for trans women for example, they were probably already growing up with feminine behavioural patterns, which over time influenced their hormonal profile and self-perception, but not enough to actually become a women/man respectively, so more HRT is needed to transition. Why trans 'happens' IMO, is really a tale of social conditioning and slotting into opposite sex roles early on, enjoying the benefits, and then feeling psychological dissociation from your birth determined sex physically. I don't think any deviation from birth sex is healthy, but, if these people feel happier with HRT and transitioning, then so be it. Though looking at the data, they are still often very depressed after transition, so we can effectively say physical transition is only a symptom of something psychological going on which is not solved. It's a very complicated issue, but ultimately I see 'gender dysmorphia' as a mental deviation into opposite sex behaviours formed early on in childhood by socialisation NOT hormones, that causes a dissociation from their body at some point because it doesn't match up with what they want to be physically to be accepted into society, being a feminine man or masculine woman. TLDR: Gender is a lexical problem that lumps hormonal/sexual/societal conditioning phenomena into one word so it's impossible to discuss it - but ultimately it's a conditioning issue from an early age which turns into a hormonal issue later paired with physical dissociation in the worst cases, which is where transsexuality occurs. Depression from that never fully alleviates for most because they still can't identify with a new body they never had before even if it is congruent with what is fem/masc.
This whole debate can be summarized briefly: Destiny: "Let's consider X -> Y -> Z" Lav: "What you say makes sense, but there are also annoying people online who say X -> Y -> Z, so I have no choice but to disagree on principle"
These comments are extremely cringe. Yes she dismissed the entire trans community by saying they are "ill", which is pretty stupid, but aside from that she said some good stuff in a pretty eloquent way. Those of you who can't hear a woman talking might actually be misogynistic
I don't know how he hasn't hit on this before, but there really doesn't seem to be an *internal* feeling of gender. Destiny has talked about this before, but it seems like there are two types of 'gender dysphoria'. There is the dysphoria a trans person feels when they feel there are certain societal expectations put upon them that they don't meet. Like if they're a transwoman and they are good at sports and they aren't very tough or aggressive (and have no desire to be that way). *That is external.* If this person were raised in a vacuum, they would not feel this, because it comes solely from the expectations of others not matching their self-image. This is gender, but since it is external, it is not an internal feeling of gender. Because gender is, in the end, a social construct. Then there is the dysphoria a trans person feels when they look in the mirror, at their own body. Like if they're a transman and they have an hourglass figure. *This is not gender.* It is your sex. It is how your body was created. Where is the *internal* feeling of gender? I would say it doesn't exist. I would say that there is your biological sex, which is internal, and there is gender, which is external (how others perceive you). I mean, we didn't even have words for this shit until a few decades ago. Gender and sex were synonyms. Woman meant 'adult human female'.
gender has always just been the social aspect of our sex. the first point you bring up is why terfs like jk rowling have somewhat of a point, how can we be sure *some* trans men aren't transitioning because of social stigmas against women performing typically masculine activities or behaving in ways society deems masculine?
@@fifiadan Yes you would still see differences between men and women, but that is not an expression of gender, that is merely natural trends in personality that we see in men and women. After all, emotional men are still men, and logical women are still women. What separates men who aren't masculine (tough, dominant, logical, etc) from transwomen who are? Nothing, other than self-identification and the aforementioned gender dysphoria. So again I say: there is no *internal* feeling of gender.
@@testcase6997 I don't really care if scientists disagree with me about shit they have no evidence for, but do they even disagree? It's not like I'm denying gender dysphoria exists. Your comment is so ironic. "Someone who just busts into conversations you know nothing about" That seems to be exactly what you're doing.
@@testcase6997 ??? I'm just someone who's critical of the left's current understanding of gender, because it doesn't make any fucking sense. I'm guessing you think that if we start thinking too hard about this stuff, we will end up invalidating trans people and gender dysphoria or something. Don't have much confidence in your beliefs, do you?
I actually kind of agree with people not having some internal sense of gender. People who identify as non binary and have no body disphoria seem to just have issues with gender norms and self image to me. Maybe I’m wrong, but in any case Lav is the last person who should take a stand on this.
Her brain has feminist sized holes in it which are filled with man hating, conspiratorial theories that makes it completely impossible for her to have an independent/exploratory/curious thought of her own. *shudders*
I don't really get his reasoning. Every step of the way he's just describing the things we've heard a million times before, theres no real arguments against her very valid points.
What I can't understand is why people are accepting of changing gender/sex, but you cannot change your race. Yeah what I just said is really stupid, but if you think about it changing your sex holds more significance than changing your skin colour; one is changing your hormones so you can be viewed differently, the other is changing the colour of your skin, not nationality/ethnicity/culture, the colour of your skin. Since changing skin colour would have less affect on yourself/others, why is it looked down on compared to changing your hormones?
@@TheSyntaxE so the entire argument hinges on "people killing themselves"? I do not believe that there is internal feeling of gender. And Destiny's argument was stupid "how does it feel to be human go" Yeah...that was her point... you are human because you are biologically human not because you feel human.
@@TheSyntaxE that's not my question, I was asking why it is pretty much unanimously looked down upon to change the colour of your skin compared to changing your sex which would hold less significance.
To dumb it down even further, I'm making an ultimatum of "If you are accepting of non-binary, you must also do the same with people who change their skin colour"
The analogy would be with "racial identity" and "racial norms", but the reason why it isn't seen as the same is that things like "racial norms" are way more nebulous.
The comment section has been the worst part of this Destiny arc. This is one of the more interesting videos he has had recently and the comments are just righty losers saying "women make me want to be misogynistic." Or the conservative standard of just decrying academia for being wrong because they disagree with the commenters.
@@dododu3412 nothing to lose, just multiple years in a body that feels not your own. While female puberty starts generating female body traits just as a man’s does. It being easier to pass later doesn’t mean suffering should occur. And if that girl wanting to be a man develops large breasts, wide hips etc they may now have to seek excessive surgery to pass as male. Instead of suppressing those as well. Which means more trauma, and maybe the unaliving that occurs is a result of the 5 years being told you can’t transition creating a fucked mental space that the late transition is too late to work against. Especially if in the course of being babysat while being told to wait, they do things that leave long term marks and signs of that trauma.
@@dododu3412 Well, one problem is that, if adolescents are started on puberty blockers early enough, it can stunt the development of their genitalia. And for transwomen, having a vaginoplasty means needing plenty of flesh downstairs to turn inside out & stitch together. So, if there is not enough genital skin, then grafts have to be harvested from other parts of the body. For example, colon grafts can be used bc they don’t shrink. However, one complication of colon vaginoplasty is bowel obstruction. Besides the fact that our gonads produce most of our sex hormones & our endogenous sex hormones support our other organs (e.g. brain, pancreas, heart), so a trans adolescent will become a life-long patient blah, blah, blah…
@@rangerofalinos Transmen need “excessive” surgery anyway. Many of them have to get hysterectomies bc testosterone atrophies their female genitalia & puts them at risk of sepsis. Hysterectomies have been linked to increased risk of dementia & I don’t think that’s going to do wonders for their mental health either. Plus, phalloplasties require multiple surgeries (&, sometimes, multiple corrective surgeries bc of urethral complication rates).
I am starting to feel that the (non) gender question is more linguistic than mental. Somehow cultures with out neutral gender in their language does not have such need for mental expression of "non binary".
I think a big roadblock in these conversations is that gender as a concept, gender as an experience, and gender as an expression are all wrapped up as one thing- despite being quite different in the way they are internally/externally determined and influenced.
Why I wish the trans community would break gender stereotypes but all they do is entrench it. I have heard to many say I'm z woman cause I like pink & dresses. If stereotypes are broken. Ppl can just be themselves without having to box themselves into man & women & nonbinary.
Destiny really didn't convince me that there is such a thing as non binary. I have to agree with Lav, I don't know what it means to feel like a male or female. The argument put forward by Destiny was hardly anything but buzzwords and non answers.
And the concept that you can not fit the mold of either makes no sense, even if you participate in all social roles equally that doesn't mean you're "non binary", it just means you're open to participation in all roles. We put far too much stock in personal feelings when things like this are kind of placed upon you by society/community.
@@AlexDestroyerOfEarth I think you almost get it, if you participated in all social roles equally, and your sex was between male and female physically, you could never be a "binary" man or woman. To be binary would necessitate you being 100% on either side of the spectrum. To be anywhere on the line except for an endpoint would mean that you are non-binary.
@@AlexDestroyerOfEarth Yes they could. A person could have a 50/50 split of male and female primary and secondary sex characteristics. And you're right, most people are NB by default, but choose one or the other.
Every Destiny comment section is filled with transphobes that worship Destiny, a very pro Trans commentator. Goes to show how consistent transphobes are in their ideology /s
I love how Destiny has to come in and "fix" everyone's arguments when an incorrect person is making the rounds and nobody can be logical during debates.
My vote is to replace Lav with the cool Ukrainian girl
The problem is that beyond that one time it's not all that interesting to hear someone that you 100% agree with. More interesting to hear a debate between two people with different views. Sorry for a boring response 😆
@@blickluke just wait until august upload it. You're gonna love her.
100% agree
@@ranggagilang4223 Hasn't it been uploaded already? Maybe I saw it live
Also, I think Lav discussions are pretty enjoyable to listen to. She always comes out with her opinion guns blazing, but is also chill and actually seems to listen to what's being communicated to her, and responds in turn
I just made a moderate defense of lav in another comment. But uh yeah - based. Please.
Lav is proof that i'm straight because despite listening to this whole thing, i'm still attracted to women
take 2 sec to report the dude trying to scam clueless people.
Yep
lol me with Andrew Tata
I didn't get the joke at first 😂😂
Man I got SAd by a woman an I’m still attracted. I wish I was gay.
I love that people will still boldface say destiny is transphobic when multiple conversations exactly like this exist.
They don't know conversations like this exist and are unwilling to look for conversations like this because they think Destiny is transphobic.
Also, aside from that, most people probably aren't gonna be willing to listen to 1+ hour long debate videos.
TRUE
@@WanderTheNomad while this is true. It is funny that the people that are calling destiny transphobic are the ones who do watch debate content like this from other people lol
probably bc there are levels of transphobia to ppl. i'd be called a transphobe for having issue with trans women in sports, just like destiny has been, because to them trans women should be considered women, and a superior kind of woman in certain sports, like tall people and basketball. people who don't want kids to have hrt period would be called transphobes, because they're going off the narrative that trans kids might regret what that does to their body and that reinforces the idea that trans people are socialized into becoming trans. you're always gonna be a transphobe to someone, even other trans people. i mean one of the most prominent trans women was just cancelled for liking a pro trans-medicalism post on insta.
He didn't yell at Lav calling her evil when she said transness is a delusion, he is clearly not pro-trans enough. So he is a reactionary
Watching lav have a debate is like watching a frog jump on lilypads and every lily pad she jumps on ends up sinking but she never really stays long enough to feel the consequences.
Yet every jump is as confident as the last.
Nah, she was right but kept going off on unrelated tangents and not elaborating or questioning destiny further. She just isnt a good debater at all
Pepe wins 🐸👍
You memba the part right in the beginning when she asked destiny what it feels like to be a man and he couldn't answer
I memba
Lol perfect
When lav said "Why would someone want to be a man? Like trans women are cool but ew trans man?"
Isn't that her literally appealing to her own sense of womanhood? Isn't that her internal experience of being a woman speaking?
She feels it, she just can't explain it, just like the rest of us.
@@cainification I wasn't even considering sexual orientation I guess. I thought she meant ew as in ew I don't want to be that.
@@cainification I think it's likely trans people "really are" the gender they say they are, in a physical neurological sense at the intermediate scale of structure. For example, we know pre-transition trans men (born in female body, still in female body) experience phantom pain at the same 60% rate as born eunuchs, which suggests their somatosensory cortex map has one of the male layouts. Descriptions of palpable dysphoria also bear resemblance to descriptions of body dysmorphia due to head trauma, such as revulsion toward the affected bodypart. Bottom line is, the suffering of dysphoria is probably not something they can psych themselves out of. It's a bit like saying "I don't see why people with migraines need headache pill, they should just accept their situation and learn to be happy about it."
The people we're talking about are suffering, and transition as a treatment dramatically improves their lives by their own measure. This results in them being indistinguishable from the opposite sex, which makes tying their identity to their chromosomes socially impractical. So, we switch to treating them socially according to their gender presentation and gender identity rather than their sex. Ultimately we use gender in a "social" sense on the day to day, and a "neurological" sense when talking about dysphoria and transition more clinically. Their condition seems to be in some ways related to the actual gendering of the brain, lending credence to their claims and to the idea of being able to internally sense these particular differences.
In addition, the notion of self has changed over the centuries, and these days we think of ourselves as are our minds and brains, rather than our bodies, so it's easy to imagine that a person's mind might vary along a gendered dimension while their body remains the same. This varying of the mind is more important to who you are as a person, and therefore more important to how you should be seen socially, than the particular shape of your body, which is basically just there to carry the brain around. So what I do is I say, okay, I'm going to attach the word "gender" to this dimension of sex-correlated differences in the brain, which makes gender a spectrum, and I'm going to treat people according to what they say their gender is, even if it doesn't match their sex, not because everything they say is right, but because they probably wouldn't be saying that unless there was a good enough chance that they were in some real respect transgender that it becomes best to extend the principle of charity on the matter. It's not just about being nice, it's about epistemic caution.
@@cainification what's the point of a middle ground if it only satisfies your sensibilities and not the people who are actually affected? Just because you, a passive spectator, are limited in your understanding doesn't mean people should conform to it.
@@cainification entirely fair, badly written. I just wanted to know what a "middle ground" is, because we're talking about people's deeply rooted identities, not some casual matter of opinion. Calling for a middle ground if you're not affected by a queer person's choice of affirming their identity just sounds like policing personal expression to me, is what I meant. The issue of people pretending to be what they aren't to get access to certain things is a miniscule issue that pales in comparison to the abuse men are already capable of (e.g they can already go into a women's toilet to abuse someone or go in when no one's looking and hide). -
The benefits of letting people live in accordance with their identity are massive, and you can both be pro-affirming queers and have reasoned discussions about legal implications. E.g, just because some negative outcomes are theoretically possible, doesn't mean they're not worth navigating. Lmk if I've missed your point
@@TheMightySilverback_ which is exactly the point - people are panicking about an exaggerated scare-tactic scenario to make lives harder for trans people. Women's bathrooms don't have urinals and a trans person is much less likely to assault a woman (in fact is much more likely to be assaulted) than any other woman (there are statistically more lesbians) or man (they commit most sexual assaults and already have the ability to go into a woman's bathroom to do something harmful)
Ah. The woman who definitely makes it in the streaming world because of her intellect and thoughtful conversations.
Hey, we love women
Wait, are you telling me that pretty people skate through life without having to develop intellect or a personality? I refuse to believe it
This is such a useless comment
@@SkeleTonHammer yes and she’s willing to be changed on a lot of her opinions. I think Sneak-o definitely makes more entertaining content, but I feel like most of the same complaints could be leveled at him too. These are our everyman/everywomen - they make a lot of hard claims with soft data and life experiences. Fingers crossed we still get good faith engagement a year from now and we see some good development.
can we just be real. dest only talks to her because he wants to bang her. we are safe here
59:17 I wish Destiny was wrong here, but in a way he's right. I'm a wheelchair user with a facial difference. My experience with dating in high school and college was more difficult compared to my other female friends. I felt very infantilized whereas Lav had said that when she grew up she felt sexualized. Even in a non romantic sense, me being stared at because of my face is a COMPLETELY different form of discomfort than a conventionally attractive woman being stared at by men.
I think this comment has no replies because people feel bad. I don't. You're a person, just like everyone else. You're capable of living otherwise you wouldn't have gone to high school or college. Shits gonna work out. Or it doesn't and you die either way. Stiff upper lip lads o7
This woman (one of ALL women I love) has "Live. Lav. Love." stenciled somewhere in her house.
_Live, Lav, Lol_
Honestly if I went by Lav I would also have a sign with that on it
@@nathantompson4432 just be trans dude gender doesn't matter
Lav is a toilet’s name.
Amazing
If only we could convince Steve to concede that Destiny is, in fact, a girl’s name
But it is a girl name
I know a guy who was unironically named Destiny by his parents.
@@steveng6704 *girl
stripper girl's name
Very bold of her to talk so much despite knowing so little
It's lav's MO at this point.
only 2 genders simple sadly
Yeah, I thought that was just her thing.
Because the only arguments she brings to the table are personal opinions/experiences and things she's heard from others, never actual research. Probably an ego thing that her words hold stronger than studies so there's no need or it could just be that she's too lazy to do the research
@@s3nc3r7 and what research do you want use then ? All the research that claimed non binary exists is unfalsifiable in lab testing enviroment. Not to mention the level of term pollution a lot of US psychology gave us in the last two decades. Things that not so long ago were considered to be a mix of narcisistic disorder with schisophrenia (and treatable with medication used for the second one) , are now labled as separate kind of human.
Lav Logic: "I feel this way, therfore, all women actually feel this way despite what they themselves say about their own feelings."
She might actually be the female version of Sneako the more I think about it...
Lmfao i agree completely 🤣 it’s insane how they’re brains have rotted in all the same ways but just on opposite ideologies. They literally can only comprehend things in terms of right/left wing trigger words
"I feel this way, therfore, all women actually feel this way despite what they themselves say about their own feelings." They don't say anything about their feelings, that's the entire point of this, there is not a single women on this planet who can explain how it feels like to be a women, it's all an internalized belief about how a certain gender behaves that makes people become trans.
Sneako is a radical masculinist and Lav is a radical feminist, both are maybe a tad more open minded than the most extreme points of view on both sides, but they are also both at least somewhat bigoted in their view of the world and others because they have very little introspection and almost no affective empathy.
They can understand others feelings logically and mentally if it is explained to them the right way, which is cognitive empathy. But they don’t really have much affective empathy, so they can’t actually feel others emotions themselves, or at least, they struggle to identify it, also because of low levels introspection. Also because of these things they both have a long way to go in terms of having a really developed theory of mind.
They aren’t stupid or immature per se, there are people much older and (on paper) perhaps even smarter than they are who are worse. But with that being said, I’m 5 years younger than they are and I’m not anywhere near this vapid and shallow. I’m not the most mature person ever by far but I’m already a good bit past where these two are in the psychological sense
Honestly, Lav did bring up questions that should be asked, but I agree with Destiny. He said it best by saying 'you gotta make sure that what your talking about or asking comes from a place of compassion and not bigotry or hatred'.
I'm gonna say something very condescending here. Do you ever have that homie who's going through your exact ideological development process, but is like 3 years behind you in the journey, and you can just tell they're gonna wind up with similar conclusions to yours, but there's nothing you can say to fast-track them? I feel like that's what destiny constantly has to go through. Life ain't easy as a boomer
I don’t find it condescending, I think there are just a lot of people who aren’t as mature as they think, even amongst full blown adults. It’s probably in part due to outdated views on what adulthood and maturity is supposed to be that formed over thousands of years in the past. Views that has only been challenged relatively very recently by new understanding of human psychology and social dynamics, etc.
I’m 20 but I’ve had adults tell me all my life that I seem more mature than a lot of adults. I guess you could say I have an old soul. I’ve had strangers who were twice my age tell me that I look way younger than I sound in conversation. A few have told me I sound more like I’m 30, or older, not 20. I’ve seen multiple therapists who have said similar things. Including that I’m so self-aware they literally don’t know how to help me or why I need help.
Obviously there are times where I act pretty immaturely still. But especially around strangers who have just met me, or in a professional environment, where I’m putting my best manners forward, and trying to leave good impressions on folks, I get comments like: ‘how are you not rich or famous’, ‘please run for public office’, ‘you should write a book’, etc.
I don’t really know what to say to them honestly. It’s done some harm to me too, because now it’s an expectation I place on myself to be that mature and well-developed person all the time. That probably sounds weird, but that’s just a part of how socialization works. I’m privileged in a lot of ways to have come so far on my journey, especially coming out of a rough childhood. But it’s very lonely. I can’t relate to people my age. But it’s hard to be 20 and have more in common with 30 and 40 year olds who have way more life experience.
I like Destiny because he thinks similarly to how I do, and it sounds like he had a similar experience growing up. I’m glad there’s at least a few people out there who get it.
i dont find it condescending, but at the same time ideological development progress is kinda subjective. for example i use to be really pro trans but now i think that the gender critical position is just more coherent.
i know people who are anti trans but for completely different reasons then i am. i think the line of reasonings and how we get to our positions are more important than just having the same positions as someone else. for example a gender critical gender abolitionist is going to have more in common with a gender abolitionist trans ideologue then a conservative who just hates trans women the same way they would hate feminine men
Nope, quite true. I fell down the alt-right pipeline about 5 years ago when my mental health crashed and I was very isolated (pre-pandemic), I spouted all the same crap, got roped in with a sense of community, easy/extreme answers to complicated problems, bias media and loaded language. I climbed out of it about three years ago for multiple reasons, mainly the hypocrisy, double standards and their unfair/uneducated stance on Abortion/Gay rights. My older sister has now currently fallen way down the exact same pipeline, again it happened when her mental health was at its worst (during the pandemic) and she felt isolated. She's now a Trump fan, rabidly anti-vax and has said some very bigoted shit towards LGBTQ+ people and minorities without realising how awful she sounds when she says it. She's a more extreme version of me from 5 years ago. She and I are very different people, so I can only hope she climbs out of it the same way I did - I can't help her here, I've tried. She needs to reach this point herself. I'm worried though, some people fall down there and don't come back.
I am honestly like 40% there with Lav but then she goes full into the feminist shit and I'm like I can't follow how your brain has a consistent, normal track and then all of a sudden hits a pinball minefield of decade old feminist talking points and phrases
Pinball minefield is a perfect way to describe that. These underdeveloped and old talking points are just stuck in people’s head like some sort of internalized trauma. People barely realize they’re being shaped by that thinking.
It's pretty simple, her brain always revolve around how everything should be about her, not be a problem for her privileges and how she feels about those 2 things. She knows she has privilege (for example when she say ''women are a protected class'' at around 50 minutes) and she doesn't like that trans people are ''taking'' her privilege but she isn't able to phrase it in a way that doesn't make her look like she's morally bad, so she just try to go full circle on a bad take and vomit words to try and recuperate.
I don't want to lose time and braincells listening to her, is she a terf or something?
Trans ‘rights’ shouldn’t step on female rights.
She’s 100% right. What is this obsession with old talking points being bad, as if everything has to evolve?
Women are protected, and that should never change because people feel it’s ‘old fashioned’
@@Daniel_Clem if only there was a better term for this than "fragility". I'm serious, you're describing what some academics have started to call "white fragility" (in relation to race obv) and that's just a terrible term if you want normal people to listen to what you have to say
I have an older sister - assigned male at birth - who was suicidal and an emotional wreck for the first 30 years of her life. A few years ago, she learned about what it takes to transition and she dipped her toe into it socially.
Cut to five years later, she’s the happiest I’ve ever seen her. Honestly, she seems to enjoy life more than I do as a cis male. I can’t personally pretend to understand the feeling, but I see the outcome. That outcome is positive. Fuck the haters.
Your sister is a man, observed male at birth living as a woman as a adult. Few care what adults do to themselves, if its beneficial to them without harming others its fine.
The problem is the Trans movement is after children before puberty, that is the main reason for the 'haters'. You will see more people stop tiptoeing around their language as the movement gets more aggressive and unreasonable. The stuff they are writing as medical guidance is horrific.
Wholesome, remind me of my lil bro
Older brother
@@chinogambino9375 No, her sister is a male, not a man. Being a man involves a lot of things waaaaay past biology.
@@HAHAd2 i’m going to sperg out and ask you a handful of questions cause i’m always interested in how this logic works. Maybe you can explain this to me;
this comment (the main comment, about the trans sibling) was someone expressing that their sibling was living a happier life as a woman when compared to their pre-transitioned life. Given she’d transitioned, the writer used the term “Sister” to refer to his relative who is now publicly a girl. The purpose of the comment was to provide testimony to the increase in mental wellbeing that accompanies transitioning. a reasonable, well-meaning reply under a debate with adjacent topics
your NPC reply is what i’m interested in. i feel like i’ve seen tons of your across the internet, and around the (very traditional, Italian, republican) neighborhood i used to work in. The series of thoughts that went on in your head before sending that are paywalled behind my useless liberal arts degree and i want to know how you work.
for the record, i did not like your comment and have the preconception that you are hateful towards trans people - which is why i am asking.
*Q1:* The transitioning individual was 30 y/o, so the argument couldn’t have gone down the usual derogatory pipeline relative to age, but you avoided that altogether and just actively mis-gendered the first gender-related term you saw. *Why did you feel the need to say anything?* Was it a civic duty? was it to pwn teh libzords? I feel like, maybe, it was something you were seeking out - which is even more interesting.
*Q2:* Given you watched a destiny video, i imagine you’re either a fan of destiny or a fan of Sneak-o or the likewise republican types. no shame, but i have to wonder; *Does this feel like a place where you’d be accepted for leaving derogatory comments or “truths” or whatnot about trans people, etc? Does your misgendering become more righteous if the answer is “no”?* and also, maybe you could mention how about you came to be watching this video.
and finally,
*Q3:* just generally, *do you hate trans people? or do you just disagree with them.* i hope you are of the camp of the latter, but the follow up regardless would be *was this comment driven by anger? if no, what feeling?*
thanks lol
Lav just seems to have a hard time with realising that her experience of life does not inform the reality and experience of others. Like the debates about porn she had, she cant get past the idea that alot of women and men have positive experiences with porn and sex work. It's all about her personal experience and everyone else is either wrong, brainwashed or delusional.
female solipsism
disclaimer: I love and respect women
I'm pretty sure I mostly agree with Lav about porn, but probably not for the same reasons. And I'm pretty hesitant to say this mostly because I'm never very sure what Lav actually thinks.
@@TheWentzMachine Lav actually thinks?
You just described every privileged person that lacks self awareness on earth
Just because you have a positive experience with porn or prostitution does not in any way make it ok. You say that personal experience justifies using porn but then also say that her personal experience is wrong. Very conflicting.
Lol I agree with her, I don’t have any internal experience about being a female either. I don’t feel like a female, I feel like a person. What makes somebody feel female? How do you feel female? You just FEEL that you align more with society’s depiction of a woman.
Why does your personal experience apply to everyone else? I feel intrinsically feel like a female, so following your logic, your point is invalid.
@@LarsMacReady How do you intrinsically feel like a female? Which feelings convey that?
@@chungbc2914 if they explained it would be a string of stereotypes and they will never come to terms with that.
@@chungbc2914 I just do. I wake up and feel feminine when I look at myself in the mirror getting ready for work. Many of my women friends feel the same. So if we are going off of anecdotal evidence, which your original claim of not feeling it was made off of, then I've supplied a counter that follows your logic exactly.
ask shania twain
Don't let her distract you that Destiny is a woman name.
“And a week later, nothing in this conversation mattered or changed Lav’s mind at all.”
Pretty sure lav has the mind of a goldfish. She probably went back to her default state 1 minute after this debate
"gradually,I began to hate her"
Good because she was right this whole time. Destiny kept using the word "gender" to replace sex or as a different concept depending on what suits him. The reason transgender people exists requires society to be structured for gender to exist. Transsexualism is the correct term that would exist no matter if society had gendered norms.
She isn't even a little bit masculine in her personality :V
That's the feminist definition of masculinity, not the actual difference between man and women outside of modern societies.
Look at videos of people visiting hunter gatherers and the women are feminine but _absolutely not_ demure(in comparison to the men, outside of actual combat situations) and they _absolutely do not_ accept getting less than the men.
She is taking WASP culture as if it was the standard for human behavior.
I know y'all hate on her, I actually love her. I wanna talk with her.
Lav is unbearable. Destiny is really challenging himself with this relationship.
Any guest that makes Destiny flip his lid is always worthwhile.
As a woman who performs overt femininity, much more so than probably the majority of women, it’s mind blowing that she doesn’t believe she has an internal sense of gender. If she had to cut her hair short and wear baggy clothes everywhere that mask her silhouette and alter the way people perceive her, she would undoubtedly be uncomfortable and feel an incongruence. Imagine going to a fancy restaurant and having to wear a dress shirt and slacks in a masculine fashion while the women in her midst get to wear dresses and makeup and do their hair and attract the attention she craves. Something tells me she wouldn’t be cool with that.
Don't even have to go that far, imagine if she was just treated like a man in all of her social interactions. She would probably go insane lmao.
You know long hair and skirts and pink and all these things have been guy things in the past, right? I don't think these outer trappings or wanting them is what makes you a man or a woman.
@@destinal_in_realitydamn, really? congrats man that's so clever and evolved of you lol
what about masculine or neutral women? or feminine men?
As much as I love women, Lav tests me with every sentence
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Latinas are crazy yo. Always a fun time watching 2 Latinas go at it.
Lav is actually desperate to always be the one suffering no matter what 😂
Don't forget desperate for constant attention lol but I'm pretty sure they go hand in hand 😆
lav is so uninterested in thinking idk what destiny sees in talking to her.
its like trying to argue with a replybot
I know EXACTLY what destiny sees in talking to her 😏
She tweeted she would fuck him. Either that's already happened or he's working on it by talking to her lol
Non-binary in reference to human beings does not exist.
It doesn't exist in animals so what do you mean?? Are you conflating it with intersex?
Lav with another "gender doesn't exist" but ending with "I really love being a woman, being a woman is so cool!"
By woman she means female. That statement makes perfect sense if you assume woman = female.
I like being white. That doesn't mean there's an internal feeling of being white.
Dude I feel like this is one gigantic troll: I'm hearing all about this cool conversation with that woman from Ukraine and instead a Lav conversation gets uploaded,
the person I couldn't be any less interested in.
This convo needed more mr.girl
based
Exactly. I'm not sure if he'd be willing to talk to Lav again, but it would be interesting to see a convo between them about trans stuff.
Not really. It would just devolve to a meta conversation.
Mr Girl would just say exactly all the same shit he has already said many times. It's fine that he has the same opinion across multiple conversations but I don't know why I'd want to listen to him repeat himself
No conversation ever needs mr.girl.
Lav only works when you have MrGirl to yell at her
my heart goes out to that brave chatter trying to talk about korea launching a missle over japan
I like how Destiny started the conversation off asking if they could have a conversation without yelling and he broke that rule within the first 2 minutes of talking to her lol
Can you blame him
He said she can't y'all...he knew he was going to. 😂😂😂😂😂
I think it is strange that we decided that things like... wearing a dress, playing with Barbie dolls, liking pink, cooking, etc... are considered ACTUAL traits of woman... and that gender being connected to sex is considered the social construct. These seem exactly backwards to me.
"A girl by any other name would still be Destiny" - Bill Cakes-pier
I’m assuming that this woman only has online relevance because she is attractive? Or is she a gaming savant of some form?
she is actually a decent singer/song writer
@@TheSyntaxE Thanks for the info. Had a quick perusal of her music. Being charitable, she strikes me as a diluted Lana del Ray - not the best of places to start. The output is serviceable, but the music, voice, and lyrics in combination are largely unremarkable and fairly banal, lacking a unique point of view or any significant depth. That said, good on her for hustling and leveraging her looks to achieve a career
@@TheSyntaxE """"song writer"""""
@@TheSyntaxE OMEGALUL
@@morgenmuffel5747 MLADY
The real question is at what point do you cross the line from sane to insane?
Usually when one logs in.
Sometime during your visit to the informed consent clinic
About five sentences into any Lav debate
Whenever people start to make you mildly uncomfortable.
see alot of mocking of lav, while I agree. I think that the fact that she is able to concede points and not be ignorant about her stance makes her a less frustrating guest than most of destiny's debates. I feel like she understands she is not the smartest but does try to be open about topics which makes her an interesting guest.
Being able to make concessions is without a doubt a good trait and not that common in the online space but I think it's the path the viewers have to endure to finally get there that makes it so painful.
Concession until the next conversation about this topic and she's in the exact same spot lol
But she does really concede anything, she'll just jump from point so much no one can keep track, and end up right back at the start.
Someone who says “like” 5x in just about every sentence shouldn’t influence anyone.
"why are people calling me transphobic? i just want people to do whatever makes my tummy feel better, im not an expert or anything, but everybody just do what i want"
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She always goes back to the ''it's a women's right'' or ''it's because of misogyny'' (and ''women are a protected class'' in this discussion). Her problem is not that she doesn't believe in trans people, it's that she doesn't like that ''men'' can get the same privileges she gets as a women. It make her feelings of entitlement and privileges not real, but she can't pinpoint that it's the problem (or doesn't want to because it make her a moraly bad person).
But this conversation was like entirely about her issues with female to male/nonbinary? Did we not watch the same video?
I have a feeling that you didn't pay attention to the video. You got stuck on 1 or 2 points that she made and you think that was her entire stance
@@Delkesss He probably did. Their comment just made them comfortable.
@@Delkesss what are you on aboutm the conversation wasn't about anything in particular, she kept jumping from one point to another endlessly like that one Fall Guys game mode lmao
@@Delkesss she called being trans a delusion and a mental illness multiple times, my dude. She wasn't just talking about non-binary
"what does it mean to feel like a human?" the correct response is "you can't feel like a human, it's not a feeling, you just are"
@@diegoseba12 Thers a difference between feeling like a human and defining what is a human. You fowl
@@testcase6997 Is it so hard to understand that you can feel a certain way about being a female/male but you cant feel being a male/female?
@@testcase6997 im not the same guy you were asking but do you know what a feeling is ?
and how feelings and emotions intertwine.
@@testcase6997 do you want me to wiki it or do you wanna engage in the conversation?
@@testcase6997 did you like my bonus meme thoe ?
Destiny: ”no screaming please”
Destiny 3 minutes later: screams over Lav about how you don’t feel like a human
Also he has a lady name.
I don’t get the lav hate. I think its good content. Its a refreshing change of pace when the debate isn’t so structured and people are willing to be/ admit when they are inconsistent so their worldview frameworks aren’t immutable. And she and destiny have some good banter. I don’t think it’s the most enjoyable to always have logic driven conversations. Something beautiful and human to connect in messy ways.
I agree
This conversation is much more casual
Lav probably had the starting stats to be a decent intellectual as a kid, but she pivoted into a different path for fun and now she’s trying to respec too late in life.
It's never too late to respec.
Though I guess most 90 year olds don't change their mind about much anymore but your cognitive processes are always subject to change!
As a trans woman myself I really wish there was a way to telepathically explain to people like her how amazing transition is for people like me. It's a relief and a joy more than anything I can compare it to
I don't wanna be offensive, but can you explain to me? I genuinely want to understand this, like how old were you when you transitioned? Based of my understanding of Trans people, it originates from Gender dysphoria, which I interpret as a mental illness (Which has nothing to do with your competence or intelligence), and I am still hesitant to fully support transitioning as the solution for everyone. So can you explain what that feeling was like? So I can understand better
As long as you don't bother people that want to have nothing with you
Do you cope about never achieving a proper orgasm anymore?
You aren't a woman you aren't a woman you aren't a woman
@@triplemoyagames4195 be offensive, we have to save him from himself.
Destiny really thinks there is no money to be made in trans surgeries???
Compared to any other set of procedures, medication, injuries? Yeah, it is an extremely tiny subset of the population that would qualify for such procedures, an even small amount who can afford it.
There isn't.
More money in diabetes.
@@fifiadan All those teachers and Social Workers really making big bucks huh? Hell throw soldiers in there as well.
There are people who dedicate their lives to benefitting the world without the need of vast compensation. And thankfully we have laws about providing care to people even if it only costs the hospital money.
She seems like the type of person who made up their mind when they were 16 and hasn't challenged their ideas since.
Gender isn't experienced internally, only externally. You don't feel like a man or a woman, you're treated like a man or a woman by other people. Hence why all of society must accommodate transgender people and the difficulty in doing so. It's not a live and let live situation like any other group of people, it's an everyone has to change situation. Trans activists fail because they think it's just about acceptance, but your asking far more of society than just that.
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I agree, since the root of the problem isn't transgenders. It's how men and women treat each other. As long as men and women are open at disliking each other trans people are gonna have a bad time since they'll never be treated well. Like how transmen end up invisible and transwomen get excessive heat.
You just gonna ignore the field of psychology?
@@ellewilliams5162 your personal feelings that occur due to the way society perceives you is literally dysphoria, your brain ≠ objective reality = despair. Trans individuals who do not pass, or non binary individuals will never receive unequivocal societal support, and that's just the way it will always be.
@@AlexDestroyerOfEarth I don’t think you understand dysphoria, it is’t just external, it is also based on how you see yourself
And yeah gender expression is mostly how society genders people, but it doesn’t have to be that way
As someone who doesn't really know who Lav is, I found myself agreeing (in a sense) with some of her points, but I wanted to disagree with her purely out of principle of how fecking annoying she is.
Guys I learned something fucking wild from this.
It’s 2022 guys, it’s 2022. Thank god she was here to tell me.
God I really don’t like her shes the embodiment of stubborn and wouldn’t stay on one idea makes listening to this conversation very hard and we love her random quirky disassociation when presented with a point she can’t argue against 🤪
Also “profiling can keep you safe” 🤨 wym by that
Profiling is fucked up, but also we must carefully identify any white person's unconscious biases and make sure to test them to make sure they don't harbor any views that fall in line with "whiteness" based on what we believe to be harmful 😇👌
I'm sayin when she went on her rant about profiling is a good thing and you can be transracial I was done
but can he convince her that Destiny isn't a woman's name?
Certainly hasn’t convinced me 🤔
Lav be like “I’m not transphobic” and then proceeds to go on a transphobic one hour rant
Lol so transphobic
Lav is sometimes really frustrating an annoying to listen to but no the less I want her to continue having discussions. Disappointed in how everyone is just giving in and saying fuck Lav she’s intolerable. There are much harder conversations to be had than Lav.
I guess unpopular opinion, i thought this talk was pretty good. Destiny got mad a few times, girl was pretty fun. Also Destiny made really good arguments, which i might steal in the future. But the girl was fun, for sure. Destiny made some smart and thought out points. Oh and the girl was pretty fun.
What's the Factorio mod he's playing? It looks good!
Destiny: I agree
Lav continues ranting and arguing
Destiny: yeah I agree
Lav goes even harder
Destiny (girls name btw): yes. I agree
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"I'm not transphobic"
2 seconds later
"It's an aberration"
🤔
I think she just phrased that badly, she seems to think about it being the wrong answer to people with some serious problems. Wouldn’t necessarily call that transphobic, just skeptical
I don't like her at all
Nonbinary doesn't make sense. Binary means two and only two. If there are more than two genders then there is no binary. If there is no binary then there is no such thing as nonbinary.
gender identity
noun
the unmeasurable and shifting notion of what a person thinks they may feel at any specific moment in time about a fluid and changeable
concept that either correlates with or denies their innate biological sex or alternatively corresponds with that person's estimation of their opposite sex predicated on their own personal perception of a stereotypical yet ultimately unknowable and reductive abstraction of an assumption for which they have no frame of reference to even begin
to understand.
The original word you're looking for is androgenous, yet that might get you yelled at by some people...
lav hurts my brain to listen to
Lav never engages in good conversations. It’s incredibly rare for her to say anything that isn’t absolute brain rot. It’s never worth the watch.
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That bit about how "Oh its just internalized misogyny" annoyed me a lot. People always try to link their problems to other people's problems all the way back to one big problem that we just have to get rid of all at once to enter a utopia. Lav had bad sex work experiences so her worldview revolves around patriarchy. The number of times she gets stunlocked by the contradictions in her own opinions is insane.
It's great that she seems willing to learn though and I hope she takes away critical thinking skills from this stuff
Because its an excuse..
Lav is 100% correct about the experience of gender, if I would wake up as a woman tomorrow, It would be inconvenient but I would just continue living. Perhaps I would be a lesbian but I wouldn’t care, because I don’t think about my gender ever ^^ I’m just me, and I would assume most people perceive themselves as just themselves.
I mean it’s hard to know how I would react
@@Lucaserik I have serious doubt a healthy adult would go through body altering surgery and look trans, even if they switched bodies. But just kinda live with it.
@@NeoRetroX I feel like it's such a hard things to speculate about, like how would I want my friends and family to treat me, because I definitely think that would change with my gender. Like I get what you are saying, but it feels like such an abstract argument
What about if you were to wake up tomorrow and everyone treated you like a woman, but you were still a man? What would the reaction be?
@@ceejay1476 i get what you’re trying to say here, that trans people are seen as the gender they’re not blah blah blah, so you’re asking that person how they’d feel if the same was done to them. but it makes no sense because seeing someone as a woman when they have a female body is absolutely reasonable but starting to treat a man as a woman when he’s visibly male makes no sense. your comparison doesn’t work
Women like Lav is the reason why sneako and fresh and fit exist. For every extreme there is one to meet it
the fact she was actually on a sneako stream 😭
She called Sneak BASED
" I'm a he🤔
I'm a him🧐
I'm a male🤨
I do not get into that... Mentally ill stuff "
I got excited when I read the title, clicked on it, then realized it's a debate with Lav. Nevermind.
They didnt work so hard to exist as women, they worked so hard to be treated equal. The whole point of freedom is so YOU can choose whats right for YOU.
She can't make the attempt to realize other ppl have different experiences lol
That's literally it
With every argument she has
It all leads back to the same MO
No perspective whatsoever
It's like a teenager in middle school who makes every single thing that happens to them feel like the world is fina end
21:00 Trans people are not killing themselves over lack of surgery Destiny, you know that framing is wrong. Many that get the surgery still commit suicide because they realise that the surgery doesn't fix a damn thing, it's a stressful and traumatic experience that does more harm than good.
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There isn’t any evidence for what you say
@@ellewilliams5162 It's easy to just say that and retreat to your self righteous echo chamber isn't it..
Just ignore the fact that suicide rates for trans people are almost identical for pre and post surgery. Which very strongly suggests that surgery itself does not even help in the majority of cases. Ignoore the people who's lives are ruined by them being coerced into mutilating themselves, they don't fit into your self righteous savior narrative.
She went from “I was a tomboy when I was younger” to “I felt like I was trans when I was younger” she is the embodiment of a pick me girl
I guess that kind of proves some of her points
i understand what she was trying to say cause i felt the same way as a kid. I was born male but growing up i just got along with females better. I love talking, shopping, spa, baking, babysitting, etc. I remember being in high school and during the SuperBowl i would love the day before cause we would go shopping and precook the meals etc than the day of the SuperBowl me and some girls would go to the spa and shopping. after that day i remember thinking i wish i was a female cause i love hanging out with girls no sexually, I wanted kids and a family since 8 years old, i would love to be a house wife staying home cleaning and cooking taking care of my partner. so for a long time i remember wishing i was female.
I think she was talking about the same thing growing up she was a tomboy so she felt like a boy so when she was younger she felt trans because she identify as a boy when she supposed to be a girl.
Think the point was that when you are younger you just feel bad in your skin, which could lead to unwanted transitions people will regret.
Both can be true. How hard is that to understand?
@@TheRedHaze3 no clue mate, I'm starting to feel like my views are now unacceptable even here which is weird
You can’t say you feel like a woman if you don’t know what it feels like to be the opposite and vice-versa so I believe she’s right
"I can fix her"
How many more centuries until we all collectively understand that telling an entire group they hate themselves is an Unimaginablly hateful thing to believe.
Wow, destiny morally grandstanding and calling a person hateful for questioning his narrative. Thumbs down.
Also, I thought that destiny is all about facts? But when it comes to LGBT feefees he suddenly collapses and takes everyone as given in terms of "Thats how it was told to me".
She says “what does it mean to feel like a woman” and you respond with “omg don’t roll your eyes, what does it mean to feel human?”
Why does she even need to answer that? What point did you think you were making? Were you trying to make her case stronger? One does not feel human, we just are human. That’s the point she was making with women. You don’t feel like a woman, you just are one.
If you are one, then wouldn't you necessarily always feel like one?
@@lydiawilder5996 well no, I have nothing to compare it to. I’ve lived my entire life as a man, it’s impossible for me to describe what it feels like to be a woman without appealing to how society views and treats women.
@@swampysix9375 You don't have to understand what you are feeling to feel that thing.
@@swampysix9375 In this context the word feel doesn't mean "I think this"
Both Destiny & Lav taking Ls. Neither have coherent arguments.
My take is that non-binary and gender is effectively used to describe other hormonal phenomena. It's not useful to confuse sex/hormones/societal conditioning all into one thing with this new 'gender' idea which really has become a lexical issue where nobody agrees or is arguing about the same thing.
Ultimately, each person has a different hormonal profile - that influences how you feel about your sexual orientation and predetermines some of your behavioural actions.
There is a certain level that society and environment also dictates your actions and behaviours.
We assign masculine traits to testosterone derived actions, and feminine traits to oestrogen derived actions. Your environment may push you one way or another a little from your natural baseline, but majoritively hormones seem to influence this (otherwise why would trans people take HRT?).
How you feel is based on this. People who are relatively androgynous in their hormonal profile and upbringing are probably more likely to be confused and associate with 'non-binary'. If being 'non-binary' feels like an issue, then HRT is needed preferably in the direction of which their sex associates (men -> TRT, fem -> OET). IMO non-binary/asexualaity is probably similar.
As for trans women for example, they were probably already growing up with feminine behavioural patterns, which over time influenced their hormonal profile and self-perception, but not enough to actually become a women/man respectively, so more HRT is needed to transition. Why trans 'happens' IMO, is really a tale of social conditioning and slotting into opposite sex roles early on, enjoying the benefits, and then feeling psychological dissociation from your birth determined sex physically.
I don't think any deviation from birth sex is healthy, but, if these people feel happier with HRT and transitioning, then so be it. Though looking at the data, they are still often very depressed after transition, so we can effectively say physical transition is only a symptom of something psychological going on which is not solved.
It's a very complicated issue, but ultimately I see 'gender dysmorphia' as a mental deviation into opposite sex behaviours formed early on in childhood by socialisation NOT hormones, that causes a dissociation from their body at some point because it doesn't match up with what they want to be physically to be accepted into society, being a feminine man or masculine woman.
TLDR: Gender is a lexical problem that lumps hormonal/sexual/societal conditioning phenomena into one word so it's impossible to discuss it - but ultimately it's a conditioning issue from an early age which turns into a hormonal issue later paired with physical dissociation in the worst cases, which is where transsexuality occurs. Depression from that never fully alleviates for most because they still can't identify with a new body they never had before even if it is congruent with what is fem/masc.
This whole debate can be summarized briefly:
Destiny: "Let's consider X -> Y -> Z"
Lav: "What you say makes sense, but there are also annoying people online who say X -> Y -> Z, so I have no choice but to disagree on principle"
These comments are extremely cringe. Yes she dismissed the entire trans community by saying they are "ill", which is pretty stupid, but aside from that she said some good stuff in a pretty eloquent way. Those of you who can't hear a woman talking might actually be misogynistic
I don't know how he hasn't hit on this before, but there really doesn't seem to be an *internal* feeling of gender.
Destiny has talked about this before, but it seems like there are two types of 'gender dysphoria'.
There is the dysphoria a trans person feels when they feel there are certain societal expectations put upon them that they don't meet. Like if they're a transwoman and they are good at sports and they aren't very tough or aggressive (and have no desire to be that way). *That is external.* If this person were raised in a vacuum, they would not feel this, because it comes solely from the expectations of others not matching their self-image. This is gender, but since it is external, it is not an internal feeling of gender. Because gender is, in the end, a social construct.
Then there is the dysphoria a trans person feels when they look in the mirror, at their own body. Like if they're a transman and they have an hourglass figure. *This is not gender.* It is your sex. It is how your body was created.
Where is the *internal* feeling of gender? I would say it doesn't exist. I would say that there is your biological sex, which is internal, and there is gender, which is external (how others perceive you).
I mean, we didn't even have words for this shit until a few decades ago. Gender and sex were synonyms. Woman meant 'adult human female'.
gender has always just been the social aspect of our sex. the first point you bring up is why terfs like jk rowling have somewhat of a point, how can we be sure *some* trans men aren't transitioning because of social stigmas against women performing typically masculine activities or behaving in ways society deems masculine?
@@fifiadan Yes you would still see differences between men and women, but that is not an expression of gender, that is merely natural trends in personality that we see in men and women.
After all, emotional men are still men, and logical women are still women.
What separates men who aren't masculine (tough, dominant, logical, etc) from transwomen who are?
Nothing, other than self-identification and the aforementioned gender dysphoria.
So again I say: there is no *internal* feeling of gender.
how about 90% of the population that doesn't think about it and just lives normally lol
@@testcase6997 I don't really care if scientists disagree with me about shit they have no evidence for, but do they even disagree? It's not like I'm denying gender dysphoria exists.
Your comment is so ironic. "Someone who just busts into conversations you know nothing about"
That seems to be exactly what you're doing.
@@testcase6997 ???
I'm just someone who's critical of the left's current understanding of gender, because it doesn't make any fucking sense.
I'm guessing you think that if we start thinking too hard about this stuff, we will end up invalidating trans people and gender dysphoria or something.
Don't have much confidence in your beliefs, do you?
I actually kind of agree with people not having some internal sense of gender. People who identify as non binary and have no body disphoria seem to just have issues with gender norms and self image to me. Maybe I’m wrong, but in any case Lav is the last person who should take a stand on this.
Her brain has feminist sized holes in it which are filled with man hating, conspiratorial theories that makes it completely impossible for her to have an independent/exploratory/curious thought of her own. *shudders*
I don't really get his reasoning.
Every step of the way he's just describing the things we've heard a million times before, theres no real arguments against her very valid points.
What I can't understand is why people are accepting of changing gender/sex, but you cannot change your race.
Yeah what I just said is really stupid, but if you think about it changing your sex holds more significance than changing your skin colour; one is changing your hormones so you can be viewed differently, the other is changing the colour of your skin, not nationality/ethnicity/culture, the colour of your skin.
Since changing skin colour would have less affect on yourself/others, why is it looked down on compared to changing your hormones?
The argument is that there is no internal feeling of race. People aren't killing themselves for feeling like being a different race.
@@TheSyntaxE so the entire argument hinges on "people killing themselves"?
I do not believe that there is internal feeling of gender. And Destiny's argument was stupid "how does it feel to be human go"
Yeah...that was her point... you are human because you are biologically human not because you feel human.
@@TheSyntaxE that's not my question, I was asking why it is pretty much unanimously looked down upon to change the colour of your skin compared to changing your sex which would hold less significance.
To dumb it down even further, I'm making an ultimatum of "If you are accepting of non-binary, you must also do the same with people who change their skin colour"
The analogy would be with "racial identity" and "racial norms", but the reason why it isn't seen as the same is that things like "racial norms" are way more nebulous.
The comment section has been the worst part of this Destiny arc. This is one of the more interesting videos he has had recently and the comments are just righty losers saying
"women make me want to be misogynistic."
Or the conservative standard of just decrying academia for being wrong because they disagree with the commenters.
True, but I think that's the idea. Would any rightoids have even listened to this talk 6 months ago?
Lav: I think we shouldn't let children transition
Also Lav: Except for trans women
I could talk about this for two hours
Well, the argument was pretty solid. I don't really see the problem.
@@dododu3412 the problem is its completely wrong
@@dododu3412 nothing to lose, just multiple years in a body that feels not your own. While female puberty starts generating female body traits just as a man’s does. It being easier to pass later doesn’t mean suffering should occur. And if that girl wanting to be a man develops large breasts, wide hips etc they may now have to seek excessive surgery to pass as male. Instead of suppressing those as well. Which means more trauma, and maybe the unaliving that occurs is a result of the 5 years being told you can’t transition creating a fucked mental space that the late transition is too late to work against. Especially if in the course of being babysat while being told to wait, they do things that leave long term marks and signs of that trauma.
@@dododu3412 Well, one problem is that, if adolescents are started on puberty blockers early enough, it can stunt the development of their genitalia. And for transwomen, having a vaginoplasty means needing plenty of flesh downstairs to turn inside out & stitch together. So, if there is not enough genital skin, then grafts have to be harvested from other parts of the body. For example, colon grafts can be used bc they don’t shrink. However, one complication of colon vaginoplasty is bowel obstruction. Besides the fact that our gonads produce most of our sex hormones & our endogenous sex hormones support our other organs (e.g. brain, pancreas, heart), so a trans adolescent will become a life-long patient blah, blah, blah…
@@rangerofalinos Transmen need “excessive” surgery anyway. Many of them have to get hysterectomies bc testosterone atrophies their female genitalia & puts them at risk of sepsis. Hysterectomies have been linked to increased risk of dementia & I don’t think that’s going to do wonders for their mental health either. Plus, phalloplasties require multiple surgeries (&, sometimes, multiple corrective surgeries bc of urethral complication rates).
I am starting to feel that the (non) gender question is more linguistic than mental. Somehow cultures with out neutral gender in their language does not have such need for mental expression of "non binary".
Please please tell me you will upload the conversation with the ukraine girl. She deserves to be in the main channel way more than that tiktoker.
I think a big roadblock in these conversations is that gender as a concept, gender as an experience, and gender as an expression are all wrapped up as one thing- despite being quite different in the way they are internally/externally determined and influenced.
Why I wish the trans community would break gender stereotypes but all they do is entrench it. I have heard to many say I'm z woman cause I like pink & dresses. If stereotypes are broken. Ppl can just be themselves without having to box themselves into man & women & nonbinary.
Destiny really didn't convince me that there is such a thing as non binary. I have to agree with Lav, I don't know what it means to feel like a male or female. The argument put forward by Destiny was hardly anything but buzzwords and non answers.
And the concept that you can not fit the mold of either makes no sense, even if you participate in all social roles equally that doesn't mean you're "non binary", it just means you're open to participation in all roles. We put far too much stock in personal feelings when things like this are kind of placed upon you by society/community.
@@AlexDestroyerOfEarth I think you almost get it, if you participated in all social roles equally, and your sex was between male and female physically, you could never be a "binary" man or woman. To be binary would necessitate you being 100% on either side of the spectrum. To be anywhere on the line except for an endpoint would mean that you are non-binary.
@@lydiawilder5996 in that case everyone is. It's logically unsound. Even the type of person you posit could never possibly exist.
@@lydiawilder5996 so before you type smug things like "I think you almost get it" have logical reasonings behind your statements.
@@AlexDestroyerOfEarth Yes they could. A person could have a 50/50 split of male and female primary and secondary sex characteristics. And you're right, most people are NB by default, but choose one or the other.
Every Destiny comment section is filled with transphobes that worship Destiny, a very pro Trans commentator.
Goes to show how consistent transphobes are in their ideology /s
Destiny wants to hook up w her soooooo bad lol
August uploading this video instead of the Ukrainian girl is a miss play
Lav is so unintentionally funny its insane
Lav is by far the worst guest destiny consistently has. I miss the days of Max....
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I love how Destiny has to come in and "fix" everyone's arguments when an incorrect person is making the rounds and nobody can be logical during debates.
So with Destiny's point there, only bisexual and gay men can be attracted to transwomen.