Kathleen Stock and Richard Dawkins Question Modern Gender Identity
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- The savage missiles hurled at Kathleen Stock in the stocks of Sussex University gives the lie to the pretense that her tormentors should be pitied as an oppressed minority who just want to peacefully get on with their life. I’ve long admired her gentle courage in the face of vicious bullying. When we finally met at the Dissident Dialogues Conference in New York this May, I felt an instant affinity. It was a pleasure to conduct the following interview.
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I remember as a 13 year old reading about the Salem Witch trials and wondering how anyone could have believed that or how the girls could make these accusations and now it's just crystal clear.
I've thought the same.
Not relavant tho. Except thrtes a witch hunt against trans people
I'm so glad left wing people are talking about this. This isn't a left vs right issue. This is about fighting irrational ideas.
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
Left is pro LGBT
@ferriveiro3101 how about looking the current research instead of making stuff up.
@@christinadodd5780trans epidemic? You do realise there is 400,000 transgender people in the UK in a population of 70 million right?
You've just been suckered in by the algorithm.
Speak to trans people. Speak to actual people like me. There is no epidemic. Just a small amount of people like me wanting to live their lives in peace.
the only irrational ideas are that trans is an ideology and that gender is binary.
Kathleen Stock is amazing. More Progressives should listen to her. Just drop Gender Ideology. It is not helping anyone.
There is no such thing as 'gender ideology'. Trans people are people
@@moif_velocitaOf course there is. If you think women have penises , thats called Gender Ideology. Where did I say they are not people?
@@moif_velocita Yes, people under a mistaken pretense are people. No one said they weren’t.
Teaching the gender unicorn to grade school children. Is teaching a religious ideology to children. @@moif_velocita
a brave woman speaking about this real issue
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
I'm in an area and industry in the US where this is prevalent. As an older progressive white male I was pretty much "live and let live" thinking there's no real harm in this. Eventually I began to look at it as maybe just selfishness that could border on narcissism. A person says they are trans and the entire surrounding world must accept and bend to their whim. When the "trans" colleague arrives in the morning, everyone is on eggshells worrying might they say something wrong. Change your lifetime of language least you make some newspeak faux pas or "misgender," a crime worse than murder. Seriously, that kind of fear, what a power to have over people. One day someone railed about J.K. Rowling. I wondered at what she said that could bring forth such venom. I eventually found her now famous post, "dress however you please, call yourself whatever you like....." I was completely taken aback at the absurdityt of the attacks. That sent me down the rabbit hole where I discovered Maya Forstader, Helen Joyce, Stella O'Mally, Kathleen Stock, Sall Grover, Graham Linehan, and many more people speaking intelligently on the subject -- and suffering for that speech. I also discovered my ignorance about "trans healthcare". Turns out it's not flu shots and blood tests, but drastically altering bodies, including children. "Trans healthcare", Orwellian words.
One sad thing about getting informed on this subject is that my stand now puts me on the same side as rabid right-wingers with whom I have no other common ground. I'm now the lone goat standing off to the side from the screaming right wing-sheep led by equally vile activists as the people promoting this contagion. I hope the young people here in the US begin the shift back to reality as is happening in other places.
Well said. I am in Australia and have had almost identical experiences. From the "live and let live" to being the leftish liberal now seemingly siding with the rabid right-wingers. And the rabbit hole experience continues - I have just finished reading my eighth book on this madness with Judith Butler's latest one full of incoherent, sometimes impenetrable gobledygook being the last one. I believe we live in uniquely stupid times.
Same experience for me - I feel really uncomfortable being on the same side as the right wingers on anything given their track record on social issues. However the data seems to be very poor overall and particularly in the area of youth gender care, certainly not sufficient to justify the medical interventions that are being presented as a treatment. There seems to be a significant medical scandal brewing in youth gender care.
@@IslandArt61 Left-wing and liberal are not the same things. These left-wing nutcases are closer to fascist or soviet communists.
I’m a classic liberal. Truth overrides all ideologies.
you literally admit to falling down a rabit hole yet you dont see how bizzare your views are? lmao
Me too! I'm standing in the same place but somehow the left are indeed out in left field and I'm surrounded by rightwingers with whom I agree on only the one thing. Women don't have a penis and they do have a womb.
I am in the position of being afraid to say anything to my 34 yr old daughter, who is transitioning. Her brother did and now she refuses to speak to him and we live in the same house. I would maybe say something, but she has a 4 yr old child and I am scared that I'll be cut off and the poor kid is trapped with someone who suddenly has decided that she's a man and it's become the most important part of her life now. The support and affirmation she receives from her friends, and the online community is insane. All these friends, by the way are also trans, non-binary and/or gender fluid in some way. Nobody can criticize or even ask a question without being blasted with " You're transphobic" instantly. I am tippy toeing around my own house, trying to not mis-gender my clearly female child, lest I get another tongue-lashing.
I feel for you, and sending the best wishes possible with my whole heart. Be strong. I have no idea how will everything turn out, but your grandchild will need you in any case.
@@dvanaestcestica1135 I will continue to tread carefully and so far my grandchild seems unbothered. Thanks for your kind words.
Being afraid to confront the insanity of the idea of being 'born in the wrong body' is the problem so many well-meaning adults have. People seem to be unable to 'think it through' as to what the future results will be, both for the distressed individual, & for society at large. Kids being on Social Media helped the spread of this social contagion.
My straight and usually sensible 41 year old daughter has stopped talking to me because she is almost a trans activist and I told be what a falsity it all is. Trans is a disasterous - and dictatorial - ideology.
@@baronesswithabrush1991 By what you say here, I'm assuming you don't have children who are teenagers or older, otherwise you'd understand how difficult is to communicate with them on the topics they are passionate about or personally involved in, when you have an opposing view. It's very difficult, and it's so easy to go totally counterproductive to your own goal, and make them shut you out from their life. Also, the OP here says their daughter is 34, so kids being influenced by social media is not really applicable here.
Bravo to Kathleen for standing up and talking about this. It costs a lot to do this in today's climate, but it sadly needs to be done. Thank you
@SiRushBass she's not qualified not qualified not qualified not qualified
@@KickRocks-me7hh if you say so. However ad hominem is a poor counter argument.
@@SiRushBass how is thst an ad hominem? Do you understand that term?
I take that as no.
As a gay women and philosopher, a member of 2 marginalised groups disproportionately negatively impacted by trans gender activism and the ideology underpinning it, plus being an academic trained in deep critical thinking and exposing the flaws within ideology not only IS she qualified she is uniquely more qualified then most to provide much needed critique here!!!
Are you kidding me? Do you know how much money this women has made since leaving or rather not being good enough any longer to be in academia?
She hasn't lost anything. She's doing better than ever attacking people like me with no evidence but her own distaste and ego.
The utter look of disbelief on Professor Dawkins face every now and then is excellent t-shirt material.
Kathleen Stock is my hero, thank you for having her on the show
Funny thing is that Western countries fid this to themselves. You do t see this nonsense in Africa, India, Arab or Asian countries etc. It's where the WHITE people are. Even in South Africa, LGBTQ is heavily concentrated in WHITE areas. Its a majority black country and gay people live in the whitest part in the Western Cape. So tell me who the real problem is? It's women who look like her that created Feminism
Ah, so you have a hero whose superpower is making controversial statements about gender and sexuality? I bet your idea of a sidekick would be someone who starts debates at every family gathering. Who needs saving the day when you can save face with awkward discussions instead, right?
You like ignorant influencers
How does anyone know what it feels like to be something else? I can only feel what it like is to be me. I can tell how others are feeling in a general sense, but to actually feel like being a x if I am not x doesn't make sense to me.
Exactly
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
@@christinadodd5780 chill with your transphobia
@mv8908 uh, phobia means "intense or irrational fear of something." I don't fear trans people at all 😄 but I do fear kids being indoctrinated into believing they're trans and their bodies being messed up by hormones they dont need or their bodies being mutilated.
Did you know in the last few years there's been a 4000% increase in teen girls becoming trans boys? Why is there such an increase in teen girls, and why aren't we then seeing a lot of adult women become tran men? Why is this only happening in Western countries? Did you know kids can get started on puberty blockers or hormones after one Dr's appt? Feminine boys are being told they are trans women. Tomboys are being told they're trans boys. It's more appropriate to be trans than be gay or a lesbian. How sad. I believe there's legit trans people, but I believe most have been indoctrinated, are gay, or have autogynephilia.
I care about the kids.
@@mv8908 I menstruated for 40 years. Can a biological male give me a description of how that feels please? How I felt the day it started? Or how it feels when it stops?
I'm always impressed by how calm and cool Kathleen Stock remains in the face of all the flack she's taken and the general idiocy she is up against. What an icon.
Funny thing is that Western countries fid this to themselves. You do t see this nonsense in Africa, India, Arab or Asian countries etc. It's where the WHITE people are. Even in South Africa, LGBTQ is heavily concentrated in WHITE areas. Its a majority black country and gay people live in the whitest part in the Western Cape. So tell me who the real problem is?
being ignorant isnt cool tho
@@KickRocks-me7hhIgnorant about what?
@@dalriadaskillen gender identity
I am a Great Admirer of Kathleen Stock ~ ~ Also Great Credit to Richard Dawkins for taking on this Gender Identity Stuff.
He's about 7 years too late, but sure....
Define gender identity
@@KickRocks-me7hh Male Chromosomes = Male.
Female Chromosomes = Female.
Trust The Science.
@@KickRocks-me7hhAn ephemeral delusion fabricated wholecloth to assert one's narcissism in a publicly acceptable manner supported by civil rights law, institutional fiat, and new religious dogma.
@kickrocks what is its intention?
Thank god for intelligent people like Kathleen Stock and Richard Dawkins standing up to this ideology.
Why did
It take him so long to stand up though?
@@MultipleGrievance He’s been talking about this for years.
wow standing up to people who just want to be themselves, you're so tough big guy
@@ralphwiggum3463 That’s not the issue and you know it.
@@ralphwiggum3463 women having to call male r@pists she, women being forced out of their jobs for knowing that men are not women, women being physically attacked for standing up for their own rights, gay people being called bigots for not wanting to date or sleep with the opposite sex, advocating for experimental treatments now banned by the NHS...the list could go on and on as to why this about more than just people wanting to bE tHEmSeLvEs. How tf are they being themselves when they require everyone else to pretend or they crumble into a puddle of sadness?
Thank you for these words and ideas. Very clear wording. Thank you.
I left the Humanist Society when they took your award away. I was a Humanist Celebrant.
That might have been the best thing to come out of this whole trans insanity.....
It's proved once and for all that religion is unnecessary
For the propagation of a dangerous ideology.
The new atheists as well as the humanists were the first to fall to this new mind virus.
So was I!!
Dr. Stock is right there with Ms. Rowling as a modern day heroine worthy of everyone's respect and admiration.
And Helen Joyce.
And Kellie Jay Keen
Kathleen Stock has expressed support for Nina Power, a nazi
@@jonjonson-dd7gqNazis showed up to KJK's rally in Melbourne. They said they see themselves as the vanguard of her movement
@@jonjonson-dd7gq - absolutely!
"Convoluted' is the most generous word I could use to describe Judith Butler's writing.
I'm not sure Ms. Butler could find her own arse - if she used both hands. : /
Yes. I suffered through reading her latest book. Almost all of it is convoluted, imprenetrable gobbledygook.
@@281992pdr I sacrificed my 4 remaining brain cells to finish it. Alas, being well-informed bears a heavy price.
People with nothing sensible to say use words like she does to obscure the nonsense they are writing behind a veneer of word salad. How anyone ever took her seriously is beyond me, but I think that says more about academia than anything.
To quote Chomsky, “There are lots of things I don't understand -- say, the latest debates over whether neutrinos have mass or the way that Fermat's last theorem was (apparently) proven recently. But from 50 years in this game, I have learned two things: (1) I can ask friends who work in these areas to explain it to me at a level that I can understand, and they can do so, without particular difficulty; (2) if I'm interested, I can proceed to learn more so that I will come to understand it. Now Derrida, Lacan, Lyotard, Kristeva, etc. --- even Foucault, whom I knew and liked, and who was somewhat different from the rest --- write things that I also don't understand, but (1) and (2) don't hold: no one who says they do understand can explain it to me and I haven't a clue as to how to proceed to overcome my failures. That leaves one of two possibilities: (a) some new advance in intellectual life has been made, perhaps some sudden genetic mutation, which has created a form of "theory" that is beyond quantum theory, topology, etc., in depth and profundity; or (b) ... I won't spell it out.”
I could listen to Kathleen Stock all week. I love her use of clear, precise language and her calm and reasoned manner. So enjoyable.
two of my favourite people who talk in straight lines - a balm for the mind
They are siding with the literal Nazis.
Well put. I always feel like Kathleen Stock puts the fresh air back in the room. She gives me hope that sense will prevail eventually.
Two of the smartest people on the planet. Love this adult conversation.
not very smart to be dishonest.
@@KickRocks-me7hh Where’s the dishonesty?
Gender identity crises likely proves that Darwinism with its focus on the biological as primary is wrong as people have identities that are not dependent on biology but on their sense of selfhood.
Two of the smartest people on the planet speaking into two of the shittiest microphones on the planet.
I hope you realise all you said was "I'm so glad someone is supporting my pre-existing believes". Referring to their intelligence is only you trying to relate that to yourself. Neither shine on this topic certainly.
This is so complex and well stated and covers so many aspects I can’t tell you enough how great this conversation was. ❤❤
Thank you Kathleen Stock for saying the truth about women’s safety and the unfairness in sports.
Thanks to both of you.
Pure logic. It's very important we campaign to end this madness and rampant child abuse.
Always good to hear Kathleen Stock. Thanks!
'Cult-like Insanity' perfectly describes the Trans positions...
We know what the biological mechanisms are. Intersex people exist.
@@BrotherAlpha Intersex people are either male or female dingus. Primary organs determine sex, not secondary traits.
Tell me you’re not a biologist without telling me you’re not a biologist 😂
@baronesswithabrush1991 no. It doesn't. You just spend too much time in these confirmation circle jerks.
Actually read about medical science when it comes to sex, it's development, the actions and effects of hormones, cross hormones, the relation between intersex and gender.
Instead of throwing buzz words around like cult like and ideology at a small minority of people. Why don't you actually just listen to them?
How do you expect to learn about 'trans positions' from people who refuse to even talk and listen to them? To people who have no first hand or medical experience in the field.
Dont pretend in anyway that you are some kind of intelligent person when you comment in this absolute mess of confirmation bias and when someone points out all the science that makes you wrong like the literal bimodality of sex have the decency to stop calling trans people a cult. Do you honestly believe you are being a good person here? Really?
Glad to hear the two of you in conversation.
We need more of this. An excellent, informed and nuanced conversation.
hardly
@@KickRocks-me7hh It's okay to be a cult mouthpiece. I'm sure most of your relationships are conditional on such a grift.
@@KickRocks-me7hh “people don’t agree w me, BADDDDD”
@dennisd3258 I only agree with things that have high probability of being true.
Kathleen got this spot on, when talking about the evolution of the interpretations of gender. This dualistic "If I feel like a man/woman then I must be treated as one" is very much designed to be similar in tactics to religions. You simply can't argue against it because it's a "belief" or a "feeling" and it's been taken that way on purpose by its proponents.
Explain intersex people.
@@BrotherAlphaDo you think intersex people refute the binary? They reinforce it lmao. They aren’t some intermediate sex. You can categorize them as male or female.
@@BrotherAlpha Nature is not perfect, it makes mistakes. .02% are intersex. They often choose to have the disorder altered so that they conform to male or female. That is because they know sex is binary - i.e. 99.89% are born male or female. The thing speaks for itself.
@@BrotherAlpha Some are men who have developed abnormally and some are women who have developed abnormally. We usually say they have a disorder of sexual development because intersex doesn't make sense.
youre deluded
The pure, clear light of reason. It was a delight to watch this.
You were talking about the ages, in what age these transitioning interventions start: The American detranistioner activist Chloe Cole began transitioning at 12 years old. "In February 2018, she was prescribed the puberty blocker Lupron at age 13. A month later, she started testosterone injections, which she continued for two years. Cole had a double mastectomy at age 15 in June 2020.." So at a VERY early age!
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
Kathleen is brilliant 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I wish she had her own programme, on general ethics and philosophy
I think a problem these days is that crazy people are being normalized. So as a whole we become more crazy which also includes politics. It is just another step towards total destruction.
Left-hemisphere dominance. On it's own the left-hemisphere is delusional. Dr Iain McGilchrist.
Always excited when I see a Kathleen Stock video is up. Likewise, always excited when a Richard Dawkins video is up. So can't express my excitement when I saw a video featuring both of them.
Imagine a world where these two were the heroes of most people
A sane, rational and convivial conversation between two fully formed intellects. A pleasure to listen to, and an example of the internet at its best.
its dishonest. dawkins to stick to religion
@@KickRocks-me7hhHow is it dishonest?
@@jonjonson-dd7gq saying there are only two genders
@@KickRocks-me7hh That’s correct. Sex is binary. They’re using gender as a synonym.
@@KickRocks-me7hh One again. 99.98% of people are born male or female. Even in remote indigenous communities where a pregnant woman goes alone to a private place and gives birth there is no professional there to "assign" birth. The child has 99.98% chance of being born male or female. That is what happens. Everywhere, about .02% of people are born intersex and even some of these have male or female gametes. Stats 101 will tell you that on any graph .02% are outliers. Outliers do not form a continuum, spectrum or trend. When men claim to be women, and vice versa, it is a preference, currently a fad, and some 90% of blokes who participate in the delusion choose - despite in most western countries NHS/Medicare available funding for surgery, in many militaries surgery being free and private insurance plans covering it - to keep their male tackle. Sex is obviously binary, gender is the confected, stereotypical and superficial traits that many women fought so hard to dismantle. Now the reference points for all transgender people and even straight trans activists and ideologues are male and female.
As a sociologist, I understand gender and gender roles to mean how society expects a biological woman or man to behave in a particular culture; and, those expectations vary from society to society. Unfortunately it seems that gender and sex have been conflated to our detriment.
Thanks for a very interesting conversation.
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
We urgently need to ungender the question "Know thyself," thus "Who am I as a person?"
gender is a hardwired. its also a spectrum.
@@KickRocks-me7hhhow can you watch this and then say gender is a spectrum?
@@KickRocks-me7hh Explain the criteria for "woman gender". How do women supposedly feel or behave? What feelings do women have that men cannot etc. Should be easy for you seeing as you are an expert.
@ambientjohnny gender is an infinite spectrum. It's a neurological process.
I'm no expert, where did you get that idea? Strange thing to say.
Gender is a very profound part of who you are. It's a fundamental evolutionary trait.
How you define man or woman depends on the context.
People have many feelings and thoughts in common, but gender is hardwired, as opposed to a learnt behaviour.
@@KickRocks-me7hh So you believe in something you cannot even provide ONE defining trait of? What do you even believe if you can't explain any specific details about it? How can you possibly understand and believe something if you can't even begin to explain it to other people beyond vague entirely unspecific language.
Do you realise you have literally not explained what being a man or a woman is according to you in any way at all. Why is it so hard? You are out here trying to lecture other people about being wrong - ok, well provide an actual counter-definition then. Why is it always so hard for you lot to actually define the terms you feel society must accept? Why can't you just answer the question? Since all of you believe there is some way a male can "feel like a woman", "behave like a woman" etc. - how can it be so hard to articulate what that means???
This "Do you want a living daughter or a dead son?" mantra is perhaps intended to provide legal protection to the doctors and surgeons tasked with implementing trans pathways. In order to justify the disregarding of things such as the patient's inability to consent (due to being too young), and the removal of perfectly healthy body parts, the spectre of a crisis condition had to be created high up in the medical hierarchy. Doctors then have the defence of "We were just following the established medical guidelines we were given".
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. Their last episode was eye-opening!
If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
As many suicides before Transition as after so its not an argument.
Wonderful interview and you do make great points! I especially like the one comparison to race and how race is more of a spectrum than sex. The fetish point is very important and needs to be addressed
Two voices of reason. 🤘
how so?
@@KickRocks-me7hh Listen to what they say.
@uriituw why dont you tell me. You have no clue do you.
@KickRocks-me7hh you're not saying anything
@@3brenm I'm asking why you think they are the voice of reason. You don't seem to know.
Sad that this video won’t even show up on my watch history timeline unless I click on it. Gotta love TH-cam for trying to silence two people having a lovely respectful intellectual conversation. Keep doing your hard work!
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
Kathleen is saying exactly the right things on a lot of topics.
She is also telling the truth about fetish and sexual preferences and having these things allowed into female spaces, changing rooms etc.
People need to hear that and have a decent disussion about it. Only when we have the whole picture, decerned decisions can be made.
I have great admiration for her.
💯💯 I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
@@christinadodd5780 i have read the WPATH files article from Michael Schellenberger and it amazes me how many countries still continue to apply those “standards”?
I wish whoever helps Prof Dawkins with the technology for this could set up the sound properly. These conversations are so important and deserve good sound.
Im hoping a director reads this. Those microphones are side address mics not end address. Your audio will improve if you set them up as such.
Yes! The audio quality was so bad. I got stressed listening to it. And not bc of the content.
I could be wrong but those mics look like AT2020 cardioid polar mics, which should be fine. However, the poor audio sounds like the recording device is not using these mics, perhaps the wrong device is selected and defaulting to the laptop internal mic instead? If they are in use, then Richard and Kathleen should speak closer into them as these mics need some driving and to reduce the impact of that boxy sounding room - given there doesn't seem to be any sound deadening material in that room.
edit at 38:10 the sound improves!
@@justmy2cents652 You get stressed THAT easily ;)
@@jenesisjones6706 i know lol as far as I'm concerned I can hear them talking and that is fine to me. What would these people have done in the days of AM radio?
Agree, this is pretty poor, by folks who don't understand how to present information. Feels like a lot of words, very little content.
Intelectually stimulating conversation between two distinguished, humble and highly intelligent people. Thank you both for continuing to speak up about these rancid delusions against the brainwashing of naive and vulnerable people! Thank you infinitely 🎓🖤
No one owns their pronouns, or has the right to demand others use certain pronouns for them. Pronouns belong to the user not the receiver of the pronoun. Freedom of speech.
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
A fascinating, and thought provoking conversation thanks.
Wonderful conversation - shame about the audio quality. Thank you to both of you!
"Gentle courage" is such an accurate description of Kathleen Stock.
Have you heard of Dr John Money, of not look him up . And also the book The boy who was raised as a girl. This story horrifying , in the end most of the family committed suicide mainly because John money.
I think he coined the term 'Gender Identity' 🙄
Yes, it was Dr. John Money who started the gender meaning for humans. I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
Book is about David Reimer by John Colapinto, As Nature Made Him
Standing Applause 👏
I spent 30 years as an Evangelical Pastor and walked away 6 years ago after reading The God Delusion, along with other books to help me come to terms with having spend nearly 50!years believing in a mythical man made religion. So genuinely, THANK YOU! My life has greatly improved! Keep speaking and writing!
That quote from Judith butler was the most pompous, needlessly fancy statement I think I've ever seen from one of these deluded people. It screams "I'm better than you, because I am more morally pure, and I can put a lot of syllables in my words!"
I’m in awe of Kathleen but I do not have the confidence in Keir Starmer’s very recent U turn on Women’s rights that she has! Labour is drenched in Trans Activists who are promoting self ID and are tossing safeguarding to the side! I so hope she’s right and I’m wrong! Great discussion! I shall recommend it to those with little awareness of the issues at hand.
Agree, I don't trust a thing he says as he changes his mind every week it seems
Since when do scientists care about feelings when being scientists?. Anyone can care about feelings but not when you are being a professional scientist
Notice the complete lack of these trans activists commenting in a sensible and intelligent way on here.
I noticed!
The only thing they can say is the usual mindless chant: "Trans women are women, trans women are women!"
…anywhere.
Try me.
@@281992pdr I haven't reported any of your comments
Dear Prof. Dawkins, unfortunately the sound quality of your podcasts are often low. I recommend hiring a sound engineer or a music producer to ensure the recordings are of high quality. In this instance, I am guessing the microphones were too far from the mouths, but I could be wrong.
I have already pre-ordered my tickets for show
Great talk. Keep strong 💪
The sound is terrible. It sounds like you are at the end of a tunnel and underwater at the same time. Please consult with someone who has expertise with audio production. Thanks Richard.
Additionally didnt like the choice of using an all white background its quite off-putting..
I think this is what happened: her microphone was unplugged, and it what Richard's microphone capturing everything. Because he's voice is a little bit more "clear".
Perhaps both microphones were off, and the audio was captures by the camera's microphone.
It's not often that Richard Dawkins is lost for words! Excellent talk, thank you.
Is it really true that MOST trans identified males are heterosexual? It could barely escape the attention of anyone who has followed this debate that the most aggressive and vicious extremes of the trans rights movement do often seem to be dominated by gynophilic transwomen (AKA straight men), but that doesn’t necessarily mean they outnumber androphillic transwomen overall (who typically tend to transition earlier and pass more easily)
Autogynephilia is pseudoscience.
Numbers can vary across different countries, but the estimate is that 80-90% of trans identifying males are heterosexual cross-dressers. The activists within this cohort are the most aggressive about having the legal right to enter women’s sports and spaces, redefining the word lesbian to include them, and the “rights” of children to medically transition. See Assistant Secretary for Health in the Biden Government, Rachel Levine, for the latter issue. He wants no age limit on social and medical transition. The irony of course is that these heterosexual men rarely transition themselves. They want to keep their “lady diques” or “shenises”. Edit; homosexual trans identifying men used to be the majority at least until this century.
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
Hard to say. Most will pretend not to understand what heterosexual means and some will claim to be lesbians.
As I understand it, many / most tw of all ages are female attracted (since bio males). There are a lot of issues around lesbians being given hell for not wanting non-op tw as partners. Lesbian only (ie only bio females) events get invaded by tw and their allies, and Pride is on verge of splitting over it (a lesbian group got banned from Brighton Pride this year). Dreadful bullying and misogyny.
I just really like the three shirts introduction.
Rational people like Richard & Kathleen are the embodiment of kindness.. 🥰
Then why are all of their arguments based on emotion of and negative gut reactions they've tried to rationalise?
@@DanLyndon they’re the only adults in the room.. and they care about people hence their public views ffs 🙄
@@DanLyndon Their arguments are based on the biological fact that sex is binary and immutable ✌️
thanks for making your video pop out - props
Actually double mastectomies in the name of gender have been performed on 12 year olds. And vaginoplasties on 15 year olds, and hysterectomies on 16 year olds.
And it's crazy to think that the 50's puritanism came back in this form...
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
Please invite Kellie Jay Keen. She is much more aggressive than Kathleen, but people need this in order to be snapped back into reality.
So much more feminine too.
KJK is getting a bit nutty these days, but she organises incredibly brave protests called Let Women Speak. She has a channel on here.
@@calstonjew Well, yes, Kathleen is not stereotypically feminine, but that's the whole point, she can dress and act how she likes, she is still a woman.
@@mothball5425 I know, there is literally no one as brave as her on this subject, and yet even people on her side of the debate shun her because she doesn't sugar coat it.
Two of my favourite people. Champions of clarity and rationality.
I don't understand how Butler became totalized and hierarchized to this extent. When I studied feminisms/postmodernisms in the 90s, the idea was that these theories were to be understood as in conversation with one another and interested in generating new questions, ways of thinking, not new dogmas. The idea was that meaning is constructed within master narratives, historical contexts and apparatuses of power, so keeping meaning fluid, self-critical, non-hierarchal, contextualized, would avoid issues of coercion, dominance, etc. You didn't want to be accused of totalizing, hierarchizing, ahistoricism, essentialism, binary thinking, etc. The new gender theory can be accused of all these. So postmodern/feminist theories are not the cause of the new trans ideology, bastardization of these theories is.
As Butler posited that gender was performance, Haraway posed deconstructing gender and sex altogether by becoming non-binary cyborgs, the French psychoanalytical feminists called for the jouissance of inventing a female language by writing from the female body, de Lauretis told us all (men too) to call ourselves lesbians, etc. This convo was generative of new tools, new questions, new landscapes to think in, but split theory from practice. What has happened to how these theories are taught that Butler dominates and has become dogma put into practice?
I agree with Stock that flipping our construct of gender to one where the social performance (femininity/masculinity) determines sex (manhood, womanhood) is regressive/patriarchal, and that the notion of inherent gender identity is essentialist and expressive of Cartesian dualism. I'm not entirely convinced that this means trans identity is a "fiction" rather than a "construct". Would love to hear her discuss this with a non-Butlerian expert on Pomo feminist theory.
You’re giving me flashbacks to attempting to study these things in the 90s 😅. You’ve presented the authors well, much better than I can. Maybe the answer is simply that most people trying to explain Gender Trouble in a sound bite said “it’s about gender as a performance” and most people could relate to that because we’ve all played up or downplayed sex stereotypes at some point.
The other might be that Judith Butler was happy to be interviewed on her philosophy and weigh in on the trans debate. She’s recently spoken about her disdain for lesbians’ aversion to penises, so she’s at least talking in prescriptive ways. Like Camille Paglia, she seems to enjoy the spotlight. Many don’t. If the author herself is saying “this is how you should interpret my work” then people will do so.
@@littlecatfeet9064 Good point, I thought about Paglia too: Spotlight seeker for sure. I can even listen to Butler.
we have freedom of speech as long as you agree with me...
Two of my favorite people!
Great interview and discussion. Thank you
I’m glad people can still discuss this.
People discuss it continuously and never shut up about it, Dawkins has talked about little else for years, as has the guest and most of the people around them. Stop pretending you're some sort of martyr it's pathetic.
@@worldofjonny2 Who’s being a martyr?
I’m glad Dawkins is discussing it in a skeptical manner.
I agree with Jonny, it’s not like this is a taboo subject, TH-cam has many videos discussing this issue.
Yes me too, discussed in an open intellectual manner . Always good to inquire
@@worldofjonny2 Martyr? Dude you need to touch some grass and reread what was originally commented and what you wrote.
Great episode
very informative
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.
Stock is excellent , glad to hear her views and opinions
I think this recording was done in a rented studio in New York. (The interview with John McWhorter was also done in a similar room.) It can't be helped that the sound quality is not very good. Above all, the interview itself is valuable. 🎙🎙🎶✨✨
She explained everything so clearly, we got the whole picture of this identity fad
I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on TH-cam or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.
Wow! Students who protest against your presence but are unwilling to hear your viewpoint. Sounds like Hamas.
The problem with the cluster definition of sex is it's the one postmodernists and queer theorists use to slip straight into "sex doesn't really exist as such, we might as well divide people according to the shape of their earlobes". That said, I'm all for a pragmatic and humane approach to DSDs.
What have DSDs got to do with claims of being "trans"? Probably more than 99% of people claiming to be "trans" have no form of DSD whatsoever. And, everyone with a DSD is still either male or female just like everyone else anyway.
@@ambientjohnny Exactly this^
I’m entirely sick of trans activists exploiting people affected by DSDs to push their false ideology.
They’re both such bright persons. I wish we could have the same conversation in France.
Poor audio.
Funny that Kathleen would call some of the things discussed here as surprisingly regressive. Because that's exactly what I realized after a while thinking about gender ideology. It all seems so grounded in conservative ideology.
After all, whether one feels male or female (assuming gender as a social concept) is usually tied to traditional stereotypes. Like whether one likes flowers, dancing and makeup. How is that progressive?!
(This is why I refer to myself as "beyond progressive", since I believe we should just get rid of gender and all this nonsense associated with it. I haven't finished watching yet but I suspect that, as usual, that perspective won't be mentioned in this video. It doesn't seem to occur to anyone. Yet, when I describe it to people-so far, everybody agreed that that would be reasonable.)
Um, that perspective is what is being argued for. Boys should be able to play with dolls without ever questioning whether he is a bot or not.
@@cyclicozone2072 You must've accidentally associated my comment with a different video. There's no mention of dolls or guilt in this video. Instead, Stock mentions "gender bending"-which goes against my suggestion.
@@notthere83 No, I’m responding to your comment. You seem to be under the impression that a post-gender perspective hasn’t been brought up. Yet, it’s been brought up endlessly and being argued for by rational opponents to gender ideology.
@@cyclicozone2072 Right. If it's that popular, you probably wouldn't mind listing three prominent representatives of the view.
@@notthere83 Dawkins, Stock, Kellie Jay Keen, JK Rowling, etc. The opponents of gender ideology all argue the point that boys, girls, men, and women aren’t defined by their interests, behaviors, or other arbitrary indicators that we associate with gender.
Philosophers like Kathleen Stock are deserving of more respect in society. They spend their lives thinking about difficult ideas and ought to be consulted when a new fad arrives.
Amazing talk! ❤ I am coming to see in Antwerp! Can’t wait!
Gender doesn’t mean if you feel like a Tom boy or feel like a flamboyant man it’s the difference between a stick and a triangle for purposes of description and safety. Language can’t be abused by a minority against the majority so easily.
Apparently it can because it has been.
Language transformation is not a question of majority but of emerging common usage. Btw Man is not the definition of male, or female is not the definition of woman, correlation doesn't imply causation. A cow is a female but isn't a woman. And, for exemple, being manly is a social feeling and an imitation of cultural displays, weeping was concidered masculine for medieval knights, but today it is supposed to be feminine and it even modified depiction of what is masculine in the medieval era.
@@louisalexandre33a man is an adult male homo sapien, a woman is an adult female homo sapien. These terms are reflective of immutable biological characteristics. Gender is an idea about social constructivism of normative sex-based roles. The words 'personality' and 'choice' best describe the dialectical inversion of gender in extant queer parlance. Ultimately, gender is meaningless due to the inherent revisionist and linguistic plasticity of Queer Academia ( an oxymoron if ever there was). Queer itself is reflexive Neo-Marxist rejection of the normal, which is say overwhelming majority description.
A man cannot become a woman no matter how 'performatively' adherent.
It can if the "minority" is pretty loud and powerful and has lots of money. We got billionaires like the Pritzkers backing this trans movement.
It's quite ironic because I see all sorts of people calling the proponents of it communists, meanwhile, it's the most capitalist thing ever. From top to bottom.
@@louisalexandre33 Yes but, the definition of man is male human. Just as a male cattle is a bull.
The gender religion is trying to alter that but, they can't give a definition of man or woman. If you want to change the meaning of words then at least offer a new definition.
Well I am a trans man, and I don’t enforce this “ideology”, or even consider it an “ideology”. I also don’t believe in this rhetoric that insues this belief of the gender identity being akin to a spiritual alignment. I don’t go on looking in the mirror and put on what I consider masculine just for the sake of copying what masculinity seems to me, which further alienates the progress we have made to forgo these stereotypes. I am trans because I’ve never been more comfortable being regarded as male, regardless of how my masculinity presents. I’m not trans because i didn’t like being seen as “feminine”, I am trans because being regarded as female, whatever that entails, made me highly uncomfortable and frankly depressed. It wasn’t because I was trying to become what society expects of men or trying to escape what society deems of women; I am trans because this just makes more sense to how I function and how I view myself. That being said, I am not trying to shove this experience down anyone’s throat or even make them call me something they don’t want to. Most of us, us being trans people, are quite scared of the implications of what being trans means. Some may be doing it for wrong reasons, and they may be doing it in a way that promotes harmful stereotypes, but most of us are just navigating what being ourselves mean. Of course, I am not dissuading the fact that people are causing harm and inciting this sort of public bashing and humiliation that is borderline barbaric. That being said, I found this conversation highly intriguing considering my view point and really worth watching. :)
It’s not the gender identity itself that makes it look like spiritual zeal, it’s the closed down no questions allowed cancelling of any questions and personal attacks to form a “us” vs “them”.
You’re not the problem. The problem is the people that shut down all discussions and debates that challenge their worldviews. And it’s not just regarding Trans issues. It spans across many subjects.
@@karagi101 Unfortunately, I have to agree. It’s truly sad that simple conversations are politicized and turned into things that are agressive and assertive; complicated topics must be discussed and shared with peers in order to further along our understanding. We need more conversations like these without it being lit aflame and torn apart in order of political correctness, or however you want to call it.
@@mavenhardwich1938thank you for at least being honest. We need the rest of your group to do the same thing.
What you’ve described is precisely an ideology. Its a subjective psychological experience / belief that comes either from trauma or social beliefs passed down through social interactions.
In other words, it is a learned trait, wether consciously or unconsciously. That is precisely why your ideology is extremely destructive and dangerous.
It’s as rational as religion, the difference is in the degree of psychological harm it does on a large scale and at the personal level of the individual.
Just like religion, its the enemy of science and all the progress we’ve made in these past few centuries in the field of psychology, philosophy, medicine.
But religion doesn’t teach you take drugs and become a walking pharmaceutical industry for the rest of your life. To chop off certain body parts in surgical procedures. To develop severe psychological problems. (Though certain religions certainly have done so in the past, modern day big religions don’t though you could argue that islam does reinforce some of these points indirectly).
It leads normal males and females to develop beliefs and deep psychological problems in regards to their biological sex.
@@mavenhardwich1938the fact that i even have to precise « biological » sex, is crazy 😝. Shows how much this perverse ideology has spread throughout the western culture.
A discussion with Iain McGilchrist is the order of the day ..
"Issues of contamination and purity " brilliant insight
Neil deGrasse Tyson and Matt Dillahunty believe that men can have periods.
They don't believe anything. They will say anything to gain approval.
Yeah they’re entirely dishonest
I'm amazed you talked about the modern usage of gender without bringing up John Money. A lot of the modern ideas stem from him. He was a sick child abuser btw.
39:24 What the Dickens is going on with the sound? Seems to be a poltergeist in the room.
Great episode, thank you!
excellent, will get her book Material Girls.
The very idea that a person can change their s-cks is absurd.
Any chance of having David Starkey on?
Socks?
i believe in the freedom and right to change your socks at least once a day.
only because your bad at thinking.
@@KickRocks-me7hh *You're.
@@petermsiegel573 The hal go rythym dee leets my posts if they contain certain words - the Glow baa lists hate uppity people!
What gets me is the inability to have a dispassionate interest in understanding the concerns of all sides of this debate. Just a lot of mud slinging and anger based on unqualified apriori assumptions. Kathleen seems to me to be charitable and fair minded, regardless if you agree with her position. I am not a biologist, a professional philosopher nor personally experiencing the difficulties of gender dysphoria. But like many of us, I wish to understand the claims, epistemic basis, evidence and lived experiences. Because the claimed rights of one group can impinge on the claimed rights of others.
What’s unqualified or a priori about the fact that sex is binary and however one identifies in their head can’t change their biological reality? 😂
@@jonjonson-dd7gq I was implying that given the presuppositions of modern gender "theorists", it's no wonder certain conclusions perplex those who aren't steeped in it. The remedy is to interrogate the epistemic basis that leads to specific conclusions, that bemuse the rest of us. I worded it in a charitable way because, well you know, I could be wrong on aspects of it too.
@@PianoDentist There isn’t an epistemic basis for gender ideology. That’s kind of the whole point.
Yeah it’s so so complicated, lmao. That’s called cowardice
Such a good channel.
Brilliant discourse of this topic
I would like to hear Richard discuss this topic with a proponent of "trans ideology".
Problem is those kind of people refuse to enter a discussion.
@@SolarShineya, they’re all the same…. What a give away…..
How about a neuroscientist like Robert Sapolsky. I’m not sure Dawkins is prepared any more for addressing this from a science/evidence based perspective. There was a time…
@@petermsiegel573 Sapolsky makes claims, that he actually admits are unsupported by evidence, without realising he is admitting such a thing, and then carries on as if he hadn't just exposed himself and the lack of evidence. There is cognitive dissonance going on, but he prefers to cater to a certain opinion rather than actually be critical. For example, he readily admits that brain differences between the sexes are near non-existent, then goes on to claim there is clear evidence that male "trans" brains are more like female brains... And we are also talking about patients who have been on cross-sex hormones. He also ignores filtering for sex, as homosexual males have certain minimal brain differences versus heterosexual males - he ignores accounting for sexuality. He is thoroughly dishonest. But, of course the "trans" crowd doesn't care, they just hear what they want to hear.
The best debate I've heard on this subject was between rationality rules and a biologist. Though the end result seemed to be that rationality rules was a gender abolitionist anyway so basically agreed with the biologist that definitions based on sex were more useful
I truly enjoyed this conversation, I agree almost with everything said.
However I don't think that some religious people would prefer a trans child over a gay child.
They simply couldn't cause that would mean accepting that their god made a mistake when the child was "created" which they could obviously never do.
I think they would rather have no child than a gay or trans child and that's why they are shunned often and cut off from the family or worse, beaten and even killed.
A very high (if not the highest in the world) rate of male to female transgender surgeries and transitions performed in Iran, a country 45 years into an extreme islamic theocratic dictatorship, says otherwise. The idea that the god has made a mistake, something that would be totally heretic/haram by all religious dogma somehow is being ignored in favour of homophobia, and that cognitive dissonance has been ironed out, so having a trans "daughter" is nothing, "she" is just a "daughter", but having a gay son is the worst of sins/miseries. A high percentage of trans cases apparently are similarly motivated in the West, in christian communities.
8:20
Here is Judith Butler's text read by Professor Richard Dawkins in this video.
“This form of theoretical extractivism had to be countered by uncovering specific histories and archives, more accountable narratives, and ways of knowing, produced by those who had for too long constituted the phantasmatic objects of fear, the zones of experiments, the fetishized examples that demonstrated the “validity” of Western epistemologies.”
😓😓😓😓😓
Thanks sound engineers - I'm going to use this as the perfect example of phasing in my audio class!! No offence intended just made me laugh. Nice content too.