The hard wire suggestion isn't a rant. It's valuable information and, in my opinion, the way to go. Another great video. I'm really enjoying your channel!
Great Video Tom. On my daily drive of about 25 minutes coming from a non heated but insulated garage averaging 35 degrees or so in this cold winter in Minnesota,- the garage, not the outside, which can be well below zero at times. Would it make sense to before my drive, go set a destination of a DCFC 40 minutes away in my truck so it would start pre-conditioning the battery by the time I actually drive out of the garage, say 30 minutes after I set the destination? Would that then make my efficiency start out at a much higher level than just getting into my R1T cold? I leave the garage cold and get like 0.6 to 0.8i kw/h so very low and by the time I get the battery warmed up, I have arrived at work so to and from work I get really bad efficiency and thus wonder if setting a destination a half hour or so to a DCFC would actually start and keep my efficiency at a much higher level throughout?
Ok say I have a generator with a running output of 7000w and a 30 amp l14-30r would that be able to charge this truck and what else would determine the charge rate
@State Of Charge thank you if you have a video or have a formula on charge speed I would really like to review that I want an ev but I also don't want to be tide down to charging stations on trips
@@treads2595 That is an assumption. I contacted QMERIT originally. They told me that they would reach out to an electrician. They did so and told me that the cost would be $750 for the install plus whatever they charge on top. I was in a time crunch, so agreed. Well, no further communication from QMERIT. I called to verify the electrician was going to be out the next day - and they said they were scheduled. Electrician never showed. When I called QMERIT, they said that they would need to call another electrician. Literally anyone can get on a computer and find a reputable, licensed electrician. Installing the charger isn't rocket science anyway. Too - you can have the installation accomplished in a timely manner and for less money. Truly a no brainer. I think Rivian aligned with QMERIT for those customers who either don't want to deal with hiring an electrician - or just to ensure they have that portion of the EV purchase process covered.
Love this video. You nailed it. Great job! So much misinformation out there. I do my best to educate people, but it seems its almost impossible for some. So thanks!
Looks like a low of 30% to 40% are the sweet spot(s) given the thermal throttling. Baffling that 800VDC isn’t more popular. Ford was smart to focus on helping customers get the fastest AC charging at home possible to limit their customers needs abroad in a day. Great subject matter well covered. 👍🏼
Its not more popular because its not necessary unless you are using an enormous battery and can exploit the 350 max rate. Peak rate is a meaningless feature if all it does is get thermally limited like a yoyo. More important is the average rate.
@@Wised1000 P = I² R: If you double the current you end up with 4 times the power losses. The lower voltage spoken of in this video for DC Fast Charging requires twice the current to transfer the same amount of power than say Tom’s favorite EV car to test drive. Those ramped up losses documented here are described by Tom accurately. To your point Tesla’s for instance do peak nicely but the average transfer rate is lower than that test EV Tom loves. Those Tesla inefficiencies are realized as heat and are managed well but are limiting with hot handles the most obvious outward indicators besides that lower average; that is, as you correctly state, the most important metric. Doubling the battery pack voltage by design reduces these losses by four fold and as Tom stated at some chargers that are purposely set to a lower current limit, can still charge at the higher posted rate (power delivered) because their current requirements are half as much for the same amount of power.
It baffles me why utilities, municipalities, and other establishments install 6kW chargers. No one is going to sit there for 3-5 hours to get 100 mile range. They give EVs a bad reputation. Here in Florida, Tesla installed 3kW J1772 chargers and they were so slow, no one used them. 9 months later, it was upgraded to 9.6kW and charging is much more popular.
Hey Tom, Thanks for the content. I am just getting my Riv opportunity for delivery. But it seems that the R1T is a 2022 and not only that but around a 12k build number. I’m nervous about this. Sounds like it has been sitting and my guide can’t tell me why. What is your opinion/thoughts? What’s your VIN build number? Any build issues with yours. Thanks. Jamie from Vermont
Seems kind of crazy to have such a big battery and not have it an 800 volt pack.... for the same number of kW input you only need half the amperage compared to a 400 volt pack. Do we want to say "design flaw"? DCFC cables are stiff enough as they are currently, do you really want to double the wire ampacity size and have it so you need two people to wrestle it into the charge port???
You can use any power charger on any EV and you don' thave to worry about it providing "too much" power because the inverter will limit what it takes in. If you look at the connector early in this video, that's from the Ford Charge Station Pro charging the R1T. I use it all the time.
Rivian's on-board charging is limited to 11.5kW AC charging. The Ford Lightning (not sure on Mach E), Hummer, Tesla and Porsche can use the higher 19.2kW AC, which is fast! I drive way more than you, I'm sure - and 11.5kW is plenty for my R1T, I'd be nice to have a faster AC rate, but its hardly an "issue". Never been stranded or waiting around longer than needed.
Except for the 30%-80% data, all others show that 100% charge would take about 144kWh, whereas 30%-80% shows 135kWh, i wonder what was diff with this one.
Tom, just following up on a previous comment. When are you going to test the Rivian Wall Charger? I know, I know, they won't send you one. But please, just buy one and write it off on your taxes. There are thousands (if not tens of thousands) of folks trying to decide if they should buy one with their Rivian purchase. If Rivian's not sending you one for free, maybe there's a reason? Maybe they're concerned it will fail one of your tests and they'll have to make changes and improvements? If so, we need your help. Come on, please buy one and test it!!!
Great stuff. Would be interesting to see this same thing on 150Kwh chargers. I was watching another video and it seems like the system may not go to 206Kwh but would hold a lower 150Kwh or so longer throughout the charging curve and ends up charging a similar time. More of a time basis versus taking advantage of higher DC volts/amps.
Until EV's drastically lower the amount of time it takes to charge these trucks and large vehicles there won't be that much of a market for them. No one wants to sit at an EV charging station for 53 minutes to go from 0-80%. You spend 5 mins maybe going from E to Full at a gas station.
Agree that hardwire is the best. Your in depth coverage of the charging solutions are excellent. My situation is limited with a small utility box. 30-60 breakers won’t fit. Any chance for a review of the new Siemens-ConectDER tap off the whole house meter. It was supposed to be out and new on the market. In Florida all they give is a phone number to call. I would like to use this hardwired to the best unit. But I don’t want to be the first.
It would improve the charging, but that actually wouldn't make much difference. The real improvement would be if Rivian allowed a higher charging rate deeper into the pack. The thermal events aren't adding more than 2-3 minutes to a full charging session - the issue is overrated.
Hey man, are you still happy with your r1T? I have the max pack enhanced dual motor reservation. Is the bed size any issue for you to the size of the cab comfortable compared to larger truck cabs?
I don't know why more companies don't go for lower peaks but flatter charging curves (i.e., Audi e-Tron and other German models). It would seem like this is what you'd want with such a large pack and given real-world needs. A fast 20%-80% is more important than "can I hit 250kw" for two minutes between 20-25% SOC, no? Also, I've never seen DCFC comparisons between charging vendors presented in such a way. This is great intel.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I guess I'm fine with a high-peak but not if it comes at the expense of overall charge time, as there's truly nothing the end user can do to alter the OEM's charge tuning. I've heard much praise for the Germans both for flattening their charge curves and also under-promising and over-delivering on range figures. Admire companies who take this approach.
One of the other TH-camrs did a good video comparing charging at 350 kW vs 150 kW DCFCs. One important caveat is that the vast majority of EA units labelled as 150 kW actually deliver up to 175 kW, something I had noticed with my R1T. Anyway, the results of his tests that went from 5%-85% were that the total time to charge between the 150 kW charger vs the 350 kW charger differed by less than 1 minute. The big reason was the throttling. The 350's hit higher peaks, but had to throttle lower than the pretty constant 175 kW that the 150 kW units delivered. I think it's a combination of EA problems and the R1's software. For those left coasters lucky enough to have access to the brand new RAN chargers that Rivian is building, they seem to sustain the higher peaks for much longer and have better curves. We need this channel and the other ones to get to those RAN DCFCs to do some more objective testing.
I think a good thing for rivian to do is add the option to allow for a lower peak of day 150 based on the chargers needs at time of charging. If they’re just trying to get 20-50 miles to get home, perhaps peaking at 210 makes sense. If they’re on a road trip maybe throttling to 150 and keeping a flatter curb is better. Having the option to choose makes sense to me.
Wow, that DC fast charging is expensive. 32 cents a kWh, for only about 2 miles or 16 cents a mile. A truck that gets 20mpg at 4 bucks a gallon costs 20 cents a mile.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney It sure makes my like my little efficient PHEV even more. It only takes about 8kWh to charge since the 9kWh is never actually at zero, and I only pay 11 cents a kWh so for 32 miles or 88 cents total or about 2.75 cents a mile. Once it flips over to hybrid mode it gets about 55mpg so at 4 bucks a gallon it's still under 8 cents a mile. Of course... Try to fit a family of 4 and the groceries they can all carry in it and it's like playing Tetris, so there is trade-offs there.
So the conversation about heating the battery before DC fast charging ... does the same apply to level 1 or 2 charging at home? And if so, how do I tell my Rivian that I'm about to attach a level 2 charger to it in the winter when it's most likely in the 20's in my garage?
Camping with our Model 3, we use a TT-30 adapter with the Tesla Mobile Connector that came with our 2018. Can you buy a similar adapter for the Rivian Mobile Connector? (Most campgrounds we go to have TT-30 [120V/30A for those who don't know] as opposed to a 14-50 outlet)
Tesla's at home Wall Connector is $425 and the J1772 adaptor is $50. Tesla also sells a dedicated J1772 Wall Connector for $550. 48 amps. We have a R1S delivering this year and that's the charger I'm planning on getting. Maybe research these options before reviewing the Rivian charger so your review is comprehensive.
can the Rivian change/limit the amps 120v/240v ...sometimes a 120v socket may have other things on it so a 5amp charge would be nice tesla does this but does the rivian?
Excellent report. But, there's one fuction you can't measure and report. And that being the life of the battery dependent upon how you charge ( push ) the battery. I like to use the word "push" into the battery. Your numbers on the Rivian slowing things down is the Rivian slowing down that push. Sure pushing 350Kwh into a battery to get it to 80% or even 100% charge is great but potentially your getting speed today but giving battery life. How to extend the life of your battery? Charge with that humble 115vac 15amp wall socket in your garage. Sure it takes 100+ hours but you may extend the life of your battery 2x or even 3x.
I explain it in the video. It does thermal limit but only for a brief time and it dosen't really slow down the charging that much. The conservative charging curve is more of an issue.
How about if you want to run the AC in hot weather, will the battery overheat with repeated DC fast charging? This can happen if the car prioritizes cooling the cabin over the battery.
Hey Tom do you know if the Rivian can charge at higher amps on 120v like 24amps from a 30amp rv outlet? Or even 16 amps on a nema 5-20. Tesla can do both of those
Can you schedule the Rivian Charger (or R1T itself) to charge to 100% at a certain time AND be fully conditioned if you were heading out on a road trip?
I've been using a plug in Chargepoint Home ever since 2018 and it is still running strong at the end of 2023. A good solid install is just as good as a hardwire setup.
As I recall, Tom presented Ford’s recommendation on pre-conditioning for the F150 Lightning. Set your time of expected departure in the morning and leave the car plugged in overnight and Ford’s software will precondition the battery automatically (at least that’s what I recall). Seems like a better approach than Rivian??
I use the term “range miles per charging hour” (acronym “rmpch”) to indicate miles added when charging, to differentiate it from “mph” which can introduce confusion. I have not seen this term/acronym elsewhere, although it may not have originated from me.
I have a Tesla Gen3 wall charger, just bought a Rivian wall charger to pair with my truck, to replace it, it kept overheating and it throttles back, even when its near freezing out, and the cable & the box are cold. Tesla replaced it once, this new one is doing the same thing... The Rivian charger is working perfectly! Love it, I'll keep this forever.
Hard wiring may be cheaper than the plug in alternative, especially if you use a severe-duty, “melt-proof” Hubbell 14-50 receptacle (instead of the home center cheapies that have been known to fail when subjected to the lengthy heat cycle of the large (100+ kWh) battery packs in the Rivian and Ford Lightning).
Keep in mind that a 48 amp EVSE circuit will need to be run with a 60A breaker so that means expensive cable runs if you have to run wires to a breaker panel. The vast majority of people would be fine with a 240V 16A EVSE (or in this case, the supplied Rivian portable EVSE in 240v mode) at home and top up at a DC fast charge station for the times you need, and a 7.6kw charger will be overkill for most people since you can charge 150 miles in a 10 hour overnight session which will be plenty for day to day use. You rarely need to charge to 100% unless you are going on a long trip and even then only your first leg of the trip will be 100% since DC fast charging will be so slow at 80% you are going to stop and drive if you can.
Agreed, after discussing with my electrician, we opted for the more expensive cable run as a bit of insurance and future proofing as the cable run itself was a major pain.
Besides charge speed, what the graph @25:20 tells me is how unrefined Rivian’s electronics are. There are so many spikes and troughs, it’s down right scary looking… even compared to something as rudimentary as a Lightning, which is basically just a converted F150. It seems like the battery or thermal management system wasn’t designed right and they just used software after the fact, as a band aid solution, to quell customer expectations for quick charge times. I’ve never seen anything so unstable, not from VW, Hyundai, or Porsche, and certainly not from Tesla.
Yes, the spikes & troughs are terrible in comparison to the Lightning’s smoother curve. Power is fluctuating based on battery temperature. Hopefully Rivian can fix this with software, because this oscillation is awful.
Tom, our EQS580 shows SoC with range. Since I drive with maximum regen and a feather on the pedal, it reports 375 mi range at 90%. Do you think the EQS can deliver over 400 mi range or is this Guess O Meter faulty?
Good catch. Tom gave up on EVSE term about 40 videos ago. It’s hard to find any vendor call these “source equipment” or “service equipment.” They use kiss theory in marketing.
Very informative. We have a Tesla home charger and waiting for our rivian. With an adapter can we get the full use of the Tesla home charger or do we need a second charger? Thanks!
Tom, have a question... Would you recommend only DC Fast charging to 70/85 and then top off with level 2 when needing 100%? Longevity is what I'm most concerned about
If you have the time, probably, but if you're on a road trip and want to get going, don't be concerned about charging higher on DC fast if you need to. For daily charging, I'd recommend setting the vehicle to stop charging at 85% - no problem with DC fast charging up to that.
Please get to one of Rivian's RAN DCFCs to see how much if any better the curve is. Those left coasters that are lucky enough to have them already seem to have much better curves than with the typical 3rd party CCS companies struggling to install hardware that consistently works. Also, by now you are probably aware the next OTA is going to release more usable battery pack on the low end per the release notes.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I don't think you have any evidence of that until you do it on a RAN DCFC. Multiple owners in the forums report much better peak charging rates for longer on the RAN DCFCs than EA or other units. How can you be sure there isn't a more proactive thermal management algorithm between the truck and RAN DCFC as soon as it plugs in rather than a reactive one like seems to be happening on 3rd party chargers. Could be anecdotal, but every single post I have seen from someone using a RAN DCFC has had a superior experience.
@Jay G I actually do have some data and have spoken to a few followers that have charged at them and explained their findings. Their charging curves look identical to what I've been observing.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney Good to know. Thanks! I would still like to see your first hand experience over a few sessions. Your ~20 minutes for ~100 miles added is pretty spot on to what I see on the 350 kW EA station I use a couple of times a month. Which also happens to be about the exact time for a Taco Bell lunch and bathroom break across the street. I liked having the graph in the app though. I think the next OTA and app update said they are bringing it back.
Random question, will the Ford pro charger that can charge the Lightning at 80 amps will it charge the Mach E or any other J1772 at 80 amps as well? I know it has a CCS connecter on it just not sure if that’s for back up power not sure if it’s pushing 80 amps through the J1772.
Yes, it can charge any CCS EVs. I actually use it for daily charging on my R1T and you can even see the CCS connector plugged into the vehicle at the beginning of this video. The CCS pins are only used for the vehicle to home powering.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney OK great thank you for the info out of curiosity what is the max amperage on the j1772? Connector I just assumed it would be using CCS pins for the extra amps.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney So is there any benefit to an 80A charger for the R1T? I have a gen 2 Tesla charger that can hardwire to a 100A circuit, and charge at 80A. TeslaTap makes an 80A Tesla>J1772 adapter that will charge the Taycan at 20Kw.
I want to challenge the 80% mantra a little bit. On my EQS at 90% I'm still charging at 50KW. After that, it slows down quickly. I would propose that instead of the well advertised 80% SOC, it might be more useful to recommend stopping after the charge rate is less than 50kw. Of course its all relative, If you don't need 90 to reach your destination it doesnt matter, but if you are on a long drive that requires multiple stops, that extra 10 precent is nice and only adds a few minutes.
On a trip from Boston to S. Florida, ABRP recommended I charge roughly from 15-70% and charge more often to catch the “sweet spot” on a Tesla. Only where rarely needed did it ever tell me to charge over 80% because it’s a poor use of time.
@John Poldo You have to move a little west out of the I 95 corridor... In addition Tesla's network is probably the best thing of the whole car. The non Tesla networks are fragmented and primarily clustered on the east and west coast. My closest DC charger more than 50KW is 126 miles away! We'll see how Teslas conversion to service CCS goes.....
@@Wised1000 Agree on fragmented non-Tesla DC fast charging. I've been driving a Tesla since 2017 and their charging network spoiled me. At a 2nd home, we are using a MB EV and charging for a road trip is awful in Florida. Many of the EA chargers don't work.
Tom, great video. I know L1 is not preferred, but if you talk about it you might want to mention 12 amp pull on a 15 amp circuit can lead to breaker tripping if other devices are in use. I think that is why VW offered a 12 amp L1 EVSE with the 24.2 kWh e-Golf but then switched to a 10 amp L1 EVSE for the 35.8 kWh e-Golf (my car), so L1 charging is especially long for me. I do use L1 when I visit and stay overnight at the in-laws house.
You can use a Tesla Destination charger (level 2) now with an adaptor. Tesla Superchargers with what's called a Magic Dock will be available this year. The Magic Doc is simply a CCS connector at the Supercharger station. I speculate there will be a very limited number of chargers available at a given location with the MDs so as not to anger Tesla owners watching the network flooded with non Teslas.
More than happy with the 16A 240v EVSE for my R1T - I just don't drive it that much so I prefer the slower "trickle" charge and have max pack voltage set at 70%
It definitely will work for some. Just make sure to open your Nema 14-50 outlet every year and check the connections - especially if it has aluminum wiring inside.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney no sir, a Nema 6-20R for a 3.8kW charger that I used on my previous PHEVs that couldn't handle more than 3.3kW due to their onboard AC charger limitations
Good video, Except your level One at 1.4 kw will NOT give a Rivian R1T or R1S 2-3 miles of charge per hour. They are NOT that efficient.! IMO - testing.
I guess I could have said 1-3 miles/hr, but that's kinda splitting hairs, no? Definitely not getting 3 in the winter months, but in the warmer months and driving efficiently it can be done.
@State Of Charge Tom. Ok... 1.4 kw per hour would be right if the R1T got 2.8 miles per kwh or 4.2 miles per kwh. I've never seen a Rivian be that efficient summer or winter. Tom, your videos are awesome.
tom, while i appreciate you correctly explaining how ppl misinterpret lvl 3 = dcfc, i would have prefered "sometimes incorrectly called lvl 3". even better, you can get super into the weeds and say lvl 3 does exist, but its AC 3 phase....
The hard wire suggestion isn't a rant. It's valuable information and, in my opinion, the way to go. Another great video. I'm really enjoying your channel!
Great Video Tom. On my daily drive of about 25 minutes coming from a non heated but insulated garage averaging 35 degrees or so in this cold winter in Minnesota,- the garage, not the outside, which can be well below zero at times. Would it make sense to before my drive, go set a destination of a DCFC 40 minutes away in my truck so it would start pre-conditioning the battery by the time I actually drive out of the garage, say 30 minutes after I set the destination? Would that then make my efficiency start out at a much higher level than just getting into my R1T cold? I leave the garage cold and get like 0.6 to 0.8i kw/h so very low and by the time I get the battery warmed up, I have arrived at work so to and from work I get really bad efficiency and thus wonder if setting a destination a half hour or so to a DCFC would actually start and keep my efficiency at a much higher level throughout?
Thanks Tom, great video lots of great info. Edit Tom apologies
Tom, not Tim.
Ok say I have a generator with a running output of 7000w and a 30 amp l14-30r would that be able to charge this truck and what else would determine the charge rate
Yes, it would charge it as long as you have a 14-30 to 14-50 adapter.
@State Of Charge thank you if you have a video or have a formula on charge speed I would really like to review that I want an ev but I also don't want to be tide down to charging stations on trips
Another point of clarity - QMERIT does not perform installations. They hire an electrician...kind of like you can....
QMERIT is a ripoff compared to hiring a electrician directly.
Isn’t the benefit of using Qmerit that they’ve gone and verified that the electrician is licensed, experienced and capable?
@@treads2595 That is an assumption. I contacted QMERIT originally. They told me that they would reach out to an electrician. They did so and told me that the cost would be $750 for the install plus whatever they charge on top. I was in a time crunch, so agreed. Well, no further communication from QMERIT. I called to verify the electrician was going to be out the next day - and they said they were scheduled. Electrician never showed. When I called QMERIT, they said that they would need to call another electrician.
Literally anyone can get on a computer and find a reputable, licensed electrician. Installing the charger isn't rocket science anyway. Too - you can have the installation accomplished in a timely manner and for less money. Truly a no brainer. I think Rivian aligned with QMERIT for those customers who either don't want to deal with hiring an electrician - or just to ensure they have that portion of the EV purchase process covered.
@@Paul-qe1uf Exactly. QMERIT is all marking with no value add.
Love this video. You nailed it. Great job! So much misinformation out there. I do my best to educate people, but it seems its almost impossible for some. So thanks!
Excellent analysis and data. Can these data be published on a Google Sheet?
Looks like a low of 30% to 40% are the sweet spot(s) given the thermal throttling. Baffling that 800VDC isn’t more popular. Ford was smart to focus on helping customers get the fastest AC charging at home possible to limit their customers needs abroad in a day. Great subject matter well covered. 👍🏼
Its not more popular because its not necessary unless you are using an enormous battery and can exploit the 350 max rate. Peak rate is a meaningless feature if all it does is get thermally limited like a yoyo. More important is the average rate.
@@Wised1000 P = I² R: If you double the current you end up with 4 times the power losses. The lower voltage spoken of in this video for DC Fast Charging requires twice the current to transfer the same amount of power than say Tom’s favorite EV car to test drive. Those ramped up losses documented here are described by Tom accurately. To your point Tesla’s for instance do peak nicely but the average transfer rate is lower than that test EV Tom loves. Those Tesla inefficiencies are realized as heat and are managed well but are limiting with hot handles the most obvious outward indicators besides that lower average; that is, as you correctly state, the most important metric. Doubling the battery pack voltage by design reduces these losses by four fold and as Tom stated at some chargers that are purposely set to a lower current limit, can still charge at the higher posted rate (power delivered) because their current requirements are half as much for the same amount of power.
It baffles me why utilities, municipalities, and other establishments install 6kW chargers. No one is going to sit there for 3-5 hours to get 100 mile range. They give EVs a bad reputation.
Here in Florida, Tesla installed 3kW J1772 chargers and they were so slow, no one used them. 9 months later, it was upgraded to 9.6kW and charging is much more popular.
Excellent content! Looking forward to the Ford curve comparison!
Tom, great video! Also good to see that your DCFC test mirrors the battery science! Seems like the battery prefers to stay between 20-80%
depends: are you towing a twizzy in the winter and thermal throttling 🤔?
The thermal throttling is nothing new, you can see it in the video. Twizy towing? I'll leave to Kyle.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney excellent work. love the data.
This is really excellent, Tom. Thanks very much.
I’m never going back to gas!
Hey Tom, Thanks for the content. I am just getting my Riv opportunity for delivery. But it seems that the R1T is a 2022 and not only that but around a 12k build number. I’m nervous about this. Sounds like it has been sitting and my guide can’t tell me why. What is your opinion/thoughts? What’s your VIN build number? Any build issues with yours. Thanks. Jamie from Vermont
11:00 YES if you own any EV, please hard wire a well known charging station to the highest amp circuit breaker you have available.
Seems kind of crazy to have such a big battery and not have it an 800 volt pack.... for the same number of kW input you only need half the amperage compared to a 400 volt pack. Do we want to say "design flaw"? DCFC cables are stiff enough as they are currently, do you really want to double the wire ampacity size and have it so you need two people to wrestle it into the charge port???
Even more crazy is the brand new Rivian "Enduro" motors are 400V, and also the even bigger "Max" battery pack.
Will Fords 80amp charger decrease the time ? Or Rivian not except that much on lvl2 with its on board inverter?
You can use any power charger on any EV and you don' thave to worry about it providing "too much" power because the inverter will limit what it takes in. If you look at the connector early in this video, that's from the Ford Charge Station Pro charging the R1T. I use it all the time.
Rivian's on-board charging is limited to 11.5kW AC charging. The Ford Lightning (not sure on Mach E), Hummer, Tesla and Porsche can use the higher 19.2kW AC, which is fast! I drive way more than you, I'm sure - and 11.5kW is plenty for my R1T, I'd be nice to have a faster AC rate, but its hardly an "issue". Never been stranded or waiting around longer than needed.
@State Of Charge yes , can connect but does the Rivian charge faster . Answered by Chris . Thanks.
@Chris Thanks . I have no EV , learning .
@@MikeSTGL OK great, as long as you got your answer!
220, 221, whatever it takes.
Great information Tom. Thanks 👍
Except for the 30%-80% data, all others show that 100% charge would take about 144kWh, whereas 30%-80% shows 135kWh, i wonder what was diff with this one.
Tom, just following up on a previous comment. When are you going to test the Rivian Wall Charger? I know, I know, they won't send you one. But please, just buy one and write it off on your taxes. There are thousands (if not tens of thousands) of folks trying to decide if they should buy one with their Rivian purchase. If Rivian's not sending you one for free, maybe there's a reason? Maybe they're concerned it will fail one of your tests and they'll have to make changes and improvements? If so, we need your help. Come on, please buy one and test it!!!
Great stuff. Would be interesting to see this same thing on 150Kwh chargers. I was watching another video and it seems like the system may not go to 206Kwh but would hold a lower 150Kwh or so longer throughout the charging curve and ends up charging a similar time. More of a time basis versus taking advantage of higher DC volts/amps.
Until EV's drastically lower the amount of time it takes to charge these trucks and large vehicles there won't be that much of a market for them. No one wants to sit at an EV charging station for 53 minutes to go from 0-80%. You spend 5 mins maybe going from E to Full at a gas station.
You’re not kidding: hardwiring is better. It isn’t like the wall mounted level 2 charger moves around locations.
Tesla also sales a Tesla Wall Connector that has a J1772 end
That’s what I bought to charge my R1T. Less expensive than most 48 amp units. Tesla did a nice job on the j1772 handle.
Agree that hardwire is the best. Your in depth coverage of the charging solutions are excellent. My situation is limited with a small utility box. 30-60 breakers won’t fit. Any chance for a review of the new Siemens-ConectDER tap off the whole house meter. It was supposed to be out and new on the market. In Florida all they give is a phone number to call. I would like to use this hardwired to the best unit. But I don’t want to be the first.
R1T thermal management needs some improvement to get rid of throttling events.
It would improve the charging, but that actually wouldn't make much difference. The real improvement would be if Rivian allowed a higher charging rate deeper into the pack. The thermal events aren't adding more than 2-3 minutes to a full charging session - the issue is overrated.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney Someone (Kyle) has made a lot of noise about it. 😀
Hey man, are you still happy with your r1T? I have the max pack enhanced dual motor reservation. Is the bed size any issue for you to the size of the cab comfortable compared to larger truck cabs?
I don't know why more companies don't go for lower peaks but flatter charging curves (i.e., Audi e-Tron and other German models). It would seem like this is what you'd want with such a large pack and given real-world needs. A fast 20%-80% is more important than "can I hit 250kw" for two minutes between 20-25% SOC, no? Also, I've never seen DCFC comparisons between charging vendors presented in such a way. This is great intel.
They want to announce a sexy high peak number, I guess. 😁
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I guess I'm fine with a high-peak but not if it comes at the expense of overall charge time, as there's truly nothing the end user can do to alter the OEM's charge tuning. I've heard much praise for the Germans both for flattening their charge curves and also under-promising and over-delivering on range figures. Admire companies who take this approach.
One of the other TH-camrs did a good video comparing charging at 350 kW vs 150 kW DCFCs. One important caveat is that the vast majority of EA units labelled as 150 kW actually deliver up to 175 kW, something I had noticed with my R1T. Anyway, the results of his tests that went from 5%-85% were that the total time to charge between the 150 kW charger vs the 350 kW charger differed by less than 1 minute. The big reason was the throttling. The 350's hit higher peaks, but had to throttle lower than the pretty constant 175 kW that the 150 kW units delivered. I think it's a combination of EA problems and the R1's software. For those left coasters lucky enough to have access to the brand new RAN chargers that Rivian is building, they seem to sustain the higher peaks for much longer and have better curves. We need this channel and the other ones to get to those RAN DCFCs to do some more objective testing.
I think a good thing for rivian to do is add the option to allow for a lower peak of day 150 based on the chargers needs at time of charging. If they’re just trying to get 20-50 miles to get home, perhaps peaking at 210 makes sense. If they’re on a road trip maybe throttling to 150 and keeping a flatter curb is better. Having the option to choose makes sense to me.
That's why I like my gas car fill it in 10 minutes I have over 300 miles
Hey Tom it's me!!! You know who I am!!!
Hey Owen! Thanks for checking in.
I have a 2023 bolt. People ask how long it takes to charge. I am sick of tell them the above.
I remember you from the early BMW i3 days in 2014
I'm still here! 😃
Great video. Very informative. Thanks for the lesson.
How do you charge a rivian using a Tesla wall connector?
Those charge times make the entire company a joke.
$750 extra right now. No thanks.
As always on point video
What happens if you plug into a 50 amp plug
Wow, that DC fast charging is expensive. 32 cents a kWh, for only about 2 miles or 16 cents a mile. A truck that gets 20mpg at 4 bucks a gallon costs 20 cents a mile.
Good thing I charge at home 95% of the time and pay $.15/kWh :)
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney It sure makes my like my little efficient PHEV even more. It only takes about 8kWh to charge since the 9kWh is never actually at zero, and I only pay 11 cents a kWh so for 32 miles or 88 cents total or about 2.75 cents a mile. Once it flips over to hybrid mode it gets about 55mpg so at 4 bucks a gallon it's still under 8 cents a mile.
Of course... Try to fit a family of 4 and the groceries they can all carry in it and it's like playing Tetris, so there is trade-offs there.
So the conversation about heating the battery before DC fast charging ... does the same apply to level 1 or 2 charging at home? And if so, how do I tell my Rivian that I'm about to attach a level 2 charger to it in the winter when it's most likely in the 20's in my garage?
Camping with our Model 3, we use a TT-30 adapter with the Tesla Mobile Connector that came with our 2018. Can you buy a similar adapter for the Rivian Mobile Connector? (Most campgrounds we go to have TT-30 [120V/30A for those who don't know] as opposed to a 14-50 outlet)
Tesla's at home Wall Connector is $425 and the J1772 adaptor is $50. Tesla also sells a dedicated J1772 Wall Connector for $550. 48 amps. We have a R1S delivering this year and that's the charger I'm planning on getting. Maybe research these options before reviewing the Rivian charger so your review is comprehensive.
can the Rivian change/limit the amps 120v/240v ...sometimes a 120v socket may have other things on it so a 5amp charge would be nice tesla does this but does the rivian?
Excellent report. But, there's one fuction you can't measure and report. And that being the life of the battery dependent upon how you charge ( push ) the battery. I like to use the word "push" into the battery. Your numbers on the Rivian slowing things down is the Rivian slowing down that push. Sure pushing 350Kwh into a battery to get it to 80% or even 100% charge is great but potentially your getting speed today but giving battery life.
How to extend the life of your battery? Charge with that humble 115vac 15amp wall socket in your garage. Sure it takes 100+ hours but you may extend the life of your battery 2x or even 3x.
Have you experienced the rivian overheating when dc fast charging? If so, what about on the lightning?
I explain it in the video. It does thermal limit but only for a brief time and it dosen't really slow down the charging that much. The conservative charging curve is more of an issue.
How about if you want to run the AC in hot weather, will the battery overheat with repeated DC fast charging? This can happen if the car prioritizes cooling the cabin over the battery.
Hey Tom do you know if the Rivian can charge at higher amps on 120v like 24amps from a 30amp rv outlet? Or even 16 amps on a nema 5-20. Tesla can do both of those
Is 25 miles per hour only if you hard wire? What if you plug in the Rivian wall charger into a NEMA 14-50?
Can you schedule the Rivian Charger (or R1T itself) to charge to 100% at a certain time AND be fully conditioned if you were heading out on a road trip?
I've been using a plug in Chargepoint Home ever since 2018 and it is still running strong at the end of 2023. A good solid install is just as good as a hardwire setup.
As I recall, Tom presented Ford’s recommendation on pre-conditioning for the F150 Lightning. Set your time of expected departure in the morning and leave the car plugged in overnight and Ford’s software will precondition the battery automatically (at least that’s what I recall). Seems like a better approach than Rivian??
I use the term “range miles per charging hour” (acronym “rmpch”) to indicate miles added when charging, to differentiate it from “mph” which can introduce confusion. I have not seen this term/acronym elsewhere, although it may not have originated from me.
I have a Tesla Gen3 wall charger, just bought a Rivian wall charger to pair with my truck, to replace it, it kept overheating and it throttles back, even when its near freezing out, and the cable & the box are cold. Tesla replaced it once, this new one is doing the same thing... The Rivian charger is working perfectly! Love it, I'll keep this forever.
Hard wiring may be cheaper than the plug in alternative, especially if you use a severe-duty, “melt-proof” Hubbell 14-50 receptacle (instead of the home center cheapies that have been known to fail when subjected to the lengthy heat cycle of the large (100+ kWh) battery packs in the Rivian and Ford Lightning).
Mercedes doesn't include a charger..... very lame. They will sell you a 110v one....totally useless.
Hi Tom.
Thank you for this video. Do you notice the vampire drain that Alex on Autos was mentioning in his channel?
Tom why dont use make a testla charging video all these videos are ccs which is very reliable
Great video. It’s clear you’re very knowledgeable and care about people’s experience! I love watching your videos.
1 fase Ac or 3 fase ?
Keep in mind that a 48 amp EVSE circuit will need to be run with a 60A breaker so that means expensive cable runs if you have to run wires to a breaker panel. The vast majority of people would be fine with a 240V 16A EVSE (or in this case, the supplied Rivian portable EVSE in 240v mode) at home and top up at a DC fast charge station for the times you need, and a 7.6kw charger will be overkill for most people since you can charge 150 miles in a 10 hour overnight session which will be plenty for day to day use. You rarely need to charge to 100% unless you are going on a long trip and even then only your first leg of the trip will be 100% since DC fast charging will be so slow at 80% you are going to stop and drive if you can.
Agreed, after discussing with my electrician, we opted for the more expensive cable run as a bit of insurance and future proofing as the cable run itself was a major pain.
Besides charge speed, what the graph @25:20 tells me is how unrefined Rivian’s electronics are. There are so many spikes and troughs, it’s down right scary looking… even compared to something as rudimentary as a Lightning, which is basically just a converted F150.
It seems like the battery or thermal management system wasn’t designed right and they just used software after the fact, as a band aid solution, to quell customer expectations for quick charge times. I’ve never seen anything so unstable, not from VW, Hyundai, or Porsche, and certainly not from Tesla.
Yes, the spikes & troughs are terrible in comparison to the Lightning’s smoother curve. Power is fluctuating based on battery temperature. Hopefully Rivian can fix this with software, because this oscillation is awful.
Tom, our EQS580 shows SoC with range. Since I drive with maximum regen and a feather on the pedal, it reports 375 mi range at 90%. Do you think the EQS can deliver over 400 mi range or is this Guess O Meter faulty?
The EQS can absolutely reach 400 miles under the right conditions. I wouldn't call the range estimator faulty. It's just conservative.
Gave up on "the charger is in the vehicle" rant I see.
New game, take a drink every time Tom calls EVSE a charger.
Good catch. Tom gave up on EVSE term about 40 videos ago. It’s hard to find any vendor call these “source equipment” or “service equipment.” They use kiss theory in marketing.
There is one other way to warm the battery up before fast charging. hehe
Very informative. We have a Tesla home charger and waiting for our rivian. With an adapter can we get the full use of the Tesla home charger or do we need a second charger? Thanks!
We have a R1T and Model Y. The Tesla wall charger charges both with zero hassles. Just get the adaptor and you're good.
Tom, have a question... Would you recommend only DC Fast charging to 70/85 and then top off with level 2 when needing 100%? Longevity is what I'm most concerned about
If you have the time, probably, but if you're on a road trip and want to get going, don't be concerned about charging higher on DC fast if you need to. For daily charging, I'd recommend setting the vehicle to stop charging at 85% - no problem with DC fast charging up to that.
Thanks, this was my question as well!
Please get to one of Rivian's RAN DCFCs to see how much if any better the curve is. Those left coasters that are lucky enough to have them already seem to have much better curves than with the typical 3rd party CCS companies struggling to install hardware that consistently works. Also, by now you are probably aware the next OTA is going to release more usable battery pack on the low end per the release notes.
That won't make any difference at all. The truck is limiting the power, not the charging station.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney I don't think you have any evidence of that until you do it on a RAN DCFC. Multiple owners in the forums report much better peak charging rates for longer on the RAN DCFCs than EA or other units. How can you be sure there isn't a more proactive thermal management algorithm between the truck and RAN DCFC as soon as it plugs in rather than a reactive one like seems to be happening on 3rd party chargers. Could be anecdotal, but every single post I have seen from someone using a RAN DCFC has had a superior experience.
@Jay G I actually do have some data and have spoken to a few followers that have charged at them and explained their findings. Their charging curves look identical to what I've been observing.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney Good to know. Thanks! I would still like to see your first hand experience over a few sessions. Your ~20 minutes for ~100 miles added is pretty spot on to what I see on the 350 kW EA station I use a couple of times a month. Which also happens to be about the exact time for a Taco Bell lunch and bathroom break across the street. I liked having the graph in the app though. I think the next OTA and app update said they are bringing it back.
This is a pretty pathetic DC fast charge curve compared to Teslas, E-GMP and others.
Random question, will the Ford pro charger that can charge the Lightning at 80 amps will it charge the Mach E or any other J1772 at 80 amps as well? I know it has a CCS connecter on it just not sure if that’s for back up power not sure if it’s pushing 80 amps through the J1772.
Yes, it can charge any CCS EVs. I actually use it for daily charging on my R1T and you can even see the CCS connector plugged into the vehicle at the beginning of this video. The CCS pins are only used for the vehicle to home powering.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney OK great thank you for the info out of curiosity what is the max amperage on the j1772? Connector I just assumed it would be using CCS pins for the extra amps.
@@jim76356 80 amps is the max for J1772
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney Thanks !
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney So is there any benefit to an 80A charger for the R1T? I have a gen 2 Tesla charger that can hardwire to a 100A circuit, and charge at 80A. TeslaTap makes an 80A Tesla>J1772 adapter that will charge the Taycan at 20Kw.
I want to challenge the 80% mantra a little bit. On my EQS at 90% I'm still charging at 50KW. After that, it slows down quickly. I would propose that instead of the well advertised 80% SOC, it might be more useful to recommend stopping after the charge rate is less than 50kw. Of course its all relative, If you don't need 90 to reach your destination it doesnt matter, but if you are on a long drive that requires multiple stops, that extra 10 precent is nice and only adds a few minutes.
50kw is pretty slow especially with a giant 135kw pack
@Snared thats not the bulk speed you want, but it's still OK. In many areas of the country that's the fastest speed you'll find for a DC fast charger!
On a trip from Boston to S. Florida, ABRP recommended I charge roughly from 15-70% and charge more often to catch the “sweet spot” on a Tesla. Only where rarely needed did it ever tell me to charge over 80% because it’s a poor use of time.
@John Poldo
You have to move a little west out of the I 95 corridor... In addition Tesla's network is probably the best thing of the whole car. The non Tesla networks are fragmented and primarily clustered on the east and west coast. My closest DC charger more than 50KW is 126 miles away! We'll see how Teslas conversion to service CCS goes.....
@@Wised1000 Agree on fragmented non-Tesla DC fast charging. I've been driving a Tesla since 2017 and their charging network spoiled me. At a 2nd home, we are using a MB EV and charging for a road trip is awful in Florida. Many of the EA chargers don't work.
How many fossil fuels does it take to make and charge the entire EV space?
Way to focus on just 20-30% of the market lol
Tom, great video. I know L1 is not preferred, but if you talk about it you might want to mention 12 amp pull on a 15 amp circuit can lead to breaker tripping if other devices are in use. I think that is why VW offered a 12 amp L1 EVSE with the 24.2 kWh e-Golf but then switched to a 10 amp L1 EVSE for the 35.8 kWh e-Golf (my car), so L1 charging is especially long for me. I do use L1 when I visit and stay overnight at the in-laws house.
no they switched to a 10a to be cheaper for them. its just cost savings.
@@laloajuria4678 VW customer service told me they switched due to customer complaints of breaker tripping. Where is your cost analysis?
Hello, do you know when Rivian (or others) will be able to use Tesla chargers (using an adapter)?
You can use a Tesla Destination charger (level 2) now with an adaptor. Tesla Superchargers with what's called a Magic Dock will be available this year. The Magic Doc is simply a CCS connector at the Supercharger station. I speculate there will be a very limited number of chargers available at a given location with the MDs so as not to anger Tesla owners watching the network flooded with non Teslas.
More than happy with the 16A 240v EVSE for my R1T - I just don't drive it that much so I prefer the slower "trickle" charge and have max pack voltage set at 70%
It definitely will work for some. Just make sure to open your Nema 14-50 outlet every year and check the connections - especially if it has aluminum wiring inside.
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney no sir, a Nema 6-20R for a 3.8kW charger that I used on my previous PHEVs that couldn't handle more than 3.3kW due to their onboard AC charger limitations
Full copper wiring even in this 60s house, 200 AMP service because I have 5.5kW of Solar on the roof
@@StateOfChargeWithTomMoloughney and I am now realizing it sounded like I was using the Rivian mobile charger/EVSE - I am not
Good video, Except your level One at 1.4 kw will NOT give a Rivian R1T or R1S 2-3 miles of charge per hour. They are NOT that efficient.! IMO - testing.
I guess I could have said 1-3 miles/hr, but that's kinda splitting hairs, no? Definitely not getting 3 in the winter months, but in the warmer months and driving efficiently it can be done.
@State Of Charge Tom. Ok... 1.4 kw per hour would be right if the R1T got 2.8 miles per kwh or 4.2 miles per kwh. I've never seen a Rivian be that efficient summer or winter. Tom, your videos are awesome.
Think I’ve seen 4 mi/hr on L1 with my Tesla.
@John Poldo Yes, with a Tesla, but NOT a R1T or R1S.
tom, while i appreciate you correctly explaining how ppl misinterpret lvl 3 = dcfc, i would have prefered "sometimes incorrectly called lvl 3". even better, you can get super into the weeds and say lvl 3 does exist, but its AC 3 phase....
*5:05** More like 80% of America drives
With the cost of charging, might as well stay with gas and pay the same prices for a 3 minute fill up 🙄