Heyho! Greetings from Germany! Magnus here we know each other from Trackerschool 10+ years ago! I worked at the Paleon Schoeningen Spears Museum! (to be exact the spears were made by Homo Heidelbergensis the ancestor of Homo Neandertalensis the excavation is still ongoing)
I read that and the research I found mentioned likely built by both, but heavily used by Neanderthals. It’s hard with limited access to get all the facts, but it’s still fun to build them.
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks heidelbergensis is just the ancestor of neanderthals, it's not that important of a distinction, they're just even more archaic neanderthals, lacking the human like male lineage that later neanderthals acquired being even more apelike, where neanderthals were roughly 50% more human like thanks to a y chromosomal lineage replacement.
Magnus, have any animal remains been found around the location these spears were found? Curious to know what type of animals these ancient dudes were using the 'Schoeningen" spears on?
@@이이-n4z8y tell 90% of science journals that, "Y-chromosomal replacement" means human like males showed up where the neanderthals were, and well replaced them, meaning only the female neanderthals survived and had kids from that certain point around 300KYA.
I'm waiting for that life-size 3D foam mammoth. I can just imagine the neighbors when I set up a 12 foot tall fuzzy elephant in the back yard....not to mention the UPS driver that gets to deliver it.
The shape of those spears were pretty neat, keeps the correct orientation when in flight and the fact that the weight is more towards the tip means the tip gets driven in harder than if the weight was more middle third
This was awesome to warch! Thank you! I just learned more about spears in 11 minutes than I have in my entire life. Back in the 90's, I had a farm... My nephew and I were burning a bunch of scrub trees and tried fire hardening, smoking venison, and figuring out how to bend wood with heat. It evolved into two days of messing around and learning a ton. We built atlatls that weekend and have gotten fairly decent at lobbing pointed sticks. I cannot wait to show him this video! Thanks again!
Love this type of experimental archaeology! I usually have my nose in the papers so it's a nice change to see things actually put into practice. It's flying really well! Neanderthals were so strong that I don't think we can really test how they thrust properly. Our biomechanics are a bit different. But very cool to try. And I'd say you come pretty close with all the muscle you developed from working hard like in this video 💪
@@ingwiafraujaz3126 yeah…it was one of things I had to deal with…different species. I guess my focus was on building it and do they fly as a suitable hunting weapon. I have no doubt they got it done !
My understanding is that Neanderthal were shorter but more muscular. To throw a javelin a long way you want strength, weight and long arms. Not sure about Neanderthal arm length but I guess they wouldn't make a bunch unless they worked. Amazing technology for the time.
Discovered your channel by accident while searching stone age methods. Much thanks for showing the technique and testing it, really appreciate to learn more about stone age crafting! :D
I remember a german documentation, where a german athlet as part of an experiment threw reconstrutions of these spears. With some practise he soon reached the same distances as with modern olympic javelins. While stone age people might not have thrown for maximum distance, it showed that they already knew how to optimize their tools even with the primitive technologies they had at hand. I work in a open air museum in Germany (Oerlinghausen) where we cover the time from stone ages to early medieval period. The spear thrower is another fascinating stone age technology that showcase what a keen eye for applied physics these people had and how to use it to their advantage long before the formulas behind it were discovered.
No, the athletes didn t reach modern olympic javelin distance. By far. Their best throws reached 20 meters according to the studies. Don t spread misinformation
@@Toxicpoolofreekingmascul-lj4yd to be fair, the studies measured throws aimed at a precise object to simulate hunting. So they could probably throw further, just not accurately. However these prehistorical javelins are still far from equaling the performance of modern olympic javelins
Autistic developmental pathways appear to be from Neanderthal heritage. We know they had bigger, differently proportioned brains from ours, less folds in the cortex (grey matter), but probably more cross connections (white matter) throughout. It appears they invented religion, art, and language, too. They may have been an entire race of savants -- very different from us, likely less social, possibly less consceince, but far smarter.
Thank you that was an excellent example of experimental archeology and very well illustrated. I noted the last throw of the spear took on a sideways curve all on its own possibly down to vibration in the wood itself. Many of the mediums we worked in back then left no trace but if you look at an ancient arrow it has fletches/feathers to give drag to the back of the shaft and keep it in straight flight. I imagine that your beautiful ancient spear might have simply had a few long feathers just bound onto the back of its shaft because we have known about aerodynamics since before we had a scientific name for it. I’d love to see the result of a short experiment on the addition of a few loose feathers. Congratulations on your hard and excellent work.
I have thought along the same lines especially how easy it would be to drag stabilize a spear. In recent history but on the other side of BC/AD mark there were javelins or spears that carried fletching as atlatl darts and arrows do. If I could find the source I would leave it here or a link if it was digital. It frustrated me when I was a kid that all of my "spears" (tobacco stalks and tobacco sticks when I was five to seven or eight and then river cane and hickory saplings once I carried a good knife) soared like an old Nova going down the road until it somehow turned into a Mustang and the nose and tail switched and tried to take out spectators, my buddies. I didn't understand FOC weighting but I figured out they flew better heavy end first. That's as far as I got with it until critical thinking began to emerged. Actually I was watching drag racing and an announcer made some comment about the parachute deployed at 1/4 mile plus 10' drab stabilized the rail dragster. Eurekar! -------------Peace
Fascinating. As you were working I thought to myself that every action and process you went through, Neanderthals, over tens of thousands of years, did countless times. Nice, simple demo, and in a landscape they would have lived in. Liked and subscribed!
Really fascinating to see this ancient tech in practice! I seem to remember reading years ago that there was a question whether neanderthals had shoulder joints capable of effective range of motion for throwing overhand. But it seems convincing that this was not the case. If anything, given their strength, they must have had one hell of a throw.
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I’m sure, just like people today throwing and hunting throwing likely developed and capabilities improved! Thanks for watching!
Love your videos. They sparked an interest in me that I Kind of forgot I had and help bring me out of a very difficult and trying time in my life. With some help from others, determination, and (in all seriousness) videos such as yours that reminded me what I enjoyed out of life before serious addiction took control of my life, I am able to say I am not the same person I was not very long ago, far from it and I’m never going back. Thank you Donny.
Ah, good to see you again. thanks for the virtual visit here. Am thinkin of goin out and finding some nice atlatl type dart branches, and maybe look for some quartz or chirt or agate at a muddy dam. But at least their is a rather friendly beaver out there. Polte fella too, hehe, slapped his tail and dove when I came near and startled, hung out and plinked with bow and kinda waved and let him know was no threat, he hung out on surface nice and calm watchin. When I waved goodby on way out, he slapped gently back kinda like a wave back i figure. Hehe, maybe a good day for it. Anywho.. A belated happy 4th, and Canada day all rolled up in one there bud. Thanks for the great lessons. All kids and parents should do and learn how. Besides, is great fun time to talk. Folks just seldom get that kinda time it seems. Cheers.
Excellent video Donny. Sure is fun watching you work brother. Old age has taken me out of the game but I can still sit on the sidelines. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Sir. Many blessings.
Amazing that our ancestors understood how basic physics worked and incorporated it into the design of these spears. Also Amazing that they used these kind of tools to fight megafauna to survive and here we are today, the product of their struggle.
Couldn't stop smiling when you started throwing it. You can really tell this technology had already been in use for hundreds of thousands of years. Just out of curiosity, how old are your tattoo sleeves? They're very faded.
I liked seeing you using the big rock like a rough material removal work bench. Maybe a sharp-broken found boulder was used 'back in the day'. Also girdling and breaking rather than trying to saw/whittle all the way through is good to show folks.
Hey Donnie, I've been familiar with your content since Alone and really enjoy it! We see a lot of your stonework but could we get a video breaking down some of your leather bags and pouches? Keep up the good work!
I'm going to have a go at this in the near future. Although being from Australia I might have to try a different type of timber. Maybe a sheoak. The indigenous Aussies used that for other weapons and I've made boomerangs out of it before that performed pretty well. Love your videos
Thanks so much. Appreciate it. I’m sure there are woods available in Australia that would make an exceptional Schoningen spear. Love to hear what you would come up with. 🤙
Blackwood wattle also known as Tasmanian blackwood is one of the best Australian timbers for wood working. I have made guitars from it. Its slightly lighter weight than Black or drooping sheoak. Its extremely strong along the grain.
I find it fascinating that even neanderthals used pine. It cool to think about how old our pine species is. Reminder to respect the forest and it's trees. Its unrecreatable.
It's so cool to watch you make this spear, I used to do this as a kid with my buck knife any time we went camping or I went adventuring out in the land surrounding my dad's farm. I feel like kids today are missing this cool part of growing up. No one told me how to do it, we didn't have modern internet back then, I just did it... instinctually? Genetic memory maybe? I don't know
I really appreciate your videos i always learn something new thank you. What is the penatration like with this spear i know lots of factors would go into it this would be fun to do some testing with carcass or ballistic gel i dont know but would be cool to find out thank you again
Wonderful video, thank you 😊The tip seems really rather broad and blunt. Do you think that they may have had a keener point and had to replenish or replace them more often or would the tip shape in this video have enough mass behind it to puncture the game's hide?
I believe they ram the spear into what they were hunting more often, seeing it barely stick the ground. I can't see it piercing a thick hide unless they were really close
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks Giving the fact that Neanderthals were something like twice stronger than Cro-Magnons and Cro-Magnons were like modern athletes, their throw should be really deadly. If you will able to pierce a carcass with your own muscles, than Neanderthals would not needed any sharp tip at all, because of their power.
Great throws you made there.😮 I had heard the tip could be hardened by thrusting it into the coals/dirt below the fire where there was less oxygen. Then again it is just something I heard. 🤗🙄🤗
just saw a documentary about these spears, the point was off center where the wood is a little harder. Great respect for your work and ability. Question: were these spears thrown or were they maid for stabbing?
I too built one of the spears for testing last year. While I found it's flight to be effective, tests on a freshly killed hog carcass showed zero penetration when thrown- even from close distance. However, as a thrusting spear it went through the hide, fat and meat without issue. This leads me to believe that if thrown, they were better used as a tool to drive prey in a direction such as an ambush point. OR they were simply double sided thrusting spears.
I've always imagined homo X, Y, Z whichever group it is we're talking about at the time to kinda production lining a lot of this stuff. If you've got 10 prospective shafts that need debarking have the kids do that, save the adult labour resources for more precision based stuff like hardening, straightening, pointing etc. I reckon a lot of tools and weapons were worked intermittently in bulk on and off especially if you routinely have certain members of a group that separate to go off and hunt, fish, gather, patrol or whatever else. A lot of spears were probably worked on by different people, including women and kids.
10:53 I had this same thought when you were throwing the spear. These had to be thrown in a group volley at an intended target(s). Definitely effective, also highlighting how hunting would be a group effort. I think that they probably also used used some runners to guide a herd of ungulates into a box canyon where a group of spear hurlers could maximize their harvest by casting volleys of spears into a traffic jam of meat. No reason why a hunting party couldn't carry two or three per person.
In my opinion stone knives are better than metal because with a metal blade you would need a whetstone to sharpen it but with a stone blade you just have to flake it and also the satisfaction I get from making a good strong stone blade just makes the experience 1000 times better
Dude the extremely high efficiency of metal blades is worth the time you'll need to spend to sharpen it again from time to time. It's not rocket science, it's quick and easy once you've learned how to do it. If humans changed their stone tools for bronze, iron and steel tools it's not because they are stupid! It's because those metal tools are a huge improvement!
@@Garrettcoulter totally understand if making stone knives is more to your liking, but obviously metal knives are better. If they weren’t, we’d still be using stone knives as the default selection
From my own research _(I'm just a guy with access to the Internet and no formal education regarding archeology)_ neanderthals being super strong actually is somewhat of a myth- on average, they were slightly stronger than the average Sapien, but not by much. Pretty much, someone who does strongman competitions has about the same strength as neanderthals
@@Jayman2800 interesting for sure. I have one archeology class at a community college…that’s about it, but 20 plus years of trying to take something read in academic papers and make it real. For this I focused more on “could they fly” and “could they be thrown”. I think it worked out.
@@Jayman2800 Soo... You're saying Donny could take em! 😂 There's certainly plenty we don't know about them. I have read papers estimating their muscle mass, but I have no idea if they've held up or what the current consensus is. I have no compelling reason to doubt you or take a side.
They definitely did have thicker, denser bones than sapiens though. I still think the average (decently fit) modern sapien could take on the average Neanderthal because we are taller. We don’t have brow ridges though.
As kids in the UK we messed with willow and hazel. To start with, no spruce, next, they could come pretty damn straight, then few if any side branches, and they could be fires hardened. There were also holly, elm, oak, and alder- all can be found straight.
Nice work and great video! I'm pretty sure they just rubbed it against some coarse rock wall or something instead of making the deluxe custom version made with nice flints :)
You had a few really good throws during the video. Do you suppose the users were fairly close to their targets? Just wondering about penetration and too far a throw not having enough velocity to puncture the animal hide?
I would think a coarse flat or slightly rounded boulder with a notch could be a faster & easier way to rough in the shape of the shaft. This would let you grind the shaft like low grit sand paper to knock down the stubs & bark using minimal energy vs the flake sawing. Love the tree vice & shaping for sure. Super clean. The fire hardening does introduce some carbon as well as a small portion of that becoming graphite which will genuinely harden it slightly beyond that of dried wood.
I’m sure different tools were used, however I went with the minimal approach to show that it could be done. Wood hardening…not so much. Wood drying and reducing the moisture, crystallizing the sap…absolutely. Its hard to burn something to create a hardness that is going to be harder the. Wood itself. Dry wood, forced dried by fire…cut when wet. Absolutely!
Found you with shorts but im so glad i got to catch one of your long form videos 😊 Ps watching you throw do you think there was much difference between throwing exactly at the balance point or thightly fore or aft of it "inch or less"?
Thanks for following along. In all honesty…now that my spear has had about a week to dry, my balance point has slightly shifted forward. My spear has dropped mass from dry time and thus changed my throwing point.
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks very interesting 🤔 hope to see more 👍 thanks for the update after the drying time too. My main curiosity was because I've never tried throwing anything that wasn't a ball so I didn't really know how to grasp it. Obviously close to the balance point but the point at the pinky finger the index finger or the middle finger kind of thought. No need to reply I'm definitely going to keep watching as long as youtube let's me know you posted.
Hey Donny, I've been following you for a while and love the videos. This might be asked before, but I'd like to know, what kind of shoes do you wear or what do you recommend to wear when you hike a lot?
I’m a pretty simple guy. Sandals most the time when it’s warm, my old military boots when cold, moccasins when it cool/warm…but a tennis/hiking shoe with a big toe box if I am hiking. Brands…nothing particular.
Gotta remember too, Neanderthals were more robust physically than us, they would've had more strength to throw a spear like that a lot farther and with more force.
Maybe, longer arms = higher speed. Maybe Neanderthal were short but had long arms? I dont know. I assume a javelin might have been used at close range in an ambush type situation with beaters/drivers causing the animals to run towards the ambush. Javelins travel pretty slowly so hitting an animal at long range would require the animal to be totally unaware until impact.
Nice demo, thanks. But that point doesn't look like it will penetrate hide. How sharp a point can you make 'hardened wood' before it becomes too fragile?
I think sometime in winter I requested this video. Thank you! I had a hard time finding exact specifications for Schöningen spears so this video helps a lot. Although the spears are great, in your honest opinion does spruce suck as a spear wood?
@@Toxicpoolofreekingmascul-lj4yd oh ok👍yeah, i was just wondering because i made one of pine and it was just too soft and overall just wasn't great. I mean it definetly worked, but wasn't great. I will definetly try spruce👍
Fascinating video. How sure are we that these were Neanderthal spears? I thought their shoulder anatomy was not so suitable for throwing. If archeologists say "modern humans weren't around then", I must counter that there are plenty of surprise discoveries that change timelines a little. Seeing you throw this thing really makes me realise the benefit of a bow and arrow is not just whatever tactical advantage it has, but that old men can shoot a bow. To get the most out of a javelin is a young mans game. That could have huge implications for the wider social pecking order in a tribe, how much wisdom gets to incubate for longer, how many capable hunters they can have in their ranks vs how many mouths to feed. The Australian Aboriginals had much thinner, lighter, wood-pointed spears, and used woomera spear thrower - I wonder how this technology fits in with the heavier javelin, what different animals they might be good for. The light spear and woomera combination seems to sit inbetween the javelin and the bow and arrow. Looking at you use the stone tools to make that spear, I can't help but think there must be/have been easier ways. You grind the spear on a larger rock, but I wonder if particular large rocks could be found that have wedges in them, V shaped or whatever, that you can drag the spear through to deburr all those branches off quicker. I also wonder if you could use fire a bit more, put the whole spear in a fire with the bark still on, control how much the fire takes hold. It might be able to burn away the twigs, parts of the bark.
Just an odd question. As a qualifier, I’ve read a lot about this spear as both a throwing spear and a thrusting spear and all loads of commentary in between. Hypothetically, as a thrower and a simple spear one might make in a survival sort of scenario, would bladelets/microliths work to make it in anyway more effective or would that require a change to the overall spear? I hope that makes sense.
Makes total sense. I think small microliths on a spear are very practical and can really cut into a hose. I like to think with the change of game, climate and geography…early hominids changed their approach with different variables…adding bone or stone cutting elements as needed. The Schoningen spears are only ten finds…these could have belonged to a small clan that hunted light skinned animals where hardened wood worked. Another clan in colder climates could need stone bladders to cut through thick hides and fur. I think the environment was a factor.
Excellent work. Looks like its not your first time throwing a javelin :) Did you end up weighing it? I just read up that 2 replicas were made, one weighed 760g and the other 800g. I find that amazing because 800g is the weight men use at the Olympics.
I did throw javelin in HS so I thought I have a better chance of replicating the throws trajectory accurately. Weight will change. I cut the wood fresh and after time it started to dry out. During my throws it had some mass, now I would say it’s fully dried out and its mass would be appropriate to weigh.
Nice video. What kind of wood did you use? To me it looks quite heavy for a pine tree. The originals were made of very light and not very hard wood (due to availability i propose). Wouldn't it be easier to plain the branches, before you remove the bough? I habe no experience with flint tools, but that is what I would have done.
Donny, have you ever heard of the antler-point spears from the early european Aurignacium? It seems that for a very short timeframe (I think only around 5000 years), straight, long trees for spear shafts were so scarce, that people did not notch the front of the shaft to insert a stone point and risk the rare shaft splitting open the entire way. Usually, as you well know, it's the spearhead that takes great effort and is most at risk of breaking. Well, since the wood was so rare, they used reindeer antlers as spear heads that were notched, accepting a spearshaft that looked much like your example here. An engineer would call this a "female" shaft adapter, rather than a "male" adapter. The point might split on impact, but reindeer was abundand, wood was not, so you could always replace the basically sacrificial spearpoint. I was wondering if you've heard of this and have any plans of demonstrating this fascinating and shortlived spear type to a more general audience
With even a small stone point that would be an effective boar spear. The only thing that surprised me was you didn't use the antler to polish the front third, while not able to be determined in the archeological evidence, polishing would certainly be a good move to aid in strength and, potentially, in penetration. Even if it only goes a 16th of an inch deeper because of polishing, that could be the difference between clipping an artery and getting a meal or sitting by that campfire with a growling belly.
Large spears for short range large animals, also stabbing, power in numbers like he mentions, and then thinner lighter ones for distance or small animals. But generally I think lighter shafts would do the trick for throwing. Probably every possible variation and different wood types were used maybe making specialized artilleries
I live in the finger lakes region of NYS in between Buffalo and Rochester...I keep finding a wide variety of large spearheads and finely ground damn near paper thin knives and scrapers made from limestone... I've looked at museum collections and the back room research collections.. some of the heads are the size of my hand,I find zero cultural attribution to these anywhere, when I do see similar sometimes virtually the same tool, they are all from Europe and Africa and are a million years old.. The famous anthropologist Louis Leaky visited a site by the lakes in the 50 and said that aside from the lithic differences, that the stuff was so similar to neanderthal and older..we have sites older than 13000 years close by.. the certified genuine neanderthal tools I have,I have the same thing in a local stone, but no one has an interest because they are just limestone or don't fit in the timeline...gets frustrating
@@Tiagabby4 great question. I have no doubt tips were reworked again and again. My started sharp enough to hunt, but after about 30 throws it dulled out. In my opinion if a hunter missed, spear took some tip damage or wear it was likely reworked!!!!
Me an my younger brother made these when we were 8 or 10 yrs old, now mid 60's, never knew they had a name. But we grew up in the swamps of Fla an used local hardwoods, an they were effective. Fire hardened the tips also, but what do kids know, we were copying zulu spears as thats all we knew about then. Now I would flint spearheads out of something if I had to. Thx for the vid tho.
I've read where the section that is closest to the core of the tree is the densest part because it is the oldest. And you generated all that kindling and fire starter knocking off the stubs and bark.
Of course Neanderthal's would have made better ones as they used them and would have iterated this hundreds if not thousands of times, but this was a good demonstration of the process.
Heyho! Greetings from Germany! Magnus here we know each other from Trackerschool 10+ years ago! I worked at the Paleon Schoeningen Spears Museum! (to be exact the spears were made by Homo Heidelbergensis the ancestor of Homo Neandertalensis the excavation is still ongoing)
I read that and the research I found mentioned likely built by both, but heavily used by Neanderthals. It’s hard with limited access to get all the facts, but it’s still fun to build them.
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks heidelbergensis is just the ancestor of neanderthals, it's not that important of a distinction, they're just even more archaic neanderthals, lacking the human like male lineage that later neanderthals acquired being even more apelike, where neanderthals were roughly 50% more human like thanks to a y chromosomal lineage replacement.
Magnus, have any animal remains been found around the location these spears were found? Curious to know what type of animals these ancient dudes were using the 'Schoeningen" spears on?
@@jzjzjzjWhat, hahahaha, what nonsense
@@이이-n4z8y tell 90% of science journals that, "Y-chromosomal replacement" means human like males showed up where the neanderthals were, and well replaced them, meaning only the female neanderthals survived and had kids from that certain point around 300KYA.
The hard part is finding 400,000 yr old elk to throw it at.
@@keithwhittington1322 hahaha. No doubt. Maybe some hogs in Texas on a future video.
I'm waiting for that life-size 3D foam mammoth. I can just imagine the neighbors when I set up a 12 foot tall fuzzy elephant in the back yard....not to mention the UPS driver that gets to deliver it.
lol, you’re never getting penetration throwing that heavy spear. You need an atlatl
I mean, looking at what we know of Schöningen, it seems that it was horses what got targeted the most.
This is a project ive been planning myself for a while! The schöningen spears are my favourite of the neanderthal finds. Amazing work!
Awesome! Thank you! It was a fun build and with some practice a very effective hunting tool. 🤙
Best youtube survivalist. No macho garbage, no annoying background music, least worst beard.
No fancy gadgets either, showing it can be done with nothing
Entendi as referências hahaha
ikr so many campers on yt eating nachos and cooking in nasty vegetable oils it makes me puke
The shape of those spears were pretty neat, keeps the correct orientation when in flight and the fact that the weight is more towards the tip means the tip gets driven in harder than if the weight was more middle third
Absolutely. It was a pretty amazing marvel of ingenuity and adaptation. Try masters of their craft. Thanks for watching 🤙
Thank You Donny for bringing history to life, Excellent as always.
My pleasure. Appreciate you watching!
Another amazing and educational video from the most entertaining and authentic survival channel on TH-cam. Thanks again Donny!
Appreciate you watching!
This was awesome to warch! Thank you! I just learned more about spears in 11 minutes than I have in my entire life. Back in the 90's, I had a farm... My nephew and I were burning a bunch of scrub trees and tried fire hardening, smoking venison, and figuring out how to bend wood with heat. It evolved into two days of messing around and learning a ton. We built atlatls that weekend and have gotten fairly decent at lobbing pointed sticks. I cannot wait to show him this video! Thanks again!
My absolute pleasure. Thanks so be much for watching. Lots of lessons come from messing around. 🤙
Love this type of experimental archaeology! I usually have my nose in the papers so it's a nice change to see things actually put into practice. It's flying really well! Neanderthals were so strong that I don't think we can really test how they thrust properly. Our biomechanics are a bit different. But very cool to try. And I'd say you come pretty close with all the muscle you developed from working hard like in this video 💪
@@ingwiafraujaz3126 yeah…it was one of things I had to deal with…different species. I guess my focus was on building it and do they fly as a suitable hunting weapon. I have no doubt they got it done !
My understanding is that Neanderthal were shorter but more muscular. To throw a javelin a long way you want strength, weight and long arms. Not sure about Neanderthal arm length but I guess they wouldn't make a bunch unless they worked. Amazing technology for the time.
Discovered your channel by accident while searching stone age methods. Much thanks for showing the technique and testing it, really appreciate to learn more about stone age crafting! :D
I remember a german documentation, where a german athlet as part of an experiment threw reconstrutions of these spears. With some practise he soon reached the same distances as with modern olympic javelins. While stone age people might not have thrown for maximum distance, it showed that they already knew how to optimize their tools even with the primitive technologies they had at hand.
I work in a open air museum in Germany (Oerlinghausen) where we cover the time from stone ages to early medieval period.
The spear thrower is another fascinating stone age technology that showcase what a keen eye for applied physics these people had and how to use it to their advantage long before the formulas behind it were discovered.
No, the athletes didn t reach modern olympic javelin distance. By far. Their best throws reached 20 meters according to the studies. Don t spread misinformation
@@Toxicpoolofreekingmascul-lj4yd to be fair, the studies measured throws aimed at a precise object to simulate hunting. So they could probably throw further, just not accurately.
However these prehistorical javelins are still far from equaling the performance of modern olympic javelins
Neanderthals were badass.
Absolutely no doubt!
Autistic developmental pathways appear to be from Neanderthal heritage. We know they had bigger, differently proportioned brains from ours, less folds in the cortex (grey matter), but probably more cross connections (white matter) throughout. It appears they invented religion, art, and language, too. They may have been an entire race of savants -- very different from us, likely less social, possibly less consceince, but far smarter.
@@willcool713 that’s a fair assessment and very likely true in some ways!! Thanks!
I am 45% Neanderthal.
@@RachDarastrix2 Judging by the hair on my ass, I'm 65% Neanderthal, no kidding🤣
Thank you that was an excellent example of experimental archeology and very well illustrated. I noted the last throw of the spear took on a sideways curve all on its own possibly down to vibration in the wood itself. Many of the mediums we worked in back then left no trace but if you look at an ancient arrow it has fletches/feathers to give drag to the back of the shaft and keep it in straight flight. I imagine that your beautiful ancient spear might have simply had a few long feathers just bound onto the back of its shaft because we have known about aerodynamics since before we had a scientific name for it. I’d love to see the result of a short experiment on the addition of a few loose feathers. Congratulations on your hard and excellent work.
I have thought along the same lines especially how easy it would be to drag stabilize a spear. In recent history but on the other side of BC/AD mark there were javelins or spears that carried fletching as atlatl darts and arrows do. If I could find the source I would leave it here or a link if it was digital. It frustrated me when I was a kid that all of my "spears" (tobacco stalks and tobacco sticks when I was five to seven or eight and then river cane and hickory saplings once I carried a good knife) soared like an old Nova going down the road until it somehow turned into a Mustang and the nose and tail switched and tried to take out spectators, my buddies. I didn't understand FOC weighting but I figured out they flew better heavy end first. That's as far as I got with it until critical thinking began to emerged. Actually I was watching drag racing and an announcer made some comment about the parachute deployed at 1/4 mile plus 10' drab stabilized the rail dragster. Eurekar! -------------Peace
Fascinating. As you were working I thought to myself that every action and process you went through, Neanderthals, over tens of thousands of years, did countless times. Nice, simple demo, and in a landscape they would have lived in. Liked and subscribed!
Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks so very much for that. I appreciate it greatly!!!
Canal excelente! Gostei muito da tecnica de arremesso de lança, muito bom desempenho.
Thanks for the video. I show my students your vids when we talk about experimental archeology and neolithic culture.
Loved the shots of Finn watching the spear fly and the one of him running after it 😂
Haha. He’s always there!!!
absolutely love the content ! always inspired me to start making these tools too
Get on it!!! Enjoy the process. Thanks for watching!
Really fascinating to see this ancient tech in practice! I seem to remember reading years ago that there was a question whether neanderthals had shoulder joints capable of effective range of motion for throwing overhand. But it seems convincing that this was not the case. If anything, given their strength, they must have had one hell of a throw.
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I’m sure, just like people today throwing and hunting throwing likely developed and capabilities improved! Thanks for watching!
Love your videos. They sparked an interest in me that I Kind of forgot I had and help bring me out of a very difficult and trying time in my life. With some help from others, determination, and (in all seriousness) videos such as yours that reminded me what I enjoyed out of life before serious addiction took control of my life, I am able to say I am not the same person I was not very long ago, far from it and I’m never going back. Thank you Donny.
Wonderful! Life is a journey and we learn and adapt from it. Much respect and appreciation for you watching and your personal growth 🤙
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks the appreciation is all mine. Thank you
Ah, good to see you again. thanks for the virtual visit here. Am thinkin of goin out and finding some nice atlatl type dart branches, and maybe look for some quartz or chirt or agate at a muddy dam. But at least their is a rather friendly beaver out there. Polte fella too, hehe, slapped his tail and dove when I came near and startled, hung out and plinked with bow and kinda waved and let him know was no threat, he hung out on surface nice and calm watchin. When I waved goodby on way out, he slapped gently back kinda like a wave back i figure. Hehe, maybe a good day for it. Anywho.. A belated happy 4th, and Canada day all rolled up in one there bud. Thanks for the great lessons. All kids and parents should do and learn how. Besides, is great fun time to talk. Folks just seldom get that kinda time it seems. Cheers.
Appreciate the hell out of it, Donny. That was pretty damned cool.
@@RyanMclain thanks so very much for watching! Appreciate it greatly!
Excellent video Donny. Sure is fun watching you work brother. Old age has taken me out of the game but I can still sit on the sidelines. Thanks for sharing your knowledge Sir. Many blessings.
Much respect and appreciation. Thanks so much for wand following the adventures 🤙
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks My pleasure
SWEET THROW.... That forward weight and trailing distal taper certainly guides the flight beautifully. Right on!
Yes it does! Thanks for watching!
Blessed Love ❤️🔥 Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for listening and watching!
Vampires be sweatin.
im so glad this wasnt silliness. i loved this, i felt like i was in an outdoor classroom.
Sir this was a very informative video thank you for sharing this six stars brother
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks so much for watching!
Amazing that our ancestors understood how basic physics worked and incorporated it into the design of these spears. Also Amazing that they used these kind of tools to fight megafauna to survive and here we are today, the product of their struggle.
The amount of time that went in to this. So much work for something most people wiuld call a "simple" tool. Its truly fascinating
This is the first video ive seen on how to make these in detail seems like stone tools are the way you get almost a perfect replica using them
@@ambiguousman_6961 absolutely. In my opinion…what’s the point of building 400,000 year old weapons with modern tools.
A good job..thanks for
the how to's!!
Now..off to find a good candidate, for a
spear!!
👍🐺🧙♂️🦊👌
Absolutely. Thanks for watching
Awsome video as always, thank you for your content 😊
Glad you enjoy it! Thanks so much for your time!!!🤙
Does the sap in the wood effect the fire hardening? Btw, loved your rabbit stick video!
It does as I imagine it could make the wood more durable from heating it, but I can’t imagine it impacts the overall flight.
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks thanks Donny👍🏻
Superb video dude, loved that! flew well too.
Glad you enjoyed it. Appreciate you watching! Thanks
Couldn't stop smiling when you started throwing it. You can really tell this technology had already been in use for hundreds of thousands of years.
Just out of curiosity, how old are your tattoo sleeves? They're very faded.
Thanks. Appreciate you watching. My tattoos I started getting around 18/19…I’m 44 now…so absolutely faded!!!
I liked seeing you using the big rock like a rough material removal work bench. Maybe a sharp-broken found boulder was used 'back in the day'. Also girdling and breaking rather than trying to saw/whittle all the way through is good to show folks.
Thanks so much. Having done a couple in the past…you learn some tricks or best practices!
Hey Donnie, I've been familiar with your content since Alone and really enjoy it! We see a lot of your stonework but could we get a video breaking down some of your leather bags and pouches? Keep up the good work!
I'm going to have a go at this in the near future. Although being from Australia I might have to try a different type of timber. Maybe a sheoak. The indigenous Aussies used that for other weapons and I've made boomerangs out of it before that performed pretty well. Love your videos
Thanks so much. Appreciate it. I’m sure there are woods available in Australia that would make an exceptional Schoningen spear. Love to hear what you would come up with. 🤙
Blackwood wattle also known as Tasmanian blackwood is one of the best Australian timbers for wood working. I have made guitars from it. Its slightly lighter weight than Black or drooping sheoak. Its extremely strong along the grain.
Can u make rope out of the bark ?
Thank you for the awesome video
That traveled a lot farther than I thought it would!
Thanks. Appreciate you watching!
I find it fascinating that even neanderthals used pine. It cool to think about how old our pine species is. Reminder to respect the forest and it's trees. Its unrecreatable.
It's so cool to watch you make this spear, I used to do this as a kid with my buck knife any time we went camping or I went adventuring out in the land surrounding my dad's farm. I feel like kids today are missing this cool part of growing up. No one told me how to do it, we didn't have modern internet back then, I just did it... instinctually? Genetic memory maybe? I don't know
Fantastic content. Thanks for a little longer sit.
My absolute pleasure. Appreciate you watching!
I really appreciate your videos i always learn something new thank you. What is the penatration like with this spear i know lots of factors would go into it this would be fun to do some testing with carcass or ballistic gel i dont know but would be cool to find out thank you again
I’ll do a future test for sure. Appreciate you watching!
Great channel, thanks. Love the content.
Glad you enjoy it! Appreciate you watching!
Great video keep up the good work:)
Thanks, will do!🤙
Why is this so satisfying to watch;)
The original builder of that style of spear had a sound working understanding of ballistics and aerodynamics.
Wonderful video, thank you 😊The tip seems really rather broad and blunt. Do you think that they may have had a keener point and had to replenish or replace them more often or would the tip shape in this video have enough mass behind it to puncture the game's hide?
This video is definitely on point.
I believe they ram the spear into what they were hunting more often, seeing it barely stick the ground. I can't see it piercing a thick hide unless they were really close
I’ll do some tests on some carcasses soon!!!
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks Giving the fact that Neanderthals were something like twice stronger than Cro-Magnons and Cro-Magnons were like modern athletes, their throw should be really deadly. If you will able to pierce a carcass with your own muscles, than Neanderthals would not needed any sharp tip at all, because of their power.
Well too be fair I'm sure none of us compare to Neanderthal strength
Very good content, thank you Sir!
Great throws you made there.😮 I had heard the tip could be hardened by thrusting it into the coals/dirt below the fire where there was less oxygen. Then again it is just something I heard. 🤗🙄🤗
Super interesting. How many hours of practice did it take to learn to throw straight?
just saw a documentary about these spears, the point was off center where the wood is a little harder.
Great respect for your work and ability. Question: were these spears thrown or were they maid for stabbing?
I too built one of the spears for testing last year. While I found it's flight to be effective, tests on a freshly killed hog carcass showed zero penetration when thrown- even from close distance. However, as a thrusting spear it went through the hide, fat and meat without issue. This leads me to believe that if thrown, they were better used as a tool to drive prey in a direction such as an ambush point. OR they were simply double sided thrusting spears.
I've always imagined homo X, Y, Z whichever group it is we're talking about at the time to kinda production lining a lot of this stuff. If you've got 10 prospective shafts that need debarking have the kids do that, save the adult labour resources for more precision based stuff like hardening, straightening, pointing etc. I reckon a lot of tools and weapons were worked intermittently in bulk on and off especially if you routinely have certain members of a group that separate to go off and hunt, fish, gather, patrol or whatever else. A lot of spears were probably worked on by different people, including women and kids.
10:53 I had this same thought when you were throwing the spear. These had to be thrown in a group volley at an intended target(s). Definitely effective, also highlighting how hunting would be a group effort. I think that they probably also used used some runners to guide a herd of ungulates into a box canyon where a group of spear hurlers could maximize their harvest by casting volleys of spears into a traffic jam of meat. No reason why a hunting party couldn't carry two or three per person.
This was absolutely a hunting party type weapon. I would assess most groups employed weapons together targeting specific animals of the heard.
In my opinion stone knives are better than metal because with a metal blade you would need a whetstone to sharpen it but with a stone blade you just have to flake it and also the satisfaction I get from making a good strong stone blade just makes the experience 1000 times better
Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. Stone is the way to go!
Dude the extremely high efficiency of metal blades is worth the time you'll need to spend to sharpen it again from time to time. It's not rocket science, it's quick and easy once you've learned how to do it. If humans changed their stone tools for bronze, iron and steel tools it's not because they are stupid! It's because those metal tools are a huge improvement!
@@Garrettcoulter totally understand if making stone knives is more to your liking, but obviously metal knives are better. If they weren’t, we’d still be using stone knives as the default selection
Awesome video again.
@@danholmblad9925 much respect and appreciation!!!🤙
Donny will survive !
I've never heard about that. Awesome! Keep in mind that neanderthals were probably much stronger (muscular) than us too when throwing that javelin!
I have no doubt they had some raw strength that I and we don’t have. Appreciate you watching!
From my own research _(I'm just a guy with access to the Internet and no formal education regarding archeology)_ neanderthals being super strong actually is somewhat of a myth- on average, they were slightly stronger than the average Sapien, but not by much. Pretty much, someone who does strongman competitions has about the same strength as neanderthals
@@Jayman2800 interesting for sure. I have one archeology class at a community college…that’s about it, but 20 plus years of trying to take something read in academic papers and make it real. For this I focused more on “could they fly” and “could they be thrown”. I think it worked out.
@@Jayman2800 Soo... You're saying Donny could take em! 😂
There's certainly plenty we don't know about them. I have read papers estimating their muscle mass, but I have no idea if they've held up or what the current consensus is. I have no compelling reason to doubt you or take a side.
They definitely did have thicker, denser bones than sapiens though. I still think the average (decently fit) modern sapien could take on the average Neanderthal because we are taller. We don’t have brow ridges though.
As kids in the UK we messed with willow and hazel. To start with, no spruce, next, they could come pretty damn straight, then few if any side branches, and they could be fires hardened. There were also holly, elm, oak, and alder- all can be found straight.
Fan from canada 🇨🇦 do you do any winter survival ?
@@Mike-METALS I do. I have lots of winter videos and more coming this winter. Thanks for watching!!!
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks I'm a new sub but been watching 👀 alot before thanks 😊 🙏
If shit hits the fan I want this guy on my team
Better not turn out like Tsukasa tho
Thank for video donny
Thanks for watching my friend 🤙
Nice work and great video! I'm pretty sure they just rubbed it against some coarse rock wall or something instead of making the deluxe custom version made with nice flints :)
You had a few really good throws during the video. Do you suppose the users were fairly close to their targets? Just wondering about penetration and too far a throw not having enough velocity to puncture the animal hide?
I’m going to do a penetration test coming soon. Distance, depth, range, open terrain, wooded, etc. 🤙
I would think a coarse flat or slightly rounded boulder with a notch could be a faster & easier way to rough in the shape of the shaft. This would let you grind the shaft like low grit sand paper to knock down the stubs & bark using minimal energy vs the flake sawing.
Love the tree vice & shaping for sure. Super clean.
The fire hardening does introduce some carbon as well as a small portion of that becoming graphite which will genuinely harden it slightly beyond that of dried wood.
I’m sure different tools were used, however I went with the minimal approach to show that it could be done. Wood hardening…not so much. Wood drying and reducing the moisture, crystallizing the sap…absolutely. Its hard to burn something to create a hardness that is going to be harder the. Wood itself. Dry wood, forced dried by fire…cut when wet. Absolutely!
@DonnyDust wheres the link to buy your book wild wisdom?
Outstanding spear throwing.
Appreciate you watching!
Found you with shorts but im so glad i got to catch one of your long form videos 😊
Ps watching you throw do you think there was much difference between throwing exactly at the balance point or thightly fore or aft of it "inch or less"?
Thanks for following along. In all honesty…now that my spear has had about a week to dry, my balance point has slightly shifted forward. My spear has dropped mass from dry time and thus changed my throwing point.
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks very interesting 🤔 hope to see more 👍 thanks for the update after the drying time too. My main curiosity was because I've never tried throwing anything that wasn't a ball so I didn't really know how to grasp it. Obviously close to the balance point but the point at the pinky finger the index finger or the middle finger kind of thought. No need to reply I'm definitely going to keep watching as long as youtube let's me know you posted.
Hey Donny, I've been following you for a while and love the videos. This might be asked before, but I'd like to know, what kind of shoes do you wear or what do you recommend to wear when you hike a lot?
I’m a pretty simple guy. Sandals most the time when it’s warm, my old military boots when cold, moccasins when it cool/warm…but a tennis/hiking shoe with a big toe box if I am hiking. Brands…nothing particular.
Gotta remember too, Neanderthals were more robust physically than us, they would've had more strength to throw a spear like that a lot farther and with more force.
Maybe, longer arms = higher speed. Maybe Neanderthal were short but had long arms? I dont know. I assume a javelin might have been used at close range in an ambush type situation with beaters/drivers causing the animals to run towards the ambush. Javelins travel pretty slowly so hitting an animal at long range would require the animal to be totally unaware until impact.
Cool build. Some Neanderthals did use spears with stone tips as well though
Later yes, not these however.
The process of making pitch to fasten these I believe is quote involved
Nice demo, thanks. But that point doesn't look like it will penetrate hide. How sharp a point can you make 'hardened wood' before it becomes too fragile?
It will. It’s going to be reshaped and after 30 some throws it dulled out
Well done sir 👍🏻. 🐾🙏🏻✌🏻🤙🏻
@@scottmcfarland2149 thanks. 🤙🤙
Excellent. Honorary PhD. work.
Thank you kindly. Somebody’s got to do it!!!
I use to make stuff like that all the time has a kid. Age 67.
I think sometime in winter I requested this video. Thank you! I had a hard time finding exact specifications for Schöningen spears so this video helps a lot. Although the spears are great, in your honest opinion does spruce suck as a spear wood?
@@Toxicpoolofreekingmascul-lj4yd oh ok👍yeah, i was just wondering because i made one of pine and it was just too soft and overall just wasn't great. I mean it definetly worked, but wasn't great. I will definetly try spruce👍
Fascinating video. How sure are we that these were Neanderthal spears? I thought their shoulder anatomy was not so suitable for throwing. If archeologists say "modern humans weren't around then", I must counter that there are plenty of surprise discoveries that change timelines a little.
Seeing you throw this thing really makes me realise the benefit of a bow and arrow is not just whatever tactical advantage it has, but that old men can shoot a bow. To get the most out of a javelin is a young mans game. That could have huge implications for the wider social pecking order in a tribe, how much wisdom gets to incubate for longer, how many capable hunters they can have in their ranks vs how many mouths to feed.
The Australian Aboriginals had much thinner, lighter, wood-pointed spears, and used woomera spear thrower - I wonder how this technology fits in with the heavier javelin, what different animals they might be good for. The light spear and woomera combination seems to sit inbetween the javelin and the bow and arrow.
Looking at you use the stone tools to make that spear, I can't help but think there must be/have been easier ways. You grind the spear on a larger rock, but I wonder if particular large rocks could be found that have wedges in them, V shaped or whatever, that you can drag the spear through to deburr all those branches off quicker. I also wonder if you could use fire a bit more, put the whole spear in a fire with the bark still on, control how much the fire takes hold. It might be able to burn away the twigs, parts of the bark.
Wow nice work❤👌
Pozdrowionka z Polski 👍🔥
Just an odd question. As a qualifier, I’ve read a lot about this spear as both a throwing spear and a thrusting spear and all loads of commentary in between. Hypothetically, as a thrower and a simple spear one might make in a survival sort of scenario, would bladelets/microliths work to make it in anyway more effective or would that require a change to the overall spear? I hope that makes sense.
A mix of Neanderthal and later h.sapiens tech as it were.
Makes total sense. I think small microliths on a spear are very practical and can really cut into a hose. I like to think with the change of game, climate and geography…early hominids changed their approach with different variables…adding bone or stone cutting elements as needed. The Schoningen spears are only ten finds…these could have belonged to a small clan that hunted light skinned animals where hardened wood worked. Another clan in colder climates could need stone bladders to cut through thick hides and fur. I think the environment was a factor.
Valid points. @@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks
@@ingwiafraujaz3126 No pun intended :)
Excellent work. Looks like its not your first time throwing a javelin :) Did you end up weighing it? I just read up that 2 replicas were made, one weighed 760g and the other 800g. I find that amazing because 800g is the weight men use at the Olympics.
I did throw javelin in HS so I thought I have a better chance of replicating the throws trajectory accurately. Weight will change. I cut the wood fresh and after time it started to dry out. During my throws it had some mass, now I would say it’s fully dried out and its mass would be appropriate to weigh.
@@DonnyDustsPaleoTracks that makes sense.
Nice video.
What kind of wood did you use? To me it looks quite heavy for a pine tree. The originals were made of very light and not very hard wood (due to availability i propose).
Wouldn't it be easier to plain the branches, before you remove the bough? I habe no experience with flint tools, but that is what I would have done.
Donny, have you ever heard of the antler-point spears from the early european Aurignacium? It seems that for a very short timeframe (I think only around 5000 years), straight, long trees for spear shafts were so scarce, that people did not notch the front of the shaft to insert a stone point and risk the rare shaft splitting open the entire way. Usually, as you well know, it's the spearhead that takes great effort and is most at risk of breaking. Well, since the wood was so rare, they used reindeer antlers as spear heads that were notched, accepting a spearshaft that looked much like your example here. An engineer would call this a "female" shaft adapter, rather than a "male" adapter. The point might split on impact, but reindeer was abundand, wood was not, so you could always replace the basically sacrificial spearpoint. I was wondering if you've heard of this and have any plans of demonstrating this fascinating and shortlived spear type to a more general audience
What type of wood are you using?
Why dose it have to be a spruce tree? Or will other kinds of trees work ?
Spruce is what the original spears were made of...so I went with that.Appreciate you watching!
With even a small stone point that would be an effective boar spear. The only thing that surprised me was you didn't use the antler to polish the front third, while not able to be determined in the archeological evidence, polishing would certainly be a good move to aid in strength and, potentially, in penetration. Even if it only goes a 16th of an inch deeper because of polishing, that could be the difference between clipping an artery and getting a meal or sitting by that campfire with a growling belly.
Been making these since I was a kid to kill wild chickens for food. I didn’t realize the design was used so long ago.
@@anthonyjohnson100 you might just have the Neanderthal in you mate. AMAZING.iam being quite serious..
Large spears for short range large animals, also stabbing, power in numbers like he mentions, and then thinner lighter ones for distance or small animals. But generally I think lighter shafts would do the trick for throwing. Probably every possible variation and different wood types were used maybe making specialized artilleries
I live in the finger lakes region of
NYS in between Buffalo and Rochester...I keep finding a wide variety of large spearheads and finely ground damn near paper thin knives and scrapers made from limestone... I've looked at museum collections and the back room research collections.. some of the heads are the size of my hand,I find zero cultural attribution to these
anywhere, when I do see similar sometimes virtually the same tool, they are all from Europe and Africa and are a million years old.. The famous anthropologist Louis Leaky visited a site by the lakes in the 50 and said that aside from the lithic differences, that the stuff was so similar to neanderthal and older..we have sites older than 13000 years close by.. the certified genuine neanderthal tools I have,I have the same thing in a local stone, but no one
has an interest because they are just limestone or don't fit in the timeline...gets frustrating
Is the tip of your spear enough to hunt an animal? Or did they make it sharper back then?
@@Tiagabby4 great question. I have no doubt tips were reworked again and again. My started sharp enough to hunt, but after about 30 throws it dulled out. In my opinion if a hunter missed, spear took some tip damage or wear it was likely reworked!!!!
thx awesome!!
Glad you like it!
Me an my younger brother made these when we were 8 or 10 yrs old, now mid 60's, never knew they had a name. But we grew up in the swamps of Fla an used local hardwoods, an they were effective. Fire hardened the tips also, but what do kids know, we were copying zulu spears as thats all we knew about then. Now I would flint spearheads out of something if I had to. Thx for the vid tho.
So very cool. Thanks so much for sharing. Appreciate it greatly!
I've read where the section that is closest to the core of the tree is the densest part because it is the oldest. And you generated all that kindling and fire starter knocking off the stubs and bark.
The heart wood at the base of the tree is the hardest. It was something that Neanderthals understood and built specifically to create a denser point.
Of course Neanderthal's would have made better ones as they used them and would have iterated this hundreds if not thousands of times, but this was a good demonstration of the process.