650 vs 434 grain 40 Yard Trajectory Test
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ต.ค. 2024
- 650 vs 434 grains, zeroed at 40 BUT shoot 45 as if you misjudged the yardage. The results surprised me.
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Troy, like all your tests, this one is straightforward and real-world. Please know that at least one bowhunter is deeply grateful for both your revealing results AND for your practical approach. Best, Chris (in Maine)
Thank you
@@RanchFairysincerely man, thanks for all the content, time, and everything else it takes to put all of it together brotha 🤙
This is the right way to test trajectory. Everyone should test for themselves, for their setup. Thanks RF.
100%
This is probably my favorite test to determine real-world comfort level with a given trajectory. When I've done this testing, I saw silimar results, that the penalty spread increases as the weight goes up and speed goes down, and then it's up to the user to see what theyre comfortable with.
That is correct. But downrange energy retention is 15-25 percent better with the heavier projectile. This is why tank killing projectiles are heavy.
Remember if max speed fixed everything then tank projectiles would be 100 grains going Mach 20!! If they were bowhunters
The penalty for misjudging range also increases at longer ranges. I really like the way that Troy asked the question. Asking the right questions is the most critical part of good experimental design. One way I would have improved the design is to decide on a specific number as a threshold for what level of inaccuracy is acceptable *before* conducting the test.
@@RanchFairy Actually, the very best tank killing munitions are called shaped charges that detonate several feet before hitting the armor to accelerate a tiny stream of molten metal to extremely high speeds (about Mach 15). Heavy slow projectiles can be effective at penetrating older types of armor, but there are several types of modern armor that can only be reliably penetrated with lighter faster projectiles that you get from shaped charges. Even among ordinary kinetic projectiles fired from the main gun of a tank, anti-tank armor penetrating sabot rounds are the lightest and fastest of any kind of round that a tank would use. (Fortunately, deer don't have armor)
@@ThirdLawPair
Ya need to look up the mass on the tank killers. There are lighter metals
Yes - animals have armor. Shaped bones protecting the vitals. We just don’t talk about that - in that context.
@@RanchFairy Three common projectiles for the Abrams tank in descending order of armor penetrating ability
1) The stream of molten metal from the M380 HEAT round: ~1kg, 5100 m/s (Mach 15.1) Capable of penetrating advanced ablative tank armor
2) M829A3 Armor-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS): 4.88kg, 1575 m/s (Mach 4.6) Capable of penetrating heavy tank armor
3) M908 Obstacle Reduction (HE-OR): 11.4kg, 1400 m/s (Mach 4.1) Capable of penetrating concrete and light tank armor
[exact numbers may vary somewhat depending on the source]
The thing with penetrating metal armor is that, unlike Rockwell Hardness, the toughness rating of the metal is not a fixed parameter, but it varies depending on the speed at which it is impacted. At higher speeds, the metal is more brittle and less ductile. Especially important is the speed of the projectile relative to the speed of sound in the material. The speed of sound in steel is about Mach 15, so the impact force a projectile *above* that speed cannot spread out sideways through the armor, leading to highly brittle effects. With impacts in bone, the main effect is the bone flexing inward rather than the impact force spreading out sideways. So, you don't get the same quite the same benefit from a faster arrow the way you get better armor piercing results with a faster projectile. The mechanism by which a blunt projectile defeats metal tank armor is just not the same physical mechanism by which a sharp arrow cuts through animal hide and bone. Heavy arrows are good for cutting through hide and bone, fast projectiles are good for breaking through metal tank armor.
My prediction: No matter how many times you repeat the explanation of what you are doing, there will be comments from dudes, who got it all wrong.
Another great class held by professor Troy.
Ok, I can appreciate the drop comparison, try this too:
Zero at 40(or max hunting distance) then walk up to halfway, in this case 20. Shoot at 20 with your 40 pin and this in theory is your arrows actual trajectory, now apply that trajectory to the woods with all kinds of crap in the way.
I’m shooting 500gr 29/71# moving 275fps, so considerably faster than what you tend to shoot. While the drop for heavier arrows isn’t a huge difference, the CLIMB on those heavier arrows is what really changes. If I zero at 40 and walk up to 20, it’s about a 15” total climb at the halfway point. I take that info into my woods knowing I have about a 15” window I can effectively shoot through without worrying about hitting limbs and such. Just food for thought.
This is absurd - anyone can make a completely unreasonable suggestion and you might be the current winner!!
You’d have multiple pins
No way you’re making a 20 YARD error even if you’re guessing.
90% of people have rangefinders
Come on man.
I have a suggestion - crank up a you tube channel! Prove your point!
And by the way, there’s also stuff you need to shoot over in the woods (go up in a tree and tell me 100% of the stuff is ABOVE the arrow!!
I’ll wait for your response!!
Unless you’re mowing the whole area you hunt - then you got me and I am a liar
@@RanchFairy I’m not saying you’re making a 20yd error dude, I’m telling you a way to see how HIGH your actual cast is on your arrow, you can know that you hit 3” low all day at 45yds and that’s fine, aim high. However, if you have 18-20” of climb at 22.5yds and there’s a tree limb in that area, you’re screwed. That’s all I’m saying Mr. Pissy pants. Knowing your FULL trajectory is just as important as knowing you hit 3” low with a 5yd variance, if not more important. What if you’re 5yds UNDER and the deer is at 35 now you’ve got a vastly different set of circumstances involving your trajectory. All I’m saying is to check your full trajectory my guy.
@@RanchFairyyeah you missed understood. Very understandable with all the critics giving you crap. I saw a guy do the test he is talking about but with a different method. The test was shooting from 60 yards with paper at 30 and it was to judge how high the different weight of arrows are at the halfway point. Just tells how small of a widow you could shoot through with a flatter shooting arrow.
@@chrisunruh6485 exactly this. I’ve done paper too, but I noticed he has a block 4x4 so he can get away with the way I described it.
I agree. And it paid off a few years ago when I needed a followup shot at 35 yds through a 12” triangle hole 15 yds away. I knew the arrow would arc at that distance at about 260fps. I guessed about 8 inches arc and threaded the needle. But I like your test of shooting 40 yd pin at 20yds to know what the max arc is.
This shows another reason why I shoot heavier arrows. The difference in arrow drop in a misjudged distance isn't big enough to give up the energy of the heavy arrow in the shorter distances I now shoot. Great video for most shooters/hunters but I bet some would like to see the difference at some longer distances.
40 is enough. Let someone else lie about it on another video with untuned arrows and using a pin that's zeroed for their standard platform.
If that happens, I will do another test, can't have people misleading the world just so get some clicks.
@@RanchFairy Have you done tests on actual carcasses of deer or other game to test penetration differences of broadheads and different weights of arrows? I know testing is done with ballistic gel but I don't think that's a great comparison to the real thing. My theory is that most set ups will penetrate plenty unless hitting bone and at "reasonable" distances. I now shoot 50lbs. because of health issues but fortunately have a 30.5" draw length and shoot a 525 grain arrow. I'm just curious as to how much "wasted" energy there can be unless hitting bone. I've always shot heavier arrows for the advantages of quieter bow, easier on equipment, and increase in energy. I'm thinking at longer ranges the difference could become an issue with larger animals especially, like elk, for penetration if not hitting bone. Thanks.
You must be new. That's what this channel is about.
The best shots to take run the risk of hitting heavy bone, and ribs count, too, even if they arent "heavy".
@@RonnieStafne-km1hk
Welcome to my channel. I have live hunting shots with multiple broadhead platforms. Including a 26” draw 40# bow and 700 grain arrows a couple times. Heavy arrow kills (multiple) 1,035 grains
MULTIPLE necropsies showing internal organ damage and multiple broadhead platforms. There’s a bunch of that here.
Also - why ballistic get is terrible.
Why foam “testing” is a lie. And I even shot a dumpster to prove “the target defines the test”!!
Holler anytime troy@ranchfairy.com
Thanks for the information. I need to try this with my equipment. I did notice that your bow was much quieter with the heavier arrows. Keep on preaching.
Thank you so much for you commitment to knowledge in bowhunting and everything connected to it.
Good job Troy and thanks for sharing.
I run a 514 grain arrow for hunting and a 359 grain arrow for field and anything past 120 yards. Mathews Traverse, 30" 70#. I have a full data sheet on both arrows. Troy is right, it's really not all that different. The only real downfall is sight clearance (unless you're shooting competitive, where 1/8 inch really does matter). Between 95 and 100 yards, my 318 grain arrow drops 19.5", and my 514 grain arrow drops 24.5". So 5" difference of drop over 5 yards at 100 yards. And when you know your equipment, it isn't bad at all. I took a 75 yard shot at a Mule Deer last year with that 514 grain build. Pin set for 74. Deer at 75. Held an inch behind the knuckle, and his drop put the entrance right where I held, exited just behind the last rib, and blew apart his off-side hind leg.
1.25 inches of drop at 25 yards makes a difference though
@dougkeiser9406 If I'm aiming for a 4" circle at 30 yards, I have +/-3.2 yard forgiveness and I'll still catch that circle. (and I know I'm capable of doing that consistently under pressure, as a rinehart 10 ring is approx. 4"-5".) I had no problem smoking my mule deer at 75 yards last year with a pin set at 74. Just know your bow. I aimed an inch behind the knuckle. Assume it drops, I hit where I aim (which is exactly what happened), it doesn't move, I go clean through the heart.
I just don't see it.
Grizzly Stick has a very good video on the same subject. Shot out of a hooter shooter from 40. Excellent video.
I’m a light arrow guy normally, but this is a really interesting test, and your testing method seems solid. I would’ve predicted the same as you did initially, I would’ve expected a much bigger difference than an inch or so. Cool test man!
I was quite shocked. I expected 3-5". But then I went and re-read about trajectory curves and downrange speed erosion ( I did a whole series on that) then "ah ha" it makes sense.
Aerodynamic drag does not impact the heavier projectile (also moving slower) at the same rate as a much faster projectile.
In the drag equation velocity is SQUARED (this is not a good thing). Not doubled, squared. So for every FPS faster you go by lowering arrow mass, the drag eats the projectile speed increase times that velocity INCREASE, negatively - squared.
Fast arrow
Mass down
Velocity up
Squared increase in drag, in the air and lower mass
Heavy arrow
Mass up
Velocity down
Squared drag is lowered because its moving slower and doesn't impact it as much because its heavier.
To clarify, the mass is not squared.
Only velocity.
So the mass increase does not have near the impact as velocity.
A lot of work went into this video and I thank you. Real world. 1.33 inces is not much. A 5 pound increase or decrease in my bow weight or 1 inch draw length difference in our equipment will either increase or decrease the drop of my arrow. This cannot be used as reliable info for me or any other archer. This video is for your equipment and cannot be used as an example for another person's bow. Thank you for your videos
Keep it going. Love the videos
Love it! keep at it Troy!
Apollo 300/525 gr vs 300/625 drop is insignificant, 1/2" at 20 yds. At 30 yds the 625 dropped 2.25". 4 fletch TAC 2.75" with wrap. Center shot perfect. Amazing how well the Apollos work with 100 grain difference. Gotta love that.
Love your videos I shoot a 735gr arrow for whitetail and I don't shoot over 35yds still managed to get 6 deer last year and with that set up I don't care about hugging the shoulder thanks for the advice on tuning arrows and single bevals
That's a low end cape buff arrow. What a hammer
the haters will still hate cause they have to be right no matter what. I now use 550 grains down from 650 south east deer hunting and I have had zero issues. at 550 I still get 110 yards out of my bow I do shoot 81 pounds at 29 inches but even at 73 pounds I was getting over 90 yards easy. the easy thing is range your target if you cant get a good range dont take the shot no matter what grain arrow you shoot if your bow is set up to your arrow there should be no issues. as we see all arrows drop some if the yardage is wrong...
Well done, now we will see a flurry of test trying to disprove this. Most of the haters will not post their results because it will show what your test did.
I mean, it won't take much. The test method was solid and he's right that the guys not sighted it at a range isn't a fair test. However, the test is based around Troy's shooting ability being perfect or even relatively accurate. Which it wasn't and I don't think he'd say it was. His group size at 40 yds didn't give anyone much confidence... If he did more shots we could have more confidence. Someone could easily do test this and come up with something different - likely more accurate.
The conclusion is what I don't concur with. 1.33" inches is long way on an animal and could be the difference between a lethal shot and not. 1.33" is bigger than a Magnus Black Hornet broadhead high or low.
I'm a light arrow shooter, 430ish simply because i like the flat trajectory for elk hunting and stalking whitetail. But one of the biggest things I've discovered since playing around with heavier arrows is that a heavier carries its speed better over long distances than a light arrow. Basically a lighter arrow looses speed faster than a heavy arrow.
I’ve been hunting elk with arrows over 550 for 6 years now. 650 for the past 3 years. I have 4 elk and my dad has 1. (He is 76, give him a break. 😁) No misses. I have seen a couple of elk run away with light arrows sticking in them and they were never found. You should do what works for you but thought you might be interested to hear from someone with elk and heavier arrow experience.
I live in MT. I’ve killed a shit pile of elk with a 450 grain arrow and 2 blade coc broadhead. That being said, I never had a pass through until I got over 500 grains. 🤷♀️
I like this test, I appreciate this test, BUT do you think you had too many "bad shots" to count your results? I would have liked to see a GROUP and measure the drop of the group. At least reshoot the 650's. The 434's seemed to be consistent.
This may be a dumb thought but I was wondering if the percent of FOC affected trajectory at. In an attempt to make everything as equal as possible shouldn't the 400 grain arrow had the same percent of FOC as the 600 grain arrow. I think it'd be interesting to see if an arrow of same total weight but vastly different FOC flew the same.
With a stagnant target "the shots" everyone would consider them bad shots but even when i first started bow hunting in 2010 in western massachusetts where seeing anything is tough and that shot you get has to to count and after shooting over acouple deer . Ive adopted low vital v shots and ive had extremely good results . That why when i firat started watching these videos you have peaked my interest. Keep doing them they are great
First time I’ve seen the test done properly by zeroing for each weight.
Thank Troy for doing the test. My only comment is on this test. What was the time of the shot for each of these arrows? 1.3 inches is not that much of a difference, but how much of a time difference is there? Deer, don't just drop down, as you've said in the past . Just a thought? Thanks again from a big fan.
Very good video!! Yeah this test compared oranges to oranges not apples to oranges.Thanks for clarifying trajectory.It really doesn't matter so much when you zero the heavier arrow at a certain range rather than shooting a heavier arrow zeroed at the lighter arrow's range.Makes so much sense this way
More to come on the trajectory CURVES!!
If you have a fat right handed kid hit a slow roller to you at shortstop, you'll lope it over there.
If you have a fast lead off leftie, you're going to send it faster....on a flatter trajectory curve.
Both batters are out.
@@RanchFairy Now you have insulted me saying I was out, even though I could outrun everybody in my class, and you didn't even see the play!!! Geeesh!
Hey Troy I just picked up you RF test kit 350/300, I cant wait to get this bow and arrows dialed in. I have started shooting through paper and have made some great progress. Love all your videos, keep up the great work. Love from Canada 👍
Troy@ranchfairy.com
If ya have questions
I did this very test, with my top pin ( main pin for taking deer ). Q:Ever question why we sight in for 20? A: It's just an arbitrary number that looks good on a range. So, if I sight in for something like 25yds, it works for 17yds too, and maybe 20yds is 1" high. Where I hunt, in my typical setups, the majority of the time I only need that top pin -> keep it simple folks. ;-)
I used to zero for 17 flat ground
Then hunted elevated - it was 20
Thanks RF very informative!!!
Are we still arguing about making a choice, tuning your bow accordingly, and learning your effective range? I shoot a 635 grain arrow because I want to, and it works really well for me. Cool video!
I was actually thinking about this the other day. Just a few years ago i was shooting 340 spine twizzlers. Ended up buying the test kit and landed on a 300 spine arrow, 100 grain insert and 200 grain tuffheads. 596 grains total. So i was wondering how much different the "error" would be if i mis-judged yardage by a few yards with heavier arrow. So i appreciate the time and approach you took for this test.
If heavier arrows "just fall out of the sky" as some like to say, the English would have been shooting a much different arrow at Agicourt.
Archery artillery? The same bow-arrow combination has been shown to blow through plate armor at much closer distances.
Thanks for giving the physics lesson Troy.
When your life is on the line, you make better choices.
I would be really interested to see if the variance would grow or shrink at 80 considering kinetic energy. I think it may be surprising as well. Keep up the good work.
The variance grows with range
So this is where the impact energy needs to be considered for hunting. I have a whole series on downrange energy at 60 with a lab radar.
"Long range arrow performance" playlist.
For instance
A 436 grain arrow Momentum at launch was .52 slug
At the bow - literally like every chronograph test in the shops.
It is LOWER than the IMPACT Momentum of a 589 grain arrow at 60 yards - 589 hits the target at 60 yards = .56 slug. That one surprised me.
To be very clear. The 580 grain arrow has more impact momentum at 60 yards than a 430 grain arrow at the bow. Remember, that means the 430 grain arrow is reducing its impact Momentum as it goes down the shotline. Just to let ya know, the 430 grain arrow at 60 yards hit at .46 slug. Approximately 21% lower than 589 at 60. That's a lot if you're hunting elk and mule deer etc.
So at 80, you still have to manage a bunch of drop for either arrow? (I am assuming a hunting arrow, 3-D who cares - shoot 200 grain arrows - thats fine)
Started with THP watching you. Wasnt getting the pass thru i wanted. Switched to 656 grain arrow 3 years ago. Several deer later and i ALWAYS get pass thru with blood trails stevie wonder could follow. So, yeah, thanks
Great video! Stand your ground don’t let the “BIG GUYS” beat ya down! They’re just mad they’re loosing money to a FAIRY 😂🎉
Additionally I don’t think 1 man has ever had a bigger impact on the archery world ever. (I know Ashby and all that. But you are the presenter of this to our community and the “BIG GUYS” hate it 😂😂😂😂🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Even just the difference between the 40 yard zero of the two arrows on your sight tape is pretty crazy to see.
They fly on different trajectory curves
It’s real simple. If you zero 5 pins across 50 yards for 650 grains - the pins are more open but still 10 yards apart.
@@RanchFairy yeah I totally get the reasoning behind it. I never would have expected them to be the same. Just never seen the difference in the same sight before. Pretty cool to see.
Re-run the test with a crossbow with a 3x9 scope and a shooting bench.
Something that I've noticed that not many people talk about is that most drop charts for archery are quoted with the arrow beginning level any trajectory involved; such as sighted in @ 20 yards and shooting to 40 or 45 yards.
To make things even worse, most XB scopes have speed compensator built in.
With these 2 factors most people never do much testing of their own .
"and without any trajectory involved "
@@rudygeorgiamulesandcountry1594 I just got a crossbow. We shall see
I did that last year. I had a 2.5” difference at 40 yards with my 2018 Bear Approach 70lb 29.5” draw. Just picked up an Elite Ethos (looks like you are shooting the same) and I don’t there is much difference at all with the speed of that bow.
Yeah, I've done that test too and came up with more than 1.33".
you do believe it is still a free country huh?!? for now!
good content, thanks for the test!!
Personally, I would have zeroed the lighter as a group, on one target and then dropped back the 5 yards and grouped again. Then do the same thing on the heavier ones. Once done, measure the center on the groups, excluding the fliers. But then, I’m not a pro, either.
More food for thought - here's another way to look at this test to give it better perspective. The 650 grain arrow dropped 57% more than the 434. we can minimize the range error by saying it's only 1.33" inches but perspective matters. I also still believe is 1.33" absolutely could be the difference between making a lethal shot or not.
Try, following your theory, I calculated the time a heavy arrow arrives at a 40 yard target versus a light one. The difference was 100ths of a second. A negligible time when concerning yourself with dear DROP. But a huge advantage in punch power with the heavier arrow. You are right.
@@joeceb2444
The thing we cannot calculate is how much they will move
And of course!!! No one ever misses!! Or hits a little high!! That’s a big assumption. The shots are ALWAYS on the point of aim!!
@@RanchFairy Thanks for giving me more credit than I deserve.
Troy you have to throw this out, Mercury is in gatorade and the 3 fletch vs 4 fletch has my whiskers twitching
The hypotenuse is wrapped around the axis.
is your spot accuracy perfect at 40yds.
“Draggier” 😂 I love it
Interesting...id like to see the difference at longer ranges. Seeing the difference in the apex of the trajectory in the different arrows would be cool also.
read above post there is your answer
I had to take a picture with my phone , blow up the picture to read my sight tape. Eyes go in mid 40's .
I don't think the drop matters. I'd like to see how high the arrows are casting. I watched my buddy miss several deer because his arrows were to heavy for the thick coastal woods.
th-cam.com/video/Z8jAt0R1uyo/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
This is something I very much consider too! The arc on my light vs heavy is very different. My light TAC Arrows I usually just send down range, but when there is brush with my heavies I often kneel if I have overhead stuff. It does allow me to hit things behind foreground brush though, sails over it.
@@sunchips11 unfortunately I don't think he would ever make a video on that it would hurt his marketing 😂 troys stuff makes sense but he started a heavy arrow cult , my poor buddy is shooting 690+grain arrows with 27inch draw and can't hit anything in the woods 😆
It does help that I have a 32" draw. 🤣
This helps support the argument of "Vital V, Heavy, Single Bevel" VS "Behind the Crease & Large Expandable".
The answer to this question is comparing who looses more animals when they "miss".
I don’t know about anyone else but, I’ve lost 100% of the animals I missed.
Oh wait… you mean “miss” the exact aiming point? 😂 I realized that as I was typing.
@@chrisunruh6485 Yes, the spot you are aiming for. Obviously if you hit your bullseye it should/will result in a dead animal. But when we are discussing/arguing which set up is best, I think what I mentioned above would be the way to decide what worked best.
I shoot straight up the leg, Vital V with 2” expandable at 440 gr total weight. I shoot 8 to 12 does per year with 95% recovery over last 10 years. 100% recovery last few years as I fine tuned my shooting knowledge. A miss a few inches off is fine unless you are 20’ high on a 7 yd shot. No margin for error up or down on that shot.
What makes u think that a lighter arrow requires a better shooting form, please?
just goes to show how important ranging is at long ranges! I switched to an Oracle X on my mission Sub-1 and have new levels of confidence with heavy (or any weight) arrows at longer ranges. Have you done any real world time to target tests at long range? I know the paper math shows a insignificant difference in the amount of time between flappers and 650+.
40 yards is long range? lol.
@@progradepainting3755 yeah past 40 is when you're shooting at animals that duck and run around and shit
@@SirSloop1919 a lot of guys out west here have their first pin set at 40, because it’s a miracle if you can even get that close lol. At 40 yards, I’m drilling a hole the size of a baseball out all day long. So no, this is horrible reasoning. At 20-30 yards, the deer can hear you, smell you, see every little movement you make as you draw. You guys are living in another dimension. We’re talking about a modern compound bow. There are guys with primitive self bows and cane arrows, shooting well under 200 fps who can outshoot the ranch fairy at 40 yards, I mean completely out shoot him. And this guy is using an awesome compound bow. This is just ridiculous at this point.
@@progradepainting3755 cool yeah here on the east coast I’m almost always inside 40, but have gone out to 52 before. Just too much risk in taking a long shot here when you can usually just and get a 20yd chip shot.
I think you were accurate when you said top “critic”. Could’ve left it at that 🤪
Troy, are you still hunting with the ez v sight?
@@PaulMooneyOutdoors yes - never looked back
Good stuff!!!!!
This is super interesting and surprising. Wonder what the difference in trajectory is at 40 yards, just the vertical difference in the two arrow platforms is
I was surprised. Thought it would be 4-6”
Never let the pin go below the target prior to shooting. You are lifting the pin to the target. I can’t remember the cause of this I’m thinking the draw length is too long, which causes shoulder arm alignment issues. I’m sure JD could give you/ us lessons😂 Lc archery, thing a week #8
Where the heck are you located? Anywhere near Liberty Hill?
If im not mistaken the 434 grain arrows u shot are standard diameter and the apollos are .204 so with ur bow rest set the same the standard diameter will hit higher naturally from the tip being highe. Would like to see same diameter arrows shot with different weights seems like itd be more apples to apples
it was zeroed
@flyfin108 yes the pin was zeroed at 40 but when it's flying tip high I wonder if it could effect the gap for that arrow between all its yardage increments vs one with perfect arrow flight. I could be wrong with my thinking on it.
The main difference between a good designer and a novice designer is that the novice does not anticipate revision in their design. The difference between a good designer and an expert designer is that the good designer goes by pure trial and error, whereas the expert uses a *predictive framework* based on physical laws as a basis for their testing and revision process.
All sorts of people say all sorts of weird stuff without doing any testing themselves. The proof is always there in the testing
Isn’t it actually a 1.27” difference not 1.33”?
I want to see a video about impact angle, because would a heavy arrow coming in at a high angle from needing to aim higher in pact penetration
Man! You made that complicated as hell!
Simple things aren't always the answer.
Lol, that's how I sight my pins in when setting my bow up.
Great work
Thank u
My 370gr rip XV w/qad exodus was a total pass thru @35yds and stuck 15" into the hard dirt. Buck was 200# field dressed and split ribs on both sides. I can shoot my 20pin at 40 and have less drop than the 650gr at 5 yds. If I didn't have a 5 pin slider I would have my first pin set for 30yds. With this bow I can shoot my 370, 390, 420, 445, and 468gr arrows to 40yds with really no difference in the impact point. Shooting between 40-60yds is where I notice a difference. What happens at 7-15yds?, because depending on the lighting conditions and terrain I have easily misjudged distance's by more than 10yds shooting 3d courses. Personal preference, skill, and intended game I would consider when choosing an arrow weight but my focus is whitetail. I prefer my 5 pins to fill 1/3rd of my 2" scope housing and it could be because I'm a bad judge of yardage and I want forgiveness in yardage. I know the rip XV arrows are not very durable so I make sure I'm not going to hit a shoulder and I use fixed blades with this arrow.
You need to hurry up and schedule your shooting lessons with Dudley. Your accuracy at longer ranges will improve, guaranteed 100%. His video lessons helped me. 👍
Did you get sponsorship from magnus?
Curious to know if prior to this test the bow was well tuned to shoot both arrows through paper and both leaving bullet holes
Just posted on my instagram bullet hole performance. So to be fair, if there was an arrow that might not have been perfectly tuned, it was the lighter one. Because I don't run any arrows without 100 grain inserts.
Physics showed up and the lighter arrow hit a little higher.
I appreciate your comment, there aren't a lot of people who recognized that as you mess around with the arrows, they are different, and arrow tune matters.
Many you tube channels do similar videos, they have their bows tuned for light arrows and just add a ton of mass to a low spine arrow and disregard arrow flight.
Please don’t get me wrong as I liked what you did here. Another thing to consider is human error. Like one person said in his comment, it will be nice to send a few lighter arrows first, say three or four to see how they group and then do the same with the heavier arrows and then compare POI. I’m sure the heavier ones will hit lower.
@@mansalaija
we repeated the test with two other shooters. That's upcoming in a video.
Spoiler alert!!!
So the thing that the industry folks and some of the you tubers who try this DO NOT understand is the flight path of both projectiles.
Put on their respective flight path, you just don't see the huge issue you would see if you used the lighter arrows pin gaps.
That is 100% of the tests you see.
If I used my heavy arrow pins. The light arrow would miss HIGH and that's not better.
Man I love these conversations, new ideas. I am going to do exactly that. Put the light arrow on the heavy arrow (the incorrect flight path) pin setting and test that!
Another video upcoming is the amazing difference in on target momentum between the 650 and the 430 grain arrow - I went ahead and ran that one out to 60 yards and was amazed.
We are good man. The "human element" is a thing I accept. I also accept that out of 100 folks about 99 will make some small error when hunting. Target shooting is just practice.
So we also need to consider.
Structural integrity
Perfect arrow flight
Mass
Sharpened to hair popping perfection
Low resistance, high penetration, broadhead platform.
These things help the humans when the nerves are a bit frazzled at 22 yards, in 12 degrees and the big one rolls up.
@@RanchFairy thank you for taking the time to reply in such detailed manner. I totally agree with you here.
Just like you, I also believe that a well tuned arrow with the perfect spine coming out of the bow really straight and having a really sharp cut on contact broadhead makes a huge difference, specially if the arrow mass is somewhat heavy regardless of the type of big game your after, up to a point obviously.
I read an article a while back of a person that runs a sight (HHA Tetra Max) that allows him to swap yardage wheels without having to re-sight his bow so he can take heavy and light arrows in his quiver and use them as needed.
I am the type of person that likes things in the middle of the spectrum, in this case not too heavy and not too light.
I am looking forward to see the new videos. Thanks
60 feet/300fps = .2 seconds (fast bow)
60 feet/1,125fps = .05 seconds (time for sound to reach the deer at 20 yards)
Deer’s reaction time on average time = .1 seconds
The time to beat sound at 20 yards is .15 seconds, which would require a bow to shoot 400 fps.
So, you can’t beat a deer’s reaction time with a compound bow at more than approximately 15 yards at 300 fps (45/300)=.15 seconds. Drops to 13 yards at 250 fps.
You need to limit the delta between the arrow’s travel time vs the speed of sound. Deer can drop about 1 inch for every 1/100th of a second.
So, at 20 yards a deer’s maximum approximate drop or spin potential with a 300fps arrow is effectively 5 inches (.2-.15=.05 seconds).
Same 20 yard shot at 250fps results in drop or spin potential of 9 inches (.24-15=.09 seconds).
When you see a deer not react to the arrow at less than 13-15 yards, it’s not that they didn’t hear the shot, it’s just algebra. You beat the deer’s reaction time, is not that they didn’t hear the bow because you are shooting a heavy arrow and reduced the decibels by a point or two.
These numbers only get worse at farther distances. I personally am not willing to give up 4 inches of additional potential movement on a 20 yard shot for the sake of kinetic energy far exceeding what is required to kill a whitetail.
Shot placement is the number one factor in ethical kills.
I expected about 4” discrepancy. So I’m actually pleasantly surprised with the results
Might as well go heavy and take advantage of the increased energy and performance 🙂👍🏻👍🏻.
Also, I did not perceive a definitive difference in speed between the two weights
If you can't shoot a 1 inch group then how can you determine drop? Like you could be shooting a 3 inch group. Which means anything under a 6 inch difference could be on you. Do like 30 shots to try and even that out somewhat. Also the distance of your rest to pin is going to have a massive impact on this test.... You have a slide Which changes your launch angle. Which seems "fine" when zeroed specific for one distance. But if you had let's say a 20 yard zero your going to see different results.
Can you do this test with trad bows?
@@tomburrows3608
One of the trad guys can do it
But the results are gonna be quite similar
WHEN the launch conditions match the projectile
Food for thought - Say whitetails vitals are 10" in diameter on a broadside shot then that means you have 5" in vertical forgiveness in shot placement if you aim center. 1.33"/5" = . That's before any human error or animal movement. On a quartering shot that size reduces as well. So I guess it really depends on what you consider "a lot". To me - 1.33" is a mile in a hunting application. . Look at your own vitals once and picture getting shot and ask yourself if 1.33" matters. That very well could be the difference in a recovery or not. Could be the difference in hitting bone or not.
If you're aiming vital v - what's above it and below it that make the v? Bone. t. It's a balance for everyone but for me, I'll reduce the likelihood of hitting the bone in the first place by shooting a little faster & giving the animal less time to react.
Suggestion for next time - Do this test on a full size deer target. It will give better perspective.
Good points, worth noting though that pary of the purpose of the heavy single bevel setups is that they blow through bone, lessening that issue.
@@sunchips11 Correct. What I'm saying is that it's somewhat self defeating. Adding mass to assist in bone breaking, while increasing the likelihood of actually hitting a bone you may have avoided in the first place.
Fair points. I tend to think of them as plan B arrows as RF puts it. I've seen too many videos of hunters accidentally hitting bone or missing lung and the animal running off with a stick hanging out of them, unrecovered. I'm still going for the heart and lungs of course, but if nature intervenes, I have options. Just a different philosophy, I do see you're point though.
@@sunchips11 For sure. My goal in making comments at all is to provide other perspectives. Heavy arrows and smaller cut broadheads do penetrate better given equal animal movement - but they also have tangible downsides. Often not recognized, especially in echo chambers like these can become.
For me, increasing the odds of the "plan b" doesn't make sense. It also doesn't match with hunter reported feedback on lethality. Most animals are lost from shots too far back and from range error, not from bone. That also matches my personal experience. So that's the plan B & C that I plan for while still trying to achieve a pass through.
So would bone be Plan D? And if we can reduce the likelihood of D happening by shooting a little faster (not too fast) then isn't that the most logical?
Excellent points. I absolutely agree with the too far back point. That's why I'm aiming for the heart in the forward lower part of the vital V. The bone won't stop my arrows if the animal moves that in the way, but I'm also not aiming behind the crease. That's why bone is plan B for me and not plan C. Obviously all of this is contingent on actually practicing and making sure I'm accurate.
Would it be correct to assume a 5 yard long misjudge would be the same results in the opposite direction? I was also wondering if the difference between the two arrows would decrease at longer distances? My theory based on the heavier arrow being able to maintain its speed better than the light arrow. I Know you’re kinda on the longer side of your comfortable distance already. No judgement, I don’t shoot past 40 either. My entire life, I’ve only shot 60 yards at a target twice. Maybe one of the hunting public guys can test the longer distances?
Ehhhh they're not the best shots. You need someone who is a truly good shot. I don't think it's a coincidence or a conspiracy that most pro shooters shoot lighter arrows. They actually have the ability to shoot the groups and tell the difference. Most guys have a spray of arrows and then do this test and say this spray of arrows overlapped my other spray of arrows.. good enough!
@@TheArrowBuilder 😂 story checks out! I’ve watched those videos.
Finally somebody did this test correctly!!
Yep. I got tired of people not putting the arrows on their own trajectory curves
Joel Maxfield did this test about 2 years ago and his results are FAR different!! #1 Joel tuned his bow for each arrow then retuned for the next arrow, #2 Joel is a FAR BETTER shot consistently shooting 2-3" groups at that distance and he did this test 20-100yds!! He also did a video showing the hight of the arch of each arrow
Huh. I expected more of a drop, too. You increased the mass by roughly half, and got a difference of less than half of the 5 yard drop on the light arrow. Could this be speed erosion in action?
All arrows drop at the same rate. The difference we see is just time-to-distance difference. A faster arrow will drop less, because it has less time to drop.
Considering that the error was just 5 yards, there just isn't enough time for the slower arrow to drop significantly more.
So bakers is half right and half wrong
The two projectiles are on completely different trajectory curves
That’s why you see the other tests using the trajectory curve of a light arrow compare to a heavy one. And they “drop like a rock”…….
It has to be launched on the correct curve to be intellectually honest. So I got tired of the half assed tests and did it right
@@RanchFairy " *bakers is half right and half wrong* "
That's not correct, I'm simply right.
I'm not arguing, that what I said is the best way of "painting a useful mental picture", or some other poetry like that.
What I'm saying is: The laws of physics dictate, that all arrows drop at the same rate. s=g*t*t/2. The amount of drop depends solely on time (until we are splitting hairs).
What you seem to say, is that light arrows *slow down faster* , so at the end of their trajectory they fall down at a steeper angle.
That is also true, but I'm not saying it is not.
I would love to see a wind test on this. Say 30 miles per hour cross at 40 yards vs no wind. Heavy against light.
I may do that. The ranch is pretty windy and flat.
I already know the answer. Hard to hold steady!!!
But I know which arrow will perform better.
Both those arrows left the bow with roughly the same KE but when they hit the target one of them was carrying more KE than the other, hmmm I wonder which one?
Momentum video coming up.
Don't get me wrong, I like a heavier arrow for hunting. And true the heavy arrow wasn't that much lower. With that being said, the lighter arrow would still be in the vitals on a deer. On an elk, both would be in the vitals. Personally, I hunt deer and elk, so I will take all the benefits of a heavier arrow over the slight benefit of the lighter arrow on misjudging the distance.
Curious what happens if you shoot your 40 pin at 35
Love the video
The big arc in the flight is proved by the the amount of slide tape difference.
I don't buy into heavy, I think your wrong on preaching how heavy an arrow should be . But this was extremely fair and I am glad you took the time to be honest about it. I think that something worth noting is that 40 yards isn't an unquestionable shot to take on whitetail (most common animal for most bow hunters) and having a roughly 30 percent larger drop is more significant than you make it to be.
The results are to expected when the arrow is correctly zeroed as demonstrated here, heavier grain arrows are going to be worse the further out in distance you go that’s just the way it is..yes it may carry more kinetic energy but at the expense of the speed and time to the target… the real test is on live animals at distance with real reaction times… the heavier arrow yes only drops a marginal amount but for me I think the speed to get on target is going to be a huge factor. The deer/animal is going to have that much more time to react drop down and jump up off the x causing a likely miss…. Next text should be the a flight time test of arrows to target and compare to deer average reaction time.. idk just a thought I was having watching this video
Next test will be finding out how much your animals move
Which direction
And what bones will be INTRODUCED to the shot line.
It’s completely unpredictable. Fast arrow and fast animal net zero - except it has lower potential to break bones.
Plan a turns into plan B
Slow animal for whatever reason - both are winners. That one is hard to quantify. I don’t disagree the .009 second faster arrow gets there faster
But if one animal drops half way
And the next one drops faster -
And the next one spins and rolls
It gets real Plan B real fast.
I’ve got a video showing mostly deer time to target “can you beat the animals”
It was amazing the variability - I have one almost complete miss from a fast arrow because that animal was
Really fast!! A couple roll and drop
It’s wild
@@RanchFairy yeah it’s all very interesting the real world experiments that you are doing… my arrow weight I run is 550g FMJ with fixed broad heads. My arrow setup is 550g at 26.5” 75lbs and the FMJ consistently zip through so fast the deer don’t know what hits them… I need to start recording my kill shots because my deer on average so far have not gone over 75yds away
Good test, but I think you need to redo it with the same diameter arrows that are both tuned properly. Or, 2 identical bows that are tuned to the specific arrow. Either way, I like where this test is headed. Maybe reach out to Brandon or MFJJ to repeat this test since we all know they are really good shooters and both have the means and knowledge to really dial in their setups.
Keep up the good work helping us normal guys and pushing back against the naysayers.
Every time you do a test
You get more ideas to do a better test.
The self ascribed “good shooters” are going to see exactly the same thing.
It’s not as much ability as the drag and flight trajectory. All the haters will never do it right because it will prove them wrong
Brandon is solid
If you aimed lower one third on a deer, they both were enough to suck. I have skipped arrows off the bottom of a deer's torso that was predicted to drop and they never moved a muscle. However, I am surprised there was not much difference in 40 and 45 between the arrow weights. Another test with the same sighting in and same arrows, shoot the 40 yard zero at a 20 yard target and see the arc height difference? Just because...
The fact that the 650 dropped more over the extra 5 yards was expected. However the magnitude was much less than I thought it would be..
Yep. I was very surprised. In a hunting situation I doubt I'm staying inside a 1.3" error in say a western situation with angles, etc.
This test is static on flat ground in ideal situation.
More to come on the impact energy difference. It is quite significant.
So why would you test this with two completely different setups on the arrows?
Three fletch vs 4 fletch, wrap vs no wrap?
Set them both up the same as far as fletching and wrap is concerned and see what variables you get then.
What you did here is like comparing apples for taste but one of them was an orange.
@@grounded7362
Wow we are nit picky. I’ve a dollar to ten If someone you agreed with did this you’d NOT ASK the same question. You’d look at the results and say “that agrees with what tickles my ears”
Just to kick you back. I repeated the test
With two other guys shooting their bows.
Data was consistent. It’s on my channel. Feel free to bitch about the barometer, or sun angles or the fact one guy has glasses and the other doesn’t!
@@RanchFairy
WOW, you get bent out of shape worse than a weak spined arrow shot out of a high powered bow.
If it was someone I agreed with they would have done a proper comparison. If not I would have responded the same with them.
@@grounded7362
Nope - just not gonna take cheap shots from anyone not being constructive. You get flamed or you get legit answers.
Pick your poison.
Guess what! You get to hide in the cheap seats and boo. Some of us are trying to figure this stuff out. Go back to your hiding place. It’s much safer than putting out any effort
Or better yet - get in the arena! Start a you tube channel and do it “right”. Then I can nit pick ya!!
See how that works?
I’m subscriber #1. Send me the link
How does being in a saddle in a tree effect the same test?
Same as you’d normally experience
Most importantly, how do you like your new InstaPot???
Im an air fryer man!!
Bro where is the EZV!? why did you switch?
I run it 99% of the time. But for this I needed a slider to put the arrows on the correct trajectory curve.
So I have an interesting take on this. And you can poke me for stupid if it's stupid lol.
By changing mass you what you're actually doing is changing velocity. by changing velocity you change the time to target. this in turn allows gravity to act on the arrow for a little bit longer over the same flight path. Since the difference in velocity isn't that great, the change in drop is also not a lot 🤷♂️
Something to think about.
wheres the ezy V? Just when I'm about to get one, you've gone back to pins!
I would assume he is using the single pin slider just for this test because it's easier to sight in for two different weight arrows.
Love the content and love you attitude now with that said I believe, and I'm noone but 1.3 inches is alot when you take into consideration where you aim...so you shoot at a baseball size spot roughly 3 inches 1.3 is a big difference..now if you shot for the lungs something the size of a basketball 1.3 not as big of deal ...but just a talking point keep up the good work brother
You've got to think about it statistically. Say a whitetail lungs are 10" in diameter - which means you've got 5" up or down if you aim in the middle. 1.33"/5"= 26.66% loss in accuracy before any human error or animal movement. 1.33" is the size of a big cut fixed head so you're hitting an entire broadhead high or low. Significant in my book.
@TheArrowBuilder yes your right and thats why I shoot a lighter arrow with a 2 inch expandable so I don't get as much drop and bugger cut means more likely to hit something even if your off...now thats if for deer not talking about other animals..
You and my newest detractor "The Arrow Builder".......uh.....where do I begin. Let me see. You two arbitrarily and absolutely LACKING FACTUALLY reduced the kill zone on a deer to 3" (baseball size) so that you could make your point. How do people learn to gaslight so easily.
@RanchFairy let's get this strait I like your content but in 40 years of hunting I don't have a problem shooting a 1.5 expandable ....and for the record I think your right in probably all.of it ..but I can kill a squirrel with a 10 gage shot gun to..all I'm saying is I myself would rather go with the biggest cut I can and still get through with the fastest speed I can ..if deer or pigs drop soo fast why not get there as fast as possible..and you should do a video of "flappers " but sharpening them like you do the fixed blades..and I know you don't like to track but to me that's woodsman ship it's part of hunting or at least that how I was raised..but keep.up the good content..
@@chrismacomber9727
It's fine man. Youre the exception with the consistent results. In fact you're really the exception. Id keep doing what you're doing since your success rate is so high.
For static this is fine. Animals are not static !
Have your rocket man figure out animal drop/movement and add those numbers onto your miss data combined with arrow speed.
The slow arrow allows the animal to move more.
Now your getting into enough margin of miss to miss the kill zone
First step.
You need to provide the following information so the test will meet a comparative standard.
So let's box this up and test it. I've got the animals to do it. We'll start with pigs, since its actually legal.
I need you to provide the following:
1. How much every animal will move. To clarify, is it 1 foot and that's it or is it unpredictable?
By species would be great, but pigs is where you should begin.....so the test, can be tested.
2. Which direction they will move, if they will move, if they will spin, or drop or roll or spin, drop and roll!! (which is quite common actually)
3. What bones will be in the way, at impact, (which you did not intend to be in the way) for a heavy arrow and a light arrow.
troy@ranchfairy.com. Send me the parameters.
Let's go!
Still waiting
Let’s do deer b/c most people (i know) are deer hunters 1st and pig hunters ib the off season.
I’m not a hater or a math guy… but here are some preliminary numbers for deer drop in this web article I found.
Run those numbers and let’s see what the results are .
TBH - I shoot a 445 grain arrow at 70lb and 30 inch draw … speed at 292 out of a Lift.
My best analogy for FOC comparison is with cars. A Corvette is your speed arrow… Not many of us need that much speed.
A ranch fairy arrow is a Peterbilt truck… Not all of us need that much power to get an every day job done …. But if shooting X-Lrg game go heavy!
Most of us need a F150 plenty of power and speed and can get most of the jobs done.
@@darinhollingsworth1080
So your analogy is solid. What I can’t get past is two things: (well 3 actually)
1. Our arrows have the KE of 22 Long rifle.
2. An arrow in the 550 grain range has more momentum at 40 yards than a 430 grain arrow at launch. Video coming on that.
3. If the deer (or any animal) were one consistent medium we’d have a pretty easy discussion. But. They are highly variable. Meaning you have no idea what you’re going to hit when you shoot at an animal. Bones, meat, cartilage, every hit is different and requires different levels of momentum.
One of the knocks I get a lot is the big game thing. This is not pointed at you - tons of “cool guy” pros have stated this.
“For big game sure RF arrow”. So then why is that acceptable for big game? It’s quite the philosophical mis step.
My head says. “So how big is big game?”
To play devils advocate. I say, to everyone, big game starts at Elk. No one wants to hear that. But
Corvette for up to WTD - I’ll play along.
F150 for elk and big bears, etc. North America
Mack truck for eland and big nasties (Asian / cape buff, etc).
But. The Mack truck will do all 3 levels and with gusto!
The corvette will not be reliable, but yes you can do it. And it’s been done. I know. But reliably and no 500 nitro saving your butt?
I have, after 40 years of bowhunting, kept it a short range sport. I wish all bowhunters would.
@@margelawston1976
Yep!
Troy can you tell us your draw length and draw weight. Not that is changes the conclusions.
65# 28.5"
Elite Remedy
Interesting thanks