"The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight. The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…" -Chaplain Aston, Fire Hawks 10th Company
Which is a BS answer if you think about it: Space Marines are unbelievably rare in the WH40K universe, and each Marine is worth more than his weight in gold. That means that the Adeptus Astartes should instead deck their marines in the absolutely best camouflage that can be found. Because - and adding to the psuedo-psycholiogical effect you quoted - you don't fear what you see, you fear that which you can't see.
@@Kojak0 Yeah, once you've made contact and the shooting starts (especially something loud like a boltgun), the enemy knows you are there and camo won't do much. Also, tactically, Astartes are unparalleled in infiltration and approach to objectives. Camouflage only matters if the enemy is looking your way - if you're coming in on blind spots or between patrols, etc it doesn't matter much what color you're wearing.
@@HeadHunterSix But in order to infiltrate, you must not be seen in the first place (something that I don't really see the astartes do generally, except perhaps in fan fic). Besides, once the shooting starts, then it's extra important to not make out to be a clear target, because if you can be seen by an enemy, you can get shot. Not to mention ambushes, something which is paramount if you want to minimze your own and maximize the enemy's losses - you must not be seen then either.
Same here, though I've only just started collecting. But Guard still gives you freedom to invent your own colour scheme within that framework; replicating existing paint schemes really doesn't interest me.
Tau also give you some justification for picking a 'sensible' colour scheme, their fluff also states that their armour is coloured according to the terrain they're fighting in
Ian Knight That is why I went guard as well. Not just able to paint them up like actual soldiers, but the break down of companys and platoons is in line as well. My buddy went Tau, and painted them in desert like style.
I was painting spoons today so I can have a variety of shades across my T-34 battalion. For historical accuracy and because having a bunch of vehicles that look like they were all painted with one can is boring! The Russians had wooden handles on their saws btw, so I’ll be doing that too!
I suppose it depends on what period of real-world military we're talking about. Empire models sure take a of historical influence from landsknecht and similarly gaudy troop types. Regarding vehicles like rhinos, dreadnoughts and whatnot, I personally think it makes sense for them to be varied and have lots of iconography, as they're essentially very old, very valuable relics compared to something like a chimera.
Rhinos probably less so, as they are still being produced in large numbers. Dreadnoughts on the other hand really are relics, and are also the personal armour of their very ancient and celebrated occupant. I would argue that Chimeras may well be more customised by their crew than a Rhino might be. A Codex Chapter might be very strict when it comes to vehicle modification, since each chapter will have at most 100 of them, one for each squad. But there are so many Chimeras in each Guard regiment, a bit of personalisation is almost inevitable.
I agree. Military standardisation is only really a thing in quite recent history, so if you want to play historicals, and want pretty colours, play ancients, or medieval stuff, or most renaissance things...
German WW2 camo in flames of war was my favorite part of painting my army. You can really do some cool stuff with the tiny little bolt pistol sized infantry. It made my 40K painting 10x more detailed.
This video showed in my email with the title shortened to "What I learned from pain..." - thought this was going to be a Dark Eldar themed episode! Great video as always Atom, keep it up.
There are some forces in for example Warhammer 40,000 that really don't invite camouflage or something too standardised: Eldar & Space Marines for example. While if you much prefer that more camouflage and standardised look there are at least two good examples of armies that revel in it: Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) & Tau. Now you might be thinking 'What but Tau are like Ochre, how does that blend in with _________ [insert landscape here] and it doesn't, it fits in with Deserts and similar terrain, but the key thing is it's a standardised accross the whole force look. When you look at official recommended paint schemes or frequently used paint schemes for the Tau, they tend more towards this sternly uniform appearance and inclusion of camo, the same is true of Astra Militarum [Imperial Guard] and by extension Tempus Militarum (Not the box art blue/cream, but the Tempestus codex paint schemes, plenty are camo looks and standardsised appearance accross both soldier and vehicles.). So when picking an army to play, it can be a good idea to decide ahead of time; 'How you like your army to look.' and pick a force that kind of has that going for it already. Though of course you can go against those principles. Just remember when painting damage on Eldar... Wraithbone doesn't rust and doesn't chip metalically!
Olive drab paint was one of the most used non-weaponry items during WW II. We shipped literally enough of it to fill a thousand swimming pools across the Atlantic during the course of our time in the war.
Probably far more than that, considering how many gallons it takes to paint a tank and how many hundreds of thousands of vehicles were manufactured and involved in the conflict.
Well, this is a complex concern, as the "military" approach to color and painting changed significantly over times based on the which of various battlefield factors is prioritized. 1) national/military pride - at various points in history being in the military was a status symbol, so wearing a very specific and styalized uniform was a symbol of belonging to that very proud nations military 2) camoflague - in periods of history where warfare was mobile and the human eye was used to identify targets, camouflage meant the you were harder for the enemy to see and thus shoot. 3) IFF (identify friend or foe) - very often a specific paint scheme and uniform was chosen to be sure, in the chaos of a battlefield, you could tell friend from enemy. One reason many US forces in WW2 didn't use detailed camp was camp made them "look German" 4) corrosion prevention - its very not exciting, but believe it or not, most modern military items are painted not for camo (visual ID is far less frequently used for targeting, at least vehicles) but to prevent either natural corrosion (rust) or chemical corrosion 5) ease of manufacture - things are often painted in one color, because thousands are being manufactured, and they don't want production slowed by 50% for a detailed paint job. Now, for space marines, for example, #1 is the leading factor, possibly followed by #4. They are an elite force, so have great pride in their appearance. Also that appearance can have positive effects on friendly morale, and negative on enemy morale. A marine chapter typically only has 100 or so rhinos, so #5 isn't an issue, and as tech is hard to reproduce, #4 is a big deal as you want the item to last a long time. Having a paint job be "more military" depends on what era of military you are talking about.
I did this with my Blood Bowl team, Most of the model sticks to 4 colors and a wash. Super quick and it looks awesome and keeps them looking like a team.
This is sort of why Death Korps of Krieg are so appealing to me. They're the only 40k force that's appropriately scaled and detailed enough so that they actually do look their best when they're painted as if they were a real thing - Even regular Astra Militarum sort of have that cartoony aesthetic that demands a striking, fantastical paintjob. As an Ultramarines modeler most of the time, I'm looking forward to the change of pace.
Makes sense for futuristic settings where the military supplies every item of personal equipment, not so much fantasy ones. Armies before the 19th century were made up of troops who had to purchase some if not most of their own gear, so they were far less uniform in colour than today. Even if you have a clan, faction, or state colour, there's going to be variation between individuals in the exact shade of that colour, and accessories like tools, cloaks, canteen, packs etc could really be any colour since they aren't being produced and supplied by the state.
Just getting back into 40k. Discovered your videos and really enjoying them. Army vet here and loved the military comparison. The army still paints everything green lol.
Bolt Action British made me realise that browns with a bit of green thrown into the mix can be a real challenge. The GW palette just doesn't have the correct tonal range (unless you star mixing like a mad scientist...). Definitely an interesting challenge.
So I've painting my Imperial Guard in a realistic way (I've got first degree in military history, and I'm currently in a process in attaining master degree. So I feel pretty confident about how my Cadians should look). My Cadians are painted in 5 primary colours: 1. Castellan green for armour, no washes or highlights. 2. Deathworld forest green for fatigues. Washed with agrax earthshade, and neaten back again with deathworld forest. 3. Abbadon black for lasguns, boots, belts etc. 4. Zandri Dust for canteens and backpacks, washed heavily with agrax earthshade ( so it looks like it's made from cordura) 5. Rhinox hide for pouches etc. And then some details with balthasar gold (aquilas), ledbelcher, mechanicus standard grey etc. Vehicles are just sprayed with mournfang brown with deathworld forrest applied as camouflage. As far hull goes. They look really really good, like a real fighting force. And I'm very proud of them.
I really love your approach to your vids. Super interesting even if it's something I am only vaguely interested in. One of the things that I kept thinking about throughout this vid was that IRL, military are colored so they CAN'T be seen. Our miniatures have to be painted so they CAN be seen. Even from a distance. For old eyes like mine!
Exactly what i did with my latest Space Marine army. Wanted a metallic, simple scheme so went with Leadbelcher Spray, Black left shoulder pad, black weapon casing, Green eyes and a very small amount of gold. Washed with Nuln Oil and dry brushed Silver for highlights and it looks very effective yet simple/easy to do :) Like atom says, it doesnt have to be complicated :)
I just got into Age of Sigmar, and I chose to play High elves who are generally blue and silver from what I can tell, but I wanted to split my force into divisions, so I give each division a different paint job. For my rangers usually green with tan, but some have blue armour. For my palace gaurd, I chose blue with yellow, but the leader is black and red. And for my cavalry, blue and silver, with red gems. I do feel though that each individual is going to be slightly different, so I give each model a unique aspect, like facial tattoos or different coloured skin. most of my elves have blue skin, but some have green. there's one who's skin is a mix of leadbelcher and macragge blue.
Even German tanks were produced with little to no colour. Tanks rolled out painted grey or even just primer red, the camo was painted on in the field for the most part.
The points you made are well taken……however, a uniform olive drab US vehicle is a new vehicle generally. As the armor was “lived in” they develop considerable color variation. Olive Drab can vary considerably in shade and pioneer tools when originally installed might have been spray painted with the vehicle but as handles broke or tools were lost, new ones could have unpainted wooden handles and steel that ranged from black to bare steel. So its not wrong to coat an M4 with a solid coat of OD, but if you are modeling a force that has been at it for a while, you are going to find stowage stuff all over the vehicles and all of it will be different colors.
It's funny you posted this video. I've been reading about historicaly accurate painting from the On Display series and the author talks a lot about making vehicles interesting even when monotone with weathering and under painting. The level of painting there is well beyond table top quality but it showed that historical paint jobs could tell a story just as easily as bright and garish heraldry.
Great video, and so so true. I'm an ex-tanky and when our vehicles went for respray they all came back one colour, including everything we forgot to take off it such as shovels, tow straps, pick axes, storage bin tarps. Even, and i kid you not, the damn wheels and the road rubber on the wheels!!!!
I'm new to the hobby and I thought the same. My buddy who has been doing it for years is making an imperial fist army. When I got into the hobby I liked the Dark Angels and Death Watch because they were, in my opinion, more how they should look. I imagine Dark Angels to suit more of a forest kind of battlefield and Death Watch for more shadowy/night time ops. But that's just me.
Great point!!! I always wondered when everyone put so much detail into military equipment in historical war gaming. Very great points and maybe not so over top for people getting into the hobby. Ty again for another great video.
This is why I always preferred to paint my minis more muted tones, and I *always* put in a ton of battle wear. I even had some of my Necrons have Bolter holes that were in-process of self-repair. That's all not including my Angry Marines army I was building. Because I built those as a joke.
Good points. I started with historical wargaming. Napoleonics and 1/72 world war 2. It was a great background to start painting figures. I think that’s why I like 30&40k. It allows me to use my own creative ideas/intuition when painting. But I have 1000’s in reference books & have learned so much through course of research & modeling Great post. Thanks!
I enjoyed this! Funnily enough, I am currently trying to paint more colours on my miniatures, because I've long been a fan of painting everything the same colour apart from a couple stand out parts. A lot of the best looking minis (in my opinion) have lots of colours on them. Now I've seen this, I've realised that realism may come from a simpler palette of colours. Thanks for the inspiration!
"If it moves salute it, if it doesn't paint it." I use different camo patterns to ID platoons and it is OK to have shovels painted with wooden handles and metal blades, sometimes they were just picked up as replacements along the way or paint was short. Good video.
I wholeheartedly agree I've often thought that it was ridiculous in 40k that camouflage has been forgotten about. How could there be any advantage to any soldier even in the far future to be decked out in bright yellow!
This is an interesting idea and personally I think a Space Marine chapter that was painted with this approach would probably stand out quite a bit more than your average chapter. In a way (talking about 40K still) it actually makes a lot of sense to use this approach; they are, after all, a branch of the military, an elite branch of course but still a branch. You could still get creative with this as well, since you could still do some highlighting and shading, just working off of your "uniform" color, and since they're essentially wearing a one-man vehicle (its the best comparison for their body armor) you could still apply weathering effects like dust, mud, paint chips etc.
I remember I spent almost a whole week researching the colors on German Infantry uniforms and equipment. "Ah, what the hell" I thought, and went with green on their uniforms and a dark green on their helmets. And I'm happy with the results. :) And I painted all my Panzer IVs and Panthers grey, or "dunkelgrau". (well it's a bit of a brownish grey. Skavenblight Dinge)
Well also think about how 'good' is a monotone army of miniatures going to look on a table from 3-5 feet away. It's going to look like it was just primered. So there is a bit of method behind the madness. But I get it. And the Imperial Guard do adhere to more military standards of paint, uniforms and camo.
Heraldry had a purpose in medieval warfare, bright colours are easily seen so you can see who your fighting besides and who you need to fight. Not much need for camo when your stood a few hundred yards apart in great big lines facing each other, same goes for the Napoleonic wars.
I grew up painting scale models. My first was an M-60 tank, then a Tiger, then the USS Nimitz. I only started wargames at 12. I was in the opposite situation.
Atom, great video. As primarily a historical gamer I was always aghast to see al the color on some sci-fi and fantasy armies. That's why I play Black Legion CSM. Base coat black, then add some detail
I paint to give my armies the most impressive scheme possible. I like striving for the best painted army awards at events. That requires more color theory than realism. I try to inject realistic textures into smaller details like weathering on steel and leathers, but the bold and bright primary colors wow my opponents, and I like doing that tbh.
And that's great, certainly. However, for people who aren't striving for as much and just want decently painted tabletop stuff, thinking about a more simplified color palette for 'military' style units can be a good idea. Thanks for watching!
As someone who has painted tons of armies for WWII and Moderns - I'm GLAD that other game systems (Fantasy/SciFi) capitalize on colorful armies. After a while, it is BORING AS HELL to paint yet ANOTHER force Drab browns and greens. Painting those vibrant colors however ridiculous it might be is super fun and is aesthetically pleasing.
@@rodrigohernandez1766 Theres a game by Battlefront that is quite literally called "Tanks" that I know is pretty popular. Bolt Action has a supplement called "Tank War" which is mostly tank battles. My personal favorite though is What A Tanker! from Too Fat Lardies - great ruleset.
The opening of the Astartes animated movie sums up a Space Marine's need for camo IMHO 😝 Great content as always, Uncle A - thank you! The evolution of military uniform from the dark ages through medieval and high renaissance as weapon effectiveness and maneuver doctrine was so slow to the first and second world wars. Poulton and Thayer are both interesting reads (as well as rather peculiar characters!) on the topic.
Makes sense for (what must seem like cavemen for people in 40k) that it's all green in WW2 when it's mostly visual in finding targets. Maybe in 40k it doesn't matter much as they have so much extra to spotting targets. Still a fun topic & a valid reason for all of us in 40k/AoS to get a WW2 military vehicle and paint it up to learn what all can be learned from trying out some historical military mini painting as a break from 40k & learning new styles/techniques from the historical mini painters.
I have to say I never found the issue he was talking about when I first got into 40k. I bought a starter kit in Ed 2 and painted the marines as Ultra Marines. Even as the vehicle list & troop choices grew the U/Blue remained the centrally themed colour and any heraldry on the vehicles tended to be white. The weapons were red & gun metal and the tracks black & gun metal. The marines themselves were blue with the rims of their shoulder pads yellow, which if I recall correctly, was the colour for the second company. But the thing was the colours were minimal and whether infantry or armour, the colour scheme tied them together. As for FoW, I think he forgot a little issue. As well as a star, at least in the British, Canadian, German & Italian armies, there were markings or No's clearly defining the unit and place within that the vehicle came from. And the Shovel, mint condition was green, but hit a stone while digging and the metal showed through. Also, equipment may have been the same green but the shading varied depending on the age of the equipment supplied. Ultimately, it is still down to what you can and want to do. I have done more as experience and ability grew.
When I got back into the hobby, I had recently separated from the US Marines and everything we had was tan or green. My Space Marines are tan. The Headhunters Space Marine Chapter is all tan/green/black. It was odd to see for some, but they always liked the simple color.
Of course this ties in with your video about historical gamers. They are viewed as more snobbish regarding realism and generally put their effort into that. When you build an army for fictional war gaming, you are trying to tell a story, you focus on the narrative, so as much realistic inspiration as you want to take, you'll always end up doing something just because it looks right
My main thing with color choice in 40k is finding a scheme that will stand out on the table top. I have painted some stuff that looks awesome 5 inches from my face but once you're on the table top it looks like one single boring color. I want to enjoy my armies both from up close and on the table fighting.
I loved this video Atom. This was actually one of my first thoughts for my Warhammer 40k T'au army. I thought of a bit of fluff, I am an engineer by profession so I choose Bork'an sept one, because they themselves are the engineering focuesed sept, but also because I wanted to do a desert force with a desert camouflage. Many times when You see warhammer 40k figures, the camo of the madel is a complety opposite and constrasting colour to the base that the model is standing on. For me it didn't make sense, because a camouflage pattern is supposed to blend in with the terrain, not stand out. Also T'au fluff says that they repaint their models to fit with the terrain of the mission, but leave markings. So I made my models match my base, but made the texture of the bases contrast the model. My bases are rough texture kind of sand and sandstone stones, mixed with a little fine sand on some areas. But my models are T'au so it's nice clean panels, but with a brown/beige striped tiger camo. The only thing on my models that stand out is the Bork'an sept markings that are a complementary colour sky blue.
That is why I love the difference between my Dark Eldar and Guard. My Guard have very basic looks, especially Catachans, which look like guys from Vietnam. Green drab pants and vests/jackets, black shirts, various color bandannas. My Dark Eldar look like what they are, a cobbled together group of minor Kabals, covens, cults, and gangs, all reflecting a colorful heraldry and gaudy, nauseatingly bright schemes, they are space pirates after all. When you put the two facing one another, you really get that juxtaposition that highlights their respective origins.
For total opposites, take a look at the differences in aircraft camouflage during the Great War - the artist in me is drawn to the German - but don't try painting that lozenge effect, otherwise it's a short trip to the padded cell.
Good video. I feel like Battletech can stand as an in-between in terms of colors and patterns/camos, which allows for greater diversity and realism. Keep the videos coming, Atom!
if you think of the empire and the space marines a bit like the napoleonic age different army's had different colours like red, yellow, blue, green and so on.
It's not that. Look at who uses silly colours :Sisters, Mechanicum, Space marines, Titans. Look at who doesn't: Guard, arbites, The former are using equiptment capable of feeling pride. Armour with opinions. Armour that's indoctrinated to believe its self sacred and worthy of veneration. Guns that demmand they be considered holy. The latter are using limited sentient equiptment and any machine spirit is has exists to understand it's as worthless as its operator, but must do well for the betterment of all. Marine armour is proud of its heraldy. A lasgun just doesn't want to die with its operator.
The Empire is actually based on the late medieval German states of the Holy Roman Empire, whilst the Space Marines are in part based on 15th century European men at arms in full plate. My guard army is going to take style hints from the British uniforms of the Regency through to WW1. History is great, but I like the freedom that sci fi and fantasy gives me.
This was a great point about painting armies and in this hobby, there is a lot of pressure in our painting schemes. I always thought it was weird that most 40k, and even Warmachine armies to a point, have these crazy paint schemes. But in the case of 40K, I guess its in the Lore that camo is not a space marine thing... I posted some pictures of a scout unit that I made a while back and I remember that someone pointed out that space marines didnt wear camo because they felt it was not honorable or something like that. As an Army Vet, I didnt understand why a scout unit wouldnt have camo, but I am still new to 40K and learning the lore. But what struck me was that there are people out there in the community that are going to make those points and even get annoyed at you for it. I just feel that if I am going to take the time to paint these miniatures, I am going to paint them how I want. But with the point of historical war gaming, I would think that accuracy would be more appreciated. I couldnt see Pink T-62s being fielded without some people looking at you strange, LOL
When you are a superhuman veteran with decades or possibly even centuries of combat experience and training, you probably learn methods of infiltration and advance that alleviate the need for camo. After all, camo only works (if it works at all) if the enemy is looking right at you. Better to not be seen at all. Astartes Scouts often use camo cloaks, though, and that's where you can have some fun.
Great timing Adam! I've been planning on getting back into 40K and was tired of seeing the colorful over the top paint schemes for basic troop units.Sure it is the whole point of the 40K fantasy sci-fi world but it really started to bother me. My task is to make a semi realistic looking and working Tau army. I'm talking about the color scheme and gear the troop units are going to have. Battle suits are a bit harder topic for me currently since I'm not sure if I want to accessorize them the same way the tanks are n the modern military (or even in the ww2). This video is great in it's own way which encourages people to think creatively and imagining their own designs for a sci-fi army without it being a huge color explosion.Tau is rather good example: before they had this desert looking color palette, yet very exaggerated but some what believable, now they have moved into this red and white mess of a color scheme whis is still univere friendly but in no way practical from a tactical view point. Just sayin' Thanks for the video!
Tau are actually a great example of this! Whilst Tau do have 'septs' (Red = Vior'la, Icy blue - Bork'an) Their main armour colour is always determined by the environment that they fight in. Only small accessory details are what seperates them out in to these 'septs'. They are a perfect army to do camouflage patterns and/or a militaristic feel...even though they are fish aliens with plasma weapons! :)
I really like the aesthetic of World War 2 era, but I'm more into alternate history. Lucky enough for me, nothing is stopping me from creating a small force of CSA (Combined Syndicates of America) against the Reichspakt from a Hearts of Iron IV mod called Kaiserreich. The main visual difference would only be insignias and such (CSA having red and black star on their Shermans instead of white ones etc). If you're wondering what the heck I'm talking about: Kaiserreich plays with the idea of "what if Germany had won the first world war?"
Yeah, I agree, I have a Space Marine, Tau and Imperial Guard army that are mostly camo green. I can't imagine bright colours on an army looking right especially now cover saves in 40k are a modifier. i.e. They don't have a better armor save than any cover save like in earlier editions. #edit# Another thing is the battlefield and how out of place vehicles and troop can look. A bright red tank in an ice setting looks good but makes no sense.
I painted some Hordes models from Circle of Orboros called Bloodtrackers. Painted them in a more medieval style rather than fantasy - I got totally bashed online. "You need more popping colors", "Everything blends, you need more color" etc. Well I love my bloodtrackers, and getting bashed after coming back to the hobby after 18 years is kind of redicilous. So I stopped putting up my work on mainstream games (Warmachine, Warhammer etc). 15mm communities have a lovely support tho!
me and my dad play flames of war. He also has an American force and we often laughed about the same green that they use. Dad was actually going to paint the shovels for a bit of difference and then realized that they painted them green. We had a good laugh about that.
thats why i never really got in to the space marines, i'd want to paint them all battleship grey but then from a distance they would just look like i hadnt painted them. id put a bit of rust on there as well, but it didnt really do it for me.
Great vid to listen to as I sit here painting my Napoleonic Line Infantry while pondering the tartan on the kilts of the next regiment to do. RED, then BLUE oooo... then GREEN. Masses of it. This is real man's army. The Easter Bunny would do this army.
Ha, finally something I was ahead of the curve on. I was in the infantry when I got into 40K, and started with Guard. Thus my army is pretty much Catachan green and black. Occasional silver markings, but that is it (other than faces and hands, obviously) Vehicles and weapons teams have some bolt gun metal so that they are not so glaringly under painted compared to everyone else. The crazy colours in 40K always bothered me, especially on snipers and scouts. My Saga models have more colour, well, the levies do. The wariors/hearth guard are proffesional soldiers, and thus uniformed.
Oh yeah, and Canada likes green too. When in Afghanistan, the locals called our LAV III's the green monster that shits out white people. Sounds better in Pashtu I am told.
In 40k the bright colors and overuse of gold makes sense from a tactical standpoint. Space Marines are a shock troop. They aren't supposed to be used in scenarios where camouflage would be effective. If there is a space marine there you WILL know it from the glowing eyes and the stomp stomp stomp of every heavily armored footstep. You can probably hear them coming from a mile away and this is what they want. Space marines don't camouflage because they want to effect morale with their presence. For friendly forces it's a glorious sight, they've come from on high in their drop pods like angels from heaven. For the enemy they are vengeful demons showing the spoils of their glory on their bodies. This also has the added effect that the space marines don't have to repaint their armor in every engagement. Space Marines are called that because they are fast attack, heavy troops. You have a problem that needs space marines and they will arrive in your system already prepared to go and can deploy in minutes, Get in their drop pods and literally fall to earth. Having to repaint their armor to camouflage themselves before every combat would slow them down. The Imperial guard are much slower to deploy and have much cheaper uniforms they can issue depending on terrain although they rarely actually issue the appropriate gear because they're terrible. Also Imperial guard are in general a much slower force designed for conventional warfare. They hang out in trenches in bunkers and fight for decades on planets, not 10 minutes, kill the alien, mutant heretic then leave like Space Marines. As for Eldar, well Eldar are psychic and thus can always sense the presence of others. Camouflage therefore is foreign to them the same as putting on a moustache and a hat isn't going to fool your cat into thinking you're disguised because you'll smell the same. They have cloaking devices which they sometimes use however so they have some understanding of the importance of not being seen. Tyranids have no sense of personal self protection so camouflage is useless to them. Tau DO use camo. they use it a lot. Orks also use camoflauge but it's seen as "Un-orky" because why would you hide from someone and not fight them? But there are "Kommandos" that have been known to wear drab colors and blend in. Chaos are too insane to care any more. In fact Imperial Guard that turn to chaos often paint their body armor bright colors when they start sticking spikes to themselves. Nobody knows what Necrons think but I assume that they camoflauge in reverse. They're dark gunmetal colored so they make everything else the same color.
+Eder Novacki I have. The live show on every other Sunday kind of acts like a podcast, I suppose. I'm not 100% sure what I'd podcast about, really. Thanks for watching!
As an Army Vet 10 years of service, the term we use is Uniform, everything is to be kept Uniform. And that doesn't mean the clothing that's term used for literally everything. The color Olive Drab or Coyote is on everything to keep it Uniform. Even our laws, all branches, are called the Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ. A lot of times you'll hear Article 15, yeah that's Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Dark Angels would be the only "camouflaged" Space Marines chapter :) By the way, the tame colors and models are exactly the reason I don't like most historical games. I'm spoiled by over-the-top models and colorful themes. But older historical military formations actually wore more colors and heraldic standards. Probably not as rich as Warhammer Fantasy, but still. Not uncommon in the Middle Ages and even more so later, think Napoleonic Era for example. French military actually still used those blue-red and very visible uniforms at the start of WW1. They only changed them after suffering horrible casualties due to machine gun fire during the first year of war.
The German army at the start of WWII had tanks painted black- while they had air superiority. Camouflage became an issue when the air was contested or lost. The Allies in 1944 had superority and so didn't need camo- and using it would result in them "looking German". Contast the Pacific Theatre, where USMC vehicles were still using camo in operations in 1945- because they expected to be outnumbered when they assaulted.
This one really hits close to home. I'm retired Army/NationalGaurd with multiple overseas deployments. THis is all my opinion, yours may vary, but YES!!!!! You will not see race car paint jobs on Military vehicles. they're combat vehicles not runway models. WHen you are not out "on mission" you are pulling maintence on your gear and vehicles. Graffiti? Nope NOT Authorized. Flashy Paint Jobs? WHere would you even get the paint? Weathering effects? FORGET IT , they'll hand you 1/2 dozen cans of tan spray paint and have you paint over it. Rust effect? Rust is the prime Heresy and Abomination in the eyes of the Lord God, Known as the Commander and his holy prophet, the First Sargent . :D It's ALL green in a woodland environment or Tan if it's a desert or scrub environment. Thank you for this video.
At the start of the WWI France had blue jackets and red pants. The British for a really long time wore red coats. Celts painted themselves blue. So being a colorful army actually is a longer standing practice than modern military drab. So I think fantasy it is acceptable. Idk what 40K is doing, maybe they have a Lore/fluff explanation.
There used to be a bit of lore about Imperial Guard worlds only being allowed to raise one type of regiment - either infantry, armour or artillery. Is that still the case? Because I would like all of my force to come from the same home world.
I'm applying this to my soon to be army. Death Korps Of Krieg. Say 80% realism and 20% funzo colors. Should work quite well since the Krieg model range is also al little less hero scale. Also first time airbrushing an armyyyy :D:D:D:D:D:D Thanks for the awesome inspiration!
Accurate painting in historical might be actually the easiest thing to paint: Give everything a olive green base, shade it with black, then get all patchy with a sponge and some brown for dirt. Looks horrible, but what would you expect from several months of war? Hell, even the face could be a simple brown layer and then another shade of grey for dust, green for camo, more brown for dirt or black for a flamer-tan. Quick, effective way, and more accurate than many difficult "clean" paint jobs.
Honestly, you can use any models you want unless you're A) playing at a GW store, I suppose; or B) the rules of the tourney have specific guidelines for the brand of the models used. Thanks for watching!
I've carried this advice on painting tanks for years, and I decided to rewatch it while I was cooking. At the end of the video, a question struck.me. What was the Wargamers Consortium, and what happened to it?
The more I thought about this article the more I realised that the lad has a very narrow focus on his historical research. There is nothing wrong with what he said about the US army and the production runs and colour schemes it was left with. But for other armies this is less true and in fact they did represent colour variation depending on where and when they fought. For example, British vehicles in the early war period in France were fielded with a colour scheme called Caunter, (Named after the man who developed it). It consisted of two shades of green and a yellow brown in linear patterns on the vehicles to break up silhouette on the battle field. The next major field of operations was Africa and the introduction of the desert sand colour scheme. However special forces developed a pink base colour because this actually blended very well with the scenery, while the army moved onto two tone colours for their disruptive effect and this carried on into Italy. However in Europe, with Nth America being the only area not subject to mass bombing, the production facilities dictated the colour to be olive drab. But this does not allow for issues that impacted the Germans, paint shortages could lead to a range of unit colours. Ultimately it is down to your historical research.
As a player of British in Bolt Action, and a scale modeller, I can say that Caunter was actually used in North Africa. You may find it you dive a little deeper into the subject, as I have, that the British army in WW2 actually had more colour variation in there vehicles than any other combatant nation, just not all at the same time.
As many have mentioned, your observations hold true for 20th century and later wargames. But all other periods of history were loaded with color. Take a look into Napoleonics or the Seven Years War.
Another point - 17th to 19th century uniforms featured tons of expensive gold braid, pom poms, exotic bird feathers, bear and beaver fur imported from America, fancy colored turn backs inside the coats, and expensive custom buttons for units.
I am having a hard time finding anything that shows the tools on a Sherman to have been painted green. I have gone through colorized WWII photos and have seen nothing like it, so I painted the tools on my Shermans.
blktom I'm sure there are examples of tools being camouflaged on WW2 tanks. it stands to reason that you wouldn't want a bright shiny spade on display on your tank.
I can see it, specially when in a rush and in the field where you don't have time to take off everything. I just can't find any photos showing it. I have found photos showing non-painted tools. Just a thing Atom and I may disagree on.
![Painting Flames of War British Armour - Fast and Simple! [How I Paint Things]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IaLDbhP9NF4/mqdefault.jpg)
"The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.
The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…" -Chaplain Aston, Fire Hawks 10th Company
Chaplain Aston should have said, "what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to kill" :)
Which is a BS answer if you think about it: Space Marines are unbelievably rare in the WH40K universe, and each Marine is worth more than his weight in gold. That means that the Adeptus Astartes should instead deck their marines in the absolutely best camouflage that can be found.
Because - and adding to the psuedo-psycholiogical effect you quoted - you don't fear what you see, you fear that which you can't see.
@@Kojak0 So far from the books I have read. It seems that the are usually in quick, very direct frontal assaults where camo would not be super useful.
@@Kojak0 Yeah, once you've made contact and the shooting starts (especially something loud like a boltgun), the enemy knows you are there and camo won't do much. Also, tactically, Astartes are unparalleled in infiltration and approach to objectives. Camouflage only matters if the enemy is looking your way - if you're coming in on blind spots or between patrols, etc it doesn't matter much what color you're wearing.
@@HeadHunterSix But in order to infiltrate, you must not be seen in the first place (something that I don't really see the astartes do generally, except perhaps in fan fic). Besides, once the shooting starts, then it's extra important to not make out to be a clear target, because if you can be seen by an enemy, you can get shot. Not to mention ambushes, something which is paramount if you want to minimze your own and maximize the enemy's losses - you must not be seen then either.
the topic of the video is specifically why I chose Imperial guard/astra militarum. it was the most "military" type army
Karl Mac good man, AFFIX BAYONETS!
Same here, though I've only just started collecting. But Guard still gives you freedom to invent your own colour scheme within that framework; replicating existing paint schemes really doesn't interest me.
Tau also give you some justification for picking a 'sensible' colour scheme, their fluff also states that their armour is coloured according to the terrain they're fighting in
Ian Knight That is why I went guard as well. Not just able to paint them up like actual soldiers, but the break down of companys and platoons is in line as well. My buddy went Tau, and painted them in desert like style.
Same
My wife has started referring to flames of war as "Fifty shades of Green" after helping me get our army ready for a doubles tournament.
Yeah, that'll happen with Flames of War. Thanks for watching!
Lol, thats why I chose a more colourful game as my next after Flames of War. I wanted something other then greens, brown's lol
I was painting spoons today so I can have a variety of shades across my T-34 battalion. For historical accuracy and because having a bunch of vehicles that look like they were all painted with one can is boring!
The Russians had wooden handles on their saws btw, so I’ll be doing that too!
@@desertzombie Napoleonics?
@@cloaker2829 I went Star Wars Legion
I suppose it depends on what period of real-world military we're talking about. Empire models sure take a of historical influence from landsknecht and similarly gaudy troop types. Regarding vehicles like rhinos, dreadnoughts and whatnot, I personally think it makes sense for them to be varied and have lots of iconography, as they're essentially very old, very valuable relics compared to something like a chimera.
Rhinos probably less so, as they are still being produced in large numbers. Dreadnoughts on the other hand really are relics, and are also the personal armour of their very ancient and celebrated occupant.
I would argue that Chimeras may well be more customised by their crew than a Rhino might be. A Codex Chapter might be very strict when it comes to vehicle modification, since each chapter will have at most 100 of them, one for each squad. But there are so many Chimeras in each Guard regiment, a bit of personalisation is almost inevitable.
I agree. Military standardisation is only really a thing in quite recent history, so if you want to play historicals, and want pretty colours, play ancients, or medieval stuff, or most renaissance things...
landsknecht...
Amongst other things, yes.
I was just referring to the American mispelling via OP.
German WW2 camo in flames of war was my favorite part of painting my army. You can really do some cool stuff with the tiny little bolt pistol sized infantry. It made my 40K painting 10x more detailed.
Just don't get into Napoleonic's. It makes fantasy look dull. Just check out the Hussars.
Oh yeah, what Neil said.
I have six Russian, three British and four Prussians units, I broke the color wheel.
great video as always but i need to point out that for historical games set in middle age/renaissance you need a brightly colored army,
+Alex T What if you wanted to paint them very dirty and battle worn. Thanks for watching!
This video showed in my email with the title shortened to "What I learned from pain..." - thought this was going to be a Dark Eldar themed episode!
Great video as always Atom, keep it up.
Interesting. Thanks for watching!
"You can have it in any color you like, just so long as it's green."
- U.S. military circa 1940's
There are some forces in for example Warhammer 40,000 that really don't invite camouflage or something too standardised: Eldar & Space Marines for example. While if you much prefer that more camouflage and standardised look there are at least two good examples of armies that revel in it: Astra Militarum (Imperial Guard) & Tau. Now you might be thinking 'What but Tau are like Ochre, how does that blend in with _________ [insert landscape here] and it doesn't, it fits in with Deserts and similar terrain, but the key thing is it's a standardised accross the whole force look. When you look at official recommended paint schemes or frequently used paint schemes for the Tau, they tend more towards this sternly uniform appearance and inclusion of camo, the same is true of Astra Militarum [Imperial Guard] and by extension Tempus Militarum (Not the box art blue/cream, but the Tempestus codex paint schemes, plenty are camo looks and standardsised appearance accross both soldier and vehicles.).
So when picking an army to play, it can be a good idea to decide ahead of time; 'How you like your army to look.' and pick a force that kind of has that going for it already. Though of course you can go against those principles. Just remember when painting damage on Eldar... Wraithbone doesn't rust and doesn't chip metalically!
Olive drab paint was one of the most used non-weaponry items during WW II. We shipped literally enough of it to fill a thousand swimming pools across the Atlantic during the course of our time in the war.
Makes sense. Thanks for watching!
Probably far more than that, considering how many gallons it takes to paint a tank and how many hundreds of thousands of vehicles were manufactured and involved in the conflict.
I'm a big fan of the Sherman as well. I also have a fondness for the M3 Stuart (DC Comics GI Combat, Haunted Tank) :)
+EngineerJeff I'm looking forward to building and painting a Sherman when I get more into Bolt Action. Thanks for watching!
Well, this is a complex concern, as the "military" approach to color and painting changed significantly over times based on the which of various battlefield factors is prioritized.
1) national/military pride - at various points in history being in the military was a status symbol, so wearing a very specific and styalized uniform was a symbol of belonging to that very proud nations military
2) camoflague - in periods of history where warfare was mobile and the human eye was used to identify targets, camouflage meant the you were harder for the enemy to see and thus shoot.
3) IFF (identify friend or foe) - very often a specific paint scheme and uniform was chosen to be sure, in the chaos of a battlefield, you could tell friend from enemy. One reason many US forces in WW2 didn't use detailed camp was camp made them "look German"
4) corrosion prevention - its very not exciting, but believe it or not, most modern military items are painted not for camo (visual ID is far less frequently used for targeting, at least vehicles) but to prevent either natural corrosion (rust) or chemical corrosion
5) ease of manufacture - things are often painted in one color, because thousands are being manufactured, and they don't want production slowed by 50% for a detailed paint job.
Now, for space marines, for example, #1 is the leading factor, possibly followed by #4. They are an elite force, so have great pride in their appearance. Also that appearance can have positive effects on friendly morale, and negative on enemy morale. A marine chapter typically only has 100 or so rhinos, so #5 isn't an issue, and as tech is hard to reproduce, #4 is a big deal as you want the item to last a long time.
Having a paint job be "more military" depends on what era of military you are talking about.
Joshua Danker Thx Josh, I was about to post those very points, but luckily I found your posting first. ;)
I did this with my Blood Bowl team, Most of the model sticks to 4 colors and a wash. Super quick and it looks awesome and keeps them looking like a team.
This is sort of why Death Korps of Krieg are so appealing to me. They're the only 40k force that's appropriately scaled and detailed enough so that they actually do look their best when they're painted as if they were a real thing - Even regular Astra Militarum sort of have that cartoony aesthetic that demands a striking, fantastical paintjob. As an Ultramarines modeler most of the time, I'm looking forward to the change of pace.
It's true, they're very different than the normal GW stuff. Thanks for watching!
Makes sense for futuristic settings where the military supplies every item of personal equipment, not so much fantasy ones. Armies before the 19th century were made up of troops who had to purchase some if not most of their own gear, so they were far less uniform in colour than today. Even if you have a clan, faction, or state colour, there's going to be variation between individuals in the exact shade of that colour, and accessories like tools, cloaks, canteen, packs etc could really be any colour since they aren't being produced and supplied by the state.
Just getting back into 40k. Discovered your videos and really enjoying them. Army vet here and loved the military comparison. The army still paints everything green lol.
Bolt Action British made me realise that browns with a bit of green thrown into the mix can be a real challenge. The GW palette just doesn't have the correct tonal range (unless you star mixing like a mad scientist...).
Definitely an interesting challenge.
Vallejo has lots of good military colors. Thanks for watching!
So I've painting my Imperial Guard in a realistic way (I've got first degree in military history, and I'm currently in a process in attaining master degree. So I feel pretty confident about how my Cadians should look).
My Cadians are painted in 5 primary colours:
1. Castellan green for armour, no washes or highlights.
2. Deathworld forest green for fatigues. Washed with agrax earthshade, and neaten back again with deathworld forest.
3. Abbadon black for lasguns, boots, belts etc.
4. Zandri Dust for canteens and backpacks, washed heavily with agrax earthshade ( so it looks like it's made from cordura)
5. Rhinox hide for pouches etc.
And then some details with balthasar gold (aquilas), ledbelcher, mechanicus standard grey etc.
Vehicles are just sprayed with mournfang brown with deathworld forrest applied as camouflage. As far hull goes.
They look really really good, like a real fighting force. And I'm very proud of them.
They sound cool. Thanks for watching!
I really love your approach to your vids. Super interesting even if it's something I am only vaguely interested in.
One of the things that I kept thinking about throughout this vid was that IRL, military are colored so they CAN'T be seen. Our miniatures have to be painted so they CAN be seen. Even from a distance. For old eyes like mine!
That's a way to look at it, for sure. Thanks for watching!
Exactly what i did with my latest Space Marine army. Wanted a metallic, simple scheme so went with Leadbelcher Spray, Black left shoulder pad, black weapon casing, Green eyes and a very small amount of gold. Washed with Nuln Oil and dry brushed Silver for highlights and it looks very effective yet simple/easy to do :) Like atom says, it doesnt have to be complicated :)
This is a very good point. This is something that I took into account when I was deciding the paint scheme for my imperial guard.
I just got into Age of Sigmar, and I chose to play High elves who are generally blue and silver from what I can tell, but I wanted to split my force into divisions, so I give each division a different paint job. For my rangers usually green with tan, but some have blue armour.
For my palace gaurd, I chose blue with yellow, but the leader is black and red.
And for my cavalry, blue and silver, with red gems.
I do feel though that each individual is going to be slightly different, so I give each model a unique aspect, like facial tattoos or different coloured skin. most of my elves have blue skin, but some have green. there's one who's skin is a mix of leadbelcher and macragge blue.
Sounds great. Thanks for watching!
Even German tanks were produced with little to no colour. Tanks rolled out painted grey or even just primer red, the camo was painted on in the field for the most part.
Adam is correct.His methods are what make my painting excellent.
The points you made are well taken……however, a uniform olive drab US vehicle is a new vehicle generally. As the armor was “lived in” they develop considerable color variation. Olive Drab can vary considerably in shade and pioneer tools when originally installed might have been spray painted with the vehicle but as handles broke or tools were lost, new ones could have unpainted wooden handles and steel that ranged from black to bare steel. So its not wrong to coat an M4 with a solid coat of OD, but if you are modeling a force that has been at it for a while, you are going to find stowage stuff all over the vehicles and all of it will be different colors.
Great video Uncle Adam...this is why I always recommend newbies to pick the Raptor chapter if they want to play 40K...green everywhere....
Perhaps, but you still really need to get the right kind of look.
It's funny you posted this video. I've been reading about historicaly accurate painting from the On Display series and the author talks a lot about making vehicles interesting even when monotone with weathering and under painting. The level of painting there is well beyond table top quality but it showed that historical paint jobs could tell a story just as easily as bright and garish heraldry.
Great video, and so so true. I'm an ex-tanky and when our vehicles went for respray they all came back one colour, including everything we forgot to take off it such as shovels, tow straps, pick axes, storage bin tarps. Even, and i kid you not, the damn wheels and the road rubber on the wheels!!!!
Probably just more efficient that way. Thanks for watching!
I'm new to the hobby and I thought the same. My buddy who has been doing it for years is making an imperial fist army. When I got into the hobby I liked the Dark Angels and Death Watch because they were, in my opinion, more how they should look. I imagine Dark Angels to suit more of a forest kind of battlefield and Death Watch for more shadowy/night time ops. But that's just me.
Great point!!! I always wondered when everyone put so much detail into military equipment in historical war gaming. Very great points and maybe not so over top for people getting into the hobby. Ty again for another great video.
This is why I always preferred to paint my minis more muted tones, and I *always* put in a ton of battle wear. I even had some of my Necrons have Bolter holes that were in-process of self-repair.
That's all not including my Angry Marines army I was building. Because I built those as a joke.
Good points. I started with historical wargaming. Napoleonics and 1/72 world war 2. It was a great background to start painting figures. I think that’s why I like 30&40k. It allows me to use my own creative ideas/intuition when painting. But I have 1000’s in reference books & have learned so much through course of research & modeling
Great post. Thanks!
I enjoyed this! Funnily enough, I am currently trying to paint more colours on my miniatures, because I've long been a fan of painting everything the same colour apart from a couple stand out parts. A lot of the best looking minis (in my opinion) have lots of colours on them. Now I've seen this, I've realised that realism may come from a simpler palette of colours. Thanks for the inspiration!
Glad to help. Thanks for watching!
agree with this. 'simplicity is the key'
"If it moves salute it, if it doesn't paint it." I use different camo patterns to ID platoons and it is OK to have shovels painted with wooden handles and metal blades, sometimes they were just picked up as replacements along the way or paint was short. Good video.
Most of my Shermans have names painted on the side to break the monotony
I'd like to try that more on my Shermans, too. Thanks for watching!
I wholeheartedly agree I've often thought that it was ridiculous in 40k that camouflage has been forgotten about. How could there be any advantage to any soldier even in the far future to be decked out in bright yellow!
This is an interesting idea and personally I think a Space Marine chapter that was painted with this approach would probably stand out quite a bit more than your average chapter. In a way (talking about 40K still) it actually makes a lot of sense to use this approach; they are, after all, a branch of the military, an elite branch of course but still a branch. You could still get creative with this as well, since you could still do some highlighting and shading, just working off of your "uniform" color, and since they're essentially wearing a one-man vehicle (its the best comparison for their body armor) you could still apply weathering effects like dust, mud, paint chips etc.
Ive seen it be done before. It actually looks really friggin awesome.
I remember I spent almost a whole week researching the colors on German Infantry uniforms and equipment.
"Ah, what the hell" I thought, and went with green on their uniforms and a dark green on their helmets. And I'm happy with the results. :) And I painted all my Panzer IVs and Panthers grey, or "dunkelgrau". (well it's a bit of a brownish grey. Skavenblight Dinge)
Well also think about how 'good' is a monotone army of miniatures going to look on a table from 3-5 feet away. It's going to look like it was just primered. So there is a bit of method behind the madness.
But I get it. And the Imperial Guard do adhere to more military standards of paint, uniforms and camo.
Heraldry had a purpose in medieval warfare, bright colours are easily seen so you can see who your fighting besides and who you need to fight. Not much need for camo when your stood a few hundred yards apart in great big lines facing each other, same goes for the Napoleonic wars.
I grew up painting scale models. My first was an M-60 tank, then a Tiger, then the USS Nimitz. I only started wargames at 12. I was in the opposite situation.
Atom, great video. As primarily a historical gamer I was always aghast to see al the color on some sci-fi and fantasy armies. That's why I play Black Legion CSM. Base coat black, then add some detail
Adam great video, would like to see a little more flames on your channel although I also like 40k and AoS.
I paint to give my armies the most impressive scheme possible. I like striving for the best painted army awards at events. That requires more color theory than realism. I try to inject realistic textures into smaller details like weathering on steel and leathers, but the bold and bright primary colors wow my opponents, and I like doing that tbh.
And that's great, certainly. However, for people who aren't striving for as much and just want decently painted tabletop stuff, thinking about a more simplified color palette for 'military' style units can be a good idea. Thanks for watching!
As someone who has painted tons of armies for WWII and Moderns - I'm GLAD that other game systems (Fantasy/SciFi) capitalize on colorful armies. After a while, it is BORING AS HELL to paint yet ANOTHER force Drab browns and greens. Painting those vibrant colors however ridiculous it might be is super fun and is aesthetically pleasing.
I know it’s a little bit late but, which ww miniature games have you painted?? Trying to know more about tanks and airplanes miniature games
@@rodrigohernandez1766 Did you mean WWII games? Man there's tons. Are you looking for tank or plane games specifically?
irishmarine3 looking for tanks and Thank you for the response, it means a lot
@@rodrigohernandez1766 Theres a game by Battlefront that is quite literally called "Tanks" that I know is pretty popular. Bolt Action has a supplement called "Tank War" which is mostly tank battles. My personal favorite though is What A Tanker! from Too Fat Lardies - great ruleset.
irishmarine3 terrific, I appreciate it man.
The opening of the Astartes animated movie sums up a Space Marine's need for camo IMHO 😝
Great content as always, Uncle A - thank you! The evolution of military uniform from the dark ages through medieval and high renaissance as weapon effectiveness and maneuver doctrine was so slow to the first and second world wars. Poulton and Thayer are both interesting reads (as well as rather peculiar characters!) on the topic.
Makes sense for (what must seem like cavemen for people in 40k) that it's all green in WW2 when it's mostly visual in finding targets. Maybe in 40k it doesn't matter much as they have so much extra to spotting targets.
Still a fun topic & a valid reason for all of us in 40k/AoS to get a WW2 military vehicle and paint it up to learn what all can be learned from trying out some historical military mini painting as a break from 40k & learning new styles/techniques from the historical mini painters.
I have to say I never found the issue he was talking about when I first got into 40k. I bought a starter kit in Ed 2 and painted the marines as Ultra Marines. Even as the vehicle list & troop choices grew the U/Blue remained the centrally themed colour and any heraldry on the vehicles tended to be white. The weapons were red & gun metal and the tracks black & gun metal. The marines themselves were blue with the rims of their shoulder pads yellow, which if I recall correctly, was the colour for the second company. But the thing was the colours were minimal and whether infantry or armour, the colour scheme tied them together. As for FoW, I think he forgot a little issue. As well as a star, at least in the British, Canadian, German & Italian armies, there were markings or No's clearly defining the unit and place within that the vehicle came from. And the Shovel, mint condition was green, but hit a stone while digging and the metal showed through. Also, equipment may have been the same green but the shading varied depending on the age of the equipment supplied. Ultimately, it is still down to what you can and want to do. I have done more as experience and ability grew.
When I got back into the hobby, I had recently separated from the US Marines and everything we had was tan or green. My Space Marines are tan. The Headhunters Space Marine Chapter is all tan/green/black. It was odd to see for some, but they always liked the simple color.
Of course this ties in with your video about historical gamers. They are viewed as more snobbish regarding realism and generally put their effort into that. When you build an army for fictional war gaming, you are trying to tell a story, you focus on the narrative, so as much realistic inspiration as you want to take, you'll always end up doing something just because it looks right
My main thing with color choice in 40k is finding a scheme that will stand out on the table top. I have painted some stuff that looks awesome 5 inches from my face but once you're on the table top it looks like one single boring color. I want to enjoy my armies both from up close and on the table fighting.
Myself, personally, I don't like paint jobs that 'look good' from a distance *because* they don't look good up close. Thanks for watching!
I mean I want color schemes that do both haha
Good topic to chat about
I loved this video Atom. This was actually one of my first thoughts for my Warhammer 40k T'au army. I thought of a bit of fluff, I am an engineer by profession so I choose Bork'an sept one, because they themselves are the engineering focuesed sept, but also because I wanted to do a desert force with a desert camouflage. Many times when You see warhammer 40k figures, the camo of the madel is a complety opposite and constrasting colour to the base that the model is standing on. For me it didn't make sense, because a camouflage pattern is supposed to blend in with the terrain, not stand out. Also T'au fluff says that they repaint their models to fit with the terrain of the mission, but leave markings. So I made my models match my base, but made the texture of the bases contrast the model. My bases are rough texture kind of sand and sandstone stones, mixed with a little fine sand on some areas. But my models are T'au so it's nice clean panels, but with a brown/beige striped tiger camo. The only thing on my models that stand out is the Bork'an sept markings that are a complementary colour sky blue.
If you're playing Sylvaneth it's still all brown, black, green...and some spooky blues.
As GW said ages past: "Camouflage is the Color of Fear!"
That has a different meaning if you are playing the Raptors. ;)
That is why I love the difference between my Dark Eldar and Guard. My Guard have very basic looks, especially Catachans, which look like guys from Vietnam. Green drab pants and vests/jackets, black shirts, various color bandannas. My Dark Eldar look like what they are, a cobbled together group of minor Kabals, covens, cults, and gangs, all reflecting a colorful heraldry and gaudy, nauseatingly bright schemes, they are space pirates after all. When you put the two facing one another, you really get that juxtaposition that highlights their respective origins.
For total opposites, take a look at the differences in aircraft camouflage during the Great War - the artist in me is drawn to the German - but don't try painting that lozenge effect, otherwise it's a short trip to the padded cell.
Some of the WW1 airplane paint jobs were stunning. Thanks for watching!
I agree totally. My epic imperial guard tanks are just like that: uniform in their paint jobs.
Good video. I feel like Battletech can stand as an in-between in terms of colors and patterns/camos, which allows for greater diversity and realism.
Keep the videos coming, Atom!
Battletech was the earliest stuff I ever painted. I did it really poorly, however. Thanks for watching!
The raptors space marine successor chapter of the raven guard looks very nice and fits your description kinda.
if you think of the empire and the space marines a bit like the napoleonic age different army's had different colours like red, yellow, blue, green and so on.
It's not that.
Look at who uses silly colours :Sisters, Mechanicum, Space marines, Titans.
Look at who doesn't: Guard, arbites,
The former are using equiptment capable of feeling pride. Armour with opinions. Armour that's indoctrinated to believe its self sacred and worthy of veneration. Guns that demmand they be considered holy.
The latter are using limited sentient equiptment and any machine spirit is has exists to understand it's as worthless as its operator, but must do well for the betterment of all.
Marine armour is proud of its heraldy. A lasgun just doesn't want to die with its operator.
The Empire is actually based on the late medieval German states of the Holy Roman Empire, whilst the Space Marines are in part based on 15th century European men at arms in full plate.
My guard army is going to take style hints from the British uniforms of the Regency through to WW1. History is great, but I like the freedom that sci fi and fantasy gives me.
This was a great point about painting armies and in this hobby, there is a lot of pressure in our painting schemes. I always thought it was weird that most 40k, and even Warmachine armies to a point, have these crazy paint schemes. But in the case of 40K, I guess its in the Lore that camo is not a space marine thing... I posted some pictures of a scout unit that I made a while back and I remember that someone pointed out that space marines didnt wear camo because they felt it was not honorable or something like that. As an Army Vet, I didnt understand why a scout unit wouldnt have camo, but I am still new to 40K and learning the lore. But what struck me was that there are people out there in the community that are going to make those points and even get annoyed at you for it. I just feel that if I am going to take the time to paint these miniatures, I am going to paint them how I want. But with the point of historical war gaming, I would think that accuracy would be more appreciated. I couldnt see Pink T-62s being fielded without some people looking at you strange, LOL
When you are a superhuman veteran with decades or possibly even centuries of combat experience and training, you probably learn methods of infiltration and advance that alleviate the need for camo. After all, camo only works (if it works at all) if the enemy is looking right at you. Better to not be seen at all. Astartes Scouts often use camo cloaks, though, and that's where you can have some fun.
Great timing Adam! I've been planning on getting back into 40K and was tired of seeing the colorful over the top paint schemes for basic troop units.Sure it is the whole point of the 40K fantasy sci-fi world but it really started to bother me.
My task is to make a semi realistic looking and working Tau army. I'm talking about the color scheme and gear the troop units are going to have. Battle suits are a bit harder topic for me currently since I'm not sure if I want to accessorize them the same way the tanks are n the modern military (or even in the ww2).
This video is great in it's own way which encourages people to think creatively and imagining their own designs for a sci-fi army without it being a huge color explosion.Tau is rather good example: before they had this desert looking color palette, yet very exaggerated but some what believable, now they have moved into this red and white mess of a color scheme whis is still univere friendly but in no way practical from a tactical view point.
Just sayin'
Thanks for the video!
Tau are actually a great example of this!
Whilst Tau do have 'septs' (Red = Vior'la, Icy blue - Bork'an) Their main armour colour is always determined by the environment that they fight in. Only small accessory details are what seperates them out in to these 'septs'.
They are a perfect army to do camouflage patterns and/or a militaristic feel...even though they are fish aliens with plasma weapons! :)
I really like the aesthetic of World War 2 era, but I'm more into alternate history. Lucky enough for me, nothing is stopping me from creating a small force of CSA (Combined Syndicates of America) against the Reichspakt from a Hearts of Iron IV mod called Kaiserreich. The main visual difference would only be insignias and such (CSA having red and black star on their Shermans instead of white ones etc).
If you're wondering what the heck I'm talking about: Kaiserreich plays with the idea of "what if Germany had won the first world war?"
Yeah, I agree, I have a Space Marine, Tau and Imperial Guard army that are mostly camo green. I can't imagine bright colours on an army looking right especially now cover saves in 40k are a modifier. i.e. They don't have a better armor save than any cover save like in earlier editions. #edit# Another thing is the battlefield and how out of place vehicles and troop can look. A bright red tank in an ice setting looks good but makes no sense.
I painted some Hordes models from Circle of Orboros called Bloodtrackers. Painted them in a more medieval style rather than fantasy - I got totally bashed online. "You need more popping colors", "Everything blends, you need more color" etc. Well I love my bloodtrackers, and getting bashed after coming back to the hobby after 18 years is kind of redicilous. So I stopped putting up my work on mainstream games (Warmachine, Warhammer etc). 15mm communities have a lovely support tho!
me and my dad play flames of war. He also has an American force and we often laughed about the same green that they use. Dad was actually going to paint the shovels for a bit of difference and then realized that they painted them green. We had a good laugh about that.
0:56 - Did you just call me a steampunk?
Back in the early days of White Dwarf there were camo paint jobs for Space Marines. Some were quite drab.
thats why i never really got in to the space marines, i'd want to paint them all battleship grey but then from a distance they would just look like i hadnt painted them. id put a bit of rust on there as well, but it didnt really do it for me.
Grey marines with some rust would be kind of cool, I think. Thanks for watching!
Great vid to listen to as I sit here painting my Napoleonic Line Infantry while pondering the tartan on the kilts of the next regiment to do. RED, then BLUE oooo... then GREEN. Masses of it. This is real man's army. The Easter Bunny would do this army.
Ha, finally something I was ahead of the curve on. I was in the infantry when I got into 40K, and started with Guard. Thus my army is pretty much Catachan green and black. Occasional silver markings, but that is it (other than faces and hands, obviously) Vehicles and weapons teams have some bolt gun metal so that they are not so glaringly under painted compared to everyone else. The crazy colours in 40K always bothered me, especially on snipers and scouts. My Saga models have more colour, well, the levies do. The wariors/hearth guard are proffesional soldiers, and thus uniformed.
Oh yeah, and Canada likes green too. When in Afghanistan, the locals called our LAV III's the green monster that shits out white people. Sounds better in Pashtu I am told.
In 40k the bright colors and overuse of gold makes sense from a tactical standpoint. Space Marines are a shock troop. They aren't supposed to be used in scenarios where camouflage would be effective. If there is a space marine there you WILL know it from the glowing eyes and the stomp stomp stomp of every heavily armored footstep. You can probably hear them coming from a mile away and this is what they want.
Space marines don't camouflage because they want to effect morale with their presence. For friendly forces it's a glorious sight, they've come from on high in their drop pods like angels from heaven. For the enemy they are vengeful demons showing the spoils of their glory on their bodies.
This also has the added effect that the space marines don't have to repaint their armor in every engagement.
Space Marines are called that because they are fast attack, heavy troops. You have a problem that needs space marines and they will arrive in your system already prepared to go and can deploy in minutes, Get in their drop pods and literally fall to earth.
Having to repaint their armor to camouflage themselves before every combat would slow them down. The Imperial guard are much slower to deploy and have much cheaper uniforms they can issue depending on terrain although they rarely actually issue the appropriate gear because they're terrible. Also Imperial guard are in general a much slower force designed for conventional warfare. They hang out in trenches in bunkers and fight for decades on planets, not 10 minutes, kill the alien, mutant heretic then leave like Space Marines.
As for Eldar, well Eldar are psychic and thus can always sense the presence of others. Camouflage therefore is foreign to them the same as putting on a moustache and a hat isn't going to fool your cat into thinking you're disguised because you'll smell the same. They have cloaking devices which they sometimes use however so they have some understanding of the importance of not being seen.
Tyranids have no sense of personal self protection so camouflage is useless to them.
Tau DO use camo. they use it a lot.
Orks also use camoflauge but it's seen as "Un-orky" because why would you hide from someone and not fight them? But there are "Kommandos" that have been known to wear drab colors and blend in.
Chaos are too insane to care any more. In fact Imperial Guard that turn to chaos often paint their body armor bright colors when they start sticking spikes to themselves.
Nobody knows what Necrons think but I assume that they camoflauge in reverse. They're dark gunmetal colored so they make everything else the same color.
Nice info, thanks
Great thoughts, man!
Hey Uncle Atom, have you have thought of making a podcast?
+Eder Novacki I have. The live show on every other Sunday kind of acts like a podcast, I suppose. I'm not 100% sure what I'd podcast about, really. Thanks for watching!
As an Army Vet 10 years of service, the term we use is Uniform, everything is to be kept Uniform. And that doesn't mean the clothing that's term used for literally everything. The color Olive Drab or Coyote is on everything to keep it Uniform. Even our laws, all branches, are called the Uniform Code of Military Justice or UCMJ. A lot of times you'll hear Article 15, yeah that's Article 15 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Dark Angels would be the only "camouflaged" Space Marines chapter :)
By the way, the tame colors and models are exactly the reason I don't like most historical games. I'm spoiled by over-the-top models and colorful themes.
But older historical military formations actually wore more colors and heraldic standards. Probably not as rich as Warhammer Fantasy, but still. Not uncommon in the Middle Ages and even more so later, think Napoleonic Era for example. French military actually still used those blue-red and very visible uniforms at the start of WW1. They only changed them after suffering horrible casualties due to machine gun fire during the first year of war.
Always liked the Sturmgeschütz as a German tank they had a few different armaments too.
I think Space Marines are really Heraldic Space Knights - hence all the colours and lack of camo
The German army at the start of WWII had tanks painted black- while they had air superiority. Camouflage became an issue when the air was contested or lost.
The Allies in 1944 had superority and so didn't need camo- and using it would result in them "looking German". Contast the Pacific Theatre, where USMC vehicles were still using camo in operations in 1945- because they expected to be outnumbered when they assaulted.
This one really hits close to home. I'm retired Army/NationalGaurd with multiple overseas deployments.
THis is all my opinion, yours may vary, but YES!!!!!
You will not see race car paint jobs on Military vehicles. they're combat vehicles not runway models.
WHen you are not out "on mission" you are pulling maintence on your gear and vehicles.
Graffiti? Nope NOT Authorized.
Flashy Paint Jobs? WHere would you even get the paint?
Weathering effects? FORGET IT , they'll hand you 1/2 dozen cans of tan spray paint and have you paint over it.
Rust effect? Rust is the prime Heresy and Abomination in the eyes of the Lord God, Known as the Commander and his holy prophet, the First Sargent . :D
It's ALL green in a woodland environment or Tan if it's a desert or scrub environment.
Thank you for this video.
At the start of the WWI France had blue jackets and red pants. The British for a really long time wore red coats. Celts painted themselves blue. So being a colorful army actually is a longer standing practice than modern military drab. So I think fantasy it is acceptable. Idk what 40K is doing, maybe they have a Lore/fluff explanation.
There used to be a bit of lore about Imperial Guard worlds only being allowed to raise one type of regiment - either infantry, armour or artillery. Is that still the case? Because I would like all of my force to come from the same home world.
No, worlds can have different units now I think, cause Cadians have all three.
I'm applying this to my soon to be army. Death Korps Of Krieg. Say 80% realism and 20% funzo colors. Should work quite well since the Krieg model range is also al little less hero scale.
Also first time airbrushing an armyyyy :D:D:D:D:D:D
Thanks for the awesome inspiration!
+Xander Dirven I've noticed that, as well. The DKoK aren't nearly as stocky as the regular Guard. It's kind of nice. Thanks for watching!
really good points and if Epic 40k come back as I think it will this could turn into a tutorial?
Accurate painting in historical might be actually the easiest thing to paint: Give everything a olive green base, shade it with black, then get all patchy with a sponge and some brown for dirt. Looks horrible, but what would you expect from several months of war? Hell, even the face could be a simple brown layer and then another shade of grey for dust, green for camo, more brown for dirt or black for a flamer-tan. Quick, effective way, and more accurate than many difficult "clean" paint jobs.
+Lukas Hutter Very true, and it makes your models quicker to get on the table. Thanks for watching!
Great Facebook group and great content!
+Neotericity I'm glad you appreciate it. Thanks for watching!
US armor would also have unit markings.
Well said
Nice one sir!
I did five colours on 6mm world war 2 infantry.
Yeah... even I thought I was mad.
can you talk about using replacement models for different wargames(example: using Perry minis for warhammer)? i need your wisdom on this!
Honestly, you can use any models you want unless you're A) playing at a GW store, I suppose; or B) the rules of the tourney have specific guidelines for the brand of the models used. Thanks for watching!
Sounds great ill keep that in mins :D Im new in the hobby and i love your vids and appreciate the answer!
I've carried this advice on painting tanks for years, and I decided to rewatch it while I was cooking. At the end of the video, a question struck.me. What was the Wargamers Consortium, and what happened to it?
Imagine what all those plane crews thought when their commander was like. Guys we’re gonna repaint the entire plane
If GW's stuff wasn't so damn expensive I'd build Imperial Guard force and paint them like Soviets in 45 with white recognition stripes and all that.
The more I thought about this article the more I realised that the lad has a very narrow focus on his historical research. There is nothing wrong with what he said about the US army and the production runs and colour schemes it was left with. But for other armies this is less true and in fact they did represent colour variation depending on where and when they fought. For example, British vehicles in the early war period in France were fielded with a colour scheme called Caunter, (Named after the man who developed it). It consisted of two shades of green and a yellow brown in linear patterns on the vehicles to break up silhouette on the battle field. The next major field of operations was Africa and the introduction of the desert sand colour scheme. However special forces developed a pink base colour because this actually blended very well with the scenery, while the army moved onto two tone colours for their disruptive effect and this carried on into Italy. However in Europe, with Nth America being the only area not subject to mass bombing, the production facilities dictated the colour to be olive drab. But this does not allow for issues that impacted the Germans, paint shortages could lead to a range of unit colours. Ultimately it is down to your historical research.
As a player of British in Bolt Action, and a scale modeller, I can say that Caunter was actually used in North Africa. You may find it you dive a little deeper into the subject, as I have, that the British army in WW2 actually had more colour variation in there vehicles than any other combatant nation, just not all at the same time.
As many have mentioned, your observations hold true for 20th century and later wargames.
But all other periods of history were loaded with color. Take a look into Napoleonics or the Seven Years War.
Another point - 17th to 19th century uniforms featured tons of expensive gold braid, pom poms, exotic bird feathers, bear and beaver fur imported from America, fancy colored turn backs inside the coats, and expensive custom buttons for units.
I am having a hard time finding anything that shows the tools on a Sherman to have been painted green. I have gone through colorized WWII photos and have seen nothing like it, so I painted the tools on my Shermans.
blktom I'm sure there are examples of tools being camouflaged on WW2 tanks. it stands to reason that you wouldn't want a bright shiny spade on display on your tank.
I can see it, specially when in a rush and in the field where you don't have time to take off everything. I just can't find any photos showing it. I have found photos showing non-painted tools. Just a thing Atom and I may disagree on.
What I learned from this video is every war-gaming and miniature nerd (like myself) has a cat t-shirt. 😄