Alitalia Wingtip Hits Plane in JFK
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- Very rare for planes to collide especially when they are only going a few knots, but these pilots not only hit the plane they also flew away.
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The Alitalia/AirFrance accident happened on June 17th, 2022 and was investigated by the NTSB as accident DCA22LA135. The docket also contains photos. The elevator of AirFrance was cut/destroyed by the impact. Luckily the wingtip (winglet) of Alitalia only showed scratches. AirFrance was indeed at stand 9, however, they were waiting for a tug/marshallers and not fully parked yet. That is why Alitialia managed to clip its tail while passing behind. The NTSB report is very brief and doesn't mention anything about the performance of ATC. I hope JFK ATC did learn from this anyway. The reponse was too slow and it seemed they didn't take it seriously. They were lucky. Would have been a lot worse if things were a little different and AirFrance would have been on its way to take off - with that split elevator...
Thanks. For some reason I couldn't view the report, and an alternate source showed it as still pending. Appreciated.
Couldn’t have been Alitalia, they’ve been out of business over 5 years.
@@MasterCarguy44-pk2dq Painting airplanes is expensive?
@@coopercovelo - that may have contributed to the confusion - meaning the call sign wouldn't match the insignia but I don't think that was the case here.
@@MasterCarguy44-pk2dq
Alitalia ceased operations in October 2021, so it was less than 2 years ago. Most of Alitalia's assets were re-organized as ITA Airways, which started operations in October 2021. ITA Airways's logo has the same colors as Alitalia and is somewhat similar stylistically, so the AirFrance crew probably mistook ITA for Alitalia.
I am floored by how thick this controller was. It sounded like there was a party going on in the background so maybe they were distracted but holy cow. I think the Air France pilot kept his cool maybe too well, a bit of non-standard phraseology might have gone a long way to waking up the controller to what was going on.
I agree the controller was dense. Seems like he needed to hear Emergency! Stop all Alitalia from takeoff now!!!
They need Kennedy Steve back!
I would have said "Fine, if their plane falls out of the sky, their deaths are on your head" to wake that controller up a bit
@@RipleySawzen spot on
The controller was most likely confused by the fact that AF was reporting that they were hit by Alitalia. There were no Alitalia aircraft at JFK at the time. Or in the 8 months preceding the incident. Because Alitalia did not exist. It was ITA that hit them, the successor airline to Alitalia. This is why you hear the Tower controller address "ITARROW," (ITA's callsign,) not "ALITALIA" (Alitalia's callsign.) Also, there was a significant delay between when the hit occurred and when Air France contacted Ground. By that time, the ITA aircraft was already entering the runway and receiving their takeoff clearance from Tower. It's been a while so I don't remember the exact details, but I seem to recall it having been about half an hour between when the actual accident happened and when Air France reported it.
It's a bit worrying to me that the ITA pilot received a report that they collided with another plane and decided to continue a transatlantic flight rather than return for an inspection. That said, the way the controller brings it up is just frustrating. He sounds like he doesn't believe the Air France pilot that's reported a collision and impact and then asks them if they experienced damage. Of course they don't think they've experienced damage or had an impact if they took off.
Agreed. The controller who contacted the ita flight didn't communicate the air French pilots report, he dumbed it down factually and in terms of urgency. That was dangerous and irresponsible.
@@andysPARK How right you are .The controller was a real dope
Not just the danger of a damaged aircraft getting airborne, but all the metal FOD that could be raining down on taxiways and runways that could ingest into the engines.
Or pierce a wing and create a fuel leak ignited by a spark; exactly what happened to Air France’s Concorde on takeoff from Paris CDG.
I can’t believe that Air France can’t give their pilots better English language training. There are special courses dealing with language accents
@@totototonio The tyre tread came off as a huge piece , and impacted the bottom of the tank , full tank , the shockwave burst it , engine ignited the outflow,, 300mm piece of metal did it..
FOD at this particular time is the least of your worries. You need to contact Air Italia IMMEDIATELY to stop a disaster from happening. Then once Air Italia and Air France are located and inspected THEN they can worry about a FOD walk and inspection.
Or even damage tyres to rupture fuel tank
The way that Air France pilot carefully pronounces "hit" even though a leading H isn't used that way in his language makes it clear he is being very conscious of his accent. I don't understand why the controller didn't understand which plane he was talking to or that a hit/touch had occurred. All you need to absorb the first time to react and get the takeoff guy's attention is "French plane, Italian plane, hit."
The controller didn't want to understand. Time is money.
The planes just said goodbye to eachother and did highfive :)
I disagree. That guy's accent was _thick._ And no, I can't say that leading 'H' in 'hit' was enunciated very clearly, definitely not so that I would say it's clear that the guy was being "very cautious of his accent". But maybe it's just me, I'm not particularly used to listening to French accents.
Idk, but I would recommend that people try to listen to just the audio without the subtitles, and bear in mind that the controller got that call out of nowhere. I, too, would've been very confused.
@@mnxs Yes, the French guy has an accent. But yes, this is an international airport and the controllers to understand different accents is important. And French would be one of the most common accents in JFK airport.
@@mnxs Why do you assume I was using or reading subtitles? I don't even *watch* the screen most of the time. This is what I'm listening to while doing other things. As Kelsey explained, ATCs at international airports are going to be very used to hearing those accents. In NYC they're not only going to get a lot of traffic coming from France, but also a lot of traffic coming from Canada which likely means they've interacted with French Canadians as well.
No the leading H didn't sound like a breathy English H but you can hear a millisecond of a pause where he emphasized the beginning of that word so it clearly wasn't just "it."
I'm partially deaf and struggle with certain accents, including many francophones here in Canada, but that captain was being as clear as he possibly could be and I understood him fine. The only thing I struggled to parse was the name of the defunct Italian airline, but why would I as someone who isn't a professional in the aviation space know what one, right?
Possible controller deviation…
Tower, state your intentions!
How many souls and beers in the tower
@@Lynch30xd
Then the controller gives Alitalia a friendly wave and sends him across the Atlantic.
Yeah, very indecisive message to a plane that's about to go over an ocean for 8 hours "oh yeah some french guys say maybe you touched something or something else maybe. you didn't feel anyhing right? no didn't think so those frenchies were probably smoking something ok bye"
@@pikekeke exactly, in my mind this should be a bigger deal. Whatever happened to doing your job and doing it well above average?
@@j.sarnak1391 Reminded me very much of another one I saw where a plane lost a wheel during takeoff.
Two separate planes confirmed it happened. But ATC didn't seem to find it important at all.
And when they did eventually reach the pilot of that plane he didn't believe it.
Started arguing hoping that he could catch the other pilots in a lie.
As if he could argue the wheel back on by pretending it didn't happen.
@@pikekeke probably afraid they might have to do paperwork 🤣
@@pikekeke Why the frig are people blaming the Atc? IT IS NOT HIS FAULT THE PILOT DID NOT SPEAK GOOD ENGLISH. Because he is a atc in N.Y. right?. Frigg You.
I'm in awe with the way the controller talked to the Alitalia pilot. Just an idiotic communication 'Did you suffer any damages?". What?? If they were aware, they wouldn't take off, and if the damage was major, they would have crashed already. They should have at least INFORMED that the Alitalia needed to be careful because they certainly had unnoticed damage, or diverted it back to check
The controller knew that Air France was laying so he just checked in to shut up the french.
@@robertsears8323 what do you mean "knew that AF was lying"? If a report of something like this comes, it should be protocol to halt everyone and investigate
I worked for Alitalia at JFK and they did not have Alitalia planes one after another in close sequence. AIR China & Jamaica would leave before another Alitalia plane would depart.
They should have notified the Italian plane immediately, while it was still on the ground ffs - I don't think I've ever heard a JFK ATC be so unprofessional! I hope the Air France captain/company made a formal complaint, because that was ridiculous - I'm mad as hell about it, and I'm only a viewer! I do realise it's not that deep, lol, but for some reason this one really got to me...!
@@sharoncassell9358, I have no idea what you're talking about. An Air France was hit by an Alitalia plane. All Alitalia planes should be notified and stopped immediately. What does the order of planes taking off has to do with it?
Airplane captain: 10 knots is really slow.
Sailboat captain: Holy shit guys!!! Were going 10 knots!!!!
Snail captain: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
You go faster during a squall though.
@@aralornwolf3140 Not really. Still limited by the hull speed. Any extra force will either blow out your sails, destroy the rigging, or at worse, flip you over. That's why you reef those sails before the squall hits.
@@ptrinch,
You go faster, until one of those things happen*
@@aralornwolf3140 You still have the hull speed limits. That's the reason things break. A displacement hull that is 60' at waterline can not exceed 10 knots (10.38 to be exact). Keep adding more power.. .speed stays the same, stress builds, things break.
(Note: I'm referring to typical sailboats. In a dingy or using hydrofoils capable of planing, then yeah... you go faster.)
Was that the janitor on the radio while the controllers were having a party?! Stunning.
HEYYYYYYYY. WHOOOOO. HEYYYYA. Party, what party?! This is just another day at work at JFK.
The ground controller's annoyance at dealing with a serious problem is infuriating. He needs to be listening to this whole exchange in the ATM's office to explain what he thinks he was doing. They're lucky the plane wasn't seriously damaged, with this being the one chance to stop a disaster.
Sounded like they were in the middle of a birthday party. He was probably annoyed that he was interrupted from eating his cake.
I was thinking the same thing.
The controller was right and he knew Air France was NOT hit so there was nothing to be done.
@@robertsears8323 So why would the Air France captain invent this story out of nothing for no reason? Is he insane? If so, how can he be an Air France captain? This story doesn't make sense at all. Something is missing. Maybe we should listen to what came before that. Maybe ATC got in the AF captain nerves, they were fighting or something. It doesn't make sense.
@@AxmihaMeuSaco Because they are French and that is what they like to do to Italians.
I'm a 35 year commercial electrician and take my job very seriously. I sometimes make mistakes. Usually, they just cost a little time and money. I couldn't imagine the pressure of being an airline pilot.
How often were you grounded as a child?
@@wesss9353 very often. We paid the price when we fkd up, for sure. 🤣
@@Deeked sounds like good parenting - you learned personal responsibility.
Wait a second, i don't know why but i somewhat recognize your profile picture.
@camiloz2482 Destiny1 and 2. A video game I play sometimes, but I am terrible at. It's just fun to shoot aliens in the face. 😁
Our son was Air Force ATC, and worked at a location where every country that buys C-130s from us sends their pilots for qualification training. He said that as long as they were using standard phraseology, everything was fine. Any deviations from that and it could get very interesting very quickly.
😂😂
*Smart son!* When I was a kid, I enlisted and worked 12 hour shifts on the flight line ( C-130s ) and it was hard to simultaneously work on my degree and flying lessons. My ATC buddy sailed right through his masters degree and aviation ratings because he had a cushy, cake ATC job. I do everything the hard way.
Obviously, standard phraseology exists for a reason… Unfortunately this is something that many native english speaking ATC apparently are unable to understand and they speak as if they were in a pub in Texas.
That sinking feeling is unmistakable. I remember my first gaff while flying to Janesville, WI as a newly minted pilot. The tower is not radar equipped, so as I approached for landing I was asked if I wanted a left or right downwind. My mind did the dyslexia thing and I said left, since I was left of the centerline. It was my first, and only, “I need you to call the tower after you park. “ At the end of the day, the controller was gracious to me. The call was educational. Since I didn’t cause any deviation to other aircraft in the airdrome, I wasn’t reported.
You would think that any report of a ground collision would justify stopping EVERYTHING until who hit whom and who was damaged in what fashion would be an automatic no-brainer.
Stop everyone and figure it out FIRST.
This is especially important because besides for the aircraft involved in the collision, the aircraft that is taxiing could be shedding damaged components on the pavement. These damaged components could then be ingested into another aircraft's engines.
@@Eternal_Tech Indeed.
by the time the controller got it into his thick American skull what had happened Ita was already passed off to tower and had takeoff clearance.
Tower probably assumed they'd already had been alerted by ground and checked for damage, as that'd have been the logical and reasonable thing to do. Tower controller won't be monitoring ground frequencies after all.
So yes, ground controller f*cked up massively and should be investigated, lessons need to be learned here. Not saying the controller should be fired, but at the very least needs some refresher training.
For reference, the Air France plane is still sitting on the ground at JFK six days later. The ITA plane continued its flights to Rome as scheduled. The ITA plane, meanwhile, spent around two days on the ground in Rome, and then reentered service. per About One Mile at a Time website
Well we know you’re full of 💩 for saying the “Air France plane is still sitting on the ground at JFK six days later” 😂because this happened almost a year ago not 6 days ago. Nice try though
A story my dad told me back in the day, was he landed at a big airport in his single engine bush plane, and while trying to taxi off the runway to a parking area, turned onto an active runway that had a passenger jet in final approach. The tower yelled at him to exit the runway, and my dad just drove off into the grass. It's a bush plane, it can handle it.
He got quite the talking to, but was commended for his quick actions exiting the runway. If he had dithered around, the passenger jet would have hit him (it was very close). And i mean close as his aircraft almost flipped over from the turbulence of the landing jet.
@Jerone Thiel - that was CLOSE.
@@sheilam4964 Oh yeah. They had to send a pickup truck out to him. He was so shaken up, he was afraid to move. And yes, even though this was before cell phones, he had to go and have a talk with the man. ^-^
Luckily, he got to keep his license, and never made a mistake like that again.
Although having been a bush pilot, he had some pretty good stories.
@@jeromethiel4323 - bush pilots have some of the most unbelievable stories but this one may have been his scariest.
The biggest thing I learned in aviation, working as a mechanic, is to own up to your mistakes since everyone is bound to screw up someday. Now that I'm not working in aviation, but still as a mechanic, I notice that something so obvious, like saying "I made a mistake" is so hard for people, that they put 10x more effort into hiding it than owning up to it. Even if in reality nothing bad happened. That really, really bothers me, since I'm so used to aviation where if you make a mistake, you take responsibility of it, and if you can't, you don't belong there.
Don't get me wrong, I don't go announcing my mistakes on a PA system, but I try to fix it myself, if I can't / don't know how, I ask for help and explain what happened. If it's serious, I mention it to my superior and in paperwork. I don't hide them with a piece of ducktape and zip ties and claim "nothing to see here, please disperse".
It comes with maturity, i think. When I first started my professional career, I avoided fessing up when I made a mistake, which considering I'm not in a safety critical role, happened a lot when I was first getting started.
Now if it happens, I have the attitude of "I messed up, I'll work on a solution and come up with a process to mitigate reoccurrence'
When I worked in aviation. I worked around the kid's out of college. These kid's do not take responsibility for their actions.
People who take responsibility for their actions show maturity.
Just because someone is over 18 or 21. Does not make them an adult. To be politically correct, they are Young Adults. Their mind's have not developed to maturity, yet. That doesn't happen until after the age of 32.
I am aghast at the way the JFK ground controller is responding to the clear and distinct message being conveyed in plane English by the Air France pilot. It is just unfathomable how he is unable to understand the gravity of what the pilot is trying to convey. By the time the message got across, the plane had already taken off. Not sure if this was investigated by NTSB and if so, it must surely have been critical of how the controller handled the situation.
@@hayleyxyz If so, it feels like most people never really mature. There's no small enough mistake that they could own up to. And if they cannot hide it away, they will start vehemently attacking and insulting people who notices it and calls it out, no matter how constructively and cordially they do it.
Similar with programming. If you make a mistake, you tell. If you see something weird, you ask or correct.
But within a scientific environment, I noticed that they did not want to tell anything, if the outcome was unexpected.
The controller simply is a jerk, he's not confused.
He's a New Yorker, wouldn't expect anything less.
Seems like he does not want to be bothered.
I'm a private pilot and I stopped flying due to my risk assessment of Aviation being far too complex for me to handle. Many people dont realize how easy it is to mess up as a pilot and it scares the living hell out of me to have another possible pilot deviation. I have had a pilot deviation once for runway incursion (taxiing onto an active runway while a Hawaiian 717 was on final) and the FAA did an investigation but eventually did not fault me and let me go, however that day changed me forever. Anyone in Aviation is required to be absolutely sharp 24/7 and anything can happen at any moment and your life or career can be gone just like that.
Kelly, great message and I totally agree with you. .....even though you stopped flying I bet you still look up at any planes flying by....!
Kelly, you sound like you have the self-awareness that is an excellent quality in any aviator. That being said, I guess that means we have to trust your judgement that you are better off not flying! But I think it's a shame that pilots like you feel like you need to ground yourself, while GA is absolutely teeming with dangerously irresponsible and/or oblivious yahoos. 😢
Aviation complex? COME ON MAN!!!! Did you only fly in Class B (TCA's for us old's) Cause if there is one thing complex in Aviation, that is it. Everything else is nuthin.
George’s aviation? I did some of my private pilot out in PHNL. Learning private pilot stuff at a Class B was definitely a struggle and extremely stressful
@Brian Beard
Did you also walk in the snow uphill both ways to aviation school?
My older son is a Captain for American. He told me a story of when he was student pilot that here in the US that there was a student from India and the controller who was a southerner and their conversations were difficult.
Love your content ‼️✈️✈️✈️
Not aviation, but accent related. A multilingual colleague (Dutch-English-French, French primary) was struggling with a caller asking them to speak English. Asked me if I could help, because the caller apparently said he was speaking English. Got on the phone. Couldn't understand him at first, but two full sentences in, it clicked. Very, very thick Scots accent.
I once flew into an indian airport and they told me they had a number to call, but when I called I was told I'll be paying 10,000 dollars to stay out of jail for failing to pay my taxes in 2012 and then I got transferred to another guy who said I need to make a moneygram payment and the govt of india would give me 1 million to finance a new plane.
Jai Modi ! LOLOLOL andhbhakts. @@neglectfulsausage7689
There's something that needs to be added: the controller confusion could be explained by the rebranding of Alitalia to ITA Airways. In fact, at that time (and now as well) Alitalia didn't exist anymore, but that plane was still in the Alitalia livery, so that's why the Air France crew claimed to see an "Alitalia" while the ATC didn't expect any "Alitalia" to be around.
Exactly. I'd guess this is the most likely source of the confusion. Air France kept calling them "Alitalia," but there were no Alitalia aircraft at JFK because Alitalia didn't exist. Once AF called the tower, then one of the controllers who had been around longer probably realized what was going on and that AF actually meant ITA. It will certainly be interesting to hear what the NTSB found out whenever they issue their final report.
Seems like Alitalia did not take this very seriously. Taking a big risk not investigating or turning around. Great recap as usual Kelsey!
Nor the air traffic controller. He was talking like he couldn't care less.
I agree with John Roussel. Alitalia answered they were fine immediately. How could they know for sure without investigation? If I was a passenger on that plane, I would want the pilots to take all precautions.
@@Maggie-tr2kd Imagine being a passenger, witnessing the collision, then seeing the plane proceed to takeoff. I would be screaming!
Everyone is ATC or Pilot which is false ????
@jessypanerselvam
Kelsey, I've been watching your channel for a while. You're a really sharp person. I'm thankful that you chose to be a pilot. Your intelligence and focus comes across in your videos. Massive respect for you sir.
And your leadership. I've heard more good leadership advice on this channel than in all "leadership" classes I've ever been through. If you ever have to take off your wings, you should seriously look into teaching crew resource management and leadership theory!
Kelsey strikes me as a good guy, but :constructive criticism alert: he has the tendency to beat a dead horse. Five minutes of dialog devoted to the fact that accents sound different is a bit much. At most, thirty seconds is all that's needed to get the point across - Kelsey will take five minutes. It makes me think that he's stretching to make some kind of duration threshold on his videos. This whole story could've been covered adequately in under four minutes. It's why I don't watch his videos very often.
This is a completely unacceptable event. If the damage to the ITA aircraft had been more severe the delay by ground to relay the message could have resulted in a crash which would otherwise have been prevented. Furthermore the ITA Captain who flew a damaged aircraft after being told he hit something is equally irresponsible given that he then flew his aircraft over the ocean. This really should be a bigger learning experience.
Delay was because ATC was confused. Alitalia literally doesn't exist.
The ATC referred to the aircraft as Alitalia so there was clearly no confusion. The brand has changed to ATI.
@@sithabelamandlawenkosiwodu6298 That doesn't change the fact the Italian captain choose to take of without investigating if the could have hit something...
@@BilldalSWE he assumed he hit a bump or light on the tarmac.
@@sithabelamandlawenkosiwodu6298 Yes, and that's fine. UNTIL someone specifically tells you you might have hit another plane... Then you should connect the dots.
I am Italian, went through UPT in the States, lived there 1.5 years, did a tour with the RAF, lived there for three years, worked for an English speaking company for the last 15 years: my English is pretty decent, I obviously still have an accent, not heavy but I do. In the US it is always the same story, has been for 30 years now, as soon as they hear an accent “say again” they assume you said something wrong or unintelligible. You say the some thing with the same accent and they understand. This happens with ATC or at the pub or at 7/11 in the Us, all the time; to me and everybody I have been there with. So this guy has obviously an accent but what he says is quite clear, he suggests to stop Alitalia (which doesn’t exist anymore btw) departure several times. So don’t blame the accent, if you work in an International airport there are hundreds of them and you need to be able to deal with them, it is not the pub or 7/11 ! The JFK guy is a disgrace to the good FAA controllers.
Give the JFK guy a break. He was hungover at the time. 😁
@@CallieMasters5000 Seemed as if he was still under the influence. Society no longer hires anyone based on merit, it is now showing up throughout the country in all kinds of positions. I never cared about who was doing the job, just as long as they were competent. The idea that the pilot from France asked the controller multiple times to stop the flight from take off , seems like it should be unacceptable behavior from the controller. What would people say in the comments if that plane crashed on takeoff??
Italian in the RAF in the US? What?
I can only speculate, but I suspect what you're experiencing is people unprepared to process an unfamiliar accent. When they ask you to repeat, they're resetting their mental state to dedicate more brain power to handling the accent, and everything works fine at that point.
@@j.sarnak1391 "Society no longer hires anyone based on merit" - ??
As an Infantry training NCO many years ago during the Vietnam war ...one major point I always said; everybody has a bad day or moment where they screw up...STOP ... quickly think about what you did and take what ever action you need to make it right... somebody's life may depend on it. As I've posted before, my father was a pilot and he was a fun loving type guy...next to his private plane ... he was a detail freak inspecting everything... and he flew after he retired everywhere in the USA ... great post Kelly... "Later Mate"
I thought the Air France guys repeatedly did the right thing. You don’t want a fellow aviator crew to go with a compromised jet. While they may be competitors they also have a great industry ethos of helping out your fellow aviators.
But they were not hit so what was the call about?
@@robertsears8323 There is an NTSB investigation with the number DCA22LA135 for this incident with pictures. The elevator of the Air France was cracked due to impact and the plane has to be grounded for multiple day. So it is a serious one. You're posting this bullshit "there was no hit". You're wrong and probably ethnically discriminatory basing your decisions purely on your ethnic stereotypes. Cut the dogshit.
@@robertsears8323 They were hit and both planes were damaged ("substantial damage to the right-hand elevator" for the Air France, "scratches on the left winglet" for the ITA)
Honestly, I think that when it became clear that Ground just wasn't getting it, the guy in the other seat should have tuned in tower and made an emergency call to stop Alitalia takeoffs until they can get this sorted out. Is it technically proper procedure? No. But it would have guaranteed that the damaged aircraft didn't take off before Ground got his act together.
Air France probably didn't have the confidence in his English skills to do this, but I think he'd be justified in going into slow, loud, and clear mode, and saying something like, "JFK Ground, DO NOT LET ANY ALITALIA PLANES TAKE OFF. Their aircraft may be DAMAGED. This is Air France 008."
The reason the controller asked if Air France was sure it was Alitalia is that Alitalia had recently ceased operations. The actual airline involved was ITA. Surprising the controller didn't pick up on that, though.
Probably, they said Alitalia because the aircraft had the old livery yet..
@@cristianb.4135 Probably, although if the controller wasn't aware of the connection between Alitalia and ITA (or it simply didn't click), he would be thinking about callsigns rather than livery.
@@alexmiller7721 either way it was a bad call
Not an excuse 😂
If he had said Phantom 309 I would understand the confusion.
Get off my runway! 😂.. damn that hurts man.
But effective
This level of incompetence is right out of _Atlas Shrugged_.
Another great episode. I'm just glad everything went well for both Air planes and hopefully another lesson was learned by all. Be safe up there Kelsey 👨✈️✈️✈️
I've been in the RFS (Rural Fire Service) as a volunteer firefighter and comms officer, and we have a similar attitude toward mistakes. If you make a mistake, just keep moving forward, which can include a correction when on the radio, such as giving the correct address (or in my case, I had the right street, wrong suburb, it was the suburb next to the one I said), and continue with the rest of the incident. When the incident is complete is the time to reflect and debrief on any mistake/s made during that call or incident. It's always easier to own up to it. We had a no blame policy. If you screw up and own it, then all good, you learn for next time, and no one will hold it against you, in fact owning up may even expose a flaw in the procedures or training that needs to be rectified or clarified.
Kelsey - I admire and respect your judgment aloft and on the ground. You are so obviously a fantastic pilot at the very top of your profession. Be safe. You're always in my prayers for a safe journey.
I'm a musician, and same rule applies while performing. If you make a mistake, you must ignore it, otherwise you'll make a lot more mistakes and really humiliate yourself.
Im not in the airline biz and find the radio comms a bit fast paced, so it is surprising this atc person is taking so long to grasp what is being asked.
The ATC person was obtuse. Even with the accent, it was clear what the AF pilot was saying. ATC was carrying on about all the wrong things. It's a freaking miracle the Alitalia aircraft didn't have any damage/suffer an emergency over the North Atlantic.
So to me it sounds as if the air controller was either intoxicated or distracted otherwise and this incident should have automatically started of an investigation process. The background whoop sounds are clearly indicating they had some kind of party going on in the tower. So either intoxicated or distracted from partying during work time. Both a big no no.
He picked the wrong day to stop sniffing glue.
12:21 "get off my runway" Very professional...
I mean... He did build the entire thing with his own money, so 🤷🏾♂️
You own your mistakes and take responsibility whilst showing how important it is to do so, its impacts and how to deal with it the right way.
Not only for pilots but for every other profession AND in personal life.
Thank you!
This controller seems to want the Alitalia to take off. It’s weird. Like he doesn’t want this to be his problem.
I wondered that as well. Like he was stalling for time by acting dumb 🙄
@74gear This was ITA Airways not Alitalia as at the time of the incident Alitalia was no longer around.... Max it could have been an ITA Airways plane still using the Alitalia livery
Man I remember the newbie mistakes I've made as a student pilot, with my instructor it's not too bad because he's there to walk me through what happened and get me to take a few seconds to regain my bearings. But the first time I made a mistake during a solo lesson I could feel my face get flushed and my back was sweating while talking to the controller, thankfully the controllers at the airport I trained out of had very understanding controllers since there were several flight schools based there. But after that I learned very quickly you can't let one mistake worry you for the rest of the flight, you just have to learn from it and move on with your flight.
Great video, Kelsey; and you're getting so good with your schematics and airport layouts. Cheers from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
JFK controller was probably confused because Alitalia went bankrupt and ceased operations almost a year before the collision took place. The Air France pilot meant to say ITA Airways.
The planes are still using Alitalia livery until they will be repainted.
It's not everyday you hear an aircraft hit another one.
Thank god.
It's like a fist bump
It's worse when it's in the air.
Honestly it’s not often you hear airliners in a collision but ga unfortunately is pretty much every day
I wonder what their collision deductible is. 😂
If Alitalia had suffered critical damage that caused a malfunction at takoff it would have certainly led to a serious investigation and likely some changes to controller procedure going forwards. It appears that it was only pure luck that this indident didn't result in something much more serious, but it could have easily been avoided entirely with improved communication. Will the FAA be looking into these events and recommending changes with the same rigorousness as they would if there had been a loss of life?
By the time Air France reported this, the ITA (not Alitalia) aircraft was already receiving their takeoff clearance. It was not reported immediately, but rather quite a while later. I'd guess that the AF pilots didn't realize what had happened immediately and figured it out after contact with ramp crew or after disembarking and looking at it themselves, though I'm not sure what the reason for the delayed report was. The NTSB report will hopefully address that when it comes out. The delayed reporting combined with the wrong airline name is most likely what let to Ground's confusion. There were no Alitalia aircraft at JFK at the time of the accident. Because Alitalia had not existed for about 8 months at that time. Some of the ITA aircraft were still in Alitalia livery, though, which may have been why Air France called them that. Or they might have just done it out of habit. It's worth noting that the Alitalia -> ITA change happened around the time that trans-Atlantic travel was first starting to open back up somewhat and the accident occurred during the first busy trans-Atlantic travel season since the Covid shutdowns. While this is speculation on my part, I would not be surprised if the timing of the change also contributed to the Air France pilot's use of the wrong name, the controller's failure to recognize what he meant, or both.
I would be terrified if I were on a plane that hit another plane, and then we were about to take off without an inspection for damage.
I’m surprised the passengers didn’t report anything to the crew
i would've muttered "humph! how rude!" 🙂
I doubt any regular passenger would understand the potential risks of a "minor bump". I wouldn't either.
Passengers who don't feel anything don't have anything to report. We know by now both planes 'feel' it, when they hit eachother. The fact that the Alitalia flight went on without problems and was checked and no damage was found, says the AirFrancecrew maybe had the wrong judgement about being hit.
If this was a daytime flight then anyone looking out the window would have seen the collision. I would have reported it. However, at night it might have been difficult to see.
@@Dirk-van-den-Berg The NTSB reports the Air France "received substantial damage to the right-hand elevator"
That Jet It recording gets better after the point where you stopped. The pilot just went ahead and went back into the ramp without taxi clearance. He was told to get off the runway at K1, no further taxi instructions. So when the controller tells the pilot he has a number to copy because of a possible deviation, you can hear another controller in the background yell "two! TWO!"
Thats reminds me about 20 years ago in Vancouver Canada of a MY 330 that clipped a Dash 8 tail waiting for take off with their winglet. They didn't notice it and the dash 8 crew thought the movement was from being bounced around as it was a windy day but went back to the gate after being informed about it. There ended up being a 1 x 3 foot section of the tail missing and it was found on the taxiiway. The 330 went back to the gate as well and maintenance removed the winglet so they could continue on to the UK.
Another interesting video. Thankyou! I like the natural way you explain it, like you are just talking, not overly scripted. And I loved the images too. And the French accent 😃
As a pilot here in the US for one of the “Big Three”, this video, and the comms from the controller, and subsequent takeoff of Alitalia…WTAF!
“Hey tower, AirFrance is saying Alitalia hit them. Stop all Alitalia takeoffs until we figure this out. I’m having the AirFrance pilot call us right now.”
Yes, that incompetence was difficult to listen to. I think that controller should have gotten at least a two week suspension for that with a refresher course on accents. CFIAM JOE COVINO Lake Havasu Arizona.
Best pilot on TH-cam ❤
Yeah I agree
Mentour Pilot has entered the chat
Joshua Beardamore mills.
I like that Dutch lady pilot.
Have you seen her.
@@wesss9353 airforceproud95 has also entered the chat
@@sopcannon maybe 2 years ago... Not funny videos much anymore.
I'll alt+F4 and see you on the other side
"Did you experience any damage" Well of course they are going to say no, since they don't know they did, or else they wouldn't have taken off! How is this ATC so ignorant?
“Yeah, at some point we noticed that our wingtip went missing, but didn’t think much of it. Do you think it’s related?”
I was furious, so God knows how that Air France captain must have been feeling!
Having worked with people from different countries the primary thing many get wrong with their accents is that when asked to repeat themselves they don't slow down. Even when asked to slow down they'll speak in their super thick accents at breakneck speed and nobody can understand. All they have to do is slow down and they're fully comprehensible.
Agreed
Exactly. The Air France pilot was semi-unintelligible, and it never got any better.
The air traffic controller should have taken control of their air space and told ITA to return to the field for possible damage instead of asking them if they hit anything. If ITA crashed, I doubt the contributing cause would be about accents and speed talking.
Reminds me of an incident that happened many years ago: I was a passenger along 4 others plus the pilot (who shall remain nameless) on a Cessna Turbo Stationair when we stopped at Kingman Airport in Arizona for fuel. When we pulled away, the pilot made a hard right turn and the left tip of the stabilizer hit and bounced off a pole next to the fueling station. As we taxied toward the runway, I politely told the pilot that I was pretty sure the tail had hit a pole. He insisted that we hadn't, and I wasn't able to convince him to stop and inspect the horizontal stabilizer (in retrospect, I was too polite and should have insistent that he stop, but his confidence that nothing had happened made me doubt myself). He proceeded to take off, and part of me thought that the tail had gotten structurally compromised and that we might crash. Needless to say, it was a frightening flight, made even worse by the fact that the fuel gauges were bouncing on empty several minutes before we got to our Palo Alto destination, with one of the gauges pegging on empty shortly before landing (I brought the low fuel readings to the pilots attention, but he responded that airplane fuel gauges are notoriously unreliable and was confident in his fuel burn calculations and said we should have plenty of fuel). Once we landed, I inspected horizontal stabilizer tip and found it scratched and with paint from pole scraped onto it. When I showed this to the pilot, his face turned white a ghost. Needless to say, I never flew with him again and warned the mutual friend who had originally introduced me to the pilot to never fly with hime (the pilot had 600 hours of flying time at the time so not sure how he made it that far with such a lax safety attitude, but hopefully he had learned a good lesson).
What was so hard to understand? Stop the Air Atalia plane from departing. For that plane to continue its flight was very concerning to say the least.
The new graphics are great. Kudos to you and your assistant(s) who put these together Kelsey.
The French accented English of AF008 is definitely French to me as a person from the Netherlands! Haha
Kennedy Steve is funny as hell
Kennedy Steve probably would have caught the issue quicker than that particular controller, too. his wit was definitely matched by his skills.
Congratulations on one MILLION SUBSCRIBERS!!! I'm so happy for you!!
I work in a call center that takes a lot of foreign callers speaking english. Each person struggles with different accents. I wonder if anyone has studied that. I think its fascinating.
Oh JFK... I used to work there with PAPD and HSI when they had the WTC debris in the hangars there. Those controllers are unbelievable, nearly inconceivably aware. I got a tour once, and from my perspective, it was [marginally] controlled chaos. I couldn't imagine. They still used paper progress strips, though I'm not entirely certain if the EFS/TDFM system has been implemented there yet. The controllers there are among the absolute best in the business. Thanks for the video Kelsey.
Sounds to me as if they are the absolutely worst in the business judging by this video.
@@Taladar2003 they're NY'ers, they're all jitbags!
@@Taladar2003 They have certainly perfected the technique of working 6 hrs and getting paid for 8.
I've never managed that in 54+ yrs of working.
@@Taladar2003 I have done a little bit of flying, and I agree with davec that ATC controllers are "unbelievable, nearly inconceivably aware". But in this video, the controller does not do very well at all.
thank you for taking the time to make all this understandable to us . . . may God keep you and all who you fly sfe . . .
Kelsey, you could do a video of that airplane hitting a dumpster that blew onto the runway at LAX a few years ago. It'd be interesting to hear your take. Cheers! 👍
Great advice on 'fighting through' errors. We teach advanced life support. Typically doctors, typically those working in emergency medicine, ICU etc. When we test participants, it's common to see some people (when they've veered off the correct sequence or procedure) to stop and look at us and say something like:'I've stuffed up, can I start again?'
I usually reply with something like :'You can't time travel so just take a breath, fix it and carry on.'
For most procedural things we do, minor variations on sequence or technique are irrelevant to the over-all goal of keeping some alive or resuscitating them. There are some big 'no-nos' and some things MUST be completed in order (like checking the scene for danger or calling for help) but as examiners I look at outcome versus process (unless the test is a test on process).
I find the drive for perfection amongst healthcare professionals so strong, it can be detrimental when people deviate from their own internal expectation of 100% success, 100% of the time. It can create undesirable levels of angst which is wasted brain bandwidth that could be used more productively.
I'd rather people demonstrate an ability to recognise they've erred, deal with it, fix the problem and 'fight on through', then at the conclusion, be able to articulate how they solved their problem. I think people feel more accomplishment by doing that than be given a 'reset button' which unfortunately doesn't occur real world.
I can’t help but feel that Kennedy Steve would have been all over this incident like a rash, after the very first call.
The vocabulary of aviation communication is so standardized and simple. I foresee a future when a computer algorithm has been trained enough to ensure a high degree of translation accuracy and then incorporated into the FAA Next Gen Radio and Data Communications strategy. The speaker will use their native tongue. And the ear at the other end will have their radio set to hear it in their preferred language. Forcing everyone to speak English when technology exist that provides real time translation is like using a hammer to insert a screw when there's a screwdriver at your disposal.
This is a clear case where an ounce of miscommunication prevention is worth a pound of EPIRB cure.
I'd have every french translation sounding like Mélanie Laurent.
ChatGPT could have done a better job than that ground controller.
That JFK controller was really frustrating me 🤦🏾♂️😡
I’m absolutely amazed that the watch supervisor didn’t get straight on the conversation?
Back in 1980 I was in San Francisco catching a connection to Monterey, CA. A new commuter airline, Golden Gate Airlines, in a Convair 580 prop plane. It was sweltering in the afternoon sun without A/C as we were getting pushed back. The single Stewardess was at the front starting her spiel when suddenly there was a loud Bang and we made an immediate halt. The tug had pushed us back too close to another aircraft and our wings collided. The worst was the Stewardess took a header about six rows down the aisle, dislocated an elbow and scraped the heck out of both knees. What a mess! It was four more hours before they could get us on another flight to MRY. It seems GGA didn't last long - went out of business in '81 or '82.
Air France pilot - patience of a saint! That controller!!! Good thing Alitalia didn't disintegrate over the ocean because even the call he made to them hardly conveyed the potential seriousness of the situation. I do get the issue with accents for some people - when I first travelled with my friend she could NOT understand the Aussies and Kiwis - I had to translate. Maybe because my Mum was British, so my ears were more attuned? No idea.
I am really curious as to the pilot of the second clip. I kind of got the impression he was not as alert and aware as I would prefer my pilots to be. I would almost interpret the sequence of events that when the ground controller gave him the runway assignment, the pilot thought it included takeoff clearance.
Would it not be pertinent to give a hold short instruction? He just said RWY 5R shortened, taxi via K1.
@@mikhailswartz The ground controller could have given him a hold short instruction, but I would think that usually, ground gets them heading toward the runway and then hands them off to the tower controller, who provides the actual clearance to enter the runway and begin the takeoff roll. Regardless, if the pilot didn't hear a specific command to enter the runway, they should assume they are not cleared to enter.
Imagine the law suit if something happened to the Italian plane because the tower seemed slow to react.
I’m from Essex in the UK and some would say we have a somewhat distinct accent 😂 when I used to work in a control room I had a very specific ‘work voice’ so people would have no problem understanding me, which was regularly mistaken for Australian for some reason!
Fellow Brit here - I wouldn't say the average Essex accent is that difficult to understand 😄. I feel like some people just like to be difficult...
Great comparisent to F1! As a Formula 1 fan it's crazy how sometimes a slight touch can make a small explosion of carbon fibre, thinking the same thing could happen to an aircraft is chilling
Same. As soon as he mentioned an F1 car, it immediately made sense to me how an airplane could be so vulnerable to a slight impact 😄
That mistake thing is true. My first attempt at my driving test. I clipped a curb with my back wheel going onto a roundabout. It was nothing major but I thought it was an instant failure. So I messed up something else in the test and failed. Had I not fixated on that smaller earlier mistake and got flustered by it, he was gonna pass me.
That ground controller was infuriating to listen to. Thank God nothing happened but can you imagine if the damage had cause a serious incident that would've been completely avoidable if the controller hadn't been so annoyed that he was missing his coworker's party or whatever it was that was going on there?
He was either drunk or exhausted to the point where he shouldn't have been in that tower.
Keep the blue side up.
Love your content Kelsey!! Have a great day! 🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻
The incredulity of "You're on the runway!" or " Get off MY runway!" It cracked me up. 😂
I've often wondered what I should do as a passenger if I noticed that the wingtip lightly struck another plane or if there was ice/snow on the wings yet we still lined up for takeoff. What is the best way of raising the alarm? While I am not an airline pilot, I know enough to know that we should not be taking off if the plane is damaged. But, I also don't want to be labeled as the lunatic who freaked out because a certain amount of ice/snow was on the wings. Thoughts?
Rise and go talk with a flight attendant to make them aware of the problem/wshiw them what you saw? I mean, if you’re not seated the cabin crew will warn the pilot that they can’t take off right now because an Idiot Passenger just left their seat, so if there’s any actual danger then the plane won’t get airborne while you try to get someone’s attention by less drastic means. (On the other hand, if what you saw was an optical illusion, er, maybe your fellow passengers might hate you forever for making them late?)
(which is a very long way to say ”good question, I’ve no idea but would be intersted in knowing this, too”)
Press and reset your call button repeatedly. Cabin crew/flight attendants know that that means something is urgent or an emergency. If they don't respond, get up and go tell them as Cecily B suggested. It's better to be safe than sorry, and as former cabin crew, I would be grateful to the passenger alerting me to something potentially dangerous.
If you witness a wing tip hit something stand up and do not sit down! Make it know what has happened and they must not take off.
The message at the end of not mulling over a mistake you already made is important when driving as well. When I was a newer driver I've definitely been guilty of a few instances where I misjudged the speed of approaching cars when getting on a freeway on-ramp, merged incorrectly, then lost my confidence and ended up making an even more serious mistake that even led to evasive action. Nowadays I'm more confident and seem to be better able to compartmentalize these mistakes. It helps to remember that unlike this airport situation, everyone who saw the incident will be far gone within a minute (and if you don't have someone else in the car criticizing you).
That controller sounds like a genius. He also sounds kind of stoned.
Another great video from one of our favourite pilots! Soon flying to Iceland, so I need some positive input ….😊
How did no passengers see this? I'm always staring out the window when I'm on the ground
it's also possible that actually the passengers of air france thought they saw a hit but in fact there wasn't one.
Because nothing happened.
The Air France passengers would have seen nothing because the damage was to the rear of the aircraft. The Ita Air passengers, maybe they saw something and told a flight attendant after takeoff, but remember that this would have been during their cabin safety demonstration so they were supposed to be looking at the cabin crew, not out the windows.
And I've seen cabin crew REALLY chewing out passengers for not paying proper attention to that, for just looking away for a second. I always at least pretend to pay attention, even if I've heard it a hundred times before on that same aircraft type and airline.
Maybe they all had their faces buried in their phones as usual
@@robertsears8323 Try reading NTSB accident report DCA22LA135 before spewing further lies.
The other side of the equation is, ive flown commercial aircraft with a hole in the slat (AF C-9), and a wingtip shaved off by a fuel truck (MD-88, DCA).
The reason for the phone call was to keep it off tape. But Alitalia should NEVER have been allowed to take off w/o knowing the extent of damage.
An Aeromexico plane hit a Delta plane at Terminal 2 of Mexico City International Airport a few weeks ago. The damage was substantial.
Yeah, there was a week in which there were at least 3 different ground collisions. That one, two EVA aircraft hitting each other in Taiwan, and at least one more that I don't recall the details of off the top of my head.
Definitely gotta be frustrating at the Air France pilot
I love this channel so much. I hate flying but I'm working on it:) Thank you Mr. Kelsey.
Hang in there. Flying is fun. I started at 20. In 1973. Its never too late. My mom's last flight was in 2012 at age 83. She began at 20 also in 1950.
One problem might be that AirFrance identified the aircraft as "Alitalia", which was no longer in operation. The aircraft was ITA airways ("Itarrow"). This error likely caused a delay as the controller could not find any Alitalia under his control, and since the aircraft had taken off, ground could not communicate with it.
I've made the same observation, however the plane was still in Alitalia livery. Understandable, but yeah, another source of confusion.
I once had a ground crew nearly bang our wingtip into that of a parked aircraft while being tugged to a remote auxiliary ramp. We were aboard to "guard the brakes", and it almost happened on the copilot's side. He saved the day by yelling "Brakes!" and we halted less than a foot from impact. This was a major airport with an experienced tug crew, which may have added to our being somewhat more confident in this routine procedure than we should have been. (But, of course, they had us in the cockpit for a reason!)
I was a marshaller & wing Waller to make sure planes did not hit anything while parking. They need them maybe more often.
Especially on turns.
The clear and detailed way you explain everything is exactly why I subscribe. Plus your dry sense of humour. Thanks Kelsey ☺️
In my opinion, we still don't know if it was mistake on ITA side or Air France not having parked correctly (maybe docking station issues) (you know maybe combination of issues), what is more worrying without knowing facts is the response from controller, way too much time to get it sorted, that A330 from ITA should have been stopped way before it was ready to TO on the runway, luckily nothing major happened, way too close for comfort.
doesnt matter, the fact is they all risked passengers lives that day. all three should lose their jobs. atc for barely doing their job, air france for having a pilot who cannot communicate, and ITA for incompetence
@@Blyter7 I think air france communicated good enough to be understood, ITA might have not seen his mistake, which is a mistake but the controller was sleeping, come on man, if someone tells you 2 aircraft collided stop take off/taxi clearences, but for sure Air France’s crews has no faults in this, they communicated what needed to be said.
The incident took place in darkness on June 17 last year, with the Air France 777 waiting for a tractor tow to Terminal 1. The ITA A330 passed behind the 777 as the tractor arrived, causing the crew of the 777 to feel the aircraft move but remain unaware of the passing A330. Ground personnel later discovered substantial damage to the 777's right-hand elevator caused by the A330's left-hand winglet.
I was an employee for a rental car company years ago near YYZ and driving vehicles all day long to the terminals I’ve seen so many planes pull up the last second as they were landing. Sometimes just a few hundred feet above ground.
Sounds like the damage buffed out just fine on the Alitalia!
The gorgeous man who comes to tune my piano is French and I’m sure I get it tuned and serviced far more than it needs, yep. Love the French accent. 🌈🦘also loved Kelsey’s attempt at the French accent. Well done Kelsey.
seems like a huge risk to continue the flight and not returning to inspect the aircraft
@74Gear There is an NTSB investigation with the number DCA22LA135 for this incident with pictures. The elevator of the Air France was cracked due to impact and the plane had to be grounded for multiple days. ITA Airways plane had minor scratches on the wingtip.
That just reinforces how serious this was. Alitalia/ITA was really lucky. Not a great way to start a flight across an ocean!
It really sounded like the JFK Ground controller was caught off-guard by the Air France call and had no idea how to proceed from there. He had his preconceived notion of how the next few minutes would proceed, based on his situational awareness, and the interruption of that routine by Air France threw him for a loop. A human response, to be sure, but one you'd hope a JFK controller would be trained to overcome.