The Riddle of the Hathaway: which was first?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ค. 2024
- In this video, we look at the USS Hathaway, a starship introduced in the 'Star Trek: the Next Generation' episode 'Peak Performance'. The Hathaway presents us with a puzzle, and here we attempt to solve it in-universe.
Music: NoMBe, 'Zodiac Structures' (TH-cam Music Library).
#StarTrek #culture - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
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There I was, making an attempt to recreate an Ambassador-class starship, when I found myself thinking about the Constellation-class. So I switched over and got a bit carried away. I wasn't going to recreate the bridge, but I did. Then, at the last minute, I added the warp core. I am rather pleased with the result.
I would say liminal space is also a factor when trying to make an abandoned ship creepy. Basically, the Back Rooms in space.
You make a good point. The creepiness of the Back Rooms is fascinating, and also those abandoned locations channels here on TH-cam, such as The Proper People.
That is a good idea for a great story .A hunted dimensionally challenged starship trapped in a anomaly that randomly shifts all the space in the ship threw alternate reality's and liminal space every room is its own strange pocket were anything can happen .
Don't forget the first USS Constellation was a Constitution class ship in TOS: "The Doomsday Machine."
Also, don't forget that FASA and early 1980s Star Trek novels considered the original Enterprise to be a "Constellation Class."
They did indeed, which is rather ironic.
I also like the Constellation class for the same reasons. More of a “get the job done” type and be as robust as possible. I’ve also long thought the class was an alternative to the Excelsior, both being designed and built for deeper range missions than the Constitution. Excelsior followed the general ideas of the Constitution, while the Constellation was pretty much an “off the shelf” type. With both, they chose to double up the warp coils or in other words, double up the nacelles with the one and double up the length of the nacelles on the other to accomplish this. Result, they could run at high warp longer prior to damage setting in. Later as Excelsior was still being developed, it got folded in with the transwarp project. Excelsior ultimately got the nod while the Constellation was found to still remain useful in full service for over 60 years given seeing The Victory was still in service by the 2360s, The Stargazer was still in service by 9 years prior to TNG. Sad thing is, they only seemed to have built only a small number of the ships, but used them for very long times.
I never noticed the discrepancy you pointed out in this video. 👍
One could also argue that the Constellation has been reregistered as part of either a draw down of older forces, or repurposing as a test bed or training ship, or even a combination of the two. A real world example would be the Battleship Mississippi which received the hull number AG-128 for her service testing weapons, but retained the name.
One possibility is, considering hints in beta-canon sources like STO which indicate that a TOS-era version of the Miranda class was operational, the Constellation class is actually older than we are shown there. Perhaps newer than the Constitution (explaining the name-reuse), but had undergone the same refit scheme as the Enterprise and Miranda class vessels. New bridge modules, nacelle and warp core, impulse assembly and removing the grey thermocoating from the hull. the NX1974 could be undergoing certification *post refit* rather than after construction. This might suggest that the Hathaway was a later manufacturing block.
I also enjoy the Constellation class, as well as your explanation that it was developed during the Excelsior / Transwarp drive era.
It could also be explained that 'The Constellation' was a test bed for a 4-Nacelle/Deep Range Explorer design (hence an NX designation) until someone came up with the concept of Trans-Warp & shelved her until the events of ST III proved the concept unfeasible leading to her eventually getting an NCC registry.
Interesting video as always BTW.
Love the buckaroo banzai refrence
I love to see a series where this class was the Hero Ship. Thanks for sharing!
I would, too.
I personally don't see it as looking like a warship, just more of a basic functional design.
Also, my thought on the time discrepancy is that there was some sort of issue that either cropped up requiring MAJOR refit, and thus another round of recertification trials after fixing the issue, or the original Hathaway was lost much sooner than most ships, but in such a way that Starfleet felt that the ship performed admirably/honorably and thus reused the name for a new build.
Yay, Where Silence Has Lease! Right with you on that one! A season highlight.
I know the ships in Black Hole and Alien aren’t exactly derelicts but they do have the creepy vibes of being mostly empty hulks
I've long suspected that the "Warp scale upgrade" either replaced Transwarp or IS Transwarp excluding the Beta Canon explanations of what Transwarp is, and going with only Alpha Canon I think that fits.
Besides the Enterprise A has the term Transwarp slapped all over it's display consoles too.
A simpler explanation might be that HOW the 4 Nacelle system is implemented it may have taken more time and they could even have but 2 warp cores in the Constellation originally until they figured out some of the tricks they didn't require it anymore (like Warp sustainer coasting methods or simply isolating 2 of the nacelles to cool and maintain them and then swapping them over again so the ship doesn't have to stop very often unlike a 2 nacelle ship.
That is likely similar to how the Early 3 Nacelle Nebulas work too they run the ship as a warp sustainer (so it's unable to accelerate just maintain it's current speed) and it can switch off and depower the main engines entirely.
Where as the Prometheus class has an entirely different trick which is to cut it's warp core in half and swap to just the power from the Beta or Delta hull's cores and it's pair of nacelles on each hull segment (at the cost of a slightly reduced top speed) also massively extending its range. and then it can go even faster still by brute forcing warp power from both main cores the one that crosses the Beta and Delta hulls and the one in the Alpha hull too.
Similarly if under fire the ship can feed the shield entirely from the Alpha Core's warp power and use the Beta/Delta core for main power or if it's feeling really creative even split the power into 3 systems and use the 3rd one for some other purpose like computer processing or a specialist effect from the main deflector (like opening a preexisting transwarp conduit or sending out a specialist beam effect) that could be pretty useful as it means firing such a weapon would wipe out your main power and lower the ships shields and render it unable to move accept at impulse.
Heck this is pure speculation but it may even be possible to shut the entire main power down in the Beta/Delta hulls and run the warp engines in sustainer mode off the Alpha core (all be limiting the top speed greatly and rendering the ship unable to accelerate to near it's top speed in that mode.
The reason I mention all this is I think the point of all these systems is to increase the ships range without having to power down the whole ship or stop to do so. It means the ship can travel for days not hours with no issues at all.
4 Nacelle designs make a lot of sense for long range cruising I feel.
I always wondered how the Ferengi got their hands on a federation starship( stargazer) and not only did nobody know about it, seemingly no one even looked for it.
Yes very possible Constellation was undergoing a RE-certification following a refit or overhaul.
Also possible that the Hathaway isn't a Constellation-class as built but was refitted to Constellation-class standards later in its life which is why the dedication plaque says "Constellation-class" and not something else.
Constellation was probably designed in the 2370s around the time of the Enterprise refit and excelsior shortly after however the registries just denote when the project began its likely both ships sat around in tests for 10+ years and probably waiting for the Constitution II to be retired.
The logic behind that is also that Nx classes tend to be a lower number then the first wave of ships, by the 2380/90s ships that were 2500 were being launched along with there nx counterparts
Another potential thing is that the Hathaway and Constellation were built simultaneously with testing variants, just that most of the ones on the Hathaway were the better option, meaning it didn't require as much time to bring up to standard specs
Well done! I love your models!!!
And I loved seeing a Constitution II class USS Stargazer!!!
My Blender skills are pretty rudimentary, but I like to think that I'm improving.
@@WeTravelbyNight Your Constitution II class remains one of the most beautiful renderings of the ship I have ever seen. Keep practicing and keep making videos! You're on the right path!
5:06 - well, looks like somebody missed the _Stargazer_ sitting at the Fleet Museum in several Picard Season 3 episodes...
Another reason in universe for the NX classification is that the Constellation my have been built before the Hathaway but never lost its NX designation because it was used as a tested bed for any new technology developed. This builds on the being a part of the Transwarp experiments you mentioned. We know from the USS Excelsior, that, starships can have the NX designation replaced with NCC. However, we also know that some ships never lose the NX designation, namely the USS Defiant from DS9. It's possible that the Constellation, being a relatively new design ship, became a test bed for any new tech starfleet came up with before fleet wide implementation. Though not officially sanction by Starfleet, the Defiant did have some tech that was tested that other Defiant class ships didn't have as standard, IE Ablative Armor.
I think this explanation nicely fits in universe and explains why the USS Constellation would still have its NX designation. She was a prototype, maybe started out involved in the Transwarp experiments, but then just continued to be a test bed for new technology for Starfleet
I always liked this bridge for some reason.
I've heard similar theories about the Constellation, only that she was an attempt to eek the last ounce of performance out of existing tech, hence the four war nacelles & double impulse decks, which I think I prefer the idea of. I feel like the systems on the Excelsior ought to be a little bit more complex & integrated than just sticking a new set of nacelles on! Instead, I'd propose these were both Transwarp prototypes from different design teams competing for the same specification. Excelisor won out, because it was more advanced as a ship, but because the Constellation used more conservative tech it must have seen a limited production run as well (although maybe it was quite limited, since we see the Excelsior class in widespread service whereas the Constellation seems to have been retired by the point of TNG). Constellation, being a prototype, may have indeed been the first launched but last accepted into service, since subsequent ships would probably have made improvements on her design in the process of production and in service experience. With those lessons learned, she would have needed a refit before entering service as the NCC-1974.
Yep. It all sounds great. You’ve got it right.
I'd say the solution is a lot simpler: they got the dates wrong. Similar to the Enterprise being "20 years old" when she was actually 40. Probably the design-phase was started in 2285. Which would fit well in the timeline.
Yes, but it can be fun to dream up in-universe solutions.
Oh yes, I'm not dimissing your theory. And I also agree... I rather find logical in-universe explanations, rather than sloppy writing :D *Looking at you Discovery@@WeTravelbyNight
"Peak Performance" was a silly episode that completely blows past the existence of the Holodeck just so they can work a Ferengi angle in at the end. I still like episode and many of the first two seasons of TNG for that matter.
Love the quote by Buckaroo Banzai!
Great video and your in universe explanation is far better than anything I could have come up with.
That's a very good and plausible explanation
Very useful. Love talking Trek.
Given the Constellation uses a modified Connie saucer it could have undergone a complete refit, like the Enterprise, so the launch date is of the new subtype and not the its initial launch class launch. The integration of tech later used on the Excelsior would also explain its longevity from the 2270s to the 2350s where newer designs like the Nebula and Niagra class would replace them for research and patrol regulating the surging active hulls to cargo haulers and other light duties.
Definitely your best video by far. I love how went into the design information.
I LOVE the style you use in this video. Well done
Thank you. I tried something a little different on this one and I am very pleased with it.
Your 3D rendering is gorgeous and fits so well with the space ambient music. The lighting at 5:34 is particularly beautiful. What software do you use?
Blender - on a small, cheap, under-powered laptop. My skills are pretty rudimentary, but Blender is a lot of fun. And the ambient music is excellent. I found it in the TH-cam Music Library.
I have always liked this design
I have a theory that four-nacelle ships are the oft-mentioned, never exemplified “deep space explorers.” Having two pairs of nacelles when two do quite nicely most of the time gives a measure of redundancy when you’re on a mission a long way from the nearest starbase…
Also, it would explain: why we see relatively few such designs (like the Cheyenne-class); why the Prometheus-class is for “deep space tactical assignments”; and, how come Picard went from being a lieutenant to Captain of the Stargazer in one fell swoop - if they were a long way from any replacement senior officers… Also, in “Timescape” he’s returning from a conference on the psychological effects of deep space exploration, suggesting he has some interest or exposure to the subject.
Starfleet can still launch a ship, but the certification testing can also be done after launch as part of a shakedown cruise before getting their first assignment. The Constellation might still be the first, its possible the certification testing took much more time than originally planned. One might suspect the quad nacelle design posed an tough engineering challenge to accomplish, warranting the need for an 'extended' certification testing. Meanwhile the Hathaway got her official launch but was not put in active service untill the Constellation was given the stamp of approval. Thats my head canon...
Works for me!
Also, its nice to find a piece of trivia about ST that's new to me, so double well done! 👍
This is an interesting problem, as are most issues that concern _Star Trek_ 's chronology. The idea of the _Constellation_ -class being an alternative warp experiment perhaps also explains the various _Excelsior_ -class study models in the background of the battle of Wolf 359. With some consideration of the evidence that leads to deriving dates, and their corresponding uncertainties, I expect this problem can be resolved.
*Age of the U.S.S. Hathaway*
I shall be assuming that the universal translator handles unit conversions and that Kolrami is speaking in _Earth_ years. Sirna Kolrami refers to _Hathaway_ as an "eighty-year old Starcruiser". It seems unlikely that he is referring only to age of the entire starship class, so that shall be discounted. Assuming Kolrami is not mistaken, it is still reasonable to assume that the ship is not 80 years old, but instead between 75-85 years old, accounting for rounding common in speech.
*Year of STVI: The Undiscovered Country*
As for dating STVI: _The Undiscovered Country_ , the only chronological reference is McCoy's line; "For twenty-seven years I have been ship's Surgeon aboard the U.S.S. _Enterprise_ . In three months I stand down." This places the film between 26.5 and 27.5 years since McCoy became "ship's Surgeon", which is likely after TOS: _Where No Man Has Gone Before_ and before TOS: _The Corbomite Maneuver_ , but this too is uncertain. Unclear also is the dating of TOS season one. TOS provides many contradictory references across the series, but the strongest evidence seems to be Icheb's line from VOY: _Q2_ stating Kirk's five year mission to end sometime in 2270. The complication is that it is unknown where TOS S1 fits in the range January 1 2265 and December 31 2270 (I understand that this is six years, but this is to account for the uncertainty of what day the missions ends.) With this considered, _The Undiscovered Country_ can not be later than June/2298 or sooner than June/2291. As we expect McCoy to become ship's Surgeon early in the mission, this biases the value to the lower end. If McCoy were ship's Surgeon prior to _Where No Man Has Gone Before_ this date could be lowered further.
*Year of TNG: Peak Performance*
The next object is to establish the date of the episode TNG: _Peak Performance_ . The Memory Alpha dating scale places it in 2365, only I disagree with this scale due to it being predicated upon various assumptions which are not corroborated by canonical evidence. There is considerable evidence pointing to a TNG season instead length of 400 days, but that is a vast matter of its own (which I would be grateful to elaborate upon). Fortunately, by TNG season two, my preferred dating scale does not differ greatly from that of Memory Alpha. Memory Alpha indicates late 2365, but I think that early 2366 is more likely.
*Conclusion*
The latest that the _Hathaway_ might have entered service is therefore ~Jan/2366 - 75y = ~Jan/2291, with the earliest being ~Dec/2365 - 85y = ~Dec/2280. _The Undiscovered Country_ is no sooner than June 2291. _Hathaway_ must have been built prior to _The Undiscovered Country_ , but this difference may only be months. With consideration of the uncertainties in the known dates, it can hence be demonstrated that _Hathaway_ very tightly fits into the chronology, if we are assuming that U.S.S. _Constellation_ preceded it.
This result requires that Kolrami be rounding up the age of the _Hathaway_ from 75 to 80 years; that the date of TNG: _Peak Performance_ to at least be considered to be in late 2365, but preferably later in accordance with the ~400-day season and that McCoy becomes ship's Surgeon of _Enterprise_ during 2265.
*Addendum*
Although I do not think it is a continuity error when the chart is distorted such that it is illegible on-screen, with its text only becoming known due to a late edition of The Star Trek Compendium, assuming it is canonical out of intrigue, it is possible to use further "background information" to demystify missing text. On "Flare Sci-Fi" forum, Michael Okuda allegedly confirmed the information on the Starship Mission Assignments chart to be consistent with the unseen fourth page of the Operation Retrieve briefing (not shown at all in the theatrical release of _The Undiscovered Country_ ). Memory Alpha has an alleged reproduction of this page, where the commanding officer of the _Constellation_ is revealed to be a "G. Cantemessa", suspicious because _Cantamessa_ is the correct spelling of the Italian surname.
*Gratuity*
Thank you for these videos. It is delightful to watch a _Star Trek_ TH-cam channel which is predicated upon canonical evidence, when most channels on the platform take a fan-fiction-styled speculative approach. (Which is of course not wrong, but of less interest to myself.)
Update: I did not consider the uncertainty in the duration of Kirk's five year mission. I think it absolutely believable that Kirk would try to extend it, and delays are inevitable in starship operations. When one considers that the mission likely spanned between five and six years, _Hathaway_ fits quite neatly.
We also know that by TOS: _The Menagerie_ , Pike has not been in command for a _minimum_ of 1.1 years and a maximum of 13.5. We know that Kirk succeeded Pike, but not when.
Constellation class is my all time fave ship . Discovery should of been this class as a test ship . Fantastic video yet again 🎉
I always thought the solution was simpler. Since appears that the USS Yamato and USS Enterprise keels were laid down before USS Galaxy was finished. It would even have Captain Varley's statement about Galaxy Class being rolled out too fast make more sense, if all three ships were being built almost simultaneously. The reason being that once a ship class is authorized 3 are built, with only the prototype being finished first and tested. Then once all problems are worked out (in books its said prototypes are never fielded as they usually have experimental technologies and technology test beds never meant for service) on prototype, the 1 or 2 other ships in the class are finished (with the design changes from prototyping testing) and made into service vessels. Under this idea the Hathaway and Stargazer were built along side the Constellation. But due to continuing issues with the Constellation (this may have to do with Picard saying the Stargazer and possibly the Constellation class were over worked and under powered) prototype having to do with its warp drive (as Geordie mentioned about the Hathaway) that Hathaway was commissioned before Constellation her self. That's commissioned, not built or finished meaning due to Star Fleet regulations Hathaway was officially commissioned as first in class to see service. So what we see in show is the commissioning date and not the construction completion date. Even if she, Constellation and later the Stargazer still had issues. Eventually the Constellation was commissioned too (probably to justify the costs of fixing or at least mitigating her problems, since Picard's statement suggests it was never solved), but if only few or just the 3 Constellation class ships were constructed before class was cancelled. In order to make up for hole the probably cancelled program created (and again the cost of mitigating its issues) the prototype USS Constellation was commissioned too, but after the Hathaway and after Star Fleet cancelled the Constellation class/build program.
Sounds like the Constellation shown in Star Trek VI is at least the Constellation-A and carries the old registry number like usual.
Operation Lovely Angel? Dirty Pair reference ftw.
In my opinion, you can never have enough philosophy when talking about Star Trek, so feel free to elaborate as much as you wish. Great video!
NX-2000 was launched in 2285 so logical to assume that NX-1974 was launched shortly before.
You forget that tge og defiant never lost her nx registry even though her youngers susters were already in production thus could retain the nx even though her sisters get the ncc
If you look at the "certification tests" comment, this could be the situation similar to FAA certification in the US. Simply, the FAA allows initial certification and delivery of a brand new design, while a number of models of the type are put through further testing. Most notable is a full scale fatigue test that doesn't complete until after airframes are being delivered to customers. Following the completion of the fatigue tests on the airframe, full certification is issued for airframes.
Something like this: th-cam.com/video/TH9k9fWaFrs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=xpqoKEjRYVYo0sJt
Usually, fatigue tests destroy the airframe, but A) who knows what 23rd century testing entails; or B) the spaceframes tested to destruction could be a different unnamed ship while the Constellation was a spaceframe assigned to a testing program that isn't destructive. Hathaway could have been built soon after Constellation and either tested or immediately put into service following a similar rationale to the modern FAA certification process.
Since the Star Trek production team was pretty in the loop with the aviation fields (i.e. Matt Jeffries came from the aviation field and the NCC designations are a reflection of real world N registries), I'm certain they would have a basic understanding of the airplane certification process enough to imply an analogous process in their universe.
Or another in universe theory. The Hathaway referenced in ST6 is a different ship entirely, when the prototype failed, they put the name on a pre-existing space frame with a different registration.
I found myself missing the Gong sound!
Good explanation.
It appears that class leaders in Star Trek remain as test beds for the rest of the class. Constantly being taken apart, rebuilt, reconfigured, modified and rebuilt again. It sounds more like a logistics and economics solution. Its easier to have one to experiment with than a dozen constantly lying idle.
The ship could also have been rechristened at some point
I'm not sure that certification has the same meaning as commissioning? Constellation as the pathfinder vessel may well have been commissioned first. With a Hathaway, Stargazer and Constance being commissioned as well as certified with the best results. Constellation later retrofit with those improved specs. Hence a later certification date. Never having been assigned an actual exploration mission until that point.
Also, certification may simply refer to specific systems of the starship. Not necessarily the warp drive. The computer core, eps systems and life support would also be individually certified. At varying dates over the course of construction. Or, as I suspect, following a later retrofit.
The Enterprise C *DESERVES* a more beautiful bridge than this.
Yes, it absolutely does.
They do reuse ship names you know.
Why is that watermelon there?
I didnt hate this.
I really do wish he wouldn't say 'Series' instead of 'Season' when talking about American TV shows, it is just adding a needless confusion to his statements.