"Oops, accidentally made a good movie! Time to make it bad so kids like it!" That reminds me of the process Kung Fu Panda went through. Basically, at first, the writers and director wanted to make a goofy animal movie starring Jack Black as a martial arts obsessed panda, but then, somewhere along the way, they went "what if we.... make it good?", and then it turned into one of Dreamworks' best movies.
@@dakotadouglas5896 3 is a pretty hard nose dive compared to the other 2. Although still a great movie, especially by todays standards. It's ridden with "kid" humor and you can tell a lot less work was put into the plot and relationships
This is something I’ve discovered with my Mom. I tried to show her Arcane recently, mainly because she’s the type that disregards all animation as ‘for kids’ and I thought she would appreciate something that broke that mold. But she couldn’t follow it to save her life. She couldn’t distinguish between shimmer and hextech, she couldn’t remember anybody’s name, she kept mixing up plot points, she was just completely lost. That’s when it hit me that we look to entertainment for totally different purposes. I use it for emotional investment and appreciation of art, she uses it to relax and relate to the ‘real world.’ She’s not looking for depth or story, she wants easy hits of dopamine to float on while she drifts between tasks. Apparently she’s not alone, if she’s become the target demographic of streaming giants.
I suppose it's also an age thing. I used to really like deep philosophical stories that would get me invested as a child or a university student, but as an adult I don't want to get invested any more, because then there is a chance I won't land on my feet the next morning for my work and that'll be a problem as I have responsibilities, I have to be present and not thinking about imaginary stuff. Plus as an adult you can create your own unique story in your life and don't need fantasies as much as when you were a kid, your life was restricted and you could not take full control.
Same with my mum! I was so disappointed. All she did was look at her phone… it was honestly pretty upsetting but I understand that she doesn’t have to like it. I just wish she payed attention for *at least* episode one. But no, nothing.
@@theaveragecomment1014 This hurts to read. I have very strong feelings about how people should respond when someone makes a bid to connect via art they enjoy. I am sorry you had this experience.
This sums it up pretty well. But not everything needs to be deep like perhaps Arcane. Sometimes simplified fun is what one needs. Personally, I'll take both.
As a writer myself who's currently creating his own manga, I like to think i've currently got a fair amount of knowledge due to intensive studying ( And your video's, thank you, Schnee! ) on creating well structured, organized stories. And what i often find myself experiencing ever since i took writing a lot more seriously, is something i like to call: ''The Writers Curse'' Where it becomes very difficult for me to simply enjoy bad shows and films. But even well written ones at times. Rather than taking it all in and emerging myself like child me would do. it's like my mind is constantly scanning and searching for bad pacing, Plot holes and contrivances. So when i sat there watching the Mario movie with my buddy, i began to feel like Anton Ego from Ratatouille. while all the children and even some adults were having a blast. it's like i suddenly remembered that the Movie was trying to make the audience have a huge amount of fun. And in a way, the ''Bad writing'' kind of helped it do that. It's like the writers wanted to fill the cup with 100 percent Fun. no space for ''Deep emotional moments.'' or ''complex arcs''. All fun. it was one big mario themed rollercoaster. *That* was it's goal. And that's when i understood the division in how the film was recieved. Writing wise, It might not have been a very good movie. But it was a *great* Mario Movie.
I'm not a writer but I felt like this watching the mario movie. I admit that the nostalgia got me at some moments because it is fun to see something you enjoyed so much when you were a kid turned into a movie but when it finished I felt very empty inside, yet the people in my theater seemed to be mostly enjoying it. Same with Avatar, the girl sitting at my side started crying when Jake's son died but I just wanted the movie to end because i could no longer stand it
You understood it all, that is it. It is purposely made that way. And if you play games you know those parts are not so important because the engagement with the story and characters don’t come from emotional and deep moments of the characters, but because you feel part of the adventure when you are playing. For example I loved the series Arcane because of the writing, the profoundness and the characters and I also loved the Mario movie because took me to the games and fun I had when I was a child. I am able to separate my personal emotional being that loved this movie, and also the more critic watcher I have inside. I can totally see why it is disliked by the critics and why I loved it even with that. In moments I felt the dialogue bland, and cut it off too fast and it kind of bothered me a little in some parts (Mario meeting the princess and Mario with DK in the fish, specially) but that didn’t make me appreciate the movie less, and at the end I was very satisfied with the conclusion of the movie. Is a very good movie about Mario, and also not a very good movie in terms of cinema appreciation or profound writing.
This is such an incredible point. I have trouble getting into things, partially for the same reason as you, and partially because ADHD makes me worry about devoting time to something when I don't know if it will be worth it. But there's one thing I've always tried to keep in mind, that you pointed out with this comment. Sometimes it's not about whether something is 'good' by my standards. It's about if it's enjoyable, it's about if somebody out there liked it, it's about if it resonates with ONE person and that alone is enough for it to exist
Straight up. It feels like the entertainment but especially movie industry is in this grumpy teenager phase where critics get pissed off any time something isn't super serious and deep because it's not 'adult' and 'good' in the technical sense, but if they just stop being whiny and egotistical for a few minutes they'll see that it's okay to just fucking have fun
I wonder if that's why I always hated Will Ferrel movies when so many people just thought they were hilarious. I always thought he was just stupid and just played the dumb "fish out of water so does moronic things" in every movie
I just rewatched The Dark Knight trilogy recently then I watched Batman Forever and Batman And Robin for the first time. I enjoyed the latter films more because they were just fun and colorful. though, in terms of quality, The Dark Knight is definitely better, Batman Forever was more entertaining IMO.
I watch rio 2 15 times since I don't give crap of what critics say, let full grown adult enjoy colorful music with talking animals with some collage ecology reference.
I think unilaterally looking at either side here and calling it the truth is reductive. At the risk of "both sides"ing yet another topic. Like, yes. Some people will *just have fun* with something that is "bad writing" or "bad filmmaking". The people who are just having fun are entitled to their fun and no amount of critical analysis can take it away (and, in fact, as schnee does in this video, there ought to be some actual serious critical analysis devoted to why these people are having fun in spite of the "bad"ness). And. And! Just because people are having fun with something doesn't make it immune to real critical analysis.
My wife is very empathetic, she really has a hard time not investing in characters’ turmoil regardless of the context. I mean, I’ve seen her cry during a radio commercial. This is a huge superpower irl because she can extend a level of understanding and mercy to hurting people that I’ll just never have access to. I think what you are describing is essentially the way “empaths” experience most everything in their world.
Yeah I learned how to cry tears-dramatically-rolling-down-my-cheek-SILENTLY style bc I am very empathetic and cry at almost everything (I cried to the Pixar short Bao before the main movie even started 😭) and I didn’t like my brother pointing it out in theaters bc he would constantly cry-check me 😤. But I’m not as shy about it anymore and just like feeling sneaky 😊
I'm like this too but think it's the music that's getting to me. Is she like this without the music too? If she hears that a stranger stubbed their toe, does she well up?
@@terranovarubacha5473 Sometimes yeah, like when I see someone get hurt on a funny fails video and go, "Oooo," I'm just laughing. But when she says, "Ooooo" sometimes you can see on her face that she is really fealing it, you know? Like her brain just automatically imagines and to an extent simulates what their pain would feel like. But, no it's not all the time. And , wierdly no, music isn't a big part of it. She's not typically as impacted by music as.
I'm the type that gets teary on the 500th viewing of Up, will audibly sob during several points in Endgame and, while I don't enjoy the Titanic, tear up just thinking about the ending. To me, it doesn't matter how good or bad a film is. As long as it has characters who go through something I can empathise with, I'll be sobbing in the cinema seat
This reminds me of something Roger Ebert once said about how people go to see bad movies because they are comfortable with the idea they won't be disappointed, but can be apprehensive about seeing good movies, because they worry they'll be wasting their time.
Ebert really understood what it means to be a critic and understanding how art affects human emotion, even if its not his emotions. So many critics are just incredibly dumb and self centered, they understand nothing that doesn't appeal directly to THEM.
@@pax6833 I know what you mean. My favorite quote of his is "I don't care what's it's about, I care how it's about it." I try to remember that. More people should I think.
I believe the Mario movie is good in the sense that it doesn't pretend to have great writing or excellent storytelling, focusing more on its relationship with the games it is based on. I doubt that people liked the Rainbow Road scene just because it looks cool... at least for me, that scene is intertwined with hours of races with friends, laughter, and amusing moments. The movie simply pays homage to its source material, without pretending to be anything more or less. For my part, I appreciate the honesty and simplicity once in a while.
here's the thing, it wasn't really marketed that way. Even coming in knowing it wouldn't be great, I still was left with feeling disappointed. Campy and fun movies should exist, but when a movie that butchers the source material pretty bad while also just giving nothing after spending a bagillion dollars on making it, I just didn't have any fun. I tried, but it was like they made a different movie and slapped the characters onto it like an afterthought.
After reading these two comments it makes sense, most people appreciate the movie for the charm, the animation and for what it went for, which was basically make a Mario movie, just for fun But there's also people who feel it didn't offer much or it was paced poorly and was just another nostalgia attention grabber. While I respect and understand both view points, keep in mind these are completely subjective ways to see it, most people will appreciate it and others will not as much, it's all based of your own personal way of watching a movie. Nothing objectively bad or good about it
I saw people get outright mad at critics for not praising this movie though. If they knew they were watching a guilty pleasure, a stupid but fun pandering to their nostalgia, wouldn't they outright expect critics to be harsh on the Mario movie?
@@unvergebeneid A lot of reaction to critics and criticism is mostly emotional and kinda irrational, no one that actually thought about it should have been angry really. No criticism of anything really should make anyone angry. Because it's either valid and you can learn or useless and you can just dismiss it but being angry that someone has a thought process to why they didn't like a show, even if you liked it, is kinda childish.
Some movies are for story some movies like HP, Uper Mario, pixel, etc. are a celebration of a shared cultural experience (ie video game you played or book you read growing up). It's enjoyable to watch Mario kart bc you sunk hours into rainbow road and you are celebrating that shared experience
@@Mr_bukowski4435I mean I watched pixels and enjoyed it for the comedy, the action sequences and the references, I just respect the effort put into the art of the arcade based enemies. I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea but at least there's some people like me who can see some good within it
You nailed it on the identification thing. I'm a really empathetic person and I am completely unable to distinguish good movies from bad movies. And a lot of that comes down to the fact that I am simply unable to see a character as a "badly-written" or "unrealistic" character. I see them as people, I see them as "maybe they're a little weird but some people are a little weird" and I empathize with all their experiences even if they are contrived. Especially if they're suffering. I see Anakin say "I hate sand" and I'm like "I'm so sorry you had to grow up on a sand planet and that you have so many terrible memories there, I can't imagine what that's like" etc.
Number 5 is quite evolutionary, we get a spike of "happy hormones" when we predict something because not so long ago our very survival depended how well we can predict the weather, possible predator attacks, how much food to store for the winter and so on. That's also why people like to listen to the same songs over and over again (oh the chorus is about to start! it started! nailed it!).
probably wouldn't point to evolutionary psychology for that answer, we get dopamine for entirely current and applicable situations, such as being right about something. theres no evidence to suggest it's evolutionary at all, its a defunct science
I listen to the same playlist over and over when I work because when my brain can predict what comes next, it frees up processing power I use for focusing on the task. It literally distracts my mind so I can get to the flow state faster. Very useful
Technically this applies to "Good" movies we watch over and over again. Maybe the first time it was all about how great the story was, but the tenth time you're watching a movie, no matter how good, you are officially just farming that dopamine.
@@MasonLopezI have watched arcane 4 times. First time. Second time I did it to try and find small things like eatereggs or things I missed. Third time was for an exam project. Fourth was with my family bc i showed them it, and they somehow enjoyed it. Tho my mom barely paid any attention lol.
Personally, I didn't walk into the Mario Movie expecting a cinematic masterpiece. I came looking for a fun time with a bunch of references that I coukd just turn my brain off for an hour and a half to pretty colors and at least decent music. And that's about what I got to be honest. The music was better than expected (the orchestral version of the Super Star theme at the end was shockingly good), the plot didn't have any glaringly obvious plotholes as far as I could tell, the references, while a bit forced, never got obnoxious, Donkey Kong was fun, the Luma was fun, Jack Black's Bowser was fun-ny. It was definitely a family movie that parents and older siblings wouldn't have to grin and bear through, and that's all it needed to be.
I have a similar experience to Rio 2 since it was made for biology majors - so many ecology references and rarely seen animals that zoology nerd can figure out
I think you are a unique TH-camr. Since the awesome analysis of Arcane to this. You could simply could have done a video explaining why is bad (a lot of other content creators have done this…), but you sincerely tried to understand why people genuinely like this movie. I understood more about this with this video so thank you so much! Your speculative part I think that also has to do with the actors capacity of deliver a performance that is believable to some people, and the thing about identifying with the characters themselves. And also, some people are more empathetic than others, I see an actor crying in some context and that immediately puts me emotional even in a bad story. But in some movies that the actors are not so good in deliver the emotions or the script is too bad (like in rings of Power) I don’t feel anything at all, and I don’t care about the characters. I think that the performance of the actors, voice actors and even the animation when it is animation has to do with this.
Something else worth mentioning: this also applies to other aspects of presentation. Things like music, cinematography, maybe its animation, but the way i perceive a scene very much affects how it makes me feel. I scene i think is god awful writing might have a beautiful soundtrack that makes me feel things even if i think its stupid.
I really appreciate how you actually spent time trying to understand this phenomena, and not simply dismissing it explaining why you didn’t like it. It’s very easy to pick things apart, and it’s easy to mention a few things you like. I love that you never get hung up in details when analysing movies and series, but rather discuss the broad themes. And if you discuss details, you do it deep and thoroughly. I especially dislike when people hate on music for being bad. “Oh all of the popular music nowadays is trash”. No, it’s not inherently bad, you simply don’t like it. People can enjoy songs because of the lyrics, the rhythm, the melody, the beat, the feelings it invokes or for its genius composition. Few songs are objectively bad in all of these aspects.
That's what I love about Schnee. It's so easy to dismiss people who like "bad" things as stupid or "uncultured", but Schnee doesn't do that. He took the hard route of analyzing this from an observer POV, without downplaying the thing
@@joganesha4151 Yeah, I love that schnee's first response to not liking something is never "why did that suck?" but rather "why did that make me feel this way?" He seemingly-instinctually interrogates his own biases in a way that few critics (and almost no other TH-camrs) do.
Yes! I really like Post Modern Jukebox, and the amount of times people in the comments complain about modern music sucking...UGH. It's so hypocritical because they're a modern band adapting modern music, yet people act like their music is definitive proof that music sucks nowadays. :/
I will say I do feel especially antagonistic towards music played on popular radio stations. I feel as though they fail to be good at any of the things you mentioned. And I understand that the reason people listen to it is because of the comfort of predictability, but I feel that if so it fundamentally fails as music.
In the case of Mario, I would say it's because people appreciate a movie that clearly was made with love for the fans and the franchise it was working with. Similar to Top Gun: Maverick and Hogwarts Legacy. When you don't insult the fans and show respect for the IP you are working with, then you earn the respect of the audience and make bank. Your average person doesn't put value into what critics have to say anymore.
@@null6209 Now I am no expert but from what I understand, typically there are a bunch of actual people with names and their own ideas who make movies. Nintendo movies and Nintendo games aren’t made by an anthropomorphic Nintendo logo in a suit (at least not yet). Nintendo’s corporate model and the actual artists who work on their products are basically polar opposites. Which is why Nintendo can both be the most toxic anti-fan company on the planet and still have some of the most beloved IPs in existence.
Sometimes you like it because of how it is experienced by you at that time. You get meaning out of it, and enjoy it. Who is the authority on good movies? Who has the right to tell us what to like?
that 6th category literally just blew my mind- it explains why my family gets physically upsset at things like action scenes even though they know it's about to happen and have seen scenes like that multiple times before (i.e. a car crash or stabbing). they're putting themselves in that situation and that's why it annoys me when they "overreact" lol. really great video, a lot of the movies you showed here i really enjoyed and now im thinking about why i actually liked them!
I am that kind of person tbh. I can't stand war movies at all, I literally start to panic. My mom jokes that I was a soldier in a past life because I can't handle it, lol. Gunshots scary.
Using story as a secondary movie element is such a surprisingly good take. I had a sudden flashback to so many movies I liked for some reason, that this helped me understand better
Hm...it reminds me of an old adage when it comes to stories in video games: they're not needed to have fun, but they do enhance it. And maybe that's an approach filmmakers need to take more? After all, movies are just another form of entertainment, even if it makes us cry.
It sounds like a pretty strange phenomenon at first, but it kind of makes sense when you really think about how comedies and humor works. Extremely abnormal things that we would normally never expect have been constantly used to make audiences laugh. The horribly over the top personalities of characters like Jack Horner or Glenn Quagmire, or the sheer insanity of the things that happen in each and every episode of South Park are a perfect example of that. And the fact that these things go way too far is what makes them feel so absurd, and therefore, so funny. They really feel like they shouldn't exist in this way, yet they still do anyway, and we just can't help but laugh at that. Bad movies absolutely make use of this too. I consider Birdemic one of the most memorable and funny movies I've ever seen, specifically because of the ridiculousness of the notion, that there was a giant team of paid professionals that went "Yup, this is great!", and went on to publish that movie (...and partially because I've watched it with my family and friends during vacation, so it was sort of a big event for me, but I digress). It just seems logically impossible to have a n actual serious movie that is this bad in every way imaginable, that you're guaranteed to get caught off guard by it, which is how it gets you to laugh so much. And animated movie ripoffs get even better, since they get to throw in some of the worst looking animation you've ever seen too. They don't take themselves as seriously as Birdemic does, though, which makes them loose a bit of the irony that makes that movie funny, but I'd say you can still find a ton of humor in the sheer absurdity of the existence of movies like What's Up or Ratatoing. And if all else fails, you can still watch a bunch of youtubers loosing their minds over trying to make sense of the ridiculousness of those movies. It's a lot of fun all around.
As the person that gets hit with the "oh, you. You're over thinking it," I 100% agree with your conclusion here. I like stories and I like all the nuance and depth that comes from a story so after I finish a movie, part of my fun is reflecting on the story. That is NOT that case for a lot of movie goers. They want to relive a scene by talking about the explosions or the twist or the reveal or whatever. It's about the scenes. Not the storyline. I watched Enchanted with a few friends who are big fans of the disney/pixar kids genre. As soon as the movie was over I explained my confusion with the plot and how the grandmother's backstory feels like something is missing. OR did the pursuers just not continue through the mountains? Did the mountains forming kill them? What happened? AND WHY? Why were they fleeing the bad guys? Who were they? All of which got me slapped with the "oh so it wasn't violent enough for you? You wanted more of the violent scene?" We also watched Coco (new to me - not my friends who were rewatching it). My friend threw her pillow at me when I called the plot twist within 30 mins. If you're a writer or a story nerd who enjoys picking apart narratives, figuring out the plot and reflecting on it is part of your fun. For most other viewers, they want to just sit down and let the movie take the reigns. What's awesome about this phenomena is it demonstrates how different we all are and how we experience things differently.
I would also add to the "identification" Part. Sometimes is even more than "what if I was in the character's place", and it's more that the character or the story REMINDS people of things they experienced already, and the film, as bad as it could be, is able to trigger a response because of an emotional experience of the person watching it. I never cried when a character died, if it happened it was extremely rare, but since one of my parents passed out, I now cry every time, even in normal scenes where a random parent is just being nice; not necessarily bc the story or the character is well written, but because it triggered a personal experience. Not saying this is always the case with everyone, but that's my two cents.
That happened when I went to see Moana. When her grandmother died I couldn't stop my tears because my relationship with my grandmother was like Moana's and I lost her the year prior.
Understandable and I'm sorry to hear that but for some of us it really is as simple as that what if we just empathize perhaps too easy(for me even if a story is bad and I'm not enjoying it or really relating to the characters it can still probably make me cry regardless if it tries even a little bit)
Yess, if a movie drops off somewhere, in pace, story whatever, it *can* (emphesis: CAN) become boring! And if the boring things become a trend across the same franchise, they often become problems, become less interesting and then people stop watching
Its the awkward shuffle away from the the person who says fifa when asked that question. I've watched it happen in real time. Total mood killer sometimes.
As an elder millenial who was once a young boy, I can _definitely_ confirm that explosive fight sequences between comically overpowered characters "gets their veins pumping". If you were a boy between the ages of 9 and 14 when Dragon Ball Z became popular in the West, _nothing_ got you more hyped up on a Saturday morning than seeing if the climactic battle they'd been teasing for the last six episodes was _finally_ going to happen. Most times, it didn't. But when it _did,_ oh boy... you'd be bouncing off the walls with adrenaline for hours after.
I like "bad" movies specifically because I know they're going to follow a set of rules, even if there is a good story line that has twists and stuff, it isn't going to really shock me, emotionally. I already have a lot of emotional stress in my life, and when I'm watching a movie or show or whatever, I'm looking to *escape* that stress. Shows like Arcane, while undoubtedly a brilliant work of art and phenomenal storytelling, have the ability to emotionally cripple me for days, sometimes even weeks, because I sympathize too easily with the characters and what they're going through. Formulaic movies and shows are safer, things like princess or hero movies, games made into movies, they're going to follow rules--no one is going to die or suffer in a way that won't be emotionally resolved through the movie, and most if not all of the movie is going to be a cheerful experience that allows me to not feel bad for the runtime. Because of this, I actually get upset when movies break the mold. I saw Infinity War in theaters, and I was so unprepared for it that I no longer watch Marvel movies in theaters because they're no longer a guaranteed formula. When a movie or show is different and has engaging storytelling, it requires more mental and emotional effort to consume, and I need to be prepared for that to really enjoy the experience.
i feel this in a lot of ways. i still love watching shows like arcane or seeing a really deep movie like spiderverse but its kinda like food moods where these really heavy hitting shows are the heavy foods and often i just want something light. ive found myself somewhat recently getting back into anime but instead of seeking out the good ones everyone loves ive been watching the cookie cutter power fantasies that i know empty but they still are just kinda fun for me and i know exactly what im getting myself into and that ill get exactly what i ask for. sometimes u just wanna eat ur shitty junkfood and i think thats okay
I feel the exact same way as you do, but the difference with me is that... I LIKE to be emotionally crippled for days. It causes my mind to analyze, speculate and theorize. Emotions turn into ideas. This is my ticket to being invested in the media I consume. The emotional cripple I get doesn't affect me emotionally that spirals down my life, rather it turns into inspiration to create something out of it. But I do have friends who can't take heavy emotional impacts like these. It's not their cup of tea, and I respect that.
Now I'm kinda curious for Schnee's analysis of something like Mad Max Fury Road. Something with very simple turn-my-brain-off plot, but surprisingly deep worldbuilding and storytelling stuff under the hood
Turn your brain off specifically means to ignore logical fallacies or sloppy writing; not simplistic story telling. Pixar stories are usually not referred to as 'turn your brain off' movies because, in spite of being simple, they're strong and well made. By contrast, transformers movies (a common turn-your-brain-off series), have a ton of story events, plot twists, and characters arcs, but they're not well constructed.
mad max fury road still carries emotions across it and a whole lot of minute storytelling beats that keep the viewer engaged. The action and reaction tension and conflicts carry the show. The world building that almost sounds barebones-- happens in a desert is used enough to show how nature could be dangerous and how humans adapt to it. It's a well made movie storywise even if the plot is very little and the characters don't use dialogue often
@@Spaceisprettybig exactly this. A simple story isn't bad. A story that contradicts itself is bad. Nobody will complain that a magic fantasy has a wizard who casts a spell. They WILL complain if the story says you need a wand to cast a spell and then the MC casts a spell without a wand.
It's my experience that people don't really distinguish between a movie that makes them feel good because it's written well and a movie that makes them feel good because it makes their brain light up. I remembered talking to a guy I worked with about the Ghostbusters 2016 movie, and he said 'I don't remember what happened in that movie, but I remembered liking it, so it's a good movie.' I think we see a lot of 'bad' movies these days (or cheaply written ones) because it's ultimately easier to write 'stuff people like' as opposed to good reasons for people to do cool stuff.
So kids like seeing two powerful forces fighting each other…but some how that can’t exist in a “good story”…which means… Instructions unclear, showed my 6 year old Berserk.
I thoroughly enoyed the Mario Movie, but largely because I was at a Party screening at an Alamo Drafthouse where my friends and I were able to laugh, talk, make jokes, and generally enjoy the references and bait in our own way. I said to a few friends that it's not a movie I'd consider a masterpiece in any regard, but rather a fun couple hours to kill, something I'd put on for kids and maybe rewatch myself once or twice. I really appreciate the look into what makes different pieces of art good for different reasons. Something I've been trying to put into words for a long time myself. There's a lot of stories that people rag on for being bad in X way and I've always tried to find a good way to express that while one story might have plotholes you could drive a truck through, that doesn't disqualify it from being good. Some stories are fine with plotholes, others rely on their tight, well-executed plot to function. Depends on what the draw is. Same concept can be expanded out to any specific thing that makes a movie good.
This video is really good, lot of questions most people are to dismissive or lazy to ask, the job or a writter/critic should always include trying to understand things outside of our understanding or media, and this is one of the first times i see someone genuenly trying to do that.
The Mario Movie did not "turn my brain off," in fact quite the opposite. For me, what made the Mario Movie as amazing as it was had nothing to do with the general story or even the action itself, but rather the references. Every second of the movie my eyes were open searching for little details and hints that didn't need to be there. What makes the Mario Movie awesome is that they put genuine care into it, to make it as faithful to the original reference material as possible while simultaneously doing their own thing. The story was even that bad, it was just generic. But yeah, the story wasn't the focus it was the characters and the world they live in. The story was there as a means to provide that context to those events that give call-backs and respect to the thing its representing. Any long term Mario fan knows that story is never the focus in the games as well, and is only really there to justify the events taking place. The animation is really good too. Even without the story, references, and everything else, the movie still looks great.
@@katiecramton6336 That's still my definition of 'brain off entertainment' honestly. It's still watching the movie for very specific things rather than a whole. 'Brain off' for cool scenes and moments, 'Brain on' for story structure and deeper meanings, and I would lump finding cool references in 'brain off' entertainment imo, they're like mini-scenes
You articulated my concern about critics not understanding why I enjoy certain movies and declaring them bad. Even though some are still bad for what they are even trying do. I can now use this as a reference .
Hi Schnee. Long-time listener, first time caller. Grateful for this videos for the lenses that you propose we look through. Insightful as ever. I find myself wanting to reject the premise that people enjoying these "short attention span", "over-stimulating lights and sounds", "theme-park ride" type movies is only an issue of taste. To me, it feels like an intentional dumbing down... keeping people on milk, unable to progress to solid foods. I like the food analogy; it's not just a matter of taste, but of substance. The motivating force behind engagement in a movie - the "itchiness" of an unresolved story or arc seems to be replaced in some, by an abject terror- the horror of boredom. The former fosters a patience and tolerance of discordant emotions. The latter glorifies the shallow comfort of distraction. I dont believe it's fair to say we are getting an equivalent movie-going experience. You have asked that we challenge our preconception of what movies can be. I just dont want to consider that movies can be so much less. It is easy enough for me to recognize that these movies are not "for me". Far be it from me to not let people enjoy what they enjoy. I'm hoping you can rebut this uncomfortable snap judgement thats lingering. Im not usually so elitist about my interests...
An abject terror of boredom, that feels right on the nail. I think you can synthesize the two approaches: ask what function a phenomenon is serving, while also questioning if that functioning is the best in a moral sense? To analogize to psychology: just because a coping mechanism serves a load-bearing function doesn't mean it's healthy. So looking at these sorts of movies, we've got some common threads: a fear of boredom or lack or maybe even complexity, a need for order and nostalgia, repetition and familiarity and turning one's brain off. And then, I think, we can look at the world we live in: one that's horribly complex, terrifying, changing all the time, while so much that we love and rely on (whether it's religion, community, family or just people we look up to) falls apart under the onslaught of change and new perspectives. Now, I think much of this process is good for us: so much of what we have built our society on is harmful, so much needs to be brought to light, we need deep systemic and cultural change if we are to survive or find meaning in this world. BUT all this is SO difficult to deal with as a person, humans were NOT optimized for thorough cultural overhaul in the space of a generation or two, this is insane, and being terrified and overwhelmed and confused is an entirely reasonable response. And wanting SOMETHING that's predictable, fun, uncomplicated, shallowly emotional, stimulating enough to drown out any distractions makes perfect sense. (And it's not just other people, I find myself in desperate need of that sort of distraction sometimes, even tho I'm terrible at turning my brain off so it's difficult to let it work.) Back to your maybe-implicit question (I'm wondering about it): is it elitist to call all this bad? My take for the moment, which will likely evolve as I digest the video further, is that you're rather right about it being a substance thing. I think there is moral value in being able to wait for things, to handle complex emotions, to process complex ideas, to critique things and expect quality... but, like any degree of personal growth, those things are difficult. I find myself in this position. Rewatching Arcane teaches me so much, but it's so emotionally intense that it drains me, I want to watch schnee's long analysis methodology video, but that's too much for my limited bandwidth to handle, so I rewatch the shorter videos I already know. So I think it's something that just being morally judgy about doesn't really help (I'd say that about most problems). Instead, for myself, I'm trying to figure out: how do I cultivate the energy, the inner quiet, the attention to sit down and read books again, to think deeply about stuff more often like I want to? That's a work in progress. And I'd speculatively analogize that to society: if we want quieter, more complex, more meaningful stories to be more prevalent, that's not just an art thing, we need to cultivate a society that can AFFORD that kind of investment into art. That's one angle on the question on the question, anyway.
I think it's all down to personal views and taste in film. Not to mention, I think if you like parts of a movie, that can help as well. And if you like ENOUGH of those parts, then that makes up the sum of the whole, and thus the movie is enjoyable for the viewer. I'll use a movie that I like for example that a lot of others don't. From personal experience, I quite like _Star Wars: The Last Jedi._ It's a movie that's *VERY* *_VERY_* divisive in the Star Wars fandom. But where others hate it for one reason or another, I like it. I like the ideas it sets up, I like the character interactions of Luke, Rey and Ben. I like that it kinda knocks Rey down quite a bit mentally, so seeing her save the rebellion at the end is a nice moment. Rey as a character has a lot of potential, especially when it comes to her mental fortitude or lack of it, given that she questions herself a lot especially in _The Rise of Skywalker_ and given how stubborn she is. There's a lot to work with there. I like that it paints someone like Luke Skywalker in a morally gray light which is super fascinating considering who his father was. Especially makes sense if you've seen how Anakin is in the Clone Wars. I love the cinematography, I love the action, and I love the score. I love Luke's character arc as well, and his last stand scene is outright gorgeous and iconic. And even referenced in The Clone Wars s7. The plot admittedly, falls flat in the end, where Rey doesn't take Ben's hand, something she should've done, but other than that, I really do love TLJ because it breaks the mold for Star Wars. We hadn't seen that done since the Clone Wars. Now for movies that are GENERALLY seen as bad, such as the _Transformers_ films, I can outright admit they aren't the greatest plot wise. But I'm not about to sit here either, and disregard all the work put into those films, especially the first one given it came out in 2007 and the CGI still holds up to this day. The score is also stunning for those movies as well, Steve Jablonsky is very underrated and should be getting more work. Another movie that's generally seen as a weak film, is the _Cars_ trilogy. The trilogy as a whole is often regarded as the worst of Pixar's lineup, when I just don't think that's the case. The movies are basic and simple sure I can admit that. But the first and third movies have a lot of passion to them, and often times, when it comes to criticism of the franchise, that passion for racing and animation is overlooked and ignored which I don't really agree with. You can tell the first and third movies have a lot of heart to them. That kind of heart and passion, should be acknowledged in your criticism, because people worked hard to bring this story to life. Even if it didn't work for you personally, to disregard all that effort, again just doesn't sit right with me. When it comes to liking bad movies, I think what happens, is people can overlook the bad, if there's enough good in it. A movie is only as good as the parts that make up the entire thing anyways; cinematography, acting, action sequences, reveals, twists and turns, the plot itself, characterization, pacing, writing, costume design, editing, sound design, sound mixing, visual effects....if enough of these things can be good to someone, then well that movie will be a good time.
I think critics do get hung up on particular aspects like story and ignore all the other passion in it. It's like in art school when teachers say a comic or illustration isn't art. They don't see what they specifically want and brand the whole thing bad. It's like seeing an apple with a spot on it and tossing the whole thing out. It doesn't matter if you are going to turn the apple into a pie, and you can just cut off the bad part even if you just want to eat it that way. An apple rotten all the way through is no use to anyone (movies like Transformers: Age of Extinction are the best example), but critics sometimes are too stringent on only wanting their perfect apple.
for me a bad film i like is thor the dark world. God that movie is overall kinda shit but i only put it on for loki, his characterisation and the sibling interactions with thor. its fun to laugh at whatever the fuck he’s doing especialy since i can’t take it seriously as that movie exists SOLELY to introduce the reality stone into the mcu.
as far as the last jedi goes, i dont really hate the movie itsef, i think the biggest issue is the amount if rules and history that was already set up in the star wars universe that were broken in that movie. at least, this is why i disliked it (also the choreography was pretty bad tbh)
As someone who cries at many, many stories...it was really interesting to hear your point #6! At least for me, you hit the nail on the head with the "what if?" concept, though personally, I don't so much think of my own life. Like seeing a character lose a family member doesn't make me think "this is like when we lost relative x, now I'm crying because I'm thinking about relative x" It's more like a highly empathetic perspective-taking where my brain puts itself into the character and imagines being them, having their life experiences, and feeling the weight of what this scene would mean to someone in that position. So I don't cry at EVERYTHING because there is no weight to that if the story was poorly-written or the scene wasn't executed well. But when those scenes do hit, they HIT
But see, my thing is... Couldn't you just have both? Like, both a blood pumping fight scene and a good story! Why does one have to exclude the other?! Literally, thank you for showing the bridge fight between Ekko and Jinx in Arcane (and that could be extended to all the fight scenes in Arcane btw), because I can assure you, it wouldn't have been nowhere near as iconic as it turned out to be, if Arcane didn't have a Masterpiece level story. People would've just been like "oh wow cool, I love what they did there with the animation, really clever, awesome" and that's it, but with the story Arcane has, that one fight scene ascends to ICONIC status. So like, I guess we live in a time where, for every Super Mario, Force Awakens, Marvel movie, Ghostbusters reboot, new Matrix, etc. We occasionally find/get diamonds like Arcane and The Last of Us in all this Hollywood mud💎
could a basketball game have a good story? yes, it could. and it would be great. stories have been made about games for decades, no matter the sport you like, i am certain you could think about a story happening in a game. a good story can be, its just that it isn't the focus, it does not matter as much. not for these kinds of movies. arcane? arcane is a story driven lol movie. not a lol movie with a story. you want to see what a lol movie with a story looks like? open the movie clips for RISE, Legends never die etc. arcane is not that. i don't like lol, and arcane is one of my favorite series this does NOT mean that those clips are bad (and imo, they are exactly the same as the super mario movie, but short AF), just that they serve another purpose (in this case, providing a background for the song in a way that attaches it to the lol franchise)
TWO CAKES! But in reality while having both highly elevates stories where it works, in some it just won't serve the same purpose. It's okay to just be one or the other sometimes. That's what the video is getting at--just because it could have both doesn't mean it needs it, and just because it doesn't have both doesn't mean it's not worth enjoying. It's like how rollercoasters can have drops, loops, or both--it's not incomplete or less fun for the majority if it only has one, having both just makes for an extra spectacular ride
For the record, I did not enjoy the Star Wars sequels (but did watch them), enjoy most of the MCU movies but most are only "standard quality cinema" at best (and have given up on following along), and I enjoyed stuff like Arcane above all those properties immensely. But a movie is a sum of many parts: music, visuals, characters, scenes, dialogue, humor, mystery, and yes, story. But the story is only 1 part of many, and it does take up space when you have a runtime of 1 hour and 45 minutes. The people making this movie decided they wanted more of everything else. However, just having 20 loose scenes without any cohesion between them isn't good either, they do need SOME story. In this case however, it just needs to allow everything else to take place more naturally. It's a dumb story. It's a flat story. It's one you have seen play out 1.000.000 times before. But you have never seen king Bob-bomb get exploded, or Bowser's forces drive around in Mad-max style vehicles chasing after Mario. You have never seen a nihilistic Luma wish for death. When you look at all the bad video game movies, you can clearly see where they failed: they failed to deliver on the fantasy, the feeling, of the original IP. The Halo series ruined master chief, they failed to deliver on the larger-than-life persona of the chief that made him such a memorable character. But the Mario movie got Mario RIGHT. It's Mario through and through, even though he has more personality than we have ever seen him have. Yes, the story is a weak glue holding everything together. But it holds, and the entire picture is an incredibly fun and visually stimulating amusement park ride with funny momements. It was exactly what I expected, it was exactly what I wanted, and exactly what I got. So no, it's not a bad movie. A bad story? Yes, but not a bad experience and not a bad movie.
@@giliansterckx The part where you list the things we've never seen in a Mario game is probably one of the factors of a good video game adaption. Because when I think of a good adaption, it's not "alright how do we turn this video game experience into a movie exprience?" but more like, "okay, what are some of the things people have NEVER seen before in this video game franchise? And how do we make it interesting?" We've raced on goddamn rainbow road before but have you ever seen mad max racing on it?
I think it is just a case by case. An example I could think of is AOT. That anime is a heavy story driven with a lot of lore. It has to have a good story since that's why the audience is there. But that story driven vibe wouldn't work for a show like the way of the house husband or saki k where the main focus isn't the story. The scenarios and cheap fun are what people are looking for in those shows. I do like when shows have both and make it work. For example, romantic killer where it has goofy scenarios but great sub plot happening in the background. I would say both are valid and it just depends what you are looking for. I think for me, I'm not seeing a clever use of both alot. I don't want to sit through a melodrama of exposition dumps but I also don't want to turn my brain off. I want a show that knows how to be serious but also not take itself too seriously and has fun with it.
As always, you managed to touch on an entire range of weirdly relatable points that I don't think are usually talked about. "Who said that movies have to tell a story" hits particularly close to home, because (perhaps as a leftover of my artsy phase) I still have a soft spot for pieces that experiment with the medium. From montages from the 20s, to George Lucas' weird film school experiments (and films like Koyaanisqatsi from the same era), to relatively modern "visual poetry" like the Kin triptich or The Fountain... I've since come to appreciate great stories, so much so that the idea of art steering away from them feels frustrating, but then I stop and remember that earlier sentiment. Perhaps there is indeed more to be found outside of the comfort zone.
I feel like you could make a video in reverse: “Why do some people like “good” movies?” I think that my enjoyment of entertainment is like yours, which I think is why I was drawn to your channel. I love shows like Arcane and Andor that have so much love and thought put into them. I keep wanting to share them with the people I care about, and what I’ve found is that my mom (who also loves hallmark) really loves these shows with me, while my best friend doesn’t end up continuing to watch them because he calls them “too big brain”. I feel like there is some cool analysis that could be done there
This is an interesting topic, I personally went into the Mario Movie expecting a simple story and a lot of fan service. Even knowing that my mind at times was still in there analyzing stuff when not distracted by the fan service. I got what I wanted while also still engaging in the part of me that likes to analyze stories. I find story analysis to be fun in its own right but also have to the idea that some stories are better enjoyed as is but can be analyzed but not to the point of snobbery. I love Star Wars Episode 8 for the experience it is but I do know it is a mess of a plot and there were legitimate reasons for people to not like it.
Great breakdown of the different ways and reasons people enjoy movies of all types. A good story can never truly stand on its own and be good imo. It needs supporting structures to make it impactful, fun, exciting whatever you want it to be. We, as storytellers and writers, put stories on this pedestal but even in books a good story on its own will not engage your reader. You need other elements to make that story more impactful. You add themes and imagery. You add fluff or tension. There are very few stories that can’t be told in a few sentences. If all we focused on was story that’s all we’d get. It’s not about the story though. It’s about the Journey. It’s about the way the journey makes you feel, makes you think.
You know sometimes I think about Hardcore Henry. An Objectively Shallow and tasteless movie that only is violence 3D: The Movoe. But then I remember it was just a good fun time. Even if technically it is a Bad Movie because it lacks a story and a lot of plot holes that are never explained. It is a movie that made me feel joy
I thought the Mario movie was badly written at first, but as i watched i understood that it wasnt Trying to be good or well paced, so i couldnt really get myself to judge it based on that. And as an artist, a lot of my enjoyment came from the visuals. I was analyzing the character design and environment the whole time, which made the movie a blast for me!
I also tend to enjoy movies because if the artistic element. Which is why I like certain movies others don’t. I don’t necessarily always care about the story (unless it’s really really bad). And the art doesn’t always have to be animated; I like it when a movie has fantastic costumes or a brilliant score as well. 😄😊
When I told people I watched the Mario movie I always answered the “how was it?” Question with: “It was such a dumb movie, but not in a bad way”. I stand by that statement, it was bad, but it was honestly just a fun watch overall and made wonderful use of the voice acting cast somehow
1. Schnee, I love your analytical mind. I think the thousands of people that watch your videos like the way your breakdown things. 2. People like things that are familiar to them. We like to be nostalgic of our past. This is the #1 reason why there is a new Mario movie.
I can't believe everytime you show up you bring us something new and exciting, and to me always that experience of revelation. Tho in my personal experience watching movies, I don't need and complex story if the movie is not about that (comedy, etc) but a "bad story" (things that don't fit, potholes, characters acting out of their racional sense in the story) is distracting, is making noise in my head; like biting a grain of pepper, occupaing a place in my mouth where the flavor should go
I’m definitely one of those people you described who gets super emotional easily, even from bad movies. But I’m also a writer and really passionate about good storytelling, so when a scene tugs at my emotions without first setting up a good story to support it, I’m always annoyed by it. I kind of get angry at my own emotions for betraying me-for having the nerve to be activated in the middle of something so silly. I guess I habitually zero in on the moment-what I perceive the characters to be feeling, justified or not-and can’t help but react to that, irrespective of the scenes that surround it. It’s a little like seeing a child cry over something silly-I don’t see the silly aspect of what they’re crying about, I only see that they’re hurting, and I respond to that. If they are crying about something silly, then hopefully I can help them calm down and see that everything’s really okay. But I see the pain first, not the cause. But I absolutely, vehemently dislike movies that pull an emotional reaction out of me without earning it. Even though it works, I always feel like I’ve been manipulated afterwards. I want stories that make sense AND make me feel.
I like the way you put it. I find that emotional scenes that evoke strong reaction in movies, but fail to have a story building up to it, feels unearned. This is where my own story analysis in me gets riled up to come up with solutions on how it could have been written better. But I guess not all people have this eye of a writer. So, they will not be able to perceive the nuances we care about in the craft of storytelling. However, I'm this kind of audience who doesn't easily become provoked with emotions when consuming a movie or series. I need strong storytelling to make me get invested in and feel those emotions, or else I'll passively watch the thing and might forget about it later. This is not fun to me. 😅
I've always hated pandering movies where it feels like they're just dangling keys in front of you. Especially when I was a kid. it felt like being talked down to and it drove me mad. To be fair, my favorite movie at 6 years old was Oh Brother Where Art Thou. It wasn't until I was an adult I actually appreciated these kinds of movies more. Not all clearly (looking at you DreamWorks) but appreciating the art choices and creative twists on a familiar path. I'm still a lot more entertained with trailblazing stories with well written characters, but there is something to an experience movie and I feel like you nailed it
The "familiar thing that comforts me and I want to spend some more time with" makes so much sense. I routinelly have really bad episodes of head scratching when poeple around me want so much to see old Dragon Ball Z episodes, new movies of Mario, even more Star Wars crap or yet another foútbol game... such things bore me soooo much. Instead I'm constantly searching for "weird", "inusual", "bold", "snobby", "artsy", "independent" or "experimental" stuff. I objectively don't share the same background as my peers, so, if the parameter is familiarity and comfort, it makes total sense we don't like the same stuff.
Thanks for this video. My girlfriend and I are on the two different sides of the spectrum and it can be difficult sometimes, but this video helped me understand her point of view more.
I'm the kind of person who used to equate movies with story and I got so mad when people didn't understand why a movie was not good by my standards. I've chilled out about it recently but you only just made me realize why. Knowing that these are just types of movies that I don't like and not necessarily abhorrent garbage gives me a bit of peace, weirdly enough
I came back to this video to watch the part about category 6 again. I've been crying yesterday throughout the last 100 pages of a novel I didn't think was even that great, and I couldn't help but think about your take on identification. I suddenly realize why I'm invested in so many "technically bad" shows haha
I don’t know if this would apply to all videogame adaptations but I do think it definitely applies to the Super Mario movie and the reason I think so is because I had a similar experience with the recent Mortal Kombat movie. To preface, I am also a story over thinker so I understand exactly what you are talking about. But, I did like the Super Mario movie and I also liked the Mortal Kombat movie (another video game adaptation that was a “bad” movie but generally enjoyed by audiences). The reason I liked both of these movies is because they were giving me what the original video games gave me, just in a different, more visually stimulating format. Neither of these games are known for their stories. I play Mario for the game mechanics, set piece and character designs, for the atmosphere of an adventure. I play Mortal Kombat for brutal fights with thematic gory fatalities. Both of these movies deliver on that front. They don’t need to have a good story because the games themselves didn’t have good stories. Now i do think I could enjoy them even more if they gave me a good story to go along with it; after all I do connect with good stories more than anything else. But in these cases it wasn’t necessary.
There is something I must say about the Mario karts solution: context can and I think did for that movie fix or negate something that could be bad writing by itself. What do we see a lot as we are introduced to Kong’s kingdom? The apes love using their karts, they are driving them instead of walking. So of course the king of the apes, who love karts, would say the solution is karts. It’s only bad writing if you have a high bar for suspension of disbelief, which is common among critics. It makes sense in its own world it’s consistent come to that world and culture the answer came from. I think there’s an answer to one your premise questions of maybe you already wrote the movie off and called it bad and so it is bad for you: confirmation bias. If you go to the theater saying “this is a video game movie, video game movies have a history of being terrible, this is going to be a terrible movie.” You set your standards and bars really high for you to suspend your disbelief without knowing it. This makes any sharp corner the author railroading instead of you having theory of mind on a culture and saying “oh, of course, they’re going to make that left turn. They always make left turns.” So you know where I’m coming from with this reasoning. I’ve had a writing critic/grumpy writing Coach and author go at me on writerscafe for something that needed work with actually having a scene and sequel structure, (or at least having more of the reaction part of the natural action reaction cycle,) but his immediate judgment was that I didn’t give enough in the beginning for his suspension of disbelief, and when I did, (by way of more information as his first comment lead me to believe,) there was a complaint of a lack of mystery to pull him forward, it took a while for me to find that his issue was there wasn’t any emotional and internal side to a hook prologue. Honestly I don’t believe I really need to put that there because I want to drive confusion and interest from the two characters interacting not attachment because you’re going to a protagonist in a couple of paragraphs and I want the reader attached to him. Sometimes the people with the critical mind demand instant gratification of their standards, instead of suspending them to let the story build itself up to meet them slowly.
I deeply appreciate your thoughtful approach to this and your content in general. Super refreshing, insightful, and funny. I don't think I've come to the end of a video without learning something or seeing the subject in a new way. The "ambient TV" bit made me pause the video in a moment of existential sadness though lol. I have a deep suspicion that concept has to do with having a show with technically high viewing stats that can be used to pitch for advertisement dollars. If they can make a show that people just have on in the background, by all internal tracking metrics it should have higher "watch time" than something people are actually sitting down and paying attention to. Gaming the system to make money, not tell stories or make art. I hate it here.
I think the reason some people say they want to turn their brain off is because deep thinking seems too difficult. If you grow up on the internet, you don’t need to think; you can get approval from thousands of people on any opinion that you might come up with, thus removing the need for critical thinking. If you get used to not thinking or “turning your brain off,” it becomes difficult, confusing, and uncomfortable when you try to engage that part of your brain. This is one of the biggest problems in newer generations IMO. Also, growing up on the internet gives constant stimulation, so attention spans get reduced and the real world seems much more bland and empty than it is.
My partner is exactly number 6. I think you described it pretty well, but it's a lot more inadvertent for him than you made it sound. He has hyper-empathy, which means that movies really affect him. He doesn't like complicated movies with uncomfortable feelings in them, because it'll make him feel bad for the rest of the week! They watch a TV show about people who are dissatisfied with their life, and they start feeling dissatisfied with their life. They really do directly feel the emotions of people on screen. But if they can't get absorbed in a movie completely (for whatever reason), it's impossible for them to focus on it.
One aspect that you didn't really touch on as much is the level of craftsmanship and artistry that is put into other parts of the experience of the movie. For example, from the perspective of story the mario movie is extremely formulaic. But there was still a great level of care put into rendering the world of mario, incorporating iconic music tracks from the games, and choreography of the various actions scenes. This undertaking is by itself admirable and interesting, and is primarily what I drew enjoyment from.
You just solved the critic/fan review gap. Holy shit. I can't believe it! I understand the movie industry so well now! We need to have conversations about what makes a good movie and what makes a good story and understand they are different. A good movie doesnt need good story but good stories can be viewed in movies! What a great video. Thank you so much.
I really agree with and I really see the difference when I'm with my mom. She loves Emily in Paris and romantic comedies while I disliked them but watch them for her sake and because it's fun how bad they are. Then I managed to convince her of watching Spiderman: into the spider-verse. She's often quick to dismiss them because she doesn't like animation because it's "kid-stuff". But when we watched it she loved it! That's why I love the movie so much, it has a great balance between a good story, feeling and keeping the momentum and scratching the "itches" that come up during them movie.
this is a really cool thesis, great video!! by internalizing the points you've made, I feel like instead of being simply frustrated and feeling like "what the fuck am i missing why is hollywood so bad with such high budget?" about bad movies, i can maybe shift my focus to what the aim of the film actually is, even if it's not MY aim, and have a better experience if possible, or at least attempt to connect with it. the mario movie appeared to be a fun and plot-less nostalgic romp by the looks of the trailers, so when i saw it with a big friend group who all mutually expected it to be light-hearted fanfiction, we actually had a great time. can't say that about all of the other bad movies that left me feeling frustrated and despairing about the state of mainstream art. one thing i might offer in regards to your last question of why do people empathize even in bad narratives that don't give us reason to care - i think sometimes actors are just fantastic at making us feel things even when the narrative is shit simply because they're great at their job! for example, i'm sure emilia clark was not "connecting" to dany as a character in the final garbage fire of game of thrones - how could she, with writing so bad? she was most likely going to some dark place in herself and her own life to give us those emotions, and we're not crazy for potentially receiving it - she's just good at acting, and her job is transmit the theoretical emotional aim of the story. maybe it's one of the more rare reasons for people to connect emotionally in bad narratives but thought i'd offer it haha!
16:50 The "Mastery of the Formula" sounds like the Flow state that is used a lot in videogames. Which emerges when skills and challenges are on the same level.
I don't think #6 is that speculative at all. Almost everyone I know that enjoys movies that way are strong empaths. Hell, sometimes I watch react videos of movies/shows I consider to have bad stories because I like seeing these kinds of people get something emotional out of something I couldn't. My dad and spouse are like this, and I admire them for it. Reacting to every fictional event and character with ""what if this happened to me???" might be silly to me, but at least it lets me know the people I surround myself with have functioning mirror neurons - and there's something comfortable in being with that audience. I'd rather spend time with them than the online ranting geek screaming "ObJeCtIvElY gOoD" (really emphasizing the "moron" in "oxymoron" here) in my ear all day and tearing others apart for liking something.
I think the answer is because Mario is not a bad movie. It's a fun movie that wants to be a fun movie. A bad movie is a movie that doesn't accomplish its goal. If Mario had been just a badly written nostalgia bait people fans would have backlashed to it. I watched it expecting just a fun movie and I found a movie that was not only fun but a movie in which all the nostalgia baits and memberberries actually appeared to come from a place of love... That made me feel good about it. I totally appreciated that. An extreme opposite example is Ruby, I love Ruby's trailers because the fights were amazing, and they were done by the guy who made the Dead Fantasy videos which I loved... But then I watched it and the storyline and plot was SOOOOO bad... That I just watched the fight compilations from it because I couldn't take how bad the writing was (sorry is there's Ruby fans there). Now, I do agree that the Mario movie knows it's for ADHD kids and adults and needs to keep their attention. I did wanted more story (or more character development) but I didn't need it to appreciate it. I guess movies need to do what they set up to do.
The older I get, the more I find myself liking "bad" movies. Thing is, I don't have time to hate movies anymore. I've got real problems, and I just want to have some fun before I have to go back to dealing with them. I wasn't always like this. I was a teen during the early days of internet reviewers - I still remember watching the early episodes of the Nostalgia Critic *shudder*. And for a long time, I got angry at bad video games and bad movies, I duscussed them on forums, went out of my way to look for reviews bashing them so I can feel vindicated in my superior taste and storytelling prowess... But once I started university, got a job, had some stuff happen IRL, I just couldn't be bothered anymore. I just didn't have the time. When it came to entertainment, I just wanted a brief moment of escapism. These days, due to my schedule I almost never go to the cinema and I rarely have the mental energy to sit down and play a new video game. So, on the rare occasions when I do, I try to meet the movie/game on its own terms. I try my hardest to come in with no expectations, because unless you're writing the story yourself, it's almost impossible for the story to meet your expectations. So, I "turn my brain off" and have some fun, before I have to go back in the real world and do the stuff that actually help me achieve a better life.
Ok, I can confirm another reason why we like bad movies. Before I went to college, my favorite movies were Back to the Future, Star Wars, and a mix of other sci-fi, action, and animated films. When I went through my first film class (as it was a required course for my animation degree) It was nothing as I originally thought. I thought it was just going to be a fun class where it was going to teach how they make movies, well they did that, but in a completely different way. Originally I watched a movie and enjoyed it because I related with the characters and the situations they were going through, not even ONCE did I EVER think that showing a closeup of a statue of a soldier holding a sword impaling a cat was supposed to mean male masculinity taking out female... eh... Yeah as you can see this was a taste of what our film teacher was teaching us; and though I officially lost all sense of innocence in my entire being by going through that course, I managed to get over it. But what I find crazy is how deep all of these film "professionals" get! I mean, dude, what is wrong with you?! How did you get fascist totalitarianism from seeing a block of cheese sitting on a plate!?!? I mean I get it, films can be used in an artistic sense to paint a deeper meaning, reflecting and criticizing different aspects of society. But... I'm not a film philosopher, I'm just a dude who just got 20 bucks and I want to do something fun, not have to sit around and dissect the living guts out of it for the next 4 hours! If this is what you do, more power to you, but for a lot of people out there, we just like to see exciting stories that engage us and take us away too far off, or maybe not too far, from our everyday lives, and experience a world of fantasy, adventure, and endless possibilities! That's why we like bad movies because they are like real life, sometimes things don't make sense, but things happen, and lots of times not for a good reason, nor can many of them be explained. Doesnt mean that we are dumb because we watch them, it's just our preference, as everyone has the right to choose to prefer that a piece of cheese is the physical representation of Dictatorship in human society.
I think 6 is about something a little different. It's esencionally a projection from what you saying, projecting character from the movie to your live, how would i feel, act etc. But I think it can work both ways, how can somebody drive a car witch is missing it's engine? Simple, they just have their own engine with them. Sometimes parts witch story lucks are just bring by the audience. People will not ask why should they care about fridged love interest, if they project upon the story their reasons to care about their love interest. I think does are just to sides of the same coin, how audience projections and personal experience can effect their enjoyment of a movie.
This is a really good approach to trying to understand something you just don’t get. Cause I didn’t really “get” the Mario movie either. It wasn’t my thing. But I really enjoyed how you broke down this trend and why people may enjoy these types of movies! Many of the categories you talked about can be shown in the phenomenon of how people will always love to read some good old fashion fluff about their favorite characters in fanfiction. People will flock to that stuff like crazy. And nothing even has to happen in those fanfics! Just fluff! And people will still read it! They just want to see their faves more. And for something like seeing your favorite characters do more things and just get to “spend more time in the sun”, reboots or adaptations are the perfect vehicles for doing exactly that.
Nice to see an Atrioc reference after all the drama, he’s done a lot to fix the damage he’s done and i hope he is able to make a comeback to the platform, either way great video, made me think of movies in a way i wouldnt have otherwise
My take on this, and I'm writing this before watching the video, is that with movies like this, where the plot really doesn't mean much and the fan service rules supreme, we intentionally or not try to bring out and satisfy that inner child or just relive the moments we had as children when we were introduced to these kinds of games. I remember really enjoying both Sonic movies, even if they weren't good cinema, they were done with enough respect to the source material, that it managed to bring out that child in me that was introduced with Sonic for the first time and fell in love with it.
I think we’ve just gotten to the point where we’re all so critical and expect BIG AMAZING MASTERPIECES of stories but it’s like- sometimes people just want fun without all the heavy emotion and story or character arcs. Sometimes people just want something that is feel good and let’s u escape from the world and turn ur brain off for a little.
I think it helps to have some consistency in at least keeping an overall story good. This video is lacking an MCU sized hole for how consistently bad to mediocre the movies are with a few exceptions. You do kind of have to turn your brain off for some parts, though. I also don't really understand the counterintuitive notion that good storytelling doesn't get used as much in pop culturally relevant stories.
@@sunphoenix1231 that’s fine! But I’m not always going to theaters and expecting a cultural masterpiece from every film I go to. Sometimes I just expect a good time, cuz sure a bad movie is bad but a boring movie is worse.
@DoveLove it kind of depends for me, I'm not sure how you categorize boring and bad. I actually really liked the super Mario movie. Movies don't have to be deep and complex, but at least visually or narratively interesting. I think Marvel has some of the most interesting stories, and for whatever reason, Marvel feels like they don't do the more interesting things.
thank you for addressing this, I have been feeling alone in this topic and I am tired of not liking what my friends recommend but not really knowing why.
I can confirm that I was on the 6th category. I remember crying at Suicide Squad when one of the characters sacrificed himself to save his newfound family. Now I can see that I cried because of the idea, and not because of the execution, and I think that is also something that happens with the prequel trilogy enjoyers. They like the idea, but don't pay attention to the execution
Maybe part of it is the immersion aspect, but more so the paradigm of it? Lemme explain. In stories, you are immersed in the character’s actions, the themes, overarching implications, etc., but in “bad” movies, it’s more like an theme park attraction. That’s not to say you can’t still be immersed, there’s engagement of your senses, catharsis and relatability etc. but at least for me, you’re more aware of the fact that people made the thing for you to enjoy specifically. You’re not supposed to treat it like a coherent narrative, it’s more like a collaboration akin to a DND friend session or something. In this case, the paradigm of ‘someone made this movie for this purpose’ makes you adjust your expectation of the experience; maybe even seeing something like the karts in the plot of the Mario movie makes you appreciative, because you are watching through the paradigm of ‘a team of people made this’ throughout the whole movie, and they added the karts for your enjoyment. This is juxtaposed in a “good” movie, where your focus would be more on the world of the movie, based specifically on what that world alone can do for you. Tl;dr - You enjoy one primarily because of what is given to you automatically, and you enjoy the other primarily because of what you get out of it on its own merit
youre right about the idenfication thing. i am also someone who favors story over everything, however i am quick to cry in particular. i've cried about tv commercials before. i cry during the same 3 scenes in big hero 6, no matter how many times i watch it. but i don't cry because the movie or commercial is particularly emotional. something about the situation strikes a chord. i am projecting my own experiences on what im watching, and that interpretation is what is causing the big reaction. someone getting a letter from someone they love in a commercial isnt sad, but i get emotional because i think about how i feel when i get a letter from someone i love (not that exactly but you get the gist). i think an example of this that most people can relate to is when dogs die in movies. most people don't fuck with scenes where a dog dies. the movie could suck, we could see the dog once, but most of us have had a dog and felt that love and deep connection with a pet, and unfortunatly, a lot of us have also lost a pet. for me, however, the story plays the role of like....rewatchability. a bad movie can make me cry, but i don't want to watch it again. it just made me cry in the moment. a good movie is engaging from start to finish, and i cry, but i also rewatch the movie over and over. the commercial made me cry and so did big hero six, but there's a reason i keep watching big hero six and dont give a fuck abt the commercial
so I wont lie, I watched this movie severely intoxicated. It was such an enjoyable experience for me. It’s crazy how different of an experience I had compared to my friends that said it was mid to bad
I just wanna say that your content is very good and I think a breath of fresh air in the vein of youtube analysis videos. Its not a bog-standard 'review'. Every video has us both coming out with something new and learning something. And you're also bold enough to approach topics that you may not quite understand on a first glance or viewing, or may not even agree with, in order to understand something. And I think we need more people like you on the platform honestly.
This right here is a damn good video. As someone who loves the Mario Movie, I think you got what most common people and critics would like, didn’t like, and everything in between. The story spice bit in particular was spot on imo. Personally, I would consider Mario under my own term called, "spectacle movies". Where its all focused on what the audience would love to see the most to be entertained and satisfied with their theater. I've seen this with recently with Top Gun Maverick (all Tom Cruise movies since Mission Impossible Ghost Protocall really), Illumination's Sing 2 and Minions 2, all the Lego Movies (spinoffs included), Avatar The Way of Water and even the Disney live action remakes, to name a few. All of them vary in overall quality, but their main goal is to find new ways the entertain the audience. Whether it's through the stories they tell, the worlds and settings they create, cool action, great filmmaking, entering a new medium entirely, etc. You can pick and choose what you like and dislike about them (like any movie) but those are they really stand out due to them being spectacles. Mario to me easily falls into this camp because all over on TH-cam and Twitter I've seen a ton of love and a ton of criticism. It all revolved around the things I just talked about. So, I definitely understand why people would say such things as, "This one character was too perfect" or "The story was too fast paced" because I can see that through line. Even though I see the vision the movie team was going for, but that goes to your point of the personal experience. So to conclude, movies like Mario a whole thing that I think we need more of in modern Hollywood. I think we need more stuff that's full with love, challenging what art is, and also what it means to be "good" for the audience.
This makes me wonder what the Mario movie sequel will be like as a "spectacle movie". I bet it'll bring in more Mario references that did not yet appear from its source material. Sometimes I wonder if they might improve on the film's story craft, or will we still see the same barebone storytelling for the sequel, but just more new characters appearing and more bigger stuff happening, like a galaxy expedition with Rosalina (Super Mario Galaxy the Movie).
@BuizelCream I feel wit 0:01 h the way they ended the first movie, they can really do anything for the sequel. If I were to guess their plans, I would say they will definitely try and make a better movie than the first, because all Illumination sequels do something to make them stand out from their predecessors. Some of those things lead to superior movies, I listed some of those in my og comment. But in terms in what I personally would want, a scale on par (if not a little bigger) with the first film, but is also an expansion of what the first film introduced. Add a few new characters and a theme that binds them all together, and I would like that final film.
A movie is like a coup. You can fill it to a point, before it overflows. If it overflows you'll have too much. Too much plot, filler, emotions, action, exposition, etc. makes the movie suck.
I find your theory interesting: people who react emotionally to all content (including shallower/formulaic stories), do so because they consciously identify with the characters and their emotions. As someone who was/can be one of those people, I'd say my experience is less of a conscious identifying with the characters, and more of a true immersion in the story. In a sense, this *is* turning off my brain, insofar as I (at times consciously, at times unconsciously) turn off the analytical/critical part of my brain, in favor of experiencing the story as if I myself am the protagonist. I can do this with books as well. When I watch a romcom, or a Marvel movie, I could think about all the ways the plot is hackneyed, how the characters are shallow & lack any meaningful development. Or, I can set intentions to simply immerse myself in the world, and enjoy that experience. There's definitely a bar under which this isn't doable - you won't catch me wiping a tear after watching The Room (tbh I couldn't get through the 1ˢᵗ 15 mins, the cringe is torture).
I'm in that 6th category - at least for me, it's exactly that, my brain is constantly making me go 'What would it feel like if that were happening to you, right now?' and even when I don't connect with a story or I think the overall narrative is dumb or poorly thought out with obvious plotholes, I'll still cry when they do the emotional fake-death scene, even though I know 100% that they're coming back in a second. Seeing the pain on the other character's faces makes me reflect on when I've felt grief, and it attaches to those REAL feelings from my real life and it genuinely hurts! I think it's something to do with an excess of mirror neurons from my adhd, read some really fascinating studies on it and it's really wild. Also - if you watch the anime haters 'attack on titan' series, one of the guys has the same thing actively happening to him and you can see it in real time. He has a hard time watching the gore and in like the fourth or fifth episode he describes the whole experience as 'feeling it like it was happening to him' and all the other guys are clearly not experiencing it in that way. I can't watch movies like the SAW franchise purely because of this; it'd be like signing up to actually experience two hours of physical torture for no reason, and why would I do that? I think it's amazing people can watch stuff and -not- think about what it would actually feel like, and have their brain sort of simulate that sensation or imagine that feeling. Must be very freeing in some ways, I guess? It sure makes things like gore less impactful...
Yes, I believe it depends a lot on how empathetic we are. There are people that don’t feel anything in scenes that I am almost crying when I watch them.
I find this fascinating as someone whose brain works the exact opposite way. I’m autistic and it’s a rare piece of media that can get me emotionally invested. It takes a lot of build up and good storytelling to actually feel immersed and I basically never cry when watching anything unless there is a ton of good set up. I’m not a big fan of horror stuff because it grosses me out, but I’ve got a surprisingly good tolerance for a lot of it because I naturally look at it all from a meta perspective. I get so caught up in the details of the writing, scoring, world-building, foreshadowing, etc that I basically can’t conceptualize actually experiencing the events in the real world. In someways I wish I could experience stories in a more immersive way, but it also sounds like it could get exhausting.
As someone who is definitely gets very engaged in the movies/shows that I watch, I think you are right about #6. I definitely connect with how the characters are feeling. I don't get super engaged in every movie (there are certainly things that would put me out of a story) but I think I tend to be very engaged. On a potentially related note I simply cannot watch any form of horror. Even non-horror that is mildly suspenseful is extremely difficult for me to deal with; I often have to skip forwards to see how it resolves before I can watch the content.
Great video, I don’t think I really understood before how technically a story could be secondary in a movie. The idea of the familiarity of a premise being the enjoyment also clicked. Those just aren’t the types of things I enjoy
that oda part i think is really sad,the man literally made the story worse in his own eyes because it wouldn't be as marketable which is honestly the true root to most bad writing ,it's not that artists don't wanna make good movies is that what they create has to be grinded down into whatever the executives think will make a more profitable product,not a better one,
I'd love a video about the "so bad it's good" movies. It's a weird type of comedy because it feels very different from everything else on a meta level. Really interesting how it works with suspension of disbelief (or lack thereof) and the appeal there, which I totally get but not sure why.
Why i love the movie? The music is orchestral film music but mixed with the sound of these games which is something "new". I also loved the pace of it, its like listening to nightcore, lots of energy (tho quality goes down), gives me dopamine. And ive spent a lot of hours playing mario games in my childhood. And the people around me being happy in the theater made me happy. But, nothing these days compares to Arcane. Thats why i love watching you because you see how amazing Arcane is.
That "emotional experience through identification" point is really interesting; I'm definitely one of "those people." I think it's pretty accurate to say that it's getting feelings directly from the characters, or, like, sympathetically, or whatever? It feels so natural to me, in fact, that others can come across as jaded or callous just because they don't react that way. As humans, I think it's kind of natural for us to perceive other people having feelings and relate to them in a way that may cause us to share them, on some level.
Shows like ARCANE make up for all the intellectually and emotionally empty entertainment out there. Every day I thank god that someone out there still sees value in making content like that.
"Oops, accidentally made a good movie! Time to make it bad so kids like it!"
That reminds me of the process Kung Fu Panda went through. Basically, at first, the writers and director wanted to make a goofy animal movie starring Jack Black as a martial arts obsessed panda, but then, somewhere along the way, they went "what if we.... make it good?", and then it turned into one of Dreamworks' best movies.
Then it became iconic people are stupid to think they have to sacrifice story so kids would like it.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 well with less story you will have more time to put in cool action scene or fart joke.
@@pamelotms5867 Fart "jokes" are AT BEST someone worming their fetish into kids media. They aren't funny, even to small children.
And then they made sequels and said oops all bangers. I love all 3 Kung Fu Panda movie.
@@dakotadouglas5896 3 is a pretty hard nose dive compared to the other 2. Although still a great movie, especially by todays standards. It's ridden with "kid" humor and you can tell a lot less work was put into the plot and relationships
This is something I’ve discovered with my Mom. I tried to show her Arcane recently, mainly because she’s the type that disregards all animation as ‘for kids’ and I thought she would appreciate something that broke that mold. But she couldn’t follow it to save her life. She couldn’t distinguish between shimmer and hextech, she couldn’t remember anybody’s name, she kept mixing up plot points, she was just completely lost. That’s when it hit me that we look to entertainment for totally different purposes. I use it for emotional investment and appreciation of art, she uses it to relax and relate to the ‘real world.’ She’s not looking for depth or story, she wants easy hits of dopamine to float on while she drifts between tasks. Apparently she’s not alone, if she’s become the target demographic of streaming giants.
I suppose it's also an age thing. I used to really like deep philosophical stories that would get me invested as a child or a university student, but as an adult I don't want to get invested any more, because then there is a chance I won't land on my feet the next morning for my work and that'll be a problem as I have responsibilities, I have to be present and not thinking about imaginary stuff. Plus as an adult you can create your own unique story in your life and don't need fantasies as much as when you were a kid, your life was restricted and you could not take full control.
I showed Arcane to my mom and she loved it. She also loved Avatar the Last Airbender. She also loves cheap TV. Humans contain multitudes IG.
Same with my mum! I was so disappointed. All she did was look at her phone… it was honestly pretty upsetting but I understand that she doesn’t have to like it. I just wish she payed attention for *at least* episode one. But no, nothing.
@@theaveragecomment1014 This hurts to read. I have very strong feelings about how people should respond when someone makes a bid to connect via art they enjoy. I am sorry you had this experience.
This sums it up pretty well.
But not everything needs to be deep like perhaps Arcane. Sometimes simplified fun is what one needs. Personally, I'll take both.
As a writer myself who's currently creating his own manga, I like to think i've currently got a fair amount of knowledge due to intensive studying ( And your video's, thank you, Schnee! ) on creating well structured, organized stories. And what i often find myself experiencing ever since i took writing a lot more seriously, is something i like to call: ''The Writers Curse''
Where it becomes very difficult for me to simply enjoy bad shows and films. But even well written ones at times. Rather than taking it all in and emerging myself like child me would do. it's like my mind is constantly scanning and searching for bad pacing, Plot holes and contrivances.
So when i sat there watching the Mario movie with my buddy, i began to feel like Anton Ego from Ratatouille. while all the children and even some adults were having a blast. it's like i suddenly remembered that the Movie was trying to make the audience have a huge amount of fun. And in a way, the ''Bad writing'' kind of helped it do that. It's like the writers wanted to fill the cup with 100 percent Fun. no space for ''Deep emotional moments.'' or ''complex arcs''. All fun. it was one big mario themed rollercoaster. *That* was it's goal. And that's when i understood the division in how the film was recieved.
Writing wise, It might not have been a very good movie. But it was a *great* Mario Movie.
I'm not a writer but I felt like this watching the mario movie. I admit that the nostalgia got me at some moments because it is fun to see something you enjoyed so much when you were a kid turned into a movie but when it finished I felt very empty inside, yet the people in my theater seemed to be mostly enjoying it. Same with Avatar, the girl sitting at my side started crying when Jake's son died but I just wanted the movie to end because i could no longer stand it
that right here ^
You understood it all, that is it. It is purposely made that way. And if you play games you know those parts are not so important because the engagement with the story and characters don’t come from emotional and deep moments of the characters, but because you feel part of the adventure when you are playing. For example I loved the series Arcane because of the writing, the profoundness and the characters and I also loved the Mario movie because took me to the games and fun I had when I was a child. I am able to separate my personal emotional being that loved this movie, and also the more critic watcher I have inside. I can totally see why it is disliked by the critics and why I loved it even with that.
In moments I felt the dialogue bland, and cut it off too fast and it kind of bothered me a little in some parts (Mario meeting the princess and Mario with DK in the fish, specially) but that didn’t make me appreciate the movie less, and at the end I was very satisfied with the conclusion of the movie. Is a very good movie about Mario, and also not a very good movie in terms of cinema appreciation or profound writing.
I totally agree with all that!
This is such an incredible point. I have trouble getting into things, partially for the same reason as you, and partially because ADHD makes me worry about devoting time to something when I don't know if it will be worth it. But there's one thing I've always tried to keep in mind, that you pointed out with this comment. Sometimes it's not about whether something is 'good' by my standards. It's about if it's enjoyable, it's about if somebody out there liked it, it's about if it resonates with ONE person and that alone is enough for it to exist
Sometimes everyone is excited about stuff cuz it’s fun, and sometimes your the only one who doesn’t like it cuz it’s stupid
Straight up. It feels like the entertainment but especially movie industry is in this grumpy teenager phase where critics get pissed off any time something isn't super serious and deep because it's not 'adult' and 'good' in the technical sense, but if they just stop being whiny and egotistical for a few minutes they'll see that it's okay to just fucking have fun
I wonder if that's why I always hated Will Ferrel movies when so many people just thought they were hilarious. I always thought he was just stupid and just played the dumb "fish out of water so does moronic things" in every movie
I just rewatched The Dark Knight trilogy recently then I watched Batman Forever and Batman And Robin for the first time. I enjoyed the latter films more because they were just fun and colorful. though, in terms of quality, The Dark Knight is definitely better, Batman Forever was more entertaining IMO.
I watch rio 2 15 times since I don't give crap of what critics say, let full grown adult enjoy colorful music with talking animals with some collage ecology reference.
I think unilaterally looking at either side here and calling it the truth is reductive. At the risk of "both sides"ing yet another topic.
Like, yes. Some people will *just have fun* with something that is "bad writing" or "bad filmmaking". The people who are just having fun are entitled to their fun and no amount of critical analysis can take it away (and, in fact, as schnee does in this video, there ought to be some actual serious critical analysis devoted to why these people are having fun in spite of the "bad"ness). And. And! Just because people are having fun with something doesn't make it immune to real critical analysis.
My wife is very empathetic, she really has a hard time not investing in characters’ turmoil regardless of the context. I mean, I’ve seen her cry during a radio commercial. This is a huge superpower irl because she can extend a level of understanding and mercy to hurting people that I’ll just never have access to. I think what you are describing is essentially the way “empaths” experience most everything in their world.
That's pretty cool
Yeah I learned how to cry tears-dramatically-rolling-down-my-cheek-SILENTLY style bc I am very empathetic and cry at almost everything (I cried to the Pixar short Bao before the main movie even started 😭) and I didn’t like my brother pointing it out in theaters bc he would constantly cry-check me 😤. But I’m not as shy about it anymore and just like feeling sneaky 😊
I'm like this too but think it's the music that's getting to me. Is she like this without the music too? If she hears that a stranger stubbed their toe, does she well up?
@@terranovarubacha5473 Sometimes yeah, like when I see someone get hurt on a funny fails video and go, "Oooo," I'm just laughing. But when she says, "Ooooo" sometimes you can see on her face that she is really fealing it, you know? Like her brain just automatically imagines and to an extent simulates what their pain would feel like. But, no it's not all the time. And , wierdly no, music isn't a big part of it. She's not typically as impacted by music as.
I'm the type that gets teary on the 500th viewing of Up, will audibly sob during several points in Endgame and, while I don't enjoy the Titanic, tear up just thinking about the ending. To me, it doesn't matter how good or bad a film is. As long as it has characters who go through something I can empathise with, I'll be sobbing in the cinema seat
This reminds me of something Roger Ebert once said about how people go to see bad movies because they are comfortable with the idea they won't be disappointed, but can be apprehensive about seeing good movies, because they worry they'll be wasting their time.
Ebert really understood what it means to be a critic and understanding how art affects human emotion, even if its not his emotions.
So many critics are just incredibly dumb and self centered, they understand nothing that doesn't appeal directly to THEM.
@@pax6833 I know what you mean. My favorite quote of his is "I don't care what's it's about, I care how it's about it." I try to remember that. More people should I think.
I believe the Mario movie is good in the sense that it doesn't pretend to have great writing or excellent storytelling, focusing more on its relationship with the games it is based on. I doubt that people liked the Rainbow Road scene just because it looks cool... at least for me, that scene is intertwined with hours of races with friends, laughter, and amusing moments. The movie simply pays homage to its source material, without pretending to be anything more or less. For my part, I appreciate the honesty and simplicity once in a while.
here's the thing, it wasn't really marketed that way. Even coming in knowing it wouldn't be great, I still was left with feeling disappointed. Campy and fun movies should exist, but when a movie that butchers the source material pretty bad while also just giving nothing after spending a bagillion dollars on making it, I just didn't have any fun. I tried, but it was like they made a different movie and slapped the characters onto it like an afterthought.
After reading these two comments it makes sense, most people appreciate the movie for the charm, the animation and for what it went for, which was basically make a Mario movie, just for fun
But there's also people who feel it didn't offer much or it was paced poorly and was just another nostalgia attention grabber.
While I respect and understand both view points, keep in mind these are completely subjective ways to see it, most people will appreciate it and others will not as much, it's all based of your own personal way of watching a movie. Nothing objectively bad or good about it
I saw people get outright mad at critics for not praising this movie though. If they knew they were watching a guilty pleasure, a stupid but fun pandering to their nostalgia, wouldn't they outright expect critics to be harsh on the Mario movie?
@@unvergebeneid A lot of reaction to critics and criticism is mostly emotional and kinda irrational, no one that actually thought about it should have been angry really.
No criticism of anything really should make anyone angry. Because it's either valid and you can learn or useless and you can just dismiss it but being angry that someone has a thought process to why they didn't like a show, even if you liked it, is kinda childish.
To add to the Emily in Paris thing: When pitching a kids cartoon to Netflix, many animators said that Netflix asks it to be "more like the Boss Baby"
Say it ain't so 💀
Then you laugh at them
Dear god no.
No make it more like Ghibli, more like AtLA, why Boss Baby TT
Some movies are for story some movies like HP, Uper Mario, pixel, etc. are a celebration of a shared cultural experience (ie video game you played or book you read growing up).
It's enjoyable to watch Mario kart bc you sunk hours into rainbow road and you are celebrating that shared experience
ooh "shared cultural experience" LOVE how you put that!
Bingo! It's basically archetypal at this point..
Pixels is just plain bad but Mario at least tried to be a good movie
@@Mr_bukowski4435I mean I watched pixels and enjoyed it for the comedy, the action sequences and the references, I just respect the effort put into the art of the arcade based enemies.
I understand it's not everyone's cup of tea but at least there's some people like me who can see some good within it
You nailed it on the identification thing. I'm a really empathetic person and I am completely unable to distinguish good movies from bad movies. And a lot of that comes down to the fact that I am simply unable to see a character as a "badly-written" or "unrealistic" character. I see them as people, I see them as "maybe they're a little weird but some people are a little weird" and I empathize with all their experiences even if they are contrived. Especially if they're suffering. I see Anakin say "I hate sand" and I'm like "I'm so sorry you had to grow up on a sand planet and that you have so many terrible memories there, I can't imagine what that's like" etc.
OMG SAME. I watch something and then find out it's considered 'a bad movie/story' and I'm always like WHAT?
Number 5 is quite evolutionary, we get a spike of "happy hormones" when we predict something because not so long ago our very survival depended how well we can predict the weather, possible predator attacks, how much food to store for the winter and so on. That's also why people like to listen to the same songs over and over again (oh the chorus is about to start! it started! nailed it!).
probably wouldn't point to evolutionary psychology for that answer, we get dopamine for entirely current and applicable situations, such as being right about something. theres no evidence to suggest it's evolutionary at all, its a defunct science
I listen to the same playlist over and over when I work because when my brain can predict what comes next, it frees up processing power I use for focusing on the task. It literally distracts my mind so I can get to the flow state faster. Very useful
Technically this applies to "Good" movies we watch over and over again. Maybe the first time it was all about how great the story was, but the tenth time you're watching a movie, no matter how good, you are officially just farming that dopamine.
@@MasonLopezI have watched arcane 4 times.
First time.
Second time I did it to try and find small things like eatereggs or things I missed.
Third time was for an exam project.
Fourth was with my family bc i showed them it, and they somehow enjoyed it. Tho my mom barely paid any attention lol.
Personally, I didn't walk into the Mario Movie expecting a cinematic masterpiece. I came looking for a fun time with a bunch of references that I coukd just turn my brain off for an hour and a half to pretty colors and at least decent music.
And that's about what I got to be honest. The music was better than expected (the orchestral version of the Super Star theme at the end was shockingly good), the plot didn't have any glaringly obvious plotholes as far as I could tell, the references, while a bit forced, never got obnoxious, Donkey Kong was fun, the Luma was fun, Jack Black's Bowser was fun-ny. It was definitely a family movie that parents and older siblings wouldn't have to grin and bear through, and that's all it needed to be.
So you came looking for a bad movie lol. The point of the video stands
@@TalosBjorn You also missed the point of the video lol
@@TalosBjorn did you watch the video? Bad story ≠ bad movie
I have a similar experience to Rio 2 since it was made for biology majors - so many ecology references and rarely seen animals that zoology nerd can figure out
@@TalosBjorn that's not at all what they said
I think you are a unique TH-camr. Since the awesome analysis of Arcane to this. You could simply could have done a video explaining why is bad (a lot of other content creators have done this…), but you sincerely tried to understand why people genuinely like this movie. I understood more about this with this video so thank you so much!
Your speculative part I think that also has to do with the actors capacity of deliver a performance that is believable to some people, and the thing about identifying with the characters themselves. And also, some people are more empathetic than others, I see an actor crying in some context and that immediately puts me emotional even in a bad story. But in some movies that the actors are not so good in deliver the emotions or the script is too bad (like in rings of Power) I don’t feel anything at all, and I don’t care about the characters. I think that the performance of the actors, voice actors and even the animation when it is animation has to do with this.
Something else worth mentioning: this also applies to other aspects of presentation. Things like music, cinematography, maybe its animation, but the way i perceive a scene very much affects how it makes me feel. I scene i think is god awful writing might have a beautiful soundtrack that makes me feel things even if i think its stupid.
I really appreciate how you actually spent time trying to understand this phenomena, and not simply dismissing it explaining why you didn’t like it. It’s very easy to pick things apart, and it’s easy to mention a few things you like. I love that you never get hung up in details when analysing movies and series, but rather discuss the broad themes. And if you discuss details, you do it deep and thoroughly.
I especially dislike when people hate on music for being bad. “Oh all of the popular music nowadays is trash”. No, it’s not inherently bad, you simply don’t like it. People can enjoy songs because of the lyrics, the rhythm, the melody, the beat, the feelings it invokes or for its genius composition. Few songs are objectively bad in all of these aspects.
That's what I love about Schnee. It's so easy to dismiss people who like "bad" things as stupid or "uncultured", but Schnee doesn't do that. He took the hard route of analyzing this from an observer POV, without downplaying the thing
@@joganesha4151 Yeah, I love that schnee's first response to not liking something is never "why did that suck?" but rather "why did that make me feel this way?" He seemingly-instinctually interrogates his own biases in a way that few critics (and almost no other TH-camrs) do.
Yes! I really like Post Modern Jukebox, and the amount of times people in the comments complain about modern music sucking...UGH. It's so hypocritical because they're a modern band adapting modern music, yet people act like their music is definitive proof that music sucks nowadays. :/
I will say I do feel especially antagonistic towards music played on popular radio stations. I feel as though they fail to be good at any of the things you mentioned. And I understand that the reason people listen to it is because of the comfort of predictability, but I feel that if so it fundamentally fails as music.
In the case of Mario, I would say it's because people appreciate a movie that clearly was made with love for the fans and the franchise it was working with. Similar to Top Gun: Maverick and Hogwarts Legacy. When you don't insult the fans and show respect for the IP you are working with, then you earn the respect of the audience and make bank. Your average person doesn't put value into what critics have to say anymore.
Nintendo?? love for the fans?? that... doesn't compute fam
@@null6209 Now I am no expert but from what I understand, typically there are a bunch of actual people with names and their own ideas who make movies. Nintendo movies and Nintendo games aren’t made by an anthropomorphic Nintendo logo in a suit (at least not yet).
Nintendo’s corporate model and the actual artists who work on their products are basically polar opposites. Which is why Nintendo can both be the most toxic anti-fan company on the planet and still have some of the most beloved IPs in existence.
Sometimes you like it because of how it is experienced by you at that time. You get meaning out of it, and enjoy it. Who is the authority on good movies? Who has the right to tell us what to like?
YES THIS RIGHT HERE
also.....the blatant political biases on certain critic channels is undermining their credibility.....
that 6th category literally just blew my mind- it explains why my family gets physically upsset at things like action scenes even though they know it's about to happen and have seen scenes like that multiple times before (i.e. a car crash or stabbing). they're putting themselves in that situation and that's why it annoys me when they "overreact" lol. really great video, a lot of the movies you showed here i really enjoyed and now im thinking about why i actually liked them!
I am that kind of person tbh. I can't stand war movies at all, I literally start to panic. My mom jokes that I was a soldier in a past life because I can't handle it, lol. Gunshots scary.
Or it could be that they are religious and are against violence in fiction that's
Just my opinion.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 bro i'm talking about my own family and ik for a fact they're not religious lmao
@@deferr42
I just made a assumption, because
it's usually religious people who get upset about fictional violence.
Using story as a secondary movie element is such a surprisingly good take. I had a sudden flashback to so many movies I liked for some reason, that this helped me understand better
Hm...it reminds me of an old adage when it comes to stories in video games: they're not needed to have fun, but they do enhance it. And maybe that's an approach filmmakers need to take more? After all, movies are just another form of entertainment, even if it makes us cry.
Well if it's a movie you lind of need a story or it's just Animation and music
With no meaning.
@@elongatedmanforever1252 Need, yes, but how much of the movie IS just the story?
@@SobiTheRobot
Most of it.
Dude i love all of your analysis, so good, no toxicity no entitlement, no rage bait.
Really good
Im really proud of you for actively trying to understand people you disagree with. We need more of that nowadays.
For that, you have +1 sub
Bad movies are fun to watch with your pals and family to pick apart, and just laugh at, for the sheer absurdity!
Absurdity is the core of modern humor
I'll admit me and my buddies were joking about bowser's singing in the mario movie.
This is basically the joy of Mystery Science Theatre 3000.
That's just really sad
It sounds like a pretty strange phenomenon at first, but it kind of makes sense when you really think about how comedies and humor works.
Extremely abnormal things that we would normally never expect have been constantly used to make audiences laugh. The horribly over the top personalities of characters like Jack Horner or Glenn Quagmire, or the sheer insanity of the things that happen in each and every episode of South Park are a perfect example of that. And the fact that these things go way too far is what makes them feel so absurd, and therefore, so funny. They really feel like they shouldn't exist in this way, yet they still do anyway, and we just can't help but laugh at that.
Bad movies absolutely make use of this too. I consider Birdemic one of the most memorable and funny movies I've ever seen, specifically because of the ridiculousness of the notion, that there was a giant team of paid professionals that went "Yup, this is great!", and went on to publish that movie (...and partially because I've watched it with my family and friends during vacation, so it was sort of a big event for me, but I digress). It just seems logically impossible to have a n actual serious movie that is this bad in every way imaginable, that you're guaranteed to get caught off guard by it, which is how it gets you to laugh so much.
And animated movie ripoffs get even better, since they get to throw in some of the worst looking animation you've ever seen too. They don't take themselves as seriously as Birdemic does, though, which makes them loose a bit of the irony that makes that movie funny, but I'd say you can still find a ton of humor in the sheer absurdity of the existence of movies like What's Up or Ratatoing.
And if all else fails, you can still watch a bunch of youtubers loosing their minds over trying to make sense of the ridiculousness of those movies. It's a lot of fun all around.
As the person that gets hit with the "oh, you. You're over thinking it," I 100% agree with your conclusion here. I like stories and I like all the nuance and depth that comes from a story so after I finish a movie, part of my fun is reflecting on the story.
That is NOT that case for a lot of movie goers. They want to relive a scene by talking about the explosions or the twist or the reveal or whatever. It's about the scenes. Not the storyline.
I watched Enchanted with a few friends who are big fans of the disney/pixar kids genre. As soon as the movie was over I explained my confusion with the plot and how the grandmother's backstory feels like something is missing. OR did the pursuers just not continue through the mountains? Did the mountains forming kill them? What happened? AND WHY? Why were they fleeing the bad guys? Who were they?
All of which got me slapped with the "oh so it wasn't violent enough for you? You wanted more of the violent scene?"
We also watched Coco (new to me - not my friends who were rewatching it). My friend threw her pillow at me when I called the plot twist within 30 mins.
If you're a writer or a story nerd who enjoys picking apart narratives, figuring out the plot and reflecting on it is part of your fun. For most other viewers, they want to just sit down and let the movie take the reigns.
What's awesome about this phenomena is it demonstrates how different we all are and how we experience things differently.
Sometimes it is just that emotions overshadow logical thinking
I would also add to the "identification" Part. Sometimes is even more than "what if I was in the character's place", and it's more that the character or the story REMINDS people of things they experienced already, and the film, as bad as it could be, is able to trigger a response because of an emotional experience of the person watching it.
I never cried when a character died, if it happened it was extremely rare, but since one of my parents passed out, I now cry every time, even in normal scenes where a random parent is just being nice;
not necessarily bc the story or the character is well written, but because it triggered a personal experience.
Not saying this is always the case with everyone, but that's my two cents.
That happened when I went to see Moana. When her grandmother died I couldn't stop my tears because my relationship with my grandmother was like Moana's and I lost her the year prior.
Understandable and I'm sorry to hear that but for some of us it really is as simple as that what if we just empathize perhaps too easy(for me even if a story is bad and I'm not enjoying it or really relating to the characters it can still probably make me cry regardless if it tries even a little bit)
@@toekneemart5597 totally understandable
There are no bad movies, just boring ones. Movies are experiences, and like experiences, certain people vibe with whatever is intriguing to them.
Yess, if a movie drops off somewhere, in pace, story whatever, it *can* (emphesis: CAN) become boring!
And if the boring things become a trend across the same franchise, they often become problems, become less interesting and then people stop watching
The FIFA example made me laugh. That answer usually instantly kills the "do you like gaming?" conversation
Exactly, cause bascally no one who has really gotten into gaming would say fifa first when asked.
That part hit me harder than it should, cuz just last week I had this convo with a colleague of mine. I laughed but I also cried a bit inside
Its the awkward shuffle away from the the person who says fifa when asked that question. I've watched it happen in real time. Total mood killer sometimes.
@@sololeveling7390 I mean I play 2K, but that's just a conversation killer.
"Oh yeah I love playing candy crush"
Them: 'You're overthinking it; you can't analyze our bad movies and get anything out of it."
Schnee: "Hold my beer."
As an elder millenial who was once a young boy, I can _definitely_ confirm that explosive fight sequences between comically overpowered characters "gets their veins pumping".
If you were a boy between the ages of 9 and 14 when Dragon Ball Z became popular in the West, _nothing_ got you more hyped up on a Saturday morning than seeing if the climactic battle they'd been teasing for the last six episodes was _finally_ going to happen.
Most times, it didn't. But when it _did,_ oh boy... you'd be bouncing off the walls with adrenaline for hours after.
I like "bad" movies specifically because I know they're going to follow a set of rules, even if there is a good story line that has twists and stuff, it isn't going to really shock me, emotionally. I already have a lot of emotional stress in my life, and when I'm watching a movie or show or whatever, I'm looking to *escape* that stress. Shows like Arcane, while undoubtedly a brilliant work of art and phenomenal storytelling, have the ability to emotionally cripple me for days, sometimes even weeks, because I sympathize too easily with the characters and what they're going through. Formulaic movies and shows are safer, things like princess or hero movies, games made into movies, they're going to follow rules--no one is going to die or suffer in a way that won't be emotionally resolved through the movie, and most if not all of the movie is going to be a cheerful experience that allows me to not feel bad for the runtime. Because of this, I actually get upset when movies break the mold. I saw Infinity War in theaters, and I was so unprepared for it that I no longer watch Marvel movies in theaters because they're no longer a guaranteed formula. When a movie or show is different and has engaging storytelling, it requires more mental and emotional effort to consume, and I need to be prepared for that to really enjoy the experience.
i feel this in a lot of ways. i still love watching shows like arcane or seeing a really deep movie like spiderverse but its kinda like food moods where these really heavy hitting shows are the heavy foods and often i just want something light. ive found myself somewhat recently getting back into anime but instead of seeking out the good ones everyone loves ive been watching the cookie cutter power fantasies that i know empty but they still are just kinda fun for me and i know exactly what im getting myself into and that ill get exactly what i ask for. sometimes u just wanna eat ur shitty junkfood and i think thats okay
@@gildedmelody786 are you me? because we have like the same mentality when it comes to anime lol
@@acorn861 oh no are we the reason sucky anime exists? we are the target audience
I feel the exact same way as you do, but the difference with me is that... I LIKE to be emotionally crippled for days. It causes my mind to analyze, speculate and theorize. Emotions turn into ideas. This is my ticket to being invested in the media I consume.
The emotional cripple I get doesn't affect me emotionally that spirals down my life, rather it turns into inspiration to create something out of it.
But I do have friends who can't take heavy emotional impacts like these. It's not their cup of tea, and I respect that.
Now I'm kinda curious for Schnee's analysis of something like Mad Max Fury Road. Something with very simple turn-my-brain-off plot, but surprisingly deep worldbuilding and storytelling stuff under the hood
Yeah, sometimes the story is very simple but the end result is very compelling
Turn your brain off specifically means to ignore logical fallacies or sloppy writing; not simplistic story telling.
Pixar stories are usually not referred to as 'turn your brain off' movies because, in spite of being simple, they're strong and well made.
By contrast, transformers movies (a common turn-your-brain-off series), have a ton of story events, plot twists, and characters arcs, but they're not well constructed.
mad max fury road still carries emotions across it and a whole lot of minute storytelling beats that keep the viewer engaged. The action and reaction tension and conflicts carry the show. The world building that almost sounds barebones-- happens in a desert is used enough to show how nature could be dangerous and how humans adapt to it. It's a well made movie storywise even if the plot is very little and the characters don't use dialogue often
@@Spaceisprettybig exactly this. A simple story isn't bad. A story that contradicts itself is bad. Nobody will complain that a magic fantasy has a wizard who casts a spell. They WILL complain if the story says you need a wand to cast a spell and then the MC casts a spell without a wand.
It's my experience that people don't really distinguish between a movie that makes them feel good because it's written well and a movie that makes them feel good because it makes their brain light up. I remembered talking to a guy I worked with about the Ghostbusters 2016 movie, and he said 'I don't remember what happened in that movie, but I remembered liking it, so it's a good movie.' I think we see a lot of 'bad' movies these days (or cheaply written ones) because it's ultimately easier to write 'stuff people like' as opposed to good reasons for people to do cool stuff.
So kids like seeing two powerful forces fighting each other…but some how that can’t exist in a “good story”…which means…
Instructions unclear, showed my 6 year old Berserk.
That kid is going to grow up so strong.
I thoroughly enoyed the Mario Movie, but largely because I was at a Party screening at an Alamo Drafthouse where my friends and I were able to laugh, talk, make jokes, and generally enjoy the references and bait in our own way. I said to a few friends that it's not a movie I'd consider a masterpiece in any regard, but rather a fun couple hours to kill, something I'd put on for kids and maybe rewatch myself once or twice.
I really appreciate the look into what makes different pieces of art good for different reasons. Something I've been trying to put into words for a long time myself. There's a lot of stories that people rag on for being bad in X way and I've always tried to find a good way to express that while one story might have plotholes you could drive a truck through, that doesn't disqualify it from being good. Some stories are fine with plotholes, others rely on their tight, well-executed plot to function. Depends on what the draw is. Same concept can be expanded out to any specific thing that makes a movie good.
This video is really good, lot of questions most people are to dismissive or lazy to ask, the job or a writter/critic should always include trying to understand things outside of our understanding or media, and this is one of the first times i see someone genuenly trying to do that.
Great video!! Even though Mario wasn't my favorite movie I still had a blast lol. Thanks for making this Schnee!!!!!
The Mario Movie did not "turn my brain off," in fact quite the opposite. For me, what made the Mario Movie as amazing as it was had nothing to do with the general story or even the action itself, but rather the references. Every second of the movie my eyes were open searching for little details and hints that didn't need to be there. What makes the Mario Movie awesome is that they put genuine care into it, to make it as faithful to the original reference material as possible while simultaneously doing their own thing.
The story was even that bad, it was just generic. But yeah, the story wasn't the focus it was the characters and the world they live in. The story was there as a means to provide that context to those events that give call-backs and respect to the thing its representing. Any long term Mario fan knows that story is never the focus in the games as well, and is only really there to justify the events taking place.
The animation is really good too. Even without the story, references, and everything else, the movie still looks great.
@@katiecramton6336 That's still my definition of 'brain off entertainment' honestly. It's still watching the movie for very specific things rather than a whole. 'Brain off' for cool scenes and moments, 'Brain on' for story structure and deeper meanings, and I would lump finding cool references in 'brain off' entertainment imo, they're like mini-scenes
You articulated my concern about critics not understanding why I enjoy certain movies and declaring them bad. Even though some are still bad for what they are even trying do. I can now use this as a reference .
Hi Schnee. Long-time listener, first time caller. Grateful for this videos for the lenses that you propose we look through. Insightful as ever.
I find myself wanting to reject the premise that people enjoying these "short attention span", "over-stimulating lights and sounds", "theme-park ride" type movies is only an issue of taste. To me, it feels like an intentional dumbing down... keeping people on milk, unable to progress to solid foods. I like the food analogy; it's not just a matter of taste, but of substance.
The motivating force behind engagement in a movie - the "itchiness" of an unresolved story or arc seems to be replaced in some, by an abject terror- the horror of boredom. The former fosters a patience and tolerance of discordant emotions. The latter glorifies the shallow comfort of distraction. I dont believe it's fair to say we are getting an equivalent movie-going experience.
You have asked that we challenge our preconception of what movies can be. I just dont want to consider that movies can be so much less.
It is easy enough for me to recognize that these movies are not "for me". Far be it from me to not let people enjoy what they enjoy. I'm hoping you can rebut this uncomfortable snap judgement thats lingering. Im not usually so elitist about my interests...
An abject terror of boredom, that feels right on the nail.
I think you can synthesize the two approaches: ask what function a phenomenon is serving, while also questioning if that functioning is the best in a moral sense? To analogize to psychology: just because a coping mechanism serves a load-bearing function doesn't mean it's healthy.
So looking at these sorts of movies, we've got some common threads: a fear of boredom or lack or maybe even complexity, a need for order and nostalgia, repetition and familiarity and turning one's brain off. And then, I think, we can look at the world we live in: one that's horribly complex, terrifying, changing all the time, while so much that we love and rely on (whether it's religion, community, family or just people we look up to) falls apart under the onslaught of change and new perspectives.
Now, I think much of this process is good for us: so much of what we have built our society on is harmful, so much needs to be brought to light, we need deep systemic and cultural change if we are to survive or find meaning in this world. BUT all this is SO difficult to deal with as a person, humans were NOT optimized for thorough cultural overhaul in the space of a generation or two, this is insane, and being terrified and overwhelmed and confused is an entirely reasonable response. And wanting SOMETHING that's predictable, fun, uncomplicated, shallowly emotional, stimulating enough to drown out any distractions makes perfect sense.
(And it's not just other people, I find myself in desperate need of that sort of distraction sometimes, even tho I'm terrible at turning my brain off so it's difficult to let it work.)
Back to your maybe-implicit question (I'm wondering about it): is it elitist to call all this bad? My take for the moment, which will likely evolve as I digest the video further, is that you're rather right about it being a substance thing. I think there is moral value in being able to wait for things, to handle complex emotions, to process complex ideas, to critique things and expect quality... but, like any degree of personal growth, those things are difficult. I find myself in this position. Rewatching Arcane teaches me so much, but it's so emotionally intense that it drains me, I want to watch schnee's long analysis methodology video, but that's too much for my limited bandwidth to handle, so I rewatch the shorter videos I already know.
So I think it's something that just being morally judgy about doesn't really help (I'd say that about most problems). Instead, for myself, I'm trying to figure out: how do I cultivate the energy, the inner quiet, the attention to sit down and read books again, to think deeply about stuff more often like I want to? That's a work in progress. And I'd speculatively analogize that to society: if we want quieter, more complex, more meaningful stories to be more prevalent, that's not just an art thing, we need to cultivate a society that can AFFORD that kind of investment into art.
That's one angle on the question on the question, anyway.
I think it's all down to personal views and taste in film. Not to mention, I think if you like parts of a movie, that can help as well. And if you like ENOUGH of those parts, then that makes up the sum of the whole, and thus the movie is enjoyable for the viewer. I'll use a movie that I like for example that a lot of others don't.
From personal experience, I quite like _Star Wars: The Last Jedi._ It's a movie that's *VERY* *_VERY_* divisive in the Star Wars fandom. But where others hate it for one reason or another, I like it. I like the ideas it sets up, I like the character interactions of Luke, Rey and Ben. I like that it kinda knocks Rey down quite a bit mentally, so seeing her save the rebellion at the end is a nice moment. Rey as a character has a lot of potential, especially when it comes to her mental fortitude or lack of it, given that she questions herself a lot especially in _The Rise of Skywalker_ and given how stubborn she is. There's a lot to work with there.
I like that it paints someone like Luke Skywalker in a morally gray light which is super fascinating considering who his father was. Especially makes sense if you've seen how Anakin is in the Clone Wars. I love the cinematography, I love the action, and I love the score. I love Luke's character arc as well, and his last stand scene is outright gorgeous and iconic. And even referenced in The Clone Wars s7. The plot admittedly, falls flat in the end, where Rey doesn't take Ben's hand, something she should've done, but other than that, I really do love TLJ because it breaks the mold for Star Wars. We hadn't seen that done since the Clone Wars.
Now for movies that are GENERALLY seen as bad, such as the _Transformers_ films, I can outright admit they aren't the greatest plot wise. But I'm not about to sit here either, and disregard all the work put into those films, especially the first one given it came out in 2007 and the CGI still holds up to this day. The score is also stunning for those movies as well, Steve Jablonsky is very underrated and should be getting more work.
Another movie that's generally seen as a weak film, is the _Cars_ trilogy. The trilogy as a whole is often regarded as the worst of Pixar's lineup, when I just don't think that's the case. The movies are basic and simple sure I can admit that. But the first and third movies have a lot of passion to them, and often times, when it comes to criticism of the franchise, that passion for racing and animation is overlooked and ignored which I don't really agree with. You can tell the first and third movies have a lot of heart to them. That kind of heart and passion, should be acknowledged in your criticism, because people worked hard to bring this story to life. Even if it didn't work for you personally, to disregard all that effort, again just doesn't sit right with me.
When it comes to liking bad movies, I think what happens, is people can overlook the bad, if there's enough good in it. A movie is only as good as the parts that make up the entire thing anyways; cinematography, acting, action sequences, reveals, twists and turns, the plot itself, characterization, pacing, writing, costume design, editing, sound design, sound mixing, visual effects....if enough of these things can be good to someone, then well that movie will be a good time.
I think critics do get hung up on particular aspects like story and ignore all the other passion in it. It's like in art school when teachers say a comic or illustration isn't art. They don't see what they specifically want and brand the whole thing bad. It's like seeing an apple with a spot on it and tossing the whole thing out. It doesn't matter if you are going to turn the apple into a pie, and you can just cut off the bad part even if you just want to eat it that way. An apple rotten all the way through is no use to anyone (movies like Transformers: Age of Extinction are the best example), but critics sometimes are too stringent on only wanting their perfect apple.
for me a bad film i like is thor the dark world. God that movie is overall kinda shit but i only put it on for loki, his characterisation and the sibling interactions with thor. its fun to laugh at whatever the fuck he’s doing especialy since i can’t take it seriously as that movie exists SOLELY to introduce the reality stone into the mcu.
as far as the last jedi goes, i dont really hate the movie itsef, i think the biggest issue is the amount if rules and history that was already set up in the star wars universe that were broken in that movie. at least, this is why i disliked it (also the choreography was pretty bad tbh)
As someone who cries at many, many stories...it was really interesting to hear your point #6! At least for me, you hit the nail on the head with the "what if?" concept, though personally, I don't so much think of my own life. Like seeing a character lose a family member doesn't make me think "this is like when we lost relative x, now I'm crying because I'm thinking about relative x" It's more like a highly empathetic perspective-taking where my brain puts itself into the character and imagines being them, having their life experiences, and feeling the weight of what this scene would mean to someone in that position. So I don't cry at EVERYTHING because there is no weight to that if the story was poorly-written or the scene wasn't executed well. But when those scenes do hit, they HIT
But see, my thing is... Couldn't you just have both? Like, both a blood pumping fight scene and a good story! Why does one have to exclude the other?! Literally, thank you for showing the bridge fight between Ekko and Jinx in Arcane (and that could be extended to all the fight scenes in Arcane btw), because I can assure you, it wouldn't have been nowhere near as iconic as it turned out to be, if Arcane didn't have a Masterpiece level story. People would've just been like "oh wow cool, I love what they did there with the animation, really clever, awesome" and that's it, but with the story Arcane has, that one fight scene ascends to ICONIC status. So like, I guess we live in a time where, for every Super Mario, Force Awakens, Marvel movie, Ghostbusters reboot, new Matrix, etc. We occasionally find/get diamonds like Arcane and The Last of Us in all this Hollywood mud💎
could a basketball game have a good story? yes, it could. and it would be great. stories have been made about games for decades, no matter the sport you like, i am certain you could think about a story happening in a game.
a good story can be, its just that it isn't the focus, it does not matter as much. not for these kinds of movies.
arcane? arcane is a story driven lol movie. not a lol movie with a story. you want to see what a lol movie with a story looks like? open the movie clips for RISE, Legends never die etc. arcane is not that. i don't like lol, and arcane is one of my favorite series
this does NOT mean that those clips are bad (and imo, they are exactly the same as the super mario movie, but short AF), just that they serve another purpose (in this case, providing a background for the song in a way that attaches it to the lol franchise)
TWO CAKES! But in reality while having both highly elevates stories where it works, in some it just won't serve the same purpose. It's okay to just be one or the other sometimes. That's what the video is getting at--just because it could have both doesn't mean it needs it, and just because it doesn't have both doesn't mean it's not worth enjoying. It's like how rollercoasters can have drops, loops, or both--it's not incomplete or less fun for the majority if it only has one, having both just makes for an extra spectacular ride
For the record, I did not enjoy the Star Wars sequels (but did watch them), enjoy most of the MCU movies but most are only "standard quality cinema" at best (and have given up on following along), and I enjoyed stuff like Arcane above all those properties immensely.
But a movie is a sum of many parts: music, visuals, characters, scenes, dialogue, humor, mystery, and yes, story. But the story is only 1 part of many, and it does take up space when you have a runtime of 1 hour and 45 minutes. The people making this movie decided they wanted more of everything else.
However, just having 20 loose scenes without any cohesion between them isn't good either, they do need SOME story. In this case however, it just needs to allow everything else to take place more naturally. It's a dumb story. It's a flat story. It's one you have seen play out 1.000.000 times before. But you have never seen king Bob-bomb get exploded, or Bowser's forces drive around in Mad-max style vehicles chasing after Mario. You have never seen a nihilistic Luma wish for death.
When you look at all the bad video game movies, you can clearly see where they failed: they failed to deliver on the fantasy, the feeling, of the original IP. The Halo series ruined master chief, they failed to deliver on the larger-than-life persona of the chief that made him such a memorable character. But the Mario movie got Mario RIGHT. It's Mario through and through, even though he has more personality than we have ever seen him have.
Yes, the story is a weak glue holding everything together. But it holds, and the entire picture is an incredibly fun and visually stimulating amusement park ride with funny momements. It was exactly what I expected, it was exactly what I wanted, and exactly what I got. So no, it's not a bad movie. A bad story? Yes, but not a bad experience and not a bad movie.
@@giliansterckx The part where you list the things we've never seen in a Mario game is probably one of the factors of a good video game adaption. Because when I think of a good adaption, it's not "alright how do we turn this video game experience into a movie exprience?" but more like, "okay, what are some of the things people have NEVER seen before in this video game franchise? And how do we make it interesting?" We've raced on goddamn rainbow road before but have you ever seen mad max racing on it?
I think it is just a case by case. An example I could think of is AOT. That anime is a heavy story driven with a lot of lore. It has to have a good story since that's why the audience is there. But that story driven vibe wouldn't work for a show like the way of the house husband or saki k where the main focus isn't the story. The scenarios and cheap fun are what people are looking for in those shows. I do like when shows have both and make it work. For example, romantic killer where it has goofy scenarios but great sub plot happening in the background.
I would say both are valid and it just depends what you are looking for. I think for me, I'm not seeing a clever use of both alot. I don't want to sit through a melodrama of exposition dumps but I also don't want to turn my brain off. I want a show that knows how to be serious but also not take itself too seriously and has fun with it.
As always, you managed to touch on an entire range of weirdly relatable points that I don't think are usually talked about. "Who said that movies have to tell a story" hits particularly close to home, because (perhaps as a leftover of my artsy phase) I still have a soft spot for pieces that experiment with the medium. From montages from the 20s, to George Lucas' weird film school experiments (and films like Koyaanisqatsi from the same era), to relatively modern "visual poetry" like the Kin triptich or The Fountain... I've since come to appreciate great stories, so much so that the idea of art steering away from them feels frustrating, but then I stop and remember that earlier sentiment. Perhaps there is indeed more to be found outside of the comfort zone.
I feel like you could make a video in reverse: “Why do some people like “good” movies?” I think that my enjoyment of entertainment is like yours, which I think is why I was drawn to your channel. I love shows like Arcane and Andor that have so much love and thought put into them. I keep wanting to share them with the people I care about, and what I’ve found is that my mom (who also loves hallmark) really loves these shows with me, while my best friend doesn’t end up continuing to watch them because he calls them “too big brain”. I feel like there is some cool analysis that could be done there
This is an interesting topic, I personally went into the Mario Movie expecting a simple story and a lot of fan service. Even knowing that my mind at times was still in there analyzing stuff when not distracted by the fan service. I got what I wanted while also still engaging in the part of me that likes to analyze stories.
I find story analysis to be fun in its own right but also have to the idea that some stories are better enjoyed as is but can be analyzed but not to the point of snobbery. I love Star Wars Episode 8 for the experience it is but I do know it is a mess of a plot and there were legitimate reasons for people to not like it.
Great breakdown of the different ways and reasons people enjoy movies of all types. A good story can never truly stand on its own and be good imo. It needs supporting structures to make it impactful, fun, exciting whatever you want it to be. We, as storytellers and writers, put stories on this pedestal but even in books a good story on its own will not engage your reader. You need other elements to make that story more impactful. You add themes and imagery. You add fluff or tension. There are very few stories that can’t be told in a few sentences. If all we focused on was story that’s all we’d get. It’s not about the story though. It’s about the Journey. It’s about the way the journey makes you feel, makes you think.
You know sometimes I think about Hardcore Henry. An Objectively Shallow and tasteless movie that only is violence 3D: The Movoe.
But then I remember it was just a good fun time. Even if technically it is a Bad Movie because it lacks a story and a lot of plot holes that are never explained. It is a movie that made me feel joy
Maybe because so many movies are utter shit so movies that are simply “bad” look like masterpieces in comparison?
I agree
I thought the Mario movie was badly written at first, but as i watched i understood that it wasnt Trying to be good or well paced, so i couldnt really get myself to judge it based on that. And as an artist, a lot of my enjoyment came from the visuals. I was analyzing the character design and environment the whole time, which made the movie a blast for me!
I personally didn't care about it.
I also tend to enjoy movies because if the artistic element. Which is why I like certain movies others don’t. I don’t necessarily always care about the story (unless it’s really really bad). And the art doesn’t always have to be animated; I like it when a movie has fantastic costumes or a brilliant score as well. 😄😊
this video is a masterclass in media literacy. perhaps one of my favourites from you 🐐
When I told people I watched the Mario movie I always answered the “how was it?” Question with: “It was such a dumb movie, but not in a bad way”.
I stand by that statement, it was bad, but it was honestly just a fun watch overall and made wonderful use of the voice acting cast somehow
1. Schnee, I love your analytical mind. I think the thousands of people that watch your videos like the way your breakdown things.
2. People like things that are familiar to them. We like to be nostalgic of our past. This is the #1 reason why there is a new Mario movie.
I can't believe everytime you show up you bring us something new and exciting, and to me always that experience of revelation. Tho in my personal experience watching movies, I don't need and complex story if the movie is not about that (comedy, etc) but a "bad story" (things that don't fit, potholes, characters acting out of their racional sense in the story) is distracting, is making noise in my head; like biting a grain of pepper, occupaing a place in my mouth where the flavor should go
I’m definitely one of those people you described who gets super emotional easily, even from bad movies. But I’m also a writer and really passionate about good storytelling, so when a scene tugs at my emotions without first setting up a good story to support it, I’m always annoyed by it. I kind of get angry at my own emotions for betraying me-for having the nerve to be activated in the middle of something so silly.
I guess I habitually zero in on the moment-what I perceive the characters to be feeling, justified or not-and can’t help but react to that, irrespective of the scenes that surround it. It’s a little like seeing a child cry over something silly-I don’t see the silly aspect of what they’re crying about, I only see that they’re hurting, and I respond to that. If they are crying about something silly, then hopefully I can help them calm down and see that everything’s really okay. But I see the pain first, not the cause.
But I absolutely, vehemently dislike movies that pull an emotional reaction out of me without earning it. Even though it works, I always feel like I’ve been manipulated afterwards. I want stories that make sense AND make me feel.
I like the way you put it. I find that emotional scenes that evoke strong reaction in movies, but fail to have a story building up to it, feels unearned. This is where my own story analysis in me gets riled up to come up with solutions on how it could have been written better.
But I guess not all people have this eye of a writer. So, they will not be able to perceive the nuances we care about in the craft of storytelling.
However, I'm this kind of audience who doesn't easily become provoked with emotions when consuming a movie or series. I need strong storytelling to make me get invested in and feel those emotions, or else I'll passively watch the thing and might forget about it later. This is not fun to me. 😅
I've always hated pandering movies where it feels like they're just dangling keys in front of you. Especially when I was a kid. it felt like being talked down to and it drove me mad. To be fair, my favorite movie at 6 years old was Oh Brother Where Art Thou.
It wasn't until I was an adult I actually appreciated these kinds of movies more. Not all clearly (looking at you DreamWorks) but appreciating the art choices and creative twists on a familiar path. I'm still a lot more entertained with trailblazing stories with well written characters, but there is something to an experience movie and I feel like you nailed it
The "familiar thing that comforts me and I want to spend some more time with" makes so much sense. I routinelly have really bad episodes of head scratching when poeple around me want so much to see old Dragon Ball Z episodes, new movies of Mario, even more Star Wars crap or yet another foútbol game... such things bore me soooo much. Instead I'm constantly searching for "weird", "inusual", "bold", "snobby", "artsy", "independent" or "experimental" stuff.
I objectively don't share the same background as my peers, so, if the parameter is familiarity and comfort, it makes total sense we don't like the same stuff.
Thanks for this video. My girlfriend and I are on the two different sides of the spectrum and it can be difficult sometimes, but this video helped me understand her point of view more.
I'm the kind of person who used to equate movies with story and I got so mad when people didn't understand why a movie was not good by my standards. I've chilled out about it recently but you only just made me realize why. Knowing that these are just types of movies that I don't like and not necessarily abhorrent garbage gives me a bit of peace, weirdly enough
completely agree
I came back to this video to watch the part about category 6 again. I've been crying yesterday throughout the last 100 pages of a novel I didn't think was even that great, and I couldn't help but think about your take on identification. I suddenly realize why I'm invested in so many "technically bad" shows haha
I don’t know if this would apply to all videogame adaptations but I do think it definitely applies to the Super Mario movie and the reason I think so is because I had a similar experience with the recent Mortal Kombat movie.
To preface, I am also a story over thinker so I understand exactly what you are talking about. But, I did like the Super Mario movie and I also liked the Mortal Kombat movie (another video game adaptation that was a “bad” movie but generally enjoyed by audiences).
The reason I liked both of these movies is because they were giving me what the original video games gave me, just in a different, more visually stimulating format. Neither of these games are known for their stories. I play Mario for the game mechanics, set piece and character designs, for the atmosphere of an adventure. I play Mortal Kombat for brutal fights with thematic gory fatalities. Both of these movies deliver on that front. They
don’t need to have a good story because the games themselves didn’t have good stories. Now i do think I could enjoy them even more if they gave me a good story to go along with it; after all I do connect with good stories more than anything else. But in these cases it wasn’t necessary.
I’ve been thinking about this concept for forever and you have completely narrowed it down in every aspect!
This is a masterpiece of a video
There is something I must say about the Mario karts solution: context can and I think did for that movie fix or negate something that could be bad writing by itself. What do we see a lot as we are introduced to Kong’s kingdom? The apes love using their karts, they are driving them instead of walking. So of course the king of the apes, who love karts, would say the solution is karts. It’s only bad writing if you have a high bar for suspension of disbelief, which is common among critics. It makes sense in its own world it’s consistent come to that world and culture the answer came from.
I think there’s an answer to one your premise questions of maybe you already wrote the movie off and called it bad and so it is bad for you: confirmation bias. If you go to the theater saying “this is a video game movie, video game movies have a history of being terrible, this is going to be a terrible movie.” You set your standards and bars really high for you to suspend your disbelief without knowing it. This makes any sharp corner the author railroading instead of you having theory of mind on a culture and saying “oh, of course, they’re going to make that left turn. They always make left turns.”
So you know where I’m coming from with this reasoning. I’ve had a writing critic/grumpy writing Coach and author go at me on writerscafe for something that needed work with actually having a scene and sequel structure, (or at least having more of the reaction part of the natural action reaction cycle,) but his immediate judgment was that I didn’t give enough in the beginning for his suspension of disbelief, and when I did, (by way of more information as his first comment lead me to believe,) there was a complaint of a lack of mystery to pull him forward, it took a while for me to find that his issue was there wasn’t any emotional and internal side to a hook prologue. Honestly I don’t believe I really need to put that there because I want to drive confusion and interest from the two characters interacting not attachment because you’re going to a protagonist in a couple of paragraphs and I want the reader attached to him.
Sometimes the people with the critical mind demand instant gratification of their standards, instead of suspending them to let the story build itself up to meet them slowly.
I deeply appreciate your thoughtful approach to this and your content in general. Super refreshing, insightful, and funny. I don't think I've come to the end of a video without learning something or seeing the subject in a new way.
The "ambient TV" bit made me pause the video in a moment of existential sadness though lol. I have a deep suspicion that concept has to do with having a show with technically high viewing stats that can be used to pitch for advertisement dollars.
If they can make a show that people just have on in the background, by all internal tracking metrics it should have higher "watch time" than something people are actually sitting down and paying attention to. Gaming the system to make money, not tell stories or make art. I hate it here.
I think the reason some people say they want to turn their brain off is because deep thinking seems too difficult. If you grow up on the internet, you don’t need to think; you can get approval from thousands of people on any opinion that you might come up with, thus removing the need for critical thinking. If you get used to not thinking or “turning your brain off,” it becomes difficult, confusing, and uncomfortable when you try to engage that part of your brain. This is one of the biggest problems in newer generations IMO. Also, growing up on the internet gives constant stimulation, so attention spans get reduced and the real world seems much more bland and empty than it is.
My partner is exactly number 6. I think you described it pretty well, but it's a lot more inadvertent for him than you made it sound. He has hyper-empathy, which means that movies really affect him. He doesn't like complicated movies with uncomfortable feelings in them, because it'll make him feel bad for the rest of the week! They watch a TV show about people who are dissatisfied with their life, and they start feeling dissatisfied with their life. They really do directly feel the emotions of people on screen. But if they can't get absorbed in a movie completely (for whatever reason), it's impossible for them to focus on it.
One aspect that you didn't really touch on as much is the level of craftsmanship and artistry that is put into other parts of the experience of the movie.
For example, from the perspective of story the mario movie is extremely formulaic. But there was still a great level of care put into rendering the world of mario, incorporating iconic music tracks from the games, and choreography of the various actions scenes. This undertaking is by itself admirable and interesting, and is primarily what I drew enjoyment from.
You just solved the critic/fan review gap. Holy shit. I can't believe it! I understand the movie industry so well now! We need to have conversations about what makes a good movie and what makes a good story and understand they are different. A good movie doesnt need good story but good stories can be viewed in movies!
What a great video. Thank you so much.
I really agree with and I really see the difference when I'm with my mom. She loves Emily in Paris and romantic comedies while I disliked them but watch them for her sake and because it's fun how bad they are. Then I managed to convince her of watching Spiderman: into the spider-verse. She's often quick to dismiss them because she doesn't like animation because it's "kid-stuff". But when we watched it she loved it! That's why I love the movie so much, it has a great balance between a good story, feeling and keeping the momentum and scratching the "itches" that come up during them movie.
this is a really cool thesis, great video!! by internalizing the points you've made, I feel like instead of being simply frustrated and feeling like "what the fuck am i missing why is hollywood so bad with such high budget?" about bad movies, i can maybe shift my focus to what the aim of the film actually is, even if it's not MY aim, and have a better experience if possible, or at least attempt to connect with it. the mario movie appeared to be a fun and plot-less nostalgic romp by the looks of the trailers, so when i saw it with a big friend group who all mutually expected it to be light-hearted fanfiction, we actually had a great time. can't say that about all of the other bad movies that left me feeling frustrated and despairing about the state of mainstream art.
one thing i might offer in regards to your last question of why do people empathize even in bad narratives that don't give us reason to care - i think sometimes actors are just fantastic at making us feel things even when the narrative is shit simply because they're great at their job! for example, i'm sure emilia clark was not "connecting" to dany as a character in the final garbage fire of game of thrones - how could she, with writing so bad? she was most likely going to some dark place in herself and her own life to give us those emotions, and we're not crazy for potentially receiving it - she's just good at acting, and her job is transmit the theoretical emotional aim of the story. maybe it's one of the more rare reasons for people to connect emotionally in bad narratives but thought i'd offer it haha!
16:50 The "Mastery of the Formula" sounds like the Flow state that is used a lot in videogames. Which emerges when skills and challenges are on the same level.
This explained so much that I’ve been struggling to understand, and it gave me the language to articulate some of my own experiences. Thank you!
I don't think #6 is that speculative at all. Almost everyone I know that enjoys movies that way are strong empaths. Hell, sometimes I watch react videos of movies/shows I consider to have bad stories because I like seeing these kinds of people get something emotional out of something I couldn't. My dad and spouse are like this, and I admire them for it. Reacting to every fictional event and character with ""what if this happened to me???" might be silly to me, but at least it lets me know the people I surround myself with have functioning mirror neurons - and there's something comfortable in being with that audience.
I'd rather spend time with them than the online ranting geek screaming "ObJeCtIvElY gOoD" (really emphasizing the "moron" in "oxymoron" here) in my ear all day and tearing others apart for liking something.
It's hard to find any TH-cam videos about stuff the creator didn't like with this much nuance. Greatly appreciated!
I love the Mario movie a lot because it’s a fun movie to watch. It really didn’t need a deep plot, just as long as it was a fun watch
I think the answer is because Mario is not a bad movie. It's a fun movie that wants to be a fun movie. A bad movie is a movie that doesn't accomplish its goal. If Mario had been just a badly written nostalgia bait people fans would have backlashed to it. I watched it expecting just a fun movie and I found a movie that was not only fun but a movie in which all the nostalgia baits and memberberries actually appeared to come from a place of love... That made me feel good about it. I totally appreciated that.
An extreme opposite example is Ruby, I love Ruby's trailers because the fights were amazing, and they were done by the guy who made the Dead Fantasy videos which I loved... But then I watched it and the storyline and plot was SOOOOO bad... That I just watched the fight compilations from it because I couldn't take how bad the writing was (sorry is there's Ruby fans there).
Now, I do agree that the Mario movie knows it's for ADHD kids and adults and needs to keep their attention.
I did wanted more story (or more character development) but I didn't need it to appreciate it.
I guess movies need to do what they set up to do.
The older I get, the more I find myself liking "bad" movies. Thing is, I don't have time to hate movies anymore. I've got real problems, and I just want to have some fun before I have to go back to dealing with them.
I wasn't always like this. I was a teen during the early days of internet reviewers - I still remember watching the early episodes of the Nostalgia Critic *shudder*.
And for a long time, I got angry at bad video games and bad movies, I duscussed them on forums, went out of my way to look for reviews bashing them so I can feel vindicated in my superior taste and storytelling prowess...
But once I started university, got a job, had some stuff happen IRL, I just couldn't be bothered anymore. I just didn't have the time.
When it came to entertainment, I just wanted a brief moment of escapism. These days, due to my schedule I almost never go to the cinema and I rarely have the mental energy to sit down and play a new video game.
So, on the rare occasions when I do, I try to meet the movie/game on its own terms. I try my hardest to come in with no expectations, because unless you're writing the story yourself, it's almost impossible for the story to meet your expectations.
So, I "turn my brain off" and have some fun, before I have to go back in the real world and do the stuff that actually help me achieve a better life.
Just in time!
Ok, I can confirm another reason why we like bad movies. Before I went to college, my favorite movies were Back to the Future, Star Wars, and a mix of other sci-fi, action, and animated films. When I went through my first film class (as it was a required course for my animation degree) It was nothing as I originally thought. I thought it was just going to be a fun class where it was going to teach how they make movies, well they did that, but in a completely different way. Originally I watched a movie and enjoyed it because I related with the characters and the situations they were going through, not even ONCE did I EVER think that showing a closeup of a statue of a soldier holding a sword impaling a cat was supposed to mean male masculinity taking out female... eh... Yeah as you can see this was a taste of what our film teacher was teaching us; and though I officially lost all sense of innocence in my entire being by going through that course, I managed to get over it. But what I find crazy is how deep all of these film "professionals" get! I mean, dude, what is wrong with you?! How did you get fascist totalitarianism from seeing a block of cheese sitting on a plate!?!? I mean I get it, films can be used in an artistic sense to paint a deeper meaning, reflecting and criticizing different aspects of society. But... I'm not a film philosopher, I'm just a dude who just got 20 bucks and I want to do something fun, not have to sit around and dissect the living guts out of it for the next 4 hours! If this is what you do, more power to you, but for a lot of people out there, we just like to see exciting stories that engage us and take us away too far off, or maybe not too far, from our everyday lives, and experience a world of fantasy, adventure, and endless possibilities! That's why we like bad movies because they are like real life, sometimes things don't make sense, but things happen, and lots of times not for a good reason, nor can many of them be explained. Doesnt mean that we are dumb because we watch them, it's just our preference, as everyone has the right to choose to prefer that a piece of cheese is the physical representation of Dictatorship in human society.
I think 6 is about something a little different. It's esencionally a projection from what you saying, projecting character from the movie to your live, how would i feel, act etc. But I think it can work both ways, how can somebody drive a car witch is missing it's engine? Simple, they just have their own engine with them. Sometimes parts witch story lucks are just bring by the audience. People will not ask why should they care about fridged love interest, if they project upon the story their reasons to care about their love interest. I think does are just to sides of the same coin, how audience projections and personal experience can effect their enjoyment of a movie.
This is a really good approach to trying to understand something you just don’t get. Cause I didn’t really “get” the Mario movie either. It wasn’t my thing. But I really enjoyed how you broke down this trend and why people may enjoy these types of movies!
Many of the categories you talked about can be shown in the phenomenon of how people will always love to read some good old fashion fluff about their favorite characters in fanfiction. People will flock to that stuff like crazy. And nothing even has to happen in those fanfics! Just fluff! And people will still read it! They just want to see their faves more. And for something like seeing your favorite characters do more things and just get to “spend more time in the sun”, reboots or adaptations are the perfect vehicles for doing exactly that.
Nice to see an Atrioc reference after all the drama, he’s done a lot to fix the damage he’s done and i hope he is able to make a comeback to the platform, either way great video, made me think of movies in a way i wouldnt have otherwise
My take on this, and I'm writing this before watching the video, is that with movies like this, where the plot really doesn't mean much and the fan service rules supreme, we intentionally or not try to bring out and satisfy that inner child or just relive the moments we had as children when we were introduced to these kinds of games. I remember really enjoying both Sonic movies, even if they weren't good cinema, they were done with enough respect to the source material, that it managed to bring out that child in me that was introduced with Sonic for the first time and fell in love with it.
I think we’ve just gotten to the point where we’re all so critical and expect BIG AMAZING MASTERPIECES of stories but it’s like- sometimes people just want fun without all the heavy emotion and story or character arcs. Sometimes people just want something that is feel good and let’s u escape from the world and turn ur brain off for a little.
I think it helps to have some consistency in at least keeping an overall story good. This video is lacking an MCU sized hole for how consistently bad to mediocre the movies are with a few exceptions. You do kind of have to turn your brain off for some parts, though. I also don't really understand the counterintuitive notion that good storytelling doesn't get used as much in pop culturally relevant stories.
I actually enjoy things when I use my brain.
@@sunphoenix1231 thank you.
@@sunphoenix1231 that’s fine! But I’m not always going to theaters and expecting a cultural masterpiece from every film I go to. Sometimes I just expect a good time, cuz sure a bad movie is bad but a boring movie is worse.
@DoveLove it kind of depends for me, I'm not sure how you categorize boring and bad. I actually really liked the super Mario movie. Movies don't have to be deep and complex, but at least visually or narratively interesting. I think Marvel has some of the most interesting stories, and for whatever reason, Marvel feels like they don't do the more interesting things.
thank you for addressing this, I have been feeling alone in this topic and I am tired of not liking what my friends recommend but not really knowing why.
I think most people have just finally realised that they're allowed to have fun without feeling guilty
I can admit that I like a bad movie for it's concepts and
Desire to see a better outcome
Some people just don't like
Admitting bad movies are bad.
I can confirm that I was on the 6th category. I remember crying at Suicide Squad when one of the characters sacrificed himself to save his newfound family. Now I can see that I cried because of the idea, and not because of the execution, and I think that is also something that happens with the prequel trilogy enjoyers. They like the idea, but don't pay attention to the execution
Maybe part of it is the immersion aspect, but more so the paradigm of it? Lemme explain. In stories, you are immersed in the character’s actions, the themes, overarching implications, etc., but in “bad” movies, it’s more like an theme park attraction. That’s not to say you can’t still be immersed, there’s engagement of your senses, catharsis and relatability etc. but at least for me, you’re more aware of the fact that people made the thing for you to enjoy specifically. You’re not supposed to treat it like a coherent narrative, it’s more like a collaboration akin to a DND friend session or something.
In this case, the paradigm of ‘someone made this movie for this purpose’ makes you adjust your expectation of the experience; maybe even seeing something like the karts in the plot of the Mario movie makes you appreciative, because you are watching through the paradigm of ‘a team of people made this’ throughout the whole movie, and they added the karts for your enjoyment. This is juxtaposed in a “good” movie, where your focus would be more on the world of the movie, based specifically on what that world alone can do for you.
Tl;dr - You enjoy one primarily because of what is given to you automatically, and you enjoy the other primarily because of what you get out of it on its own merit
youre right about the idenfication thing. i am also someone who favors story over everything, however i am quick to cry in particular. i've cried about tv commercials before. i cry during the same 3 scenes in big hero 6, no matter how many times i watch it. but i don't cry because the movie or commercial is particularly emotional. something about the situation strikes a chord. i am projecting my own experiences on what im watching, and that interpretation is what is causing the big reaction. someone getting a letter from someone they love in a commercial isnt sad, but i get emotional because i think about how i feel when i get a letter from someone i love (not that exactly but you get the gist). i think an example of this that most people can relate to is when dogs die in movies. most people don't fuck with scenes where a dog dies. the movie could suck, we could see the dog once, but most of us have had a dog and felt that love and deep connection with a pet, and unfortunatly, a lot of us have also lost a pet.
for me, however, the story plays the role of like....rewatchability. a bad movie can make me cry, but i don't want to watch it again. it just made me cry in the moment. a good movie is engaging from start to finish, and i cry, but i also rewatch the movie over and over. the commercial made me cry and so did big hero six, but there's a reason i keep watching big hero six and dont give a fuck abt the commercial
so I wont lie, I watched this movie severely intoxicated. It was such an enjoyable experience for me. It’s crazy how different of an experience I had compared to my friends that said it was mid to bad
lol there's the real 7th category i guess! XD
@@schnee1 Absolutely. Pre-gamed the Last Jedi pretty hard and actually had a good time lol.
@@RachelHouk-ng3ql
I have a good time dissecting it and tearing it apart.
I just wanna say that your content is very good and I think a breath of fresh air in the vein of youtube analysis videos. Its not a bog-standard 'review'. Every video has us both coming out with something new and learning something.
And you're also bold enough to approach topics that you may not quite understand on a first glance or viewing, or may not even agree with, in order to understand something. And I think we need more people like you on the platform honestly.
This right here is a damn good video. As someone who loves the Mario Movie, I think you got what most common people and critics would like, didn’t like, and everything in between. The story spice bit in particular was spot on imo.
Personally, I would consider Mario under my own term called, "spectacle movies". Where its all focused on what the audience would love to see the most to be entertained and satisfied with their theater. I've seen this with recently with Top Gun Maverick (all Tom Cruise movies since Mission Impossible Ghost Protocall really), Illumination's Sing 2 and Minions 2, all the Lego Movies (spinoffs included), Avatar The Way of Water and even the Disney live action remakes, to name a few. All of them vary in overall quality, but their main goal is to find new ways the entertain the audience. Whether it's through the stories they tell, the worlds and settings they create, cool action, great filmmaking, entering a new medium entirely, etc. You can pick and choose what you like and dislike about them (like any movie) but those are they really stand out due to them being spectacles.
Mario to me easily falls into this camp because all over on TH-cam and Twitter I've seen a ton of love and a ton of criticism. It all revolved around the things I just talked about. So, I definitely understand why people would say such things as, "This one character was too perfect" or "The story was too fast paced" because I can see that through line. Even though I see the vision the movie team was going for, but that goes to your point of the personal experience.
So to conclude, movies like Mario a whole thing that I think we need more of in modern Hollywood. I think we need more stuff that's full with love, challenging what art is, and also what it means to be "good" for the audience.
This makes me wonder what the Mario movie sequel will be like as a "spectacle movie". I bet it'll bring in more Mario references that did not yet appear from its source material.
Sometimes I wonder if they might improve on the film's story craft, or will we still see the same barebone storytelling for the sequel, but just more new characters appearing and more bigger stuff happening, like a galaxy expedition with Rosalina (Super Mario Galaxy the Movie).
@BuizelCream I feel wit 0:01 h the way they ended the first movie, they can really do anything for the sequel.
If I were to guess their plans, I would say they will definitely try and make a better movie than the first, because all Illumination sequels do something to make them stand out from their predecessors. Some of those things lead to superior movies, I listed some of those in my og comment.
But in terms in what I personally would want, a scale on par (if not a little bigger) with the first film, but is also an expansion of what the first film introduced. Add a few new characters and a theme that binds them all together, and I would like that final film.
I was having a hard time with your 2nd hazbin video, but re watching this video really helped me understand my conflict with them
A movie is like a coup. You can fill it to a point, before it overflows. If it overflows you'll have too much. Too much plot, filler, emotions, action, exposition, etc. makes the movie suck.
I find your theory interesting: people who react emotionally to all content (including shallower/formulaic stories), do so because they consciously identify with the characters and their emotions.
As someone who was/can be one of those people, I'd say my experience is less of a conscious identifying with the characters, and more of a true immersion in the story. In a sense, this *is* turning off my brain, insofar as I (at times consciously, at times unconsciously) turn off the analytical/critical part of my brain, in favor of experiencing the story as if I myself am the protagonist. I can do this with books as well.
When I watch a romcom, or a Marvel movie, I could think about all the ways the plot is hackneyed, how the characters are shallow & lack any meaningful development. Or, I can set intentions to simply immerse myself in the world, and enjoy that experience. There's definitely a bar under which this isn't doable - you won't catch me wiping a tear after watching The Room (tbh I couldn't get through the 1ˢᵗ 15 mins, the cringe is torture).
I'm in that 6th category - at least for me, it's exactly that, my brain is constantly making me go 'What would it feel like if that were happening to you, right now?' and even when I don't connect with a story or I think the overall narrative is dumb or poorly thought out with obvious plotholes, I'll still cry when they do the emotional fake-death scene, even though I know 100% that they're coming back in a second. Seeing the pain on the other character's faces makes me reflect on when I've felt grief, and it attaches to those REAL feelings from my real life and it genuinely hurts! I think it's something to do with an excess of mirror neurons from my adhd, read some really fascinating studies on it and it's really wild. Also - if you watch the anime haters 'attack on titan' series, one of the guys has the same thing actively happening to him and you can see it in real time. He has a hard time watching the gore and in like the fourth or fifth episode he describes the whole experience as 'feeling it like it was happening to him' and all the other guys are clearly not experiencing it in that way. I can't watch movies like the SAW franchise purely because of this; it'd be like signing up to actually experience two hours of physical torture for no reason, and why would I do that? I think it's amazing people can watch stuff and -not- think about what it would actually feel like, and have their brain sort of simulate that sensation or imagine that feeling. Must be very freeing in some ways, I guess? It sure makes things like gore less impactful...
Yes, I believe it depends a lot on how empathetic we are. There are people that don’t feel anything in scenes that I am almost crying when I watch them.
I find this fascinating as someone whose brain works the exact opposite way. I’m autistic and it’s a rare piece of media that can get me emotionally invested. It takes a lot of build up and good storytelling to actually feel immersed and I basically never cry when watching anything unless there is a ton of good set up. I’m not a big fan of horror stuff because it grosses me out, but I’ve got a surprisingly good tolerance for a lot of it because I naturally look at it all from a meta perspective. I get so caught up in the details of the writing, scoring, world-building, foreshadowing, etc that I basically can’t conceptualize actually experiencing the events in the real world.
In someways I wish I could experience stories in a more immersive way, but it also sounds like it could get exhausting.
As someone who is definitely gets very engaged in the movies/shows that I watch, I think you are right about #6. I definitely connect with how the characters are feeling. I don't get super engaged in every movie (there are certainly things that would put me out of a story) but I think I tend to be very engaged.
On a potentially related note I simply cannot watch any form of horror. Even non-horror that is mildly suspenseful is extremely difficult for me to deal with; I often have to skip forwards to see how it resolves before I can watch the content.
Plot twist: the movies aren't bad, the critics are just out of touch.
Great video, I don’t think I really understood before how technically a story could be secondary in a movie. The idea of the familiarity of a premise being the enjoyment also clicked. Those just aren’t the types of things I enjoy
that oda part i think is really sad,the man literally made the story worse in his own eyes because it wouldn't be as marketable
which is honestly the true root to most bad writing ,it's not that artists don't wanna make good movies is that what they create has to be grinded down into whatever the executives think will make a more profitable product,not a better one,
I'd love a video about the "so bad it's good" movies. It's a weird type of comedy because it feels very different from everything else on a meta level. Really interesting how it works with suspension of disbelief (or lack thereof) and the appeal there, which I totally get but not sure why.
Why i love the movie? The music is orchestral film music but mixed with the sound of these games which is something "new". I also loved the pace of it, its like listening to nightcore, lots of energy (tho quality goes down), gives me dopamine. And ive spent a lot of hours playing mario games in my childhood. And the people around me being happy in the theater made me happy. But, nothing these days compares to Arcane. Thats why i love watching you because you see how amazing Arcane is.
That "emotional experience through identification" point is really interesting; I'm definitely one of "those people." I think it's pretty accurate to say that it's getting feelings directly from the characters, or, like, sympathetically, or whatever? It feels so natural to me, in fact, that others can come across as jaded or callous just because they don't react that way. As humans, I think it's kind of natural for us to perceive other people having feelings and relate to them in a way that may cause us to share them, on some level.
Shows like ARCANE make up for all the intellectually and emotionally empty entertainment out there. Every day I thank god that someone out there still sees value in making content like that.