I was thinking how amazing this video would be with scenes from that episode .... You should soooo reupload this while its fresh! (if you have time, great video as always regardless!
That little scream escaping when Ellie witnessed someone taking themselves out was EXTREMELY natural and disturbing. I've heard people make that noise before, and I've made it myself. It cuts right into you as a human.
Ellie has never been annoying. She’s just a traumatized child that grew up in a post apocalyptic world. She uses humor and sarcasm to help her cope. She’s a real multifaceted character
The problem is that trauma was never mentioned in the series. There's a right way to use "show don't tell". But it was never shown nor told ever. She's just annoyingly mean for the sake of being a "teenager".
@Me to myself: I'm pretty sure everyone living in that universe is walking around with trauma, look what kind of world and monsters they have to survive living around. Everyone probably has severe PTSD at a minimum
Ellie may be a very normal teenager but I wouldn't call her dumb. She does prove to be intelligent in how she figures out Joel's smuggling code and in how she learns the skills necessary to survive
I completely agree that Ellie as a character is very intelligent, but I think calling her a 'dumb teenager' is referring more to her making decisions with a lack of knowledge or understanding of the consequences. For example her first time outside, where she had to be reigned in by the adults from possibly blowing their cover. It's not for a lack of intelligence, just understanding of the situation, as she's never experienced it before. The same way I'm sure the doctor at the end of the game was intelligent too but he didn't understand the consequences of trying to hold back Joel.
I honestly feel like way too many people unjustly criticize child and teen characters for being "annoying" - and I feel like that often comes from a place of not engaging with real children and teens. Are there bad writers that make them insufferable? Yeah, sure! But childhood comes with a lot of discoveries and curiosity and behaviours that haven't been corrected. It's especially wild to me how many fans criticized Ellie, for example, for showing clear signs of suffering from traumatic experiences. To mee, that's simply a realistic portrayal of a teenager carrying way more weight than they should have to. Some might no like it, but to say there's no character-driven, justifiable reasons of why a character is this way is frankly bewildering. This isn't a critique of your video! It's just something I've noticed throughout multiple media, and it bothers me so much! So sorry for venting, and thank you so much for uploading! I'm glad you addressed this in a more thought provoking way and offering a different perspective from what I usually see.
100% agree with this. From other stories I keep seeing child/teen characters who respond to trauma in a way that isn't "appealing" to the audience (like responding with anger or some other thing that isn't fear) get called annoying for acting that way when people like that do exist. And there being a pattern in some fandoms of criticizing female characters for no good reason, I don't know if that's going on here with Ellie but I feel it's worth mentioning. (Plus, as a teenager, I immediately connected/fell in love with Ellie's character because of the attitude and snarkiness, so maybe it can be argued there's some subjectiveness based on who your audience is)
totally agree! I'm really close to Ellie in age and I've always tried to avoid being the "stereotypical teen" even before I was a teen. I guess it's not the most harmful thing in the world, but I've definitely put very arbitrary limits on myself about how "mature" I'm supposed to be at certain ages and currently have a lot of unnecessary anxiety about enjoying certain things or behaving a certain way. and seeing the way Ellie and teenagers generally are talked about makes me feel genuinely kinda bad :/
*Cough Cough* the drinker *Cough Cough* Note : not saying i hate the drinker its just some of his criticism is pretty bad, case in point the knives out series where he has an obvious vendetta against the director.
Admittedly, the concept of children being distinct and separate from adults is a relatively recent line of thinking. For the longest time, kids were just considered little adults and even as someone who doesn't necessarily want my own kids, it's so frustrating to see adults being angry that kids are acting like children like that isn't exactly what they are.
i honestly never found her braindead or annoying at all, im surprised other people do. She's never aggressive without being treated aggressively first, she isnt afraid to ask questions instead of acting like she knows everything as many teens do, and she is really empathetic, optimistic, and brave as shown by how she empathizes with joel and how she tried to save sam and is unafraid of danger. I think you can say a lot of things about her but I dont personally feel like any of it as annoying
I thought the same thing! But there are definitely a lot of people annoyed with her too. They probably either don't interact with many young teens on a day to day or have tried to remove themselves from their teenage years so seeing one genuinely act like a teenager is annoying and off-putting. But that's just my armchair psych inferences.
She's also walks a very well crafted line where she still does some things with the brazenness of a child that isn't fully aware of their own mortality yet, but at the same time while she does those things she displays thoughtfulness and resourcefulness in how she goes about them.
I'm convinced the people who complain abt her personality in the show either don't remember how a realistic teenager acts, they expect every character to be cookie-cutter and agreeable even after they've endured all sorts of trauma, or they prefer the game version of Ellie who's basically the version of a teenage girl that adults can easily bond with bc she doesn't showcase any 'annoying' traits for the purpose of being a likable NPC companion.
i also think that an important part of Ellie's character is how she craves attention and relationships and life because she is immuned … everyone can die of the infection, except her, so she's terrified of being alone abover everything, worst than any other teenager, she needs to hang on to life because without that she's alone in world that is rotting away without her
Literally this!! We see this especially as she struggles with survivors guilt due to what happened to riley in episode 7, and she refuses to let it happen to joel, even to a point of denying the reality that Joel might die and there's nothing she could do about it if he did
I never found Ellie annoying. As a writer, she's fascinating to me, because NO ONE write's kids like that. Every last YA book out there, the Protag is a small adult. Ellie feels like a real teen to me, still young enough to have a childlike air around her, but mature enough that she's trying to come into her own as well. I think she's beautiful, and I absolutely love what Last of Us is doing with their story as well.
However almost every YA novel also isn't written as a present tense. Most of them feel like an adult pondering their younger years. Most of them are also older teens. If I'm not mistaken Ellie is 13 or 14 not 17 or 18. 17 year olds don't act like 13 year olds. As a 13 year old you are still not much more than a child and are expected to act like one. As a 17 year old you are expected to start acting like an adult because you are about to be one.
I actually find her quite anniying, but not in a way where I think that makes her a bad character, it's just that she has that type of annoying to her that anime protagonists have. What I noticed is that animes often have a protagonist that starts from a genuienly flawed point, unlike american cartoons where the protagonist is kinds weird, but cool and the world has yet to realize that this protagonist is to be appreciated. The growth of anime characters like Sailor Moon or Naruto is, that they both are children when they start, Sailor Moonnid shallow and doesn't want to do homework and runs from a fight the first few encounters, but through actual challenges and actual fights, she over time groes to understand the responsibility she carries snd understands what her duty is. The same goes for Naruto, who I find extremly annoying because I have adhd and just relate to him too much, I cringe so much and just want to shove my pills up his mouth! But I hear he too grows to understand what his priorities are and grows from a hot headed boy into a more mature and very relateable loveable hotheaded guy. And in that sense I think Ellie has the setup for depth. She has potential.
I particularly love how you said that Ellie and Joel's connection was made "because of her personality, not in spite of her personality". These are such simple words yet they really encapsulate why exactly I have found so so many relationships in stories to be disengaging, or feel like they've bridged the gap between them in a way that feels more cheap than earned. I really appreciate stories that don't shy away from any of the character's particular traits, or problems they might create within a relationship, and address all of it with how the conflict between the characters is resolved. it makes everything about the characters feel meaningful and important in one way or another. the more different your characters are from one another the more work it takes to pull this off but it feels so rewarding to watch when it happens
That cry Ellie gives when Henry dies gives me chills every. single. time. I think it was one of the most impactful moments of her character until now - you can see the foundation of her liveliness and teenage recklessness sort of die in that split second.
i think what’s also important to acknowledge is that a lot of these sort of “class clown” archetypes use their humor as a coping mechanism. while you see this sort of breakdown of a character a lot, i think when it’s done thoughtfully it really works because it’s real. i have a handful of friends that have lived through so much trauma and the way they get through hard situations is making light of it. i very much see that mirrored in ellie.
Bella Ramsey's performance as Ellie is so believable and true to how Ellie is in the game, i never found ellie annoying because she reminded me so much of teenage me and she's just a rebellious idiot kid. hell, i think the way they act as her is really damn accurate, especially their voice
I think the character that ellie reminds of is korra from legend or korra. From the beginning the best way to describe korra is that she was a punk that wanted to explore a new world. She was loud, arrogant, made bad decisions and so much more. But after season three were korra was at her lowest, were she lost all of those traits, broke me a little. To see someone so bright, innocent and adventurous lose everything that made korra herself. She got better and matured but still lost a part of her.
@@greygorygaming The definition of a Mary su is that a character has no faults, that they are perfect. Korra is the exact opposite of perfect. A mary su doesn't have ptsd. Aang is an actual gary stu. I'm sorry but aang randomly finding a giant sea turtle that tells him how to beat ozai without killing him.
@@stur3366 Yeah, that's not the definition of a Mary Sue, so carry on. You can't even get Aang's character right. Conflating characterization with lazy and rushed plot contrivences/coicedences from the very end of the series.
I think Ellie is a good character. She is annoyingly accurate as a teen, and when episode 7 rolled out expositing more of her backstory really made me like her more and makes me look forward to the final two episodes
I was really digging Ramsey's portrayal of Ellie a lot. But Episode 7, "Left Behind", was the one that TRULY solidified my love for her performance. Left Behind was always a part of the game that was near and dear to my heart. While I liked the episode well enough on a first viewing... I was unsure how I felt about it. Because of my love for the game's version of this segment, I was being too nitpicky and not judging this episode fairly by letting it be what it was. Then I rewatched it (while showing it to a friend. It was her first time watching it and she knows very little of the games). My opinions on the episode became clear and it shot up in my vague, personal ranking of the episodes. And it devastated me more this time around. It is such a beautiful, tender episode. With so many subtle moments that highlight who Ellie is. I loved the parallel of her holding hands with Riley, and later with Joel. She's lost too much. There's no way in hell she's gonna give up on Joel without a proper fight. Just like how the Left Behind DLC solidified my love for the character of Ellie, this episode reminded me of why I love the character of Ellie so much. She is very much like a real teenager (reminds me a lot of myself back then lol). She is bratty, doesn't follow orders all the time, she can be quick to anger (The show reveals how all of this comes from a place of fear of loneliness and abandonment). She's a truly sensitive person, despite the plucky exterior. She's someone who's only known a few joys, but that just makes her cherish what she has even more. She LOVES looking at and experiencing the beauty she can carve out in this decrepit world. And above all: She's someone who fights for every moment she can get with someone she cares for. She's also smart, and above all, she is brave as hell. Ramsey was phenomenal in this episode. Especially liked all the stolen glances at Riley, and then her face at the end as she stitches Joel up. Love how her face is full of desperation, but it can't help but betray some excitement and hope that this just might work. She's is killing it as Ellie. VERY excited for episode 8.
When you said "you know who's less annoying Joel, and we do not want to see Ellie become Joel" and realised that's exactly who she becomes in TLOU2, it broke my heart. Because you can see her losing more and more of herself and becoming him completely by the end and it's so sad. I love both games so much.
Thank you! I like her way more than Bella. Objectively, Bella is also a phenomenal actress, but subjectively there was something in her portrayal of Ellie I found really off-putting. She simply isn't Ellie to me. She's too bratty and mean at times and she looks waaaay too young (and yes I know the character is supposed to be young.)
i think we're harsh, as adults on the characters that are children -- especially when they're in that age of 12-16. It's something about that age gap that we expect more in the child character's actions or intellect (most of the time, it's just badly written and doesn't feel human) Given the difficulty of writing a character at that age, in a dystopian apocalyptic world, who's really never known much of anything else. That is a tall order. Given all that, I think they did pretty well.
Funny, I don't find her annoying. I think in any other setting I might but as you said, it works here. Top notch writing in making her so real, like she was written by an actual teenager.
I think the most beautiful scene in the show so far is the end scene in episode 4 when Ellie tells the diarrhea joke to Joel. He has already connected to her once before with the scarecrow pun, and other than that one he has just been annoyed by them. Then in that scene, he genuinely found the joke funny not expecting it at all. He was expecting one of her random questions and got a joke and started laughing. And Ellie was happy to finally have gotten him to laugh at one of her jokes. I wouldn’t say that was when their relationship changed, but I think it was definitely a milestone in it Edit: oops I wrote this before you addressed it in the video lol
She was quite sheltered growing up in the QZ, so that’s why she asks so many “GD questions” and just kids in general tend to do that. Her brain hasn’t fully developed yet, thus not having her critical thinking skills down-pat . The breaking David’s finger to get the keys was never going to work. since they were locked onto his belt loop, not fully thinking things through. But it could have been out of desperation sensing that her circumstances were dire and growing so being in the cage. Her figuring out the bill/Joel’s 80s code meaning was quite intelligent.
just a tiny thing I noticed: a lot of teenage characters in movies and shows tend to be annoying and unlikable because they try too hard to act like adults, and it’s normal for teens to do that, but it’s hard to like them when it’s all they try to do. and knowing that the character is obviously not mature enough to be an adult, they still try to act like one and it’s annoying. ellie doesn’t try to act like an adult; she just does her own thing
TV Ellie is also written slightly different than game Ellie though. She's a lot more level-headed in the game and was more immature at the beginning of the show.
When Ellie thinks her blood is going to cure Sam, that was for me the ultimate moment where we see, she is just a kid with a child's innocence, thinking this will cure Sam. It was a beautiful moment, where I remember saying "oh Ellie" not with judgement but with compassion. This show is just so good at reminding us Ellie is a kid, a very smart one and slightly annoying one but it fits. It shows her vulnerability that she desperately tries to hide. Yes, she can be a little bit annoying (like all teenagers), but I never found her annoying
at first i didnt like bella ramsey as ellie, but now i think they are perfect as ellie. i love game ellie, and like the actress better in her role, but bella ramsey portrays a 14 year old so much better and much more realistically. i dont know who to like more, but currently bella ramsey's ellie is perfect. i hope to see their talent in more movies
I never considered her annoying though some stunts like the piano I was definitely worried for her, knowing that making noise could bring them problems. I've also watched LP of the game though when it came out so that could be why. I never considered that people would dislike her.
a lot of "annoying" characters in media are characters i like. ive never understood when people dislike them xP i like ellie a lot, and dont even see any annoyingness to her at all. the way you seem to described "good annoying" is how I view the characters people call "bad annoying". and "good annoying" characters dont come off as annoying to me at all.
I like how Joel wants to grumble when Ellie break the mirror, but then remembers that there is no traffic anymore and like "Whatever, she can look in the mirror if she wants"
For one, she is playing a 14 year old character who is experiencing a lot of things for the very first time, like the pick up truck being a "space ship" to her. Another example is the escalator described by her as "electric stairs" . Some may find her character annoying. I do NOT. I love her character. She behaves like any teenager would in situations where you're experiencing things for the very first time. I also feel for her because she has lost people in her life to both death and being left behind. She seeks that family connection. She wants that close bond. And her and Joel are perfect, they have a great bond that's grown with each episode
The only bump in this road that can't be ignored is generational trauma which IS passed down and does f you up (trust me). For example, grandparents living through the depression (no food, money) become hoarders/clean your plate/etc. and then having grandchildren live in it. This changes your relationship with food, items, money and the concept of scarcity and being insecure. Generational trauma is something that never really ends until you sever that family link or get therapy - seriously. Love your vids btw!
i LOVE ellie, i loved her from the start and all the way til the end, and i loved her much more than i loved game!ellie. she's just perfectly written. i like how much of a gruntly teenager she is, i like that she's in enough of a mood enough of the time while also showing her innocence and excitement about life. i love that she doesn't shy away from injustice towards other people and herself, i love that she always stands up for herself and, like david says, she has a violent heart while also being so loving, loyal and people driven. i just LOVE that they made her such an ambivalent character in this sense, showing how she wishes she had a family and connection and had that from joel (even on a subconscious level) but makes him work for it too as she has to with him. it's a great and perfect portrayal of a teenager... how she can be so difficult to be around in some moments (like with the way she was talking back at tess) because she stands up for herself, showing the normal rebellious side most teenagers develop, and then have her in scenes where she's genuinely just a silly little kid like when they get into the hotel and she starts role playing with the bell. she's just so perfectly written, i could go on about her for hours because how much depth she has and how appealing she is.
I've grown to really love the videos where you analyse a certain character trait or archetype, like the annoying child character here. I'd absolutely watch a whole series focused on analyzing any kind of character type like this, whether it be something very broad like bravery or something specific like characters who are good at driving, or something.
I absolutely love how you break down writing tropes and tools, it's helped me to become a better writer and it puts a new perspective on how I think about storytelling in general. Thank you for that!
I've been watching your videos for a good time now and I must thank you because your breaking down of series, characters, and scenes helped me a lot with my writing. I am currently writing a book with dystopian vibes (not as far as world ending and mushroom zombies though) and it follows the story of a group of teenagers from 16 to 18 years old and how they deal with life without their families, without guidance (until someone shows up and helps them), how they deal with betrayal, death, pain and all that stuff. So this video helped me a lot. I also have a recommendation if you don't mind. You should watch good omens it's a comedy/fiction by it's honestly awesome. I was also curious from what, as a writer, I can learn from it. P.S. it's based of a book. Anyway, thanks so much. Keep doing what you do, and keep being You.
I never found Ellie annoying at all. I think the people that hate her character just dislike teenagers, because she’s written pretty realistically for a teenager going through an insane amount of stress and trauma
I think another underlaying factor why some people have found Ellie's character annoying is that fact that she's a teenage girl. Young girls are often dismissed as annoying and vapid because they're the antithesis of what the patriarchy deems as more important or valuable (stoicism, toughness, physical strength etc), traits that Joel shows. So in a way they see her as a hindrance to Joel even though he chose to help her. Her remaining innocence and curiosity at the world is interpreted into arrogance or bitchiness because she doesn't fully understand yet the real dangers or risks.
I never found Ellie annoying, ever. She did “grow” on me, but it really just went from feeling somewhat “neutral” about her to liking her to loving her.
It's really interesting for me to see the opinions of people who didn't play the game, who are experiencing this story for the first time. I think that you summed it up pretty well, at first, you think she's annoying and overconfident and kinda dumb, which she is. But then you see she goes through and what she's been through and, like Joel, she grows on you and you get attached.
I think TV Ellie is a bit unrealistic with her naivete and bubbliness but this isn't the actress fault it's actually how the TV show wrote her environment. The show has set up that somehow TV Ellie is super sheltered in Fedra when game Ellie wasn't. Game Ellie went to the streets, hung out with guards, and ran around at night so she got to see dead people, harsh treatment, gang like warfare, and she was trained how to kill & performed some at least campus security, TV Ellie seems to have missed all this training in 14 years they seem to not want to teach them to shoot, kill, or patrol till they're at least 16 and even then it seems like they're unwanting to based on how TV Riley was 17 -18 and was going to be posted & seemed like she didn't get training on killing or patrol at that point either so TV Fedra doesn't work well for the environment they're in these people are above ground Fallout and seem to not know but that's a show problem. They claimed they're understaffed they should be using the 10 -18 year old bracket to fill those positions post the adults in the streets, the kids for half the building and train them to do their jobs but they aren't. So given that TV Ellie grew up in nice TV Fedra it makes sense she's bubbly & naive and this is a TV writer's problem she should've seen the war outside her barracks but given she hasn't her personality matches that but if we go with she was suppose to be growing up in game Ellie's world her personality doesn't match that.
@@destroyraiden This is an interesting take on this. I'd argue that they are different because in the video game there's either infected, fedra, or someone else coming after them every five minutes, she'd need that experience in order to "realistically" survive, and I use the term realistic loosely since this is a video game we're talking about. However in the show I'd say that it's even more realistic in the combat seeing as they don't fight hoards of people head on and win, that just wouldn't happen in anything but a video game. I do have to agree that she probably should've had a bit more training in the ways of combat but she's also only 14 so she had a few more years before she aged out and we do see that Riley was more knowledgeable in this area so she obviously had more training that Ellie also would've likely had, had she stayed with Fedra. I don't think either interpretation of the character is worse or better, they were simply made for different mediums. Game and show Ellie share the same base personality and game Ellie is still naive and needs Joel to teach her how to survive, she still has never seen the outside world.
Great commentary One thing that seems obvious because you forget you're seeing it, but probably the central theme of the whole show is how you pointed out that Joel is deciding whether or not to rekindle his capacity to feel while protecting her capacity to feel
As a fifteen year old, Ellie felt exactly like so many people I know, and maybe even me a little bit. Edgy comebacks. Over confidence. Goofy nature. The Last of Us portrayed her really really well, I could see myself in her.
There's a trend of teenage girl characters that are written not to be timid, traditionally cutesy, potentially to be sexualized and there's an influx of mostly adult men (women too but less) who end up hating those girls. On top of my head Ahsoka. If you have a crumble of emotional intelligence (read brain) then they aren't annoying. The issue isn't the perfectly normal, partially flawed characters but the braindead audience. Not a critic of this video just wanted to get this off my chest
(Spoiler!!!) Something in my brain clicked when you say people don’t want to see Ellie loses her life and become Joel, and that’s I think part of the reason why TLOU part 2 was so divisive. I couldn’t put my hands on why I felt so stressful after playing part 2, until I saw what you said. The fact that Ellie was still consumed by vengeance despite having a decent life near the end of the game, breaks me. Part 2 honesty is a walking PTSD simulator. Still like it tho.
Something I'd like to point out is that Joel never hated Ellie. From the very beginning, he cared for her, but he was so terrified of repeating the cycle of meeting someone->getting attached->losing them. He pushed her away as it's his survival instinct to act cold and uncaring. I know this is nitpicky, I'd just like to mention this.
Spoilers ahead: I think we did see Ellie mature in the knew episode, even with the relationship with Joel. I really think that that episode has made an impact on her somehow (or at least traumatized her somehow , I mean- she almost gets “cut into little pieces”, got invited to a cannibal cult, had to take responsibility of Joel, beaten, and almost raped)
i'm a teenager watching the last of us and i agree so much with what you've said. i feel so seen by ellie because she's an actually well written teenage character instead of being stereotypical or just odd or what have you. she perfectly encapsulates what it feels like as a teenager to have to deal with a stressful world environment and your own personal trauma at the same time (granted mine isn't related to the apocalypse but also liiiike.... close enough). she's also a great queer character and particularly queer teenager with episode seven perfectly showing what it's like being a kid not knowing if your crush also likes you in that way or if she's just a friend. hope to see more tlou content!
Hey man. I'm a new'ish dungeon master from the other side of the world : Iran, middle east. I'm new to writing so I watch a lot of critiques to learn. your stuff is different. you don't focus on bad movies like LOTR : rings of power. you focus on good shows and why they are good and you do it with elegance. I just found you. It's the third video I'm watching from you. Pls continue the good stuff. TNX
I think another way of writing an annoying character is by surrounding that character by other somewhat unlikeable characters. My favourite example is Marie from Breaking Bad. Her dialogue and delivery are always absolutely insufferable and unreasonable, so the audience loves to hate her. It's not just the audience that finds her annoying though, the other characters in the story also have to deal with Marie's drama. Now, most of her interactions are with Skyler and Hank, both of whom are antagonists to the main character, at least in the earlier seasons, which makes them instantly unlikeable to the audience. Because of this, Marie being really annoying around these characters can be cathartic in a way, because we feel like it's a punishment to Skyler and Hank for being on Walters ass, so to speak. Basically, you can use annoying characters to annoy other characters within the story, which can create interesting dynamics and opportunities for humour.
This hits a very particular cord in my heart I have been through a lot of trauma throughout my childhood and now as a young adult I feel like a kid for the first time when I met the love of my life it was like I had never experienced anything before her it's crazy when I asked her out it was like she was the first girl I had ever laid eyes on to this day I feel like a new person in her presence it's awesome
One of my favorite, not very often used, trope is the comedic character getting serious. Not like an angry way... but when it's clear they use Comedy to hide pain but eventually the pain overcomes the funny. IDK why but I love when they do that.
10:26 this made me think about Mylo's death. I found him annoying in the beginning and i think this annoyance just made the shock of his death all the more gut punching. Idk how to put it. It just made any feeling of annoyance to him feel petty and almost cruel, his death just suddenly reminding me he was just a kid.
Interesting. Maybe it's because I am younger, or just because I'm me, but the thought that Ellie could be received as annoying never even occured to me. I loved her from the beginning and relate to her a lot. Still get the point the video makes. Always amazing to see these connections.
I recently watched 3rd Pirates of the Caribbean and I thought it would be super cool if you analyzed the relationship between Davy Jones and Calypso. To me it’s one of the most tragic yet heartfelt love stories of all time. I understand if u don’t have time for it tho :)
I would be really interested to hear more about the void you brought up and Ellie’s external and internal life in episode 8, since so much happened there
So many YA novels make teenages exactly as mature as they need to be in order for the plot to happen, and it fluxuates wildly between scenes. Sometimes a character acts like a full grown adult, sometimes they act way too immature, and neither is believable. Ellie is written like a real 14 year old, and I never found that anything other than endearing. I love her spitfire attitude and never found it annoying.
In the beginning it was a little difficult for me to get used to this version of Ellie. In the game, you get so much time to get used to her and you see her helpful aspects directly in the combat. In the show she is a bit more annoying, a tiny bit less feeling. In the game, I could read Ellie's emotions quite well in the cutscenes. In the show I have a little harder time seeing what she's feeling. Maybe her acting lacks the subtleties I enjoy, like Pascal does with Joel. Or her expressions might be harder for me to read. It could be a me issue, but I feel a little less connected to this version of Ellie. Because of the nature of the show, I connect quicker with the characters they set up for each episode and the main crew is kinda along for the ride. Seeing her smile and be a kid does make me like her more. When the games came out I was Ellie's age. 08:09 I guess this is a way I haven't seen character been written as much, so it's harder to me to connect to. Emotional bond/using feeling works better with *my* psyche. I might never feel as strong of a bond with show Ellie and Joel, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the show. I do.
I think people compare her with the original Ellie, and the writers of the show didn't exactly nail her "annoying" side, so that's the reason for all the hate.
Schnee my guy you are always on point!! You truly do have a unique and gifted mind, and the way you express it when analyzing series like this is just incredible and really really enjoyable. I absolutely adored this video; adding so much depth to a story I've been infatuated with since 2014. Please keep them coming :))
From the beginning of the video, you touch in an important writing tip: a character doesn’t have to be perfect to be compelling. In fact, it’s best if they aren’t. A big critique I hear with post-apocalyptic works, especially in YA fiction, is often how capable the privileged and clueless teenage lead is. Yes, okay, self-insert glory is a valid explanation, but it still comes across as fake because most teenagers don’t have the life experience or emotional stability to handle leading a revolution or whatever. 😂 Having Ellie be somewhat flippant and irreverent is annoying, sure, but as you said, she feels more real that way and there is so much space for her to grow as a person.
I was almost immediately charmed by Ellie being a loud, aggressive teenager, but charmed in the exact way that I see teenagers in real life. Teens are goofy and naïve and obnoxious, but they are developing in to big ol' people and all of those less appealing traits tie into what it is to be young and alive. Props to the STELLAR acting and writing for Ellie.
I love the game (in many ways more than the show), however Ellie in the game is kind of a "small adult". She's well-written, however she's a lot less annoying and childlike than in the show. The show portrayal is definitely more realistic. Part 2 shows her development over the years since there is a multiple years timespan, and I think it's pretty realistic.
Game Ellie definitely reached that brink of "Will you fking die already???" and "I would *die* to protect you!" threshold faster than show Ellie, but they both got there. *Spoilers* For me, it was the scream of Henry shooting himself. That scream made her not a fixation of my annoyance, but a living, breathing child I wanted to protect. It was so much more impactful than game Ellie's performance that it made up for all she had lacked as an actor before that. She caught up to the game, and I have been with her to the game level expectation ever since. That scream will go down in time as one of the greatest moments of acting in human history, I am sure of it.
There's something interesting about real life: have you ever seen how soldiers in bloody wars can goof off? It feels so out of place when they show teenage behavior, in such circumstances, and it can take a much darker turn when you think of the infamous Aus...itz party photo or GIs betting who can flip a coin into the open skull of a Japanese soldier... If you've ever suffered from PTSD, you probably know that you can't always be alert, or having to deal with worries. It just burns you out. It's thus a somewhat healthy reaction when people can develop a cognitive dissonance and get a mental break from all the horrors around them... Plus, we can get accustomed to danger until we become blind to it. It starts with little things, such as growing up in a bad neighborhood and feeling at home... The anime abyss had an interesting quote: even in hell we didn't stop living.
i don't find her annoying at all. She's a spunky teen and written in such a charming and humane way. I get quite tired of kids or teens in movies/shows being portrayed as archetypes, or act wayyy older than their age, like mini adults. Ellie IS a KID, and she shamelessly acts and thinks like one, and she may come across as annoying for it because duh she's immature like she's supposed to be at that age. The tragedy comes when she does start to grow up in the most traumatic of ways. I want her to giggle at stupid puns and poke fun at Joel and cuss out jerks. I don't want her to be brooding, mean and tired because of all the loss she's experienced. Let kids be silly and annoying. In a way she reminds me of Korra from LoK. I know a large portion of that audience hated her but i grew very attached to her character and her journey. It's difficult watching a snarky, confident and hopeful character being challenged and losing so much that they end up becoming a husk of themselves. It's heartfelt character writing and i appreciate it greatly
I wonder if my having played the game prior to the show gave me a lot more patience with Ellie, like I never equated her actions as annoying while watching. In the game you play as Ellie in that episode 8 arc of the show and maybe that's why I was just ready to give her a pass from the jump of the show. All in all, what a great video, love the close reads you've been doing since you started and these Last of Us ones are BANGERS!
I don’t find Ellie annoying at all. I thought she adapt well into this post apocalyptic world. She is fun, optimistic, and just a child. After playing the game I know what she will become. Is not the infected you have to worry about is other humans. The actions of what other humans do to her slowly changed her and is sad for me to see.
Actually, seeing the character of Ellie makes me realize why people want kids. Though out the annoyiness and the hardships, they do bring back a light of renewal.
I barely realized it until you pointed it out, but, no, though I do hate annoying characters, I think Ellie is almost pitch perfect, and aside from some of the puns I am not annoyed. Superb casting and work by Bella Ramsay. I don't know why, but her affect is not grating.
Ellie was way more annoying in the show than in the game. I was worried that people who hadnt played the game would be turned off by her character, but it was really well developed like you said
I didn't check every instance but whenever Joel gave Ellie an order she disobeyed she was right. Like when Joel tells her to put the gun in her backpack but she sneaks it into her pocket. She may not have been able to find it in time later if she had obeyed. I as a reasonable adult was on Joel's side. You're gonna blow your leg off girl. Bad gun safety. But sensible gun safety is bad post apocalyptic safety.
In between my last of us viewing i just started station 11 which does this with all their characters. The whole show is about people peopling decades after the end. And after like 2 drinks i kinda go a bit upset in my feelings lol these weirdos loving each other and trying to do hamlet after the end of the world are happier and have more community than i do. The world hasn't even ended yet... just goes to show how important that is i guess. I also think see it is very important. Community, love and amusement is the norm for us not savagery like most post whatever used to always been written as. Our post apocalyptic view is changing and I'm happy to see it.
Also my adhd makes me like ellie even at 33 lol i do wanna be everyone's friend and i need extra attention and i have 10 thousand things to talk about in depth at any one time lol so that part of people peopling is dear to me i guess and something not always as fair in the real world at my age lol i am annoying and that's okay.
Also brace yourself tonight. I know what happens from the games and if it's anything like the game you'll have alot to say about this topic in a few hours. Hope to hear it man.
I completely agree with this! I find so many people hate her character and I just think the mental capacity is low, (due to the game) I also found her annoying but then she grew on me.
Also, I love your stuff, your understanding of movie characters or themes is so complex and compelling, your one if, if not my favorite, video essay creator.
@@cynthiahembree3957 right, I just don’t really see how people can hate her, she’s still a lovable character, plus Bella Ramsay does a good job of that teenage trying to not show feelings but ends up doing so face, and some of her acting feels so, so real .
@@paperbagproduction_s Oh I never said I hated Ellie but I agree I think that's a bit extreme. I just was annoyed by her this isn't the first story that I've met a character that is annoying at first and the qualities that made them annoying later on become endearing.
If you came to love this character through the game, you'll feel entirely differently. It's interesting to see this dichotomy between people who played the game first and people who watched the show without playing the game.
i would have had like twice as many clips to use for this if i had just waited to upload until after ep8 came out.. 🙃
I was thinking how amazing this video would be with scenes from that episode ....
You should soooo reupload this while its fresh! (if you have time, great video as always regardless!
Called that lol
Great video, definitely helped me better understand why I like the TV show version of Ellie. Also I highly recommend you watch Vinland Saga.
After watching the ep I literally went "Schee, you were sayin'?"
@schnee bots are starting to comment on your video and comments on your video about fake giveaways. Thought i would let you know :)
That little scream escaping when Ellie witnessed someone taking themselves out was EXTREMELY natural and disturbing. I've heard people make that noise before, and I've made it myself. It cuts right into you as a human.
Exactly, that's just a testament to how good of an actress Bella Ramsey is
Yeah, I don't know how she did it and I'm not entirely sure if I want to know.
What does the idiom to "take oneself out" mean? google not helping.. Which episode is in question?
@@rainegin suicide. When Henry shot himself
Yooo. EXACTLY. I watched the OG scene from the game... was a kinda unconcerned 'Oh my god'... This hit much harder.
Ellie has never been annoying. She’s just a traumatized child that grew up in a post apocalyptic world. She uses humor and sarcasm to help her cope. She’s a real multifaceted character
The problem is that trauma was never mentioned in the series. There's a right way to use "show don't tell". But it was never shown nor told ever. She's just annoyingly mean for the sake of being a "teenager".
@@Vizible21 idk man maybe you should rewatch
@Me to myself: I'm pretty sure everyone living in that universe is walking around with trauma, look what kind of world and monsters they have to survive living around. Everyone probably has severe PTSD at a minimum
@@Vizible21 Did you even play the game or watch the show? Every episode Ellie is suffering in some way
@@Vizible21 they showed the bullying, how she feels isolated, the horrible situation with Riley, not having any parents or family, Sam...
Ellie may be a very normal teenager but I wouldn't call her dumb. She does prove to be intelligent in how she figures out Joel's smuggling code and in how she learns the skills necessary to survive
I completely agree that Ellie as a character is very intelligent, but I think calling her a 'dumb teenager' is referring more to her making decisions with a lack of knowledge or understanding of the consequences. For example her first time outside, where she had to be reigned in by the adults from possibly blowing their cover. It's not for a lack of intelligence, just understanding of the situation, as she's never experienced it before. The same way I'm sure the doctor at the end of the game was intelligent too but he didn't understand the consequences of trying to hold back Joel.
I honestly feel like way too many people unjustly criticize child and teen characters for being "annoying" - and I feel like that often comes from a place of not engaging with real children and teens. Are there bad writers that make them insufferable? Yeah, sure! But childhood comes with a lot of discoveries and curiosity and behaviours that haven't been corrected. It's especially wild to me how many fans criticized Ellie, for example, for showing clear signs of suffering from traumatic experiences. To mee, that's simply a realistic portrayal of a teenager carrying way more weight than they should have to. Some might no like it, but to say there's no character-driven, justifiable reasons of why a character is this way is frankly bewildering. This isn't a critique of your video! It's just something I've noticed throughout multiple media, and it bothers me so much! So sorry for venting, and thank you so much for uploading! I'm glad you addressed this in a more thought provoking way and offering a different perspective from what I usually see.
100% agree with this. From other stories I keep seeing child/teen characters who respond to trauma in a way that isn't "appealing" to the audience (like responding with anger or some other thing that isn't fear) get called annoying for acting that way when people like that do exist. And there being a pattern in some fandoms of criticizing female characters for no good reason, I don't know if that's going on here with Ellie but I feel it's worth mentioning. (Plus, as a teenager, I immediately connected/fell in love with Ellie's character because of the attitude and snarkiness, so maybe it can be argued there's some subjectiveness based on who your audience is)
totally agree! I'm really close to Ellie in age and I've always tried to avoid being the "stereotypical teen" even before I was a teen. I guess it's not the most harmful thing in the world, but I've definitely put very arbitrary limits on myself about how "mature" I'm supposed to be at certain ages and currently have a lot of unnecessary anxiety about enjoying certain things or behaving a certain way. and seeing the way Ellie and teenagers generally are talked about makes me feel genuinely kinda bad :/
I felt she was as annoying as someone in her situation, at her age, would probably be. I'm 31 and I think I'd actually be a lot worse than her.
*Cough Cough* the drinker *Cough Cough*
Note : not saying i hate the drinker its just some of his criticism is pretty bad, case in point the knives out series where he has an obvious vendetta against the director.
Admittedly, the concept of children being distinct and separate from adults is a relatively recent line of thinking. For the longest time, kids were just considered little adults and even as someone who doesn't necessarily want my own kids, it's so frustrating to see adults being angry that kids are acting like children like that isn't exactly what they are.
i honestly never found her braindead or annoying at all, im surprised other people do. She's never aggressive without being treated aggressively first, she isnt afraid to ask questions instead of acting like she knows everything as many teens do, and she is really empathetic, optimistic, and brave as shown by how she empathizes with joel and how she tried to save sam and is unafraid of danger. I think you can say a lot of things about her but I dont personally feel like any of it as annoying
I thought the same thing! But there are definitely a lot of people annoyed with her too. They probably either don't interact with many young teens on a day to day or have tried to remove themselves from their teenage years so seeing one genuinely act like a teenager is annoying and off-putting. But that's just my armchair psych inferences.
She's also walks a very well crafted line where she still does some things with the brazenness of a child that isn't fully aware of their own mortality yet, but at the same time while she does those things she displays thoughtfulness and resourcefulness in how she goes about them.
I'm convinced the people who complain abt her personality in the show either don't remember how a realistic teenager acts, they expect every character to be cookie-cutter and agreeable even after they've endured all sorts of trauma, or they prefer the game version of Ellie who's basically the version of a teenage girl that adults can easily bond with bc she doesn't showcase any 'annoying' traits for the purpose of being a likable NPC companion.
wrong, moment she guilt trips joel for tess dying, no one aggressive to her
she is badly written
th-cam.com/video/dgKVmB80wzs/w-d-xo.html
@@marcusclark1339 Nah.
i also think that an important part of Ellie's character is how she craves attention and relationships and life because she is immuned … everyone can die of the infection, except her, so she's terrified of being alone abover everything, worst than any other teenager, she needs to hang on to life because without that she's alone in world that is rotting away without her
Literally this!! We see this especially as she struggles with survivors guilt due to what happened to riley in episode 7, and she refuses to let it happen to joel, even to a point of denying the reality that Joel might die and there's nothing she could do about it if he did
Good point!
I never found Ellie annoying. As a writer, she's fascinating to me, because NO ONE write's kids like that. Every last YA book out there, the Protag is a small adult. Ellie feels like a real teen to me, still young enough to have a childlike air around her, but mature enough that she's trying to come into her own as well. I think she's beautiful, and I absolutely love what Last of Us is doing with their story as well.
However almost every YA novel also isn't written as a present tense. Most of them feel like an adult pondering their younger years. Most of them are also older teens. If I'm not mistaken Ellie is 13 or 14 not 17 or 18. 17 year olds don't act like 13 year olds. As a 13 year old you are still not much more than a child and are expected to act like one. As a 17 year old you are expected to start acting like an adult because you are about to be one.
EXACTLY
Perfectly said!
I actually find her quite anniying, but not in a way where I think that makes her a bad character, it's just that she has that type of annoying to her that anime protagonists have.
What I noticed is that animes often have a protagonist that starts from a genuienly flawed point, unlike american cartoons where the protagonist is kinds weird, but cool and the world has yet to realize that this protagonist is to be appreciated.
The growth of anime characters like Sailor Moon or Naruto is, that they both are children when they start, Sailor Moonnid shallow and doesn't want to do homework and runs from a fight the first few encounters, but through actual challenges and actual fights, she over time groes to understand the responsibility she carries snd understands what her duty is. The same goes for Naruto, who I find extremly annoying because I have adhd and just relate to him too much, I cringe so much and just want to shove my pills up his mouth! But I hear he too grows to understand what his priorities are and grows from a hot headed boy into a more mature and very relateable loveable hotheaded guy.
And in that sense I think Ellie has the setup for depth. She has potential.
Percy Jackson is a good example of a teenager in books too
I particularly love how you said that Ellie and Joel's connection was made "because of her personality, not in spite of her personality". These are such simple words yet they really encapsulate why exactly I have found so so many relationships in stories to be disengaging, or feel like they've bridged the gap between them in a way that feels more cheap than earned. I really appreciate stories that don't shy away from any of the character's particular traits, or problems they might create within a relationship, and address all of it with how the conflict between the characters is resolved. it makes everything about the characters feel meaningful and important in one way or another. the more different your characters are from one another the more work it takes to pull this off but it feels so rewarding to watch when it happens
That cry Ellie gives when Henry dies gives me chills every. single. time. I think it was one of the most impactful moments of her character until now - you can see the foundation of her liveliness and teenage recklessness sort of die in that split second.
i think what’s also important to acknowledge is that a lot of these sort of “class clown” archetypes use their humor as a coping mechanism. while you see this sort of breakdown of a character a lot, i think when it’s done thoughtfully it really works because it’s real. i have a handful of friends that have lived through so much trauma and the way they get through hard situations is making light of it. i very much see that mirrored in ellie.
Bella Ramsey's performance as Ellie is so believable and true to how Ellie is in the game, i never found ellie annoying because she reminded me so much of teenage me and she's just a rebellious idiot kid. hell, i think the way they act as her is really damn accurate, especially their voice
I think the character that ellie reminds of is korra from legend or korra. From the beginning the best way to describe korra is that she was a punk that wanted to explore a new world. She was loud, arrogant, made bad decisions and so much more. But after season three were korra was at her lowest, were she lost all of those traits, broke me a little. To see someone so bright, innocent and adventurous lose everything that made korra herself. She got better and matured but still lost a part of her.
Like zuko.
@@twentysecondcenturywoman Yep
Korra was a brash Mary Sue from the start.
@@greygorygaming The definition of a Mary su is that a character has no faults, that they are perfect. Korra is the exact opposite of perfect. A mary su doesn't have ptsd. Aang is an actual gary stu. I'm sorry but aang randomly finding a giant sea turtle that tells him how to beat ozai without killing him.
@@stur3366 Yeah, that's not the definition of a Mary Sue, so carry on. You can't even get Aang's character right. Conflating characterization with lazy and rushed plot contrivences/coicedences from the very end of the series.
I think Ellie is a good character. She is annoyingly accurate as a teen, and when episode 7 rolled out expositing more of her backstory really made me like her more and makes me look forward to the final two episodes
Maybe it's because I've been through some traumas in my life, maybe because I did some work on myself, but I never considered her annoying.
I was really digging Ramsey's portrayal of Ellie a lot. But Episode 7, "Left Behind", was the one that TRULY solidified my love for her performance.
Left Behind was always a part of the game that was near and dear to my heart. While I liked the episode well enough on a first viewing... I was unsure how I felt about it. Because of my love for the game's version of this segment, I was being too nitpicky and not judging this episode fairly by letting it be what it was.
Then I rewatched it (while showing it to a friend. It was her first time watching it and she knows very little of the games). My opinions on the episode became clear and it shot up in my vague, personal ranking of the episodes. And it devastated me more this time around.
It is such a beautiful, tender episode. With so many subtle moments that highlight who Ellie is.
I loved the parallel of her holding hands with Riley, and later with Joel. She's lost too much. There's no way in hell she's gonna give up on Joel without a proper fight.
Just like how the Left Behind DLC solidified my love for the character of Ellie, this episode reminded me of why I love the character of Ellie so much. She is very much like a real teenager (reminds me a lot of myself back then lol). She is bratty, doesn't follow orders all the time, she can be quick to anger (The show reveals how all of this comes from a place of fear of loneliness and abandonment). She's a truly sensitive person, despite the plucky exterior. She's someone who's only known a few joys, but that just makes her cherish what she has even more. She LOVES looking at and experiencing the beauty she can carve out in this decrepit world. And above all: She's someone who fights for every moment she can get with someone she cares for. She's also smart, and above all, she is brave as hell.
Ramsey was phenomenal in this episode. Especially liked all the stolen glances at Riley, and then her face at the end as she stitches Joel up. Love how her face is full of desperation, but it can't help but betray some excitement and hope that this just might work.
She's is killing it as Ellie. VERY excited for episode 8.
When you said "you know who's less annoying Joel, and we do not want to see Ellie become Joel" and realised that's exactly who she becomes in TLOU2, it broke my heart. Because you can see her losing more and more of herself and becoming him completely by the end and it's so sad. I love both games so much.
Perrito from Puss in Boots is another example of this “annoying” character that we love.
Bella is doing an amazing job with Ellie, but I've got a big soft spot for Ashley's performance in the game. That raw spunk is super endearing.
Thank you! I like her way more than Bella. Objectively, Bella is also a phenomenal actress, but subjectively there was something in her portrayal of Ellie I found really off-putting. She simply isn't Ellie to me. She's too bratty and mean at times and she looks waaaay too young (and yes I know the character is supposed to be young.)
i think we're harsh, as adults on the characters that are children -- especially when they're in that age of 12-16. It's something about that age gap that we expect more in the child character's actions or intellect (most of the time, it's just badly written and doesn't feel human)
Given the difficulty of writing a character at that age, in a dystopian apocalyptic world, who's really never known much of anything else. That is a tall order.
Given all that, I think they did pretty well.
Funny, I don't find her annoying. I think in any other setting I might but as you said, it works here. Top notch writing in making her so real, like she was written by an actual teenager.
I think the most beautiful scene in the show so far is the end scene in episode 4 when Ellie tells the diarrhea joke to Joel. He has already connected to her once before with the scarecrow pun, and other than that one he has just been annoyed by them. Then in that scene, he genuinely found the joke funny not expecting it at all. He was expecting one of her random questions and got a joke and started laughing. And Ellie was happy to finally have gotten him to laugh at one of her jokes. I wouldn’t say that was when their relationship changed, but I think it was definitely a milestone in it
Edit: oops I wrote this before you addressed it in the video lol
She was quite sheltered growing up in the QZ, so that’s why she asks so many “GD questions” and just kids in general tend to do that. Her brain hasn’t fully developed yet, thus not having her critical thinking skills down-pat . The breaking David’s finger to get the keys was never going to work. since they were locked onto his belt loop, not fully thinking things through. But it could have been out of desperation sensing that her circumstances were dire and growing so being in the cage. Her figuring out the bill/Joel’s 80s code meaning was quite intelligent.
Am I the only one who saw a fun and bright character?
I think he didn't really mean she was annoying. It's a conclusion from the lack of a term.
It makes me really happy you make content from your perspective, schnee - you have a lot of empathy a lot of critics don’t have.
just a tiny thing I noticed: a lot of teenage characters in movies and shows tend to be annoying and unlikable because they try too hard to act like adults, and it’s normal for teens to do that, but it’s hard to like them when it’s all they try to do. and knowing that the character is obviously not mature enough to be an adult, they still try to act like one and it’s annoying. ellie doesn’t try to act like an adult; she just does her own thing
TV Ellie is also written slightly different than game Ellie though. She's a lot more level-headed in the game and was more immature at the beginning of the show.
When Ellie thinks her blood is going to cure Sam, that was for me the ultimate moment where we see, she is just a kid with a child's innocence, thinking this will cure Sam. It was a beautiful moment, where I remember saying "oh Ellie" not with judgement but with compassion. This show is just so good at reminding us Ellie is a kid, a very smart one and slightly annoying one but it fits. It shows her vulnerability that she desperately tries to hide. Yes, she can be a little bit annoying (like all teenagers), but I never found her annoying
at first i didnt like bella ramsey as ellie, but now i think they are perfect as ellie. i love game ellie, and like the actress better in her role, but bella ramsey portrays a 14 year old so much better and much more realistically. i dont know who to like more, but currently bella ramsey's ellie is perfect. i hope to see their talent in more movies
I never considered her annoying though some stunts like the piano I was definitely worried for her, knowing that making noise could bring them problems. I've also watched LP of the game though when it came out so that could be why. I never considered that people would dislike her.
a lot of "annoying" characters in media are characters i like. ive never understood when people dislike them xP
i like ellie a lot, and dont even see any annoyingness to her at all. the way you seem to described "good annoying" is how I view the characters people call "bad annoying". and "good annoying" characters dont come off as annoying to me at all.
I like how Joel wants to grumble when Ellie break the mirror, but then remembers that there is no traffic anymore and like "Whatever, she can look in the mirror if she wants"
For one, she is playing a 14 year old character who is experiencing a lot of things for the very first time, like the pick up truck being a "space ship" to her. Another example is the escalator described by her as "electric stairs" . Some may find her character annoying. I do NOT. I love her character. She behaves like any teenager would in situations where you're experiencing things for the very first time. I also feel for her because she has lost people in her life to both death and being left behind. She seeks that family connection. She wants that close bond. And her and Joel are perfect, they have a great bond that's grown with each episode
The only bump in this road that can't be ignored is generational trauma which IS passed down and does f you up (trust me). For example, grandparents living through the depression (no food, money) become hoarders/clean your plate/etc. and then having grandchildren live in it. This changes your relationship with food, items, money and the concept of scarcity and being insecure. Generational trauma is something that never really ends until you sever that family link or get therapy - seriously. Love your vids btw!
I love her more as a character more and more with every episodes
i LOVE ellie, i loved her from the start and all the way til the end, and i loved her much more than i loved game!ellie. she's just perfectly written. i like how much of a gruntly teenager she is, i like that she's in enough of a mood enough of the time while also showing her innocence and excitement about life. i love that she doesn't shy away from injustice towards other people and herself, i love that she always stands up for herself and, like david says, she has a violent heart while also being so loving, loyal and people driven. i just LOVE that they made her such an ambivalent character in this sense, showing how she wishes she had a family and connection and had that from joel (even on a subconscious level) but makes him work for it too as she has to with him. it's a great and perfect portrayal of a teenager... how she can be so difficult to be around in some moments (like with the way she was talking back at tess) because she stands up for herself, showing the normal rebellious side most teenagers develop, and then have her in scenes where she's genuinely just a silly little kid like when they get into the hotel and she starts role playing with the bell. she's just so perfectly written, i could go on about her for hours because how much depth she has and how appealing she is.
I've grown to really love the videos where you analyse a certain character trait or archetype, like the annoying child character here. I'd absolutely watch a whole series focused on analyzing any kind of character type like this, whether it be something very broad like bravery or something specific like characters who are good at driving, or something.
I absolutely love how you break down writing tropes and tools, it's helped me to become a better writer and it puts a new perspective on how I think about storytelling in general. Thank you for that!
I've been watching your videos for a good time now and I must thank you because your breaking down of series, characters, and scenes helped me a lot with my writing.
I am currently writing a book with dystopian vibes (not as far as world ending and mushroom zombies though) and it follows the story of a group of teenagers from 16 to 18 years old and how they deal with life without their families, without guidance (until someone shows up and helps them), how they deal with betrayal, death, pain and all that stuff. So this video helped me a lot.
I also have a recommendation if you don't mind.
You should watch good omens it's a comedy/fiction by it's honestly awesome. I was also curious from what, as a writer, I can learn from it.
P.S. it's based of a book.
Anyway, thanks so much. Keep doing what you do, and keep being You.
I never found Ellie annoying at all. I think the people that hate her character just dislike teenagers, because she’s written pretty realistically for a teenager going through an insane amount of stress and trauma
I didn’t think she was anoying or stupid she seems generally likeable and pretty intelligent for the most part
I think another underlaying factor why some people have found Ellie's character annoying is that fact that she's a teenage girl. Young girls are often dismissed as annoying and vapid because they're the antithesis of what the patriarchy deems as more important or valuable (stoicism, toughness, physical strength etc), traits that Joel shows. So in a way they see her as a hindrance to Joel even though he chose to help her.
Her remaining innocence and curiosity at the world is interpreted into arrogance or bitchiness because she doesn't fully understand yet the real dangers or risks.
I never found Ellie annoying, ever. She did “grow” on me, but it really just went from feeling somewhat “neutral” about her to liking her to loving her.
This is a great video! Not only from a learn-to-write standpoint, but it's helped me distill why I find the show and game so meaningful.
It's really interesting for me to see the opinions of people who didn't play the game, who are experiencing this story for the first time. I think that you summed it up pretty well, at first, you think she's annoying and overconfident and kinda dumb, which she is. But then you see she goes through and what she's been through and, like Joel, she grows on you and you get attached.
I think TV Ellie is a bit unrealistic with her naivete and bubbliness but this isn't the actress fault it's actually how the TV show wrote her environment. The show has set up that somehow TV Ellie is super sheltered in Fedra when game Ellie wasn't. Game Ellie went to the streets, hung out with guards, and ran around at night so she got to see dead people, harsh treatment, gang like warfare, and she was trained how to kill & performed some at least campus security,
TV Ellie seems to have missed all this training in 14 years they seem to not want to teach them to shoot, kill, or patrol till they're at least 16 and even then it seems like they're unwanting to based on how TV Riley was 17 -18 and was going to be posted & seemed like she didn't get training on killing or patrol at that point either so TV Fedra doesn't work well for the environment they're in these people are above ground Fallout and seem to not know but that's a show problem. They claimed they're understaffed they should be using the 10 -18 year old bracket to fill those positions post the adults in the streets, the kids for half the building and train them to do their jobs but they aren't.
So given that TV Ellie grew up in nice TV Fedra it makes sense she's bubbly & naive and this is a TV writer's problem she should've seen the war outside her barracks but given she hasn't her personality matches that but if we go with she was suppose to be growing up in game Ellie's world her personality doesn't match that.
@@destroyraiden This is an interesting take on this. I'd argue that they are different because in the video game there's either infected, fedra, or someone else coming after them every five minutes, she'd need that experience in order to "realistically" survive, and I use the term realistic loosely since this is a video game we're talking about. However in the show I'd say that it's even more realistic in the combat seeing as they don't fight hoards of people head on and win, that just wouldn't happen in anything but a video game. I do have to agree that she probably should've had a bit more training in the ways of combat but she's also only 14 so she had a few more years before she aged out and we do see that Riley was more knowledgeable in this area so she obviously had more training that Ellie also would've likely had, had she stayed with Fedra. I don't think either interpretation of the character is worse or better, they were simply made for different mediums. Game and show Ellie share the same base personality and game Ellie is still naive and needs Joel to teach her how to survive, she still has never seen the outside world.
Great commentary
One thing that seems obvious because you forget you're seeing it, but probably the central theme of the whole show is how you pointed out that Joel is deciding whether or not to rekindle his capacity to feel while protecting her capacity to feel
As a fifteen year old, Ellie felt exactly like so many people I know, and maybe even me a little bit. Edgy comebacks. Over confidence. Goofy nature. The Last of Us portrayed her really really well, I could see myself in her.
This was an absolutely essential video essay on complex character development and I will definitely be revisiting it for my own work.
There's a trend of teenage girl characters that are written not to be timid, traditionally cutesy, potentially to be sexualized and there's an influx of mostly adult men (women too but less) who end up hating those girls. On top of my head Ahsoka. If you have a crumble of emotional intelligence (read brain) then they aren't annoying. The issue isn't the perfectly normal, partially flawed characters but the braindead audience. Not a critic of this video just wanted to get this off my chest
(Spoiler!!!)
Something in my brain clicked when you say people don’t want to see Ellie loses her life and become Joel, and that’s I think part of the reason why TLOU part 2 was so divisive. I couldn’t put my hands on why I felt so stressful after playing part 2, until I saw what you said. The fact that Ellie was still consumed by vengeance despite having a decent life near the end of the game, breaks me. Part 2 honesty is a walking PTSD simulator. Still like it tho.
I think Ellie is great didnt find her annoying at all Bella really captures ellie for me.
Something I'd like to point out is that Joel never hated Ellie. From the very beginning, he cared for her, but he was so terrified of repeating the cycle of meeting someone->getting attached->losing them. He pushed her away as it's his survival instinct to act cold and uncaring.
I know this is nitpicky, I'd just like to mention this.
Spoilers ahead:
I think we did see Ellie mature in the knew episode, even with the relationship with Joel.
I really think that that episode has made an impact on her somehow (or at least traumatized her somehow , I mean- she almost gets “cut into little pieces”, got invited to a cannibal cult, had to take responsibility of Joel, beaten, and almost raped)
There literally wasn’t one moment game or series I found her annoying. She definitely ain’t brain dead.
who tf thought she was annoying? she's a kid. if anyone is irritated by her, you've got a problem.
i'm a teenager watching the last of us and i agree so much with what you've said. i feel so seen by ellie because she's an actually well written teenage character instead of being stereotypical or just odd or what have you. she perfectly encapsulates what it feels like as a teenager to have to deal with a stressful world environment and your own personal trauma at the same time (granted mine isn't related to the apocalypse but also liiiike.... close enough). she's also a great queer character and particularly queer teenager with episode seven perfectly showing what it's like being a kid not knowing if your crush also likes you in that way or if she's just a friend. hope to see more tlou content!
I was never annoyed by Ellie. I immediately adored her. She was my favorite character from her first scene on.
Hey man. I'm a new'ish dungeon master from the other side of the world : Iran, middle east. I'm new to writing so I watch a lot of critiques to learn. your stuff is different. you don't focus on bad movies like LOTR : rings of power. you focus on good shows and why they are good and you do it with elegance. I just found you. It's the third video I'm watching from you. Pls continue the good stuff. TNX
I think another way of writing an annoying character is by surrounding that character by other somewhat unlikeable characters. My favourite example is Marie from Breaking Bad. Her dialogue and delivery are always absolutely insufferable and unreasonable, so the audience loves to hate her. It's not just the audience that finds her annoying though, the other characters in the story also have to deal with Marie's drama. Now, most of her interactions are with Skyler and Hank, both of whom are antagonists to the main character, at least in the earlier seasons, which makes them instantly unlikeable to the audience. Because of this, Marie being really annoying around these characters can be cathartic in a way, because we feel like it's a punishment to Skyler and Hank for being on Walters ass, so to speak. Basically, you can use annoying characters to annoy other characters within the story, which can create interesting dynamics and opportunities for humour.
This hits a very particular cord in my heart I have been through a lot of trauma throughout my childhood and now as a young adult I feel like a kid for the first time when I met the love of my life it was like I had never experienced anything before her it's crazy when I asked her out it was like she was the first girl I had ever laid eyes on to this day I feel like a new person in her presence it's awesome
One of my favorite, not very often used, trope is the comedic character getting serious. Not like an angry way... but when it's clear they use Comedy to hide pain but eventually the pain overcomes the funny. IDK why but I love when they do that.
10:26 this made me think about Mylo's death. I found him annoying in the beginning and i think this annoyance just made the shock of his death all the more gut punching. Idk how to put it. It just made any feeling of annoyance to him feel petty and almost cruel, his death just suddenly reminding me he was just a kid.
Interesting. Maybe it's because I am younger, or just because I'm me, but the thought that Ellie could be received as annoying never even occured to me. I loved her from the beginning and relate to her a lot. Still get the point the video makes. Always amazing to see these connections.
Didn’t find her annoying for a second.
She acted 14 and that was kinda the assignment
Don't forget that kids are annoying.
Even grown ups teens are annoying like 18 or 19 year olds.
Ellie is just a kid. She will grow slowly.
I recently watched 3rd Pirates of the Caribbean and I thought it would be super cool if you analyzed the relationship between Davy Jones and Calypso. To me it’s one of the most tragic yet heartfelt love stories of all time. I understand if u don’t have time for it tho :)
I would be really interested to hear more about the void you brought up and Ellie’s external and internal life in episode 8, since so much happened there
So many YA novels make teenages exactly as mature as they need to be in order for the plot to happen, and it fluxuates wildly between scenes. Sometimes a character acts like a full grown adult, sometimes they act way too immature, and neither is believable. Ellie is written like a real 14 year old, and I never found that anything other than endearing. I love her spitfire attitude and never found it annoying.
In the beginning it was a little difficult for me to get used to this version of Ellie. In the game, you get so much time to get used to her and you see her helpful aspects directly in the combat.
In the show she is a bit more annoying, a tiny bit less feeling. In the game, I could read Ellie's emotions quite well in the cutscenes. In the show I have a little harder time seeing what she's feeling. Maybe her acting lacks the subtleties I enjoy, like Pascal does with Joel. Or her expressions might be harder for me to read. It could be a me issue, but I feel a little less connected to this version of Ellie.
Because of the nature of the show, I connect quicker with the characters they set up for each episode and the main crew is kinda along for the ride.
Seeing her smile and be a kid does make me like her more.
When the games came out I was Ellie's age.
08:09 I guess this is a way I haven't seen character been written as much, so it's harder to me to connect to. Emotional bond/using feeling works better with *my* psyche.
I might never feel as strong of a bond with show Ellie and Joel, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the show. I do.
I think people compare her with the original Ellie, and the writers of the show didn't exactly nail her "annoying" side, so that's the reason for all the hate.
incredibly shocking to learn that some people find ellie annoying
I had legitimately zero clue that people thought Ellie was annoying. Game or show
Schnee my guy you are always on point!! You truly do have a unique and gifted mind, and the way you express it when analyzing series like this is just incredible and really really enjoyable. I absolutely adored this video; adding so much depth to a story I've been infatuated with since 2014. Please keep them coming :))
From the beginning of the video, you touch in an important writing tip: a character doesn’t have to be perfect to be compelling. In fact, it’s best if they aren’t.
A big critique I hear with post-apocalyptic works, especially in YA fiction, is often how capable the privileged and clueless teenage lead is. Yes, okay, self-insert glory is a valid explanation, but it still comes across as fake because most teenagers don’t have the life experience or emotional stability to handle leading a revolution or whatever. 😂 Having Ellie be somewhat flippant and irreverent is annoying, sure, but as you said, she feels more real that way and there is so much space for her to grow as a person.
Ellie is NOT annoying
I was almost immediately charmed by Ellie being a loud, aggressive teenager, but charmed in the exact way that I see teenagers in real life. Teens are goofy and naïve and obnoxious, but they are developing in to big ol' people and all of those less appealing traits tie into what it is to be young and alive. Props to the STELLAR acting and writing for Ellie.
I love the game (in many ways more than the show), however Ellie in the game is kind of a "small adult". She's well-written, however she's a lot less annoying and childlike than in the show. The show portrayal is definitely more realistic. Part 2 shows her development over the years since there is a multiple years timespan, and I think it's pretty realistic.
Game Ellie definitely reached that brink of "Will you fking die already???" and "I would *die* to protect you!" threshold faster than show Ellie, but they both got there. *Spoilers*
For me, it was the scream of Henry shooting himself. That scream made her not a fixation of my annoyance, but a living, breathing child I wanted to protect. It was so much more impactful than game Ellie's performance that it made up for all she had lacked as an actor before that. She caught up to the game, and I have been with her to the game level expectation ever since. That scream will go down in time as one of the greatest moments of acting in human history, I am sure of it.
I never found ellie annoying, she's the best character in the show
I wanted to click the like button so many times throughout this video. youtube should implement that feature
So many of her lines are word-for-word with the game
There's something interesting about real life: have you ever seen how soldiers in bloody wars can goof off?
It feels so out of place when they show teenage behavior, in such circumstances, and it can take a much darker turn when you think of the infamous Aus...itz party photo or GIs betting who can flip a coin into the open skull of a Japanese soldier...
If you've ever suffered from PTSD, you probably know that you can't always be alert, or having to deal with worries. It just burns you out. It's thus a somewhat healthy reaction when people can develop a cognitive dissonance and get a mental break from all the horrors around them... Plus, we can get accustomed to danger until we become blind to it.
It starts with little things, such as growing up in a bad neighborhood and feeling at home...
The anime abyss had an interesting quote: even in hell we didn't stop living.
i don't find her annoying at all. She's a spunky teen and written in such a charming and humane way. I get quite tired of kids or teens in movies/shows being portrayed as archetypes, or act wayyy older than their age, like mini adults. Ellie IS a KID, and she shamelessly acts and thinks like one, and she may come across as annoying for it because duh she's immature like she's supposed to be at that age. The tragedy comes when she does start to grow up in the most traumatic of ways. I want her to giggle at stupid puns and poke fun at Joel and cuss out jerks. I don't want her to be brooding, mean and tired because of all the loss she's experienced. Let kids be silly and annoying.
In a way she reminds me of Korra from LoK. I know a large portion of that audience hated her but i grew very attached to her character and her journey. It's difficult watching a snarky, confident and hopeful character being challenged and losing so much that they end up becoming a husk of themselves. It's heartfelt character writing and i appreciate it greatly
I wonder if my having played the game prior to the show gave me a lot more patience with Ellie, like I never equated her actions as annoying while watching. In the game you play as Ellie in that episode 8 arc of the show and maybe that's why I was just ready to give her a pass from the jump of the show.
All in all, what a great video, love the close reads you've been doing since you started and these Last of Us ones are BANGERS!
1:44 No dog would be fine being surrounded by hellfire, because it goes against the fundamental universal rule that all dogs go to heaven.
I don’t find Ellie annoying at all. I thought she adapt well into this post apocalyptic world. She is fun, optimistic, and just a child. After playing the game I know what she will become. Is not the infected you have to worry about is other humans. The actions of what other humans do to her slowly changed her and is sad for me to see.
I liked Navi. I liked her enough to make her my message ring tone. This video drove me crazy checking my phone
Actually, seeing the character of Ellie makes me realize why people want kids. Though out the annoyiness and the hardships, they do bring back a light of renewal.
sounds like Ahsoka from Star Wars the Clone Wars
These videos are amazing bro, please keep ‘em movin can’t wait for your next Last Of Us vid 🤝🔥
Braindead and American (teenager) are MEANT to be used in one sentence fr fr
I barely realized it until you pointed it out, but, no, though I do hate annoying characters, I think Ellie is almost pitch perfect, and aside from some of the puns I am not annoyed. Superb casting and work by Bella Ramsay. I don't know why, but her affect is not grating.
Ellie was way more annoying in the show than in the game. I was worried that people who hadnt played the game would be turned off by her character, but it was really well developed like you said
The response to "Ellie is annoying" is "Oh my god, the teenage girl character acts like... a teenage girl"
The question is annoying, leading one to suspect that the author is also
What an amazing essay! One of my favourites out there - just subscribed ;)
I didn't check every instance but whenever Joel gave Ellie an order she disobeyed she was right. Like when Joel tells her to put the gun in her backpack but she sneaks it into her pocket. She may not have been able to find it in time later if she had obeyed.
I as a reasonable adult was on Joel's side. You're gonna blow your leg off girl. Bad gun safety. But sensible gun safety is bad post apocalyptic safety.
In between my last of us viewing i just started station 11 which does this with all their characters. The whole show is about people peopling decades after the end. And after like 2 drinks i kinda go a bit upset in my feelings lol these weirdos loving each other and trying to do hamlet after the end of the world are happier and have more community than i do. The world hasn't even ended yet... just goes to show how important that is i guess. I also think see it is very important. Community, love and amusement is the norm for us not savagery like most post whatever used to always been written as. Our post apocalyptic view is changing and I'm happy to see it.
Also my adhd makes me like ellie even at 33 lol i do wanna be everyone's friend and i need extra attention and i have 10 thousand things to talk about in depth at any one time lol so that part of people peopling is dear to me i guess and something not always as fair in the real world at my age lol i am annoying and that's okay.
Also brace yourself tonight. I know what happens from the games and if it's anything like the game you'll have alot to say about this topic in a few hours. Hope to hear it man.
I completely agree with this! I find so many people hate her character and I just think the mental capacity is low, (due to the game) I also found her annoying but then she grew on me.
Also, I love your stuff, your understanding of movie characters or themes is so complex and compelling, your one if, if not my favorite, video essay creator.
I had the same experience I think she feels more endearing now but she was super annoying to me before.
@@cynthiahembree3957 right, I just don’t really see how people can hate her, she’s still a lovable character, plus Bella Ramsay does a good job of that teenage trying to not show feelings but ends up doing so face, and some of her acting feels so, so real .
@@paperbagproduction_s Oh I never said I hated Ellie but I agree I think that's a bit extreme. I just was annoyed by her this isn't the first story that I've met a character that is annoying at first and the qualities that made them annoying later on become endearing.
@@cynthiahembree3957 yes yes, I have friends say they do and I’m like bro give her a chance lol, look into it a little
If you came to love this character through the game, you'll feel entirely differently. It's interesting to see this dichotomy between people who played the game first and people who watched the show without playing the game.