Most Swiss brands started out as parts-makers for the French watch industry, and then became homage makers, basing all their full-watch designs on existing French watches, and then after a while they moved to creating original pieces of their own. Brands like San Martin have already started making their own 'original designs' - it's very early days, and their rate of change far outpaces any rate of improvement that was seen in Swiss watch making. Wait a few years.
You have become the only watch channel I need in my life. Your videos feel more like a contemplation of life through the lense of watches. I really appreciate that.
I've been anti-homage until very recently. Last year I purchased and quickly let go of a Tudor Pelagos 39. I enjoyed the watch for the summer, but it was not perfect for me to keep around: the glossy black dial on a tool watch didn't feel right; I wanted a date window; it had no no inner-chapter ring like on the normal Pelagos; and there is no blue option - all of this made it feel lackluster and a bit underwhelming to wear, especially for the price. I recently discovered San Martin makes a well-regarded Pelagos 39 homage that comes with the chapter ring, option for date at 3 or 6, in gorgeous dark FXD blue or even a nice green, and in both titanium or stainless steel. I jumped right on it. It just arrived last week and I'm very impressed. The bezel is snappy and perfectly lined up. The movement is plenty accurate for Seiko standards. And most importantly, it feels and looks great on wrist. To me, San Martin beat Tudor at their own game in making the dream Pelagos I've always wanted. I'm a happy customer and will keep an eye out for their future releases.
That watch is San Martins best homage. And as you say, mix both the P42 and P39 together, to make the best of both worlds. A true homage watch, not a copy, as many seem to think a homage watch is. 🙏🙌
I feel the same way about my blue enamel San Martin "Ranger," they took the Tudor design and didn't replicate it, they improved it with applied indices and a variety of dial colors and a 38mm case (instead of the 39mm). They are doing a good job of listening to the market's reaction to watches and making the tweaks many of us want in their homage offerings.
Here's the thing, I'm a watch collector and enthusiast.....so I have a small budget I have to allocate to this hobby I enjoy, so I have to choose wisely. I initially dismissed San Martin and other Chinese watches years ago, until recently I realized many other brands use Chinese parts, even well known Swiss brands. So I gave San Martin a shot, I figured.........how bad can it be, boy was I wrong wrong wrong. These watches from San Martin are high quality, the fit and finish is exceptional. I will enjoy my new San Martin with the Seiko NH35 movement for what it is. In the end....nobody cares if you have an $8000 Rolex or a $180 Chinese San Martin on your wrist, Only if you enjoy the watches.
In fact people will probably hate u for having it. Its the world we live in,people get jealous. My friend spends as much on automatic weapons as I do on watches. He doesn't even shoot them! But I guess it makes him happy.
So companies that "homage" a Rolex etal are critized for copying a Rolex because it doesn't cost as much in design but then you criticize San Martin for not copying the luxury brand EXACTLY by not having every detail of the luxury watch down pat and possibly even leaving out such things as an escape valve on an Omega-like homage. If you leave such things as an escape valve out is it still a copy and therefore should it be criticized for not including the escape valve? It can't be both a copy and not exact enough to qualify as a copy at the same time. We all understand that a Rolex is a feeling and to some a status symbol first and foremost that happens to be in the form of a watch. The contrived fabrication of a watch defining a person's status as displayed in the form of an elite watch is really not something to be praised but far too often to some people it is the purpose of the watch. They can tell time on their cellphone. The function of the the watch is secondary to its use as a status symbol. We can wax poetically about the history and the vision of the dedicated artisans of old designing and constructing a magnificent monument to the art of horology till the cows come home but that old master watchmaker kicked the bucket long ago. The watch designer now is the master of Autocad. Computers are the replacement for the pencil and paper. Certainly skilled watch assemblers are still employed, though in a much less romantic mystique bent, to produce the watches to send to the shipping department . It's all about the shipping department. Many parts arrive from sources other than Switzerland (and in many cases they are increasingly from China, ) whereupon those parts are matched with other parts from various suppliers, and a watch is produced. The romance is in the mind of the beholder because it has been planted there over generations to revere a long lost craftsmanship that no longer applies. Watches are now "assembled" not crafted by artisans. The mystique is gone. That mystique can only survive by way of marketting the luxury watch as a status symbol in the minds of those who use the watch as a way to keep score of that status. We are in a modern world of manufacturing. Certainly there are pockets of old world craftsmanship that still exist but very quickly those pockets are becoming no longer relevant. The rise of superior efficiencies in manufacturing is making many processes very much less relevant thus the skills of the craftsman such as the master carver of wood are being replaced by the computer aided laser. There is less and less need for a watch to be ridiculously expensive once the full force of efficient computer based manufacturing takes over. This fact is the real reason that Rolex vs San Martin lines are becoming clouded. When the old masters are distant memories the new masters of the computer age will take over producing perfect watches for little money. The Rolex AD glory days of making customers beg for their turn to be selected as being worthy to pay outlandish sums of money for a watch are numbered. It will take time but the process is speeding up every day. The value of a watch will be measured by the level of excellence in the computerized manufacture, not the blackmail of the Authorized Dealer. There will always be a market for true vintage timepieces that can command top dollar due to the horology and rarity but the new luxury watch markets' days are numbered. The guy with the best computers wins.
I have a San Martin with sellita movement,and it runs within COSC parameters. It is a 62MAS homage that even improves the original watch and of course the official Seiko reissues that are oversized and are extremely expensive limited editions.
Your clarity, humility and total absence of prejudice is not seen on any other TH-cam channel, on any topic. Especially considering that you do have the money to buy luxury watches. Greetings from Argentina.
Just picked up my first San Martin for $150. It was the SN0139 dive watch. A lot of people call it a SeaQ homage but I think it looks closer to the classic skindiver look that a lot of the 60's brands used (Douglas, Le Forban, Wolbrook, etc.) I collect mostly mid-tier Seikos so the NH35 movement doesn't bother me. The thing that really blew me away was the case finishing and bracelet quality. It reminds me of my buddy's Tudor in terms of the overall manufacturing quality of the hardware. The dial is beautiful and there are no mis-alignment issues. It really is that good! I can't believe this is now the "nicest" watch in my collection. I know why I should pay more for a Tudor - R&D, marketing costs, a superior movement, heritage etc - but do those factors justify a 4000% increase in cost when this San Martin feels just as premium, keeps great time, and looks stunning on my wrist? I am not so sure...
Define keeps great time? A Rolex is a 2 second a day watch. These cheap garbage watches run 20 seconds off per day. 6 if you pay a watchmaker $500 more to tinker with them and then they can hold that for maybe 3 years max v. 10 for the Rolex.
Their Tudor homage watches used to have the rivet bracelet, it wasn’t even fake, they were actual rivet screws. Their customers told them not to use the rivet bracelet as they didn’t want it. As nice as it is, I have two.
Mike, Thank you for this thoughtful presentation. One point I would like to bring up, that wasn’t discussed in the video, is the fact that the majority of watches sold around the globe are not purchased by watch enthusiasts. Overwhelmingly, consumers look for watches that are reasonably priced and reasonably reliable. The vast majority of consumers are not interested in brand history or watch movements. If you lose a $10,000 Rolex, you’re probably not going to replace it anytime soon. Lose a San Martin, and you can replace it today. Something to think about.
Thankfully, for those that do care about history or originality, there are brands that give us that at the same price point. You don't have to choose between worrying about loosing the watch and getting an original design.
@@dhshatzer What other brand offers the same level of quality and finishing ( at the same price ) Of a San Martin SN0129G Or the new SN0130G. There are none that come to mind. If I’m missed a brand or two, please chime in. As far as I can tell, San Martin dominate the under $500 watch market in terms of quality with their bracelets and case finishing.
San Martin also just started coming out with original watches which are equally exceptional. With these watches there really isn't much of an argument against purchasing them.
I think you've missed out the affordability of the homages for some people, especially for other countries. The minimum wage for my country is around $300. Splurging on a Tudor, Rolex or other swiss watches is incomprehensible and unattainable to many, many people. Not all watch enthusiasts are from countries with strong currencies. Everyone knows how intricate, detailed and history filled an expensive watch is, but not everyone outside of the first world countries will be able to save up for it.
I did pull the trigger and buy a san martin. It was the zulu timer homage and I absolutely love it. The finishing, the bracelet quality, the regulation they do to the movement and the premium materials they use. So bottom line is, ur getting far more for far less. Keep up the good work and looking forward to more of your videos.
Very well stated. I think people get this argument wrong a lot on both sides (anti-homage and anti-luxury), neither are bad, they just offer different things and it comes down to preference and what you find important. For me I have both, (to be fair the expensive stuff I own I've received as gifts, the cheap stuff I bought myself). But I find I wear the cheaper stuff more often (more micro-brands than Chinese homages, but I have some of those too). I own 3 San Martin watches and all of them are shockingly good and I really like all of them. My current favorite watch is a San Martin, which took a Tudor design (39mm Ranger) that I've always liked and fixed the stuff I didn't like about it (printed dial and lack of color choices, and San Martin took the case down to 38mm). This thing is GD beautiful! I like the applied indices better than the printed dial on the Tudor and the blue enamel dial is amazing and changes the look dramatically from the black Tudor. Nobody would mistake this thing for a Tudor (and I wouldn't want them to). Buy what you like and enjoy!
The two worst things about homage watches. 1) People that think it's basically Rolex or whatever brand minus the movement. 2) People that look down on others who buy them. I think homage watches are great. They can get people interested in watches and can provide a really solid watch for the price if you don't care about brand. I started off with Squale, San Martin, and Steinhart. I've sold them all and now own Tudor and Grand Seiko. To me, I think the best middle ground between high end and cheap are Seiko SPB line especially in the secondary market. Great video as always.
Agreed. However, Squale is a legitimate brand in its own right. If you choose one of their original designs. They have heritage and legit dive lineage.
I have a Sub of late 80s vintage. I have a BB 54 and a Pelagos. Both newer vintange. Both Tudors blow away my Sub. Now I concide the comparison is apples to oranges. However, if we take a new BB at $3600 vs. a Sub at $12,000, well, it really is a no-brainer. The Tudor is a better option. I love my Sub, but they are not worth the price or headache to procure a new one. I absolutely LOVE my Pelagos. I don't think you need to choose one over the other. They are both legit brands with storied histories. For me, though, if I was going to drop $15,000 on a watch, it isn't going to be a Sub. Perhaps another model Rolex, but more likely another brand, which truly represents $15,000 value and quality. But that is just me. I own and wear what I find interesting. Be that a Casio or Rolex, and I could care less what others think. I am also a huge fan of Casio and Citizen. I have and wear much more expensive watches, but in the end, they just satisfy an itch. My current itch is an Omega Deville Tresore.
Agree. But i would love if microbrands in general avoid homages or styles that remind you of high end watches. I don't have any Studio Underdog watch because they are sold out every time i try to buy them, but the guy who designs them is really daring and honest; in fact, the Chinese are now imitating his watches. I love microbrands that try something relatively new; that's why i have a humble Mr Jones Mare Adesso, a Moels & Co, and a couple of colorful Farers that someone described, accurately, as children's watches. I would never buy anything that looks like a Tudor or a Rolex. In fact, i would never buy a real Rolex either: spending 10K on a watch is pure madness.
The point I don’t agree with is “I feel I support the designer and the engineers” when buying from big corporations, I worked enough in the corporate world to know it’s not exactly like that, it’s why I started collecting micro/independent watches, there it is true.
Truth. Thinking that buying from corporate is somehow “supporting designers and engineers “ is naive and a bit altruistic and delusional. Whatever someone wants to tell themself to romanticise their own decisions is fine by me. The influence of marketing is powerful and the less spoken on matter of projecting an ethos to mask wanting to align with a particular narrative or brand via ideology is revealing as to the intoxicating influence of corporate shill and marketing.
There is even more truth to that when you consider most big name models were designed more than 50 years ago. Supporting designers really should come down to microbrands.
I’ve got a San Martin BB58 homage in my wrist right now. I’ve really been enjoying it, while also understanding full well what it is and what it isn’t. I grew to love the BB designs over the past year and I am saving up for one… but with my current income it will take me a few years to be able to afford the real thing! In the mean time, I am happy with what I’ve got. I do want to pay more for the superior movements. I find value in the craftsmanship and quality of the original. But I’m limited by what I can afford right now, so I am happy to have an affordable option in the mean time.
And that is the winning comment. Bravo. Kudos to you and enjoy these watches for what they are. Eventually you might be fortunate enough to enjoy the real one. I am rooting for you!!
As an owner of a san Martin BB pro homage i will also add, that it is an effective way to get into GMT watches. And it keeps time better than an orient or Seiko at the same price. And most of the time when I wear my BB homage I just enjoy the fact that this watch gets things done.
Just don’t expect too much “craftsmanship and quality” from the original. I sometimes buy San Martin homages to “test drive” the originals before getting them and, aside from the movement, I’ve never found big differences in quality and finish.
Literally my only quibble with that is not going all the way with it. Like, if you don't care about the movement, then don't care about the movement, you know? Save your money and get a quartz. ESPECIALLY if it's a closed case back. You can get a smooooth sweep in a high beat quartz movement nowadays if that's a problem, but if you're buying a crap movement anyway, why care. A quartz will be more accurate, and infinitely less likely to break. Insisting on a mechanical/automatic movement when you have to say 'the movement isn't great but I don't care about the movement' makes no sense. Save your money. Like, they should be offering a quartz version of every one of their watches. There are cheap movements that are super cool looking. But if it isn't one of those cool looking ones, I don't understand why you'd bother, you know?
Interesting topic and video. Would like to add 2 things. 1) San Martin is not a watch “factory”. They assemble watches with parts made from other sub-suppliers. Yes, they spec many of the items to their requirements, but they just assembly the watches. 2) An homage doesn’t needs to be 100% alike the “original” to be a great homage. That’s actually the point, it’s supposed to take inspiration from the original and create their version of it. So when so many do not like the look of the helium escape valve, it’s fine to remove it. Same with rivets on the bracelet. Also it’s fine to use generic clasp. It’s suppose to be a homage and not a replica bar the brand name.
💯. To make it clear: when you buy a San Martin, you buy parts which cost SIX TIMES less + no service. They buy parts from elsewhere, put them together, and call it San Martin.
Most watch brands buy a lot of parts from other suppliers and assemble them. This also goes for high end swiss brands. Most of them dont make their own dials, hairsprings, jewels, screws, crystals etc. Even Rolex outsources some parts. I think Seiko is the brand that makes the most parts themselves.
As usual you open the window of the stuffy room that is inhabited by the majority of TH-cam watch reviewers. Your videos are so impartial and balanced and above all intuitive. Its like having a lecture in business studies ( but way more entertaining) They currency that you are dealing with here is trust. Youvare earning it by the bucket load.
The most thoughtful critique of homage watches I have ever come across. I own both San Martins and Swiss watches, including a 214270 Rolex Explorer. The San Martins are great pieces for the money, but somehow feel unfinished. And, only one of my San Martins is a genuine homage, the other two being arguably more original in design. It’s clear to me now that that sense of being unfinished is due to the lack of nuances that you covered in this video. Bravo!
I own Omega, Breitling, DOXA, Christopher Ward and others at various price points. The bronze San Martin homage of the Captain Willard I own was cheap and looks fantastic. Would I buy a Captain WIllard at the current price of approx. £1000? Not a chance. So, the San Martin scratches an itch and I enjoy wearing it. I feel very differently, however, about my Omega Seamaster, Breitling Colt Chrono and DOXA Sub 300. These watches have heritage and lots that the homages simply don't and it's not even necessarily anything tangible. There's plenty of room for both homage and original watches. I love both for lots of completely polarised reasons. Thanks for another fantastic video.
Fully agree, I mentioned this before, if they were identical, rolex would still sell as they have history, infact rolex would sell more as there are more reps out there, so they become even more special to have the real deal.
Would not buy a Seiko because of ‘lack of heritage’ but happy to spend x3 for Doxa and own a CW? loughable comment And by the way you can buy a Willard for a lot less that £1000
Mike, first off, I appreciate your commentaries, opinions, and knowledge on horology, that's in addition to the fun European accent for me (maybe you find the US accent interesting as well). I find your comments generally very thoughtful, and I can see you try to be balanced (but I subscribe to the general notion that no one is completely unbiased.) I am Chinese, and I did NOT know enough of San Martin to realize its Chinese origin. Your video here certainly give me pause. So, beyond the positive aspect of educating the consumer, I will offer (without any solicitation on anyone's part) two points on made in China, and in particular to homage watches. 1) China is a developing country, and while it might be advanced in certain areas, it is a developing country. Just look at its per capita income and the country-side of China. There is quite a difference between US countryside vs. Chinese countryside. China is developing, and my point is simply that for a developing country, the emphasis is NOT the finer things of life. I am Chinese raised in HK, so I cannot completely speak for my ancestral countrymen, but from what I can see, the quintessential Chinese in the mainland cares for the essential. You can present them with the finer things of life, but they do NOT really appreciate them because it is about making money or survival, or making the first very bucket of gold (pardon the generalization, there is always the exceptions.) There is A LOT of dignity for people crossing the street in the US, but there is no such dignity thing in China. Finer things of life is a by-product of fulfilling the basics and more, so finer watches or dignity (a nebulous concept) are not that important to the general public (again excluding the richer folks.) I, as their fellow countrymen, will NOT blame them. I would be the same have I stayed in China. Yes, you certainly touch on that, and I am reinforcing your notion from the angle of a country development cycle. If you look at US at the wild wild West era, you will see a lot of crude things going on as well. 2) This is the Internet age, where information is proliferated. It is in Rolex, Omega obligation to give the general public a proper education of why they are better, in addition to their heritage and history, etc. Why obligation - because that's respecting their customers, and not believe me Rolex and pay the premium. (NOTE: I have NEVER been inside a Rolex store, may be that's where you get the education, so I just shoot myself in the foot here. I am aware of that possibility) Nonetheless, we all comparison shop or better yet value shop. I DO NOT mind paying a bundle more if I know there is all these under finer things going on. However, are these finer things (etching or heat-treated color, etc) are truly better and worth that much extra bundle, it is arguable and it is up to the consumer value perspective. You may have touched upon that ... that there is a component (emotional?) that cannot be easily quantified, which again is up to the individual. Both Rolex and San Martin need to educate their intended market (which your video accomplishes on Rolex's behalf,) but for me, I can pay a bundle for the finer things that you San Martin may not know or appreciate, so education is an aspect that need to be done. You have pulled your share of the load. However, the sky is not the limit for the premium. The finer thing premium curve has a diminishing rate of return beyond a certain point, and this point is different for different individual for a variety of reasons. Rolex will always has its market, but the good microbrands are capitalizing on this premium curve that give its consumers the many finer points with reasonable value. Again, just reiterating a point that you certainly have alluded in your other videos. Your value-related videos are very insightful and helpful, for whatever it is worth to tell you at this point ... cheers.
I have zero issue with homages. I think in many places it's quite frankly crazy to be wearing five figures on your wrist. In those instances a homage makes total and complete sense to me. Nevermind additional uses like figuring out what you like, getting into the watch game, etc.
Nobody care if you have any "issues" with homage watches because nobody cares about you period. That's the whole point. You are meaningless and so is your watch choice.
I am ok walking around with a $200 watch on my wrist. I would be too nervous with $20K sparkling from my wrist. Would only take one wrong person to notice. Wear the homage & lock the Rolex in a safe.
I'll be honest, I HAVE the money to buy an Omega or a Rolex (if Rolex were available at retail) but I CANNOT justify spending that money on a watch. I have other, much higher priorities like a wife who doesn't work, a son with special needs, a mortgage that I dream of paying off early, putting petrol in my car, putting money into my retirement fund etc - they will always come before an expensive watch. In other words, while I have the money, I do NOT have so much that $10k, $15k or $20k is an insignificant amount to me. Even nice Seiko's cost thousands these days! Wearing a San Martin lets me enjoy the look and feel of a watch I love, without feeling like I'm trying to deceive anyone and without neglecting much more important priorities. One day I will probably purchase an expensive Swiss watch but that day is still some way off. Fantastic video mate, I enjoyed it immensely and I appreciate you being so fair. Well done.
Rolex are available at retail..they are just not available to you...Which is exactly the reason I will always buy Rolex. They keep the riff raff from buying retail. Learn the game son...
San Martin have been making original design lately and they're good. The finishing on their watches are better than most "swiss" brands and even better than seikos
I have a Hruodland homage of the IWC big pilot turbine from 2008. It’s almost a direct copy from the front but it’s a really interesting case of a homage because the original watch is nearly unobtainable, only 11 were produced a decade and a half ago and really expensive. But that Hruodland is actually one of my favorite watches in my collection because of how unique it is and how well it is finished.
Great vid, small correction tho: 316L steel is a bit harder than 904L steel. I think luxury brands sacrifice some hardness in favor of corrosion resistance. In time, the steel in a Rolex will look better, beyond its give finishing and normal wear and tear. I agree with what you say. I've bought myself a Pagani Design homage to the legendary "Steve McQueen" Explorer II, and though it looks good, is hard to coneect emotionally with it.
I’ve been into horology TH-cam videos for as long as I can remember, but your wine analogy really hit differently-it’s stuck with me like no other. Congratulations on the channel!
I have only one San Martin, their interpretation of the Tudor Ranger. For me it’s a weird situation, this specific watch is not a homage, as the San Martin has so many differences from the Tudor: is 36mm, has applied indices, shows a different case structure and even uses different polishing techniques. In my opinion this one is an entirely different watch from the Tudor, with just what I would like from the Ranger, but that Tudor doesn’t get to produce. Watches like this one, for me, are an improvement to the original watch and not a homage, and if they continue delivering as well as they do with this one, I would keep buying them.
A homage watch does not mean it should be a 1:1 copy. It’s a watch that takes inspiration from the original and creates a version from it. So the SM 36mm Ranger is absolutely a homage watch, in the best way. It’s a good example of what a homage watch really is. 🙏
Just wait a decade or two until the Chinese really hit the mark with in-house movements. Assuming build quality and finishing continues to advance, too. We saw the Japanese revolution of the late 60s and 70s with the coming of quartz, and we may perhaps be on the verge of a new revolution. This time centered on Chinese advances sufficient to challenge Swiss luxury brands. True Swiss luxury brands, not just entry and mid-level. Only time will tell. No pun intended. I, for one, welcome that challenge. It can only benefit us as owners and enthusiasts.
Grand Seiko have proven that a Japanese watch company can be every bit as good as most Swiss watchmakers if not better than most. There is no reason that a Chinese watchmaker cannot do the same thing fairly quickly if they had the desire to enter the luxury scene.
Nailed it on all accounts. As a pleb who just bought a Pagani "Airking" (V2) because I cannot afford the real thing, I have a fair amount of hesitation wearing it. Your comments describe my misgivings, motivations, and justifications for spending less than $50 USD on it with surgical precision.
Love watching your channel...such a soothing voice describing my passion for watches...funny how youtube brings out the best in normal everyday people, great stuff👍👍😁😁
A friend of mine is a watchmaker in an authorized warrant service shop. His shop is authorized to provide warrant services on behalf of Richemont and Audemars Piguet. (Actually, they are the only one in Brazil). He told me San Martin provides an excellent cost-benefit. In the middle range, I own Tag Heuer, Seiko, Hamilton. I would like to purchase a Panerai. But those crazy bastards raise their prices at each 3 months. It is getting impossible. Experts say that US and China are still buying a lot of their production yet. The last ten years were crazy for the watch industry.
You consistently nail it on every hot watch topic. I've owned Steinhart homages and it never feels quite right. Even understanding the financial and business side of things, it always just feels like "you couldn't afford the real thing." I've gotten into countless arguments with friends trying to justify the cost of a luxury watch. The difference is really in how we view watches - a simple tool that tells time and doubles as a fashion accessory, or a piece of mechanical and functional art. I'd rather lust over watches I can't afford while owning original designs within my budget, than "fake it till I make it." It feels that much more rewarding when you can finally afford that grail.
In my case, I have a Steinhart Ocean One Military because I love the look of the Rolex Milsub but realistically know I'll never find an authentic Milsub (even many authentic Milsubs were modified once out of service), and that isn't a design that Rolex will bring back. I'd love to get a Tudor Black Bay 58 some day, and that watch is attainable so I'm not interested in any Tudor homages.
I think the thing we need to remember here is that every watch enthusiast is at a different point in their watch collecting. Homage brands allow a first-timer access to designs and ideas that would normally take years to achieve. How are you supposed to know what you like or what your style is without trying on or buying an homage? If the barrier for entry to “good design” and “quality” is several thousand dollars, then watch making and the entire industry is destined to fail. Homage brands are the lifeblood of the industry. They drive people into the watch world and then, maybe not now but eventually, those people will stick around long enough to spend serious money on a very serious and original watch. Or not. But either way, homage brands are good for the hobby.
Case in point: I thought I was a dive watch guy. Had only homage watches or original design dive watches for the bulk of my collection. I bought the Pagani Design Speedmaster Homage for like $65. And suddenly it hit me; I’m a Chrono guy. I freaking love a Chronograph. On paper, it wasn’t for me. But in the metal, on the wrist, wearing it day in and day out I realized what it was all about. So I passed that watch along and bought a Speedmaster. You could have given me 100 years of watch collecting, and I never would have bought a Speedy. But getting to try one out for a low cost of entry in an homage immediately convinced me to buy the real thing. Because I finally got it and understood what it would feel like to have one without having to drop $5,000 on a watch I wasn’t sure I would love.
This, it is how i got into watches, i didn't want to spend 500 bucks on a Seiko or something else. Ended up with a Speedy chrono mechaquartz from pegani design for ~130. It is a great way to develop your tastes in watches, i didn't know if i would enjoy a hand-wind movement as winding it everyday could be a chore. So bought a Hroudland and loved it, the clicking of the mech when you turn it is a really nice feeling. Also realised i didn't enjoy integrated bracelets/butterfly clasps. You get ideas of what fits you, what doesn't without spending a lot of money, while still getting decent movements that will last.
For me I believe homage and replica brands have a place and I tend to believe that it's not just a "parasitic" relationship but actually a "symbiotic" relationship. Homages / Replicas cannot exist without the original. There has to be something desirable that not everyone can attain. But on the other hand. The existence of the replica validates the desirability of the original. 😀
One of the best videos on the subject. When it comes to "how much is too much" for Swiss watches I always circle back to my 1970s comparison. In 1971 the Submariner retail price in the US was $200 and the cheapest car on the American market, the VW Beetle, was priced at ~$1800. So a little bit more than 1/10 of the cheapest car would get you a Rolex Submariner. Diving watches back then were rare and expensive not many watch manufacturers offered one. Today the cheapest cars in the US (Kia Rio, Chevrolet Spark, etc..) are priced at around $15K more or less where a Submariner is priced at ten grand and you can buy a 200M diver watch for $50-60 pretty much anywhere. People could say "well today's Submariner is much better than 1971 Submariner", very true but today's entry level car are on an entirely different level better than a 1971 VW Beetle. Adjusted for inflation, a Submariner today it should cost around $1200-1500 and at that price level is fully justified (heritage, original design, Swiss costs, R&D expenses, etc...) over a $200 high quality homage but current prices are simply nonsensical. This is my opinion. Congratulation again for the great content!!
Interesting Chanel! I'm 75 years old had over 18 watches mostly Swiss brands from Rolex to Maurice Laxcrois, Junghans, Citizen and Seiko Dive watches(I was a Dive Instructor) and my experience they all break after a while and need service if you can obtain the spare parts? Eventually, I gave most away to my Family including my wife some were Gold watches. Now at my age, I want convenience and own a G-shock and a Fossil Pathfinder ( not the best brand )booth Eco-solar drive a point that was important to me and affordable and for the next 10 years no hassle. I did the rabbit hole it was fun for a while.
Thank you for the fair, even-handed, and thoughtful discussion. I own quite a few homages and, so far, only 1 Swiss watch. I do miss some of the finer points, the original in-house movements with unique features such as complications and long power reserves, etc. I don't even really compare San Martin et al with the luxury Swiss brands at their stratospheric price ranges. What they are most likely to displace in my collection are the brands like Seiko, which deliver poor materials and poor quality in the same price range.
Wow! This is by far the most comprehensive and well articulated explanation of the reality and contrast between the Chinese homage watch industry vs original brand watch manufacturers. Absolutely phenomenal presentation. Kudos Mike. I own both. A few high end Swiss Made luxury watches which have great significance to me, and i also own lots of Chinese homages, with San Martin, Proxima, and Seestern being my favorites. I also own lots of microbrands and mid range name brands such as Seiko, Casio, Bulova, Citizen, etc. I love watches and appreciate it them all for what each offers. At any rate, i just discovered your channel Mike, and have subscribed. Looking forward to many more of your videos. Thanks you and regards.
I appreciate this video; especially your closing comments. Because I’m that guy who probably could spend a little more on a watch if I really wanted to. But man do these microbrands provide value for money! The thrifty side of me finds that hard to resist. Because the truth is, I’m also that guy who doesn’t care what people think about what I’m wearing as long as i get that feeling when I put it on my wrist. I’ve owned a Rolex Sub and ended up selling it after a year and only wearing it a few times. And I still own a Seamaster, a Raymond Weil, and a few others brands. But have transitioned to the microbrands recently because I love that feeling of wearing a watch I love and knowing I didn’t break the bank to get it. Long Live San Martin! Lone live the microbrands.
I am not interested in inflated Swiss prices, expensive marketing hype, mystical histories, expensive stores and huge profits. I want a quality watch at a fair price. Why should I care that Rolex lied about going to the top of Mount Everest?
Got a GMT San Martin (no homage, own design) as a beater to take on my photo trip to Tanzania. Worked fine, looked good, no concern if it got lost or damaged.
Best point you made Mike was that Rolex isnt losing any money to folks buying a San Martin homage. I luv the look of the Kermit Submariner but wasnt going to spend $15k on one so I got the San Martin homage with the PT5000 movement. So far the 2 areas I can tell where San Martin went cheap are the quality of the screw down crown and the lack of on-the-fly micro adjustment on the clasp. Other than that I am really enjoying the looks, comfort, and accuracy of this watch. I own an Omega, a Breitling, and a few Seiko’s, but this San Martin will definitely be in my rotation. Cheers 🍻
Excellent video Mike! I was hoping you’d dive deeper into this. The stigma is so bad that some TH-camrs refrain from even acknowledging their existence 🤔. A topic request for consideration that is sorta related: Ball Watch Company is very polarizing in the community. I’ve seen comments like “they are Chinese faking heritage” as a reason not to buy it. It makes me think about other brands like Laco where people won’t buy it due to past ties even though the people today are not the same. Yet, conversely Invicta is definitely a different direction than their legacy days. Brands and logos stir so much perception. Don’t know where I’m going with this but it does make my brain light up and I’m sure many of us would like to hear your thoughts!
Thanks for giving us your view on San Martin. They seem to be on every watch reviewers channels radar right now so there’s a lot of noise muddying our perceptions. Your videos always force me rethink about relevant points that are missed by others. Also cool mechs in the background.
Your assessment is as usual spot on. I am not a homage fan, but I see their value for new collectors or for collectors that cannot afford expensive watches. Heck, my son has one. He bought it after consulting me, and I told him that it would be a good value watch that was within his financial reach. However, I don’t like misleading reviews that will lead newcomers to the hobby to buy watches that may disappoint them. For instance, the other day I saw a video from a TH-camr the other day showing macro shots of a Rolex GMT Master and a San Martin homage. With each shot he would repeat incessantly that the Rolex quality was bad and that the San Martin was better. It was risible to say the least. “Coincidentally”, San Martin has photos of the same TH-camr on their AliExpress shop. Also coincidentally, the said TH-camr is located in Europe, but no longer in the EU… I have no issues with someone expressing their views and reviewing watches as they see fit. What I cannot accept is paid deception disguised as unbiased review. It is a long and rambling comment to say that I agree 100% with you.
There's a chance the San Martin's can do certain things better than Rolex puts them out. After all, Rolex makes their stuff largely in an assembly line manner. What's risible is assuming that's not possible. China does a lot of heavy lifting for the Swiss watch industry in particular with the things the San Martins of the world are great at: bracelets, machining, etc. That alone to me makes the claims in the video you're alluding to at the very least believable. I think this video makes a very clear case of technique vs design to juxtapose the homage vs original predicament impeccably. Rolex owns many iconic designs that others have copied to the point that they can be comparable or in some instances better than the real thing. These are also designs Rolex is very iterative with so it's not hard to catch up and perfect copies and then catch up on the tiny increments when Rolex comes up with them. That's also the reason why Rolexes in particular are so easy for factories to produce insane copies of. That is not necessarily the case with other high-end brands because Rolex makes solid tool watches that are not technically complex to produce. The movement is the real secret sauce. At this point cases, bracelets, dials, printing, all that stuff is easily replicable in a cheap manner and easy to improve upon from the originals. To illustrate, an easy way to tell a fake from a real Rolex is due to how perfect the printing on the copies can be. Rolex's printing is more blotchy and usually leaves droplets along the edges of letters under the loupe. Rolex could technically make their printing to that standard but they choose not to! Rolex is really what it is because it's a marketing powerhouse. Not necessarily because they're the absolute best watch maker on the planet and any high end collector worth their salt will absolutely agree with that.
@@lammyjammer6670 you make valid points. I’ll cite one example of that video that is deliberately misleading, the boundary between blue and red on the bezel. The claim was that the San Martin was a sharp line, whereas the Rolex was blurry. That TH-camr knows why this is the case, the Rolex bezel is supposed to be a fumee-style transition, which is harder and more expensive to make than a simple straight line. That was to me a deliberate attempt to deceive. I used to follow that channel, but that video led me to unsubscribe. I lost trust.
@@Time_Passages I usually take ILW videos with a grain of salt. Not particularly because he's a shill or anything but because his commentary in general is very biased. I don't personally feel he's 100% neutral in his point of view. It really hard to explain for me because he's not necessarily a watch snob but he does have a particular hate against Rolex. 😂 With that said, unless you're comparing 1:1 copies you can't really compare design elements. Homage watches purposely have to differ from originals in obvious ways that extend past the logo being different. The only merit between a comparison like the one he made is in technical execution of certain elements which yes, the SM did score points over the Rolex on some of those. But as far as I know, San Martin does not intend to make watches 1:1 comparable to the real thing. They purposely change small things here and there. Could they make a solid clone if they wanted to? They probably could. Technically they are definitely capable.
@@lammyjammer6670 good points. I agree they probably have the capability to make a super clone. I know one brand they make homages in a great way. Seiko. If only the more affordable Seiko had aligned bezels and sapphire crystal. SM for sure makes a better Seiko than Seiko itself.
Your basic take, often, is a humanistic one: buy what you like and spend what you feel you can afford. I agree with that, wholeheartedly. SM and other Chinese brands offer watch enthusiasts an opportunity to acquire attractive watches that generally work well. I can buy a Subaru SUV that has a decent design or a Porsche SUV that has higher quality components, goes faster and costs more to buy AND to own. Not exactly the same metaphor as the Picasso print. I just bought a Baltany Homage to a Hamilton military watch. $135 vs. $600. I could have afforded the Hamilton, but the Baltany was not only cheaper - in my opinion, it was actually better in some ways. But that's just an anomaly; most SM homages are many thousands of dollars cheaper than their iconic inspirations and I would never spend that kind of money on a watch, but I'm happy to spend $200 on a SM homage that looks great - works well and if someone rips it off my wrist, I won't be devastated. I totally agree it would be lovely to support designers and engineers if I could but my guess is I'll only do that for a Formex or a Henry Archer or a Farer (and the like) - where the balance of creativity and originality and design doesn't come at Rolex or Omega prices. No matter what, I truly appreciate your thoughts and presentation.
Every time I get wrapped around the axel on watches (especially reading forums), I come watch one of your videos and appreciate the commons sense. Keep keepin' on, man.
I own the BB pro and I own the San Martin homage of it as a beater there is no comparison the Tudor is miles ahead in quality , fit and finish and of course the movement but I do see San Martin as a gateway for people to try the homage whilst deciding if they want the real thing.
I actually have money for the BB pro, and almost went and bought it. But the dimensions just arent right for me. The San Martin BB pro homage has the slimmer, more elegant dimensions I would expect from Tudor. But Tudor is hands down better quality, its also about 30 times as expensive
@@simonrodriguez7204 the fact that you have the money for it means that you’re wise with your money. Only you can and should define your happiness. Enjoy whichever guilt free:)
This is an amazing conversation. I do own a San Martin, and I appreciate it for what it is. I also own Omega SM300, PO600, Speedy Professional, Seamaster Railmaster, and a DateJust. Your conversation on the engineering and design prompted me to put on a Citizen Eco Drive Racer Chrono which I love. It's an awesome watch - original design, chrono function, date, alarm, decent bracelet, and solar power. Cheap to most watch snobs, but it's a watch that is completely original and could do whatever I asked it to do at a reasonable price with beautiful panda style. Bonus - 200m WR. I'm not against a homage at all as long as it's not pretending to be more. I'd rather someone wear that than an Apple Watch, but you reminded me that affordability and originality can live together.
Excellent video once again. I couldn't agree more. As value for money is very close to the top of my priority list, I have no problem buying a San Martin. I'm just waiting for them to release one of their 'original design' (idk if it actually is or not) watches that really appeal to me. The SN0129 was very close... but not quite.
Well, that was the one mostly shown in the video, ironically an original on display when Mike was just talking about homages. Anyway,, I own the original designs SN0026 and SN0033, both very nice watches. The first release of their Jianghun subrand, the "war drum", was a big miss though.
There's a reason I chose the year of the dragon watch - because it's original and I thought it looked quite cool. Not my "style" but I thought it was quite interesting 😀
Outstanding analysis and perspective. I do find it interesting that many humans get so wrapped up in what others think or perceive what they think others think re: watches. Many mistakenly put way too much emphasis and credence around other’s opinions and judgments vs. Buying what they like. I have plenty of money to buy most luxury watches, but I am not willing to pay for the added expense. Paying way more to “flex” seems so externally focused to me.
San martin is right to focus on the things people caarw about. The movement is not one of them. Watches are jewlery. They are fashion items whether we admit it or not. No one needs high accuracy in a mechanical watch. In house movements are a scam to justify more money. Also the law of diminishing returns. Its just not worth paying for features you cant even see. High end luxury watches are more anout the status symbol that yhe watch itself. If you remove the logo from a steel Sub how much would you pay? Its a boring old fashioned design. Id pay 2000 tops.
Spot on. I buy a watch if I like the design and execution (up to a limit of 12 in my watch box). A few San Martins for sure. I'll wear my token good watch for events where I know there's snobbery. I used to have nothing but Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Tudor, JLC and TAG, but now I just have one Tudor as my token good watch as I've realised the whole thing watch thing is just a big old wank, plus I'd rather have nVIDIA shares that a piece of metal I'm bored with. I mostly have microbrands though - Henry Archer, Christopher Ward (microbrand-ish but not really but yeah whatever), and some others, and half the time I don't even set the watch unless I"m bored during the day. It's mostly male jewellery.
You’re right on the fact that most people don’t care about the movement. Because wether it’s a high end Rolex movement (+/-2s a day) or a NH35 (+/-40s a day), if I really care about the accuracy of time I’ll just use my smartphone…
I love the way you make me think beyond a review. Why do I spend money on relatively cheap mechanical watches ? Maybe it's the reason I also love vinyl. Single malt. Real leather shoes. I scrape by with what I earn,but I buy what I can afford when I can. There is something about paying attention to how you choose items. Take care of it (maintenance if you will). The emotion of using it, and reading/listening to other like minded people , as their preferences. Good work !
There is a fundamental material cost - and the homage brands demonstrate that the material cost is low. You then have to look at what you are buying in to beyond the purely material - and this is where the watch industry excels at selling dreams/lies (however you choose to interpret it). One particular point raised in the video is the issue of original design and cost - yet no one can point to the industry and say that there has been marked innovation of any real kind. Thus, by this logic, Tudor is offering no more than subtle reflections on Rolex (homage) whilst allowing Rolex to push the price up to maintain an 'exclusive brand' status. The idea that Rolex / Tudor boardrooms are not involved in discussing such issues merely reinforces the point that 'smoke and mirrors' exist and operate - and likely across the industry. In a recent video a well known watch commentator opined that the reduction in sales in mechanical watches could only be tackled by raising the prices on existing watches in order to make as much money as possible from any existing sales. A better example of brand / market suicide is hard to think of - the quartz crisis was a long time ago and there is only so much 'myth' you can pump in to an (already) mythologicaly inflated market.
Rob -- i concur on your observations for the firms, but have a slightly different view from the consumer end. My answer to "when buying a mechnical watch today, what -- exactly -- are consumers paying for?" is nothing other than "a piece of art on the wrist". Sure they have some utility, but vastly less than easily obtainable via quartz or -- Gawd help us -- smart watches for more modest expenditure. But that is okay. What use are cuff links or ties? Have you priced a silk tie lately? On my wrist at the moment is a SM homage to a 1950s brand R GMT Master model, with the GMT bezel set to Eastern Europe. "Yes" i can see both my time and those of a client i have at a glance. But there dozens of Casio or Citizen models that will do the same more accurately for less than the $350 i paid. For me mainly it is lovely to look at. For others, the same is true but they will pay factors of 30+ to have "Brand R" on the dial. Then there was Sam Walton, who wore a brand R watch . . . which he concealed with a Timex band . . . Getting back to your closing observation: what controls the ability of luxury manufacturers to raise prices? The answer is customer demand resistance ("elasticity"), and nothing contributes to that more than the availability of close substitutes . . . like SM . . . So even if you buy brand R, you should be thankful for the homage marketplace. Something tells me that, as a group, they don't recognize that, but Sam Walton would have. -- gary
For the reasons you mentioned, I've stopped buying homages. I'd rather support a microbrand. The replica/homage debate will never go away. For some buying a homage is acceptable, for others it is tantamount to supporting fakes or unauthorized copies. Great video as always!
Agree. I have a Helm Komodo that I really like and I have no issues with affordable watches from Orient, Seiko or Citizen. I rather have one of those than a "clonage" that will remind me every time I see it that I don't have the real deal.
Great review and perspective. I am one those who always swore by swiss brands and have some swiss pieces from omega to longines to tissot but have grown to enjoy and like San Martin. For the price and finish, that's what you are going for, it can't be beat and may have a nh34 or nh35 movement but its reliable and less expensive to maintain if anything does go wrong. I get a scratch or ding on it, not too annoyed with it, whereas when i do with my longines or omega I sort of do given what I paid for it. To each its own and 100% true, I concur "buy what you like/love", its going on your wrist so should be proud to wear it and not what the watch herd says you should wear. As watch collectors, pieces come and go as your journey continues and watch tastes change over time. For myself, even every few years. Keep up the great work. Cheers!
I'm watching this video for the 3rd time, coming back to it every couple of weeks It really gives me an understanding of what the Chinese brands offer and don't offer
Great video and interesting topic. Something I would like to add to the conversation is “why”. When the watch is bought out of genuine interest or appreciation for it - I agree 100% - brand is almost exclusively a marketing. San Martin, Pagani, Steinhart - if you like the watch and it’s in your budget go for it. Now that said I feel many are buying homage watches to dress up as a wealthy and successful person. When someone says he got a Submariner homage because he loves the design but he can’t afford or has no access the original, my immediate thought is “really? out of thousands of new dive watches released every year the Sub is the most interesting and intriguing design?” I’m afraid the most common reason to buy homage is not a legitimate love for said watch or horology in general. And to be fair to homage buyers, people who go into debt to buy an original piece are guilty of the same sin. Pretending to be someone who they aren’t. Know it’s a bit harsh, but I feel this is the ugly truth.
Thanks. Good points. I do think there is something about the power of icons. the more I look at a Submariner vs eg. a Panerai, the Submariner is quintissentially uninteresting. It's so very simple. So "interesting design", I'd say no from a "quirks" perspective. But from a refinement perspective, then maybe. Design is hard to quantify - but I see your point 😀
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch So true, but homages in most cases lack the refinement one might expect from the original. Agree that Rolex’s designs may be considered timeless by many, hence I do not completely dismiss homage buyers. You often use an automotive examples - interestingly there are Chinese and Indian “homages” of Jeeps and Land Rovers, I completely understand why people would want to buy them (price), but quality trade offs are quite obvious. Another example are Kia and Hyundai - cheap cars and low quality copies of Japanese models in the 80s and 90s, huge quality jump in early 2000s and here we are - Korean cars are not cheap anymore. I feel we are not disagreeing, just saying the same thing with different words :). I’ll keep quiet now.😀 Take care
I have sprung for original, expensive watches, so there are times it feels worth it. I also own homages when it hasn't felt worth it, but I always remember that the homage would be nothing without the original design. No one would want an homage if it didn't echo the real thing in some way. Interesting to me are the well made affordable microbrands, no need to spend five or twenty five grand or more, you're personally supporting an original creator, and worth the money, even when a thousand dollars. Subscribed. GREAT CONTENT!
Mike, Once again, a great perspective on the value of both ends of the spectrum. Much appreciated. All of the inuendos you mentioned are true - and I, like you, appreciate the "masters" who actually dreamed up what finally becomes a watch on your wrist. You, almost offhandedly, mentioned that a watch is really not a necessity (paraphrased, of course) in today's age. Which brings me to another argument you made in a previous video. You mentioned that the price is relevant to who is actually putting out the money. For a millionaire, a Rolex is a nice daily wear watch. For "Joe 6-pack," a Rolex is an Abhorrent amount to pay for a watch, but a San Martin fits the budget and makes sense. My collection is nothing in comparison to yours (I'm guessing - you don't parade your collection) with the high-dollar watch at $1,300, but I enjoy what is on my wrist for more emotional reasons - not current market value. Would I have a Rolex if money was no object - absolutely. But money is an object, and I remain in a "state of peace" where I am. So, I enjoy the background and ingenuity of Rolex (and other top brands), but I am happy when I look at my wrist and see the second hand sweeping softly. Time marches on, regardless of what I am wearing. I'd still like to know what your impression of the Ginault "Silent Service" is.................
Sir, an excellent breakdown. May I bring your attention to Nomdic in Belfast Northern Ireland 🇬🇧. They sell rebranded San Martin with an upgraded case and Selita Movement and charge £1000 for the privilege. They make it seem that the watch is built in Belfast. A total farce and an expensive one to boot. Salutation’s from Belfast Northern Ireland 🇬🇧
Did you conduct original research on 904L steel? A machinist informed that it is no more costly to manufacture than 316, and can use the same tooling on it. It is also softer than 316L afaik
From a hardness pespective (brinell / rockwell / whichever) there is little that differentiates them but yes, technically from a pure hardness perspectice 904l is maybe 1% softer. To be clear I never stated that 904L was harder than 316L. I stated it was harder to machine. From a machining perspective 904l is harder to machine and wears down machine bits faster. This is because there’s more chromium in the alloy (4-6% more) affecting the thermal condictivity. Thermal conductivity is low(er). The lower the thermal conductivity of the material being processed, the less heat carried away by the chip and the workpiece, and the more heat accumulated on the tool, making the tools wear more easily.
@MegaThucydudes Good point, plus 904l also is not surgical quality stainless steel. 316l is surgical quality stainless steel and is used in biomedical applications. I know people who have skin issues with wearing watches that are not 316l and titanium.
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch Regarding 904L's increased difficulty to machine, is it a significant or negligible increase? I was led to believe it is a negligible difference between 316 and 904 in terms of machining costs, but I don't claim expertise in the subject. I think we'd all be on sound footing if we hold that the main reasons for Rolex switching to 904L is increased corrosion resistance (historical reason, and only applicable to the dive models), and the fact that 904L polishes to greater jewellery SHINE. Any additional superlatives that Rolex's marketing tries to pin on its steel should be taken with a grain of salt
Amazing presentation again. No other channel explains the intricacies of the watch business like this. Just a pleasure to listen to. Keep up this excellent work.
San Marin often improves on the original and put their own twist to the original design. Like reducing the thickness of the bb pro homage and putting a while dial in which Tudor doesn’t produce. Tudor was lazy for not trying to make a slimmer version of their gmt movement for smaller models.
I have really gone back and forth with this question. Can I afford a Rolex or an Omega? No. Do I want a San Martin homage of those? Possibly. But will I be happy knowing I am wearing something that is trying to be something else that I cannot have? Probably not.
E se em vez de relógios fosse uma garota? Uma garota quase idêntica aquela atriz famosa dos seus sonhos. Você não a namoraria porque ela não é a atriz original ? Hugs 😂
Thanks for video because I found it a very valuable and insightful assessment and contrast of the subtle nuances between homages and the name brand originals. God bless.
If nobody bought a Rolex just to show off how rich they are, then Rolex's would cost 1/10 of what they cost today. Like they did 30-40 years ago. Fact. Cry about homages if you want, but a rational person with no need to show of their wealth, who only cared about bang for the buck, would never buy a Swiss luxury watch. The entire business is based on rich people bragging with their wealth. The actual watch enthusiasts are a tiny minority.
This is true. In the 1960s, a Rolex Explorer could be had for ~$150 which would equate to ~$1700 in today's money. If you can even buy one today, it is >$7000. Not quite 10X more, but quite a bit inflated from what these watches sold for in the 60s and 70s. Back then, Rolex was an expensive but high quality tool watch, not a luxury status product.
In 1980 the Rolex Sub Pepsi Bezel was $650 in my US military exchange store and there was no limit on availability. A Seiko diver was $150. I bought the Seiko - worked without service for over 25 years including SCUBA diving.
This was a really great video. My dream/fantasy watch has always been a Rolex Submariner in Titanium. So far they haven't made it but maybe one day. Well San Martin did. Well technically it's a vintage Sea Dweller 116600 but it's close enough. It's an absolutely beautiful watch in grade 5 Titanium with a Sellita SW200 movement. This is why I love San Martin and all homage watch makers.
You can spend 10K on a luxury watch, or you can choose from any number of really cool sub 1K watches, wear that one, and invest that 10K to reasonably have 20K 10 years from now. So buying that ultra-marketed watch costs you a lot more than 10K in the long run.
Those buying the 10K watch are not people thinking about what happens to their 10K in 10 years. It is a luxury product for the wealthy. If one has to make such a cost calculation for a purchase, then in reality they probably cannot afford the watch. Luxury purchases should only be made at a level where they do not have a significant impact on ones finances.
People who have 10k plus to buy a watch have far far more in investments. If a luxury high horology piece that is in their budget brings them enjoyment, that is worth more than money
There are millions of people on planet of net worth above , say eur 1000k. They pay because watch is very expensive, better more expensive than neighbour's
Thanks for the Video. Looking at the last releases, San Martin seems to start to evolve a bit. Newer watches are using a Miyota 8315 instead the NH35 and they release a few own designs instead of homages.
Nice hard look at what San Martin does. Especially the video of the guys squatting to polish the cases. I would just add two things: Steinhart has homages of discontinued watches - I own the McQueen Explorer II homage. Rolex won’t bring it back - and if they did no mortal like me would ever get a chance to buy it. And that’s the 2nd point: many of us would buy the Rolex IF we could get it at MSRP. I got the Pagani of the Rolex grail watch I’m on 3 waiting lists for.
Good video and discussion. I like and have both. They serve difference purposes. My Seamaster 2254.50, explorer 2 16570 and FXD are original designs that cannot be substituted by a homage for me. I have them because they call to me My San Martin SN0138 is a homage to a watch that kind of doesn't exist - a 37mm BB58 with a ceramic bezel. A BB58 or BB54, in their current iterations, is not on my wishlist at the moment. But I love that I get to experience how amazing a decent on-the-fly micro-adjust bracelet is (man is it good, a game-changer) The San Martin BB Pro homage is also something I enjoy, because although I like the design, I’d never by the Tudor, because I have a polar Explorer 2.
I have zero issues with buying a SM homage of Rolex, AP, et. al. I'm not taking money from those companies because there is no universe in which I would ever BUY one of those things because of price. Hell, I can't even FIND one. Omega used to be a value proposition alternative to Rolex. Not any more. Omega decided to go head to head with the Big R. Omega is simply more available at retail. I do draw the line at Seiko/Doxa/Tissot homages. Those brand name watches are available and relatively affordable. No reason to go the homage route on a Tissot.
Great video as always Mike. I would argue some of the identity and brand value San Martin (unsure about/no experience with others but I suppose in principle applies) is that it stands for nothing but giving you specs for money. Knowing that others look down on the brand, writing them off as a cloning lab. That in itself is a statement. Nothing fancy or cutting edge in terms of finishing. Just a solid job at the basics. Would also say they have some semi original designs so dismissing them as purely homage is a bit unfair. Ultimately the world would be a very boring and sad place if they were the only game in town but I think they definitely fill a role and still make a statement about the person wearing it and their intentions as much as any other brand. Totally agree with most other points made and some of the sentiment of this comment is indeed in your video. Cheers!
Hot take but maybe copying Rolex and Tudor while you figure out how to have the best quality and finishing for the money in the entire industry, and then come out with your own original designs was a smart play
I bought a homage of the Serica 5303 with a Selita movement, when Serica failed in giving a movement that works and refused to fix it. I also bought a Selita movement in a Engineer Iwc homage when I found out the price because I like the design but would feel less of an idiot with a homage with a decent movement. Besides that I am new to collecting and sticking to Seiko LX Springdrive , Citezin promaster and Glycine
My San Martin runs on time, looks great has no Swiss crap inside, solid Japanese based technique, great watch. I do not dive, I moped. I don't like useless bling on watches.
Been collecting for years , but can honestly say san martin etc are unbelievable for the money. And the biggest plus point is you dont have to worry about them. That said an original design by a top swiss maker , is a different level , and generally makes you feel special to own one . Are they worth the extra premium , which can be 20x the amount , because of the original design and marketing costs , well thats up to you as a consumer .
He just sold me a San Martin. you can romanticise all you like about rolex etc, but my money is my money. you would be crazy to buy a rolex when you can get the stylee for 200 quid
@@richardmorris7063the point is you don’t enjoy the Mercedes, you enjoy the Mercedes logo. That’s why you see a LOT of Mercedes base models with not much more than wheel, seats, tires and gearbox. Same goes for watches. It’s almost all about the name on the dial.
Thanks, a fair and balanced brand review, once again. A creative!! micro brand can be the right compromise between San Martin and very high price watches. In this way, independent design can be appreciated at a moderate price. At least that is my approach at the moment. The question remains: what about the longtime availability of the spares for that micro-brand? And I'm not talking about the movement itself here.
Very accurate, however leaving aside certain brands many swiss watches have the same movement that are made in mass nothing special about it anymore, but the price is still very high, in the end we pay for the "heritage", is in this thing that the chinesse people see a market oportunity. Also exists many microbrands with own designs that are very well. The main complain about watches market are the "Swiss made" legend cost a lot for a product that in many cases is not handmade anymore but the price mantains as if it was.
The Quartz PRX missed all the markers. Seiko prices went up and quality went down(compared to my Sarb's). And Hamilton also had is issues with movements.
Excellently interpreted the broad aspects within the market in the global watch industry. San Martin from China is controlling the game in the micro brand baseline.. You speak very well and have pinned several key observations on how the market operates. China is becoming quite rich with their western customers. Thank you for the educational coverage in relation to all of the above.
I don’t see a reason to pay 1000s of dollars for a good watch. I like to use the watch in the ocean, at the beach or at work. I want a companion I can take everywhere and if time has come letting have its rest. With expensive watches I’d give them more attention and I don’t want that. Plus most expensive watches fulfill the purpose of flexing in general or getting attention from watch lovers - a very niche group of people.
Great video as always. Most people that buy homages (not replicas) are doing it just for fun and that they are mostly cheap, or/and as an dressing detail or kind of jewelry. Personally, I own solid & expensive brand watches which I bought and inherited, but sometimes those homages are simply more enjoyable because you are not as careful with. Parts are more easily replaceable or serviceable/changed. Cheers!
Most Swiss brands started out as parts-makers for the French watch industry, and then became homage makers, basing all their full-watch designs on existing French watches, and then after a while they moved to creating original pieces of their own. Brands like San Martin have already started making their own 'original designs' - it's very early days, and their rate of change far outpaces any rate of improvement that was seen in Swiss watch making. Wait a few years.
You have become the only watch channel I need in my life. Your videos feel more like a contemplation of life through the lense of watches. I really appreciate that.
Dude, this sounds like a bromance! ❤
The thinking mans's Pete McConvill
Him and Jeff Mcmahon
Glad you enjoy my videos 😀😀
That's like buying one brand only. Variety is better, and more minds of matter is always better.
I've been anti-homage until very recently.
Last year I purchased and quickly let go of a Tudor Pelagos 39. I enjoyed the watch for the summer, but it was not perfect for me to keep around: the glossy black dial on a tool watch didn't feel right; I wanted a date window; it had no no inner-chapter ring like on the normal Pelagos; and there is no blue option - all of this made it feel lackluster and a bit underwhelming to wear, especially for the price.
I recently discovered San Martin makes a well-regarded Pelagos 39 homage that comes with the chapter ring, option for date at 3 or 6, in gorgeous dark FXD blue or even a nice green, and in both titanium or stainless steel. I jumped right on it.
It just arrived last week and I'm very impressed. The bezel is snappy and perfectly lined up. The movement is plenty accurate for Seiko standards. And most importantly, it feels and looks great on wrist.
To me, San Martin beat Tudor at their own game in making the dream Pelagos I've always wanted. I'm a happy customer and will keep an eye out for their future releases.
That watch is San Martins best homage. And as you say, mix both the P42 and P39 together, to make the best of both worlds. A true homage watch, not a copy, as many seem to think a homage watch is. 🙏🙌
If the Pelagos 42 has the matt tool look, the dial, the date and the blue you want, just get the Pelagos 42 🤷♂️
@@GM-ii8gs "just get" a $4,000 oversized and outdated watch with no t-fit clasp or their new movement. I'm good.
Without a real Tudor there will be no Tudor pattern copies.
I feel the same way about my blue enamel San Martin "Ranger," they took the Tudor design and didn't replicate it, they improved it with applied indices and a variety of dial colors and a 38mm case (instead of the 39mm). They are doing a good job of listening to the market's reaction to watches and making the tweaks many of us want in their homage offerings.
Here's the thing, I'm a watch collector and enthusiast.....so I have a small budget I have to allocate to this hobby I enjoy, so I have to choose wisely. I initially dismissed San Martin and other Chinese watches years ago, until recently I realized many other brands use Chinese parts, even well known Swiss brands. So I gave San Martin a shot, I figured.........how bad can it be, boy was I wrong wrong wrong. These watches from San Martin are high quality, the fit and finish is exceptional. I will enjoy my new San Martin with the Seiko NH35 movement for what it is. In the end....nobody cares if you have an $8000 Rolex or a $180 Chinese San Martin on your wrist, Only if you enjoy the watches.
In fact people will probably hate u for having it. Its the world we live in,people get jealous. My friend spends as much on automatic weapons as I do on watches. He doesn't even shoot them! But I guess it makes him happy.
So companies that "homage" a Rolex etal are critized for copying a Rolex because it doesn't cost as much in design but then you criticize San Martin for not copying the luxury brand EXACTLY by not having every detail of the luxury watch down pat and possibly even leaving out such things as an escape valve on an Omega-like homage.
If you leave such things as an escape valve out is it still a copy and therefore should it be criticized for not including the escape valve? It can't be both a copy and not exact enough to qualify as a copy at the same time.
We all understand that a Rolex is a feeling and to some a status symbol first and foremost that happens to be in the form of a watch.
The contrived fabrication of a watch defining a person's status as displayed in the form of an elite watch is really not something to be praised but far too often to some people it is the purpose of the watch. They can tell time on their cellphone. The function of the the watch is secondary to its use as a status symbol. We can wax poetically about the history and the vision of the dedicated artisans of old designing and constructing a magnificent monument to the art of horology till the cows come home but that old master watchmaker kicked the bucket long ago.
The watch designer now is the master of Autocad. Computers are the replacement for the pencil and paper. Certainly skilled watch assemblers are still employed, though in a much less romantic mystique bent, to produce the watches to send to the shipping department . It's all about the shipping department.
Many parts arrive from sources other than Switzerland (and in many cases they are increasingly from China, ) whereupon those parts are matched with other parts from various suppliers, and a watch is produced.
The romance is in the mind of the beholder because it has been planted there over generations to revere a long lost craftsmanship that no longer applies.
Watches are now "assembled" not crafted by artisans.
The mystique is gone.
That mystique can only survive by way of marketting the luxury watch as a status symbol in the minds of those who use the watch as a way to keep score of that status.
We are in a modern world of manufacturing. Certainly there are pockets of old world craftsmanship that still exist but very quickly those pockets are becoming no longer relevant.
The rise of superior efficiencies in manufacturing is making many processes very much less relevant thus the skills of the craftsman such as the master carver of wood are being replaced by the computer aided laser.
There is less and less need for a watch to be ridiculously expensive once the full force of efficient computer based manufacturing takes over.
This fact is the real reason that Rolex vs San Martin lines are becoming clouded.
When the old masters are distant memories the new masters of the computer age will take over producing perfect watches for little money.
The Rolex AD glory days of making customers beg for their turn to be selected as being worthy to pay outlandish sums of money for a watch are numbered.
It will take time but the process is speeding up every day.
The value of a watch will be measured by the level of excellence in the computerized manufacture, not the blackmail of the Authorized Dealer.
There will always be a market for true vintage timepieces that can command top dollar due to the horology and rarity but the new luxury watch markets' days are numbered.
The guy with the best computers wins.
I have a San Martin with sellita movement,and it runs within COSC parameters. It is a 62MAS homage that even improves the original watch and of course the official Seiko reissues that are oversized and are extremely expensive limited editions.
Your clarity, humility and total absence of prejudice is not seen on any other TH-cam channel, on any topic. Especially considering that you do have the money to buy luxury watches. Greetings from Argentina.
I can actually hear the ass-kissing sounds all the way over here in America
Best and most thoughtful analysis on homage brands that I’ve seen on TH-cam. 😊
Thank you .😀
Just picked up my first San Martin for $150. It was the SN0139 dive watch. A lot of people call it a SeaQ homage but I think it looks closer to the classic skindiver look that a lot of the 60's brands used (Douglas, Le Forban, Wolbrook, etc.) I collect mostly mid-tier Seikos so the NH35 movement doesn't bother me. The thing that really blew me away was the case finishing and bracelet quality. It reminds me of my buddy's Tudor in terms of the overall manufacturing quality of the hardware. The dial is beautiful and there are no mis-alignment issues. It really is that good! I can't believe this is now the "nicest" watch in my collection. I know why I should pay more for a Tudor - R&D, marketing costs, a superior movement, heritage etc - but do those factors justify a 4000% increase in cost when this San Martin feels just as premium, keeps great time, and looks stunning on my wrist? I am not so sure...
Define keeps great time? A Rolex is a 2 second a day watch. These cheap garbage watches run 20 seconds off per day. 6 if you pay a watchmaker $500 more to tinker with them and then they can hold that for maybe 3 years max v. 10 for the Rolex.
Their Tudor homage watches used to have the rivet bracelet, it wasn’t even fake, they were actual rivet screws. Their customers told them not to use the rivet bracelet as they didn’t want it. As nice as it is, I have two.
Mike,
Thank you for this thoughtful presentation.
One point I would like to bring up, that wasn’t discussed in the video, is the fact that the majority of watches sold around the globe are not purchased by watch enthusiasts. Overwhelmingly, consumers look for watches that are reasonably priced and reasonably reliable. The vast majority of consumers are not interested in brand history or watch movements. If you lose a $10,000 Rolex, you’re probably not going to replace it anytime soon. Lose a San Martin, and you can replace it today.
Something to think about.
Let alone if you're average customer could name a watch brand besides Casio (or possibly Rolex)
@@matricious Good Point. 👍👍👍
Very well put👌🏻!
Thankfully, for those that do care about history or originality, there are brands that give us that at the same price point. You don't have to choose between worrying about loosing the watch and getting an original design.
@@dhshatzer
What other brand offers the same level of quality and finishing
( at the same price )
Of a San Martin SN0129G
Or the new SN0130G.
There are none that come to mind.
If I’m missed a brand or two, please chime in. As far as I can tell, San Martin dominate the under $500 watch market in terms of quality with their bracelets and case finishing.
San Martin also just started coming out with original watches which are equally exceptional. With these watches there really isn't much of an argument against purchasing them.
I've watched a LOT of watch review (channels), but this is the one we've all been looking for. THANK YOU!
You are so welcome 😀😀😀
I think you've missed out the affordability of the homages for some people, especially for other countries. The minimum wage for my country is around $300. Splurging on a Tudor, Rolex or other swiss watches is incomprehensible and unattainable to many, many people. Not all watch enthusiasts are from countries with strong currencies. Everyone knows how intricate, detailed and history filled an expensive watch is, but not everyone outside of the first world countries will be able to save up for it.
Buy and wear what you like and can afford. Do not listen to watch snobs.
I did pull the trigger and buy a san martin. It was the zulu timer homage and I absolutely love it. The finishing, the bracelet quality, the regulation they do to the movement and the premium materials they use.
So bottom line is, ur getting far more for far less. Keep up the good work and looking forward to more of your videos.
Your statement on original designs is the reason I became a fan of Aragon watches. Extremely affordable, good quality and original designs
I love them but usually too big
Very well stated. I think people get this argument wrong a lot on both sides (anti-homage and anti-luxury), neither are bad, they just offer different things and it comes down to preference and what you find important. For me I have both, (to be fair the expensive stuff I own I've received as gifts, the cheap stuff I bought myself). But I find I wear the cheaper stuff more often (more micro-brands than Chinese homages, but I have some of those too). I own 3 San Martin watches and all of them are shockingly good and I really like all of them. My current favorite watch is a San Martin, which took a Tudor design (39mm Ranger) that I've always liked and fixed the stuff I didn't like about it (printed dial and lack of color choices, and San Martin took the case down to 38mm). This thing is GD beautiful! I like the applied indices better than the printed dial on the Tudor and the blue enamel dial is amazing and changes the look dramatically from the black Tudor. Nobody would mistake this thing for a Tudor (and I wouldn't want them to). Buy what you like and enjoy!
The two worst things about homage watches. 1) People that think it's basically Rolex or whatever brand minus the movement. 2) People that look down on others who buy them. I think homage watches are great. They can get people interested in watches and can provide a really solid watch for the price if you don't care about brand. I started off with Squale, San Martin, and Steinhart. I've sold them all and now own Tudor and Grand Seiko. To me, I think the best middle ground between high end and cheap are Seiko SPB line especially in the secondary market. Great video as always.
Agreed. However, Squale is a legitimate brand in its own right. If you choose one of their original designs. They have heritage and legit dive lineage.
I also moved away from Steinhart to Omega
But the lines are blurry. Plenty of people accuse Tudor of being a poor copy of Rolex
I have a Sub of late 80s vintage. I have a BB 54 and a Pelagos. Both newer vintange. Both Tudors blow away my Sub. Now I concide the comparison is apples to oranges. However, if we take a new BB at $3600 vs. a Sub at $12,000, well, it really is a no-brainer. The Tudor is a better option. I love my Sub, but they are not worth the price or headache to procure a new one. I absolutely LOVE my Pelagos. I don't think you need to choose one over the other. They are both legit brands with storied histories. For me, though, if I was going to drop $15,000 on a watch, it isn't going to be a Sub. Perhaps another model Rolex, but more likely another brand, which truly represents $15,000 value and quality. But that is just me. I own and wear what I find interesting. Be that a Casio or Rolex, and I could care less what others think. I am also a huge fan of Casio and Citizen. I have and wear much more expensive watches, but in the end, they just satisfy an itch. My current itch is an Omega Deville Tresore.
Agree. But i would love if microbrands in general avoid homages or styles that remind you of high end watches. I don't have any Studio Underdog watch because they are sold out every time i try to buy them, but the guy who designs them is really daring and honest; in fact, the Chinese are now imitating his watches. I love microbrands that try something relatively new; that's why i have a humble Mr Jones Mare Adesso, a Moels & Co, and a couple of colorful Farers that someone described, accurately, as children's watches. I would never buy anything that looks like a Tudor or a Rolex. In fact, i would never buy a real Rolex either: spending 10K on a watch is pure madness.
Fully agree. You eventually outgrow homages. I started with the Steinharts of the world and ended up with the real deals. There is no substitute.
The point I don’t agree with is “I feel I support the designer and the engineers” when buying from big corporations, I worked enough in the corporate world to know it’s not exactly like that, it’s why I started collecting micro/independent watches, there it is true.
Truth. Thinking that buying from corporate is somehow “supporting designers and engineers “ is naive and a bit altruistic and delusional.
Whatever someone wants to tell themself to romanticise their own decisions is fine by me. The influence of marketing is powerful and the less spoken on matter of projecting an ethos to mask wanting to align with a particular narrative or brand via ideology is revealing as to the intoxicating influence of corporate shill and marketing.
No doubt - that there's a big difference between supporting the little guy vs supporting the conglomerate 😀
One supports "local economy" FIVE times more by choosing it over corporations
There is even more truth to that when you consider most big name models were designed more than 50 years ago. Supporting designers really should come down to microbrands.
I’ve got a San Martin BB58 homage in my wrist right now. I’ve really been enjoying it, while also understanding full well what it is and what it isn’t.
I grew to love the BB designs over the past year and I am saving up for one… but with my current income it will take me a few years to be able to afford the real thing! In the mean time, I am happy with what I’ve got.
I do want to pay more for the superior movements. I find value in the craftsmanship and quality of the original. But I’m limited by what I can afford right now, so I am happy to have an affordable option in the mean time.
And that is the winning comment. Bravo. Kudos to you and enjoy these watches for what they are. Eventually you might be fortunate enough to enjoy the real one. I am rooting for you!!
As an owner of a san Martin BB pro homage i will also add, that it is an effective way to get into GMT watches. And it keeps time better than an orient or Seiko at the same price. And most of the time when I wear my BB homage I just enjoy the fact that this watch gets things done.
Just don’t expect too much “craftsmanship and quality” from the original. I sometimes buy San Martin homages to “test drive” the originals before getting them and, aside from the movement, I’ve never found big differences in quality and finish.
Literally my only quibble with that is not going all the way with it. Like, if you don't care about the movement, then don't care about the movement, you know? Save your money and get a quartz. ESPECIALLY if it's a closed case back. You can get a smooooth sweep in a high beat quartz movement nowadays if that's a problem, but if you're buying a crap movement anyway, why care. A quartz will be more accurate, and infinitely less likely to break. Insisting on a mechanical/automatic movement when you have to say 'the movement isn't great but I don't care about the movement' makes no sense. Save your money. Like, they should be offering a quartz version of every one of their watches. There are cheap movements that are super cool looking. But if it isn't one of those cool looking ones, I don't understand why you'd bother, you know?
Excellent sentiment 😀
Interesting topic and video. Would like to add 2 things. 1) San Martin is not a watch “factory”. They assemble watches with parts made from other sub-suppliers. Yes, they spec many of the items to their requirements, but they just assembly the watches. 2) An homage doesn’t needs to be 100% alike the “original” to be a great homage. That’s actually the point, it’s supposed to take inspiration from the original and create their version of it. So when so many do not like the look of the helium escape valve, it’s fine to remove it. Same with rivets on the bracelet. Also it’s fine to use generic clasp. It’s suppose to be a homage and not a replica bar the brand name.
💯. To make it clear: when you buy a San Martin, you buy parts which cost SIX TIMES less + no service. They buy parts from elsewhere, put them together, and call it San Martin.
Most watch brands buy a lot of parts from other suppliers and assemble them. This also goes for high end swiss brands. Most of them dont make their own dials, hairsprings, jewels, screws, crystals etc.
Even Rolex outsources some parts.
I think Seiko is the brand that makes the most parts themselves.
As usual you open the window of the stuffy room that is inhabited by the majority of TH-cam watch reviewers.
Your videos are so impartial and balanced and above all intuitive. Its like having a lecture in business studies ( but way more entertaining)
They currency that you are dealing with here is trust. Youvare earning it by the bucket load.
Appreciated. I'm trying my best here... 😀😀
The most thoughtful critique of homage watches I have ever come across.
I own both San Martins and Swiss watches, including a 214270 Rolex Explorer.
The San Martins are great pieces for the money, but somehow feel unfinished. And, only one of my San Martins is a genuine homage, the other two being arguably more original in design.
It’s clear to me now that that sense of being unfinished is due to the lack of nuances that you covered in this video.
Bravo!
Thanks a ton 😀
I own Omega, Breitling, DOXA, Christopher Ward and others at various price points. The bronze San Martin homage of the Captain Willard I own was cheap and looks fantastic. Would I buy a Captain WIllard at the current price of approx. £1000? Not a chance. So, the San Martin scratches an itch and I enjoy wearing it. I feel very differently, however, about my Omega Seamaster, Breitling Colt Chrono and DOXA Sub 300. These watches have heritage and lots that the homages simply don't and it's not even necessarily anything tangible. There's plenty of room for both homage and original watches. I love both for lots of completely polarised reasons. Thanks for another fantastic video.
Christopher Ward? LOL
@@thetruthhurts7500dang you’re such a letdown man 🤣
Fully agree, I mentioned this before, if they were identical, rolex would still sell as they have history, infact rolex would sell more as there are more reps out there, so they become even more special to have the real deal.
Would not buy a Seiko because of ‘lack of heritage’ but happy to spend x3 for Doxa and own a CW? loughable comment
And by the way you can buy a Willard for a lot less that £1000
This is the best watch video ever posted to TH-cam. As a Rolex, Omega, Seiko, Citizen and Phoibos owner, I can say you nailed it!
Baltany does unique homages and does a good job of using the right movement for the watch.
Baltany is an awesome brand. And it's probably the only chinese watch company whose name I don't really mind.
True … bought the „1921“ recently… brilliant executed, for a fraction of the VC price, ✌️
@@SunsetSheen Right, 90% of these need rebranding, Imagine pulling up anywhere in a “Gigididi” 😂
Mike, first off, I appreciate your commentaries, opinions, and knowledge on horology, that's in addition to the fun European accent for me (maybe you find the US accent interesting as well). I find your comments generally very thoughtful, and I can see you try to be balanced (but I subscribe to the general notion that no one is completely unbiased.) I am Chinese, and I did NOT know enough of San Martin to realize its Chinese origin. Your video here certainly give me pause. So, beyond the positive aspect of educating the consumer, I will offer (without any solicitation on anyone's part) two points on made in China, and in particular to homage watches. 1) China is a developing country, and while it might be advanced in certain areas, it is a developing country. Just look at its per capita income and the country-side of China. There is quite a difference between US countryside vs. Chinese countryside. China is developing, and my point is simply that for a developing country, the emphasis is NOT the finer things of life. I am Chinese raised in HK, so I cannot completely speak for my ancestral countrymen, but from what I can see, the quintessential Chinese in the mainland cares for the essential. You can present them with the finer things of life, but they do NOT really appreciate them because it is about making money or survival, or making the first very bucket of gold (pardon the generalization, there is always the exceptions.) There is A LOT of dignity for people crossing the street in the US, but there is no such dignity thing in China. Finer things of life is a by-product of fulfilling the basics and more, so finer watches or dignity (a nebulous concept) are not that important to the general public (again excluding the richer folks.) I, as their fellow countrymen, will NOT blame them. I would be the same have I stayed in China. Yes, you certainly touch on that, and I am reinforcing your notion from the angle of a country development cycle. If you look at US at the wild wild West era, you will see a lot of crude things going on as well. 2) This is the Internet age, where information is proliferated. It is in Rolex, Omega obligation to give the general public a proper education of why they are better, in addition to their heritage and history, etc. Why obligation - because that's respecting their customers, and not believe me Rolex and pay the premium. (NOTE: I have NEVER been inside a Rolex store, may be that's where you get the education, so I just shoot myself in the foot here. I am aware of that possibility) Nonetheless, we all comparison shop or better yet value shop. I DO NOT mind paying a bundle more if I know there is all these under finer things going on. However, are these finer things (etching or heat-treated color, etc) are truly better and worth that much extra bundle, it is arguable and it is up to the consumer value perspective. You may have touched upon that ... that there is a component (emotional?) that cannot be easily quantified, which again is up to the individual. Both Rolex and San Martin need to educate their intended market (which your video accomplishes on Rolex's behalf,) but for me, I can pay a bundle for the finer things that you San Martin may not know or appreciate, so education is an aspect that need to be done. You have pulled your share of the load.
However, the sky is not the limit for the premium. The finer thing premium curve has a diminishing rate of return beyond a certain point, and this point is different for different individual for a variety of reasons. Rolex will always has its market, but the good microbrands are capitalizing on this premium curve that give its consumers the many finer points with reasonable value. Again, just reiterating a point that you certainly have alluded in your other videos. Your value-related videos are very insightful and helpful, for whatever it is worth to tell you at this point ... cheers.
I have zero issue with homages. I think in many places it's quite frankly crazy to be wearing five figures on your wrist. In those instances a homage makes total and complete sense to me. Nevermind additional uses like figuring out what you like, getting into the watch game, etc.
Nobody care if you have any "issues" with homage watches because nobody cares about you period. That's the whole point. You are meaningless and so is your watch choice.
I am ok walking around with a $200 watch on my wrist.
I would be too nervous with $20K sparkling from my wrist.
Would only take one wrong person to notice. Wear the homage & lock the Rolex in a safe.
I'll be honest, I HAVE the money to buy an Omega or a Rolex (if Rolex were available at retail) but I CANNOT justify spending that money on a watch. I have other, much higher priorities like a wife who doesn't work, a son with special needs, a mortgage that I dream of paying off early, putting petrol in my car, putting money into my retirement fund etc - they will always come before an expensive watch.
In other words, while I have the money, I do NOT have so much that $10k, $15k or $20k is an insignificant amount to me. Even nice Seiko's cost thousands these days! Wearing a San Martin lets me enjoy the look and feel of a watch I love, without feeling like I'm trying to deceive anyone and without neglecting much more important priorities.
One day I will probably purchase an expensive Swiss watch but that day is still some way off.
Fantastic video mate, I enjoyed it immensely and I appreciate you being so fair. Well done.
I am sorry my friend but if you have a mortgage then you don’t have the money for a Rolex
Rolex are available at retail..they are just not available to you...Which is exactly the reason I will always buy Rolex. They keep the riff raff from buying retail. Learn the game son...
Really? People that have mortgages don't own Rolex watches? Are you sure about that?
@@thetruthhurts7500Sure. Except I don't believe you buy Rolex watches.
Well said
San Martin have been making original design lately and they're good. The finishing on their watches are better than most "swiss" brands and even better than seikos
grateful！😊
Seikos are garbage
True to some extent
I have a Hruodland homage of the IWC big pilot turbine from 2008. It’s almost a direct copy from the front but it’s a really interesting case of a homage because the original watch is nearly unobtainable, only 11 were produced a decade and a half ago and really expensive. But that Hruodland is actually one of my favorite watches in my collection because of how unique it is and how well it is finished.
Great vid, small correction tho: 316L steel is a bit harder than 904L steel. I think luxury brands sacrifice some hardness in favor of corrosion resistance. In time, the steel in a Rolex will look better, beyond its give finishing and normal wear and tear.
I agree with what you say. I've bought myself a Pagani Design homage to the legendary "Steve McQueen" Explorer II, and though it looks good, is hard to coneect emotionally with it.
I’ve been into horology TH-cam videos for as long as I can remember, but your wine analogy really hit differently-it’s stuck with me like no other. Congratulations on the channel!
Thanks for watching 😀😀
I have only one San Martin, their interpretation of the Tudor Ranger.
For me it’s a weird situation, this specific watch is not a homage, as the San Martin has so many differences from the Tudor: is 36mm, has applied indices, shows a different case structure and even uses different polishing techniques.
In my opinion this one is an entirely different watch from the Tudor, with just what I would like from the Ranger, but that Tudor doesn’t get to produce.
Watches like this one, for me, are an improvement to the original watch and not a homage, and if they continue delivering as well as they do with this one, I would keep buying them.
A homage watch does not mean it should be a 1:1 copy. It’s a watch that takes inspiration from the original and creates a version from it. So the SM 36mm Ranger is absolutely a homage watch, in the best way. It’s a good example of what a homage watch really is. 🙏
Just wait a decade or two until the Chinese really hit the mark with in-house movements. Assuming build quality and finishing continues to advance, too. We saw the Japanese revolution of the late 60s and 70s with the coming of quartz, and we may perhaps be on the verge of a new revolution. This time centered on Chinese advances sufficient to challenge Swiss luxury brands. True Swiss luxury brands, not just entry and mid-level. Only time will tell. No pun intended. I, for one, welcome that challenge. It can only benefit us as owners and enthusiasts.
Grand Seiko have proven that a Japanese watch company can be every bit as good as most Swiss watchmakers if not better than most.
There is no reason that a Chinese watchmaker cannot do the same thing fairly quickly if they had the desire to enter the luxury scene.
Nailed it on all accounts. As a pleb who just bought a Pagani "Airking" (V2) because I cannot afford the real thing, I have a fair amount of hesitation wearing it. Your comments describe my misgivings, motivations, and justifications for spending less than $50 USD on it with surgical precision.
Love watching your channel...such a soothing voice describing my passion for watches...funny how youtube brings out the best in normal everyday people, great stuff👍👍😁😁
Thanks for watching!😀
A friend of mine is a watchmaker in an authorized warrant service shop. His shop is authorized to provide warrant services on behalf of Richemont and Audemars Piguet. (Actually, they are the only one in Brazil).
He told me San Martin provides an excellent cost-benefit. In the middle range, I own Tag Heuer, Seiko, Hamilton. I would like to purchase a Panerai. But those crazy bastards raise their prices at each 3 months. It is getting impossible. Experts say that US and China are still buying a lot of their production yet. The last ten years were crazy for the watch industry.
Thanks for sharing - Interesting insights 😀
You consistently nail it on every hot watch topic. I've owned Steinhart homages and it never feels quite right. Even understanding the financial and business side of things, it always just feels like "you couldn't afford the real thing." I've gotten into countless arguments with friends trying to justify the cost of a luxury watch. The difference is really in how we view watches - a simple tool that tells time and doubles as a fashion accessory, or a piece of mechanical and functional art. I'd rather lust over watches I can't afford while owning original designs within my budget, than "fake it till I make it." It feels that much more rewarding when you can finally afford that grail.
Thanks 😃
In my case, I have a Steinhart Ocean One Military because I love the look of the Rolex Milsub but realistically know I'll never find an authentic Milsub (even many authentic Milsubs were modified once out of service), and that isn't a design that Rolex will bring back. I'd love to get a Tudor Black Bay 58 some day, and that watch is attainable so I'm not interested in any Tudor homages.
I think the thing we need to remember here is that every watch enthusiast is at a different point in their watch collecting.
Homage brands allow a first-timer access to designs and ideas that would normally take years to achieve. How are you supposed to know what you like or what your style is without trying on or buying an homage?
If the barrier for entry to “good design” and “quality” is several thousand dollars, then watch making and the entire industry is destined to fail.
Homage brands are the lifeblood of the industry. They drive people into the watch world and then, maybe not now but eventually, those people will stick around long enough to spend serious money on a very serious and original watch.
Or not. But either way, homage brands are good for the hobby.
Case in point:
I thought I was a dive watch guy. Had only homage watches or original design dive watches for the bulk of my collection. I bought the Pagani Design Speedmaster Homage for like $65. And suddenly it hit me; I’m a Chrono guy. I freaking love a Chronograph. On paper, it wasn’t for me. But in the metal, on the wrist, wearing it day in and day out I realized what it was all about.
So I passed that watch along and bought a Speedmaster. You could have given me 100 years of watch collecting, and I never would have bought a Speedy. But getting to try one out for a low cost of entry in an homage immediately convinced me to buy the real thing. Because I finally got it and understood what it would feel like to have one without having to drop $5,000 on a watch I wasn’t sure I would love.
@@douglascheesman Great point!
This, it is how i got into watches, i didn't want to spend 500 bucks on a Seiko or something else. Ended up with a Speedy chrono mechaquartz from pegani design for ~130.
It is a great way to develop your tastes in watches, i didn't know if i would enjoy a hand-wind movement as winding it everyday could be a chore. So bought a Hroudland and loved it, the clicking of the mech when you turn it is a really nice feeling. Also realised i didn't enjoy integrated bracelets/butterfly clasps.
You get ideas of what fits you, what doesn't without spending a lot of money, while still getting decent movements that will last.
@@TheNoe123212321 Very true.
For me I believe homage and replica brands have a place and I tend to believe that it's not just a "parasitic" relationship but actually a "symbiotic" relationship.
Homages / Replicas cannot exist without the original. There has to be something desirable that not everyone can attain.
But on the other hand. The existence of the replica validates the desirability of the original. 😀
One of the best videos on the subject. When it comes to "how much is too much" for Swiss watches I always circle back to my 1970s comparison. In 1971 the Submariner retail price in the US was $200 and the cheapest car on the American market, the VW Beetle, was priced at ~$1800. So a little bit more than 1/10 of the cheapest car would get you a Rolex Submariner.
Diving watches back then were rare and expensive not many watch manufacturers offered one. Today the cheapest cars in the US (Kia Rio, Chevrolet Spark, etc..) are priced at around $15K more or less where a Submariner is priced at ten grand and you can buy a 200M diver watch for $50-60 pretty much anywhere. People could say "well today's Submariner is much better than 1971 Submariner", very true but today's entry level car are on an entirely different level better than a 1971 VW Beetle. Adjusted for inflation, a Submariner today it should cost around $1200-1500 and at that price level is fully justified (heritage, original design, Swiss costs, R&D expenses, etc...) over a $200 high quality homage but current prices are simply nonsensical. This is my opinion. Congratulation again for the great content!!
Interesting Chanel! I'm 75 years old had over 18 watches mostly Swiss brands from Rolex to Maurice Laxcrois, Junghans, Citizen and Seiko Dive watches(I was a Dive Instructor) and my experience they all break after a while and need service if you can obtain the spare parts? Eventually, I gave most away to my Family including my wife some were Gold watches. Now at my age, I want convenience and own a G-shock and a Fossil Pathfinder ( not the best brand )booth Eco-solar drive a point that was important to me and affordable and for the next 10 years no hassle. I did the rabbit hole it was fun for a while.
Thanks for stopping by 😃😃
Thank you for the fair, even-handed, and thoughtful discussion. I own quite a few homages and, so far, only 1 Swiss watch. I do miss some of the finer points, the original in-house movements with unique features such as complications and long power reserves, etc. I don't even really compare San Martin et al with the luxury Swiss brands at their stratospheric price ranges. What they are most likely to displace in my collection are the brands like Seiko, which deliver poor materials and poor quality in the same price range.
Thanks for sharing 😀
Thanks Mike! I think I couldn't stand the look of it on my wrist but the balanced way you presented the topic was really intriguing
Fair enough - and thanks 😀
Wow! This is by far the most comprehensive and well articulated explanation of the reality and contrast between the Chinese homage watch industry vs original brand watch manufacturers. Absolutely phenomenal presentation. Kudos Mike.
I own both. A few high end Swiss Made luxury watches which have great significance to me, and i also own lots of Chinese homages, with San Martin, Proxima, and Seestern being my favorites. I also own lots of microbrands and mid range name brands such as Seiko, Casio, Bulova, Citizen, etc.
I love watches and appreciate it them all for what each offers.
At any rate, i just discovered your channel Mike, and have subscribed. Looking forward to many more of your videos.
Thanks you and regards.
Thanks 😃
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch👍🙌
Indeed Mike, once again you get to the crux of the matter succinctly. Lots of food for thought. Thank you Chris
I appreciate this video; especially your closing comments. Because I’m that guy who probably could spend a little more on a watch if I really wanted to. But man do these microbrands provide value for money! The thrifty side of me finds that hard to resist. Because the truth is, I’m also that guy who doesn’t care what people think about what I’m wearing as long as i get that feeling when I put it on my wrist. I’ve owned a Rolex Sub and ended up selling it after a year and only wearing it a few times. And I still own a Seamaster, a Raymond Weil, and a few others brands. But have transitioned to the microbrands recently because I love that feeling of wearing a watch I love and knowing I didn’t break the bank to get it. Long Live San Martin! Lone live the microbrands.
I am not interested in inflated Swiss prices, expensive marketing hype, mystical histories, expensive stores and huge profits. I want a quality watch at a fair price. Why should I care that Rolex lied about going to the top of Mount Everest?
Not so sure they lied bud😅
Sure the smiths was on his wrist but the explorer was there too
Got a GMT San Martin (no homage, own design) as a beater to take on my photo trip to Tanzania. Worked fine, looked good, no concern if it got lost or damaged.
Totally agree with you, Mike, but you put it more eloquently than I would.
Very kind of you, thanks 😀
Best point you made Mike was that Rolex isnt losing any money to folks buying a San Martin homage. I luv the look of the Kermit Submariner but wasnt going to spend $15k on one so I got the San Martin homage with the PT5000 movement. So far the 2 areas I can tell where San Martin went cheap are the quality of the screw down crown and the lack of on-the-fly micro adjustment on the clasp. Other than that I am really enjoying the looks, comfort, and accuracy of this watch. I own an Omega, a Breitling, and a few Seiko’s, but this San Martin will definitely be in my rotation. Cheers 🍻
Excellent video Mike! I was hoping you’d dive deeper into this. The stigma is so bad that some TH-camrs refrain from even acknowledging their existence 🤔.
A topic request for consideration that is sorta related: Ball Watch Company is very polarizing in the community. I’ve seen comments like “they are Chinese faking heritage” as a reason not to buy it. It makes me think about other brands like Laco where people won’t buy it due to past ties even though the people today are not the same. Yet, conversely Invicta is definitely a different direction than their legacy days. Brands and logos stir so much perception. Don’t know where I’m going with this but it does make my brain light up and I’m sure many of us would like to hear your thoughts!
Thanks for giving us your view on San Martin. They seem to be on every watch reviewers channels radar right now so there’s a lot of noise muddying our perceptions. Your videos always force me rethink about relevant points that are missed by others. Also cool mechs in the background.
Glad it was helpful 😀
Your assessment is as usual spot on. I am not a homage fan, but I see their value for new collectors or for collectors that cannot afford expensive watches. Heck, my son has one. He bought it after consulting me, and I told him that it would be a good value watch that was within his financial reach.
However, I don’t like misleading reviews that will lead newcomers to the hobby to buy watches that may disappoint them. For instance, the other day I saw a video from a TH-camr the other day showing macro shots of a Rolex GMT Master and a San Martin homage. With each shot he would repeat incessantly that the Rolex quality was bad and that the San Martin was better. It was risible to say the least. “Coincidentally”, San Martin has photos of the same TH-camr on their AliExpress shop. Also coincidentally, the said TH-camr is located in Europe, but no longer in the EU… I have no issues with someone expressing their views and reviewing watches as they see fit. What I cannot accept is paid deception disguised as unbiased review.
It is a long and rambling comment to say that I agree 100% with you.
There's a chance the San Martin's can do certain things better than Rolex puts them out. After all, Rolex makes their stuff largely in an assembly line manner.
What's risible is assuming that's not possible. China does a lot of heavy lifting for the Swiss watch industry in particular with the things the San Martins of the world are great at: bracelets, machining, etc. That alone to me makes the claims in the video you're alluding to at the very least believable.
I think this video makes a very clear case of technique vs design to juxtapose the homage vs original predicament impeccably.
Rolex owns many iconic designs that others have copied to the point that they can be comparable or in some instances better than the real thing. These are also designs Rolex is very iterative with so it's not hard to catch up and perfect copies and then catch up on the tiny increments when Rolex comes up with them. That's also the reason why Rolexes in particular are so easy for factories to produce insane copies of. That is not necessarily the case with other high-end brands because Rolex makes solid tool watches that are not technically complex to produce.
The movement is the real secret sauce. At this point cases, bracelets, dials, printing, all that stuff is easily replicable in a cheap manner and easy to improve upon from the originals.
To illustrate, an easy way to tell a fake from a real Rolex is due to how perfect the printing on the copies can be. Rolex's printing is more blotchy and usually leaves droplets along the edges of letters under the loupe. Rolex could technically make their printing to that standard but they choose not to!
Rolex is really what it is because it's a marketing powerhouse. Not necessarily because they're the absolute best watch maker on the planet and any high end collector worth their salt will absolutely agree with that.
@@lammyjammer6670 you make valid points. I’ll cite one example of that video that is deliberately misleading, the boundary between blue and red on the bezel. The claim was that the San Martin was a sharp line, whereas the Rolex was blurry. That TH-camr knows why this is the case, the Rolex bezel is supposed to be a fumee-style transition, which is harder and more expensive to make than a simple straight line. That was to me a deliberate attempt to deceive. I used to follow that channel, but that video led me to unsubscribe. I lost trust.
@@Time_Passages I usually take ILW videos with a grain of salt. Not particularly because he's a shill or anything but because his commentary in general is very biased. I don't personally feel he's 100% neutral in his point of view. It really hard to explain for me because he's not necessarily a watch snob but he does have a particular hate against Rolex. 😂
With that said, unless you're comparing 1:1 copies you can't really compare design elements. Homage watches purposely have to differ from originals in obvious ways that extend past the logo being different. The only merit between a comparison like the one he made is in technical execution of certain elements which yes, the SM did score points over the Rolex on some of those.
But as far as I know, San Martin does not intend to make watches 1:1 comparable to the real thing. They purposely change small things here and there. Could they make a solid clone if they wanted to? They probably could. Technically they are definitely capable.
@@lammyjammer6670 good points. I agree they probably have the capability to make a super clone.
I know one brand they make homages in a great way. Seiko. If only the more affordable Seiko had aligned bezels and sapphire crystal. SM for sure makes a better Seiko than Seiko itself.
@@Time_Passages Their 62MAS homage is *chefs kiss*. I absolutely love mine 😂
Your basic take, often, is a humanistic one: buy what you like and spend what you feel you can afford. I agree with that, wholeheartedly. SM and other Chinese brands offer watch enthusiasts an opportunity to acquire attractive watches that generally work well. I can buy a Subaru SUV that has a decent design or a Porsche SUV that has higher quality components, goes faster and costs more to buy AND to own. Not exactly the same metaphor as the Picasso print. I just bought a Baltany Homage to a Hamilton military watch. $135 vs. $600. I could have afforded the Hamilton, but the Baltany was not only cheaper - in my opinion, it was actually better in some ways. But that's just an anomaly; most SM homages are many thousands of dollars cheaper than their iconic inspirations and I would never spend that kind of money on a watch, but I'm happy to spend $200 on a SM homage that looks great - works well and if someone rips it off my wrist, I won't be devastated. I totally agree it would be lovely to support designers and engineers if I could but my guess is I'll only do that for a Formex or a Henry Archer or a Farer (and the like) - where the balance of creativity and originality and design doesn't come at Rolex or Omega prices. No matter what, I truly appreciate your thoughts and presentation.
Thanks - and thanks for sharing 😀
Every time I get wrapped around the axel on watches (especially reading forums), I come watch one of your videos and appreciate the commons sense. Keep keepin' on, man.
will try 😀😀😀
I own the BB pro and I own the San Martin homage of it as a beater there is no comparison the Tudor is miles ahead in quality , fit and finish and of course the movement but I do see San Martin as a gateway for people to try the homage whilst deciding if they want the real thing.
I would venture to guess that vast majority of buyers are not N Americans nor Western Europeans.
They may never be able to afford a Tudor, et al.
I actually have money for the BB pro, and almost went and bought it. But the dimensions just arent right for me. The San Martin BB pro homage has the slimmer, more elegant dimensions I would expect from Tudor. But Tudor is hands down better quality, its also about 30 times as expensive
@@simonrodriguez7204 the fact that you have the money for it means that you’re wise with your money.
Only you can and should define your happiness.
Enjoy whichever guilt free:)
@@KC-bv9kf Thanks man. Cheers :)
Thanks for sharing your personal experience of the quality differences 😀
This is an amazing conversation. I do own a San Martin, and I appreciate it for what it is. I also own Omega SM300, PO600, Speedy Professional, Seamaster Railmaster, and a DateJust. Your conversation on the engineering and design prompted me to put on a Citizen Eco Drive Racer Chrono which I love. It's an awesome watch - original design, chrono function, date, alarm, decent bracelet, and solar power. Cheap to most watch snobs, but it's a watch that is completely original and could do whatever I asked it to do at a reasonable price with beautiful panda style. Bonus - 200m WR.
I'm not against a homage at all as long as it's not pretending to be more. I'd rather someone wear that than an Apple Watch, but you reminded me that affordability and originality can live together.
Excellent video once again. I couldn't agree more. As value for money is very close to the top of my priority list, I have no problem buying a San Martin. I'm just waiting for them to release one of their 'original design' (idk if it actually is or not) watches that really appeal to me. The SN0129 was very close... but not quite.
Well, that was the one mostly shown in the video, ironically an original on display when Mike was just talking about homages. Anyway,, I own the original designs SN0026 and SN0033, both very nice watches. The first release of their Jianghun subrand, the "war drum", was a big miss though.
@@balthazarbeutelwolf9097 The next model will be coming soon😉
@@JianghunWatch I hope the new one is better. SM have shown they can do original designs well now, after a few false starts.
There's a reason I chose the year of the dragon watch - because it's original and I thought it looked quite cool. Not my "style" but I thought it was quite interesting 😀
Outstanding analysis and perspective. I do find it interesting that many humans get so wrapped up in what others think or perceive what they think others think re: watches. Many mistakenly put way too much emphasis and credence around other’s opinions and judgments vs. Buying what they like. I have plenty of money to buy most luxury watches, but I am not willing to pay for the added expense. Paying way more to “flex” seems so externally focused to me.
San martin is right to focus on the things people caarw about. The movement is not one of them. Watches are jewlery. They are fashion items whether we admit it or not. No one needs high accuracy in a mechanical watch. In house movements are a scam to justify more money. Also the law of diminishing returns. Its just not worth paying for features you cant even see. High end luxury watches are more anout the status symbol that yhe watch itself. If you remove the logo from a steel Sub how much would you pay? Its a boring old fashioned design. Id pay 2000 tops.
Spot on. I buy a watch if I like the design and execution (up to a limit of 12 in my watch box). A few San Martins for sure. I'll wear my token good watch for events where I know there's snobbery. I used to have nothing but Rolex, Omega, Breitling, Tudor, JLC and TAG, but now I just have one Tudor as my token good watch as I've realised the whole thing watch thing is just a big old wank, plus I'd rather have nVIDIA shares that a piece of metal I'm bored with. I mostly have microbrands though - Henry Archer, Christopher Ward (microbrand-ish but not really but yeah whatever), and some others, and half the time I don't even set the watch unless I"m bored during the day. It's mostly male jewellery.
Rolex Sub without logo is almost indistinguishable from SanMartin Sub Logoless version
You’re right on the fact that most people don’t care about the movement. Because wether it’s a high end Rolex movement (+/-2s a day) or a NH35 (+/-40s a day), if I really care about the accuracy of time I’ll just use my smartphone…
Absolutely a pleasure to watch your videos, share your experience and the tone of your voice makes them great to listen !
thanks 😀
Fair and balanced as always. Thank you
Always 😀
I love the way you make me think beyond a review. Why do I spend money on relatively cheap mechanical watches ? Maybe it's the reason I also love vinyl. Single malt. Real leather shoes. I scrape by with what I earn,but I buy what I can afford when I can. There is something about paying attention to how you choose items. Take care of it (maintenance if you will). The emotion of using it, and reading/listening to other like minded people , as their preferences. Good work !
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts 😀
There is a fundamental material cost - and the homage brands demonstrate that the material cost is low. You then have to look at what you are buying in to beyond the purely material - and this is where the watch industry excels at selling dreams/lies (however you choose to interpret it). One particular point raised in the video is the issue of original design and cost - yet no one can point to the industry and say that there has been marked innovation of any real kind. Thus, by this logic, Tudor is offering no more than subtle reflections on Rolex (homage) whilst allowing Rolex to push the price up to maintain an 'exclusive brand' status. The idea that Rolex / Tudor boardrooms are not involved in discussing such issues merely reinforces the point that 'smoke and mirrors' exist and operate - and likely across the industry. In a recent video a well known watch commentator opined that the reduction in sales in mechanical watches could only be tackled by raising the prices on existing watches in order to make as much money as possible from any existing sales.
A better example of brand / market suicide is hard to think of - the quartz crisis was a long time ago and there is only so much 'myth' you can pump in to an (already) mythologicaly inflated market.
Rob --
i concur on your observations for the firms, but have a slightly different view from the consumer end. My answer to "when buying a mechnical watch today, what -- exactly -- are consumers paying for?" is nothing other than "a piece of art on the wrist". Sure they have some utility, but vastly less than easily obtainable via quartz or -- Gawd help us -- smart watches for more modest expenditure.
But that is okay. What use are cuff links or ties? Have you priced a silk tie lately?
On my wrist at the moment is a SM homage to a 1950s brand R GMT Master model, with the GMT bezel set to Eastern Europe. "Yes" i can see both my time and those of a client i have at a glance. But there dozens of Casio or Citizen models that will do the same more accurately for less than the $350 i paid. For me mainly it is lovely to look at. For others, the same is true but they will pay factors of 30+ to have "Brand R" on the dial. Then there was Sam Walton, who wore a brand R watch . . . which he concealed with a Timex band . . .
Getting back to your closing observation: what controls the ability of luxury manufacturers to raise prices? The answer is customer demand resistance ("elasticity"), and nothing contributes to that more than the availability of close substitutes . . . like SM . . . So even if you buy brand R, you should be thankful for the homage marketplace. Something tells me that, as a group, they don't recognize that, but Sam Walton would have.
-- gary
Excellent balanced overview delivered in a clear and entertaining manner with a clear depth of understanding. Thanking you for that sir.
you are very welcome. Thanks for watching 😃
For the reasons you mentioned, I've stopped buying homages. I'd rather support a microbrand. The replica/homage debate will never go away. For some buying a homage is acceptable, for others it is tantamount to supporting fakes or unauthorized copies. Great video as always!
Couldn’t agree more. So many good an honest, unique and original designs to choose from.
Agree. I have a Helm Komodo that I really like and I have no issues with affordable watches from Orient, Seiko or Citizen. I rather have one of those than a "clonage" that will remind me every time I see it that I don't have the real deal.
Great review and perspective. I am one those who always swore by swiss brands and have some swiss pieces from omega to longines to tissot but have grown to enjoy and like San Martin. For the price and finish, that's what you are going for, it can't be beat and may have a nh34 or nh35 movement but its reliable and less expensive to maintain if anything does go wrong. I get a scratch or ding on it, not too annoyed with it, whereas when i do with my longines or omega I sort of do given what I paid for it. To each its own and 100% true, I concur "buy what you like/love", its going on your wrist so should be proud to wear it and not what the watch herd says you should wear. As watch collectors, pieces come and go as your journey continues and watch tastes change over time. For myself, even every few years. Keep up the great work. Cheers!
Never thought of the fashion runway analogy, but then again, I don’t dress so guud.
I am a style icon, don't ya know? 😂😂
I'm watching this video for the 3rd time, coming back to it every couple of weeks
It really gives me an understanding of what the Chinese brands offer and don't offer
Great video and interesting topic. Something I would like to add to the conversation is “why”. When the watch is bought out of genuine interest or appreciation for it - I agree 100% - brand is almost exclusively a marketing. San Martin, Pagani, Steinhart - if you like the watch and it’s in your budget go for it.
Now that said I feel many are buying homage watches to dress up as a wealthy and successful person. When someone says he got a Submariner homage because he loves the design but he can’t afford or has no access the original, my immediate thought is “really? out of thousands of new dive watches released every year the Sub is the most interesting and intriguing design?” I’m afraid the most common reason to buy homage is not a legitimate love for said watch or horology in general.
And to be fair to homage buyers, people who go into debt to buy an original piece are guilty of the same sin. Pretending to be someone who they aren’t.
Know it’s a bit harsh, but I feel this is the ugly truth.
Thanks.
Good points. I do think there is something about the power of icons. the more I look at a Submariner vs eg. a Panerai, the Submariner is quintissentially uninteresting. It's so very simple. So "interesting design", I'd say no from a "quirks" perspective. But from a refinement perspective, then maybe. Design is hard to quantify - but I see your point 😀
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch So true, but homages in most cases lack the refinement one might expect from the original. Agree that Rolex’s designs may be considered timeless by many, hence I do not completely dismiss homage buyers. You often use an automotive examples - interestingly there are Chinese and Indian “homages” of Jeeps and Land Rovers, I completely understand why people would want to buy them (price), but quality trade offs are quite obvious. Another example are Kia and Hyundai - cheap cars and low quality copies of Japanese models in the 80s and 90s, huge quality jump in early 2000s and here we are - Korean cars are not cheap anymore.
I feel we are not disagreeing, just saying the same thing with different words :). I’ll keep quiet now.😀 Take care
I have sprung for original, expensive watches, so there are times it feels worth it. I also own homages when it hasn't felt worth it, but I always remember that the homage would be nothing without the original design.
No one would want an homage if it didn't echo the real thing in some way.
Interesting to me are the well made affordable microbrands, no need to spend five or twenty five grand or more, you're personally supporting an original creator, and worth the money, even when a thousand dollars.
Subscribed.
GREAT CONTENT!
tbh I think, and as Chinese I do have an instinct, that the homage watch brands are in one way or another affiliated with those rep factories
It's not unlikely. I've read that there are a lot of interwoven connections in the industry in china (much like it is in Switzerland as well) 😀
Mike, Once again, a great perspective on the value of both ends of the spectrum. Much appreciated. All of the inuendos you mentioned are true - and I, like you, appreciate the "masters" who actually dreamed up what finally becomes a watch on your wrist. You, almost offhandedly, mentioned that a watch is really not a necessity (paraphrased, of course) in today's age. Which brings me to another argument you made in a previous video. You mentioned that the price is relevant to who is actually putting out the money. For a millionaire, a Rolex is a nice daily wear watch. For "Joe 6-pack," a Rolex is an Abhorrent amount to pay for a watch, but a San Martin fits the budget and makes sense. My collection is nothing in comparison to yours (I'm guessing - you don't parade your collection) with the high-dollar watch at $1,300, but I enjoy what is on my wrist for more emotional reasons - not current market value. Would I have a Rolex if money was no object - absolutely. But money is an object, and I remain in a "state of peace" where I am. So, I enjoy the background and ingenuity of Rolex (and other top brands), but I am happy when I look at my wrist and see the second hand sweeping softly. Time marches on, regardless of what I am wearing.
I'd still like to know what your impression of the Ginault "Silent Service" is.................
Go shit in your hat.
Sir, an excellent breakdown. May I bring your attention to Nomdic in Belfast Northern Ireland 🇬🇧. They sell rebranded San Martin with an upgraded case and Selita Movement and charge £1000 for the privilege. They make it seem that the watch is built in Belfast. A total farce and an expensive one to boot.
Salutation’s from Belfast Northern Ireland 🇬🇧
Did you conduct original research on 904L steel? A machinist informed that it is no more costly to manufacture than 316, and can use the same tooling on it. It is also softer than 316L afaik
From a hardness pespective (brinell / rockwell / whichever) there is little that differentiates them but yes, technically from a pure hardness perspectice 904l is maybe 1% softer.
To be clear I never stated that 904L was harder than 316L. I stated it was harder to machine.
From a machining perspective 904l is harder to machine and wears down machine bits faster. This is because there’s more chromium in the alloy (4-6% more) affecting the thermal condictivity.
Thermal conductivity is low(er). The lower the thermal conductivity of the material being processed, the less heat carried away by the chip and the workpiece, and the more heat accumulated on the tool, making the tools wear more easily.
Even though 904 can be called “superior”, if 316 steel is already used for marine applications I wouldn’t worry :)
@MegaThucydudes Good point, plus 904l also is not surgical quality stainless steel. 316l is surgical quality stainless steel and is used in biomedical applications. I know people who have skin issues with wearing watches that are not 316l and titanium.
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch Regarding 904L's increased difficulty to machine, is it a significant or negligible increase? I was led to believe it is a negligible difference between 316 and 904 in terms of machining costs, but I don't claim expertise in the subject.
I think we'd all be on sound footing if we hold that the main reasons for Rolex switching to 904L is increased corrosion resistance (historical reason, and only applicable to the dive models), and the fact that 904L polishes to greater jewellery SHINE. Any additional superlatives that Rolex's marketing tries to pin on its steel should be taken with a grain of salt
Amazing presentation again. No other channel explains the intricacies of the watch business like this. Just a pleasure to listen to. Keep up this excellent work.
Much appreciated! 😃
San Marin often improves on the original and put their own twist to the original design. Like reducing the thickness of the bb pro homage and putting a while dial in which Tudor doesn’t produce. Tudor was lazy for not trying to make a slimmer version of their gmt movement for smaller models.
*San Martin
This is your first video I've ever watched. I enjoyed hearing your thoughts on the topic and will subscribe. Cheers to you, friend.
Thanks and welcome aboard 😀
I have really gone back and forth with this question. Can I afford a Rolex or an Omega? No. Do I want a San Martin homage of those? Possibly. But will I be happy knowing I am wearing something that is trying to be something else that I cannot have? Probably not.
You can afford a rolex I believe in you
My point exactly.
You summed it up.
Yeah. It feels… dishonest.
E se em vez de relógios fosse uma garota? Uma garota quase idêntica aquela atriz famosa dos seus sonhos. Você não a namoraria porque ela não é a atriz original ? Hugs 😂
Thanks for video because I found it a very valuable and insightful assessment and contrast of the subtle nuances between homages and the name brand originals. God bless.
Cheers 😀
If nobody bought a Rolex just to show off how rich they are, then Rolex's would cost 1/10 of what they cost today. Like they did 30-40 years ago. Fact.
Cry about homages if you want, but a rational person with no need to show of their wealth, who only cared about bang for the buck, would never buy a Swiss luxury watch. The entire business is based on rich people bragging with their wealth. The actual watch enthusiasts are a tiny minority.
This is true. In the 1960s, a Rolex Explorer could be had for ~$150 which would equate to ~$1700 in today's money. If you can even buy one today, it is >$7000. Not quite 10X more, but quite a bit inflated from what these watches sold for in the 60s and 70s. Back then, Rolex was an expensive but high quality tool watch, not a luxury status product.
In 1980 the Rolex Sub Pepsi Bezel was $650 in my US military exchange store and there was no limit on availability. A Seiko diver was $150. I bought the Seiko - worked without service for over 25 years including SCUBA diving.
I totally agree with you. Good explanation. Forget the wine thing.
True that
Oh but, we need the perfect ratio of the cyclops magnifier... lol
This was a really great video. My dream/fantasy watch has always been a Rolex Submariner in Titanium. So far they haven't made it but maybe one day. Well San Martin did. Well technically it's a vintage Sea Dweller 116600 but it's close enough. It's an absolutely beautiful watch in grade 5 Titanium with a Sellita SW200 movement. This is why I love San Martin and all homage watch makers.
You can spend 10K on a luxury watch, or you can choose from any number of really cool sub 1K watches, wear that one, and invest that 10K to reasonably have 20K 10 years from now. So buying that ultra-marketed watch costs you a lot more than 10K in the long run.
Those buying the 10K watch are not people thinking about what happens to their 10K in 10 years. It is a luxury product for the wealthy. If one has to make such a cost calculation for a purchase, then in reality they probably cannot afford the watch. Luxury purchases should only be made at a level where they do not have a significant impact on ones finances.
People who have 10k plus to buy a watch have far far more in investments. If a luxury high horology piece that is in their budget brings them enjoyment, that is worth more than money
@bdegrds so true
Yes and no
For those of us who are financially challenged, your statement stands true. As for the more wealthy crowd, it's just another watch.
There are millions of people on planet of net worth above , say eur 1000k. They pay because watch is very expensive, better more expensive than neighbour's
Thanks for the Video. Looking at the last releases, San Martin seems to start to evolve a bit. Newer watches are using a Miyota 8315 instead the NH35 and they release a few own designs instead of homages.
As I say in the video - they do have more than replica designs 😀
Nice hard look at what San Martin does. Especially the video of the guys squatting to polish the cases.
I would just add two things: Steinhart has homages of discontinued watches - I own the McQueen Explorer II homage. Rolex won’t bring it back - and if they did no mortal like me would ever get a chance to buy it. And that’s the 2nd point: many of us would buy the Rolex IF we could get it at MSRP. I got the Pagani of the Rolex grail watch I’m on 3 waiting lists for.
Contrary to most people, seeing the squatters makes me want to buy the SM more.
Good video and discussion.
I like and have both.
They serve difference purposes.
My Seamaster 2254.50, explorer 2 16570 and FXD are original designs that cannot be substituted by a homage for me. I have them because they call to me
My San Martin SN0138 is a homage to a watch that kind of doesn't exist - a 37mm BB58 with a ceramic bezel. A BB58 or BB54, in their current iterations, is not on my wishlist at the moment. But I love that I get to experience how amazing a decent on-the-fly micro-adjust bracelet is (man is it good, a game-changer)
The San Martin BB Pro homage is also something I enjoy, because although I like the design, I’d never by the Tudor, because I have a polar Explorer 2.
I have zero issues with buying a SM homage of Rolex, AP, et. al. I'm not taking money from those companies because there is no universe in which I would ever BUY one of those things because of price. Hell, I can't even FIND one. Omega used to be a value proposition alternative to Rolex. Not any more. Omega decided to go head to head with the Big R. Omega is simply more available at retail. I do draw the line at Seiko/Doxa/Tissot homages. Those brand name watches are available and relatively affordable. No reason to go the homage route on a Tissot.
Great video as always Mike. I would argue some of the identity and brand value San Martin (unsure about/no experience with others but I suppose in principle applies) is that it stands for nothing but giving you specs for money. Knowing that others look down on the brand, writing them off as a cloning lab. That in itself is a statement. Nothing fancy or cutting edge in terms of finishing. Just a solid job at the basics. Would also say they have some semi original designs so dismissing them as purely homage is a bit unfair. Ultimately the world would be a very boring and sad place if they were the only game in town but I think they definitely fill a role and still make a statement about the person wearing it and their intentions as much as any other brand. Totally agree with most other points made and some of the sentiment of this comment is indeed in your video. Cheers!
Hot take but maybe copying Rolex and Tudor while you figure out how to have the best quality and finishing for the money in the entire industry, and then come out with your own original designs was a smart play
Perhaps.... 😀
I bought a homage of the Serica 5303 with a Selita movement, when Serica failed in giving a movement that works and refused to fix it. I also bought a Selita movement in a Engineer Iwc homage when I found out the price because I like the design but would feel less of an idiot with a homage with a decent movement.
Besides that I am new to collecting and sticking to Seiko LX Springdrive , Citezin promaster and Glycine
My San Martin runs on time, looks great has no Swiss crap inside, solid Japanese based technique, great watch. I do not dive, I moped. I don't like useless bling on watches.
"Swiss crap inside".....You really are a mental midget like you mother says, aren't you?
Been collecting for years , but can honestly say san martin etc are unbelievable for the money. And the biggest plus point is you dont have to worry about them. That said an original design by a top swiss maker , is a different level , and generally makes you feel special to own one . Are they worth the extra premium , which can be 20x the amount , because of the original design and marketing costs , well thats up to you as a consumer .
He just sold me a San Martin. you can romanticise all you like about rolex etc, but my money is my money. you would be crazy to buy a rolex when you can get the stylee for 200 quid
Nobody needs a Mercedes either but if it brings you joy so be it.
@@richardmorris7063the point is you don’t enjoy the Mercedes, you enjoy the Mercedes logo. That’s why you see a LOT of Mercedes base models with not much more than wheel, seats, tires and gearbox. Same goes for watches. It’s almost all about the name on the dial.
Thanks, a fair and balanced brand review, once again.
A creative!! micro brand can be the right compromise between San Martin and very high price watches. In this way, independent design can be appreciated at a moderate price.
At least that is my approach at the moment.
The question remains: what about the longtime availability of the spares for that micro-brand?
And I'm not talking about the movement itself here.
Great point 😀
Tudor is a Rolex homage, expensive one🤣
created by the same person not by China
@@johnsoradi so it’s ok as long as you are not Chinese and expensive?
@@johnsoradi homage is inspired design, Tudor is old Rolex , fancy homage with a different brand and price tag that’s it….
@@johnsoradiThat is what the Swiss made you think.
Very accurate, however leaving aside certain brands many swiss watches have the same movement that are made in mass nothing special about it anymore, but the price is still very high, in the end we pay for the "heritage", is in this thing that the chinesse people see a market oportunity. Also exists many microbrands with own designs that are very well. The main complain about watches market are the "Swiss made" legend cost a lot for a product that in many cases is not handmade anymore but the price mantains as if it was.
Why not buy Seiko, Hamilton or tissot instead
The best comment
Seiko for the win 💪💪💪
The Quartz PRX missed all the markers. Seiko prices went up and quality went down(compared to my Sarb's). And Hamilton also had is issues with movements.
Excellently interpreted the broad aspects within the market in the global watch industry.
San Martin from China is controlling the game in the micro brand baseline..
You speak very well and have pinned several key observations on how the market operates. China is becoming quite rich with their western customers. Thank you for the educational coverage in relation to all of the above.
I don’t see a reason to pay 1000s of dollars for a good watch. I like to use the watch in the ocean, at the beach or at work. I want a companion I can take everywhere and if time has come letting have its rest. With expensive watches I’d give them more attention and I don’t want that. Plus most expensive watches fulfill the purpose of flexing in general or getting attention from watch lovers - a very niche group of people.
One day you will...You just need some time to grow up.
Great video as always. Most people that buy homages (not replicas) are doing it just for fun and that they are mostly cheap, or/and as an dressing detail or kind of jewelry. Personally, I own solid & expensive brand watches which I bought and inherited, but sometimes those homages are simply more enjoyable because you are not as careful with. Parts are more easily replaceable or serviceable/changed. Cheers!
Well said! 😊
I wish I were strong-willed enough to enjoy homages. But I'm not.
Very good statement. Finally someone with a brain