How to spot great watches "for the price" at all prices
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ส.ค. 2024
- How do you know if a watch is better than others at the same price? What constitutes good value? These are my own guidelines that I follow when looking at watches and their price to quality performance.
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Drop a comment and share your thoughts. Like if you do, and subscribe if you want more. Thanks a ton.
Cheers 😀😀😀
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Hi all,
I’m doing a Q&A celebrating reaching 10.000 subs.
Thanks so much for all your support and as per tradition when hitting a milestone you can drop me some questions that I will pack into a vid.
Drop your questions here or in the post that I just put up.
Cheers to you all!!!❤❤❤
Would you consider doing a walk through of an artisan watchmaker's workshop; what tools they have, why they use those tools, what is the real investment in the low number production of an artisan watchmaker's offering, and what does the future look like for handcrafted attention to detail versus mass market offerings?
I thought of another one. The pitfalls of buying microbrands and the longevity of maintenance and repair parts.
Ex1: Buyer gets microbrand watch. 5 tears later, can't get parts from brand and/or service.
Ex2: Buyer buys Seiko. 25 years later, straps, bracelets, movements, and dials are all serviceable.
Q: Are there any indications that microbrands are more than a hit and run popup shop capitalising on a short-term trend?
I have a question for you if you would humour me, sir. Would you consider the Tissot Seastar 2000 Professional to be a good value watch? I am referring to the three-handed deep blue model with bracelet (T120.607.11.041.01). The specifications are staggering (similar to a Planet Ocean) and the price for those specifications is astonishingly low. I know that Tissot's quality is legendary so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how they've managed to do this for the price and so I respectfully request your opinion good sir. Thank you for all that you do.
I’m
This video was especially interesting to me on a philosophical level, especially when you discussed the concept of "value." ln many areas, value is an entirely philosophical concept. This is as true with great watches as it is with fine art. The, now (in)famous, Dutch forger, Han Van Meergeren was an accomplished but unappreciated artist. He was also known as a legitimate art dealer. ln the 1930s, he "found" a previously undiscovered masterpiece by Johannes Vermeer. Not long after that, he "found" several more. The art world and its "experts" were transfixed by their beauty, with many hanging in the world's greatest museums.
lt wasn't until after WWll, when some of Van Meergeren's "Vermeers" were discovered among Hermann Goering's mostly stolen loot, with Van Meergeren's name displayed as the seller, that the secret was revealed. Apparently, the deservedly infamous Goering had actually paid a fair price for some of his treasures. Only when Van Meergeren was charged with selling "Dutch national treasures" to the Nazis" and on trial for his life was the truth revealed about their provenance. Van Meergeren had "found" them on his own easel, after creating them, himself. lf not for that, those "previously undiscovered Dutch national treasures" might still be in circulation with no one any the wiser.
Much same the same can be said about fine watches or any other collectible. Their value is determined solely by what the market, or any individual is willing to pay for them.
I think you present one of the most articulate channels on TH-cam for people into horology
Not sure that's true - but very kind of you to say. 😊
This channel is becoming my go to guide for watch knowledge. Mike covers the topics in a clear and concise way, yet remains neutral by not hyping any brand nor model. As detective Sargent Friday used to say on the American TV show Dragnet: "just the facts". This video sharpens the lens on what factors make a value watch at prices ranging from $500-$10,000. Nobody on TH-cam does this better!
Thanks a ton for the feedback and praise. It's really appreciated and so glad to have you on board 😃😃😃
Honestly the most articulate watch review channel on TH-cam. Another fantastic video
Thanks a ton!
I’ve become very interested in watches and horology over the past 6-9 months and your channel is incredibly helpful. It’s like having access to dozens of Masters level classes. Thank you.
Thanks , great overview . As I've said before there was a time when cheap watches were rubbish & the only alternative to get quality was an expensive watch . Those days are gone - you don't have to spend alot of money to get a solid reliable mechanical or quarts watch these days . I have many inexpensive watches some over 20 years & still running without any service ( except a battery change on the quartz ones I do myself ) . Never buy any expensive item for the wrong reasons ie to impress someone else .
I love your videos. Not flashy or bombastic, but you are very smart, balanced, objective, and discuss all tiers reasonably without a hint of snobbery. Thank you and keep it up! 😎
I appreciate that! THANKS! 😃😃
This is the third video ive seen from this channel and i love it. Not trying to sell anything, show somethong off, just straight knowlegde dropping.
Just bought a brand new Omega Railmaster Denim Blue on the bracelet for £2,920 from Watches of Switzerland group. I mean, that will take some beating……. 😊
Very true 👍👍👍
One of my dreams. Love the Railmaster Denim- jealous!
By far, the best commentary I have come across on the topic of value for the price so far. Being a newbie collector, it offered me a nuanced perspective on the elusive concept of value. Excellent commentary.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks 😃😃😃
Back in the day in Uni I had a professor Cost Accounting. His statement was very simple: Value is what a damn fool will pay for it... I guess we are the fools....
Indeed. Just like housing pricing.
Great content as usual. I don't get why some brands are willing to slow down a watch's movement just to get bigger reserve. I'd rather have 4hz movement with 48h power reserve than a slowed down movement with bigger reserve. Precision and isochronism are likely to be affected anyway especially when power is near the tail end. Also, water resistance is just as good as the seals in the watch, which deteriorate over time. If you have 300m WR watch but don't change the seals regularly, the watch won't be water resistant anyway. So for me, free-sprung balance and some form of anti-magnetism are ranked higher on my checklist than big power reserve and high WR rating. Just my two cents, thank you for the great content!
Because modern movements are more accurate even if they have a slower movement. Also I would much rather have a longer power reserve. That means I can stop using my watch on Friday night and put it on Monday and it will still work. Letting me also use other watches more. With a regular eta, you have to use your watch on Sunday or it will run out of battery. This means you can use your watch, then another watch the next day and then you need to use the first watch else it does. Or alternatively you use a powermatic and you can use 3 other watches in 3 different days, then come back and the watch is still running
Thanks a lot 😀😀😀
This is why I bought my GS SLGH017 with 80hr PR with 5hz movement at a 30% discount at the grey market. No regrets
Good that you like a bracelet that tapers from 22mm to 20mm 👍🏻
Lower frequency means longer service intervals and less wear. A higher frequency is only one of the parameters to increase the accuracy of a watch, there are many others which is proven by the many certified chronometers from the 50s and 60s whith a frequency of only 2,5hz.
Really appreciate this video. I live primarily in the 1k USD and below market. When I think of value, I’m thinking of sapphire, movement that is relatively easily repairable (Sellita or ETA, then Miyota 9000 series), good case finishing, and usually sapphire glass. My preferences tend to lean toward tool-styled watches, but I like unique design queues or design that is borrowed from higher-end watches.
For me, brands like C. Ward, Zelos, and Direnzo offer a great proposition of design and build quality for the price. In that price point, I tend to shy away from larger brands in that price bracket because it feels like they skimp in some way that smaller brands don’t.
Another great analysis. One thing I will add. Whether we admit it or not, a lot of us do want to impress our friends, colleagues, etc. In our clothing, the cars we drive, even the watches we wear. For 99% of the folks (and not just the watch nerds who view and comment on Mike’s videos), if they ask watch you are wearing and you say “Rolex” they will be in utter awe. Whereas if you say GO, Blancpain, JLC, or even Omega, it probably won’t register with them. The crown is still king in general public perception which is one of the reasons (along with contrived supply shortages) that Rolex watches hold their value better and far longer than other brands. Just compare second hand price on a 20 year old Sub vs a 20 yo Omega diver.
Interesting perspective. That is likely also part of Rolex allure - the recognizability. The status. For sure.
Thanks for sharing 😃😃
I used to be like that but at 50 I grew out of it, my watch collection is all Seiko, Vertex, Sinn and Longines - and the only people that give a s**t are people that know.
The average person on the street has heard of Rolex but in real life situations won’t be able to tell an Omega from a Rolex
This. I'm not a watch guy but a friend of mine is. The only one I ever remember is his rolex, even though he has a lot of other comparable ones. If I was spending more than necessary to have the time on my wrist I know where I'd go.
Best watch channel on TH-cam.
Thanks Mike. I never fail to learn something from your videos, even to the extent of changing my perspective, which can generate a fresh look at my current collection as well as future considerations. Defining value is easier in the essential need category, i.e. you need a watch just to have a convenient means to tell the time. With that in mind it becomes easy to define what you need and then out of the available choices what you want. From there on individual preferences exert more and more influence in the decisions. I may like the look of a Black Bay 36 and apreciate the quality but I have bought the 114270 Rolex Explorer at twice the price because in the long run I am more likely to get my money back, or close to it. I work hard for my money to buy these trinkets and I would like to avoid the disappointment of "beautiful watch but man I have taken a bath on it". Not all that glitters is gold.
Glad you find my perspectives worth listening to. I don't profess to possess the truth but I enjoy the process of put my thoughts out there....
As for the whole value thing. I get it, totally. Very few on this planet have the money to not care at all about value, resale, etc....
Thanks for sharing 😃😃
The hell what anybody thinks…buy what you will wear, what you will admire, and what makes you ultimately proud and happy at the end of the day. Cheers!
Exactly 😃😃😃
Just recently stumbled upon your channel, while I've been getting to watches lately. (less than a year) Your content is gold and you're like the Gandalf of watch world as least in my opinion. I'm learning so much on what to look for a good watch. Like finding a good wine! or a whiskey!
Gandalf? The grey? 😂😂 Thanks for taking the time to share some feedback 😃
I think at the $8k price point you also have to factor in availability. I don't think there is any denying that availability has a large impact on Rolex value retention. If they were more available generally the price on the secondary market would be lower.
Very true. Good point 😃
Very true, another big factor ...
This is exactly the kind of high value content I was looking for on TH-cam, cheers man and thanks for putting it in words and making it public 😀
Glad you found my channel 😊
This is a free rulebook that every begging watch enthusiast needs to print out 😊 thank you for the amazing content!
You're very welcome 😀
Thank you for the last part. At the end of the day, it‘s just all a chunk of metal, doing a job that even my smartphone does better. This thought calms my materialistic urges to consume and impulsively buy more wrist metal. Your channel does a great job in not buying into the hype.
It's fascinating that people can have completely opposite reactions to a beautiful, hand-finished, Geneva-striped movement ... hidden away behind a solid case back.
Aesthetics are subjective 😀
Regarding COSC - I got a ball master diver that runs +1 every 4 or 5 days which is amazing. Paid $900 for it brand new at end model
close out with rubber strap. Brushed and finished case. Engraved design caseback, multi texture dial, large easy to see hands, 300m and double anti-reflective dome sapphire crystal. It is an amazing value and one of my favorite watches. There is absolutely nothing like it in design.
Good choice 😃
Finally a channel that actually speaks to what I want to know in watch buying!!.. thank you
Glad you found it worthy of your time 😃
The key differentiator over $8k? "It's complicated" I see what you did there on accident
😂
"Mass-produced luxury."
Think about what that actually means.
Something like Porsche maybe ?
Defining luxury is a tough one for most. ... 😃😃
You, sir, have earned a subscriber. I would pay a princely sum, relatively speaking, to have you be a shopping companion and expert advisor. Such eloquence about the hobby only comes from passion and genuine curiosity. Wonderful content!
He he... Buy me Nautilus and I'll shop for you on the side 😂😂
Jokes aside. Thank you 😊
Fantastic discussion with correct final assessment
Thanks for that 😀😀
Thanks for a very instructive and well thought out video. I agree with virtually everything you said, particularly that last part about we were buying something that we really don’t need, but want. And that is totally subjective. I buy my watches based on how they feel on my wrist, how I feel about them. I pick the watch I think I will feel the best about and then I shop like hell to find the best possible price. Which is kind of where your video leads me.
Thanks for sharing! 😃😃
I enjoy watching your market analysis ! Clearly your channel is differentiating and the content is best value proposition versus other “competitor” channels ;-)
Glad you like them! 😃
In this day and age there is no value proposition when it comes to watches because they serve no real purpose. This was already the case for mechanical when quartz came around, and is the case for watches in general now that we all have phones. There is no function, only emotion, at which point it is no different from jewellery. Watches are to (some) men what diamonds are to (some) women. And that is perfectly fine, so long as one does not pretend that it is anything more than that.
Thank you. As an outsider happy with my nice looking $100 Citizen You did an excellent job of rationalizing the purchase of an entry into the lower, possibly attainable, price ranges.
This was helpful.
happy to hear it 😊
Excellent analysis as usual! When I do an expensive purchase I actually have a spreadsheet and add value to different aspects of a particular item. The item must score above 85% before I would consider it. Goes for cars, watches and other things and it works for me. 😅 Have a great weekend Mike!
I have my watches on a formality × functionality plot. They're usually either full of functions and features, or suitable for more social occasions. But if a watch is both functional and formal (i.e. it's higher and further to the right), it's objectively better, because it's overall more usable.
@@vaclav_fejt Sounds like a good plan!
That sounds horrible.
@@AcmeRocket Well: Happy impulse buying to you too...
any chance you can share this spreadsheet 😁
Another very interesting and slightly provocative video, I have been collecting watches for around 40 years now (yes I’m old) and although most of my purchases have been “heart” purchases I still had a solid understanding of each of the watches. I love my Glashutte Seventies, My JLC Reverso Date Duotime, My Submariner (16610) and just about every other watch I’ve owned but sometimes I have bought a watch “just because” can we say Panerai 312, Zenith “Open Heart” El Primero or even my Ulysse Nardin Dual Time. Watch collecting in the past was 75% emotion and 25% investment. Bring back the old days when you could walk into a Rolex AD on St. Barts and buy a watch…..no hidden agenda on the AD’s part. Keep up the great videos.
I am becoming a technology Luddite and as such, not carrying my iPhone very much. The watch on my wrist is light, very strong (no scratches), and tells the time perfectly. No battery to worry about and it just keeps running. No-one notices it. I really don't care what the resale value is, because I am not going to sell it.
Probably the best video on the subject with exact facts and not just common place generalizations.
Thank - Glad you found it worth your time 😃😃
A watch has to please my eye (visual design), my wrist (ergonomic design), my brain (built quality), and my wallet (price).
If the former three correspond to or exceed the price, then the watch in question is good value to me. Of course, my demands are always evolving, but the equation stays the same.
I like that equation - makes sense 😃
I doubt I'll be able to afford any of the watches you discuss. I do, however, appreciate your analysis and clarity, in the brand and marketing proposition that manufacturers offer. I am also impressed by your speciation of consumer's drivers at different levels; especially at the level where it becomes more than the technical offer or aesthetics of the watch, and develops into an emotional reaction and resonance between buyer and product which outweighs objective factors.
I enjoy watching your talks, and find them a refreshing change from the sales oriented reviews that make up the majority of TH-cam channels.
Thank you - No. I'm not selling anything, just babbling on about watches 😊
Great video once more, what I say …… Wear the watches that give you the most pleasure, and happiness no matter what the price, at the end of the day that is the number one criteria.
Thank you
You're welcome 😃😃😃
Great content as usual Mike, I love the fact that you do your own thing, and come up with great topics to discus. Luxury items are emotional products, there's nothing rational about spending 7k on a watch when all it does is tell us the time that (as you said) your phone does better. The total cost of the watch is X and the rest of the cost is the image of the product, of which the brands spend millions building that. There seems to be no real logic to what makes a great watch, I think if buying a Rolex today was like buying a Rolex in the 90's where you did lose money, would we think it's a great watch for the money now? I'm not sure.
Interesting idea on the rolex perspective. Maybe worth a deep dive.
Thanks for the kind words 😃😃
I love the way he describes value in the watch world, particularly for each individual brand. I’m really learning a lot with his insightful wisdom. Thank you. Cheers from North America. 🇺🇸🍻
Thanks and cheers 😃😃
"You assigned value to the brand" saying that just clicked on me. Thank you sir 🙏. Looks like I'll be getting the Longines Spirit !
Great video Mike. I know the market loves Rolex but i don't care for them anf don't really think they that luxury. They are nice but luxury is exclusive and with over a million a year made that's not exclusive. I'll stick with my Omega at half the price and half the production number.
Good call! Thanks for the praise - Appreciated 😃😃
A great video for defining what may constitute good value for the price. Point is, the value of any watch--yes,even Invicta--will always be subjective . The value of a watch depends on what someone is willing to pay for it. Hence, my rule of thumb is that I will always buy a watch I desire on the secondary market. That way, most of the cost has been bought by the previous owner. Almost all of the watches I own I purchased
on the secondary market. Value for me is what I'm willing to pay for it.
Good perspective - Personal value. No more. No less 😃
I first commented about the fallacy of lower beat rates being inferior at the start of your video, now I must disagree with you on a late comment. something that your phone can do better, ...you are sadly right, but also I am very happy to report wrong on this point. A point I might add that is inextricably linked to my point regarding the beat rate fallacy.
Your point that we have spoiled watch makers during covid is ultra valid, but nowhere have we spoiled them more than with our general acceptance of this idea, or notion that mechanical, etc. watches are naturally rubbish at telling the time and we should just live with that fact because they are actually just fancy trinkets.
I'm glad that the British navy of old would not accept that guff and neither would Harrison back in the day and I assure you that neither do I in this far more modern and mechanically progressed era.
As I have said before and I can only hope the market, my fellow watch lovers will follow my example, I will not buy any specific watch unless I first check its specific accuracy. Thanks to my style I have a relatively inexpensive mechanical watch that is at least accurate to within a second per month [the longest I have worn my Hamilton Khaki Pilot Pioneer Mechanical in one stretch] and a quartz Grand Seiko that is dead on accurate and has not deviated from the time of the UK atomic clock for the entire year that I have been extremely proud to own it.
Clearly the state of the art today is capable of mass producing all types of watches that are superior to mobile phones, that after all require daily charging, when it comes to the job of telling the time, ...it only requires that we all demand accuracy of the modern watch industry. I assure you, the modern industry is well capable of the mass production of mechanical watches of the very highest accuracy and at modest prices.
As with price, when it comes to accuracy, we just have to stop behaving like a bunch of simps...
It's important to clarify a common misconception: referring to Glashütte Original as 'Lange light' isn't quite right. The original A. Lange & Söhne is indeed an integral part of the Glashütte Original.
The new Lange has little to do with the old one, but was started by a member of the Lange-family.
When it comes to the quality of movements, Glashütte Original often matches or even surpasses what Lange offers, except maybe in the realm of finishing where Lange is exceptionally renowned. However, it's worth noting that Glashütte Original also has a reputation for excellent finishing in their timepieces.
GO typically gets a lot of respect. Most people know GO.
Lots of respect for GO, but Lange is on a different level. Finishing is very good, but in no way surpasses Lange. The complications Lange produces are also of much higher technical ability than GO. All that said, people shouldn't compare as they are on different price points. GO is better value.
@beanhead47101 true. Lange is crazy money. GO is definitely better value.
Your in-depth, cerebral analyses are unique amongst the TH-camrs, and most welcome. Personally, I equate watches with Absurdism, in the Camus definition.
I'd really struggle to justify going beyond Tudor's level, which delivers ample quality and warranty; Omega at a push.
First time I saw the double swan neck regulator on the Panomatic I caught myself checking the dial to see the name of the brand, thinking it was a Lange. They are very good - Totally agree .😃😃
I went with a good movement and look that holds my interest, and went with the 39mm original conquest sunburst and love it. It has a Selita movement, brushed bracelet and indices on the dial. My other is the PRX. Yes, it has a "plastic movement" however, it is more accurate than the Longines.
Always an interesting discussion and analysis Mike. Refreshingly different content to other watch TH-camrs/salesmen.
Thanks a lot 😃😃
Really enjoyed this. Value with regards to watches is a very interesting, and often subjective area and you captured this idea really well
Thanks - Glad you found it worth your time 😃😃
Brand doesn't matter as much because of excellent micro-brands in the market today. What's more important are specs, finishing, and design style.
Another fenomenal vídeo…Though I don’t agree with certain assessments, for exemplo, I think that Omega movements are the most technically capable out of the 3 and the power reserve is almost irrelevant at this level of technical prowess, I would say your analysis is very interesting and you make some great points.
That being said, I believe that the choice comes fundamentally down to budget. Depending on your budget you won’t even consider certain offerings. And once you decided the models that fit into your budget, most of the decision will be made depending on aesthetics (+/- 60%), the brand name, aka the story (+/-30%), and finally the specs (+/- 10%). I do believe these are the defining factores for most consumers, regardless of the price point. For the enthusiast/ collector I would say that this doesn’t apply and definitely not with the same distribution for each factor.
Once again, a very interesting discussion. Great video!
yes, agreed on the power reserve as I am having 7 watches in my collection, one each day. So, everyday need winding it and set the time. Ironically, I use my phone to see what time it is.
@@powerrangers16712 I’m a bit more old school… just a flick of the wrist to look at the time :), but sometimes a get a certain reflection on my watch that looks so good that I forget to see the time.
Thanks - Glad you enjoyed it 😃😃
It’s funny but I don’t really rationalise my watches buying. At 18 I bought a Cartier Santos because I liked its design and the brand. Then I bought Hamilton because I was going to work in Vietnam so I wanted a proper field watch. Then I tested IWC because of its rattrapante complication. Then another IWC Doppelchronograph but this time in black ceramic which does not scratch and I duly verified this. The next one was the JLC Tribute to Polaris 1968 because of its mechanical alarm and it’s fabulous design with 3 crowns. Last year I bought the Omega Seamaster NTTD as I wanted a titanium watch and is subdued, discreet non shiny style with the Milanese bracelet was perfect. I also have a few Swatch and vintage pilot watches from the 30ies - 40ies. It’s all cool.
@@patrickjean-philippe7679 that’s exactly what I mean… buying a watch is more emotional then rational, that’s why the design is such an important aspect. That being said, once you start getting deeper into the hobby you start rationalising your purchases a bit more… I buy this or that because of this and that reason…
Well presented with a great structure and lovely narration. Continue to love and appreciate the videos on this channel.
Many thanks 😃You are very kind 😃
Your videos are very thought-provoking, and very entertaining. You deserve far more subs than you currently have, I'm certainly a fan
Thanks - My channel is growing which I am grateful for. Hadn't expected it to be where it is now after barely a year .😃
This is one of the most informative video on watches ever. Period.
I think you are right. I don’t collect (it’s probably because I started with a 14060m first. Nothing came close to 14060m.) I now have only few watches. Recently I bought 224270 and also began to wonder why Rolex meant so much to me. Obviously Seiko SKX and Sinn EZM3 both can do the job and tell time and act as perfectly no nonsense tool watch. Rolex at that price range is about connection and pursuit of something else.
Glad you found the video worthy of your time. Cheers 😃
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch you inspired me to become a hobby TH-camr!
I recently saw a Girard Perigaux world timer perpetual calendar in white gold, going for $7k usd, which had a original retail at 50-60k. Meanwhile you have people paying $3 million for a $30k watch that just happens to have a different color of dial. The idea of "great value" for a watch is often thrown aside
7K for a WG GP? Wild..... Did you buy? .😃😃
Excellent. As you point out it’s really about the story that you relate to. For me, it was the Omega moon watch a few years ago. Now I’m working on a story about some Pilot style watches and not the ones with useless complications.
Spot on 😊
Had some plastic gear break in my 4R36 Seiko 5, people prace the movement as a workhorse that is serviceable and can just keep on going.
Something that is true, but it also DOES NOT mean it will ever be serviced, as it simply is not cheaper than replacing it, as a watchmaker spending an extra hour of their time has a higher value then the entirety of the movement. Though dependent on labor rates in different contries, in my country the labor rate of a service would be so many times worth the movement it's a no brainer.
So I don't really get how people can hate on the Powermatic 80, while pracing the Seiko movements. I know the PW80 is much harder to adjust than the Seiko, but besides that.
When my Seiko broke during warrancy, the movement was just junked and a new was put in, as it's the reasonable thing to do.
I think people here on youtube, (not saying THIS channel, as this channel is pretty good on this subject), just the majority of TH-cam in general tend to have a need to get a better understanding of the cost analysis side of the industry.
I am aware it is also not great, as the watch conpanies tend to not want to be too open about their actual production lines, as it would ruin the illustion of the humans putting together fine small machinery like it's 1950s Switzerland. Still, we need to be able to not walk around the salad dodging that it will all break at some point, sometimes the quartz will go first, but in many cases the mechanical watch will become unusable first.
2 cent from some that enjoys watches, but are feed up with marketing bs.
You make some sensible comments regarding the seiko v powermatic 80, I had sort of overlooked. Such as dissing the P80, because it is basically a throwaway when work is needed. However, for a non watch repairer, where is the financial sense in sending a 4R movement (or equivalent) to a professional for repair or probably even a service? Bang a new movement in it.
Fair points in many respects. Appreciate your candor 😃
I feel like I went to watch school after watching this 😆 Great deep dive on the subject of price and value, which is something we all deal with as watch collectors/enthusiasts
I hope not. School killed me.... Slept or daydreamt most of the time 😂😂
In the $7000 to $10000 price point you forgot Grand Seiko. Probably for me the best finish with incredible movements. Doesn’t have the snob value of say a Rolex or others but I truly believe technically GS is actually better. Surprised you left it out.
GS is never forgotten. They should cost double consider what you get in terms of finishing and tech. 😃😃
I own 5 watches which all are still working well. Prices are between Euro 400 and Euro 2700. The only one which I wear all the time is my Mido TV Big date which I bought under Euro 1000. This watch is very accurate with the Powermatic 80 caliber. I do not agree with you that there is a substantial difference between 4 and 3 Hz. I don’t think that a Rolex or a Grand Seiko is more accurate than my Multifort .
Luxury goods are able to defy the economic law of "deminishing returns to a factor".A different law applies where branding can cause people to loose their minds.Thanks for another insightful video.
Cactus Jack AP maybe? 😂😂
I never comment on videos but I have to say, this is the most informative watch related video I’ve seen in months. Amazing video! 😊
Thank you! Really appreciated 😃😃😃
Very thoughtful approach - have watches across all these price categories and the guide is very helpful!
Glad you found it worth listening to. It's not an objective set of laws of nature or whatever but it is a set of broad guides that work for me ... 😃😃😃
I own several vintage Omega Watches. They start from 1934 to 1973. They all work and keep good time. I think if you really want a mechanical
Watch vintage Omega watches are great starting point. My 1934 Omega is a simple wind watch . I am really impressed how accurate the watch is for a
90 year old watch. It is a fifteen manual winding watch. My top Omega is a 1949 Tresor. The first year for this name watch। It is a manual wind 17 jewel,
18k Rose Gold case, black face, second sub dial, horween band and a 18k Rose Gold band. The watch is 74 years old . It is near perfect condition
It keeps accurate time. Looking at the watch you can’t tell how old the watch is. Today day Omega sells an updated look a like of my watch. I have seen prices of $17k to 19k. But my watch is the first addition of this watch. I am quite pleased to own it. There are no cheap parts in this watch.
I believe that with care buying an Omega vintage watch is a very good buy.
Tudor Black Bay 54 has to be one of the best value watches on the market for those wanting a solid, vintage aesthetic from an established Swiss brand at it's given price.
A pre owned black bay makes perfect sense too , at approx 2K it’s holding its value all day long
@@peterpaterson7320 Yeah, you're not really going to be loosing much money there. I'd say the same is probably true with a used Omega Seamaster / Aqua Terra
Agree... Tudor has really raised the bar for value in that price range. 😃😃
Perfect explanation of quality curve. I have decided to keep my collection limited to watches under $6k based on the law of diminishing returns. I will use that extra money to travel the world with my Longines, Tudors, and Tissots, and a Grand Seiko. Experiences are invaluable. I will buy a couple of extra watches. I get bored seeing many of the people I work with all have the same Rolex submariner. Variety is also valuable. An AP Royal Oak is out of my price range but my Baume et Mercier Rivera has similar looks and great quality and history. I like the styling and ruggedness of the Rolex Explorer and Air King, my Longines Conquest is just has tough in a similar style at a fraction of the price. Took the price difference and took a vacation to Jordan to see Petra.
That's the thing - 6K and below gets you A LOT of watch 😊
I think the watch hobby/culture have a lot of emotional attachment and aesthetic involve, and even for a brand like Seiko, Casio, Timex to brands like AP, Vacheron, JLC or Rolex, a lot of esoterics plays to their success. In short, a lot of fanboyism and the brands know how to take advantage of it😂.
Thank you for the video.
You're welcome 😃😃
Funny, I prefer non polished watches as these tend to be more subtle and discreet… I prefer discretion.
Superb video again! They only thing I would add to the top tier range is the feeling you have on the wrist. I do think that e.g
Rolex makes here a better job compared to the much thicker Omega, for instance
Yeah, a super important point. Everyome raves about it. But it's 14.6mm thick!
Good point! Thanks for the feedback also 😃😃
Very informative and wise, methinks. Well done. My own view (you asked for it!), is that I must achieve, or convince myself I've achieved, value-for-money. I don't think I've ever made a watch purchase where I couldn't claim it was good value. Looks, specs, brand history et cetera are what interests me in a watch, but for me to buy, I need to believe I'm getting my money's worth. Either because I believe the RRP is far (say for a Doxa Sub 300 with a COSC movement (~$2.5K USD)), or I get a discount from the seller. Either way, the watch needs to be a value. As a result, other than Rolex, I don't spend more than your mid-tier list of Oris, Tudor, or Grand Seiko. I hard for me to see value past $6K, not because it's not there, but because the attributes of fine watchmaking are less tied to durability and a practical use case. Shifting topics somewhat, if I may, I'd like to suggest the topic of emergence of the Chinese brands (Steeldive, San Martin, etc.) and their challenge to the Japanese and, eventually, perhaps to the Swiss. They are ascendant, and already pushing the Japanese to go up market. From a very practical perspective, they offer excellent value-for-money and are a revelation as to the quality on offer for a few hundred dollars, at least to me. Most obviously, Seiko has had to adjust their offerings and price points in response. Perhaps in 20 years they will be challenging the Swiss directly. I'd love to hear your thoughts. All the best.
But Chinese watches aren't worth servicing, which is beyond the value of the watch.
As usual very good analysis. I sort of memorized the points for my next purchase. Thanks a lot
Thanks - Remember to apply your own assessment and research as well. My approach is not a universal law of course. But really happy you find it useful 😃
The concept of “value” in a luxury product may be misplaced. I’m convinced of this more and more from my TH-cam friend Pete McConvill. This is what you touched on. With luxury products it’s more about the intangibles and emotion based on what a person gets out of owning an object. This probably would be an interesting study in psychology as a next step. Keep up the excellent content.
Need to account for the herd effect though
Tend to agree. Value is really wierd when it comes to a chunk of metal, but to many it's a factor because they are so expensive 😃😃
My issue is I love love love the BB58 but my heart is with that co-axial. The history behind that movement is one of the things that got me into to watches. I’m stuck, but one day will make that decision.
😃
Probably the best and most concise explanation of watch ownership and perceived value... loving your channel
Awesome! Thank you sooo much 😀😀😀
I think you are correct. I have to stop comparing watch to watch when trying to assess value for brand. Been doing this incorrectly for years and wasting a boatload of money.
what's really interesting to me is the value that people place on luxury items, and the way society perceives these in general. Beyond technical specifications + objective measures, there is a measurable number which people are willing to pay - and somehow this is supported and valued in the way that society operates (e.g. the fact that some people value a $20k Hublot or $100k handbag, makes them worth those amounts). The way society places "value" on seemingly thin air is truly amazing - and very real.
The big thing that you left out of all this is how a watch (physically) feels to put on, take off, wind, set, wear.
The Swatch x Blancpain Scuba gets a lot of stick and constant suggestions of what's a better way to spend the money it cost, but for a lot people its a fun addition to a collection that they get more enjoyment out of than a Citizen etc.
Great video and advice ; )
Knowledge is Power!
Love the calm and rational analysis you always bring forward.
Nevertheless there are some watch brands that do have superior technical specs and an incredible level of finish for their price range (Grand Seiko) but I do understand that placing them here would have changed the videos entirely in the high end mass produced luxury. 😜
You are so right. I’ve been diving into GS lately and I continue to be astounded by the level of detail and finishing and tech that goes into their watches at a incredibly competitive price. They are one of the “exceptions to the rule”
😀😀
Formex Reef…comes in TWO sizes 3 -5 dial colors, 2 bracelet options both with OTF adjustment, a rubber option with a OTF adjustable deployant clasp. Oh a cosc certified sw300 with 56 hours pr and 28800 br
Bingo. Great watch 😃😃
This is a great thought process, I always try and buy watches for what they’re worth, either buying used or in sale, hammy Pilot pioneer rrp £900 bought for £500, Seiko alpinist 1959 over 2k rrp bought for 1k. Seiko spb213 rrp over £1k bought for £600. You can always find the piece you want at the price it should be if your patient
Smartest watch channel on TH-cam
Very kind of you 😃
I at all times would chose fully brushed / blasted over polished. And there is one brand that can woop many asses. And that’s Squale
1521 - Brushed, blue on mesh. Was on my wrist for many years until I lost it in a bar one night 😃😃
New to your channel and love your analytical insights. Thank you!!
Thanks for subbing! 😃😃
As someone who does not view watches as investments, I am a person who keeps watches permanently. I don't flip watches. So for me, I place Glashutte at the top but will not pay 14,000. But 8000 on the used market is a deal to me. Rolex is not on m list. I like Omega co-axial over Rolex and find nothing about omega to be old or dated. A speed master needs to stay old and dated. I will say it's time to get rid of those ridiculous helium valves which are just another potential leak point. As for Hammilton, Oris, CW, Tissot, on and on, well, they are all the same. Eta 2824, 2893, 7750, SW200, SW300 etc etc. Pick the case and dial color you like and that's that but inside they are all the same. Pick what you and ware it. COSC, who the hell cares, not me. All my 2824 and 2893 and 7750 watches lose a bit of time over a month when I need to adjust the date. And since I change watches often, I need to set the time each time I ware them and by the time I rotate, they many only be of less than 60 seconds. A few minutes are nothing. The 2824 is workhorse movement and as good as any Rolex Sub, its just not polished inside where I can't see it anyway. I will say I have a thing for the Yacht master platinum but can't see myself paying $12,000 for a used one just because I like the look of what is not really mechanically any different than a 2824, 2983 or SW200, SW300. The 7750, wow that is an ugly movement and it's noisy but, a left handed carpenter can ware one while hammering nails all day long. How can you beat that.
Excellent analysis, Mike, as always. You have a great way of breaking down your topic and putting a very thoughtful bow around it. Thank you!
Watches for some of us are enigmatic windows into our psyche.
Truly a Mandala
Thank you kindly 😃😃
Dude, you are smart! Other TH-camrs are useful to see the actual watches outside the misleading magazine pictures, but offer no real arguments on their speech… I’m glad you talk about watches and not cryptos or leveraged investments, I’d be doomed then!!! 😂
Congratulations for the channel from Spain.
Thanks for the feedback. Glad you enjoy my content. I basically try to do videos with the premise "Would I want to spend 20 minutes watching this myself?". So far that seems to work 😃
Excellent breakdown. As you said, from a certain price point onwards the "value" is mostly subjective and down to that little jolt of joy you get when you wear it (or look at it😅)
Thanks for the feedback - appreciated 😃😃
Excellent evaluation, as usual. I like to see and understand what I'm paying for and consequently assign no value whatsoever to brand status. I buy purely on design and quality/robustness, I buy what I like with little regard to investment (no so-called 'luxury' items can ever be a true investment) and I am therefore happy to swim in the so-called 'entry' to 'mid' level, whatever those vague terms mean. I evaluate and set my own price/value which is often far lower than the makers rrp, especially so in more recent years with the extraordinary price hikes we have experienced. Then I usually negotiate an appropriate discount, wait for a sale or buy used-mint. I would never wear a Rolex even if given one, for many and varied reasons, we all make our own choices.
Thank you - also for sharing your thoughts 😊
You’re going to hit 20k subs before no time. Best horological commentary on the net, hands down.
I'd be very curious to see JLC's sales numbers since they raised prices. JLC wasn't selling that well prior to the price jump, and one can only guess that it's considerably worse now.
Similarly, I wonder how many of the grotesquely overpriced new IWC Ingenieurs have sold.
Agree. At $8-9k the Ingenieur would have been a huge W and brought in so many 1st time IWC buyers. Gigantic failure.
I think JLC are going for the Parker Pen effect. They have to be perceived as luxury and to some extent, exclusive. It's a difficult ask, but one way of suggesting that the master control range should be discussed in the same breath as a calatrava is to reduce the price difference
I think JLC is on an upward trajectory and Richmond is going to keep on pushing them for brand recognition and to distance themselves from the IWC and get closer to the Vacherin. IMO
@@jeremylaunais8649 they’ll need to make watches people want to buy first. Raising prices while continuing to make watches with unappealing design language doesn’t seem like a winning formula.
We know so much that Richemonts overall watch business contracted in the first half of 2023. I don't see how it wasn't also JLC that got hit there....Personally I think they got hit hard... 😃😃
Great video! Looks like we can all agree that Seiko is overpriced in every tier these days!
100%
Sadly. But nobody makes dials like them, save some microbrands.
And I want that Alpinist!
Maybe not GS - I do think some of their models are super competitive especially when you take into account dials and case finishing. But regular Seiko - I would definitely tend to agree that they are not keeping up.
Thanks for sharing 😃😃
I have owned several high end watches. Glashutte Original Seaq wins for two major standout reasons - quality control in parts manufacture and quality control in assembly. Everything else stays in the drawer.
Great, well thought out and articulated as always. In the 8-10 segment, maybe the analogy should be ‘joining a country club’.
True
Lol. 😂 Possibly... 😂
A very concise perspective on how to evaluate timepieces 😮
You probably get loads of comments about specific brands being ignored and/or overlooked, but if you chased that elusive rabbit down the hole, you'll never satisfy everyone.
I believe this analysis to be noteworthy for all collectors, enthusiasts, and toe dippers alike.
Why?
Because you've approached the subject matter in price brackets and used immediately recognisable brands to cater to all levels of horological know-how; from the first timer to the well-oiled fanatic.
If viewers have a particular brand in mind, all they have to do is look at the price bracket, apply the same context to said watch / brand, and consider the same points as potentially applicable to the exact brand in mind.
I often find that those of us who delve deep into the horological rabbit hole, often forget that the overriding vast majority of people on Earth don't know and/or don't give a damn about microbrands or boutique watchmakers, so unless content is exclusively targeted at the *insert subject* geek, us geeks need to accept that the net can only cast wider if the catch is less specific and most recognisable to the lay buyer.
Thanks for this great content.
Thanks a lot for sharing and for the feedback - It's truly appreciated. And yes - I have to pick some reference points. 18 minutes of listing all good brands would likely be super tedious...😃
Another great episode. This is my favorite watch channel by far. Consistently Good job.
Thanks a ton 😃😃
Why would I look up the resale value before buying a watch?? This can only lead to me buying hype watches instead of what I really like
You might not, but many people do....😃😃😃
The best value proposition that I bought - a Baume &Mercier Clifton Baumatic - 5 day power reserve, COSC certified movement with alligator butterfly strap and rhodium sun burst dial and a beautiful see-through case back.
All for under USD 2500.
Thank You for a great & informative video. I expect to hear your voice over a documentary soon!
My and David Attenborough 😂😂😂
I can hear it, Planet Earth 10. “..the seal has no idea he’s in danger as he frolics playfully in the water. From the depths, the hunters go stealth as they close in….” 😂
Basically watches are a hobby similar to collecting old cars. Completely unnecessary, but they bring joy.
What a fancy watch comes down to is basically jewelry. Do you want a big diamond ring or a small one. Does it matter to everyone else that your diamond is flawless and rare? Probably not, but you know.