Ultegra Di2 12 speed is the worst choice. But why?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 มิ.ย. 2024
- Why Shimano Ultegra Di2 12 speed is the worst group set choice you can make for both performance and cost.
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You can tell this guy doesn't have any friends
Are you offering? 🤭
front shifting on di2 is so much better than mechanical, even that's enough to buy.
The other day I got on my bike (sram group set) set off, shifted the FD and it moved up to the Big ring without a sound… and I was like 🤤
I guess it depends on who built your bike? 🙂
No, it depends on how much time has passed from the last service 😉
It is 16. I have both r7000 105 with 11-30 and Ultegra r8100 with 11-30. The ability to more often be sitting in the most efficient gear more often is one that I very much underrated. I'm not sure I would ever go back to mechanical groupsets after putting about 5k km on my 12spd Ultegra di2.
Super! 👍🏻
Di2 has been a god send for me. I have limited use of my right arm. Cannot use paddle shifter on right. So I could not upgrade from my budget center activated shifting. With DI2 I was able to program the DI2 to shift with sync shifting with only left paddle. Beyond that the shifting is precise and once set is idiot proof.
I have had Di2 Ultegra for seven years now, over 25K miles, it’s genius! Best upgrade, no doubt! Works great! Much better than mechanical shifting, full stop
Only, it’s heavier, more expensive, needs to be charged, doesn’t make you faster…. And so on and so on.
But apart from all that, it’s the best upgrade. Well, if you don’t consider literally everything else on the bike.
Personally folks I’d no take this advice, there are plenty of better upgrades to make before getting Di2 and it’s difficult to even consider Di2 as an upgrade.
@@reginaldscot165 I guess you haven't used the electronical shifting in hilly environments? You're definitely much faster with electronical shifting going up and down. I have used mechanical shifting over 30 years and would never return to mechanical shifting for this reason.
@@reginaldscot165 There are many of us who love the elegance and performance without being driven by 'is it faster'. Many cyclists are enthusiasts for fitness, fun, endurance and social connection while enjoying road biking. That's me. I LOVE my Ultegra 12 speed Di2.
How many times have you skipped a ride because you forgot to charge your battery? How many times have you taken it to the shop for reprogramming because it wasn't working properly? I have two riding buddies with Di2, and I've seen these failures multiple times. How many times has it stuck in top gear on a ride, as we've seen happen on Froome's, Almeida's, and many other pros' professionally maintained bikes? I've been riding the same mechanical shifting for 22 years on 3 different frames (now 'retired' on my rain bike), still works perfectly every day, every ride, every time, having only replaced the rear derailleur because of a crash (Campy Record 10 new in 2001). I will never buy a battery operated group, just so I don't have to charge it. They're perfectly good when they're working, but there's simply no functional advantage over top-tier mechanical shifting, and they're less reliable, more expensive to buy and maintain, and heavier. Period.
@@reginaldscot165 first and only video I have seen.
Yea, di2 is more expensive at the moment. if you like your old mechanic and don't want a change, I can understand you don't like it. But please, you are just alienating yourself from your youtube audience if you belittle the people who like it.
I didn't watch to the end so if you said anything useful that would contradict that impression, that's why. I have both mechanical and di2 ultegra, and nobody is going to tell me that di2 sucks in comparison. Because I have zero issues with it, and if it was cheaper I'd replace the mechanical one with another set. But then again, prices will go down in time.
I don't want electronic shift because I have already waaaay too many batteries to keep charged. However my ultegra has cables hidden going through many bends and shifting in winter with numb fingers is a real annoyance where I wish I had Di. My old Campa Record was infinitely better as one could shift up with the thumb while sprinting.
Maybe wrong frame and wrong group set rather than need Di2 then? 😁 yes I have the same feeling about the number of batteries I need to charge already! Woke up for a ride this morning and my computer is flat because I forgot to charge… but at least my gears still work! 😂
There are some real differences between ultegra and 105 Di2 that can make it worth considering. The front shifting is far faster on Ultegra and there are additional buttons on the shifters that some people think are highly beneficial.
Thank you for the info 👍🏻
That's where you can upgrade just the FD or just the shifters and still save some money. In MTB groupsets, I'd say Deore 12s is all you need with hte addition of XT shifters.
So many stupid points made... Saying that electronic groupsets are ok if you disable or lazy, is just dumb, if you have short hands you will appreciate it, the ease of use of di2 is noticeable, the shifting performance is better, no gear cable breaking... More, comparing the lightest groupset ever (sram red 11sp rim brake) with the new ultegra 12sp di2 is just dumb... If you have to compare do it with ultegra 11sp mechanic or di2. Saying that di2 is way worst to maintain is just false, if you brake some part is worst because is expensive, but if you don't brake it is virtually maintenance free. The reason to buy ultegra vs 105, ultegra is lighter, have all the old features on di2 and some more, and have the exact performance of dura-ace. Why you shouldn't buy dura-ace... Price price price... Just one more thing... Climbing gear 23, 25, 28...😅 Climbing gear is an 32, 34, 36... Which is the highest gear an regular cage sram red 11sp derailleur can get to? So that is not an negative in this days?
Short hands is a disability… and you know what they say about men with small hands… 😉
Also if you need 36T for climbing… you need an MTB. Not a Road bike. 😎
Spot on sir. Probably the writer cannot afford di2.
The thing I like best about electronic is that I'm less likely to make shifting mistakes when my brain is fried and it won't get out of adjustment on a ride. I also like the fact that it shows gear use. I've used it to reevaluate my setup.
@@reginaldscot165 there are pros that use larger cassettes. Why grind up a 20% grade in a 28 when you can spin up in a 36?
@@DaveCM why would you ride a 20% hill anyway?
In my opinion DI2 is the first iteration of indexed shifting that is not a nuisance. Finally Shimano got it figured out.
The advantage of motor shifting is not only that two motors are handling the chain for you - and it's not only that those motors do it faster and more precise than a human could ever do it. _The main advantage is that derailleur gears shifting is made to be as simple as planetary gearset shifting._
The computer knows which gear I'm in. When the next defined gear needs a shift in the front it does it and compensates with a predefined number of shifts in the back - and trims the front derailleur accordingly. The rider does not need to think or know about all those details.
It’s a very insignificant advantage for all the disadvantages in my opinion and it’s only going to get worse. Make your bike dependent on electronics and they will have you by the balls in the future. Updates, tracking, obsolescence, mandatory service, subscription! No thanks!
@@reginaldscot165 Hmmm...seeing you, probably I'm at least twice older than you. Reading you makes it 180 degrees different.
It’s so encouraging to see someone your age saying these things. My
Hope for the future has been reignited.
Yes but unfortunately I’m in a minority 😢
Yesterday, I got a beautiful Look bike with the last steel frame they made (1997) and it has a Campagnolo Racing Triple 8 speed, and I'm amazed at how well it works. The full multishift and trimming on all 4 shifters are neat features. My Di2 failed in the lowest gear, so why bother with that bs? I'm fed up with the modern plastic infested and marketing fueled rubbish.
I love a good triple chainring. ❤️ sounds like a wonderful bike. 😍
I have a old aluminuym Giant with triple ring, was very happy to go to a compact set in the front with a used 10 year old carbon de rosa.
@@reginaldscot165
Pretty uneducated considering the advancements in bike tech. I would never go back to mechanical.The reason 11s and 12s exist is to reduce the difference in effort between each gear if it was as you say all pros would ride mechanical. If you are racing a bike Di2 is essential. Any rider on mech is at a disadvantage.
I see you have someone playing golf as your thumbnail? That’s all I need to know. 🤭
The reason pros use anything is because they are paid to use it by companies that sponsor them for millions of dollars to promote their products. It has literally nothing to do with how good the product is. It’s obvious to anyone who doesn’t take everything at face value.
@@reginaldscot165 Hi Reg, be careful on comments regarding other sports. I am an avid racer of bikes love a good crit. And can tell you if your not riding electric in a crit you are doomed. The fast and accurate shifting with electric changes when and how you shift EG while sprinting. Some of the best athletes on the planet ride bikes for exercise.
@@davidwitts3354 I doubt that video and advices of Reginald are made for pro athletes... I also guess that 99% of the viewers here are amateur riders, with more or less ambitions... So I don't really get your point here...
I’ve got 105, 11-speed mechanical, and I always thought that electronic was just a luxury. I also had 10-speed, mechanical, DuraAce. Then, I bought a bike with hidden cables and went with 11-Speed, Ultegra Di2 to avoid the chance of binding cables.
It turns out that I love Di2. The experience is superior with accurate shifting every time. On mechanical sets, it’s just never quite perfect. It changes as cables stretch. When in a quiet gear, I would second guess shifting, worrying that the next gear might be clunky. Electronic reduces the energy put into shifting; not so much the physical effort, but the mental effort. No more need to shift up and down to get a better alignment, or to lean on the shifter to quiet the chain.
Of course, there are reasons to stay with mechanical. Maybe it’s out of budget. Or maybe you’re planning a trek across an undeveloped country. But if you can afford it and do rides near civilization, Di2 delivers the cleaner experience.
If a great cycling experience is a top goal, it’s worth it.
It sounds like you didn’t have a good bike mechanic. My Shimano Ultegra and my SRAM Red mechanical shift without issue flawlessly. If I have any issues a small adjustment that takes about 10 seconds normally fixes it.
I can see that for people who don’t have a good mechanic or don’t understand how cable shifting works might find Di2 more foolproof? But then again if they don’t have a good mechanic Di2 might be set up wrong in the first place? 🤔
New cables settle in, so adjustments are needed when first installed. Also, the tolerances in the shift lever are super tight, so if they are off my just a little, a given gear can have the derailleur move too much or too little. In that case, no setting (or expert mechanic) can adjust it to be perfectly linear.
Electric shifting at the derailleur, rather than at the lever can be much more reliably accurate. There’s no drift and no non-linearity. It’s simply a superior experience for me. I had no idea how much I dislike noisy gears. The lack of noise and reliability of the shifts on Di2 has been a much superior experience for me.
great points Jon!
And virtually meaningless if you’re concerned about actual performance gains and cost vs benefits gained.
@@Mottleydude1 A good shift vs a missed shift at a crucial moment in a race can be a significant performance gain. Having the chain lined up well in every gear is a performance gain.
Whether it’s worth it or not depends on finances. I have one electronic and two mechanical. I prefer electronic, but haven’t wanted to spend the cash on my winter and XC bikes.
I understand the scepticism about the electronic groupset.
I'm using m6100 groupset for the drivetrain, if I broke a shifter or lever it's cheaper to replace it.
Can a regular mechanic even maintenance a electronic groupset? Will it retain the water protection after opening it?
I would imagine you would need to replace any rubber seals after? But how it would effect the warranty I don’t know?
My 10 year old Tiagra derailleur failed last year (lost its tension), because of newer pull ratios being different it was difficult to replace. Thankfully my excellent local bike shop had an old 10 speed Ultegra one laying around (from someone who had upgraded to an 11 speed), so they cleaned that up and installed it cheaply. Shifts like a dream and looks great! Mechanical all the way.
Excellent!
SRAM doesn't even offer mechanical groupsets for road at this point. I realize you can still find the stuff out there, but the point is that they are betting (their entire business) that people will buy electric over mechanical. Electric shifting is like having a dog. If you've never had one, who cares, but once you get one, it's like how do you ever go back to not. Your point about getting to the gear you want quickly makes sense for mtb, gravel or riding at a very leisurely pace on the road, but if you're racing or KoM hunting, it's more important to have the most efficient gear possible as much of the time as possible, so the extra step in the middle is definitely helpful. It's not like you're gonna be swinging from the 11 all the way to the 28 and back again , over and over and over. Also, you're exaggerating how much this stuff costs. I just picked up a full 105 Di2 group (for a customer, not my bike) for $1205 US retail. I think the same place was selling the R8150 group for $1650, which is like $2500ish AUD. Still stupid $ for a group, but a lot less than you claim. VERY few people are thinking about this stuff. Most people just want to buy a bike and ride it, and will buy whatever bike they can afford with the fanciest features. Also, like 99.9999% of electric shifting works perfectly, without any attention being paid whatsoever to it's upkeep. If people keep their drivetrain clean, and charge the bike once a month, they can ride their bike for years without ever missing a single shift of having any issue or maintenance cos. You factor in that almost every bike is internally routed these days, and the cost (or time) of replacing cables and housing every season becomes a bit of a nuisance. Also, nobody gives two shits what anybody else rides, be it microshift or super record, idk maybe that's an Aussie thing?
Yes, people will buy electronic if they don’t get a choice and they are pumped full of false promises and marketing. And the rest of the freedom loving free thinking individuals will suffer.
@@reginaldscot165 I don't think they don't get choice. There is many times more people who want to pay up to 250 bucks for entire bike than those wanting the expensive, better hi tech. So, manufacturers always will make cheaper mechanical stuff in this era time, to get biggest customers group money.
Mechanical all the way only problem is a lot of the frames are being made for only electronic only that’s why I like making my own contemporary steel frames as a hobby.
You sound like the kind of person we need more of in the world to be honest. 😅
Wow, respect! Not to mention you're one step closer to casting aluminium, maybe... Good luck!
; )
Specialized's Tarmac SL7 is one of the few bikes with integrated internal routing that can take any mechanical groupset, not just Shimano's top three.
I was happy with a 7 speed Shimano Tourney and used it for 2 years before I upgraded to 105 Mechanical. I've been on 105 since. I only upgraded the chainring to 56T (3rd Party). Cheap, good and durable works for me. Having no de-lamination issue on the crank was a surprise and made me believe I made the right choice.
Yes it’s a great choice! The 105 crank doesn’t have the same design at the Ultegra or Dura-ace so it won’t split. 🙂👍🏻
More speeds gives a better chance of finding the proper cadence at a given speed. I think it's a better system for electronic shifting.
It’s a valid argument, how much difference it makes is up for debate?
@@reginaldscot165 More speeds added, the bigger difference. Simple.
I have mechanical group set bikes including Dura Ace, but have to overhaul the cables once a year due to wear. Whereas Di2 just takes a bit of charging and problems are rare. Also with disc brakes I learned how to bleed the system and have a 1 litre bottle of Shimano mineral oil ready for this task, which is about once every two years.
You have to overhaul your cables once a year???
I have lived in wet and cold UK and in hot and Humid Asia and I think I’ve only needed to replace my cables because of rust 1 time… in 20 years. The other times I changed them because of upgrades or improvements. But I wax my cables before they go in so maybe that’s why?
Try waxing your cables. 🙂
Safe riding!
If one is using dura ace cable, it won’t last that long with that “coating” they have on it. Starts peeling off by just looking at it the wrong way.
I replace cables for customers all the time. Sometimes they break in the shifters and are a pain to dig out. I am talking about cables in bikes with a year of use 5000 miles.
SRAM has much better cable routing than Shitmano which will bugger up gear cables really fast in comparison.
I have Shimano Ultegra R8000 mechanical on my road bike and Shimano GRX Di2 on my gravel bike. Electronic shifting is the best hands down and I'll be getting it on my road bikes in the future for sure. Weight gains is marginal if you ask me and the electronic shifting outweighs that.
Great! More battery waste and a bright future of paying for software updates for group sets! All for? Slightly better shifting? (Depending on how good your mechanic is?)
Love your message. I have an SL6 rim with Ultegra 11s and Hypers. Constantly debating with myself wether or not I should/want to upgrade to di2. It just seems like thé holy grail.
That sounds almost as good as you can get!
Rim 👍🏻
Not an SL7 👍🏻
Hypers 👍🏻
Mechanical Group set 👍🏻
Winning! 👏🏻
I have one bike with electronic and the other mechanical. The only time I miss electronic is on the rare occasions I have new cables and they stretch while on a ride. The second is when I'm completely bonked and mechanical just takes more thought process. (I will occasionally under or over throw shifts when I'm spent.) Electronic shifts faster, but I never saw that as a problem. But, I'm not racing in a crit either.
@@DaveCM Funny thing is, with the right cables and proper tuning, mechanical can actual shift faster....at least until the cables stretch a bit of course.
@@DaveCM You can actually pre-stretch new cables when you install them, this is what I do now. Just install them like usual (don't cut to size yet), actuate the shifter multiple times while holding the derailleur (there'll be cable slack when you're done if there was no slack upon initial installation), undo the cable clamp, redo it, index and cut to size.
i have the same setup. go Di2.
Was riding 10sp Ultegra from 2008 until this year when I got Ultegra Di2 12 speed. Is it a better riding experience and easier to maintain and shift with? Like night and day! Was it expensive? No, because I keep my bikes running for several years, so the upgrade cost/year is negligible.
Good luck running as long as you did your 10 speed. 🙂👍🏻
Like you said, its your opinion. Luckily its just that, thank heavens.
True, if everyone had my opinion the bike industry wouldn’t be able to sell this over priced stuff and make lost more money. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 Yeah, and Shimano, Sram, etc. would get broke because of you repairing all the existing stuff - so no spare parts anymore at all... so good there are some people out there who feed the industry.... ;D ;D
@@reginaldscot165 What would be bad for many of us. Luckily there is not many, especially market influencing people sharing your weirdo opinions, e.g. "8 speed is the same as 12 speed".
I think this is hilarious. I've been saying this about Ultegra for years, even on the mechanical. However DA mechanical did make sense because there were major internal differences (material and sometimes design) verses Ultegra and the others. 105, Ultegra and DA shift the same when new, regardless of what Ultegra ownets tell you. However, it's after 4-5 years of frequent use that you understand DA. . No expense spared in making DA. I have always called Ultegra, "105SL."
With Di2, it's all the same internally whether it's 105, Ultegra or Dura Ace. The only differences are in the mechanical items which are more for weight savings. The actual electronics are the same. I bought my first Di2 bike in 2011. It was a Felt F1 and have owned two other Di2 bikes. I currently have three bikes...all running DA 11 speed mechanical.
Good and interesting comment. Thank you. 🙂👍🏻
The bigest advantage of more gears (here:12) is the addition of one bigger sprocket. ( Have all your usual gears and one climbing gear added ) Also the crosschaining is not so bad when using your big chainring. Ok: the chain is narrower = worn out faster.
Also the reasoning with pro teams in mind is wrong.
Normal people will use ( and pay ) that stuff. A Pro will use any stuff and tell the media " the best i've ever ridden".😅
But the biggest advantage of Di2 is the shifting on eBikes. ( Ask Mr.Cancellara😂🤭😛) When shifting, the motor will cut and allow for a precise, clean and fast shift.
Yes please should never follow the Pros because they are paid to use that stuff. It’s on my list of videos to make. 🤭
Sounds a sensible and logical viewpoint. However I will buy my next bike with 105 di2. Two main reasons. 1 self trimming derailleur , don't have to worry about gear cables renewal /adjustments. 2. Smooth changing under load when half way up a 15 % climb. Bike will be 7.8 kg which is not particularly light but fine for my club rides.
Or… get SRAM FORCE or RED 22 for the same price or less.
No trim function.
Shifts fine.
Looks better.
I don’t remember the last time i “needed” to change a gear cable.
Adjusted infrequently.
Easy to fix and get parts for and no special tools or software required.
Will make your bike super light.
@@reginaldscot165 Have you noticed more problems with SRAM front derailleur than shimano in the mechanical variant? Force front derailleur with red 22 shifters seems to frequently not want to shift up into big chain ring when over 350w (and yes I lower power in the instant to attempt to get a smooth shift). Yes, the YAW is set properly. Never had this issue with 105 front d.
105 mechanical is lighter than Di2, plus 105 di2 is disc brake only- darn near impossible to achieve, if at all, even if you were investing Dura Ace level money. 105 di2 bikes weigh as much as many Sora level bikes.
@@terbennett Giant claim weight of 7.8 on new TCR 105 di2 and 8.4 on new Propel advanced with Sram rival. Not bad if correct.
Sram Rival AXS bikes weigh in the Shimano Sora range fir a comparable frameset. Amazing how people are willing to drop boatloads of cash on a boat anchor of a bike with constantly noisy and unneeded disc brakes, and often inaccessible internal cabling simply for electronic shifting and disc brakes that in 99% of road or gravel riding is completely unnecessary.. 😀
My everyday use racer has Claris 8 speed 50/34 and 11/34. Can't fault it. What benifits do I really get with a high end groupset? Apart from spending multiple times more then my bike cost.
Couldn’t agree more for most day to day rides and I even some racing. The nice thing about Low end stuff is it just seems to need less maintenance and just keeps going. I have an 8 speed Sora and it’s been chugging away for years.
Agree with most of what you said there. I think 105 11 speed mechanical provides such good shifting and braking that I don't see a need for me personally to get a better groupset.Ultegra mechanical is a bit lighter but then there's those problems with the R8000 chainsets delaminating that are now common knowledge.Although I could easily afford any bicycle out there and do plenty of riding I firmly believe that happy cycling should represent value for money and should be a relatively affordable hobby. I have a dozen 8,9,10 and 11 speed bikes all maintained and running like new. The two most expensive ones cost me less than £1500. One point that I don't think you mentioned was the cost and availability of spares for older DI 2 groupsets. I believe it's now quite difficult to get hold of spares for the earlier Ultegra 6870 DI2 groupset.I'm not sure that later versions are cross compatible either so you could be stuck with a bike with a one speed transmission. If I were to buy another new bike now it would be a road bike with 105 or Ultegra 11 speed mechanical.The main attraction for a new bike would be big tire clearances and hydraulic discs as I don't currently own a road bike which has either of these features.
Excellent comment and yes the di2 is not compatible with any other version. So if parts run out you have a very expensive paperweight. And that’s just what they want… people like me who ride 15 year old group sets are hated by the cycling industry. With electric gearing they can have the lifetime of the product much shorter. It will be like people who “upgrade” their phones every year.
If you want an "affordable hobby", why do you own a dozen bikes?
Because 9 of them cost next to nothing and I've been cycling for 50 years.
How many kilometers have you spend riding the new Ultegra (or any new electronic groupset)?
I do have couple things to point out.
The reason number one to get electronic groupset is shifting performance. That is superior to any mechanical groupset, and you dont have to adjust it almost ever.
The problem that you "can't" service it in case of major problem is true, but I don't know how many people have gear cable on there rides, and if you have major failure on mechanical groupset you are done as well (like the cage on 11s Sram Red RD, which would broke off every 15-20k km - happend to me twice).
It is not common to get the same gear range on 8, 10, 11, 12 speed groupset. You have much bigger gear range now (currently running 10-33, which is great for hilly terrain).
The more "aero" benefit of mechanical is also non realistic. If you want the most aero setup you have to have everything routed completely internally, and that really does not work well with mechanical shifting. If you choose frame with external routing, the drag of those cables is way way bigger than any drag from FD or RD.
And yes you are right that the mechanical groupsets are lighter (and as a weight weenie it makes me angry a bit) it is really not correct to compare rim to disc version.
And finally I do have a heavier bike than I used to ride. My old racing road bike is almost 350g lighter with mechanical groupset and rim brakes, but even that my new bike is much much faster with electronic shifting and disc brakes.
Very little personal experience as a owner of a E-group but plenty of testing and riding other peoples stuff as part of my work.
Shifting is better. But how much better? Someone said it’s faster, but what are we talking about? 10th of a second? Enough to justify the price? I personally think not. Also it’s taking control away from the user, like the Di2 won’t let you cross-chain? Unless you mess with the settings, but what a pain if you have to keep plugging it in to a laptop to get the gears to do what you want. I find my mechanical group sets shift beautifully, but maybe because I’m a bike mechanic and very OCD. Ha ha It’s true that the cables need adjustment infrequently, but that’s normally 1/4 turn of a barrel adjuster. Is it any more hassle than having to charge your bike with a long tangled wire?
If you are doing long distance you would carry an extra set of cables. I have met some cyclists who ride across the world and they do just that. You can’t do the same with Di2. Unless you carry a new RD and laptop. 🤭
Gearing? My 8 speed gravel bike has a triple chain ring 50/39/30 and my cassette has 11-30. I can climb up walls with that. 🤭 on the flat I keep up with the road bikes and on the gravel hills I pass the MTB riders. 😎 when it comes to 11 Vs 12 it’s only 1 gear. It’s not the world of difference.
Aerodynamics. When I look at the data available the drag loss on cables is about 2 watts. I’m sure the drag on the e-setup is similar to only 2 watts.
You might find your rim brake climbing bike is more aero than your disc aero bike. Let me explain.
I was looking at data for a disc Giant TCR (climbing bike) Vs the new disc TREK Mad-One. (Same wheels) At 40kph the difference in watts was only 6 in favour of the Mad-one. Now we know for a fact that rim brakes are more aero than disc because they sit in the dirty air. According to more data I have read rim is anywhere from 3 to 5 watts faster than Disc as a result. Not only that but the rim bikes often used narrower tyres and they are also provably faster and more aero.
So this brings me to your belief that your new disc bike is faster…
I bet you it’s not. (With the same size and brand of wheels for example) How do I know? Simple, firstly all the data I have just shown. Secondly, your new bike is heavier, basic physics dictates that a heavier object will require more work in order to get from rest to a velocity. So in simple terms your heavier bike can’t possibly be “faster” in terms of Acceleration. So it will come second in a sprint.
Also, we know that heavier bikes are harder and slower on the climb, you will simply use more energy to push a heavier object up a hill. When things get hilly your new bike will also come second.
Finally if you look at the TDF, when 90% of the peloton was using disc aero bikes and only a few riders were sticking to rim… who kept winning all the grand tours? That’s right, first, second and often 3rd place went to a guy on a rim brake climbing bike. Now those teams are also on disc they lost their dominance.
A lot of this “my new disc aero bike is faster” stuff I hear from people is just in their heads. Just like this Idea that e-groups are worth it. It’s marketing.
Another reason Di2 is a bad idea I forgot to mention. Remember the pandemic, government crackdown on civil liberties? Now all cars are digital they can just switch them off and stop you traveling for whatever reason they want… make your bike reliant on the same technology and the moment they want to or when say the power goes out you can say goodbye to riding your new bike. Mechanical is freedom. ✊🏻😅
Great comment! Safe riding to you!
@@reginaldscot165 Hey good response, 👍 but I do have to disagree with certain statements. 😁 You should definitely put an electronic groupset on your bike and test it out, at least for a couple thousand kilometers.
I do agree that the shifting benefits of Di2 might not be big enough to justify the price for someone, but I would still prefer electronic over mechanical shifting (the thing I love to most is the limit setings on the FD and automatic adjustments to the gear on RD). Shifting speed? It is slightly faster, but dont really care about that much... It is true, that you need another device to change the initial settings (if you are OK with factory settings, you don't need anything), but you might just use one everyone has in a pocket. It is called mobilephone.
With riding across the world, I would probably also stick with the mechanical groupset. 🙂 But with any race sub 1000 miles, I would go with electronic all the way... (On 24 hour races
You would like triple chainring on your road bike? What about the weight penalty of the 3x chainset 😁 I do prefer 1x setup on gravel and CX. Not that good regarding the gearing spacing, but way lighter, easier for cleaning after race/ride etc...
The drag of cables is roughly 1,5-4W (Canyon stated that it was 3W in their study). As far as I'm concerned, that is not much, but it is way more than if you compare just the electronic and mechanical FD and RD (If I just calculate from cross section area you would be lower than 0,4W, not mentioning the "dirty" air around RD/FD). I would not mention it at all, since it is quite insignificant, but you stated, that the mechanical groupset is more efficent aerodynamicly, which is just not the case in real world.
Generally speaking disc brakes on road bikes are by itself less aero than rim brakes. No arguing about that. But disc brakes allow you to better shape rims and frames, which can easily balance that in favor of disc brake bikes. Not even talking about the major thing, which is better braking performance ---> faster downhills, more control in cornering etc. (Tell Matej Mohoric, that is not true) 😂
Lighter bikes are faster. Right, but how much? For rider like me on a 10km 6% climb (riding on an FTP power) it is calculated diffrence of roughly 4-5 seconds compared with the absolutly same scenario with just 300g hevier bike (bit less when I was in top shape). If I don't take in the account any other possible benefits of modern bike I can do more than this difference in the downhill...
Also with disc brakes I don't have to change my rims every couple of seasons, because they are grinded through.
I also do agree, that if you are elite climber, or racing hill climbing TTs etc., you should go with rim brakes. But most stages during 2022 season on TFD, Vuelta, Giro, all the spring classics, WC etc. were won with disc brake bikes. That is just a fact.
With all the parts shortage, it is difficult to maintain anything. Guess it is easier in big markets like here in Europe, but still problematic. The fun thing that the biggest problem I had during pandemic to get parts for my old 3*9 fully mechanical MTB, but that is just bad luck I guess....
All the best! 🙂
Electronic's groups are heavy expensive elitist and absolutly non convivial, not exactly what à bike is supposer to be.I totale agrée with Reginald!
@@jean-paullanglois5452I think shifting in general is elitist 😂 Hope you are running singlespeed 😂 BTW 105 Di2 or Rival AXS are cheaper than several mechanical groupsets…
@@marekvag running chorus 10 speed.
This video definitely received some hate from people who need to justify their excessive spending, those who are not very good at maintaining their bikes, and, which is also true, those who simply prefer electronic shifting because it works better for them 😎.
Here's another point (or a conspiracy theory :)) from me: leading manufacturers heavily market and push electronic group-sets to customers because they are easier and cheaper to make, but can be sold for almost double the price. Efficient and precise servomotors have been readily available for years and can be outsourced, as can batteries. Most of the tiny, complicated mechanical components in the levers and derailleurs (except for brakes), cables, and housings are unnecessary and can be eliminated, which eventually reduces the load on the supply chain and manufacturing processes. It's like comparing fine mechanical watches to cheap electronic watches. In most cases, quartz watches are more precise and require less maintenance, but that doesn't mean they should be more expensive. Using the same watch analogy, I think, electronic groups will eventually replace mechanical on most of the bikes (even supermarket ones) and mechanical will be only available for a premium price for the fancy purist like us 😂...
Also, in my opinion, electronic groupsets should be banned from pro peloton because riders use stored battery energy to assist with shifting and algorithms to assist with brain fog, as many have mentioned :). This goes against the whole idea of pure cycling and using only mechanical power transfer. I'm not against technology in cycling but the engineering and material improvements don't always need motors and batteries. However, this will likely never happen as the UCI is more concerned about sock length and obviously is heavily sugared by Shimano and SRAM.
The watch analogy is an excellent one. 👍🏻 Just like carbon frames, the cycling industry has found a way to sell a cheaply made product at a much higher price.
Fantastic comment. 👍🏻
Thank you Reginald! I am always entertained by your videos and your pragmatic and sarcastic reasoning! By the way, I'm commenting because I have three bikes and all three are build with Dura Ace, two mechanical and one DI2! Lucky me:)!
Very lucky indeed! All the best! ❤️
Whats value for money groupset that is reliable but also good for climbings? I need 46/31 or 46/33 if they offer that in mechanical.
Rival or 105 are excellent. For Rival you can even get 1X set up. And Some Chinese group set’s are not half bad to be honest. Not 100% sure on RD cage options.
I bought the R8100 groupset because I want motor shifting and mechanical braking. _Ultegra is the cheapest Shimano DI2 groupset which offers the option to non-hydro braking._
I would prefer rim brakes on my bike with 42 mm tyres and mudguards but the frameset I chose is of course for disc brakes. So I use Paul Klampers with the Ultegra group. And I also switched the crankset with a Rene Herse crank for smaller gears. Also I don't trust Shimano cranks.
42mm tyres? I have never seen an MTB with Ultegra before! 😉
@reginaldscot165 It seems that I'm defying the categories. Randonneur is still the best fitting category but there are no production randonneur bikes anyways. So I'm stuck with a custom bike from a constructeur or a custom build from a frameset by myself. Since I was a roadie before I still use road components.
12 speed cassette. I still remember when it was not recommended to run the chain on the large chain ring with the large rear cog on a 6 spd. freewheel.
That was a few years ago. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165l am curious , do you think 12 cogs doesn't contribute to noise, chain wear and reduced smoothness in the drivetrain?
Actually there are quite some advantages to the electronic shifting. While you might not consider them relevant or worth the additional cost those still exist and should be metioned. 1. Faster Shifting (which *will be relevant in races), 2. Ability to use more than one shifter (especially useful on TT bike e.g.), (which will be relevant again) 3. actually EASIER to maintain. e.g. swapping a RD is a 2 min job on the DI2 (even if procurement of parts may in some cases be harder) 4. in most cases easier to install 5. allows automatic avoidance of cross chaining and allowas syncro shifting. 6. What you implicitly already mentioned allows gowing narrower and having more gears.. 12, 13, 14... 7. unless you crash absolutely no reason you ever would have to readjust the gears or reainstall a cable. 8. actually the DI2 is lighter compared apples to apples 11spd vs. 11spd. So yes, the 12 spd ultegra is 12 grams heavier than the 11 speed mechanical, but this will most probably be due to the fact it has an additional cog and not due to to it being electronical (which adds two stepmotors and a battery but removes steel shifting cables and housings).
Interesting comment, I don’t really agree or count any of this as a tangible benefit, however even if they were for me it would come back to my original points… that being:
The vastly increased cost doesn’t justify the small benefit. (If any)
The danger of being trapped into technology where the manufacturer has you by the balls forever is not worth the benefits.
The technology is heavier and less aerodynamic than older technology and thus there is no race advantage in reality of having slightly faster shifting? (Slightly being tenths of a second)
But I enjoyed reading your comment anyway and thank you for your input. 🙂🙏🏻
@@reginaldscot165 the question if these advantages are "worth the money" is subjective, thats what I meant with you might not consider those relevant. It is not relevant saving 5g on a titanium bolt (and paying EUR 5 for it) for a lot of people either. But I can still see the point in doing it, even if you will most likely never actually realize the benefit. About the weigtht penalty of the DI2 I don't think it actually exists though. The 12 SPD DI2 is 20g heavier according to data I found, that is correct, but when you compare the 11 spd variants the DI2 is even lighter so boils down to 12 speed being heavier than 11 speed, due to one cog more on the cassette. So if you dont want/need 12 speed, fair point, you can save the weight. but if there would ever be a 12 spd mechanical, it will probably not be any lighter. BTW. another advantage of the DI2- you can make the RD cage smaller as you dont ever need the ability to use "small-small" (I an not sure about the Ultegra but the XT does actually only come in "GS" instead of SGS) and so you additionally have a shorter chain, which again is advantageous. Those might all be small advantages but this is how technological evolution works, incrementally step by step, you cant deny it. Not everything is relevant or interesting for everyone or by far not worth the money for everyone - but eventually you don't want the old technology from 30year ago anymore. You would not run a bike with downtube shifters either today. At least not compitetively or as a daily driver, stating it is a nice ride experience.
Hi, I watched video and respect your opinion but mine point of view is totally different than yours.
First off all, I'm from Poland, currently I have few bikes, I have aero road bike, I have endurance road bike, I have gravel, hardtail MTB and full MTB... I'm a bike freak who loves riding and loves bikes. And right now I'm completing Ultegra Di2 8100 stuff to replace my mechanical Ultegra 8000 in aero bike. Question why? Because I always dream about Di2 in a road bike. I know that this will not change anything for my ride. But I would like to have it. Why Ultegra? Because I don't have enough money for DuraAce and according to my observation, Ultegra is stronger and will not wear out that fast than DuraAce (at least it was a case for 8000/9100 series). And I'm just causal guy who ride ~7000km on road during a year (most using endurance bike). So why not 105 Di2? Because I never dreamed about 105 Di2... and this upgrade is only to fulfill my dreams. Like I said, I'm a bicycle freak. And in endurance bike still mechanical R8000 remain.
The same I have with cars, I love sports car. But I'm not able to buy a Porsche, as it is to expensive, so in my garage there is Honda Civic Type R from 2019... I could buy for example Ford Fiesta ST then Honda (which is cheaper and also really nice hot hatch) but I never dreamed about Fiesta. And of course this Civic is only a weekend car, we have also big estate car, and small car for city.
So according to above, Ultegra Di2 is worst choice for you but the best choice for people like me :)
Best Regards!
You haven’t really explained why it’s the “best choice for you” other than “you dreamed about it” and “you wanted it.”
But if you are happy then I good for you and I hope you enjoy it. 👍🏻
All the best!
@@reginaldscot165 I think you are looking for complexity when it is not there. This nice chap just wants the latest toy on one of his bikes. Simple. Its a treat that he can afford. I respect that. I cannot even afford a Civic Type R so my aspirations are a Cinelli Dynamo handlebars that will give more usability to me. As for missing more explanation well its probably understood that he has faith that it will be the bee's knees! Remember Reginald that anytime there is something new out, everyone only hears good things and only later will any complaints come. Verdict still out there
Well, I am 64, been riding since I was 14yrs old. As a lifelong athlete, anything I can do to stay fast, I do. Also, with arthritis in my hands (especially my shifting hand), this helps a lot. I do agree that the price tradeoff is not there...at all. Its obscene what we are being charged for this stuff, but I do not care, I'm pretty wealthy. But with Shimano's rapid product phasing this type of runaway expense is going to be a "barrier to entry" for young cyclists. As far as the functionality is concerned, its pretty amazing especially in the semi-automatic mode. I really like how it automatically shifts you back to your spin pace when you drop to the lower gear ring. It creates a seamless shift when climbing. Overall the shifts are much smoother, require less effort and do not require the mental/physical energy deep into a long hard ride when fatigue sets in and your prone to "chunk" a shift. There is one item that really bugs me on the 12spd setup. This could be an adjustment phase I will go through, but I am getting the sense that its a struggle to find the optimum gear and this setup will require more shifting then you may be used to. Conversely, even with 12 gears, it gets messy right in the middle range of the cassette and I seem to have to push a higher gear at times than I want to because the right pace/gear seems to always be in a slight cross-chain situation. To straighten the cassette/gear ring relationship I end up in to high or low of a gear. I am using the 11/30 gear ring as I write this. So, my initial evaluation is this, the creature comforts are nice, but where it counts most Di2 12spd is a flop in my mind. My 11spd Ultegra bike with a 11/30 Cassette is simply better. I agree with Regi that my 2006 Litespeed Ultimate with a 10spd powertrain is simply perfect compared to the newer stuff. However, being that the legs are not what they used to be, I opt for the tradeoff of more climbing ability.
Great comment! Reminds me of a song: “Will you still need me, will you still feed me
When I'm sixty-four…” Sorry, I’m a big The Beatles fan.
So basically you are the right Democratic for Di2 in my opinion, you are benefiting from the extra help on the gears and having some bigger gears helps you up the hills. 🙂👍🏻
Happy cycling. 🙏🏻
@@reginaldscot165 Do you mean Demographic? 😂
😂That's it I subscribed your the man Reginald Scot
Thanks man, I truly appreciate it! Don’t forget to click the bell 🔔 😘
Triathlon setup is another good use for the electronic shifting. Shift at the hoods or on the tri bars
That’s about the only benefit I can see.
Cyclist for much of my 62 years on this earth. Got me a new Trek Domane SL7 at a great discount and replete with Ultegra Di2 12 Speed. Love it, helps me enormously with my arthritis, don’t mind the price as packaged with the bike, gearing is superb, fast and fun, easy to fine tune using the electronic adjustment, agree that weight compared to mechanical is not great, good tip re SRAM Red. Bike manufacturers and retailers are still to inflexible re. pick n mix components with frame - I’d have gone with a frame upgrade and a groupset downgrade to SRAM Rival Etap.
Think my IQ is good enough to confidently choose between groupset options. Have the money for Durs Ace or Red but don’t see the point tbh - 105 Di2 or Rival perfectly suitable for most except the pros.
Respect your thoughts and experience Reginald but please exercise a bit of empathy and avoid labelling people dumb on the basis of a groupset purchase
Thanks for the comment. 🙂 As I have mentioned if you are disabled (arthritis is included in that) then Di2 makes sense. But Ultegra for the price is just a poor choice no matter how you look at it. I feel sorry for the people that made that choice but hopefully being harsh will prevent more people from making the same mistake. The dangers of Di2 for the future of cycling and humanity are real in my opinion. You will probably stop cycling when it happens but the next generations are going to be condemned to some terrible hardships as a result of choosing electronic gears.
At 62 I’d have spent that considerable money on a custom Ti bike or at the very least a steel frame. TREK bikes are notoriously heavy even in carbon and as I get older (I am 38) I see the value In better ride quality. The other nice thing about Ti and steel is the bike I have now I will hopefully be still riding when I’m 62. 😉
Just a different perspective for you. Thank you for watching and safe riding. 👍🏻❤️
Di2 shifters are so much cheaper to manufacture compared to mechanical. Step motors in mechs are comparable to mechanical in terms of cost. But they can charge more because of patents.
The markup must be massive!
bingo, you nailed it. cheaper to manufacture and higher price point. smaller supply chain. and we the consumer suffer the consequences
I replaced an ultegra 6800 gear set with an 8000 mechanical set, with extended cage and 11-34 cassette. and upgraded the front brakes to 8000 rear brakes to 105 7000's (I had them lying around...). its cute to ride Di2 as I have one of those as well on an older S Works with Dura Ace. But I agree, bikes are mechanical things and why be dependent on batteries for everything in life. sadly we're all forced into this by heavy push marketing followed by nobody offering mechanical bikes anymore. even rim brakes except for rain, work rather well. and all you need to worry about are brake shoes from time to time. its crazy!!!!
and now bluetooth shifting is even more nuts.
Yes we are not being given the choice.
I have mechanical on my mountain bike and electronic on my two road bikes, one is SRAM Red Etap 11 speed and the other DuraAce DI2 12 speed. I ride 200 to 350km a week so don't consider myself lazy. I could live with either, but do appreciate the sweetness of the electronic front derailleur shift, I also use semi synchro on the DI2. On the SRAM, I love the logic of the two paddle shifters. It may not have semi synchro, but both paddles click with three clicks on left or right paddle and job done, I can do this super fast. The other thing I don't hear which I pretty much hear on all my friends mechanical is clicking and clacking gears somewhere.
My mountain bike is perfect, new cables, serviced plus I know how to adjust gears, it is smooth as. I would never go electric in my mountain bike, I figure if I bend something, easy to fix. And yes I don't find it at all inconvenient to use the clickers.
So I don't know, whatever pushes your buttons I guess, but for reasons I cannot explain, I love my electric gears.
If you get mechanical dialled in just right yes it can be as smooth as silk. 🙂 It’s also very reliable and cheaper as you mentioned. I have a customer in with SRAM AXS 12 speed at the moment. He left the bike in storage for a few months and after replacing the shifter batteries and charging the derailleur batteries and pairing the shifters… the FD still doesn’t work. It’s developed an error and just flashes yellow. It needs sending back to the manufacturer. The bike is less than a year old. This is my objection to the “technology improvements.” 😐
As a cyclist, I agree with you 100%. I ride a mechanical shifting 3 x 8 speed that is very easy and inexpensive to maintain, which in my opinion is practical.
Cool 😎 👍🏻
I loved my last di2 11-speed as it never failed after 10s of thousands of shifts. The current 12-speed Ultegra di2 group set is looking to be just as good as the last. No problems here. I love the SRAM Red on my recumbent just as much. Electronic shifting has fully matured and makes bike riding way more fun and reliable than mechanical hardware.
It’s not more reliable than mechanical. Yes you need to adjust it less. But when things get extreme or time passes by… electronic fails. And I can’t possibly think how it can make cycling more fun? Some of the most fun on a bike I’ve had is on an old 8 speed sora bike I have that doesn’t even shift well. 🤷🏻♂️😁
2:01 Spot on! I'm with wires and rim brakes as long as they will be available... Later on, I'll open my own factory and start selling them myself! :D (Even if it's only me in need of using them. LOL)
Oh please do, I think there will always be demand for good quality mechanical stuff! ❤️
I have 11sp mechanical ultegra and it shifts just fine. The one thing i admire about electronic is two less cables out front. But i'm not paying thousands for that.
Yeah, the cables don’t really bother me because I ride traditional looking bikes. But I totally agree, unless your bike is so modern you literally can’t fit cables, then Di2 12 is simply unnecessary cost wise.
@@reginaldscot165 I'm pretty sure that bad cable guiding is not modern, since there are plenty of precedence for that earlier. Just call it what it is: retarded design.
Tbh it’s the market forcing the new products.. just like disc brakes. I always loved rim brakes, just cos I have replace parts myself(and lighter)
Rim wheels and traditional bikes choices are getting more limited. Some point in the future eventually shimano 105,Ultegra, and Dur will be all DI2. It’s a shame really, but if market went 50/50 giving consumers a choice at least buy companies will advertise “these” are better 🙄 bags of 💰💰💰 please
I couldn’t agree more 👍🏻
Electronic shifting is game changer mate!
For the company, yeah. “It’s A Great way to extract more money from gullible people. 😘
@@reginaldscot165 Gullible?
Harder to maintain?! What maintenance do you need to do on Di2? Clean it?
Maintain as in keep it running.
For example: if you damage your RD not only will it be harder to get a new one, but you can’t just take parts from another one to fix yours because it’s coded! Also with a normal mechanical RD it’s cross compatible with any other 11 speed shimano RD. But if you have Di2 Ultegra it’s only compatible with its own model and gen of that group set. So if that group set is out of production you are totally screwed.
@@reginaldscot165 not to be pedantic but that's technically "harder to repair yourself". If you plan to keep a group set for a decade I wouldn't buy Di2 personally, but even then you can still get Di2 6800 parts if you look around and that was released in 2014. You can now get 7kg retail bikes with Ultegra Di2, weight aspect pretty much a non-issue for most people. If you are buying a standalone groupset, is it sensible to then buy Ultegra Di2 over 105 Di2 in 2023? Not really. I have 2 bikes with Di2 and can't say I've had any issues at all. The cost is too high, but you could just say that and be done with it. Wouldn't make a good video though.
I love mechanical gears. I hate trying to maintain them and keep them aligned. Poor shifting makes me hate riding my bike. However good a mechanical groupset is, it will always need adjustment to continue shifting smoothly. I don't care about shifting speed at all, but as a person who's jealous of my time, I do care about reducing the amount of time I spend adjusting my gears and increasing the amount of time I actually get to spend riding. Di2 solves that problem.
Humm, I have 4 mechanical bikes and I spend almost no time adjusting gears. Perhaps it has to do with me being a good mechanic and knowing how to set them up in the first place. And if they do need adjustment it normally only takes a half turn of the barrel adjuster… something I can do when washing the bike, a job I do every week anyway. So for me I don’t see this as being a valid argument. But I will admit you are technically correct, I do lose maybe 1 to 2 minutes per year adjusting my gears.
Still ride with Shimano 105 mechanical 10 speed cassette never had a problem.
Great 👍🏻
Reginald, thank you very much for your amazing and unbiased contributions to cycling - it's so important in this age of sponsors and corporate sugar-coating channels and whatnot. I'm just at the stage where I'm considering switching to a new groupset, and you've effectively dissuaded me from going the electronic route. It was already bothering me that these things aren't light (I'm trying to make my 2020 Defy as light as possible), and you've really helped steer me away from it. Think I'm gonna give the mechanical Force or Ultegra a go!
I’m glad I could save you money and hassle further down the road. 🙏🏻🙂
Danny, the defy is great with Di2 though.. It's epic!!!!
Any reason why nobody mentions Campagnolo? As far as I can see still offer mechanical and rim up to super record. Campag now very affordable vs Shimano. I’m biased but I think they’re over looked because Shimano control so many TH-cam channels amongst other things.
Re Tard
11 speed shifted night and day better than any 10 speed groups
I’ve only had minimal exposure to 12 speed and it shifted beautifully
my r8070 group is amazing
Spent years racing on 9000
Owned a 6800 backup bike which was also beautiful
I promise that extra gear really smoothens out the middle of the cassette which is where you’ll spend most of the time
Then you haven’t tried my Ultegra 6600.
@@reginaldscot165 I’ve been riding for two decades, worked at a bike shop as a mechanic and group ride leader for a decade, crit raced for a few years. I’ve ridden everything under the sun and there’s no denying that technology has massively improved over the years. Any disconnect from that reality is just delusion.
@@reginaldscot165 I did. And never touched any Shi.mano anymore.
How can you call anyone who’s riding a bike lazy ? 😂
What about an electric bike? 🤭
I like my 2x11 hardtail mountain bike. When I go to a 29er in the future a 11-28 12 speed will give me the same starting gear as my 11-25 on my current 26 inch wheel bike and the same ratios in between with a higher top gear with the bigger wheel. Ultegra 11-28 cassette 12 speed cassette when they become available and a SRAM rival or force rear derailleur with a 12 speed eagle shifter and 12 speed XTR chain with my XTR 30 44 10 speed crankset is going to be epic.
I’m sorry I don’t speak MTB. It’s all totally over my head. 🤭
Thanks for the comment anyway. 🙏🏻 Safe riding.
Well.. Di2 ult is quality and beats any mechanical.
I have both!!
In what respect? 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 when shifting under pressure it's easier and more efficient. When on a technical climb or descent mechanical doesn't always react to your demand when di2 does.
I have two mechanical groupsets and they are great but they still do not perform as well as Di2. It's a luxury to have as any groupset that works is good enough, Di2 is just a bonus.
I have mechanical Super Record 12 (Vamoots RSL), mechanical Force Hydro 1X11 (Cannondale SuperX) and ETAP hydro (Storck Aernario). ETAP (Rotor crankset) is very good - the shifting is very intuitive. The lack of cabling cleans up the look of the bike. So I would recommend it. However the Super Record 12 feels fantastic and the levers are much more nicer to hold. And there is nothing wrong with the mechanical Force either. No issues or worries with charging batteries. I have not adjusted (save for different wheelsets) the derailleurs on either mechanical setup in 15,000 kms of riding. The Vamoots (without any crazy THM Carbones components or similar) weighs 7KGs with pedals and powermeter.
Discs are heavier, wheel changes are slower, the discs add friction and noise on damp rides. And I cannot find any difference in braking power albeit they are harder to set-up properly.
Good Observations. Thank you for your interesting comment. 🙏🏻🙂
I think nobody NEEDS electronic group sets at all, but that doesn’t mean that the shift performance and feel of them is not appealing to us cyclists.
Electronic groupsets are like carbon wheels, no amateur/recreational rider needs them and there is no way to objectively make the cost make sense. However, bike buying is not a strictly logical exercise. I love my eTap aero bike because I have fun on it and it makes me feel fast and for some brief moments I feel like the pros.
I also own a fixie I love because it’s cheap, bulletproof, infinitely reliable and extremely fun a lot of the time.
My good quality DT Swiss aluminium wheels are heavier and more expensive than my Winspace carbon wheels… di2 is about $2000 more expensive than my mechanical group set.
There is a big difference. Also, carbon wheels have advantages in weight and aerodynamics. Di2 is heavier and less aero than what I currently have. 🙃
If you think nobody NEEDS them, you never noticed how different people are. In fact, considering how weak and fragile we are, huge differences in one species is our race success factor.
Hey this is me. Except I have 11s di2 ultegra. I got sick of dealing with cables. They stretch and Frey. I always wait too long to change them. However, I recently crashed and stripped a gear in my rear di2 derailleur. Trashing it 😢. That was expensive. If it was mechanical maybe the cable would have slipped. I have to say di2 shifting is really nice.
Yup. 👍🏻
I do not know what electronic groupsets did to your soul but i am really sorry to see such a traumatized boy :( My eTap is awesome and i never will go back had a Ultegra before and the smooth feeling of shifting an electronic groupset is unmatched.
Maybe it’s smooth, but at what cost. You are also comparing a mid range group with a high end group… and if you set up a shimano mechanical group well their is nothing smoother… (professional opinion only.)
With my 11 spd I find there's a gap where I could use an extra cog. Besides that I don't have a wide range with 11 28 when I ride hills. But it's good enough.
I guess it depends on the kind of cycling you do and personal experience. Personally I’ve never had a problem with only 10 gears. 🤭
Lolol…opinions. We all have them. Sounds a bit retro-grouchy imho. I stop way short of insulting folks when they ask for my opinion or advice on component groups. But that’s just me. The decision when deciding between mechanical and electronic shifting is not a binary one. There are many other factors to take into account, not just if someone is “disabled.”
I disagree. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 That's totally cool! 😎
After I watched this, I subscribed...😁 make sense
Awesome 👏🏻 Thanks! 🙂
My Di2 Ultegra disc brake (2018 model) bike doesn´t weigh 9-10 kg, but about 8 (no, not lightweight). You can get one at 6.8 kg or lighter. Saying that a electronic/mechanical disc brake bike MUST be heavy is nonsene.
Is it heavier or lighter than rim brake mechanical? To get as light as rim mechanical do you need to spend more or less money?
I rest my case. 😝
That is not what I commented on or disagree to. I also have a bike with mechanical shifting, and I see a lot of advantages with that. But weight is not an advantage/disadvantage being a rider at a mediocre level at most will ever notice. My point was simply that a bike with electronic shifting and disc brakes doesn’t necessarily need to be heavy, and certainly not 9-10 kg. My bike with mechanical shifting is the one I use the most, and I am very satisfied with it, but I prefer electronic. Have never experienced any problems like running out of battery power or any other issue, and until then I will most likely prefer electronic shifting. Rim brakes on the other hand I will never, ever consider, but that is a totally different “discussion”. Really like your videos and and find them very informative. Keep up the good work.
Hi. So its all about bling. I hope your friend cannot lip read. I can't.
In competition, electromic could be an advantage in giving more positions to shift from say the hoods and the tribars.
Another consideration is that the indexing on electronic is at the gear whereas with mechanical its at the shifter.
Another thought is for really muddy rides, the mechanical can be predujiced by muck on the exposed cables (not so relevant for concealed cables).
Ha ha I’m not even sure he can read!
SO BRUTAL!!! And so true! The industry needs more honest men like you, Reg! But in a way it’s so very sad that so many fully formed adults crave the envy of their pack of mates in the pace line. They really do fall all over themselves justifying their expensive hobby. I suggest they buy a mech group set and spend the rest on a good therapist.
I do wish (honestly) we had something better in 1972 when I did my first bike road trip, 300 miles, with two friends, we were all of 15 years old. Not for me, but for my friend Mark who had his right arm amputated at the shoulder a few years prior (cancer). I was riding a horribly-geared Gitane, and Mark had a brand new Raleigh Competition (10 speeds). His wealthy grandfather paid someone to rig his left brake lever to operate front/rear, and I think they used stem-mounted Schwinn dual shift levers. A hardship, yes, but we had a great time. 25 years before the invention of the cell phone, I think our mothers were braver than we were. So yes, there is a place for electronic shifters.
Excellent points. Yes many “adults” today seem to act like children in their spending habits… they were clearly raised by TV advertisements rather than responsible parents. 🤔
Buddy, the auto trim function that eliminates cross-chain grinding and noise, that alone is enough to make Di2 worth it. Now, if you weren’t attacking the utility of electronic shifting as a whole, and just focusing on why the Ultegra Di2 is dumb compared to 105 or Dura Ace, I would agree with you. 105 Di2 is last year’s Ultegra, save the money and get the same functionality. If you have extra money to spend and really care about saving weigh, spend the extra couple bucks for the Dura Ace.
My SRAM RED mechanical group doesn’t have any trim function because they designed the FD not to need it. So that makes it better than Di2 then? 😂 Also all Shimano mechanical group sets have a trim function when set up correctly (granted some bike shops don’t know how to do this) and it works fine. Before I get to the top or bottom of my cassette a little tap on the lever prevents rubbing… and I didn’t need to pay an extra $1000 for it. 🤷🏻♂️
Exactly my point. With electronic shifting I don’t need to press extra buttons or make extra movements to trim. Along with the other luxuries Di2 provides, I like 105 Di2…. And if I don’t have the money, I’d use mech Ultegra…
Reginald I agree totally with your opinion on this topic.
The bicycle industry has gone crazy in the last few years.
Great video.All the best!
Much appreciated! Yes it does seem to have lost the idea of what cycling should be? Simple and reliable?
I disagree with most points ... I am not a pro and don't do races:
- Dura Ace old and new is a no-go for me, because they don't have 11-34 cassette and because I am not the youngest anymore, also like riding in the mountains and do long trips of 100-200km, 11-34 is my minimum requirement.
- 12 vs 11 speed: I don't need one more gear, agree, but the 12s 11-34 cassette has a much better distribution of the gears. Most cassettes try to have a linear (like 10%) step between gears but as power squares with speed a somewhat exponential distribution is much better. Range is the same, but old 11-34 highest gears were 11-13-15-17... and new 11-12-13-14-15. So new cassette has narrower steps on the heavier gears and bigger jumps on the lower gears which I consider as much, much better. Also the Campagnolo Ekar has got this nice non-linear distribution. At least for non-pros I would argue that this is the much more suitable setup.
- Mechanical Dura Ace is almost impossible to get in Germany and neither can you buy new bikes with old Dura Ace. So suggesting getting the old Dura Ace over new Ultegra is already difficult to do. Also consider spare parts in the future when it will become more and more difficult to get parts for older group sets than for newer group sets ... of course depends on how long you keep your bike but if you are arguing with price then I assume you keep your bikes for at least 10 years and spare parts do become an issue then.
- Ultegra DI2 has the buttons in the hoods to switch pages and operate your bike computer, the 105 DI2 hasn't. That feature alone I enjoy a lot.
- Electronic shifting: I heard this before that people assume maintenance with electronic shifting would be more difficult. But the point is with electronic shifting you don't need maintenance, there is not readjusting necessary and if it is, it is a matter of seconds to adjust it. Also seeing in which gear I am is an advantage to me and the synced shifting is a very nice feature as well. And it is much safer and quicker to look on the computer than looking down on your cassette to figure out in which gear I am.
In general riding my bike is for fun and a hobby. And I believe that people will ride more bike the more fun they have with their bike. For some people it might just be the color of their bike that motivates them, for some it is the look of carbon wheels, and electronic shifting is just another fun factor in my opinion.
So if I would buy a new bike today I wouldn't want anything else than the Shimano Ultegra DI2 12-speed, it is the perfect fun-factor for me.
I never liked Ultegra groups. For me it was just that I thought the color was stupid and did not match any painted bike. I first went electronic with SRAM Red eTap but it quickly made me miss the Chorus 11 speed group it replaced. The front never shifted correctly in the moments when I needed it to shift the most. When the SRAM rear derailleur quit shifting all together I bought Dura-Ace 11 speed. Like I said I hated the looks of Ultegra. 105 Di2 wasn't out yet so I have DA Di2 and that's where I'll stay for years to come. I don't have a need for 12 speed and never will. Good video and I agree with what you said.
Super! A great comment. Thank you.
You probably needed Red eTap properly installed, what is very easy. I've done some 70000km since 5 years on it, for last 2.5 years testing it even with ever lasting12S Eagle chain/Silca Synergetic oil, and it works fine, though slightly worse than with 11S KMC chains..
@@jazemkrzysio I've been wrenching bikes for four decades or more. I think I know how to install and adjust a front derailleur my friend.😉
I'm gonna defend electronic groupsets a bit. I used to run Dura-Ace 9100 mechanical, and in D.C./Maryland/Virginia it gets quite cold in the winter, -6° C or worse. When my hands gets numb, it's really hard to throw the lever, so sometimes I get stuck on whatever gear I'm on. I even almost wrecked because changing gears on a Shimano STI shifter with numb hands makes it easier to accidentally squeeze the lever, activating the brakes because the hands just aren't working the way they should. With Red AXS, it's basically a button which is much easier to engage or shift with cold hands. I'm a SRAM diehard now.
I like SRAM also, but still the mechanical. I use to ride in the UK in sub zero temperatures, sometimes in 2 sets of gloves! Must admit it can be tricky but with practice it’s no problem. Running a battery at that temperature is not good for them, they won’t hold charge well and you will significantly shorten the life. But if you can afford to replace them then it’s no issue. 🙂👍🏻
Safe riding! 🙏🏻
I have a humble Triban 3. With a triple 50 39 30 and 11 32 cassette. I ride for pleasure to stay fit. It's advantage is a large range. Also have GRX 400 with 11 36 cassette again range beats more up market alternatives.
Excellent 👍🏻
I don't have Di2 for financial reasons,if that wasn't an issue then I definitely would but anyway up until about ten years ago all I had was bike shaped objects and I had one called a Rampage which cast £60 so my current Sorra gravel bike and 105 road bike feel luxury,it's all relative.
That’s very true, yes 105 is awesome!
The biggest benefit in my opinion is for racing and using well placed satellite shifters for sprinting. Indexing is also unnecessary so less tweaking to do generally once set up.
For non-racers I completely agree though.
SRAM red mechanical is index free and doesn’t limit what chainring/cassette combo I use unlike Di2. I will concede having more shifts with Di2 is of benefit, but you need to pay even more for that and does that small bonus outweigh the obvious performance/other drawbacks? That would be my question.
Ah the voice of reason. Never a popular road to take. Good on ya
Yes if you want to upset people and be hated speak the truth. 😅
I wouldn't recommend mechanical groupsets on internal cable bikes... I wouldn't recommend internal cable bikes either, but yeah, there is that!
🤭 agreed
I still have 11 speed 105 5800 and cannot see any reason to spend more other than getting different cassette ratios for different terrains. Too bad they do not sell replacement parts for 5800 anymore. :( Unless you a pro, you do not need Di2.
You can get parts online that will fit your 5800. So if you want a LC derailleur and a bigger cassette it’s totally possible. 🙂👍🏻
Love my Dura Ace 9200 Di2!
Great 👍🏻
This video makes a lot of sense. Agreed about the 12 spd. 10 is plenty. I bought a TCR with Ultegra Di2 and never thought much of it til now (I'm dumb in terms of being a novice casual cyclist 😄). I will say the electronic shifting is fun, and getting the 105 Di2 would have been a sensible choice in retrospect. I did realize that I was faster on my 10 spd as I could get to the 11T faster. Now, I rarely get there, and cross chaining seems more severe.
Excellent comment, I’m sure you are not Dumb, I just use this language for dramatic effect. 😘
Safe riding and all the best. 👍🏻
You could get to your 11T faster with fewer cogs because it was Shimano. Campag mechanical (at least Record and Super Record) lets you upshift up to 5 cogs with one stroke, and 3 down - much faster than any Shimano mechanical or electronic system. Huge advantage for sprinting or covering an attack in racing, not so much for casual riding, where one push per cog may actually be preferred.
@@carlmons I prefer SRAM RED to shimano shifting, but now I'm on the lookout for Campy Record/Super Record mech grouppo 11 speed.
This guy talks a lot of sense. I have a Specialized Tarmac SL2 with the original 10 speed ultegra. Rings, chains, cables, bb and even jockey wheels have been replaced, but the mechs, shifters and cranks Re original and working just fine.
That’s fantastic. 🙂👍🏻
Obviously the people who agree with this hasn't encountered stuck cables that affects shifting or permanent cable jam that ruins your entire ride. I've had so many problems with my 105 including not having strength to downshift such that di2 is a no brainer.
Like I say, if you are disabled then Di2 is a good option. 👍🏻
A well set up mechanical groupset won't be that problematic. One of my customers' bike is on Ultegra R8020 and the only problem the groupset had was a non-responsive rear derailleur because the cable nipple dislodged from the cradle inside the STI lever. This won't happen if the cable was clamped without any cable slack, which wasn't the case when his friend (also my customer) re-clamped it.
Mine never had any problems because one, only I worked on it and two, I set it up right.
Good comments. I can totally relate. Almost US$15,000 for a Trek Madone with SRAM RED AXS before taxes. Lol.
LOL Indeed!
I do not agree on all points. Just on some. And DI2 And SRAM AXS/ETAP are amazing and there have always been people who do not like new stuff, because it´s new.... Everyone must decide for themself. For beginners i especially agree, those systems are just too expensive... and complicated to maintain.
I don’t dislike anything because it’s new, I just did a video talking about the very new technology of TPU inner tubes. They are fantastic! Best cycling product made in my lifetime. But, they have many advantages for a very low price. Di2 have lots of disadvantages for a totally idiotic price. 😂
A lot of people accuse me of being anti-technology. (despite the fact I used to work in robotics!) but it’s just an insult used by people that feel offended by the fact i just pointed out they wasted their money. (People don’t like to hear the truth… it really upsets them.) They got hoodwinked by the marketing department of Shimano and they want everyone else to fall for the same trap so they don’t feel stupid. 🫣
Thank you for your comment! Safe riding! 🙏🏻
@@reginaldscot165 yes i´ve seen it and it was great advice!
Bikes are getting super expensive to buy and maintain. I see many posts on Facebook of people putting away disc brake bikes during winter, if you live in the UK that's basically 6+months every year. What's the point of buying a disc brake bike to use it in dry conditions only? Re maintenance, have you seen the price of Shimano rotors and pads? Crazy money at the moment!. Rant over, have a nice week!
Yes it also seems crazy to me as well!
Here where I live we don’t even have winter? But cyclists are buying disc bikes? I ask: “do you ride in the rain?” They say “no, if it’s raining I go on zwift.” So I say “why do you want disc brakes then?” And they reply. “Because everyone is buying disc bikes now…”
There are very few people who are capable of independent though nowadays. 😅
Disc brake are superior in the winter. Why would you put it away?
Extremely happy with my 12v ultegra di2 😍
At that price you would have to be ecstatic! 🤭
@@reginaldscot165 you are totally right, i recently bought a new bike and that was the only option available. I wanted to stay with Shimano
But fooks sake, Reginald. I can agree with you but the bike I want only comes in eletronic... no mechanical compatibility! Let's hope this trend doesn't continue.
Then id suggest the bike you want isn’t a particularly good option. 🤔
The only DI2 I have is on my TT bike. There are a number of advantages e.g modern complicated internal routing doesn't affect shifting performance & the ability to shift both in the extensions & in the base bar. I have not riden DI2 on a road bije, but presume these would be the same with the ability to shift in multiple positions with satellite shifters. Not really an issue for most riding but when racing a second or so saved can make a difference on effort when covering attacks or if attacking giving other riders a warning you are going to change gear doesn't help with the element of surprise.
Good point, my retort might be if you save a “second” because you have Di2… how many seconds are lost Vs mechanical because you have Di2?
Aerodynamics/weight?
🙂
@Reginald Scot Di2 is marginally more aero.
@Reginald Scot di2 is marginally more aero. Weight wise that is more of a disc thing than DI2 as with the 11spd there was little difference between Ultegra Mechanical & Ultegra DI2 or Dura-ace DI2 & Mechanical Dura-ace. Think Ultegra was something like 80g difference. I agree though that the extra tech isn't great on the ratio of cost vs Weight vs performance. The performance benefits of discs & di2 arent large enough incomparison to the cost increases. A few years ago you could buy a new bike under the UCI weight limit for probably about a 3rd of the modern equivalent bike that is likely well over the UCI limit. Look at Trek Emonda's the 2nd tier frame it weights more than my old base level version 1 Scott Foil 30 & the Emonda is a climbing bike.
Buying an electronic shifting system, made by anybody, is not on my list at all. I have no desire to own. It won't make me any faster. I only ride it when I installed it or serviced it on someone else's bike. Shifting faster won't make the bike faster. Your legs do that. As this trickles down to lower prices the manufactures will add one more feature....auto shifting. A computer will sense your speed and your pedal rpm and shift to the efficient gear you should be in. You will get no choices.
Yes, the loss of choice and control… welcome to life in 2023…
You are quite certain that the only reason people have different opinions from yours is that they know less than you do.
It's a common mistake made by young people.
I don’t remember saying that is the only reason people buy Di2? (Thanks for the complement by the way, I’m nearly 40) I think sometimes people have different perspective on priorities (that doesn’t make their perspective correct) and sometimes people are badly informed and sometimes, people are just a bit stupid and easy to mislead with marketing. But I don’t worry about older people as I imagine most of them are smart and wise enough not to buy Di2. It’s more a warning to the younger people with less money that they shouldn’t invest in this nonsense. 🙂
@@reginaldscot165 You have the thoughtfulness of someone half your age! :-) (and still quite young to me)
Your narrative is hyper-simplistic and you casually dismiss facts and experiences of other riders throughout these comments without really backing up your assertions.
You also seem to miss another reason for more cogs, which is increasing the gear ratio range. (SRAM does this better, IMO)
My bike's got 2 gears. The other one is on the other side of the hub. The anodized rim is pristine after 8100 miles with rim brake. Chains are $7!
Wonderful! 🙂
Laughed out loud so many times during this video. Some truths are really funny. I still think I'll go Ultra Di2 12 on my next bike, but in Rim brake. Current prices on Bike bug are $2200 AUD Di2 Rim and $2800 AUD disc. Loosing two cables cleans up the front end and makes it look much better.
Glad I made you laugh 😁👍🏻
You will not get from end to end in either direction on any mechanical 10 or 11 group faster than Ultegra Di2 12sp. Not sure where you are sourcing new mechanical Dura Ace or mechanical SRAM red 10 sp so the point of buying one over the other is mute. PS the mechanical groups you compare it to, were the knob head show off groups 3 to 7 years ago. As you have guessed I want the ‘look at me’ groupset. Yes it’s expensive but what now in the industry you like work in isn’t?
And how much faster is the shift done from top to bottom? 10th of a second? More? Have you tested it yourself and other riders? How often in a ride do you go from 28 to 11 or the other way? Is that the only advantage? Will that justify the cost? Just asking questions. 🙂
Also Campy group sets can drop the entire cassette in a single lever press if I remember correctly?
You can still buy the 11 speed group sets I mentioned and some 10 speed stuff is still floating around. I don’t say people should actively look for it, but if you have it or get it it’s not a bad option.
Yes the industry sucks. But their is a difference between the flashy group set of the past and of today. One was actually quite fantastic and the other is a joke played of people who A) are easily fooled by marketing or B) have more money than they know what to do with.
IMO. 😘
Great comment! Safe riding!
A LBS once told me that the Di2 makes the bike economical to run lol
Ha ha ha, they should do stand up with material like that! 😂
@2:34 😂 jolly good 👍
Not too much? 😅
@@reginaldscot165 Too much? Oh my, not enough!
Try a short shotgun mic close in, or closer in a cardio. lot of boominess in the audio.
👍🏻👌🏻
but the derailleurs make cool noises
Oh I didn’t think of that! Ok, forget everything I said then, the noise makes up for all the negatives. 😉👍🏻
Agree 100 percent, 50,000 kms fast riding 9100 with Yokozuna cables, SRAM XG mono lock cassettes and campy record 11 chains, 3200 kms nirvana per chain, no issues,and now 800 kms on di2 two Shimano dura ace chain drops (no limit and after a software update), marred 52 crankset, near fall, twisted chain, replaced, and a persistently overshooting 15t on downshifts despite all Shimano Canada tech advice to the store and in store checkup. Under load it is quieter but far less reliable than my mechanical…and the mechanical with Yokozuna cables is as….. fast? Now I do love the semi auto gear change but that is it.braking is weaker than my rim (on dry pavement) so despite having 160mm rotors and two store bleeds, my ENVE rims brake 30-40% shorter!!! Yes I bedded it I also bed my track car ceramic rotors.
Yikes! Some serious technical problems. Hope you get it all sorted out. Or get something that works for you. 🙂👍🏻
Im disabled and lazy so i love di2
(Im a para cyclist so i can say this)
More power to you, at least you have 2 good reasons to buy it. 👍🏻
I do not agree. I upgraded from 105 R7000 to Ultegra Di2 R8000. From my point of view, someone that never really bothered to learn how to adjust for perfect shifting with mechanical, Di2 is “simpler” I micro adjusted with the app when it was just installed and never had to do it again, always perfect shifting, quiet, and I love synchro shift. Also, I love the feel of the levers, for me, that adds value. Now, the difference between the new 12 speed Di2 105 and Ultegra12 groupsets is weight, 2 extra buttons, speed of front derailleur and I think better shifting under load. That might be enough for someone to justify the price. The extra gear would be nice to have on long and steep climbs, I tried the 11-34 11 speed cassette but the jumps felt weired to me, I kept my 11-32 and my 11-30, the new 11-34 12 speed cassette is the one thing that makes the new generation groupset more atractive to me. If I needed a new groupset now, I would only go to mechanical if I couldn’t afford electronic, but I might go with 105 Di2, I don’t know if I would miss the extra buttons because I do use them.
Ok 🙂