I used to work with a pro shimano mechanic. He says narrow wide chainrings have been around in large machinery for ages. This made it hard for bike companies to patent this as it already existed, and everyone could start making them. Id have to dig into this more, but makes sense!
Isn't the reason why these arrived on bikes so late the front derailleur? By their nature, NW rings don't work with a front derailleur. As soon as Sram had enough gear range to ditch the front derailleur, they put a narrow-wide on there.
Yes, narrow-wide concept is from 1978 patent, expired in 1998. That's why everyone can make their own NW chainrings without infringing SRAM patents (as long as they not fully copy their tooth profile)
He gives sram way too much credit here in a dangerous way I feel. Sram are very litigious and have a history of predatory IP practices when it comes to smaller brands. The messaging here serves to reinforce and enable that kind of behaviour on their part.
Was about to go panic check my bike to make sure the chain is lined up on the right teeth 😂 glad this system is dummy proof. Interesting video as always
Clutch Off can improve shifting and drivetrain efficiency compared to clutch on due to there being less tension on the chain which makes the derailleur move a little easier. So if you're not having any problems with chains dropping, clutch off is perfectly fine. On Shimano, you also have to service the clutch every so often.
This is the first I've heard of a clutch. Now I gotta go look at my bike lol. I was going to ask can you still shift with it on but it sounds like you can. It's crazy how much I've ridden and yet no nothing about my bike 🤦
i work on my bike all the time and i really like learning new things about working on my bike. thank you seth again for another great and informational video.
I once upgraded an old Stumpjumper from a 3x to a 1x drivetrain. Chain drop was chronic. The clutch didn't help, chain guides did nothing (some seemed to make the problem worse) but a cheap narrow wide chainring (same brand Seth was showing) cured the problem. To me, the narrow-wide based 1x and the dropper post are pretty important. One advantage of the 1x is that rear suspension design is no longer compromised by the need to locate a front derailer opening up new possibilities in suspension design. Every full squish I've had developed cracks in the rear suspension, and I believe that in every case it was due to compromises related to accommodating the derailer. It was hard for me to give up that front derailer. What convinced me to ditch it was the need for a better dropper lever. The left-hand shifter had to go at that point, no two ways about it. No regrets, I love the 1x.
Is 1x mostly an MTB/Gravel thing or is it also applicable to road bikes/commuters? Back when I was without motorized transport, I was actually considering either a front 3-ring only setup or a huge 9+ gear wide cassette single ring with relatively wide spacing in order to make my daily driver more useful than a 3x7 with stupid overlapping ratios. In fact, I mostly ran that bike with just the front 3, and for my 9+ wide setup I was considering a huge front ring (like 50+ teeth!) in order to get as much speed on downhill road portions as I could.
@@Drunken_Hamster For commuter/road bikes you don't have to fight with chain dropping , so I wouldn't go for 1x drive train as it gives you less flexibility, smaller gear range and has less durable components. For casual, not trained rider in this case I would go with 2x9 or 2x10, they are cheaper and give you greater gear range with less overlapping gears, more durable drive train, you have smaller sprocket for hill climbing and bigger for speed on flat road. 1x drive trains are very specialized thing, so they are good for one type of riding where you are pushing the limits but if you want universal bike I think 2x are best choice.
Great video Seth, and I can confirm this from experience! I did a 1x conversion on my 2008 Trek last summer, and I took the frame in to a bike shop to have them pull the cranks as I didn't have the right tool. When I told the mechanic what I was doing he said without a clutch derailleur I'd be dropping the chain constantly and it wouldn't be worth the effort. Of course he kindly tried to sell me one, which I equally kindly refused. I purchased a cheap narrow-wide chainring from Amazon (something like $11) and after nearly 100 miles of trails and riding, I have only dropped the chain one single time, and that was when stick got sucked into my drivetrain and knocked it off. Otherwise, smooth sailing! The NW chainring really does hold the chain in place incredibly well.
The only time my single speed chain came off is when I got run over by a drunk guy in the way to work. Luckily I was not hurt so I just called in and said if be late to work that night you can check my bike if you don't believe me. The drunk guy took off of course
@@madtownanglerI guess if you weren't hurt it'll be difficult. But if you *are*, go and report this kind of thing to the police. They can estimate how and where the vehicle got damaged. When the culprit inevitably brings in their car to get fixed, the workshop might report them. Sometimes workshops have police-provided lists of damaged areas on specific makes and models of cars to look out for.
I did a 1x9 conversion many years ago with a narrow wide ring and a non clutch x7. It dropped pretty regularly until I added a oneup chain guide. I'd get maybe 1 drop per ride on rocky technical terrain after that. But probably a clutch would have been a good upgrade.
I have a narrow wide chainring on my makeshift 1x11 Gravelbike. Although my chainline is messed up (needs to be a few mm more towards the inside) the chain never slips off the lowest gear.
I have the exact same experience. My cheap Decathlon E-MTB came with a stamped steel chain-ring that was still a narrow-wide and welded to the crank so not easily replaceable. I always had problems with the chain coming off, like several times every mile. I solved it with a front-derailleur-like chain-guide initially, but it always kept that unnerving sound of the chain wanting to come off every few hundred meters or so. Last summer I finally upgraded to a (still cheap) new set of cranks so I could change to a machined narrow-wide ring and I can finally run it without a chain-guide now. My chain hasn't come off at all for 6 months straight. I use a Shimano Alivio rear derailleur, so no clutch as well. Congrats on te 1 mil btw, very well deserved and way overdue!
I think this is one of the coolest videos I've watched on bicycles. Having run narrow-wide chainrings for the last few years I get why I've barely had a chain come off. Awesome!
I don't even have an MTB but I love this channel because of the quality of content and presentation. And I always learn cool stuff and this is another example. I'd heard of narrow/wide chainrings but had no idea what that meant and what a great explanation I received!
Beautiful story, but you are saying a small portion of it. Narrow-wide are ONLY available if we don't have gears up front, which means we have to have wider range on back. Which means we need very small and very big cogs on the back and potentially more of them, which means more lateral twist on the chain. Which leads to the real revolution: The big cog on the back - why the chain is not dropping that often from the 52 tooth cog, given we have insane lateral twist? That deserves a larger attention IMHO. (keep in mind, the rear cannot be narrow-wide :) )
Thanks for this. I went from a sorta entry level FS 2007 bike to a decent 2018 model and so many things had changed, I hadn't even considered this one. I went to check my bike while watching this, and the video answered questions that came up while doing so!
Seth I just want to say you’re an absolute titan in the MTB community. Love your content man. Im a fairly new rider myself and I’ve learned a lot about the sport with your various videos
I learned so much in this video! I've been wrenching on my bike for years and never realized the front chainring was narrow wide, and that the chain could only go one way. The chain must naturally fall into the right slots since I've never had trouble installing the chain. Thanks!
The way Seth presents the information is mesmerizing. Even though I knew all these details, it feels satisfying to watch. I wish school teachers were like this.
By far the most informative video on MTB tech out there. Need more "explained" series type vids from you Seth. Pinkbike needs to take note on the simplicity on how your videos details how MTB tech works from a real world perspective. I appreciate the more advanced posts PB has, but the simplicity in this video takes me back to my WLIW/PBS days (for the New Yorkers out there) when I was a kid. Love it.
Don't underplay your tests Seth. You ran a test and you presented the evidence with reasonable conclusions taken from what we all can see. Keep it up 👊🏼
A sample size of 1 run indicates absolutely nothing. Seth knows that which is why he is cautious in making blanket statements and conclusions. For a test to achieve a significant result, it has to be done multiple times - definitely much more than just once to eliminate flukes and generate a trend.
And... you did it again! Made me curious about something I didnt know I would be curious about and you had my attention, riveted, the whole video! You have a gift my friend!
Hi Seth, I’ve been subscribed to both of you channels for a few years now and have seen the majority of you videos. I’ve never left a comment before, but just wanted to say that I really appreciate and enjoy your content! Thanks for all you do for the cycling community!
Wow...this video is so enlightening! I've never had such a simple but comprehensive explanation. The gear manufacturers have never explained this so well! Thanks!
I greatly appreciate this explanation. I also really enjoy your videos. I'm an ex-mtb'er that wants to think I'll get back into it.. but with my situation, I don't see how... but one day! Just wanted to say thanks.. I'd always wondered what the narrow-wide thing was all about... great video with excellent visual demonstration. While you're saying you're not being scientific (enough?) I think you are. In fact, I've never seen Shimano or SRAM share their 'scientific' experiments... I always felt like they did what they did and we got what we got. So, I do appreciate real world experiments, they are the most important/realistic to me and 90% of people out there.
I've run several different narrow-wide rings, still dropping chains (with clutch mech). Eventually got wolftooth (couldn't get it in UK, so it had to be shipped from US). Had it for a few months, and haven't drpped the chain once. Even crashed quite hard, chain still on. Best 80 quid I've ever spent on my bike.
Great video, you have nailed it, the video and your description clearly shows how clutches, chains and chainrings work, thank you, before this I didn't really understand but now it looks so simple 😊
That stamped steel chain ring has ramps that are designed to not hold onto the chain , allowing shifts . We used to run single speed from chain rings with taller teeth . Worked well enough at the time
That's what I was thinking too. Chainrings designed for multiple front gears are going to be less secure, since by design they are meant to guide the chain off the side to the next chainring.
Another chain retention feature these typically have is longer teeth. Bc they don't need to shift off like a traditional ring does they can have significantly longer teeth that protrude through the chain meaning the chain has to move further away before it completely comes out of contact with the teeth
Thanks for this video, never gave it much thought but I have wondered about the chain ring. With all that said I do love my 2x drive train, I like being able to get a much lower gear with one click whenever I get to a sudden incline and then with one click back to the higher gear.
Seth, Long time watcher. One of the best videos I have seen from you. You gave so much clarity on something that so many, including myself, take for granted. Keep up the great work!
I just bought an upgrade a nice new mountain bike to an e-bike and was about to add links to my chain because of ho tight it felt until my buddy showed me my derailleur had a clutch. This video fully walked through how my new drive train works and was SUPER helpful! And I'm starting to think watching your videos is the reason I got into biking and dumped my car!
Me and my lads have preferred simple and light 1 x drivetrains on mtb for years now, narrow wides have made my riding so much more enjoyable. I can’t remember the last time I dropped a chain and that’s without a clutch derailleur.
I set up a Specalized Vado SL electric hybrid a few days ago and wondered why the chain popped off the chainring when shifting to the largest 4 cassette cogs. Turned out it had a "semi" narrow wide chainring. You could feel the difference in thickness of the teeth with your fingers but the chain would sit on it when it was out of sync (i.e. the narrow bit of chain would fit on the wider tooth). Moved the chain along 1 tooth and it worked perfectly again. Seems that for city bikes they want the advantages too but slimmed it down to reduce noise as the demands are not as high as mountain biking. Might be something to bare in mind when shopping for chainrings.
Very informative and entertaining! I of course ran into the term "narrow-wide chain ring", never thought about it, though. I was also part of the "the clutch does it all" crowd 😳 So I really did learn something today - funny enough, the video was published one day after I was left wondering why the chain would only connect properly on every second tooth to the chain ring on my new trail bike. 😂 Seth is just by far the most entertaining MTB YTer ever.
+1 for your anecdotal evidence. I have a gravel bike runnning a non-clutch rear derailleur. Had chain drops whenever I went underbiking, until I upgraded to an even cheaper chinese narrow wide chainring than what you have in this video, and I haven't dropped a chain since. I originally upgraded purely to get a smaller chainring, and only realised the anti-chain drop benefit of the chainring a few months later, on reflection.
This was great video explaining in depth your study on chain and narrow wide chain gears. For a person with no interest in cycling let along off road biking, this was indeed an engaging video and very easily under stood. Thanks for your time making this video.
Okay, who are you? I watched your limits-of-friction video where you brought up trigonometry, and today you're talking about number theory and narrow-wide non-primality. I don't normally have the maths part of my life overlap with the cycling videos part of my life, but i like it!
This is a contender for the best youtube video so far this year. A litlte, but not not much time-overhang, slow-motion and action-cam footage carefully used, Close-Ups whenever they are necessary - not just to mask a cut. Clear Audio, supportive soundtrack, clear pictures, with archive footage in obvious and not try-hard relation to the video's subject and some nice, subtle color light "brushstrokes" in the background and on the subject. Excellent effort. Maybe some exaggerated "chain noise"-foley would have been a nice, satirical addition to put an emphasis on the non-narrow-wide-chainring-adaption-problem and put a grin on some of the watchers' faces.
Never thought what actually is it about narrow wide chainrings. Underestimated this little innovation for sure. Thanks for great video, there is real life testing and good explanation.
Thank you very much. Wow I knew the narrow wide was a great design but now I know it's probably the best design. That video was so comprehensive and informative, once again thank you, I'm going to order a narrow wide for my son's bike now
I get a smile on my face every time I see the GT Ricochet on this channel. Such a good looking Dick's bike and one that I love to own! A great base bike to modify along the way!
definitely did the right thing putting a cheap narrow-wide on my old bike when i changed it from 3x8 to 1x8! it doesn't have a clutch because i'm still running the original derailleur and the bike is from 2003. i haven't had much of an issue dropping chains (we don't have a lot of rough terrain around here) and i've been going for clutch derailleurs to minimize chain slap -- never considered they could help prevent chain drops . . . but also didn't know what a narrow-wide was for! just figured it made sense because i knew the gaps in a chain alternate.
this is the example of a smart invention. cheap, easy to manufacture, effective, and doesn't even come with compromises in terms of weight, efficiency, etc.
i haven never ridden a narrow wide , thanks to this video i am re evaluating my decision to buy cheaper cranks on my conversion journey to 1x12 (from deore 3x9)
I had a a gt avalanche I put a narrow wide chain ring and I used the stock clutchless derailleur with an extender and a bigger cassette and it worked great never gave me issues
I have a 1990 diamondback ascent EX. i bought it because I saw your video with an ascent! the last owner made it a 1x and removed the front deraileur. my first mod was a narrow wide and it doesnt drop the chain anymore!
Such a simple product but has helped change Mountain biking for the better. Testing has shown that a narrow wide chainring is more effective than a clutched rear derailleur and is the best option if only one chain retention choice is available. With a clutched rear derailleur and a narrow wide chainring obviously the optimal choice for maximum chain retention. And I would imagine it's cheaper to remove both front chainrings and the front derailleur and put one narrow wide chainring on the cranks. Less things to go wrong and less weight. Considering cheap eBay cranks with a narrow wide chainring included are about thirty dollars delivered a bit of a no brainer well done SRAM.... 😎🇦🇺👍
I remember back in 2017 when I first tried going 1x (1x9 to be exact) using the 2nd chainring of my 3x crankset lol. I had to makeshift a chain holder using a rear reflector clamp and a small cut of garden hose. Even raced with it on a rainy day and super muddy trails. Then I finally committed to a narrow-wide the same year. Ran Alivio 1x9 for 6 years until Christmas last year when I finally upgraded to a Deore 1x12 using the same chainring Seth is using in this video.
Excellent video and explanation!!! Love how the tech was explained in layman's term. More of these type of videos please explaining why a particular tech on the bike was created.
Thanks for the advice when it comes to making reasonable upgrades to lower end bikes. Many of us can't afford something high end but would love the option to traverse just a bit more terrain with a little more ease and a little less trouble.
Geek on! This was very helpful. I would like my mind to wrap around all of these mechanical details and concepts like I would like my chain to wrap around the chainring. So I'm going to have to keep thinking about what you have presented. Since this is in regard to mountain bikes, I'll give you my mountain thanks. This holp me a heap!
Is it still 2x11, or did you have to lock out the front derailleur to make it a 1x? Part of me thinks that you couldn't shift the 2x with narrow-wide rings; another part thinks that it would be more difficult to shift but that the chain would ultimately skip into the right spot on the new ring.
Never dropped a chain with my AXS XX or the new XX SL. And i ride roots and rocks all day long, no smooth tracks where I ride! Absolutely incredible drivetrains.
A curious thing about the replica N/W rings back when SRAM first released them: The UK manufacturers were able to legally make copies without infringing the Patent thanks to the way UK Patent Law works. Someone found a previous patent filing from the Industrial Revolution that showed the same tech for a threshing machine. As there was proof that the technology had been available before the SRAM patent then the patent didn't stand up to scrutiny. SRAM fought it and lost!
Yes. 3 main inventions of cycling industry for last 15 years or so: dropper posts, proper 1x drivetrains, wider rims/tubeless tires (huge impact on comfort/traction/speed)
I'm excited it's just a step closer to Morganton. I wish we would build a bike park here. They are currently planning to add to our Greenway park trail system. We will have a 20 mile stretch when complete. I think a bike park would be a perfect edition to the trail system. Thank you for all your videos!
I used to work with a pro shimano mechanic. He says narrow wide chainrings have been around in large machinery for ages. This made it hard for bike companies to patent this as it already existed, and everyone could start making them.
Id have to dig into this more, but makes sense!
Isn't the reason why these arrived on bikes so late the front derailleur? By their nature, NW rings don't work with a front derailleur. As soon as Sram had enough gear range to ditch the front derailleur, they put a narrow-wide on there.
Yes, narrow-wide concept is from 1978 patent, expired in 1998. That's why everyone can make their own NW chainrings without infringing SRAM patents (as long as they not fully copy their tooth profile)
as well as bicycles with skip tooth. schwinn sweet tooth as a great example
He gives sram way too much credit here in a dangerous way I feel. Sram are very litigious and have a history of predatory IP practices when it comes to smaller brands. The messaging here serves to reinforce and enable that kind of behaviour on their part.
@@kailashblades I actually like SRAM stuff.. but the 2008 x7-9 stuff my Gary Fisher Paragon was equipped with is way better than the 2020 XCaliber 8
Was about to go panic check my bike to make sure the chain is lined up on the right teeth 😂 glad this system is dummy proof. Interesting video as always
haha, same here...but then I instantly learned something...
This is so interesting.
Also made me aware of the fact that I have been riding with the clutch OFF all the time, lol.
Clutch Off can improve shifting and drivetrain efficiency compared to clutch on due to there being less tension on the chain which makes the derailleur move a little easier.
So if you're not having any problems with chains dropping, clutch off is perfectly fine.
On Shimano, you also have to service the clutch every so often.
I only put the clutch on when going on a wildly bouncy gravel/short track. It's always off otherwise.
@@sebastianjost
Yeah mine shifts noticeably easier with the clutch off, less effort required to physically push the shift levers, especially up.
This is the first I've heard of a clutch. Now I gotta go look at my bike lol. I was going to ask can you still shift with it on but it sounds like you can. It's crazy how much I've ridden and yet no nothing about my bike 🤦
@@rickymahoney6664I didn't even know my bike had one. It's been on since I bought it. I went straight out and looked for it after watching this 😅
Congrats on 1 million subs, Seth! Well and truly deserve them.
His primary channel has 2.5 million subs.
@@Iosis6 I know
Well... except for subscriber 911,267. He was more trouble than he was worth.
@@BlairAirwho is that?
i work on my bike all the time and i really like learning new things about working on my bike. thank you seth again for another great and informational video.
I once upgraded an old Stumpjumper from a 3x to a 1x drivetrain. Chain drop was chronic. The clutch didn't help, chain guides did nothing (some seemed to make the problem worse) but a cheap narrow wide chainring (same brand Seth was showing) cured the problem. To me, the narrow-wide based 1x and the dropper post are pretty important. One advantage of the 1x is that rear suspension design is no longer compromised by the need to locate a front derailer opening up new possibilities in suspension design. Every full squish I've had developed cracks in the rear suspension, and I believe that in every case it was due to compromises related to accommodating the derailer. It was hard for me to give up that front derailer. What convinced me to ditch it was the need for a better dropper lever. The left-hand shifter had to go at that point, no two ways about it. No regrets, I love the 1x.
Is 1x mostly an MTB/Gravel thing or is it also applicable to road bikes/commuters? Back when I was without motorized transport, I was actually considering either a front 3-ring only setup or a huge 9+ gear wide cassette single ring with relatively wide spacing in order to make my daily driver more useful than a 3x7 with stupid overlapping ratios. In fact, I mostly ran that bike with just the front 3, and for my 9+ wide setup I was considering a huge front ring (like 50+ teeth!) in order to get as much speed on downhill road portions as I could.
@@Drunken_Hamster For commuter/road bikes you don't have to fight with chain dropping , so I wouldn't go for 1x drive train as it gives you less flexibility, smaller gear range and has less durable components. For casual, not trained rider in this case I would go with 2x9 or 2x10, they are cheaper and give you greater gear range with less overlapping gears, more durable drive train, you have smaller sprocket for hill climbing and bigger for speed on flat road. 1x drive trains are very specialized thing, so they are good for one type of riding where you are pushing the limits but if you want universal bike I think 2x are best choice.
@@czaja995 Fair enough, thanks for the advice!
Great video Seth, and I can confirm this from experience! I did a 1x conversion on my 2008 Trek last summer, and I took the frame in to a bike shop to have them pull the cranks as I didn't have the right tool. When I told the mechanic what I was doing he said without a clutch derailleur I'd be dropping the chain constantly and it wouldn't be worth the effort. Of course he kindly tried to sell me one, which I equally kindly refused. I purchased a cheap narrow-wide chainring from Amazon (something like $11) and after nearly 100 miles of trails and riding, I have only dropped the chain one single time, and that was when stick got sucked into my drivetrain and knocked it off. Otherwise, smooth sailing! The NW chainring really does hold the chain in place incredibly well.
The only time my single speed chain came off is when I got run over by a drunk guy in the way to work. Luckily I was not hurt so I just called in and said if be late to work that night you can check my bike if you don't believe me.
The drunk guy took off of course
Ahh the oh so common “bike shop bro” 😂
@@madtownanglerI guess if you weren't hurt it'll be difficult. But if you *are*, go and report this kind of thing to the police. They can estimate how and where the vehicle got damaged. When the culprit inevitably brings in their car to get fixed, the workshop might report them. Sometimes workshops have police-provided lists of damaged areas on specific makes and models of cars to look out for.
@@The_1ntern3t I wasn't hurt my crank got bent though.
I did a 1x9 conversion many years ago with a narrow wide ring and a non clutch x7. It dropped pretty regularly until I added a oneup chain guide. I'd get maybe 1 drop per ride on rocky technical terrain after that. But probably a clutch would have been a good upgrade.
I have a narrow wide chainring on my makeshift 1x11 Gravelbike. Although my chainline is messed up (needs to be a few mm more towards the inside) the chain never slips off the lowest gear.
You get front chainrings that cave in towards the frame. That's what I have on my Santa Cruz... makes the gears skipping long gone!
@buzzlom it's called off set I use a 3mm off set and a 6mm off set on my bikes depending on the axel sizing
I drop a chain every now and then on washboard gravel. Maybe the clutch on my Apex GX derailleur is worn?
I’ve used some washers to great success to get the chain line in check on some of my Frankenstein bikes lol
@dougbrett9218 yes my bike also has 3mm offset to make the line of the chain better :)
I have the exact same experience. My cheap Decathlon E-MTB came with a stamped steel chain-ring that was still a narrow-wide and welded to the crank so not easily replaceable. I always had problems with the chain coming off, like several times every mile. I solved it with a front-derailleur-like chain-guide initially, but it always kept that unnerving sound of the chain wanting to come off every few hundred meters or so. Last summer I finally upgraded to a (still cheap) new set of cranks so I could change to a machined narrow-wide ring and I can finally run it without a chain-guide now. My chain hasn't come off at all for 6 months straight. I use a Shimano Alivio rear derailleur, so no clutch as well. Congrats on te 1 mil btw, very well deserved and way overdue!
I,m using narrow-wide chainrings by years, but never paid attention to all these details! Amazing!
I think this is one of the coolest videos I've watched on bicycles. Having run narrow-wide chainrings for the last few years I get why I've barely had a chain come off. Awesome!
I don't even have an MTB but I love this channel because of the quality of content and presentation. And I always learn cool stuff and this is another example. I'd heard of narrow/wide chainrings but had no idea what that meant and what a great explanation I received!
Keep these videos coming! This is great information for those who are in the process of upgrading their older rides.
Something so simple and I would have had no idea without it explained this way. Little bits of learning over time adds up!
Beautiful story, but you are saying a small portion of it. Narrow-wide are ONLY available if we don't have gears up front, which means we have to have wider range on back. Which means we need very small and very big cogs on the back and potentially more of them, which means more lateral twist on the chain. Which leads to the real revolution: The big cog on the back - why the chain is not dropping that often from the 52 tooth cog, given we have insane lateral twist? That deserves a larger attention IMHO. (keep in mind, the rear cannot be narrow-wide :) )
Thanks for this. I went from a sorta entry level FS 2007 bike to a decent 2018 model and so many things had changed, I hadn't even considered this one. I went to check my bike while watching this, and the video answered questions that came up while doing so!
Seth I just want to say you’re an absolute titan in the MTB community. Love your content man. Im a fairly new rider myself and I’ve learned a lot about the sport with your various videos
I know full well how and why they work - still in here watching for the algorithm and the love of Seth
I learned so much in this video! I've been wrenching on my bike for years and never realized the front chainring was narrow wide, and that the chain could only go one way. The chain must naturally fall into the right slots since I've never had trouble installing the chain. Thanks!
The way Seth presents the information is mesmerizing. Even though I knew all these details, it feels satisfying to watch. I wish school teachers were like this.
By far the most informative video on MTB tech out there. Need more "explained" series type vids from you Seth. Pinkbike needs to take note on the simplicity on how your videos details how MTB tech works from a real world perspective. I appreciate the more advanced posts PB has, but the simplicity in this video takes me back to my WLIW/PBS days (for the New Yorkers out there) when I was a kid. Love it.
Don't underplay your tests Seth.
You ran a test and you presented the evidence with reasonable conclusions taken from what we all can see.
Keep it up 👊🏼
Ya, he was quite scientific in reality.
A sample size of 1 run indicates absolutely nothing. Seth knows that which is why he is cautious in making blanket statements and conclusions. For a test to achieve a significant result, it has to be done multiple times - definitely much more than just once to eliminate flukes and generate a trend.
And... you did it again! Made me curious about something I didnt know I would be curious about and you had my attention, riveted, the whole video! You have a gift my friend!
I have a whole new respect for my front chain ring. Excellent presentation!
Great video! 10/10 good job explaining, detailing, and going over the history!
And here I am still rocking 3 chain rings at the front in my old mountain bike 🙁
I recently upgraded my old drive train to a one-by. Best mtb decision I've ever made 👍
Me too🙃
Me too, brother.
i have an old full sus lapiere with three chainsrings
I just got into bikes as an adult and I’m actually blown away how many advances and complex things go into a modern mountain bike
Space age since 1990
Hi Seth, I’ve been subscribed to both of you channels for a few years now and have seen the majority of you videos. I’ve never left a comment before, but just wanted to say that I really appreciate and enjoy your content! Thanks for all you do for the cycling community!
Wow...this video is so enlightening! I've never had such a simple but comprehensive explanation. The gear manufacturers have never explained this so well! Thanks!
I just started riding this last fall and noticed the wide narrow pattern on the chain ring. Thanks for the video! I learned a lot.
I greatly appreciate this explanation. I also really enjoy your videos. I'm an ex-mtb'er that wants to think I'll get back into it.. but with my situation, I don't see how... but one day! Just wanted to say thanks.. I'd always wondered what the narrow-wide thing was all about... great video with excellent visual demonstration. While you're saying you're not being scientific (enough?) I think you are. In fact, I've never seen Shimano or SRAM share their 'scientific' experiments... I always felt like they did what they did and we got what we got. So, I do appreciate real world experiments, they are the most important/realistic to me and 90% of people out there.
I've run several different narrow-wide rings, still dropping chains (with clutch mech). Eventually got wolftooth (couldn't get it in UK, so it had to be shipped from US). Had it for a few months, and haven't drpped the chain once. Even crashed quite hard, chain still on. Best 80 quid I've ever spent on my bike.
Great video, you have nailed it, the video and your description clearly shows how clutches, chains and chainrings work, thank you, before this I didn't really understand but now it looks so simple 😊
That stamped steel chain ring has ramps that are designed to not hold onto the chain , allowing shifts . We used to run single speed from chain rings with taller teeth . Worked well enough at the time
That's what I was thinking too. Chainrings designed for multiple front gears are going to be less secure, since by design they are meant to guide the chain off the side to the next chainring.
Another chain retention feature these typically have is longer teeth. Bc they don't need to shift off like a traditional ring does they can have significantly longer teeth that protrude through the chain meaning the chain has to move further away before it completely comes out of contact with the teeth
Yeah that's the solution Shimano went with, they don't have narrow wide but still works quite well on my bike
Thanks for this video, never gave it much thought but I have wondered about the chain ring. With all that said I do love my 2x drive train, I like being able to get a much lower gear with one click whenever I get to a sudden incline and then with one click back to the higher gear.
Seth, Long time watcher. One of the best videos I have seen from you. You gave so much clarity on something that so many, including myself, take for granted. Keep up the great work!
I just bought an upgrade a nice new mountain bike to an e-bike and was about to add links to my chain because of ho tight it felt until my buddy showed me my derailleur had a clutch. This video fully walked through how my new drive train works and was SUPER helpful! And I'm starting to think watching your videos is the reason I got into biking and dumped my car!
Me and my lads have preferred simple and light 1 x drivetrains on mtb for years now, narrow wides have made my riding so much more enjoyable. I can’t remember the last time I dropped a chain and that’s without a clutch derailleur.
I love the expansiveness of your videos. It's like the Discovery channel for Mountain Bike related topics.
I set up a Specalized Vado SL electric hybrid a few days ago and wondered why the chain popped off the chainring when shifting to the largest 4 cassette cogs. Turned out it had a "semi" narrow wide chainring. You could feel the difference in thickness of the teeth with your fingers but the chain would sit on it when it was out of sync (i.e. the narrow bit of chain would fit on the wider tooth). Moved the chain along 1 tooth and it worked perfectly again. Seems that for city bikes they want the advantages too but slimmed it down to reduce noise as the demands are not as high as mountain biking. Might be something to bare in mind when shopping for chainrings.
You're high.
You are the GOAT, my friend. You are a blessing to mountain biking.
Very informative and entertaining! I of course ran into the term "narrow-wide chain ring", never thought about it, though. I was also part of the "the clutch does it all" crowd 😳
So I really did learn something today - funny enough, the video was published one day after I was left wondering why the chain would only connect properly on every second tooth to the chain ring on my new trail bike. 😂
Seth is just by far the most entertaining MTB YTer ever.
+1 for your anecdotal evidence. I have a gravel bike runnning a non-clutch rear derailleur. Had chain drops whenever I went underbiking, until I upgraded to an even cheaper chinese narrow wide chainring than what you have in this video, and I haven't dropped a chain since. I originally upgraded purely to get a smaller chainring, and only realised the anti-chain drop benefit of the chainring a few months later, on reflection.
This was great video explaining in depth your study on chain and narrow wide chain gears. For a person with no interest in cycling let along off road biking, this was indeed an engaging video and very easily under stood. Thanks for your time making this video.
Okay, who are you? I watched your limits-of-friction video where you brought up trigonometry, and today you're talking about number theory and narrow-wide non-primality. I don't normally have the maths part of my life overlap with the cycling videos part of my life, but i like it!
After all these years, this is something I didn't know. Astounded.
Wow didn't even know narrow wide chainrings was a thing. All my bikes have them, just checked. Learnt something from this video. Awesome, thanks
This is a contender for the best youtube video so far this year. A litlte, but not not much time-overhang, slow-motion and action-cam footage carefully used, Close-Ups whenever they are necessary - not just to mask a cut. Clear Audio, supportive soundtrack, clear pictures, with archive footage in obvious and not try-hard relation to the video's subject and some nice, subtle color light "brushstrokes" in the background and on the subject. Excellent effort. Maybe some exaggerated "chain noise"-foley would have been a nice, satirical addition to put an emphasis on the non-narrow-wide-chainring-adaption-problem and put a grin on some of the watchers' faces.
Never thought what actually is it about narrow wide chainrings. Underestimated this little innovation for sure.
Thanks for great video, there is real life testing and good explanation.
I've never known about narrow wide chainrings until now, thanks for teaching!
Pls do more of these videos they are so interesting and make something nice to get work done to
Very nice, I learned a lot. SRAM has really been putting the pressure on their competition the past ten or so years.
Thank you very much. Wow I knew the narrow wide was a great design but now I know it's probably the best design. That video was so comprehensive and informative, once again thank you, I'm going to order a narrow wide for my son's bike now
I think these videos are great because you really don't think about all the engineering that goes into some parts as simple as a chain ring
I get a smile on my face every time I see the GT Ricochet on this channel. Such a good looking Dick's bike and one that I love to own! A great base bike to modify along the way!
I noticed all this when I did my 1by conversion a couple years ago. Cool to see my thoughts mirrored by Seth!
Tis deep dive blew my mind over such an simple but important part 🤯. Thanks!
definitely did the right thing putting a cheap narrow-wide on my old bike when i changed it from 3x8 to 1x8! it doesn't have a clutch because i'm still running the original derailleur and the bike is from 2003. i haven't had much of an issue dropping chains (we don't have a lot of rough terrain around here) and i've been going for clutch derailleurs to minimize chain slap -- never considered they could help prevent chain drops . . . but also didn't know what a narrow-wide was for! just figured it made sense because i knew the gaps in a chain alternate.
this is the example of a smart invention. cheap, easy to manufacture, effective, and doesn't even come with compromises in terms of weight, efficiency, etc.
Great footage! Great information! Heck....great video! Thanks for putting it together and sharing.
I don't even bike but your videos are super entertaining. Well done.
Kinda like selling the devil an igloo.
Thank👍 great video I'm upgrading my chainring to a narrow wide and for now leaving the Deore clucthless derailuer alone😊 thanks
Thanks for the great info, Seth!! Going to check the chainring on my diy one by 2014 krampus
When I made my GT a 1x, I knew i had to use a narrow wide, today I learned why, thanks!
i haven never ridden a narrow wide , thanks to this video i am re evaluating my decision to buy cheaper cranks on my conversion journey to 1x12 (from deore 3x9)
Very informative Seth, I'm about to change from a 3x to 1x chainring and this explained a great deal.
I run my SS with 34x16 gearing. Chainring and cog are both N/W. It is the best set up I’ve used on SS in 20+ years
I had a a gt avalanche I put a narrow wide chain ring and I used the stock clutchless derailleur with an extender and a bigger cassette and it worked great never gave me issues
This is amazing content! Now I know what I kept dropping my chain at the same spot every day on my commute.
Seriously you make the best content in this industry
It's good to see Seth getting back to posting some basic stuff the last few months.
Rocking the Biopace chainrings ! I still have a set, can't feel a difference at all, but they look good and confuse others!
I have a 1990 diamondback ascent EX. i bought it because I saw your video with an ascent! the last owner made it a 1x and removed the front deraileur. my first mod was a narrow wide and it doesnt drop the chain anymore!
When Seth comes out with a new vid, I hit like before I watch it. Because I know it will deserve it.
I never really thought about how they work but now I understand, really neat!
Such a simple product but has helped change Mountain biking for the better.
Testing has shown that a narrow wide chainring is more effective than a clutched rear derailleur and is the best option if only one chain retention choice is available.
With a clutched rear derailleur and a narrow wide chainring obviously the optimal choice for maximum chain retention.
And I would imagine it's cheaper to remove both front chainrings and the front derailleur and put one narrow wide chainring on the cranks.
Less things to go wrong and less weight. Considering cheap eBay cranks with a narrow wide chainring included are about thirty dollars delivered a bit of a no brainer well done SRAM....
😎🇦🇺👍
So fascinating. Had no idea how big of an innovation the narrow wide chainring was. Nice work man🔥🔥
I remember back in 2017 when I first tried going 1x (1x9 to be exact) using the 2nd chainring of my 3x crankset lol. I had to makeshift a chain holder using a rear reflector clamp and a small cut of garden hose. Even raced with it on a rainy day and super muddy trails.
Then I finally committed to a narrow-wide the same year.
Ran Alivio 1x9 for 6 years until Christmas last year when I finally upgraded to a Deore 1x12 using the same chainring Seth is using in this video.
Thanks for this info, I'll be upgrading my 3x to a N/W 1x as soon as I upgrade the rear!
Excellent video and explanation!!! Love how the tech was explained in layman's term. More of these type of videos please explaining why a particular tech on the bike was created.
Best MTB-Content out there for sure!
Great video, love these deep dives into the different parts of the bike. Very interesting!
Thanks for the advice when it comes to making reasonable upgrades to lower end bikes. Many of us can't afford something high end but would love the option to traverse just a bit more terrain with a little more ease and a little less trouble.
The geeking out on this make so much sense to me and completely understand! Thank you for making sense out!
0:44 Clutch derailleurs were a huge thing too.
6:28 an almost completely relaxed R derailleur cage not applying sufficient tension? Astounding.
10:25 The clutch was the most significant.
Clutch clutch clutch. If I had to choose one or the other: clutch.
10:41 Literal chain guide displayed. Clutch wins.
Absolutely amazing! I learn something every time I watch!!
a normal chainring with a chainguide worked very well on my bike. It was a diy chainguide that I made in 10 mins and it worked for like a year lol
Geek on! This was very helpful. I would like my mind to wrap around all of these mechanical details and concepts like I would like my chain to wrap around the chainring. So I'm going to have to keep thinking about what you have presented. Since this is in regard to mountain bikes, I'll give you my mountain thanks. This holp me a heap!
Was dropping chain on a Shimano 2x11 with a clutch like crazy. Getting a narrow-wide chainring put an end to that once and for all.
Is it still 2x11, or did you have to lock out the front derailleur to make it a 1x?
Part of me thinks that you couldn't shift the 2x with narrow-wide rings; another part thinks that it would be more difficult to shift but that the chain would ultimately skip into the right spot on the new ring.
@@KevinT3141 I've replaced the two rings with a single one. I don't think there's a good way to have a 2x with narrow wide.
Never dropped a chain with my AXS XX or the new XX SL. And i ride roots and rocks all day long, no smooth tracks where I ride! Absolutely incredible drivetrains.
A curious thing about the replica N/W rings back when SRAM first released them:
The UK manufacturers were able to legally make copies without infringing the Patent thanks to the way UK Patent Law works. Someone found a previous patent filing from the Industrial Revolution that showed the same tech for a threshing machine. As there was proof that the technology had been available before the SRAM patent then the patent didn't stand up to scrutiny. SRAM fought it and lost!
What a video so interesting, Thank you Berm for the time you take to get us useful information.
I enjoy your videos buddy.
Greetings from Texas!
Congrats on the 1 million.
Great video! I would love to see these deep dives into bike components more often
Thanks, did know the chain is moving so much. Very interesting!
Yes. 3 main inventions of cycling industry for last 15 years or so: dropper posts, proper 1x drivetrains, wider rims/tubeless tires (huge impact on comfort/traction/speed)
I'm excited it's just a step closer to Morganton. I wish we would build a bike park here. They are currently planning to add to our Greenway park trail system. We will have a 20 mile stretch when complete. I think a bike park would be a perfect edition to the trail system. Thank you for all your videos!
I have been wondering about this for ages!
great work mate
keep up the content its great
I have a few of these chainrings and now I know why. Excellent video. Thank you 🙏🏽