I think if Jon was legitimatized and loved by Cat, Ned probably would’ve told Cat about his legitimacy before he left for KL in case if he wasn’t able to make it back.
I’ve honestly never understood why Ned never tells her considering they seem to genuinely trust and love each other and Jon is the only sore point they have
@@benjaminlanigan7254 because her weakness is her fear for her children, and having reagarhs heir in the castle I don’t think would’ve sat well with her
They didn’t even need to do all that if he had just told cat the truth and she’d accepted the situation for what it was she was a reasonable woman. Cats issue with Jon isn’t that he’s a bastard (that’s the excuse that socially acceptable in her world) it’s that in her eyes while she’s a smitten teen who was pregnant and was very homesick in the north at first and gives birth at home only for her husband to come home with a baby she thinks is a product of cheating. Cat is Sansa mother and so much like her (that’s there on purpose) he shattered her trust but also her fairytale view of knights as well just if Ned stark of all people could come back with a bastard than all of it must be a lie so she grows more cynical and wary. Jon is a real physical reminder of all these things at once. On top of that Ned demands he’s raised in the castle among her kids odd for a bastard son in their culture and she’s a good wife so there’s nothing she can do about it but give him the cold shoulder. From her PoV Ned deciding that in her eyes probably meant Jon’s mother was important to Ned. Jon never had a chance to be loved by cat bc respect is a big part of their society and Ned doing all of what I just wrote was an insult to cat and by extension river run politically so she kinda could have never accepted him and not broken some promises herself. Legitimizing Jon WITHOUT telling cat the truth first would have only further insulted her and she’d hated him even more we also have to remember she truly doesn’t know him as a person for all she knows he could have secretly been planning on taking rob out if that happened. If that happens her role as a wife and mother fails. Neds whole thing is that he takes the concepts of honor duty and promises to their most glorified noble and almost naive concepts that he took too far, from what was actually smart in reality. He promised Liana he’d never tell that’s his sister and a noble promise and it could be a risk to tell cat however they had a real solid love connection relationship I’m sure she’d been trustworthy and ultimately Lyana is gone. In the end BOTH he and Robert were haunted by her ghost in different ways and they couldn’t let it go. By the time of the series Jon was almost a man things change eventually get more complex. Meanwhile Cat is not gone and if he’d been smart a secret like that would have needed planning and allies. The whole story begins in part cuz Ned didn’t trust cat albeit for what he considers noble and unbreakable concepts but it cost him everything.
@@andapandacongufandathen again he couldn’t trust her at first since he barely knew her. she was his brothers fiancée they had a rushed wedding for alliance that resulted in robb and he ran to the war when he came back he already had jon and the promise. By the time he understood he could trust her and love her things were already sealed and he didn’t plan, IMO, to tell Jon or anyone while robert lived or maybe ever. he only said he would tell jon about he because at the wall like maestre aemon, he wouldnt be at risk.
So kind of quick input, originally Robb wanted to treat with Stannis, not Renly, because he believed that Stannis was was the rightful heir. It was Catelyn who pushed really hard for trying to form an alliance with Renly. So I think ideally in world where Jon was Robb's second hand and doing the negotiations, Jon would've deferred to Robb's original stance and treated with Stannis. And on that note, between Jon and Catelyn I don't think Robb allows Theon to go off on his own to try and recruit the Iron Fleet. The Greyjoys still raid the North but without Theon there they aren't able to capture Winterfell.
@@tristancole8158 If I remember correctly, Theon knew the secret passages to enter the castle and since the castle was largely unguarded its why he was able to effectively lay seige with such few men. In a scenario where Theon never gets the chance to defect, the Ironborn would probably still pillage throughout the North but they'd have no way to break into Winterfell.
@@crimsonECH1DNA Yes, so many simple things Robb could have done to win… telling Edmure their plan to divert Tywin and let Stannis sack King’s Landing, allying with Stannis and accepting his rule from the Iron Throne, not sending Theon to the most rebellious untrustworthy kingdom, when he was literally their prisoner to keep them in line… another sad plot point to add to my list…
As far as his birth order, they could’ve just said he was Robb’s younger (fraternal) twin. Robb has Tully-ish features & Jon has Stark-ish ones. It might be seen as a bit of a curiosity that they don’t look alike at all, but they each look like one of Ned/Catelyn and that should be enough for a feudal society.
The reason why Ned never had Jon legitimized is the same reason he claimed Jon as his bastard in the first place: to protect him. Ned does not want Jon brought to anyone's attention, especially not King Robert's, who is the one who would need to decree the change to Jon's status. That's what is important to keep in mind, that Robert WOULD be fine with many of the things Ned refuses to seek for Jon. Robert would be fine with legitimizing Ned's natural son, he would be fine with Ned bringing him to court when he came to be Hand, and finding Jon a comfortable position, such as a commission in the City Watch, or a government job or a post on a ship in the royal fleet - something like that. He would probably also allow Jon to be seated with the Stark family and royal family at Winterfell, and laughed at Cersei's annoyance. The reason Ned did not pursue any of these options for Jon, at considerable damage to Jon's self-esteem is that he did not want Robert or Cersei or Jaime, all of whom knew Rhaegar to a degree, to have the chance to get a good look at Jon and notice any possible resemblance. Taking him to court would have brought him into contact with even more people who knew Rhaegar, like Barristan, Varys, Pycelle, and the various servants in the Red Keep or Crownland vassals who might have frequently attended court in both Aerys & Robert's reigns. Ned wants the rest of the realm to forget Jon exists. All the stuff Jon would get as "an actual Stark" would bring attention and it would give people reason to question his backstory. Being high status, being a member of the aristocracy, brings enemies or rivals, or just simply hostile attention from people who want what you have, or are enemies of your family. And people like that, who think they have a chance at getting what Jon has, or at hurting his family, are going to look hard at his origins so they can question his status and position. In a system of nobility, your background and parentage is the key to your belonging and what you are entitled to, and if they don't want Jon to have something, the easiest way is to go poking into his personal history. In the books, when Robb is discussing his need for an heir, with his brothers seemingly dead and his sisters disappeared or compromised by marriage to the enemy, Catelyn brings up distant cousins, descended from Ned's grandfather's sisters. Robb dismisses them as strangers and instead, declares his intention to legitimize Jon and proclaim him his heir. In a timeline where Jon was legitimized, even with a solemn declaration that Catelyn's children and their descendants come before Jon's, he is still jumping ahead of those distant cousins, descended from Stark women. Aristocrats know every detail of their family trees, and they know EXACTLY where they stand in line to inherit any titles or estates held by an ancestor. These same cousins would exist and the minute Jon is legitimized as a son of Ned Stark, even one whose inheritance rights fall below Arya's, those cousins are going to be protesting and complaining, and looking hard for any detail that might derail his inheritance. And then the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar could be exposed, and Ned is on the hook for a treasonous deception of the king, with the risk of his whole family being attainted. Catelyn arguing for Jon's legitimacy would not change any of these facts. Ned would refuse her, just as he refused her rather reasonable requests to send him away, to be fostered with another family and his needs provided for.
Here's one: What if when Catelyn was en route to Winterfell after telling Ned about the catspaw, she *didn't* arrest Tyrion, but rather continued on her journey, and followed Ned's orders, including having Theon watched closely? Tyrion's abduction is the fuse that ignited so much of the war. Tywin's ordering Gregor to ravage the Riverlands, Jaime's killing most of Ned's men, Ned's injury, Robert's leaving King's Landing to get away from Cersei's haranguing, Ned's decision to return the girls to Winterfell, which led to his epiphany about the parentage of Cersei's children... But let's say instead that Catelyn simply greeted Tyrion, and dined with him in order to discreetly question him about the dragonbone dagger... which would have tipped her off that Baelish was lying about the ownership of the dagger, and probably other things as well. Explaining *why* she was traveling incognito is a bit tricky, but she could have deflected by simply saying that she needed to do some sensitive Stark business face-to-face with Ned, and asked for his discretion. Tyrion, who has a surprising steak of decency, probably would have had no problem agreeing.
She has a very easy excuse for why she's there: "I'm on my way to King's Landing for the tourney. Wanted to see my daughters. I'm traveling incognito because I only have the single guard with me, as I didn't want to leave my children undefended." She could've then, as you said, discreetly questioned him about the dagger and potentially gotten enough conflicting information to doubt Littlefinger. Tyrion would likely offer to escort her to King's Landing himself, since he has his men to help protect them. She could then agree to this and used the public appearance in King's Landing to play up Bran's injuries. Basically proclaiming in front of the Lannisters and Robert that Bran isn't doing so hot and no one knows when/if he'll ever wake up to hopefully keep any other assassins from trying to make a go at him. Alternatively, she could downplay his injuries. Proclaim that he's doing so well and shows signs of waking to try and bait another attempt (Obviously with the intention of being hella prepared) in order to gain more evidence, such as capturing the next assassin alive and questioning them on who they were hired by. Following this, she'd return to Winterfell. What changes? Well, pretty much everything you suggest is a very likely change. The biggest ones are definitely: Tywin doesn't incite war with the Tullys. So Ned doesn't send half his men to quell the Mountain. Jaime doesn't kill just about all of Ned's men, Ned doesn't get horribly injured. Ned likely doesn't choose to send the girls back to Winterfell, but Robert probably still runs away on his hunting trip. I can see Ned figuring out the parentage of Cersei's kids, just through different means. The epiphany comes after he's seen a lot of evidence and such, when Sansa makes the comment she does. Sansa could still make the comment, which leads to the epiphany. This would lead to Ned giving Cersei the warning to get out of dodge because h o n o r. Difference now, because he's not trying to send his kids away, is that Sansa doesn't go to Cersei in an attempt to stay in King's Landing. So Cersei doesn't make moves to take the girls hostage, which means when the powergrab for the throne happens, Sansa and Arya end up staying together as the Lannisters don't attack the Tower of the Hand. Robert still definitely dies. Now, here's where things can go a few different ways. With Ned having all his soldiers and such, he might succeed in taking the throne from the Lannisters for just long enough to allow Stannis to arrive. I can see him giving Cersei one final chance to flee with her children before Stannis shows up, which she'd probably take at that point but with the intention of definitely returning to seek her revenge because it's Cersei. Or, possibly, Cersei is killed in the powergrab for the throne and Ned sends her children off with Jaime. Alternatively, Ned can lose. Perhaps Cersei has her father send in more Lannister soldiers than previously or perhaps the Northern soldiers lay down their swords when Littlefinger takes Ned at knifepoint. Perhaps Cersei/Littlefinger has the soldiers killed off more quietly in the night. Or Jaime is there in King's Landing and manages to overpower enough of the soldiers so Ned ends up losing. Thus, Ned is still captive. However, because his leg isn't injured, he isn't suffering nearly as much in the dungeons because his leg gets infected. And with Tyrion there in King's Landing, Joffery actually lets Ned live and go to the Wall because there's two people that Joffery is actually scared enough of to listen to. That's Tywin and Tyrion. The first option with Ned winning the powergrab for the throne is more likely in my opinion though, as Catelyn would've likely told Ned at the tourney the things she discussed with Tyrion about the dagger, thus putting doubt on Littlefinger. So Ned doesn't feel obligated to place all his trust in Littlefinger. So he's not betrayed by him in the end, AND he has all his soldiers, AND Cersei isn't tipped off by Sansa that Ned is planning a powergrab.
What if Catelyn followed Ned's instructions closely? Not a damn thing would have changed. None of the problems that befall the Starks are a result of insufficient adherence to those outdated commands of Ned's. The consequences of Catelyn arresting Tyrion (points for accurately calling it that, instead of "abduction", like lots of dumb fans do) are only knowable in hindsight, with the perfect knowledge of a reader, and the role of her actions in initiating the conflict is greatly exaggerated, like the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. All of those factions are not going to war over a single incident, rather the conflict has to do with a lot of other things. Regardless of what Cat does at the inn, Cersei is still passing off her children as Robert's and the rightful heirs to the throne, and every incumbent member of the Small Council knows the truth. Stannis & Renly are not going to let their sister-in-law's bastards jump them in the line of succession, and Cersei is not going to let them live to challenge her children's claims. Tywin is on the edge of old age, and will not wait much longer for a return to power, or let someone else step into what he considers his rightful position controlling the Iron Throne. The Martells are scheming for revenge against Tywin, looking to bring down the Baratheon dynasty that has claimed the throne their nephew was supposed to sit. The Tyrells are greedy for power and to be taken seriously as a Great House and will back any side, no matter how destructive or monstrous who will help them reach their goal. And Varys is plotting a Targaryen restoration through first massively destabilizing the realm, which Littlefinger is also trying to do, to make his own climb to power possible, and to cover up his own malfeasance. Catelyn doing nothing at the inn of the crossroads stops NONE of that from coming to fruition. Also, you're mischaracterizing the situation. Asking Tyrion to be discreet is too late. He's already outed her to the crowded common room. Your whole scenario is based not on what Catelyn knows and believes but on what YOU know. Catelyn dining with Tyrion to question him about the dagger is stupid. She has word from what she considers a good source, on his guilt. What on earth would asking him about it do other than to tip her hand if he is guilty, and give him a motive to disappear her on the road, where she is all but alone and vulnerable? If Tyrion is behind the assassination attempt, this is a man who has broken the sacred laws of hospitality and attempted to murder a child on top of it. Either crime alone places him beyond the pale and together make him a monster. Setting aside Catelyn's (entirely reasonable, from what she knows) worst case scenario, WHY would Tyrion accede to her request for discretion? Tyrion might be decent (highly debatable) but he is a Lannister first and foremost, who loves Jaime more than anyone else in the world, along with Jaime's (younger) children. Tyrion KNOWS his brother is guilty of an ongoing act of treason. He knows what the exposure of Cersei's shenanigans will mean for his brother, his niece and nephew and for House Lannister. And he is all the way on Team Lannister. He is not selling them out, he is going to do whatever he can to actively protect his family from the consequences of their actions. Tyrion strongly suspects that Jaime and Cersei had something to do with Bran's fall. That might even have been part of his motivation for helping Bran with the saddle plans: guilt at what his family has done to the kid, and possibly an attempt to buy some goodwill. But his questioning of Bran on the fall is not a concern for objective justice "though the heavens fall", it is an assessment of the threat Bran might pose with his memories. We will see that he makes a tremendous effort to fight for Joffrey, to protect him and keep him on the Iron Throne, knowing full well he has no right to it. Tyrion is perfectly willing to destroy people who are victimized by his sister's treachery and only standing up for the right thing to do, because to him "Lannister" matters more than "good" or "justified" or "innocent". NO. WAY. Tyrion helps Catelyn AT ALL. Even her mere statement that she is on sensitive Stark business would set off his radar and make him worry exactly what that business is. Like Petyr, he surely knows the Tully words. He can probably guess that she would not have abandoned her sons and home and dashed down to Winterfell with a single aging guard, chosen for his trustworthiness & loyalty over physical ability unless it was hugely important and could not be trusted to a raven or a courier, even a courier as trusted as Ser Rodrik. Something that she had reason to be afraid of its discovery, when her husband is Hand of the King, she is the center of a powerful alliance of Houses that brought down House Targaryen, and her daughter is betrothed to the Crown Prince as a gesture of the King's honor & favor. The ONLY thing that could have her concerned is a threat even higher and closer to the throne than her husband. Like the Queen. Telling Tyrion ANYTHING would be a huge mistake in reality, and from what Catelyn knows, extremely dangerous. Hell, from what she knew, the man who had tried to have her son killed, had just ostentatiously greeted her in order to alert his family's co-conspirators in the room to her presence. Like that large contingent of Frey guards, whose lord's second son is married to Tywin's sister, or those three Bracken stooges, whose lord's House often chooses sides to oppose the Blackwoods, who are often friendly to House Stark ... Catelyn rallying the room to her cause and arresting Tyrion is the SMART thing to do AND the cautious and careful thing, given what she knew at the time. Really, even the view that the resulting war was a disaster for her team is misreading the situation. The Lannisters blundered, and Tywin got lucky that Robert died when he did, or he would have been on the hook for breaking the King's peace, defying Robert's justice, when the king ruled that Tyrion was to be returned with no further violence from the Starks OR the Lannisters, and finally, attacking Beric & Thoros under the royal banner, while on a mission to carry out the King's Justice. Tywin declared war on the crown with his series of responses to Tyrion's arrest and nearly brought the whole realm down on his head like an avalanche. As with Lysa's self-destructive hostility and bungling Tyrion's case, the circumstances that made things go badly for Catelyn & House Stark were unique, involved a lot of bad luck for the Starks, and good luck for the Lannisters, and could not remotely be foreseen by the Starks at the time they made their moves.
@@shaelynmartin1996 "This would lead to Ned giving Cersei the warning to get out of dodge because h o n o r. " It was not about honor, it was about saving two innocent children and one shitty child from being murdered for their parents' crimes. When Cersei asks how Ned is any better than her or Jaime or Robert, he does not say "I have honor" he says "I do not kill children." Cersei & Jaime tried to murder Bran, Cersei may have murdered Robert's bastards and will go on to do so after he is dead, their father had Rhaegar's children murdered and Robert approved of it, and ordered the murder of a 13 year old girl and her unborn child. These are the reasons why Ned hated the Lannisters when the story started, before Bran fell or he had a hint of any treachery, and why he resigned the Handship and why he hid Jon's parentage and why he had a falling out with Robert over the Targaryen children. This is what Ned is all about - protecting the children, legitimately, unlike the POS Varys who uses that as his excuse for his crimes. It's the reason for most of his DIShonorable acts, like lying about Jon's parents, proclaiming himself an adulterer, changing Robert's will, and ultimately, lying about his treason and confessing falsely to crimes he did not commit and swearing to the legitimacy of Joffrey's parentage - in each case, to protect an innocent child, mostly Jon or Sansa. Ned puts the lives of children ahead of honor every single time, and that's why his kids are going to save the world, and Tywin's fall and fail and have shitty tragic and short lives. "Sansa and Arya end up staying together as the Lannisters don't attack the Tower of the Hand." Why? They are going to be attacking to get rid of all of Ned's supporters, anyone he might have told the truth about the twincest. Anything like the letter they found he wrote to Stannis. The only way the Lannisters don't attack the Tower of the Hand, slaughter Ned's household and take his daughters hostage is if Ned wins. If he loses, what is the scenario you see where they just ... ignore Sansa and Arya living in their quarters while their father is in the dungeon? IDK why Catelyn would turn around and return to court with Tyrion. She's been to court with Ned, she's going home because she has things to do. This seems to rest on the absurd hypothetical of Catelyn having a chat with the man who tried to murder her favorite son and Tyrion cheerfully going along with a plan to investigate and expose his beloved brother's crimes that will see Jaime executed for treason, and likely his niece and nephews murdered for their parents' crimes as well. From her perspective, Catelyn knows what she needs to about the dagger. Asking Tyrion about it will only tip his hand that she knows something, and being that she is alone and vulnerable on the road, an easy complication for him to eliminate. And in reality, Tyrion fights a fucking war against the rightful heir to Robert, on behalf of his loathsome monstrous bastard of a nephew who has no such claim and whom Tyrion knows will abuse his power and probably kill him to boot, all because that was in accordance with the goals of the father & sister who also hate him. He is NOT lifting a FINGER to help Catelyn get one hair closer to finding out the truth of her son's injury, which he suspected from the first was the result of his siblings' actions.
@@Gunleaver You seem to be vastly misunderstanding any of the hypotheticals I proposed. After picking apart a common joke in the fandom about Ned and his relationship to honor. Cersei attacks the Tower of the Hand when she does in the books BECAUSE she gets tipped off by Sansa that something big is about to go down, due to Ned wanting to ship his daughters back to Winterfell, due to not having enough men to protect them in King's Landing. Yes, if Ned loses the powergrab, the girls are still hostages. However, there's a chance they might not be separated in that instance. Why would Catelyn go back to court? Because she was just outted by Tyrion in the middle of an inn. If she's not arresting him, that's the most likely excuse she can pull. She's on her way to visit King's Landing for the tourney and to see her daughters before returning to tend to her son. You seem to be under the impression that Catelyn would just straight up ask Tyrion "Is this your dagger?" in this hypothetical. Or that she would just immediately spill everything to Tyrion about everything. Which is not what I'm supposing. I'm suggesting that, if she doesn't take Tyrion, she is smart enough to come up with a halfway decent alibi for what the hell she's doing at the inn, pretending to not be a noble, with only a single guard. In which case, she's smart enough to be discreet in her conversation when she likely dines with Tyrion. I'm not suggesting the two end up as Sherlock Holmes and Watson. Catelyn can even disprove Littlefinger's claims with one simple question... "So, tell me about the tourney last year. Who did you bet on to win?" In which the response from Tyrion would be his usual, "My brother. I always bet on my brother to win." This would, in theory, throw everything she heard from Littlefinger into question. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that in order to discreetly question Tyrion, she needs to show her hand or even the dagger. She doesn't. She just needs to play the noblewoman and ask about the situation in which he apparently won the dagger without making any comment about said dagger. And why would Tyrion suspect anything? He didn't when he first spied her. He was surprised and seemingly happy to see a familiar face after the relatively warm goodbye he had upon leaving Winterfell. He's not "helping" her. Hell, in his mind, he's probably viewing this as a way to mess with her/his sister. Because Tyrion would 100% waltz into King's Landing with Catelyn and smirk at Cersei like "I wonder what we could've spoken of on the way here." Purely to make her panic and act a fool. Because Tyrion loves making his sister act a fool. The biggest thing, if Cat does not take Tyrion, is that Tywin does not go to war with the Riverlands. No one suspects Ned knowing anything about the children (Other than Littlefinger and our Master of Whispers, most likely) until Ned tells Cersei to leave. Everything comes to head with the powergrab of the throne. Whether Ned wins or loses that is a complete guess based on the various different factors at play.
@@shaelynmartin1996 1. Cersei attacks the Tower of the Hand ITB because she has Ned in custody and most of his men killed in the throne room! The timeline was, Sansa goes to Cersei, who has her taken to a room alone and kept there. Then they have the confrontation in the throne room, the City Watch kills Ned's men and Littlefinger pulls the dagger on him. Then they start murdering Ned's servants and remaining guards, and along the way, send Trant and some guards after Arya and capture Jeyne Poole and toss her into the room where Sansa is. Sansa going to Cersei affected nothing except where she was when the fighting started. All it told Cersei was that Ned was sending the girls home, and that was a decision he made long before Robert died, and even before he confronted Cersei about the twincest. Ned's plans to move against the Lannisters were completely unrelated to his plan to send the girls home. I don't see how the girls would be together, either, because Arya was with Syrio when it went down and Sansa would not have been with her. Sansa would not have escaped had she been kept away from Cersei, and Arya would not have been captured. 2. That's not a reason to go to court. A. she does not need an excuse, she does not answer to anyone present. B. Tyrion is coming from Winterfell. He knows she Is not. That he and his larger party (including the Nights Watch men) overtook her with a single retainer is rather unbelievable. Catelyn's dilemma in that situation is not her cover story, it's the danger that just ramped up by Tyrion catching her in a vulnerable position. Traveling with him would be exacerbating that danger. Getting the men in the room to declare their allegiance and then turning that against Tyrion was a brilliant way to alleviate that danger (even if it was not as immediate as she thought). 3. I don't care how she phrases it. Any way she works the dagger into a conversation is betraying an interest in it. If Tyrion owned that dagger and gave it to a catspaw to murder Catelyn's baby, there is simply NO WAY to mention or hint at it, without alerting him that she knows. You are thinking like someone who knows the truth of Tyrion's involvement, not like someone who believes he is the culprit. There is no way that the truth about the dagger comes out unless one of them has the other totally in their power. 4. Why would Catelyn ask Tyrion about the tourney? This is what I mean about your perspective. It is a good question from our PoV, because we have external knowledge that something fishy is afoot, and hindsight knowledge the Petyr is lying, and so we would go into a conversation trying to get Tyrion to admit his guilt, or to get his view of what is really going on. Why would Catelyn question Tyrion about the outcome of the tourney, when she has already received what she believes is good information from her foster brother, with the Master of Whispers standing right there in the room with them? If Tyrion used the dagger he won at the tourney to arm an assassin to kill her son, why would he admit to her that he won it in the first place? Why would he be honest with her, when he knows that dagger can incriminate her, and in Catelyn's mind, the smart thing for Tyrion to do is deny any ownership? You have to remember, Catelyn is approaching that situation not facing off with the good Lannister, or a decent, cool and witty dude, she is in the room with the man who violated guest right and tried at least once and maybe more, to murder her son. She is going to assume anything he says on that subject would be a lie. She is going to assume that he knows the dagger is evidence of his guilt and would never cop to owning it. It's the same with Tyrion's reactions. You and I know what his reaction is. Catelyn does not. Catelyn is in the room with a man who has an inexplicable grudge against her family, being involved with Bran falling to his near-death and then sending an assassin to finish him off, for absolutely no reasonable cause, other than to protect his family's schemes. Hell, she does not know about the 'relatively warm goodbye upon leaving Winterfell" because that was in your head. He was greeted at Winterfell with an outright refusal of hospitality which was only grudgingly rescinded after he offered some help to a member of the family. He refused the offer of hospitality before it could be voiced and left the castle to obtain his own lodgings, waiting for Yoren & co to continue the journey. Even if you want to call that relatively warm, Cat does not know. What she does know is that this certain enemy of her family has just blown her cover. "Because Tyrion loves making his sister act a fool." Prove it. Where or when does he do this? At MOST, he likes getting a zinger in on her, or getting her to act foolish in PRIVATE, in front of their FATHER, or Jaime. He wants Cersei to fall in Tywin's eyes, NOT in the eyes of the realm. Cersei's public reputation and influence is Tyrion's borrowed status. If his sister looks stupid, it endangers his position and hurts the Lannister cause. Tyrion is actually concerned when Cersei acts foolishly and tries to warn her off where he can. He would NOT give Cersei cause to doubt his loyalty by even vaguely hinting that he might have been sharing secrets with Cat, because he knows Cersei & Tywin don't like or trust him and does not want to give either an excuse to cut him off or kick him out. 5. Cersei suspected Ned had some plot against the Lannisters from the moment he accepted the job. She's paranoid about everyone and everything. If Cat does not take Tyrion, it just means the Lannisters are free to start the fight with no interference or repercussions, at a time of their choosing. As it stands, the illusion of peace was only benefitting the Lannisters, who were committing murders against her family in secret, taking out her brother-in-law and crippling her son as well as trying to kill the wolves of her daughters, whose brother saved the lives theirs, and Cat herself. By grabbing Tyrion, she has one of the known conspirators in her possession and a hostage against the Lannisters. That's the situation in her mind, along with the point that if she does not take him, maybe she does not live to reach Winterfell again. Objectively speaking, if Cat does not take Tyrion, it just means that Tyrion will be at court, actively aiding and abetting his sister. It means that when the knives come out after Robert's death, Tywin is not distracted in a war up to his neck, against two Great Houses, and he can concentrate on securing the throne for his grandson. Maybe Ned manages to leave court without being distracted, after he resigns, because Jaime does not confront him over the news of Tyrion's arrest, or maybe the knowledge of the coming confrontation with the Lannisters over Tyrion's arrest influenced his choice to resign. Catelyn arresting Tyrion separated the Lannister siblings and left Cersei without Jaime's protection or Tyrion's brains, and Jaime left without the protection of his court status, while Tyrion began the war under the thumb of the father who did not make use of his brains. Catelyn's action and the reactions to it, actually gave Ned his best chance to block their coup, and gave Tywin enough rope to hang himself. Both opportunities failed because of sheer bad luck and factors neither the Lannisters nor the Starks knew about, not because Catelyn messed things up for them.
If Jon stays in winterfell Theon is done for as he would definitely hold winterfell and beat Theon’s ass allowing Robb to keep hold of the north and ensuring the loyalty of his men
Jon would still be screwed when the red wedding happens. He would have no defense when the Boltons invade Winterfell. He would have to run with Rickon and Bran.
Suggestion: What if Rhaegar married Lyanna instead of Elia: Aerys gets it into His Head about the Song of ice and fire and oders Rhaegar to marry her. The Match becomes one of love and their first son is Jaehaerys (Jon) 🔥🔥🔥🧊🧊🧊
Scenarios I’d love to see: What if Rhaenyra claimed Vermithor instead of Syrax? What if B&C killed Jaeheara instead of Jaehearys? What if Jace became king? What if baby Visenya had lived? What if Rhaenys and Daemon went to kings landing at the start of season 2 and killed Vhagar?
Show version: 1. The story would probably play out much the same, but the greens would be much more careful with Aemond and Vhagar, and the blacks would be more willing to send out Rhaenyra to battle. Verm, Meleys, and Carax would be enough to deter the greens from making any big moves tbh 2. I don’t see much changing, maybe Aemond doesn’t burn Aegon, but he still would become regent until the toddler grows up I don’t really have ideas for the rest
What if Rhaenyra took Gwayne Hightower as a Lover instead of Harwin Strong? What if Lucerys lost his eye *instead* of Aemond? What if both Lucerys & Aemond died in episode 10? What if Aemma Arryn last child, Baelon was born a girl that married Aegon-II? What if Viserys had Aegon II married Rhaenyra *After* Laenor’s death? What if Rhaenyra was like Jaehaerys The Conciliator? What if Rhaenyra Targaryen married Borros Baratheon? What if Viserys-I made Rhaenyra Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death? What if Viserys-I made Rhaenys Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death? What if Viserys-I made Daemon Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death? What if Rhaenyra married Otto after Alicent married Viserys? What if Aegon-III lived longer and made his Daughter Daena hair after the death of his sons? What if Myrcella “Baratheon” married Robb Stark instead Joffrey & Sansa? What if Jamie Lannister was at the Tower Of Joy instead of Gerold Hightower?
Legitimizing Jon was too dangerous. Ned wanted Jon to eventually join the Night's Watch so he'd forsake all family claims, and not Stark family claims, Targyren claims. Jon was the rightful king of Westeros. That's why he said he was a bastard. He need to be as illegitimate as possible. And he wanted Robert as far away from Jon as possible
3:38 if i remember the in universe rules correctly, legitimized bastards do inherent... after all trueborn child have been exhausted so even if jon was legitimized he would still be behind rickon and aria
Love your what if videos! Just spent the last week binging literally all of them. You have an amazing analysis of the characters and it's evident you do your research and know the book and show knowledge thoroughly and you also cite the differences in your videos. As a book reader and show watcher, this tickles my brain alot thinking about them and I love it! Side note/feedback - as a binge watcher, it was a little tricky for me to go through all your videos and find each one that was part of this series. Maybe having all of them have the same color text in the thumbnail or have the same font would help the algorithm pick up on the consistency of the content and videos as a series. I love that you have them organized as playlists on your channel, I didn't notice it until about halfway through my binge tho cus I'm silly :)
Suggestions: - What if Cersei was born a man? - What if Jaime was born a woman? - What if, instead of Strong Boys, we get Strong Girls? - What if Daemon was a woman and married Viserys? - What if The Dragon Twins married Aegon and Aemmond? -What if Daemon became king instead of Viserys or Rhaenys? - What if Aemma claimed a dragon? - What if Aegon was the one who claimed a dragon late while Aemmond had a dragon early? - What if Aemmond died instead of Jahaerys? Alt. what if Jahaera died instead of Jahaerys? - What if Laenor returned? - What if, post-dance, the dragons managed to recover in numbers? - Maegor the Bronze Dragon part 3 - Daeron's Revenge part 3
Ned Stark is always described as an honourable and righteous person who does what he thinks is right. With that reputation, absolutely no one would have doubted it if he had said he found the boy in the rubble of a destroyed village and couldn't bear to let him back because he reminded him of his son Robb. So maybe Catleyn wouldn't have been like that either but would have accepted Jon as a foundling. And he would have ridden with Robb in the rebellion and persuaded Robb to join forces with Stannis.
I would like to point out Catelyn isn't angry because Jon is a bastard. Lords fathering bastard is nothing unexpected. What's angers Catelyn is that Ned brought Jon at home, raises him exactly as he raises his trueborn children, refuses to talk about his mother and on top of that Jon - unlike Cat's children except Arya - has the classic Stark looks. If Ned send Jon to be raised somewhere else Catelyn would've no problem with Jon.
1. What if Rhaenyra married a stark? 2. What if the Cannibal was Rhaenyra’s dragon? 3. What if instead of Alicent, Viserys annulled daemons marriage and married Rhea Royce himself? 4. What if Stannis married a Tyrell? 5. What if Cersei married Ned Stark?
I know the books haven't gotten there yet because Jon is killed in the books. But seeing that Jon is known to be getting freaky with Ygrit so often, what if she gets pregnant and the baby has silver/golden hair? Wouldn't that put a big twist on things?
I think that one of the big reasons that Ned never legitimized Jon was because he was going to send him to the Knight's Watch, where he'd be safe even with the truth. The watch forsake all claim to land, titles, etc in favor of service to the Watch. That's why Ned says that the next time they meet, he'd tell him about Jon's mother; there's no danger left then, if Jon knows he's the true heir, it doesn't matter because he's given up all claim already. It's the best way to guarantee Jon's safety -- like Maester Aemon, there's no point to killing him because he can't take the throne anyway.
I believe another win for Jon being a part of Robbs army, and deterring the red weeding from happening, is that the hound would join their forces and use it as an opportunity to face his brother, while being in peak condition, and the way he could interact with Brianne in this friendly environment would be way more beneficial, they could be good sparring partners for eachother I wonder what would happen with Jaime though, and if his side of the story about his kingslaying would be burried in the secrets of time
Katrina Adopting John effectively removes her trying to send him to the wall as she would insist on John staying at winter fell with Bran still bedridden.
Really good what if. I'm guessing though where you left off off is where the biggest changes might happen that being the Wildlings attack on Castle Black where they either steamroll them with them getting the info from the Mutineers on how little there are at Castle Black as Jon was the one to point this out. or are hit back even more that Robb will receive word from them of what is coming and how the North views them will send a good size force to help them like Stannis most likely under Jon's command. For a WHAT IF, what if Myrcella survived being poisoned? She still suffers it but survives and rests during season 5 with it being pretty much the same up towards the end of the season.
She might succeed to the throne with his help and the moment she did something people did not like, they'd start complaining that she had no business on the throne and her half-brother should have inherited. Their support would grow with every decision she made and every policy she enacted, because every governing decision upsets someone. Eventually the realm would fall to chaos, and to prevent that from happening, Rhaenyra would be sorely tempted to Do Something about her brothers to prevent malcontents from using them as an excuse to dethrone or disobey her. Or one of her supporters, worried about the favors she granted him being reversed, or fearful of losing the prize position he has under her reign, will try to get rid of her brothers for the same reason. These threats are, of course, toward Otto's grandchildren. There is a REASON he opposed Rhaenyra and it was not because girls are icky.
Honestly I think Catelyn if she forced or allowed herself to love John out of guilt for wishing him to die would have shower John with love almost too much love to the point of favoritism that’s why I think John would also form a great attachment to her and try to protect her above other people I think he would go with Rob to War and no take the place of Catelyn but act as a second advisor to Rob and a protector of Catelyn so in this scenario when the red wedding occurs he is unable to protect Rob but quickly grabs Catelyn and Flees Catelyn reading into the situation once they escape immediately send him north to help and protect Bran and Rekan and she flees to either to the Erie or the riverlands in hopes of raising a new army or at least finding more help to find her daughters….John goes North and finds Bran and Rakon and helps them escape and goes with them to the wall
On the Frey point if John was there I think he would probably have gone with Kat when she went to talk with Walder. John being John he’d probably make this whole thing about being her protector, plus in this timeline he’d probably be always be very egar to please Kat. So if he was there I could see Walder insisting John marry one of his daughters on the spot.
I think Joffrey wouldve been way worse to Arya than to Sansa cuz while yes, Sansa has openly despised him and even defied him at times, shes still scared of him. Arya is more aggressive and outspoken which would aggravate Joffrey more and make him want to hurt her more.
@@kenyabrunson4985 Well, Sansa wanted to, but Sandor stopped her. Would have been the same with Arya, if she even made it that far. I don't see Cersei or Joffrey letting her walk around as freely as Sansa. Pretty sure she would be confined to her room, because of her rebellious nature.
Make up your mind whether you are going with book or show on the Karstarks. It was the show that inflated executing Rickard Karstark into a blunder that cost Robb half his army. In the books, Rickard had 300 cavalry, who deserted before Rickard was even arrested, on his orders. Killing him did not cost Robb those men, and sparing Rickard would not have brought them back. Meanwhile, on the show, are you forgetting, like the writers did, that Catelyn set Jaime free to save him from a mob LED BY KARSTARK? If Cat & Brienne don't set Jaime free, Karstark is going to kill him. You have to pick a scenario - either freeing Jaime caused Karstark to kill people but didn't really put Robb in a politically compromising position, or Karstark is the commander of half the army, who lynches Jaime in his cage for killing his son in a breakout attempt.
First of all, if Jon is a Stark, he doesn't need Tyrion's speech about owning his bastard status, so IDK why you would even bring that up. Secondly, regarding the attack of Theon on Winterfell, you're missing the important point, which is that Rodrik left the castle undefended in the books. If Jon is there, Theon is never going to have the chance to put him to death, because there is no way the castle falls. FFS, even the direwolves being out of the godswood would have been enough to stop Theon's tiny advance party from scaling the walls to open the gate. Even if Jon is willing to let Summer & Shaggydog be locked up (and honestly, the moment Summer kills the daggerman, it will be a warm day on the Wall before any adult or adult-adjacent Stark lets anyone lock up the wolves), no way he lets Ghost get the same treatment. Ghost, with or without Summer & Shaggy, will make short work of Theon's party, and on the slim change Theon survives, he spends the war in the dungeons of Winterfell. Having a Stark adult male holding Winterfell flat out cancels the Red Wedding. In the books, it was the news of Bran & Rickon's death that made Robb emotionally vulnerable and led to his marriage. But even if something else had come up, to make him marry Jeyne or someone else, Jon holding Winterfell means that Robb could wipe his ass in public with a Frey banner and the Red Wedding is not going to happen. In the first place, it had nothing to do with Robb's actions, and everything to do with Walder Frey wanting to join Team Lannister and Roose Bolton seeing an opportunity to get rid of his House's archrivals. Neither man is a reckless zealot who is willing to die to bring down a man he resents. A large part of the preparation involved whittling down the number of Stark troops, by sending them into an ambush at Duskendale, or leaving staunch loyalists as a rear guard for the Lannisters to pick off. With Jon in Winterfell, governing the North for Robb, it's going to be impossible to do that effectively. Jon will be much better able to liberate Moat Cailin from the ironborn. He'll be able to rally the half of the North's manpower that Robb left behind, to defend against the invaders, and as a threat that would deter Roose & Walder from trying any shenanigans. Robb's death will mean a vengeful Jon is safe in the North with plenty of troops to seize Bolton lands and castles and force a two front war on the Freys, against the Blackfish to the southwest and Jon to the north. Roose is not going to move unless Winterfell and the Stark presence in the North is eliminated as a focal point of anti-Bolton resistance, because he knows he can only seize power in a Stark absence. So long as Jon lives, and is protecting Bran and Rickon, Roose is going to play the honorable and loyal vassal and Walder is going to piss and moan about the power of the Lannisters and try to cut his losses but will be much too afraid to actually betray Robb.
As part of your what if, I think Jon would’ve gone to Kings Landing With his “dad”. Bran was supposed to go but got thrown out a window. Jon would’ve been a higher valued hostage and possible exchange for Jamie.
If Jon was legalized, then his skill set would have been different. He would have been raised as a soldier with a bare minimum of leadership training, as he would be raised like Eddard. A soldier, who is to either serve his family as a spare, and later on as either a vassal of a small castle (guard tower) or like BlackFish as a unmarried noble. His drive and his skillset would have been vastly diffrent, and the moment where he and Robb plays "Lord Stark" would have been vastly different.
Please do a What if Viserys never cut himself on the throne, Or even better If he claimed another dragon after balerion, if he learned to fight like daemon.
I actually kind of disagree that Robert B would legitimize Jon snow on Ned's request. Robert has a lot of bastards in King's landing and If he legitimized Jon Snow then there might be an expectation that his bastards should be legitimized.. If Jon Arryn was alive not Investigating the legitimacy of Cerci's kids, If Ned asks, then he would probably discourage Robert to legitimize Jon Snow. Even if it was Ned asking. If Jon Arryn was investigating the legitimacy of Cerci's kids, if Ned asks, then he would encourage Robert B to legitimize not just Jon Snow but several of his bastards. Especially if he believed he had been wanted dead by the Lannisters. Legitimizing all of Robert's bastards would make it difficult for Cerci to make her bastard children ascend the throat. Either way it would be very interesting for the story to have gone in either of those directions. Would be an awesome alternate timelins.
I don't think Ned would have legitimized Jon. Being a Stark puts him in more danger He would have recognized him though if Catelyn took a turn. This would have allowed Jon to create a cadet branch once he had legitimate children. Like House Longwaters
They didn’t even need to do all that if he had just told cat the truth and she’d accepted the situation for what it was she was a reasonable woman. Cats issue with Jon isn’t that he’s a bastard (that’s the excuse that socially acceptable in her world) it’s that in her eyes while she’s a smitten teen who was pregnant and was very homesick in the north at first and gives birth at home only for her husband to come home with a baby she thinks is a product of cheating. Cat is Sansa mother and so much like her (that’s there on purpose) he chattered her trust but also her fairytale view of knights as well just if Ned stark of all people could come back with a bastard than all of it must be a lie so she grows more cynical and wary. Jon is a real physical reminder of all these things at once. On top of that Ned demands he’s raised in the castle among her kids odd for a bastard son in their culture and she’s a good wife so there’s nothing she can do about it but give him the cold shoulder. From her PoV Ned deciding that in her eyes probably meant Jon’s mother was important to Ned. Jon never had a chance to be loved by cat bc respect is a big part of their society and Ned doing all of what I just wrote was an insult to cat and by extension river run politically so she kinda could have never accepted him and not broken some promises herself. Legitimizing Jon WITHOUT telling cat the truth first would have only further insulted her and she’d hated him even more we also have to remember she truly doesn’t know him as a person for all she knows he could have secretly been planning on taking rob out if that happened. If that happens her role as a wife and mother fails. Neds whole thing is that he takes the concepts of honor duty and promises to their most glorified noble and almost naive concepts that he took too far, from what was actually smart in reality. He promised Liana he’d never tell that’s his sister and a noble promise and it could be a risk to tell cat however they had a real solid love connection relationship I’m sure she’d been trustworthy and ultimately Lyana is gone. In the end BOTH he and Robert were haunted by her ghost in different ways and they couldn’t let it go. By the time of the series Jon was almost a man things change eventually get more complex. Meanwhile Cat is not gone and if he’d been smart a secret like that would have needed planning and allies. The whole story begins in part cuz Ned didn’t trust cat albeit for what he considers noble and unbreakable concepts but it cost him everything.
Ngl if Jon does stay behind in Winterfell,there is no way he'd go to Torrhen's Square with the 200 men ser Rodrik did Theon's whole plan relied on luring the Stark men away from Winterfell with a diversion If they stay behind and fortify Winterfell,there is no chance in hell Theon is ever taking it Heck with how crafty Jon is and how incompetent Theon and his squids are on land,I wouldn't be surprised if Jon found a way to raid them during the night or decimate them in some other way,especially considering he'd also have Rodrick advising him
So basically yet again, we can blame Cat for all the wrong in a song of ice and fire 😂 jk. There is still talk of whether lady stoneheart will let others know that Robb named and legitimized Jon in the books. Not to mention it’s STILL not canon in books if Jon truly is Rhaegars son. Yeah George has hinted at but it’s still not confirmed in text yet. Either way I’m sure he is and still wonder how that would work since I think Jon is still dead in the books if I’m not mistaken.
To legitimize Jon Ned would have had to go to Robert (since only a king can legitimize a bastard). And Ned certainly didn’t want to draw Robert’s attention to Jon. Robert wasn’t the smartest guy around but if he really thought about Jon he’d probably figure out his true parentage.
Robb does not need Jon's presence to remind him of Ned & his honor. It was almost certainly the reason why he married Jeyne in the books, rather than risk leaving her pregnant with a child who would grow up like Jon did. On the show, where Jon is legitimized, and a beloved son of Catelyn in spirit, the Stark kids are not going to have any examples of the negative consequences of sexual dishonor. They are going to think that Ned, who was so awesome, had an affair and it turned out great, so why should Robb keep to the rules? Even if Jon retains his book morality (which, again, is founded on the treatment he received as the product of an illicit sexual liaison), Robb is unlikely to listen, given the infatuation on display regarding Talisa. Basically, the show is nonsense, and they pulled all the character decisions and changes out of their asses, because they wanted them to happen. The writers flat out ADMITTED this, saying about one completely illogical change defying the books "creatively it made sense, because we wanted it to happen." You could go into the writers' room of the show, put a gun to D&D's heads and tell them to rewrite the show so Jon grew up a welcome and beloved adopted son of Catelyn and the Red Wedding would still happen, because that was the big scene they were looking forward to filming the day they got the idea to make the show.
Ned is a terrible liar and if he was to legitimize he would have to report to Robert who would start asking about Jon and if Robert ever found out that Jon is Aegon he’d have him killed
Coming off from house of the dragon season 2, turns out what we needed is her ancestor Oscar Tully to rise from the grave and teach her about honor and oaths!!
Jon is a bastard because Rhaegar was already married to someone else. Ned never learns if they got married or not, and the books haven't revealed that either, so Ned is being truthful in saying he is a bastard, and keeping the lie simple by just saying Jon is his bastard instead. Ned wouldn't legitimatize Jon because it would call attention to Jon, and Ned wouldn't do that. Ned is all about following the order of things, and this is how bastards are treated in society. Ned doesn't even tell Cat to stop being a dick, he just lets it happen because that's normal and Ned isn't stepping out of bounds.
Nice way to cut out Brienne's lines that make a joke of the idea of him replacing Catelyn. Brienne does not go around blindly serving people with courage, she says a WOMAN'S courage. The courage Catelyn demonstrated was in standing up to two men who claimed to be kings, using her position in society as a noblewoman, and then in getting them both out of the tent and Renly's camp alive and intact. That's not as impressively courageous by the standards of a nobleborn warrior in Westeros. I doubt Brienne gives the time of day to a man who urges her to abandon her king, on whom she is crushing, to save her own life. Furthermore, Jon would NOT have had the same result from going to see Renly that Catelyn did. Renly's court would not be impressed by a bastard-born envoy, decree from Robert or no, and more likely insulted, just as Edmure was insulted when Walder Frey sent a bastard to negotiate his marriage. Renly's favorable deal offered the Starks is like Robb's unborn child: it's not real and it doesn't matter. The only reason they made the change to add it in the show was to make viewers regret the impending deaths more. Renly is treasonously claiming a crown, on the basis of military power. He is playing hardball, and not about to fall over himself to be nice to opponents just because they are protagonists. He also thinks he can get away with anything, hence his claiming the crown over his older brother. This means he is probably not going to respect Jon's status as an envoy, but will demand he bend the knee and acknowledge Renly as a king, imprisoning him or even executing him outright as a rebel. But with Catelyn, he is already putting on a show of chivalry and playing up to the image of a gracious, courteous benevolent king, so he is obliged to be chivalrous to her, as a nobleborn woman, the daughter and widow of two of the highest lords in the realm. He can be nice to Catelyn, without it being seen as weakness, because she's not a threat. Whereas Jon's arrival is a chance to show his strength, and courtesy toward Jon could be seen as weakness or fear of Robb. Catelyn has the experience and social skills to step around the demands to acknowlege Renly as a king and even implicitly scold him and the other lords for playing at war, where Jon would not be allowed to equivocate and his own rebuke seen as an insult demanding a challenge. It's the same thing with Olenna's insults and quips - it's not a sign of her power or brilliance, it's because she's on old woman, and powerless that everyone ignores her opinions.
Do you really think that would make things better, and NOT piss off Catelyn? The cover story, that Jon is his bastard son from an affair he had when they were newly married, is at most, a mild personal embarrassment and a potential threat to her children's inheritance. The truth is FAR worse from Catelyn's perspective. The truth is that Ned lied to the king about a surviving Targaryen offspring. That he has been raising a child of the man Robert hated most, and giving that child the training and education to make something of himself Ned is guilty of treason against the crown. When you are found guilty of treason, you are often attainted and your title and lands forfeit, so there goes Catelyn's children's inheritance, if she isn't implicated as well. Catelyn will be stuck with having to decide what the best thing to do for her family is - turn Ned in, lose the man she loves and hope that's enough to protect her children or keep his secret and live with the same fear of exposure and danger. And this has all the same public issues as the cover story - Catelyn might have the personal satisfaction of knowing Ned did not cheat on her, but that has never really been her concern with Jon. The public embarrassment is still there, as long as the world thinks Jon is Ned's son and that Catelyn does not matter enough to Ned to have him sent away. The threat to her children's inheritance is still there, because if no one knows that Jon is not Ned's son, it does not disqualify him from claiming a place or honors via his supposed paternity. The lie about Jon is actually the kindest thing Ned can do for Catelyn that does not come at Jon's expense.
@@Gunleaver While Ned was right by not telling Cat because it was the safest thing I disagree about her being pissed off if she was told the truth. Catelyn's House's motto is "Family, Duty, Honor", the Tully's values, the order also points what they value the most, with Family having priority over Duty and Honor. By claiming his sister's son as his bastard Ned protected his Family ignoring his Duty to King Robert and renouncing his Honor. While she would be angry at first she eventually would realize that Ned did what he had to do, what a Tully should have done in that situation. It wouldn't change that from that moment she would live in fear of the secret being revealed and that she would have prefered to not being told about it specially the guilt she would feel about Jon.
@@Hektols But Ned is endangering her family by committing treason against King Robert, AND he is bringing in an outsider to possibly threaten her descendants' claims and lives. Family doesn't mean the same thing to nobles. It's more of a collective political unit than simply an affinity for blood kin. The right thing to do for family is what helps the collective family unit, not necessarily individuals, especially marginalized ones, like a bastard child of a dead sister. Endangering the Family for Jon's sake, putting him position to threaten the rights of her kids, these are not appropriate actions by Westeros noble family values. There is a place and role for each member of the family, like they are the crew of a ship, and it's not appropriate to mix those up. Jon's "place" is at some remove, away from the center of power which he may not wield, performing services for his family in accordance with the favors or support he is given. Family as a value would call on the Starks to see Jon is taken care of & given something of a head start in life. Catelyn would disapprove of Ned doing less. "Family, Duty, Honor" meant that Hoster Tully leveraged House Stark's troubles to get their new lord, a teenager mourning his father & brother, and in love with another woman, to take Catelyn as a wife. This could easily have turned into a horrible situation for Cat, and made her a target of her new husband's resentment, and it's largely due to Ned's character that the marriage worked. FDH says Cat must do what is right for her family by marrying the guy with the best title and most power they could get. Even if he's an abuser or rapist or philanderer, along as he will honor the military & political alliance formed by their marriage, then Hoster has done well by Family. FDH had him abort his first grandchild against his daughter's will, and then marry her to a man old enough to be HIS father. FDH says he did the right thing there. When Cat realizes he did this, she understands. She is sad for Lysa, but she gets the logic. So, no, I don't think her family motto or the values it implies she possesses would make her accept Jon if she knew the truth.
I think you should try creating storylike whatif scenarios and just tell a story not make a disscusion not that i disslike this type of videos but this could be better
Yeah, minor problem. He’s still isn’t a Targaryen. He’s still just a bastard because only the king can legitimize a marriage between his son and someone else which means that at no point was Regar ever truly married to the stark girl?
Rhaegars best friend (who was also in love with him) John Connington was Hand for about 6 months around the right time of the war to give the "King's" blessing. It may not hold up under scrutiny, but considering Rhaegar was ready to lead his own rebellion against his father and dethrone him after dealing with Robert, chances are nobody would question it if the old Hand said he'd given authority after a conversation with a mad, potentially dead king. He really wouldn't be a bastard, and even if he was truly a bastard of the Targs, as a legitimised child of the Starks he wouldn't need to be legitimate. He'd have the built in backing of the North, Riverlands and Vale (Littlefinger would always support Cat) for any time he decided to take the throne (if he ever did), and the other kingdoms would probably prefer an honourable guy raised by Ned on the throne than any of the ones that came before him. Though none of it really matters, since Jon not being on the Wall means Sam is probably killed in training, the Wall is chronically under-staffed, Mormont is killed by the White, and everyone will be overrun by the invasion.
Something I’m not seeing mentioned, If Jon was legitimized as a Stark he probably would’ve gone with Ned, Sansa and Arya to Kings Landing. If I remember correctly Bran was supposed to go to Kings Landing, but since he got hurt he didn’t. I think there’s a scene of Arya asking Ned in Kings Landing about if Bran can still come when he gets better and that he can’t be a soldier anymore. So this shows Ned didn’t have a son to take. (Robb was running Winterfell, Bran was crippled, Rickon was too young) but if Jon was a Stark, he’d likely go to court with Ned. It also makes sense because Ned probably wouldn’t want any potential conflict to arise between Robb as Lord of Winterfell and Jon. There’s a potential Jon would be betrothed to Myrcella. All sorts of thing could happen. Though I don’t know if Jon being there is enough to prevent Ned’s undoing. Which could lead to Jon getting killed, or maybe that would be how he begins his Night’s Watch Arc, by getting sent to the Wall after Ned is executed, assuming Jon wasn’t on the block next to Ned. Or Jon is held as a prisoner like Sansa.
The show is utterly ridiculous with their handling of Catelyn's relationship with Jon. In the first place, book Catelyn never wishes Jon dead, and she does not hate him. What she objects to is his presence in Winterfell, his access and proximity to Ned and his being raised as a son of Ned Stark. Not out of jealousy, but because this makes him a threat to her own children & grandchildren's inheritance. It's got nothing to do with Jon, himself or his character, because he can be used by others who are dissatisfied with the Starks in place. They ignore all this explicit characterization and make it all about vicious, petty jealousy, *and then create a scenario which justifies her book fears* in season 6, when despite Sansa being the one to provide the decisive contribution to the battle to retake Wintefell, JON is acclaimed King in the North, while Catelyn's eldest surviving child is sitting RIGHT NEXT TO HIM! What happened in the season 6 finale is EXACTLY what Catelyn was afraid of with Jon being held up in the public eye as Ned's son! We see the advice Jon gives Stannis in Book 5 on winning over the North, telling him how to placate the northern lords, the dangers to avoid in going after the Boltons, how to win over the northmen as their protector and king instead of a stranger claiming rule and where to find troops to help his cause. All of this is a result of being raised and educated by Ned Stark. Alys Karstark comes to Jon, because he's Ned's son. Stannis wants to raise Jon as Lord of Winterfell over Sansa, because he is Ned's son. These things make him attractive to the northerners as a leader and give him the means and opportunity to make a play for Winterfell if the opportunity comes up. The show made an opportunity come up and had Jon take the crown that was originally claimed by Catelyn's son, and all the Stark loyalists and supporters ignored Ned's rightful heir, because she was a woman. Season 6 justifies Catelyn wanting Jon kept far away from Ned and the center of Stark power, from any opportunity to see it in action or learn how it works, away from anyone who might see him in proximity to Ned and associate his rule with Stark continuity.
I'm blocking your channel cause it too me two minutes to figure out what the subject of this video was with your terrible title and your terrible preamble.
Jon marrying Roslyn on Robb's place opens up a whole intriguing new what if. So say he marries, and they do what young newlywed nobles are supposed to do and pop out a kid or 3. Say 2 boys and a girl so there's an heir and a spare and a daughter who could be used for a marriage alliance - also the dragon must have 3 heads so anyone who knows about the prophesy is going to sit up and take notice. The truth about Jon's parentage comes out (mystical vision from Bran, Howland Reed actually showing his face, someone at the citadel stumbling across that journal entry that apparently just anyone could access). Your choices for who to run the country are: 1. Crazy sept-blowing-up-all-her-kids-are-dead Cersie 2. Scary dragon lady with a foreign army who openly admits she can't have kids and obviously has no plans for succession, so you're guaranteed another war when she eventually croaks 3. Jon. Male, married, an heir and a spare, and a daughter some ambitious lord's son could marry one day. Adopted brother of the King in the North. Let's say that to further appease Walder Frey, Edmure did still marry one of his daughters, one of Roslyn's sisters, making Jon brother-by-law to the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands as well as son-by-law to one of the richest lords of the Riverlands (who REALLY wants the respect he could command with his daughter as Queen). Let's say Littlefinger marries and kills Lysa and then invites Catlyn to come help him with her poor orphaned nephew, and she somehow finds out his lies and overthrows him become Lady Protector for Robyn - so Jon is adopted son of the Lady Protector of the Vale. And the Tarley's only followed Cersie because she was Westerossi, so if they had another option, who was male, with a secure line of succession, and a lovely marriable adopted sister close in age to their own heir (because remember Littlefinger gave Sansa back), they would jump at the chance to ally to him and bring the Reach under his banner. Olena would back this as Jon could give her revenge just as well as Dany could and if some other family is going to rise as the new Paramounts of the Reach at least Sansa was a friend of her Margary and could be swayed to influence her new good family to Olena's purposes. Perhaps Olena could even live the rest of her days as Sansa's mentor, recognizing her cleverness and teaching her how to manage her not-terribly-bright husband, teaching her to rule the Reach, shaping her into the next Queen of Thorns.. Dany's going to react one of two ways. Either 'Burn them all!' or she'll want those kids. Either she'll see John's family as the ultimate slap in the face from fate or the perfect solution to her heir problem. In the second scenario I can see her either wanting Roslyn conveniently out of the way so she can marry Jon, join their claims, and adopt his kids - I can't imagine her outright ordering Roslyn's death but I can see her musing aloud (in front of some of her more fanatical followers) how much easier her life would be if Jon was a widower. Or she would want the boys to become orphans she could adopt - so she wouldn't have to share power with John and would still get a couple of Targ kiddies to solve her succession problem. Their parents were traitors and usurpers, but she generously wouldn't blame the kids for that. I can imagine if Jon had a wife and kids to fight for he would go for the throne, not for the power but because having the throne would be the only way he could keep his family safe and together. Because Cersei would just want to wipe them out. And Dany is either gonna kill them all, or kill his Ros, or kill both him and Roslyn and take their kids. One way or another the only way he can keep his young family safe is to take the throne. And then he gets news about the threat in the North from Sansa's nice brother-by-law, Sam, and it becomes even more urgent that he settle things in the South and have the power of the Iron Throne behind him. Sorry for practically writing a fanfic in your comments. You sparked my imagination.
If John was a second son in this timeline wouldn’t he have wanted to come to the capital. In these kinds of situations it’s what the second son would do. Plus he’d probably believe his true mother was from Dawn so he’d also be thinking about meeting Dawnish people as well.
No I didn’t. I addressed the succession when it comes to Robb and Jon within the first four minutes of the video. Robb and Jon were both born near the end of the war and are basically the same age but I do believe that since Robb was conceived in the earliest parts of the war, before Ned even left to fight it at that, he’s the older brother. Not to mention Jon would HAVE to be the younger brother( if we go with the story that he is Ned Starks son and ignore Rhaegar) because Ned had already married and slept with Cat within the first week of them being together and got her pregnant. Then he ran off to war for a year, supposedly found and slept with another woman after he’d done stuff with Cat, only to come back later with another son. If we go with Neds story that Jon is his real son he would have had to have been conceived after Robb because it wouldn’t make sense otherwise as most (Catelyn in particular) believe that Jon was conceived during the war while Robb was before it.
Make up your mind whether you are going with book or show on the Karstarks. It was the show that inflated executing Rickard Karstark into a blunder that cost Robb half his army. In the books, Rickard had 300 cavalry, who deserted before Rickard was even arrested, on his orders. Killing him did not cost Robb those men, and sparing Rickard would not have brought them back. Meanwhile, on the show, are you forgetting, like the writers did, that Catelyn set Jaime free to save him from a mob LED BY KARSTARK? If Cat & Brienne don't set Jaime free, Karstark is going to kill him. You have to pick a scenario - either freeing Jaime caused Karstark to kill people but didn't really put Robb in a politically compromising position, or Karstark is the commander of half the army, who lynches Jaime in his cage for killing his son in a breakout attempt.
I think if Jon was legitimatized and loved by Cat, Ned probably would’ve told Cat about his legitimacy before he left for KL in case if he wasn’t able to make it back.
I’ve honestly never understood why Ned never tells her considering they seem to genuinely trust and love each other and Jon is the only sore point they have
@@benjaminlanigan7254 because her weakness is her fear for her children, and having reagarhs heir in the castle I don’t think would’ve sat well with her
They didn’t even need to do all that if he had just told cat the truth and she’d accepted the situation for what it was she was a reasonable woman. Cats issue with Jon isn’t that he’s a bastard (that’s the excuse that socially acceptable in her world) it’s that in her eyes while she’s a smitten teen who was pregnant and was very homesick in the north at first and gives birth at home only for her husband to come home with a baby she thinks is a product of cheating. Cat is Sansa mother and so much like her (that’s there on purpose) he shattered her trust but also her fairytale view of knights as well just if Ned stark of all people could come back with a bastard than all of it must be a lie so she grows more cynical and wary. Jon is a real physical reminder of all these things at once. On top of that Ned demands he’s raised in the castle among her kids odd for a bastard son in their culture and she’s a good wife so there’s nothing she can do about it but give him the cold shoulder. From her PoV Ned deciding that in her eyes probably meant Jon’s mother was important to Ned. Jon never had a chance to be loved by cat bc respect is a big part of their society and Ned doing all of what I just wrote was an insult to cat and by extension river run politically so she kinda could have never accepted him and not broken some promises herself.
Legitimizing Jon WITHOUT telling cat the truth first would have only further insulted her and she’d hated him even more we also have to remember she truly doesn’t know him as a person for all she knows he could have secretly been planning on taking rob out if that happened. If that happens her role as a wife and mother fails.
Neds whole thing is that he takes the concepts of honor duty and promises to their most glorified noble and almost naive concepts that he took too far, from what was actually smart in reality. He promised Liana he’d never tell that’s his sister and a noble promise and it could be a risk to tell cat however they had a real solid love connection relationship I’m sure she’d been trustworthy and ultimately Lyana is gone. In the end BOTH he and Robert were haunted by her ghost in different ways and they couldn’t let it go. By the time of the series Jon was almost a man things change eventually get more complex. Meanwhile Cat is not gone and if he’d been smart a secret like that would have needed planning and allies. The whole story begins in part cuz Ned didn’t trust cat albeit for what he considers noble and unbreakable concepts but it cost him everything.
@@andapandacongufandathen again he couldn’t trust her at first since he barely knew her. she was his brothers fiancée they had a rushed wedding for alliance that resulted in robb and he ran to the war when he came back he already had jon and the promise. By the time he understood he could trust her and love her things were already sealed and he didn’t plan, IMO, to tell Jon or anyone while robert lived or maybe ever. he only said he would tell jon about he because at the wall like maestre aemon, he wouldnt be at risk.
@@andapandacongufanda🧢🧢🧢🧢no reasonable women wishes harm on a innocent baby period full stop. End of discussion.
So kind of quick input, originally Robb wanted to treat with Stannis, not Renly, because he believed that Stannis was was the rightful heir. It was Catelyn who pushed really hard for trying to form an alliance with Renly. So I think ideally in world where Jon was Robb's second hand and doing the negotiations, Jon would've deferred to Robb's original stance and treated with Stannis.
And on that note, between Jon and Catelyn I don't think Robb allows Theon to go off on his own to try and recruit the Iron Fleet. The Greyjoys still raid the North but without Theon there they aren't able to capture Winterfell.
Not that they arent able just arent stupid enough to try
@@williamsmith8329yuh the only way they got in was Theon’s lies wasn’t it?
@@tristancole8158 If I remember correctly, Theon knew the secret passages to enter the castle and since the castle was largely unguarded its why he was able to effectively lay seige with such few men. In a scenario where Theon never gets the chance to defect, the Ironborn would probably still pillage throughout the North but they'd have no way to break into Winterfell.
@@crimsonECH1DNA Yes, so many simple things Robb could have done to win… telling Edmure their plan to divert Tywin and let Stannis sack King’s Landing, allying with Stannis and accepting his rule from the Iron Throne, not sending Theon to the most rebellious untrustworthy kingdom, when he was literally their prisoner to keep them in line… another sad plot point to add to my list…
its not cat that pushed for renly, its that once robb became king stannis would never accept him as an ally and everyone knew that
As far as his birth order, they could’ve just said he was Robb’s younger (fraternal) twin. Robb has Tully-ish features & Jon has Stark-ish ones. It might be seen as a bit of a curiosity that they don’t look alike at all, but they each look like one of Ned/Catelyn and that should be enough for a feudal society.
The reason why Ned never had Jon legitimized is the same reason he claimed Jon as his bastard in the first place: to protect him. Ned does not want Jon brought to anyone's attention, especially not King Robert's, who is the one who would need to decree the change to Jon's status. That's what is important to keep in mind, that Robert WOULD be fine with many of the things Ned refuses to seek for Jon. Robert would be fine with legitimizing Ned's natural son, he would be fine with Ned bringing him to court when he came to be Hand, and finding Jon a comfortable position, such as a commission in the City Watch, or a government job or a post on a ship in the royal fleet - something like that. He would probably also allow Jon to be seated with the Stark family and royal family at Winterfell, and laughed at Cersei's annoyance. The reason Ned did not pursue any of these options for Jon, at considerable damage to Jon's self-esteem is that he did not want Robert or Cersei or Jaime, all of whom knew Rhaegar to a degree, to have the chance to get a good look at Jon and notice any possible resemblance. Taking him to court would have brought him into contact with even more people who knew Rhaegar, like Barristan, Varys, Pycelle, and the various servants in the Red Keep or Crownland vassals who might have frequently attended court in both Aerys & Robert's reigns. Ned wants the rest of the realm to forget Jon exists.
All the stuff Jon would get as "an actual Stark" would bring attention and it would give people reason to question his backstory. Being high status, being a member of the aristocracy, brings enemies or rivals, or just simply hostile attention from people who want what you have, or are enemies of your family. And people like that, who think they have a chance at getting what Jon has, or at hurting his family, are going to look hard at his origins so they can question his status and position. In a system of nobility, your background and parentage is the key to your belonging and what you are entitled to, and if they don't want Jon to have something, the easiest way is to go poking into his personal history.
In the books, when Robb is discussing his need for an heir, with his brothers seemingly dead and his sisters disappeared or compromised by marriage to the enemy, Catelyn brings up distant cousins, descended from Ned's grandfather's sisters. Robb dismisses them as strangers and instead, declares his intention to legitimize Jon and proclaim him his heir. In a timeline where Jon was legitimized, even with a solemn declaration that Catelyn's children and their descendants come before Jon's, he is still jumping ahead of those distant cousins, descended from Stark women. Aristocrats know every detail of their family trees, and they know EXACTLY where they stand in line to inherit any titles or estates held by an ancestor. These same cousins would exist and the minute Jon is legitimized as a son of Ned Stark, even one whose inheritance rights fall below Arya's, those cousins are going to be protesting and complaining, and looking hard for any detail that might derail his inheritance. And then the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar could be exposed, and Ned is on the hook for a treasonous deception of the king, with the risk of his whole family being attainted.
Catelyn arguing for Jon's legitimacy would not change any of these facts. Ned would refuse her, just as he refused her rather reasonable requests to send him away, to be fostered with another family and his needs provided for.
Here's one: What if when Catelyn was en route to Winterfell after telling Ned about the catspaw, she *didn't* arrest Tyrion, but rather continued on her journey, and followed Ned's orders, including having Theon watched closely? Tyrion's abduction is the fuse that ignited so much of the war. Tywin's ordering Gregor to ravage the Riverlands, Jaime's killing most of Ned's men, Ned's injury, Robert's leaving King's Landing to get away from Cersei's haranguing, Ned's decision to return the girls to Winterfell, which led to his epiphany about the parentage of Cersei's children...
But let's say instead that Catelyn simply greeted Tyrion, and dined with him in order to discreetly question him about the dragonbone dagger... which would have tipped her off that Baelish was lying about the ownership of the dagger, and probably other things as well. Explaining *why* she was traveling incognito is a bit tricky, but she could have deflected by simply saying that she needed to do some sensitive Stark business face-to-face with Ned, and asked for his discretion. Tyrion, who has a surprising steak of decency, probably would have had no problem agreeing.
She has a very easy excuse for why she's there: "I'm on my way to King's Landing for the tourney. Wanted to see my daughters. I'm traveling incognito because I only have the single guard with me, as I didn't want to leave my children undefended."
She could've then, as you said, discreetly questioned him about the dagger and potentially gotten enough conflicting information to doubt Littlefinger. Tyrion would likely offer to escort her to King's Landing himself, since he has his men to help protect them. She could then agree to this and used the public appearance in King's Landing to play up Bran's injuries. Basically proclaiming in front of the Lannisters and Robert that Bran isn't doing so hot and no one knows when/if he'll ever wake up to hopefully keep any other assassins from trying to make a go at him. Alternatively, she could downplay his injuries. Proclaim that he's doing so well and shows signs of waking to try and bait another attempt (Obviously with the intention of being hella prepared) in order to gain more evidence, such as capturing the next assassin alive and questioning them on who they were hired by. Following this, she'd return to Winterfell.
What changes? Well, pretty much everything you suggest is a very likely change. The biggest ones are definitely: Tywin doesn't incite war with the Tullys. So Ned doesn't send half his men to quell the Mountain. Jaime doesn't kill just about all of Ned's men, Ned doesn't get horribly injured. Ned likely doesn't choose to send the girls back to Winterfell, but Robert probably still runs away on his hunting trip. I can see Ned figuring out the parentage of Cersei's kids, just through different means. The epiphany comes after he's seen a lot of evidence and such, when Sansa makes the comment she does. Sansa could still make the comment, which leads to the epiphany. This would lead to Ned giving Cersei the warning to get out of dodge because h o n o r. Difference now, because he's not trying to send his kids away, is that Sansa doesn't go to Cersei in an attempt to stay in King's Landing. So Cersei doesn't make moves to take the girls hostage, which means when the powergrab for the throne happens, Sansa and Arya end up staying together as the Lannisters don't attack the Tower of the Hand. Robert still definitely dies.
Now, here's where things can go a few different ways. With Ned having all his soldiers and such, he might succeed in taking the throne from the Lannisters for just long enough to allow Stannis to arrive. I can see him giving Cersei one final chance to flee with her children before Stannis shows up, which she'd probably take at that point but with the intention of definitely returning to seek her revenge because it's Cersei. Or, possibly, Cersei is killed in the powergrab for the throne and Ned sends her children off with Jaime.
Alternatively, Ned can lose. Perhaps Cersei has her father send in more Lannister soldiers than previously or perhaps the Northern soldiers lay down their swords when Littlefinger takes Ned at knifepoint. Perhaps Cersei/Littlefinger has the soldiers killed off more quietly in the night. Or Jaime is there in King's Landing and manages to overpower enough of the soldiers so Ned ends up losing. Thus, Ned is still captive. However, because his leg isn't injured, he isn't suffering nearly as much in the dungeons because his leg gets infected. And with Tyrion there in King's Landing, Joffery actually lets Ned live and go to the Wall because there's two people that Joffery is actually scared enough of to listen to. That's Tywin and Tyrion.
The first option with Ned winning the powergrab for the throne is more likely in my opinion though, as Catelyn would've likely told Ned at the tourney the things she discussed with Tyrion about the dagger, thus putting doubt on Littlefinger. So Ned doesn't feel obligated to place all his trust in Littlefinger. So he's not betrayed by him in the end, AND he has all his soldiers, AND Cersei isn't tipped off by Sansa that Ned is planning a powergrab.
What if Catelyn followed Ned's instructions closely? Not a damn thing would have changed. None of the problems that befall the Starks are a result of insufficient adherence to those outdated commands of Ned's. The consequences of Catelyn arresting Tyrion (points for accurately calling it that, instead of "abduction", like lots of dumb fans do) are only knowable in hindsight, with the perfect knowledge of a reader, and the role of her actions in initiating the conflict is greatly exaggerated, like the assassination of Franz Ferdinand. All of those factions are not going to war over a single incident, rather the conflict has to do with a lot of other things. Regardless of what Cat does at the inn, Cersei is still passing off her children as Robert's and the rightful heirs to the throne, and every incumbent member of the Small Council knows the truth. Stannis & Renly are not going to let their sister-in-law's bastards jump them in the line of succession, and Cersei is not going to let them live to challenge her children's claims. Tywin is on the edge of old age, and will not wait much longer for a return to power, or let someone else step into what he considers his rightful position controlling the Iron Throne. The Martells are scheming for revenge against Tywin, looking to bring down the Baratheon dynasty that has claimed the throne their nephew was supposed to sit. The Tyrells are greedy for power and to be taken seriously as a Great House and will back any side, no matter how destructive or monstrous who will help them reach their goal. And Varys is plotting a Targaryen restoration through first massively destabilizing the realm, which Littlefinger is also trying to do, to make his own climb to power possible, and to cover up his own malfeasance.
Catelyn doing nothing at the inn of the crossroads stops NONE of that from coming to fruition.
Also, you're mischaracterizing the situation. Asking Tyrion to be discreet is too late. He's already outed her to the crowded common room. Your whole scenario is based not on what Catelyn knows and believes but on what YOU know. Catelyn dining with Tyrion to question him about the dagger is stupid. She has word from what she considers a good source, on his guilt. What on earth would asking him about it do other than to tip her hand if he is guilty, and give him a motive to disappear her on the road, where she is all but alone and vulnerable? If Tyrion is behind the assassination attempt, this is a man who has broken the sacred laws of hospitality and attempted to murder a child on top of it. Either crime alone places him beyond the pale and together make him a monster. Setting aside Catelyn's (entirely reasonable, from what she knows) worst case scenario, WHY would Tyrion accede to her request for discretion?
Tyrion might be decent (highly debatable) but he is a Lannister first and foremost, who loves Jaime more than anyone else in the world, along with Jaime's (younger) children. Tyrion KNOWS his brother is guilty of an ongoing act of treason. He knows what the exposure of Cersei's shenanigans will mean for his brother, his niece and nephew and for House Lannister. And he is all the way on Team Lannister. He is not selling them out, he is going to do whatever he can to actively protect his family from the consequences of their actions. Tyrion strongly suspects that Jaime and Cersei had something to do with Bran's fall. That might even have been part of his motivation for helping Bran with the saddle plans: guilt at what his family has done to the kid, and possibly an attempt to buy some goodwill. But his questioning of Bran on the fall is not a concern for objective justice "though the heavens fall", it is an assessment of the threat Bran might pose with his memories. We will see that he makes a tremendous effort to fight for Joffrey, to protect him and keep him on the Iron Throne, knowing full well he has no right to it. Tyrion is perfectly willing to destroy people who are victimized by his sister's treachery and only standing up for the right thing to do, because to him "Lannister" matters more than "good" or "justified" or "innocent". NO. WAY. Tyrion helps Catelyn AT ALL. Even her mere statement that she is on sensitive Stark business would set off his radar and make him worry exactly what that business is. Like Petyr, he surely knows the Tully words. He can probably guess that she would not have abandoned her sons and home and dashed down to Winterfell with a single aging guard, chosen for his trustworthiness & loyalty over physical ability unless it was hugely important and could not be trusted to a raven or a courier, even a courier as trusted as Ser Rodrik. Something that she had reason to be afraid of its discovery, when her husband is Hand of the King, she is the center of a powerful alliance of Houses that brought down House Targaryen, and her daughter is betrothed to the Crown Prince as a gesture of the King's honor & favor. The ONLY thing that could have her concerned is a threat even higher and closer to the throne than her husband. Like the Queen.
Telling Tyrion ANYTHING would be a huge mistake in reality, and from what Catelyn knows, extremely dangerous. Hell, from what she knew, the man who had tried to have her son killed, had just ostentatiously greeted her in order to alert his family's co-conspirators in the room to her presence. Like that large contingent of Frey guards, whose lord's second son is married to Tywin's sister, or those three Bracken stooges, whose lord's House often chooses sides to oppose the Blackwoods, who are often friendly to House Stark ...
Catelyn rallying the room to her cause and arresting Tyrion is the SMART thing to do AND the cautious and careful thing, given what she knew at the time.
Really, even the view that the resulting war was a disaster for her team is misreading the situation. The Lannisters blundered, and Tywin got lucky that Robert died when he did, or he would have been on the hook for breaking the King's peace, defying Robert's justice, when the king ruled that Tyrion was to be returned with no further violence from the Starks OR the Lannisters, and finally, attacking Beric & Thoros under the royal banner, while on a mission to carry out the King's Justice. Tywin declared war on the crown with his series of responses to Tyrion's arrest and nearly brought the whole realm down on his head like an avalanche. As with Lysa's self-destructive hostility and bungling Tyrion's case, the circumstances that made things go badly for Catelyn & House Stark were unique, involved a lot of bad luck for the Starks, and good luck for the Lannisters, and could not remotely be foreseen by the Starks at the time they made their moves.
@@shaelynmartin1996
"This would lead to Ned giving Cersei the warning to get out of dodge because h o n o r. "
It was not about honor, it was about saving two innocent children and one shitty child from being murdered for their parents' crimes. When Cersei asks how Ned is any better than her or Jaime or Robert, he does not say "I have honor" he says "I do not kill children." Cersei & Jaime tried to murder Bran, Cersei may have murdered Robert's bastards and will go on to do so after he is dead, their father had Rhaegar's children murdered and Robert approved of it, and ordered the murder of a 13 year old girl and her unborn child. These are the reasons why Ned hated the Lannisters when the story started, before Bran fell or he had a hint of any treachery, and why he resigned the Handship and why he hid Jon's parentage and why he had a falling out with Robert over the Targaryen children. This is what Ned is all about - protecting the children, legitimately, unlike the POS Varys who uses that as his excuse for his crimes. It's the reason for most of his DIShonorable acts, like lying about Jon's parents, proclaiming himself an adulterer, changing Robert's will, and ultimately, lying about his treason and confessing falsely to crimes he did not commit and swearing to the legitimacy of Joffrey's parentage - in each case, to protect an innocent child, mostly Jon or Sansa. Ned puts the lives of children ahead of honor every single time, and that's why his kids are going to save the world, and Tywin's fall and fail and have shitty tragic and short lives.
"Sansa and Arya end up staying together as the Lannisters don't attack the Tower of the Hand." Why? They are going to be attacking to get rid of all of Ned's supporters, anyone he might have told the truth about the twincest. Anything like the letter they found he wrote to Stannis. The only way the Lannisters don't attack the Tower of the Hand, slaughter Ned's household and take his daughters hostage is if Ned wins. If he loses, what is the scenario you see where they just ... ignore Sansa and Arya living in their quarters while their father is in the dungeon?
IDK why Catelyn would turn around and return to court with Tyrion. She's been to court with Ned, she's going home because she has things to do. This seems to rest on the absurd hypothetical of Catelyn having a chat with the man who tried to murder her favorite son and Tyrion cheerfully going along with a plan to investigate and expose his beloved brother's crimes that will see Jaime executed for treason, and likely his niece and nephews murdered for their parents' crimes as well. From her perspective, Catelyn knows what she needs to about the dagger. Asking Tyrion about it will only tip his hand that she knows something, and being that she is alone and vulnerable on the road, an easy complication for him to eliminate.
And in reality, Tyrion fights a fucking war against the rightful heir to Robert, on behalf of his loathsome monstrous bastard of a nephew who has no such claim and whom Tyrion knows will abuse his power and probably kill him to boot, all because that was in accordance with the goals of the father & sister who also hate him. He is NOT lifting a FINGER to help Catelyn get one hair closer to finding out the truth of her son's injury, which he suspected from the first was the result of his siblings' actions.
@@Gunleaver You seem to be vastly misunderstanding any of the hypotheticals I proposed. After picking apart a common joke in the fandom about Ned and his relationship to honor.
Cersei attacks the Tower of the Hand when she does in the books BECAUSE she gets tipped off by Sansa that something big is about to go down, due to Ned wanting to ship his daughters back to Winterfell, due to not having enough men to protect them in King's Landing. Yes, if Ned loses the powergrab, the girls are still hostages. However, there's a chance they might not be separated in that instance.
Why would Catelyn go back to court? Because she was just outted by Tyrion in the middle of an inn. If she's not arresting him, that's the most likely excuse she can pull. She's on her way to visit King's Landing for the tourney and to see her daughters before returning to tend to her son.
You seem to be under the impression that Catelyn would just straight up ask Tyrion "Is this your dagger?" in this hypothetical. Or that she would just immediately spill everything to Tyrion about everything. Which is not what I'm supposing. I'm suggesting that, if she doesn't take Tyrion, she is smart enough to come up with a halfway decent alibi for what the hell she's doing at the inn, pretending to not be a noble, with only a single guard. In which case, she's smart enough to be discreet in her conversation when she likely dines with Tyrion. I'm not suggesting the two end up as Sherlock Holmes and Watson.
Catelyn can even disprove Littlefinger's claims with one simple question... "So, tell me about the tourney last year. Who did you bet on to win?" In which the response from Tyrion would be his usual, "My brother. I always bet on my brother to win." This would, in theory, throw everything she heard from Littlefinger into question. You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that in order to discreetly question Tyrion, she needs to show her hand or even the dagger. She doesn't. She just needs to play the noblewoman and ask about the situation in which he apparently won the dagger without making any comment about said dagger. And why would Tyrion suspect anything? He didn't when he first spied her. He was surprised and seemingly happy to see a familiar face after the relatively warm goodbye he had upon leaving Winterfell. He's not "helping" her. Hell, in his mind, he's probably viewing this as a way to mess with her/his sister. Because Tyrion would 100% waltz into King's Landing with Catelyn and smirk at Cersei like "I wonder what we could've spoken of on the way here." Purely to make her panic and act a fool. Because Tyrion loves making his sister act a fool.
The biggest thing, if Cat does not take Tyrion, is that Tywin does not go to war with the Riverlands. No one suspects Ned knowing anything about the children (Other than Littlefinger and our Master of Whispers, most likely) until Ned tells Cersei to leave. Everything comes to head with the powergrab of the throne. Whether Ned wins or loses that is a complete guess based on the various different factors at play.
@@shaelynmartin1996
1. Cersei attacks the Tower of the Hand ITB because she has Ned in custody and most of his men killed in the throne room! The timeline was, Sansa goes to Cersei, who has her taken to a room alone and kept there. Then they have the confrontation in the throne room, the City Watch kills Ned's men and Littlefinger pulls the dagger on him. Then they start murdering Ned's servants and remaining guards, and along the way, send Trant and some guards after Arya and capture Jeyne Poole and toss her into the room where Sansa is. Sansa going to Cersei affected nothing except where she was when the fighting started. All it told Cersei was that Ned was sending the girls home, and that was a decision he made long before Robert died, and even before he confronted Cersei about the twincest. Ned's plans to move against the Lannisters were completely unrelated to his plan to send the girls home. I don't see how the girls would be together, either, because Arya was with Syrio when it went down and Sansa would not have been with her. Sansa would not have escaped had she been kept away from Cersei, and Arya would not have been captured.
2. That's not a reason to go to court. A. she does not need an excuse, she does not answer to anyone present. B. Tyrion is coming from Winterfell. He knows she Is not. That he and his larger party (including the Nights Watch men) overtook her with a single retainer is rather unbelievable. Catelyn's dilemma in that situation is not her cover story, it's the danger that just ramped up by Tyrion catching her in a vulnerable position. Traveling with him would be exacerbating that danger. Getting the men in the room to declare their allegiance and then turning that against Tyrion was a brilliant way to alleviate that danger (even if it was not as immediate as she thought).
3. I don't care how she phrases it. Any way she works the dagger into a conversation is betraying an interest in it. If Tyrion owned that dagger and gave it to a catspaw to murder Catelyn's baby, there is simply NO WAY to mention or hint at it, without alerting him that she knows. You are thinking like someone who knows the truth of Tyrion's involvement, not like someone who believes he is the culprit. There is no way that the truth about the dagger comes out unless one of them has the other totally in their power.
4. Why would Catelyn ask Tyrion about the tourney? This is what I mean about your perspective. It is a good question from our PoV, because we have external knowledge that something fishy is afoot, and hindsight knowledge the Petyr is lying, and so we would go into a conversation trying to get Tyrion to admit his guilt, or to get his view of what is really going on. Why would Catelyn question Tyrion about the outcome of the tourney, when she has already received what she believes is good information from her foster brother, with the Master of Whispers standing right there in the room with them? If Tyrion used the dagger he won at the tourney to arm an assassin to kill her son, why would he admit to her that he won it in the first place? Why would he be honest with her, when he knows that dagger can incriminate her, and in Catelyn's mind, the smart thing for Tyrion to do is deny any ownership? You have to remember, Catelyn is approaching that situation not facing off with the good Lannister, or a decent, cool and witty dude, she is in the room with the man who violated guest right and tried at least once and maybe more, to murder her son. She is going to assume anything he says on that subject would be a lie. She is going to assume that he knows the dagger is evidence of his guilt and would never cop to owning it.
It's the same with Tyrion's reactions. You and I know what his reaction is. Catelyn does not. Catelyn is in the room with a man who has an inexplicable grudge against her family, being involved with Bran falling to his near-death and then sending an assassin to finish him off, for absolutely no reasonable cause, other than to protect his family's schemes. Hell, she does not know about the 'relatively warm goodbye upon leaving Winterfell" because that was in your head. He was greeted at Winterfell with an outright refusal of hospitality which was only grudgingly rescinded after he offered some help to a member of the family. He refused the offer of hospitality before it could be voiced and left the castle to obtain his own lodgings, waiting for Yoren & co to continue the journey. Even if you want to call that relatively warm, Cat does not know. What she does know is that this certain enemy of her family has just blown her cover.
"Because Tyrion loves making his sister act a fool." Prove it. Where or when does he do this? At MOST, he likes getting a zinger in on her, or getting her to act foolish in PRIVATE, in front of their FATHER, or Jaime. He wants Cersei to fall in Tywin's eyes, NOT in the eyes of the realm. Cersei's public reputation and influence is Tyrion's borrowed status. If his sister looks stupid, it endangers his position and hurts the Lannister cause. Tyrion is actually concerned when Cersei acts foolishly and tries to warn her off where he can. He would NOT give Cersei cause to doubt his loyalty by even vaguely hinting that he might have been sharing secrets with Cat, because he knows Cersei & Tywin don't like or trust him and does not want to give either an excuse to cut him off or kick him out.
5. Cersei suspected Ned had some plot against the Lannisters from the moment he accepted the job. She's paranoid about everyone and everything.
If Cat does not take Tyrion, it just means the Lannisters are free to start the fight with no interference or repercussions, at a time of their choosing. As it stands, the illusion of peace was only benefitting the Lannisters, who were committing murders against her family in secret, taking out her brother-in-law and crippling her son as well as trying to kill the wolves of her daughters, whose brother saved the lives theirs, and Cat herself. By grabbing Tyrion, she has one of the known conspirators in her possession and a hostage against the Lannisters. That's the situation in her mind, along with the point that if she does not take him, maybe she does not live to reach Winterfell again. Objectively speaking, if Cat does not take Tyrion, it just means that Tyrion will be at court, actively aiding and abetting his sister. It means that when the knives come out after Robert's death, Tywin is not distracted in a war up to his neck, against two Great Houses, and he can concentrate on securing the throne for his grandson. Maybe Ned manages to leave court without being distracted, after he resigns, because Jaime does not confront him over the news of Tyrion's arrest, or maybe the knowledge of the coming confrontation with the Lannisters over Tyrion's arrest influenced his choice to resign. Catelyn arresting Tyrion separated the Lannister siblings and left Cersei without Jaime's protection or Tyrion's brains, and Jaime left without the protection of his court status, while Tyrion began the war under the thumb of the father who did not make use of his brains. Catelyn's action and the reactions to it, actually gave Ned his best chance to block their coup, and gave Tywin enough rope to hang himself. Both opportunities failed because of sheer bad luck and factors neither the Lannisters nor the Starks knew about, not because Catelyn messed things up for them.
If Jon stays in winterfell Theon is done for as he would definitely hold winterfell and beat Theon’s ass allowing Robb to keep hold of the north and ensuring the loyalty of his men
Jon would still be screwed when the red wedding happens. He would have no defense when the Boltons invade Winterfell. He would have to run with Rickon and Bran.
Suggestion: What if Rhaegar married Lyanna instead of Elia: Aerys gets it into His Head about the Song of ice and fire and oders Rhaegar to marry her. The Match becomes one of love and their first son is Jaehaerys (Jon) 🔥🔥🔥🧊🧊🧊
The best outcome of the series if it wasn't the Game of thrones
Scenarios I’d love to see:
What if Rhaenyra claimed Vermithor instead of Syrax?
What if B&C killed Jaeheara instead of Jaehearys?
What if Jace became king?
What if baby Visenya had lived?
What if Rhaenys and Daemon went to kings landing at the start of season 2 and killed Vhagar?
What if Jace claimed Vermithor?
Show version:
1. The story would probably play out much the same, but the greens would be much more careful with Aemond and Vhagar, and the blacks would be more willing to send out Rhaenyra to battle.
Verm, Meleys, and Carax would be enough to deter the greens from making any big moves tbh
2. I don’t see much changing, maybe Aemond doesn’t burn Aegon, but he still would become regent until the toddler grows up
I don’t really have ideas for the rest
What if Rhaenyra took Gwayne Hightower as a Lover instead of Harwin Strong?
What if Lucerys lost his eye *instead* of Aemond?
What if both Lucerys & Aemond died in episode 10?
What if Aemma Arryn last child, Baelon was born a girl that married Aegon-II?
What if Viserys had Aegon II married Rhaenyra *After* Laenor’s death?
What if Rhaenyra was like Jaehaerys The Conciliator?
What if Rhaenyra Targaryen married Borros Baratheon?
What if Viserys-I made Rhaenyra Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death?
What if Viserys-I made Rhaenys Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death?
What if Viserys-I made Daemon Hand Of The King after Otto’s dismissed/Lyonel’s death?
What if Rhaenyra married Otto after Alicent married Viserys?
What if Aegon-III lived longer and made his Daughter Daena hair after the death of his sons?
What if Myrcella “Baratheon” married Robb Stark instead Joffrey & Sansa?
What if Jamie Lannister was at the Tower Of Joy instead of Gerold Hightower?
This is the ‘what if’ I have been waiting for! Thank you.
Legitimizing Jon was too dangerous. Ned wanted Jon to eventually join the Night's Watch so he'd forsake all family claims, and not Stark family claims, Targyren claims. Jon was the rightful king of Westeros. That's why he said he was a bastard. He need to be as illegitimate as possible. And he wanted Robert as far away from Jon as possible
3:38 if i remember the in universe rules correctly, legitimized bastards do inherent... after all trueborn child have been exhausted so even if jon was legitimized he would still be behind rickon and aria
If legitimatized he falls behind Robb. Just because he wasn’t a true born before doesn’t change the line of succession one he becomes Jon stark
Suggestion: What if Rob survived the red wedding
Love your what if videos! Just spent the last week binging literally all of them. You have an amazing analysis of the characters and it's evident you do your research and know the book and show knowledge thoroughly and you also cite the differences in your videos. As a book reader and show watcher, this tickles my brain alot thinking about them and I love it!
Side note/feedback - as a binge watcher, it was a little tricky for me to go through all your videos and find each one that was part of this series. Maybe having all of them have the same color text in the thumbnail or have the same font would help the algorithm pick up on the consistency of the content and videos as a series. I love that you have them organized as playlists on your channel, I didn't notice it until about halfway through my binge tho cus I'm silly :)
Love your content! Thanks For this! 🔥🔥🔥🔥
Suggestions:
- What if Cersei was born a man?
- What if Jaime was born a woman?
- What if, instead of Strong Boys, we get Strong Girls?
- What if Daemon was a woman and married Viserys?
- What if The Dragon Twins married Aegon and Aemmond?
-What if Daemon became king instead of Viserys or Rhaenys?
- What if Aemma claimed a dragon?
- What if Aegon was the one who claimed a dragon late while Aemmond had a dragon early?
- What if Aemmond died instead of Jahaerys? Alt. what if Jahaera died instead of Jahaerys?
- What if Laenor returned?
- What if, post-dance, the dragons managed to recover in numbers?
- Maegor the Bronze Dragon part 3
- Daeron's Revenge part 3
Nope we need Dearons revenge part 3
@@dellavonta187 ah yes! That one too. Lemme add it to the list
Ned Stark is always described as an honourable and righteous person who does what he thinks is right.
With that reputation, absolutely no one would have doubted it if he had said he found the boy in the rubble of a destroyed village and couldn't bear to let him back because he reminded him of his son Robb.
So maybe Catleyn wouldn't have been like that either but would have accepted Jon as a foundling.
And he would have ridden with Robb in the rebellion and persuaded Robb to join forces with Stannis.
I would like to point out Catelyn isn't angry because Jon is a bastard. Lords fathering bastard is nothing unexpected. What's angers Catelyn is that Ned brought Jon at home, raises him exactly as he raises his trueborn children, refuses to talk about his mother and on top of that Jon - unlike Cat's children except Arya - has the classic Stark looks.
If Ned send Jon to be raised somewhere else Catelyn would've no problem with Jon.
Book Jon turns 14 before Rob does.
1. What if Rhaenyra married a stark?
2. What if the Cannibal was Rhaenyra’s dragon?
3. What if instead of Alicent, Viserys annulled daemons marriage and married Rhea Royce himself?
4. What if Stannis married a Tyrell?
5. What if Cersei married Ned Stark?
I just know that Viserys is getting a stroke if he finds out his kid claimed the Cannibal lol
cersei with ned is a match made in valyria ngl
Another effect of this is that just about everything that can go bad at the wall does.
What if Howland Reed was in the story and revealed Jon's true identity right after Ned died?
What if tommen was born first instead of Joffrey
hahahhah got me with "bundle of snow"
I know the books haven't gotten there yet because Jon is killed in the books. But seeing that Jon is known to be getting freaky with Ygrit so often, what if she gets pregnant and the baby has silver/golden hair? Wouldn't that put a big twist on things?
What if Mysaria and Daemon has a son part 2?
I think that one of the big reasons that Ned never legitimized Jon was because he was going to send him to the Knight's Watch, where he'd be safe even with the truth. The watch forsake all claim to land, titles, etc in favor of service to the Watch. That's why Ned says that the next time they meet, he'd tell him about Jon's mother; there's no danger left then, if Jon knows he's the true heir, it doesn't matter because he's given up all claim already. It's the best way to guarantee Jon's safety -- like Maester Aemon, there's no point to killing him because he can't take the throne anyway.
NO, that horror happen because you were stupid and kidnaped Tyrion, son of Tywin.
THE KAREN IN THE NORTH!!!
I believe another win for Jon being a part of Robbs army, and deterring the red weeding from happening, is that the hound would join their forces and use it as an opportunity to face his brother, while being in peak condition, and the way he could interact with Brianne in this friendly environment would be way more beneficial, they could be good sparring partners for eachother
I wonder what would happen with Jaime though, and if his side of the story about his kingslaying would be burried in the secrets of time
Katrina Adopting John effectively removes her trying to send him to the wall as she would insist on John staying at winter fell with Bran still bedridden.
Katrina?
Really good what if. I'm guessing though where you left off off is where the biggest changes might happen that being the Wildlings attack on Castle Black where they either steamroll them with them getting the info from the Mutineers on how little there are at Castle Black as Jon was the one to point this out. or are hit back even more that Robb will receive word from them of what is coming and how the North views them will send a good size force to help them like Stannis most likely under Jon's command.
For a WHAT IF, what if Myrcella survived being poisoned? She still suffers it but survives and rests during season 5 with it being pretty much the same up towards the end of the season.
What if Laenor stayed?? denied their plan to fight for Jace, Luke & Joffrey???
What if Otto Hightower actually supported Rhaenyra's claim
She might succeed to the throne with his help and the moment she did something people did not like, they'd start complaining that she had no business on the throne and her half-brother should have inherited. Their support would grow with every decision she made and every policy she enacted, because every governing decision upsets someone. Eventually the realm would fall to chaos, and to prevent that from happening, Rhaenyra would be sorely tempted to Do Something about her brothers to prevent malcontents from using them as an excuse to dethrone or disobey her. Or one of her supporters, worried about the favors she granted him being reversed, or fearful of losing the prize position he has under her reign, will try to get rid of her brothers for the same reason. These threats are, of course, toward Otto's grandchildren.
There is a REASON he opposed Rhaenyra and it was not because girls are icky.
Suggestion what if the white walkers attacked during the dance? Let’s say after b&c
Bran and Rickon only went North to get Jon’s support and refuge, if he was already with then they would probably go back to Robb.
What if daemon and caraxes lived what if the tragedy at summer hall never happened what if viserys danys brother was good
My guy sneaking in a Mewtwo quote
Honestly I think Catelyn if she forced or allowed herself to love John out of guilt for wishing him to die would have shower John with love almost too much love to the point of favoritism that’s why I think John would also form a great attachment to her and try to protect her above other people I think he would go with Rob to War and no take the place of Catelyn but act as a second advisor to Rob and a protector of Catelyn so in this scenario when the red wedding occurs he is unable to protect Rob but quickly grabs Catelyn and Flees Catelyn reading into the situation once they escape immediately send him north to help and protect Bran and Rekan and she flees to either to the Erie or the riverlands in hopes of raising a new army or at least finding more help to find her daughters….John goes North and finds Bran and Rakon and helps them escape and goes with them to the wall
A little bundle of Snow. 😂😅
Three eyed raven would have given to Jon the Valyrian sword DarkSister
With John & Ghost present the fry/red wedding never happens as the Mountain is caught between the Stark brothers & their wolfs.
On the Frey point if John was there I think he would probably have gone with Kat when she went to talk with Walder. John being John he’d probably make this whole thing about being her protector, plus in this timeline he’d probably be always be very egar to please Kat. So if he was there I could see Walder insisting John marry one of his daughters on the spot.
What if Sansa was already betrothed before king Robert visited Winterfell and Arya ended up the one betrothed to Joffrey
Arya would have pushed Joffrey off that battlement for cutting off her father's head. And for getting Mycah killed.😂
I think Joffrey wouldve been way worse to Arya than to Sansa cuz while yes, Sansa has openly despised him and even defied him at times, shes still scared of him. Arya is more aggressive and outspoken which would aggravate Joffrey more and make him want to hurt her more.
@@kenyabrunson4985 Well, Sansa wanted to, but Sandor stopped her. Would have been the same with Arya, if she even made it that far. I don't see Cersei or Joffrey letting her walk around as freely as Sansa. Pretty sure she would be confined to her room, because of her rebellious nature.
@@QueenOfAndralia Arya would have probably been dead. Cersei could barely control his temper and Arya would certainly provoke him at every turn.
Make up your mind whether you are going with book or show on the Karstarks. It was the show that inflated executing Rickard Karstark into a blunder that cost Robb half his army. In the books, Rickard had 300 cavalry, who deserted before Rickard was even arrested, on his orders. Killing him did not cost Robb those men, and sparing Rickard would not have brought them back. Meanwhile, on the show, are you forgetting, like the writers did, that Catelyn set Jaime free to save him from a mob LED BY KARSTARK? If Cat & Brienne don't set Jaime free, Karstark is going to kill him. You have to pick a scenario - either freeing Jaime caused Karstark to kill people but didn't really put Robb in a politically compromising position, or Karstark is the commander of half the army, who lynches Jaime in his cage for killing his son in a breakout attempt.
First of all, if Jon is a Stark, he doesn't need Tyrion's speech about owning his bastard status, so IDK why you would even bring that up. Secondly, regarding the attack of Theon on Winterfell, you're missing the important point, which is that Rodrik left the castle undefended in the books. If Jon is there, Theon is never going to have the chance to put him to death, because there is no way the castle falls. FFS, even the direwolves being out of the godswood would have been enough to stop Theon's tiny advance party from scaling the walls to open the gate. Even if Jon is willing to let Summer & Shaggydog be locked up (and honestly, the moment Summer kills the daggerman, it will be a warm day on the Wall before any adult or adult-adjacent Stark lets anyone lock up the wolves), no way he lets Ghost get the same treatment. Ghost, with or without Summer & Shaggy, will make short work of Theon's party, and on the slim change Theon survives, he spends the war in the dungeons of Winterfell.
Having a Stark adult male holding Winterfell flat out cancels the Red Wedding. In the books, it was the news of Bran & Rickon's death that made Robb emotionally vulnerable and led to his marriage. But even if something else had come up, to make him marry Jeyne or someone else, Jon holding Winterfell means that Robb could wipe his ass in public with a Frey banner and the Red Wedding is not going to happen. In the first place, it had nothing to do with Robb's actions, and everything to do with Walder Frey wanting to join Team Lannister and Roose Bolton seeing an opportunity to get rid of his House's archrivals. Neither man is a reckless zealot who is willing to die to bring down a man he resents. A large part of the preparation involved whittling down the number of Stark troops, by sending them into an ambush at Duskendale, or leaving staunch loyalists as a rear guard for the Lannisters to pick off. With Jon in Winterfell, governing the North for Robb, it's going to be impossible to do that effectively. Jon will be much better able to liberate Moat Cailin from the ironborn. He'll be able to rally the half of the North's manpower that Robb left behind, to defend against the invaders, and as a threat that would deter Roose & Walder from trying any shenanigans. Robb's death will mean a vengeful Jon is safe in the North with plenty of troops to seize Bolton lands and castles and force a two front war on the Freys, against the Blackfish to the southwest and Jon to the north. Roose is not going to move unless Winterfell and the Stark presence in the North is eliminated as a focal point of anti-Bolton resistance, because he knows he can only seize power in a Stark absence. So long as Jon lives, and is protecting Bran and Rickon, Roose is going to play the honorable and loyal vassal and Walder is going to piss and moan about the power of the Lannisters and try to cut his losses but will be much too afraid to actually betray Robb.
As part of your what if, I think Jon would’ve gone to Kings Landing With his “dad”. Bran was supposed to go but got thrown out a window. Jon would’ve been a higher valued hostage and possible exchange for Jamie.
No Jon would have been still a bastard. Bringing him would have been an insult. He likely would have remained in the North still.
Real question: what if Arya married Gendry?
What if aerys II didn't go mad
If Jon was legalized, then his skill set would have been different. He would have been raised as a soldier with a bare minimum of leadership training, as he would be raised like Eddard. A soldier, who is to either serve his family as a spare, and later on as either a vassal of a small castle (guard tower) or like BlackFish as a unmarried noble.
His drive and his skillset would have been vastly diffrent, and the moment where he and Robb plays "Lord Stark" would have been vastly different.
Please do a What if Viserys never cut himself on the throne, Or even better If he claimed another dragon after balerion, if he learned to fight like daemon.
I actually kind of disagree that Robert B would legitimize Jon snow on Ned's request. Robert has a lot of bastards in King's landing and If he legitimized Jon Snow then there might be an expectation that his bastards should be legitimized..
If Jon Arryn was alive not Investigating the legitimacy of Cerci's kids, If Ned asks, then he would probably discourage Robert to legitimize Jon Snow. Even if it was Ned asking.
If Jon Arryn was investigating the legitimacy of Cerci's kids, if Ned asks, then he would encourage Robert B to legitimize not just Jon Snow but several of his bastards. Especially if he believed he had been wanted dead by the Lannisters. Legitimizing all of Robert's bastards would make it difficult for Cerci to make her bastard children ascend the throat.
Either way it would be very interesting for the story to have gone in either of those directions. Would be an awesome alternate timelins.
haven’t watched the first season of the show, or read the books in a very long time, but is Theon treated better or Jon?
Didn't he also do a video of what if jon didn't join nights watch, both are basically the same thing, so why don't both have the same stories?
I don't think Ned would have legitimized Jon. Being a Stark puts him in more danger
He would have recognized him though if Catelyn took a turn. This would have allowed Jon to create a cadet branch once he had legitimate children. Like House Longwaters
Maybe, if Robb still marries Talysa maybe, Jon could told that betrothal his first bron daughter to one of walder grandson or Great Grandsons
They didn’t even need to do all that if he had just told cat the truth and she’d accepted the situation for what it was she was a reasonable woman. Cats issue with Jon isn’t that he’s a bastard (that’s the excuse that socially acceptable in her world) it’s that in her eyes while she’s a smitten teen who was pregnant and was very homesick in the north at first and gives birth at home only for her husband to come home with a baby she thinks is a product of cheating. Cat is Sansa mother and so much like her (that’s there on purpose) he chattered her trust but also her fairytale view of knights as well just if Ned stark of all people could come back with a bastard than all of it must be a lie so she grows more cynical and wary. Jon is a real physical reminder of all these things at once. On top of that Ned demands he’s raised in the castle among her kids odd for a bastard son in their culture and she’s a good wife so there’s nothing she can do about it but give him the cold shoulder. From her PoV Ned deciding that in her eyes probably meant Jon’s mother was important to Ned. Jon never had a chance to be loved by cat bc respect is a big part of their society and Ned doing all of what I just wrote was an insult to cat and by extension river run politically so she kinda could have never accepted him and not broken some promises herself.
Legitimizing Jon WITHOUT telling cat the truth first would have only further insulted her and she’d hated him even more we also have to remember she truly doesn’t know him as a person for all she knows he could have secretly been planning on taking rob out if that happened. If that happens her role as a wife and mother fails.
Neds whole thing is that he takes the concepts of honor duty and promises to their most glorified noble and almost naive concepts that he took too far, from what was actually smart in reality. He promised Liana he’d never tell that’s his sister and a noble promise and it could be a risk to tell cat however they had a real solid love connection relationship I’m sure she’d been trustworthy and ultimately Lyana is gone. In the end BOTH he and Robert were haunted by her ghost in different ways and they couldn’t let it go. By the time of the series Jon was almost a man things change eventually get more complex. Meanwhile Cat is not gone and if he’d been smart a secret like that would have needed planning and allies. The whole story begins in part cuz Ned didn’t trust cat albeit for what he considers noble and unbreakable concepts but it cost him everything.
what if tywin never dies, what if daemon never says heir for a day
Ngl if Jon does stay behind in Winterfell,there is no way he'd go to Torrhen's Square with the 200 men ser Rodrik did
Theon's whole plan relied on luring the Stark men away from Winterfell with a diversion
If they stay behind and fortify Winterfell,there is no chance in hell Theon is ever taking it
Heck with how crafty Jon is and how incompetent Theon and his squids are on land,I wouldn't be surprised if Jon found a way to raid them during the night or decimate them in some other way,especially considering he'd also have Rodrick advising him
So basically yet again, we can blame Cat for all the wrong in a song of ice and fire 😂 jk. There is still talk of whether lady stoneheart will let others know that Robb named and legitimized Jon in the books. Not to mention it’s STILL not canon in books if Jon truly is Rhaegars son. Yeah George has hinted at but it’s still not confirmed in text yet. Either way I’m sure he is and still wonder how that would work since I think Jon is still dead in the books if I’m not mistaken.
To legitimize Jon Ned would have had to go to Robert (since only a king can legitimize a bastard). And Ned certainly didn’t want to draw Robert’s attention to Jon. Robert wasn’t the smartest guy around but if he really thought about Jon he’d probably figure out his true parentage.
Yo can you do a what if for if renly didn't die or supported stannis
I think robb leaves jon in winterfel while he rides south
🔥 vid
Robb does not need Jon's presence to remind him of Ned & his honor. It was almost certainly the reason why he married Jeyne in the books, rather than risk leaving her pregnant with a child who would grow up like Jon did. On the show, where Jon is legitimized, and a beloved son of Catelyn in spirit, the Stark kids are not going to have any examples of the negative consequences of sexual dishonor. They are going to think that Ned, who was so awesome, had an affair and it turned out great, so why should Robb keep to the rules? Even if Jon retains his book morality (which, again, is founded on the treatment he received as the product of an illicit sexual liaison), Robb is unlikely to listen, given the infatuation on display regarding Talisa.
Basically, the show is nonsense, and they pulled all the character decisions and changes out of their asses, because they wanted them to happen. The writers flat out ADMITTED this, saying about one completely illogical change defying the books "creatively it made sense, because we wanted it to happen." You could go into the writers' room of the show, put a gun to D&D's heads and tell them to rewrite the show so Jon grew up a welcome and beloved adopted son of Catelyn and the Red Wedding would still happen, because that was the big scene they were looking forward to filming the day they got the idea to make the show.
part 3!!! off what if rhaneys killed the greens
Catelyn was not a trustworthy person and Ned knew it. That’s why Ned didn’t tell her.
What If rhaenys killed both aegon II and aemond at the battle of rook's rest
Ned is a terrible liar and if he was to legitimize he would have to report to Robert who would start asking about Jon and if Robert ever found out that Jon is Aegon he’d have him killed
Coming off from house of the dragon season 2, turns out what we needed is her ancestor Oscar Tully to rise from the grave and teach her about honor and oaths!!
What if ned told Jon who is mother was...the actual and complete truth
How would jon convince robb is catilyn was unable to?
I really what know what you think would happen if Ned and Cersei had been married instead of him and Cat :o
I hare her the most out of all the GOT characters…..love the Actress tho
Liberty king
What if Robert died at the Battle of the Bells?
Jon is a bastard because Rhaegar was already married to someone else. Ned never learns if they got married or not, and the books haven't revealed that either, so Ned is being truthful in saying he is a bastard, and keeping the lie simple by just saying Jon is his bastard instead. Ned wouldn't legitimatize Jon because it would call attention to Jon, and Ned wouldn't do that. Ned is all about following the order of things, and this is how bastards are treated in society. Ned doesn't even tell Cat to stop being a dick, he just lets it happen because that's normal and Ned isn't stepping out of bounds.
What if Aegon6/John was passed off as Bengins son.
Nice way to cut out Brienne's lines that make a joke of the idea of him replacing Catelyn. Brienne does not go around blindly serving people with courage, she says a WOMAN'S courage. The courage Catelyn demonstrated was in standing up to two men who claimed to be kings, using her position in society as a noblewoman, and then in getting them both out of the tent and Renly's camp alive and intact. That's not as impressively courageous by the standards of a nobleborn warrior in Westeros. I doubt Brienne gives the time of day to a man who urges her to abandon her king, on whom she is crushing, to save her own life.
Furthermore, Jon would NOT have had the same result from going to see Renly that Catelyn did. Renly's court would not be impressed by a bastard-born envoy, decree from Robert or no, and more likely insulted, just as Edmure was insulted when Walder Frey sent a bastard to negotiate his marriage. Renly's favorable deal offered the Starks is like Robb's unborn child: it's not real and it doesn't matter. The only reason they made the change to add it in the show was to make viewers regret the impending deaths more. Renly is treasonously claiming a crown, on the basis of military power. He is playing hardball, and not about to fall over himself to be nice to opponents just because they are protagonists. He also thinks he can get away with anything, hence his claiming the crown over his older brother. This means he is probably not going to respect Jon's status as an envoy, but will demand he bend the knee and acknowledge Renly as a king, imprisoning him or even executing him outright as a rebel. But with Catelyn, he is already putting on a show of chivalry and playing up to the image of a gracious, courteous benevolent king, so he is obliged to be chivalrous to her, as a nobleborn woman, the daughter and widow of two of the highest lords in the realm. He can be nice to Catelyn, without it being seen as weakness, because she's not a threat. Whereas Jon's arrival is a chance to show his strength, and courtesy toward Jon could be seen as weakness or fear of Robb. Catelyn has the experience and social skills to step around the demands to acknowlege Renly as a king and even implicitly scold him and the other lords for playing at war, where Jon would not be allowed to equivocate and his own rebuke seen as an insult demanding a challenge. It's the same thing with Olenna's insults and quips - it's not a sign of her power or brilliance, it's because she's on old woman, and powerless that everyone ignores her opinions.
What if rhaena had tamed vhagar instead of aemond
What if Ned didn’t lie about Jon snow parentage
Jon Snow dead because Robert would've killed him.
Ned should've told his wife the truth about his nephew .
Do you really think that would make things better, and NOT piss off Catelyn? The cover story, that Jon is his bastard son from an affair he had when they were newly married, is at most, a mild personal embarrassment and a potential threat to her children's inheritance. The truth is FAR worse from Catelyn's perspective. The truth is that Ned lied to the king about a surviving Targaryen offspring. That he has been raising a child of the man Robert hated most, and giving that child the training and education to make something of himself Ned is guilty of treason against the crown. When you are found guilty of treason, you are often attainted and your title and lands forfeit, so there goes Catelyn's children's inheritance, if she isn't implicated as well. Catelyn will be stuck with having to decide what the best thing to do for her family is - turn Ned in, lose the man she loves and hope that's enough to protect her children or keep his secret and live with the same fear of exposure and danger. And this has all the same public issues as the cover story - Catelyn might have the personal satisfaction of knowing Ned did not cheat on her, but that has never really been her concern with Jon. The public embarrassment is still there, as long as the world thinks Jon is Ned's son and that Catelyn does not matter enough to Ned to have him sent away. The threat to her children's inheritance is still there, because if no one knows that Jon is not Ned's son, it does not disqualify him from claiming a place or honors via his supposed paternity.
The lie about Jon is actually the kindest thing Ned can do for Catelyn that does not come at Jon's expense.
@@Gunleaver While Ned was right by not telling Cat because it was the safest thing I disagree about her being pissed off if she was told the truth. Catelyn's House's motto is "Family, Duty, Honor", the Tully's values, the order also points what they value the most, with Family having priority over Duty and Honor. By claiming his sister's son as his bastard Ned protected his Family ignoring his Duty to King Robert and renouncing his Honor. While she would be angry at first she eventually would realize that Ned did what he had to do, what a Tully should have done in that situation. It wouldn't change that from that moment she would live in fear of the secret being revealed and that she would have prefered to not being told about it specially the guilt she would feel about Jon.
@@Hektols But Ned is endangering her family by committing treason against King Robert, AND he is bringing in an outsider to possibly threaten her descendants' claims and lives. Family doesn't mean the same thing to nobles. It's more of a collective political unit than simply an affinity for blood kin. The right thing to do for family is what helps the collective family unit, not necessarily individuals, especially marginalized ones, like a bastard child of a dead sister. Endangering the Family for Jon's sake, putting him position to threaten the rights of her kids, these are not appropriate actions by Westeros noble family values. There is a place and role for each member of the family, like they are the crew of a ship, and it's not appropriate to mix those up. Jon's "place" is at some remove, away from the center of power which he may not wield, performing services for his family in accordance with the favors or support he is given. Family as a value would call on the Starks to see Jon is taken care of & given something of a head start in life. Catelyn would disapprove of Ned doing less.
"Family, Duty, Honor" meant that Hoster Tully leveraged House Stark's troubles to get their new lord, a teenager mourning his father & brother, and in love with another woman, to take Catelyn as a wife. This could easily have turned into a horrible situation for Cat, and made her a target of her new husband's resentment, and it's largely due to Ned's character that the marriage worked. FDH says Cat must do what is right for her family by marrying the guy with the best title and most power they could get. Even if he's an abuser or rapist or philanderer, along as he will honor the military & political alliance formed by their marriage, then Hoster has done well by Family. FDH had him abort his first grandchild against his daughter's will, and then marry her to a man old enough to be HIS father. FDH says he did the right thing there. When Cat realizes he did this, she understands. She is sad for Lysa, but she gets the logic.
So, no, I don't think her family motto or the values it implies she possesses would make her accept Jon if she knew the truth.
What if Cat didn't have any children with Ned?
Jon wouldn't be ahead of bran. Legitimized bastards come behind sisters, let alone younger brothers
I think you should try creating storylike whatif scenarios and just tell a story not make a disscusion not that i disslike this type of videos but this could be better
Yeah, minor problem. He’s still isn’t a Targaryen. He’s still just a bastard because only the king can legitimize a marriage between his son and someone else which means that at no point was Regar ever truly married to the stark girl?
Rhaegars best friend (who was also in love with him) John Connington was Hand for about 6 months around the right time of the war to give the "King's" blessing. It may not hold up under scrutiny, but considering Rhaegar was ready to lead his own rebellion against his father and dethrone him after dealing with Robert, chances are nobody would question it if the old Hand said he'd given authority after a conversation with a mad, potentially dead king. He really wouldn't be a bastard, and even if he was truly a bastard of the Targs, as a legitimised child of the Starks he wouldn't need to be legitimate. He'd have the built in backing of the North, Riverlands and Vale (Littlefinger would always support Cat) for any time he decided to take the throne (if he ever did), and the other kingdoms would probably prefer an honourable guy raised by Ned on the throne than any of the ones that came before him.
Though none of it really matters, since Jon not being on the Wall means Sam is probably killed in training, the Wall is chronically under-staffed, Mormont is killed by the White, and everyone will be overrun by the invasion.
Jon was pretty entitled in the show so this would make him more of a prick haha
ned stark couldn't even trust his own wife
women ☕
Something I’m not seeing mentioned, If Jon was legitimized as a Stark he probably would’ve gone with Ned, Sansa and Arya to Kings Landing. If I remember correctly Bran was supposed to go to Kings Landing, but since he got hurt he didn’t. I think there’s a scene of Arya asking Ned in Kings Landing about if Bran can still come when he gets better and that he can’t be a soldier anymore.
So this shows Ned didn’t have a son to take. (Robb was running Winterfell, Bran was crippled, Rickon was too young) but if Jon was a Stark, he’d likely go to court with Ned. It also makes sense because Ned probably wouldn’t want any potential conflict to arise between Robb as Lord of Winterfell and Jon.
There’s a potential Jon would be betrothed to Myrcella. All sorts of thing could happen. Though I don’t know if Jon being there is enough to prevent Ned’s undoing. Which could lead to Jon getting killed, or maybe that would be how he begins his Night’s Watch Arc, by getting sent to the Wall after Ned is executed, assuming Jon wasn’t on the block next to Ned. Or Jon is held as a prisoner like Sansa.
What promise?
I think it was to love Jon snow if he got better from the pox as a child .she tells talisa this in the show and said she couldn’t keep her promise
What if Jon was a girl?
The show is utterly ridiculous with their handling of Catelyn's relationship with Jon. In the first place, book Catelyn never wishes Jon dead, and she does not hate him. What she objects to is his presence in Winterfell, his access and proximity to Ned and his being raised as a son of Ned Stark. Not out of jealousy, but because this makes him a threat to her own children & grandchildren's inheritance. It's got nothing to do with Jon, himself or his character, because he can be used by others who are dissatisfied with the Starks in place. They ignore all this explicit characterization and make it all about vicious, petty jealousy, *and then create a scenario which justifies her book fears* in season 6, when despite Sansa being the one to provide the decisive contribution to the battle to retake Wintefell, JON is acclaimed King in the North, while Catelyn's eldest surviving child is sitting RIGHT NEXT TO HIM! What happened in the season 6 finale is EXACTLY what Catelyn was afraid of with Jon being held up in the public eye as Ned's son! We see the advice Jon gives Stannis in Book 5 on winning over the North, telling him how to placate the northern lords, the dangers to avoid in going after the Boltons, how to win over the northmen as their protector and king instead of a stranger claiming rule and where to find troops to help his cause. All of this is a result of being raised and educated by Ned Stark. Alys Karstark comes to Jon, because he's Ned's son. Stannis wants to raise Jon as Lord of Winterfell over Sansa, because he is Ned's son. These things make him attractive to the northerners as a leader and give him the means and opportunity to make a play for Winterfell if the opportunity comes up. The show made an opportunity come up and had Jon take the crown that was originally claimed by Catelyn's son, and all the Stark loyalists and supporters ignored Ned's rightful heir, because she was a woman. Season 6 justifies Catelyn wanting Jon kept far away from Ned and the center of Stark power, from any opportunity to see it in action or learn how it works, away from anyone who might see him in proximity to Ned and associate his rule with Stark continuity.
I'm blocking your channel cause it too me two minutes to figure out what the subject of this video was with your terrible title and your terrible preamble.
Jon marrying Roslyn on Robb's place opens up a whole intriguing new what if. So say he marries, and they do what young newlywed nobles are supposed to do and pop out a kid or 3. Say 2 boys and a girl so there's an heir and a spare and a daughter who could be used for a marriage alliance - also the dragon must have 3 heads so anyone who knows about the prophesy is going to sit up and take notice. The truth about Jon's parentage comes out (mystical vision from Bran, Howland Reed actually showing his face, someone at the citadel stumbling across that journal entry that apparently just anyone could access). Your choices for who to run the country are:
1. Crazy sept-blowing-up-all-her-kids-are-dead Cersie
2. Scary dragon lady with a foreign army who openly admits she can't have kids and obviously has no plans for succession, so you're guaranteed another war when she eventually croaks
3. Jon. Male, married, an heir and a spare, and a daughter some ambitious lord's son could marry one day. Adopted brother of the King in the North. Let's say that to further appease Walder Frey, Edmure did still marry one of his daughters, one of Roslyn's sisters, making Jon brother-by-law to the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands as well as son-by-law to one of the richest lords of the Riverlands (who REALLY wants the respect he could command with his daughter as Queen). Let's say Littlefinger marries and kills Lysa and then invites Catlyn to come help him with her poor orphaned nephew, and she somehow finds out his lies and overthrows him become Lady Protector for Robyn - so Jon is adopted son of the Lady Protector of the Vale. And the Tarley's only followed Cersie because she was Westerossi, so if they had another option, who was male, with a secure line of succession, and a lovely marriable adopted sister close in age to their own heir (because remember Littlefinger gave Sansa back), they would jump at the chance to ally to him and bring the Reach under his banner. Olena would back this as Jon could give her revenge just as well as Dany could and if some other family is going to rise as the new Paramounts of the Reach at least Sansa was a friend of her Margary and could be swayed to influence her new good family to Olena's purposes. Perhaps Olena could even live the rest of her days as Sansa's mentor, recognizing her cleverness and teaching her how to manage her not-terribly-bright husband, teaching her to rule the Reach, shaping her into the next Queen of Thorns..
Dany's going to react one of two ways. Either 'Burn them all!' or she'll want those kids. Either she'll see John's family as the ultimate slap in the face from fate or the perfect solution to her heir problem. In the second scenario I can see her either wanting Roslyn conveniently out of the way so she can marry Jon, join their claims, and adopt his kids - I can't imagine her outright ordering Roslyn's death but I can see her musing aloud (in front of some of her more fanatical followers) how much easier her life would be if Jon was a widower. Or she would want the boys to become orphans she could adopt - so she wouldn't have to share power with John and would still get a couple of Targ kiddies to solve her succession problem. Their parents were traitors and usurpers, but she generously wouldn't blame the kids for that.
I can imagine if Jon had a wife and kids to fight for he would go for the throne, not for the power but because having the throne would be the only way he could keep his family safe and together. Because Cersei would just want to wipe them out. And Dany is either gonna kill them all, or kill his Ros, or kill both him and Roslyn and take their kids. One way or another the only way he can keep his young family safe is to take the throne. And then he gets news about the threat in the North from Sansa's nice brother-by-law, Sam, and it becomes even more urgent that he settle things in the South and have the power of the Iron Throne behind him.
Sorry for practically writing a fanfic in your comments. You sparked my imagination.
If John was a second son in this timeline wouldn’t he have wanted to come to the capital. In these kinds of situations it’s what the second son would do. Plus he’d probably believe his true mother was from Dawn so he’d also be thinking about meeting Dawnish people as well.
you forgot that Jon is older than Rob so if he got legitimized he would take Robs place
No I didn’t. I addressed the succession when it comes to Robb and Jon within the first four minutes of the video. Robb and Jon were both born near the end of the war and are basically the same age but I do believe that since Robb was conceived in the earliest parts of the war, before Ned even left to fight it at that, he’s the older brother. Not to mention Jon would HAVE to be the younger brother( if we go with the story that he is Ned Starks son and ignore Rhaegar) because Ned had already married and slept with Cat within the first week of them being together and got her pregnant. Then he ran off to war for a year, supposedly found and slept with another woman after he’d done stuff with Cat, only to come back later with another son. If we go with Neds story that Jon is his real son he would have had to have been conceived after Robb because it wouldn’t make sense otherwise as most (Catelyn in particular) believe that Jon was conceived during the war while Robb was before it.
What if Cercie was Tywin's first born son and Jamie was his middle child daughter.
Make up your mind whether you are going with book or show on the Karstarks. It was the show that inflated executing Rickard Karstark into a blunder that cost Robb half his army. In the books, Rickard had 300 cavalry, who deserted before Rickard was even arrested, on his orders. Killing him did not cost Robb those men, and sparing Rickard would not have brought them back. Meanwhile, on the show, are you forgetting, like the writers did, that Catelyn set Jaime free to save him from a mob LED BY KARSTARK? If Cat & Brienne don't set Jaime free, Karstark is going to kill him. You have to pick a scenario - either freeing Jaime caused Karstark to kill people but didn't really put Robb in a politically compromising position, or Karstark is the commander of half the army, who lynches Jaime in his cage for killing his son in a breakout attempt.