Tien: Wait a damn minute something is wrong here? Krillin: Huh? Tien: Back on Earth Roshi could barely fight a Frieza soldier much less hasn't done anything noteworthy since the original Dragon Ball and here he is fighting and dodging Jiren who is stronger than his GOD OF DESTRUCTION!! Krillin: Well what do you think happened? Tien: Either Frost hit me so hard i'm in a delusional coma or... Krillin: Or what? Tien: POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!!!
Stefan Radebach Good TFS reference! And it’s right. You need skill and power. That’s why Roshi admits he’s all talk after tuckering himself out dodging 5 hits and then immediately takes an L. He was lacking in power.
Have you watched any Dragonball AF, or read it? it was pure garbage. The guy was made protegee by toriyama for being able to draw well..no one ever said he could write. that and old man toriyama probably forgot stuff again and thought it made sense. i wish he would stop his bad spinoffs and just focus on dragonball or stop. Super has been the best reboot of any franchise this decade. but i think its finally time to stop. which sucks because i want to see more. except they will mess it up even more. I do like the idea of power scaling like naruto. Naruto is the strongest but he can still be taken out by much weaker people.
If people are making the excuse that Roshi's many years of martial arts training helped him dodge Jiren's attacks then shouldn't have Hit been able to dodge all of Jiren's attacks too since Hit has *lived for over 1000 years* 💁
Keegan Hammond with that logic Goku should of been able to defeat Frieza in his base form with all his experience as a martial artist without resorting to a transformation. Since Goku had more "experience" then why the hell couldn't he beat Friexa who had 0 experience and NEVER trained a day in his life? Its bad inconsistent writing in super just admit it
Well 17 was alredy pretty powerful when he was introduced, is an android and has infinite energy. Was his power boost too much ? Yes but it's not as bad as Roshi's who has lived for 300 years and couldn't even make it to power level of 300, hell he didn't even learn how to fly.
3mmo0or1 that’s makes no sense considering crane schools only members are tien and chaiotsu. Plus, goku, krillin, and yamcha, all students of Roshi, learned how to fly early Z saga anyway
You have lived 250 something years. Leave the goddamn fighting to your students, you thought he teached Goku and Krillin how to fight for no reason? Let the boys (now adults btw) play fight and also occasionally save the entire planet while good old master Roshi goes around sniffing underwear and watching pre porn movies because he cannot be bothered to get an actual internet connection. I mean sure the master could go around kicking all kid on saiyans asses but he is an old guy. You do not go around telling third hokage to solo the entire Naruto story, sure nobody is stronger then him except maybe Itachi but you let the young generation grow up and have their experience while you go around fucking women. This is the cycle of life and immortal Roshi is wise enough to know what it is all about.
@@Amplifymagic Oh no, how will I ever live this down. Your comment completely voids the point I was trying to get at. Well done sir. Thank for you educating me. Please sir, give me another over explanation and correct me again. I'm such an fool. Please forgive me.
@@Amplifymagic Hey, what gives? Where's the extra information that has nothing to do with the original comment? C'mon man. You owe me. Give me details that aren't called for. Please oh great sage of Dragon Ball. Please give me more knowledge. Who gives Toyotaro his coffee? Who packages the mangas?
stabinghobo57 Yeah lets not go too far. GT gets more hate than it deserves but people seem to be propping it up now just because they’ve been disappointed by Super. GT is definitely the weakest in the franchise. From the way it treats its non Goku characters to the way it contradicts events in Toriyama’s story.
Know what happens when an experienced fighter tries to dodge a blow that is coming too fast? They get hit. Period. Your reflexes don't matter when the difficulty check is too high for your ability.
I get my people Attack the series for its logic but basing logic in fiction based off our worlds all the time is kinda overkill. Moving that fast in general would be a stretch in reality so why should we constantly try and rationalize fiction? As long as it’s reasonably consistent for the rules in the series it’s fine. Toriyama never minded consistency as much as we did so why should his hand picked successor ( which he actually does to a degree otherwise he wouldn’t reference the original series).
@@BlackKnight94Smalls94 you make the wrong assumption I'm not basing my argument off of the series set rules. Even ultra instinct is pretty bullshit. (Its literally fancy talk for reflexes plus an additional form which they supposably were trying to avoid doing.) Roshi has no business fighting any pride troopers or even ginyu force members. Hell, at that level of play, the near miss would have injured him.
@@BlackKnight94Smalls94 im going to pretend you dont condone stupid writing. Just because toriyama is a shit writer gives toyotaro a pass to write like an idiot?
Albastine S. Except Toyotarou isn’t writing like an idiot. It’s not like he’s Zack Snyder level cryptic. It’s just fans attacking him for a few details. He goes back and finds details to incorporate that people tend to forget about. DB was once a Martial Arts series, that’s where the obsession of tournaments in the series came from. Power levels are bullshit and Toyotarou knows it so he’s going back to the series roots and incorporating elements from back then. And Toriyama isn’t a shit writer either. He’s inconsistent but that didn’t stop us from enjoying his work. If Toyotarou is trying to at least be more consistent than that, then why can’t people enjoy it like they did decades ago?
@@gunblade8674 why wouldn't there be a reason to hold back? Are you telling me that Jiren would use the same power as he did against mastered SSJB Goku? Jiren would definitely killed him
son Goku 😑nice try but your still not making any sense Why would he lower his power to a point where he can’t tag roshi it simply makes zero sense He should be able to do that Hell there was no need to even lower his power as roshi could not hurt him if he just stood there Either way bad writing is still bad writing
son Goku I just picked up an ant and droped outside my house, without harming it. This is basically the same thing. No fucking way that ant can beat me even if it was a black belt times 1000000
I honestly really enjoyed the manga up until the tournament, the Trunks arc made a few weird changes but it was at least entertaining. This arc has just been boring and annoying with it's changes.
I agree, but at the same time there's only so much one guy can do with a story that's already been told, especially one as basic as a tournament. The only real freedom Toyo has here is who fights who.
FullTimeSlacker He is filling telling the story Toriyama told him to tell. And changes are usually more suited to the medium any way. Somethings in the anime where done as spectacles but most of those things wouldn’t fly in the manga. Conversely there are somethings Toyotarou can and has fleshed out that Toei wouldn’t spare time on. And when it comes to the current arc, it’s no secret it’s being rushed by the publisher. Otherwise he’d flesh it out like he did the previous arc.
@@leftyjoness I thought he could FIX the problems the series had. Oh trunks has a weird spirit sword? Just say he trained with king Kai. Stuff like that.this is justbad fan fiction for NO reason.
The excuses people come up with to defend this happening are ridiculous. As a fan of the franchise for 19 years I feel like their not even trying anymore because they know fans will still support bullshit illogical writing like this. Not just the manga but also the anime. DBZ had its flaws but nothing nearly as bad as some of the crap Super has done.
Honestly 39 was one of the most consistent chapters (in a good way), as it focuses on needing both skill and power to defeat Jiren as Goku focusing on power doesn’t work and Roshi with no power tuckered himself out dodging 5-6 attacks. The fan base is basically like Goku at that point, only caring about pure power, when in reality it’s how you use it that matters. It’s brilliant writing when you break it down outside of nearly two decades of head canon.
Super era in general is pretty whack (and that's putting it kindly) That's one of the reasons why I agree with LSM's ideas to either give the show breaks so they have more time to properly produced the show or just have DB become a movie series at this point. DBS as a whole always has the element of things getting rushed at the expense of quality to meet some quota. Moving forward they really need to just let the series have breathing room to be made. It's one of the most popular animes in the world, I don't think it's going to suffer from not always being 100% active.
The introduction of god ki was a perfect opportunity to make a new power system which could make characters besides Goku and Vegeta relevant. They simply had to make it acessible for non Saiyans. Something simple like " Only god ki can defeat god ki" would be enough. Instead, it was used like another saiyan exclusive multiplier. Nothing special. Hit and Frieza didn't even need it to kick Goku's butt. Trying to ignore power scaling in a show all about power scaling is a spit in the face of anyone who's paying attention. Well, at least Roshi had it's moments.
Perhaps toriyama put somewhere in the manuscript to give roshi a moment before eliminating him? He definitely had a moment in the anime maybe the guy who makes the manga just made that agesnt the main antag?
Ikr? It was the perfect plot item for the Z-fighters relevance without any asspulls. I would've bought Gohan fighting Kefla evenly that way. EVEN KEFLA VS SSJBKK GOKU WOULD BE MORE BELIEVABLE IF KEFLA HAS GOD KI.
Luiz Felipe here's an idea. What if the FighterZ story was adapted into an anime arc? The human souls (lets say there's a different one for each storyline) could become actual characters. When they possess characters that can use god ki (Goku and Vegeta) they get access to god ki themselves. Then when the souls possess a human fighter, the human is temporarily powered up to god level while possessed. The souls then become recurring characters that help out the weaker Z Fighters when god level threats show up. How's that for a way to make the humans relevant again? And as a bonus, Android 21 would be canon.
This actually would have made sense. God Ki can be trained but they must be able to sense it first, then cultivate it into a power useable against other God Ki users. This would have given the barely used Z-fighters a chance to catch up to Goku and actually have use in the series again where only saiyans had any plot relevance starting as far back as the Cell saga. This series sorely needs a power level reset.
For the most part, I find the manga more consistent than the anime in terms of plot and power scaling, but the POW arc for the manga is just horrendous in power scaling. That new chapter is a fucking joke
I honestly like this direction. The powerscaling in Dragon Ball is suffocating. I'd appreciate a little bit more brainpower to these DB fights and not just gaining a bigger number than your opponent. If this is the case, then it could potentially open up many opportunities for other characters to close that ludicrous gap that Dragon Ball made between Saiyans and Humans.
Preach brothers, people have been complaining for years that weaker fighters do literally nothing, but now that there's one example of one weaker fighter doing one cool thing, everybody hates it.
@@leultrainstinct406 I don't think the atleast most rational fans have a problem with Humans doing more. It's just when things like this come out of left field that breaks the internal consistency or logic of the series that a lot of people responded with so much vitriol. In other words either build up the Humans or whoever training in some way and then show case their power or maybe a new techinque that turns the tide. Rather than just 'I'm this strong now because plot' Sure Saiyans kind of thrive on that latter part, but they atleast have built in mechanics that allow them to do that. But if they can't find a way to convey the growth of Humans properly then have them fight more minion type characters like in the Moro arc or something, where they still have the chance of contributing and not have to get trounced by the big bad or pull whatever Roshi did.
But that’s the thing, unless the humans and weaker characters themselves get a noticeable power boost, then any scenario where they do something useful is fucking asinine. What good is skills and brain power when the opponent is quite literally trillions of times faster? You could have stellar martial arts skills that trumps anyone else’s skill in the battlefield, but you don’t land a single blow and get blitzed with a single strike too fast for you to see. At this point, it’s too late for the old “weaker characters can bridge the gap with skill and ingenuity.” The weakest of the “main fighters” is still millions of times stronger than the strongest of the “weak fighters.” At this point, for them to make a difference and fulfill that old trope, they DO need bigger numbers. They need to be in the same court as the main fighters before they can even dream of using skill and ingenuity. Otherwise, as I said before, it looks fucking asinine.
Master Roshi couldn't even touch King Piccolo. Hell, his power level never even cracked 300 in Z. Yet he can fight Jiren who's probably in the trillions with some bullshit off screen training excuse. If you can suddenly win fights with "experience" then why couldn't Master Roshi fight Raditz, or Cell or Buu. Why didn't he help with the fight with Zamasu if he has "experience". Why couldn't Goku beat Frieza when Frieza had no fighting experience. Master Roshi was literally furniture in Z and even weaker than even Chaziotu. He shouldn't of even been able to even touch any of the Frieza soldiers because they were all stronger than Raditz. Now all the sudden he can fight characters with "experience" when in all Z only strength and speed mattered. The writing in both the anime and manga are pure garbage and it can't be defended at all
Except I'd hardly call it a "fight". He dodged like 5 attacks, had _his_ only attack blocked, and then got KOed by a single chop to the back. Jiren was clearly just caught off guard by the old man's maneuvering. What would you have him do in the tournament? Sit around with his thumb up his ass?
Lefty Jones i am so sick of everyone using the "caught off guard" bullshit argument. When characters in Z were "caught off guard" it still meant nothing. Remember when Vegeta attacked frieza in his 2nd form and he was off guard and it did literally nothing to him. And I don't care how "off guard" someone is if the other person is stronger it means nothing. If An Ant caught a dinosaur off guard would it be able to hurt it at all? No. U can't defend this writing. A chop by Jiren should of instantly killed roshi no way he should even be able to take a finger tap from Jiren he's literally stronger than a god of destruction whereas Roshi logically should be king piccolo level. Roshi shouldn't be able to dodge a SINGLE attack by a character like Jiren who was faster than Hit's time skip
Andrew Garfield Lefty is right. It was all laid out by Toyotarou as well. It’s not bad writing by any stretch. At this point the fan base is caught up in pure power over everything just like Goku was in the chapter. Toyotarou was taking what worked in the original first half of Dragon Ball and making it relevant to the pure power scale of Z. Just cause it doesn’t fit with the head canon developed over a decade doesn’t make it bad writing. One difference between Toei and Toyotarou is that Toei is purely focusing on the Power Scaling abused in Z while Toyotarou is going back to elements of earlier days and making them relevant again. But I understand where the hate is coming from, but it’s not possible to use the decades of head canon to break down this chapter.
TonyMishima92 Actually Roshi didn’t use UI, he used principles “similar” but not actually UI. But even so the power scaling isn’t broken as people make it out to be. Toyotarou laid out his intentions throughout the chapter.
Can y'all please stop hating on master roshi 😂 the nigga has showed us time and time again that he got mad skills, the homie hasn't been relaxing why Goku and Vegeta have been training he's been doing some training of his own, yes even the turtle hermit can improve during his old days like come on it doesn't need that much explaining to figure it out
Well Powerscaling in the tournament of power never made sense, so what ever... The manga cannot break what is allready broken. So who realy cares if roshi, who couldn't defeat king picollo, can doge punshes from jiren, if Kale could tank a super saiyan blue kamehameha and then have no chance with her best friend in a 2vs1 against a tired super saiyan 2 goku and all the other stuff.
Prior to the tournament, Roshi trained via Pornhub and got a gigantic hentai boost, and as a result of having too much testosterone, he was able to revive his old man gains in the gym which surpassed the Godly Gains of the Jacked Jiren. This is the perfect explanation and makes perfect sense as to why. Stop being a hater and accept that Master Roshi has returned to pumping the iron.
For the longest time, I convinced myself that Super is just a soft reboot of the entire series...I know that's not the case but that's the only way any of this can make sense. It's like when Ash goes to another region and Pikachu goes back to level 1 for some reason...
@@thedarklordx I wouldn't say that exactly, in Z everyone did their part for most of the series...it doesn't really get like that till the second half of the Buu arc.
@@hamzamansoor34 Obviously it isn't one officially. I'm saying that's how I look at it personally, the story continues where it left of, but the character's are reset to a lower level and the univere's rules have retconned and changed so much to benefit this new story they're telling. It's kind of is a soft reeboot in a way, and Dragonball has done this multiple times before.
@@JoseGarcia-rg3dx ummmm no ur comment makes no sense super didnt reboot anything sure it did some rectconed here and there but the main point is that super is made just to tell us on what happened in the 10 year time skip
How is it even possible to suppress yourself to Hercule level when you are God level NANI do you even physics ? How did people come up with such trash theories doesn't it take like evidence to make it a theories or what.
@@Vageta1999 He still can't compare to Jiren your comparing someone with a DB power level to someone with a higher eshilan DBS power level you just can't do it but back to my point how is it mentally and physically fucking possible for someone at Jiren power level to be suppressed to the point where he is at Hercule's power level which is like 25 when ones own is like a decillion time that it just should not be possible.
@@Vageta1999 And brother or sister don't know yo gender and don't want to assume when that happened Buu was not trying to kill Hercule he was trying fuck him up Loki he could of one shoted him.
And accodrding to you, why that doesn't have any sense? You literary saw in all the fucking series Goku or Gohan surprissing their powers against normal humans, because that's how DB logic works regardless of your head canon. A character can be millions, billions, octillions, or whatever you want stronger, but they still have the capacity to use and reduce their power like they want. Again, we literarly saw in all the series that they have that capacity.
Thank thank thank you! This chapter was ridiculous! Ive always looked at the manga with a grain of salt but this tournament of power has been freaking retarted
Roshi was literally weaker than even Yamcha from day 1 in Z, a Yamcha that hadn't even went to Kami's let alone Kai's and Super wants to make us believe he became pretty much the strongest human overnight by training alone on his Island? No matter how many times we actually saw him doing nothing and that it was clear from the start he was much less gifted than his human disciples. I like the idea of making technique and martial arts coming back, but it's too little, too improvised and too late to be satisfying in any capacity.
Facts! All of what you mentioned is exactly why I’m so done with dbs and especially after what happened in the granola arc/hero movie. Nothing makes sense anymore as it would seem hypocritical nonsense is dragonball’s driving force nowadays! All I have to say is this: make power scaling great again!!
The anime wasn't perfect, but I could swallow the fact that Roshi used the stuff we knew he could (Mafuba and Lightning Surprise) and worked it into his strategy well. He did nearly die at least, forcing him out to take a senzu, maybe he mastered the move more off screen. Yeah maybe he got stronger too, although that doesn't justify the huge power gap he overcame. The manga on the other hand is pure nonsense, has been for a while and reads like awful fanfiction. PS Frost is definitely the type to toy with his enemy.
For the next arc, Pual and Oolong will be facing Extra Mega Red Jiren. Jokes aside, I think it's somewhat cool they left power scaling aside a bit. Even if it means retconning A LOT, on the downside.
TheonewhoQuacks people have been doing it in the anime when SSB Goku has a bean struggle with krillon. They did it when kale walked through goku’s kamehameha. They did for jiren when he kept getting stronger throughout the tournament. Where were you when all this happened in the anime? Wake up, this isn’t anything new
TheonewhoQuacks Dude, killing in this tournament is illegal. If Jiren hit Roshi with just 1% of his force, Roshi would die. So it's not "bs". It's a verifiable FACT that shouldn't be ignored, and it was within the range that Roshi's false UI could work. Then Jiren got slightly more serious, and knocked him off with one hit. You people make issues out of nothing and I'm sick of this ridiculous fanbase.
Master roshi is old as shit... I personally like how they gave him the idea of knowing how to move well... he didn’t actually do ultra instinct... but he understands the fundamental concept of it without even knowing what he’s at the surface of
So, here's the reason everyone hates it. It's because they fell into the trap that power levels create. Instead of comprehending the lesson Roshi was teaching. He's not more powerful than any of these people in a straight fight. Doesn't need to be, because power levels are bullshit. He doesn't need to be faster, because he can see and anticipate. That's the entire fucking point that Whis is making. Roshi's centuries of training as a sennin have given him mushin, or something close to it, which is a few steps down from the autododge that is Ultra Instinct, but it's a solid baseline. It also works in the context of the manga because Roshi's doing this to teach Goku how to use it. Rather than him just absorbing the spirit bomb like a battery (don't do that. Never ever swallow a power source bigger than your head), he had to be taught, and the fandom needed a rap on the knuckles to remind them of this.
Hell yeah mangatard. Not like hit has 1000 years old when all he does is assassinate and ofc he had to fight most of the time. Not like he 1 shotted goku and was even with kaioken . Hits time skip definetly doesnt mean shit but roshis fake ui its definetly better lmao
Bringbleachback I love how much of a bully you are. Are we really calling people retards because they like something you don’t? What are we in third grade lol. Please get a life
liking and defending something blindly are 2 DIFFERENT things. Idgaf if u like a pile of shit but dont defend when other people call their bullshit out.
I think they're trying to retcon the power level thing. It really writes them into a corner. It doesn't make this any less of an inconsistency but I do feel like that's what they're doing:future proofing the series.
Honestly the Manga is highly overrated. The Dragon Ball Super Anime isn’t 100 % perfect but still it way better in terms of narrative, fights and scaling. The Anime ain’t perfect but more consistent and believable than this crap manga in my opinion
Yet in the anime beserker kale was able to make Goku turn blue and tank a SSJB kamehameha but later her strongest state is weaker than SSJG? You call that accurate power scaling? The manga power scaling is more consistent compare to the anime.
Andrew Garfield like I said, neither manga nor anime of Super is 100% consistent with itself but the Anime (in my opinion) makes way more sense out of the two
Goku was at a supressed ssjb agasint kale, if your thinking kale bersrker form is sssjb teir. Than that means that krillin and 18 is ssjb level. Manga's power scaling is retarded since the black arc, somehow fp ssj2 trunks is close to ssj3 goku(but trunks states that his fp ssj2 form was fodder to base form black). Somehow black in his ssj form(which is a x50 multiplier to his base form, which is above ssj3 overall) gets shit stomped by ssj2 vegeta. Also the roshi's asspull makes no sense, as well a exerted ssjb vegeta somehow obliterates two merged zamasu... is terrible power scaling in the manga thus far.
son Goku in the anime goku powered up twice as SSJ2 and was suppressed, after UI Omen vs Jiren he’s comfortable fighting Caulifla in base and she states he got stronger (adapting and/or Zenkai) even Whis states that Kefla is producing similar energy to the Spirit Bomb he was trying to throw at Jiren and was getting right back up as Blue (can’t remember exactly the scene). You mean to tell me Base Gohan = SSJ Kefla> Pride Troppers> Berserk Kale> Golden Frieza and Master Roshi =< Suppressed Jiren > Mastered SS Blue Goku and Hit in the manga makes more sense and is more consistent than my points with the anime then the Anime would pimp slap the manga version no problem
i dont find it too crazy. Roshi is in a sense not a normal fighter but a Sennin (sage). The capacity to dodge on instinct is reminiscent of other sages in anime like Oro from street fighter or sage transformation in Naruto. Just think of it as a separate independent ability from power level. They didnt emphasize this aspect of Roshi's character in Dragon ball because he was supposed to pass the mantle then. We have seen a few characters with weird abilities separate from power like Guldo's time stop, Dabura's spit or majin buu's transformation beam, so why not roshi having an imperfect form of future sight to dodge? I think the Super did a good job showing that Roshi relies on observation, strategy and a huge list of unconventional tecniques to punch far above his weight. To be fair , it never made sense how super weak frieza soldiers who needed guns to perform ki blasts where supposed to be leagues above legit martial art legends like Roshi or even Crane Hermit. Another thing we saw was that even super saiyan goku gets hurt if you throw a rock at his head. So despite these characters being planet busters, you dont even need THAT much brute strength to hurt them. idk why people keep defending power levels to be honest, it was a plot to device to establish A>B in the saiyan and frieza saga. The fact super kind of dispensed with them was a plus not a minus. Besides anyone who analyzes power levels long enough realizes they only make sense by adding dozens of ad hoc rules to make sense of situations.
Right? People are acting as if Roshi actually _hurt_ Jiren or some shit. He literally dodged like 5 attacks, had his one attack blocked, then got KOed by a single chop to the back. I don't even care for the manga, but complaining about _this_ to such great extent is just dumb.
I agree that the powerscaling is pretty wacky in Super. Then only thing though, is that if they kept going with the powerscaling from Z the only characters that would matter would be Goku, Vegeta and Frieza. It just wouldn't be nearly as interesting if they were the only characters that we see doing cool stuff. I am not defending the Master Roshi in the manga flub, but I am just saying realistically all the participants in the Tournament of Power minus those 3 would be bodied in a second if they went with powerscaling.
Jirens speed = billions of times faster then light (using 2% of his true power) Roshis speed = slower then a saibamen "I like pay checks." - toriyama and toyotaro
The mafuba's drain is unaffected by the opponent's power, only the user's. It almost killed him, because his power level was significantly below what it is now. If it was affected by opponent's power level, Trunks would have died after using it on Zamasu.
Roshi is stronger than a god of destruction and has been since the original series, he just holds himself back because he is a true master and doesn't want to discourage their growth.
Just like how cringy it was when Frieza said to Toppo ( in God of destruction mode) and i quote 'Then how about this power to destroy an entire planet' IS THIS A TROLL OR LAZY WRITING?
I'm entirely on your side on this myself. The one and only argument I would give in favor of jaren holding back, Is that there was a no killing rule For the tournament of power, Therefore him holding back immensely would make sense because he'd be afraid that if he did one shot Roshi he'd probably Kill him. In saying that, There's zero reason why a hit for master roshi would do more damage to jiren than roshi's hand. ,I actually buy his repeated use of the evil containment wave. In the anime he only used it Three times to my recollection right? And after the second time he said that using it a third would come with a great risk. Ask for him dying after the 1st use yes that did happen for sure. Tien however used it and didn't die when he was only slightly stronger than roshi. So if we're assuming that master roshi trained in secret and was able to get a power level of at least ten thousand, Three uses doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Kami himself was also able to use it without too much exertion.
Thanks for being the voice of reason Mike. I swear this Arc is making me hate Roshi a lot and I don't want that to happen because Roshi is a cool and wise character but the fact that they decided to put him in the roster instead of Goten or Trunks and have him do well against guys that are a lot stronger than him because of his quote on quote "experience" is mind boggling.
Honestly all that was said in this video was mostly nonsense dude .-., what do you mean "unrealistic that he could fight so we'll", why is that? He hasn't had a big role in the series since db original, and from the beginning of dbz to the ToP it's about 10+ years, him training all that time isn't unbelievable or anything, and also your argument about experience was broken down by the series itself, literally roshi told Goku that in order to win he doesn't need more power -_-, y'all ignored basically all the plot and called it bad writing because you "thought" it doesn't make sense
@elpapu xDD In dragon ball for the longest time power was everything, sure experience and techniques help however the person with the higher power level in general wins the fight. And about the part where you claim Goku doesn't need power to beat Jiren, he needed power to win. Ultra instinct isn't just a technique it also boosts the users' speed, power, and defense. Would dragon ball be better if experience alone plays a major role? Yes, it would. However, it's far too late in the series to make it work. Especially if the guy who was experienced confirmed to be a weakling tried to fight a guy who was stronger than his God of destruction.
@@elpapuxDDReal ; One of the biggest problems with the writing in Dragon Ball, and a lot of manga, is that it requires the audience to assume and fill in the holes that the writers didn't bother to. E.g. if the plan was for Roshi to make a comeback, why wasn't he ever shown training beforehand? If we saw him training to tap into God Ki and Ultra Instinct before the tournament, and it's shown while he's sparring with Goku (they can at least hint at it here), then most of us would appreciate the writers forethought and preparation. Even admire how they are willing to take the new material that was presented to Super and apply it in interesting ways. It even makes sense if Piccolo and Roshi could tap into it. However, it's never shown, and it never happens, instead he's able to perform feats that go completely unexplained and contradict the reader's perception of the character. Basically, it's lazy writing -- after all, it's the goals of the writer to make the universe make sense, not the readers or youtubers.
UI Roshi is something I love in concept, but this is super fucking wrong. Suppression and “caught off guard” are legitimate arguments in some cases, but this is just bad writing. I enjoyed his scaling in the anime, as there were several times in Z where you could infer that Roshi was training or had gotten stronger.
Roshi was so weak that Jiren had to avoid killing him. That is Why Roshi was able fight Jiren for a while. Think about it. If you had to use 1/billionth of your power. The degree of control required to achieve it would be astronomically difficult. The rules of tournament of power backfired. If it was a fight to the death, Roshi would have been done in by a finger. Deep inside, I know the writers fucked up. But this logic is at least justifiable.
Agreed! I loved ep 105 of the DBS anime. It had awesome character stuff for Roshi without too many inconsitencies when he actually learned lessons from his students. One thing that got to me however about roshi's writing in this chapter was how he asks Goku what strength means to him. After Goku's answer he says "plain old fighting strength?" "Who taught you that?" I immediatly got a flashback of Goku and Krillin wearing turtle shells during training to get stronger. Furthermore, Goku learned the lessons of speed through Dragon Ball and especially in the cell saga when they learn that ssj grade 3 sacrificed too much speed for power. So he should already know the importance of speed and wasted movements unless he just up and forgot which seems to be what they are going with here which just makes Goku look bad so that Roshi can "teach" his student, Who has been shown to have far surpassed him in every way, a "lesson."
But people who defend the manga pretend this development didn't occur for Goku and that he is learning something profound in this chapter. What makes it even funnier is that Goku actually does need more power than anything as he's not even able to hurt Jiren with all the hits he's landing.
Throughout the series, Goku has focused more on gaining power through his transformations than on actually improving his martial arts. He's become too dependent on how strong he is compared to his opponent, so he FORGOT about all of those important aspects of fighting. Power will definitely HELP you win a battle, but it isn't the most important thing. That's what Goku needed to be reminded of.
@@kenstorm707 bro that is your head cannon not the actual facts so stop capin for bad writing because we all know the reason why this is happening is because they don't care about consistency and they are they are trying to make goku stupid
@@notamethadict How's it head canon if that's literally what's said in the manga? Roshi asked him why he was losing, and Goku said it was because he didn't have a strong enough transformation. You can call it bad writing (not that you have any clue what bad writing is), but saying it's just head canon is a fallacy, since it's right there in the manga.
The Goku learning the hakai makes sense, Whis could have taught it too him, or Beerus used it before near him. We didn't see it but best way I can see it happening
Imply it through plot or show it on screen, don't just have characters doing random shit out of nowhere and force the audience to fill in the blanks with head canon.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 well super was bad at writing with the anime, the manga, Gohan said he's doing gravity training, so we have no idea how crazy it was, maybe 9000x or more but kale was bad, but they just took the broly approach with making it more like the ssj grade 3. Bad writing but, easy too get passed. Roshi was the only one that had so many problems with the power scaling you need every single method of making it make some sense too make it work.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 I'm just saying, if there really making roshi retire, making him be a key factor too how Goku gains the power too beat Jiren is the best way they saw it. I think they should have just kept Goku facing Jiren and made Roshi just face someone else and tell Goku his speech and after roshi got his opponent out Jiren is just shooting Ki blast at roshi and pushing him too the edge, Roshi use his version of ultra instincts and Goku is watching and trying too help by attacking Jiren but Jiren is just using one hand too handle Goku and the other too attack Roshi, Roshi is still trying too help Goku and Goku is getting angrier and angrier, until roshi is finally knocked off once Jiren speed blitz roshi and chop his neck knocking him off and that's what drives Goku over the edge and we get omen Goku, or roshi falling tells Goku too just stay calm and too just let it go, giving it a 16 Easter egg for the fans and Goku finally listens too his master and we get a few manga panels of Goku remembering everything he was taught and Jiren is rushing towards him, and right when was going too hit Goku, we see Goku dodge, and we see the omen eye's appear and disappear, Jiren is using more attacks and Goku is dodging but when Jiren gets sick of it, he just launched a engery blast and Goku tried too dodge and the last second the omen form is gone and Goku is hit by the blast, with Goku getting hit and all we see is Goku on the ground with us waiting for the new chapter.
@@brandongarzon5203 your aware you saying that makes it so every God of Destruction was just born able to use it right. They learn from there Angel. I was saying that Goku learned it from Whis, or saw Beerus use it and just copied it
My take on this is that, it should make sense. Roshi has lived for many years and is truely a master of master artists. So I never understood why in Z they played him down so hard core. I like this idea in principle, but it just came out of nowhere with Roshi’s current lack of any development.
the problem with the experience thing is that Hits experience is about double that and he got destroyed by jiren.there is now way to logically allow roshi to fight jiren.even if I allow for the "he was secretly training" excuse,at best he might have caught up to krillin and tien,and even that is a huge stretch.but even if I say he did,those two wouldnt be anywhere near strong enough to fight jiren.so no,there is no way roshi should have been able to.
For those who don't know, Goku, Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien, and even Krillen and Yadjarobi were much stronger than Roshi by the end if OG DB. There is no way Roshi could have fought in Z, and Super
"A kids show" Am I the only person who remembers the Goku Black Arc where we had a villain with his eyes set on Genocide, which in both versions he does actually somewhat manage to pull off?
At this rate, especially considering you know DBS is a sequel to Z which had great moments like that time Cell blasted Gohan's arm and it was soaked in blood and broken beyond any modern science's comprehension.
It's for teens then, not a Kids show. A kids show doesn't have genocidal maniacs... Or at least, has them at least way more tame then Zamasu with his Zealous mania.
I'd say the Black arc was darker than the Buu arc. Still the overall Android arc remains as the darkest arc ever in DB, it has very next to no comedy moments.
Saw Geekdoms video reveiw of the manga. And yours. And I agree. I love the U6 arc in the manga more than the anime. But as time has gone on the manga is definitely worse. Both supers adaptations are littered with major problems. Yeah Super is making shitloads of cash right now. But how are those figures gonna look a decade from now? I hate Gt. And as such I own nothing with the brand. Meaning they can't make money off the GT brand with me because it sucks so hard. How many other fans are in that boat? A lot. And Super is heading right for that shitberg as well.
I imagine it'll be exactly like gt. People trash it except for the cool forms. Ultra instinct, Jiren, and MAYBE the saiyan girls will be looked on favourably
Like Japan would give a shit about the West since when toei ever listened to an American fanboy if super is heading for that shit berg than how hasn't been cancelled yet why cause the Japanese fans love super unlike gt which they hated it
It's impossible to give non-main characters/ old characters powerful moments because they have been left far behind. They must either have a moment in the spotlight with strange reasoning or they have no moment in the spotlight at all. It's hard to blame the writing staff Z and Super and any other Anime and Manga when they are tasked with giving fans the characters they like even though, realistically, those characters have little place in the story anymore.
Would have been interesting if Jiren had to hold back so much because he had to avoid killing roshi and being disqualified. If you were in a tournament and told to fight an ant without killing it you are you would have a stupidly hard time doing so and it might apear that the ant is doing well when really it's just you trying not to kill it. Another way could have been Jiren having respect for an old man and not wanting to break his spine. Either could have worked for a fight between such absurd difference
I liked Mutant Roshi vs Jerin personally I thought that Roshi being close to UI makes sense with how old he is and we don't know the training he has been doing but he has been training since he could stand up to freezas army fairly well and if he continued his training and with his true mastery of the martial arts it makes sense that he would be approaching a new power. Remember before Roshi we didn't have any sort of Kai control
I like how when he spoke to goku and told him to think back to his training, it was a good call back and foreshadowed ultra instinct but it’s still ridiculous, master roshi is weak asf
@@Shawn.Mathew Master Roshi has trained for over 300 years yeah his body is old and weakend but the muscle memory to move without thinking would be ingrained in him. I still personally liked this move in the manga, and found it to be neat, granted now Toyatoro is just stealing from Naruto with the Granolha arc, and hasn't done anything interesting with Super Hero.
@@-VinnieWilson02- so master roshi who at this point is past his prime, was able to get owned by demon king piccolo but now fast forward to now he can’t hold his own against jiren, and this is also the same guy who effectively retired after seeing tien and goku rise up, it’s lazy writing
It took Roshi 50 years to learn the Kamehameha, so you can stop all arguments about him training off screen right there! It took Kid Goku 5 seconds to copy it. COPY IT, not learn it. He didn’ t need to be taught. He is a prodigy. And then Roshi pretty much tells him that he is not paying attention, like he never thought about “Dodging”. It’s all retarted beyond retarted. And Goku is been a parody of himself in DBS. AnywAys, since Torishima isn’t Toriyama’s editor anymore, it turned to nonsense.
Woah, this type of explanation, the narrative behind it and the commentary is so good. It's like something I didn't know I needed until now, because in the dragon ball community it's rare. Keep up the amazing work and don't stop what you're doing.
You don’t think Roshi was heavily underestimated by everyone and that that’s why everyone was surprised? You also think that Roshi doesn’t train, despite having gone from being less than King Piccolo level to taking out hundreds of members of Freeza’s army? And you think he hasn’t gotten way stronger since the resurrection f arc? Do you have any reason to find any of these statements false?
Roshi in manga and anime version of TOP should have easily defeated the sayians, frieza. If he could make a strong enough ki blast then even cell. And at least throw hands with buu...let alone both piccolos. All three humans in the top make 0 sense to me. All super had to say was "goku taught them god ki" and it woulda made massively more sense. You don't even have to show us just tell us 😂
Power scaling in shonen anime/manga has never been consistent. It's called plot armor for purpose of a cool series of panels and story. i can turn off my brain and enjoy a good fight
TLDR: roshi technique should not conquer someone who can move faster than the speed of light and probably bench press all the planets in the galaxy lol its bad writing at its finest. lazy too. lmfao. so if the excuse is "characters are suppressed" then what is the point of the show???? if the argument is "so they dont blow up the planet" then my answer would be "then thats bad writing" one of the problem with Z and Super is that it does not and has never made it absolutely CLEAR that them exchanging fist could blow up the earth. the only argument someone could make is that they hold back their ki attack GREATLY. which is very true since characters like frieza and vegeta could blow up the earth and it wouldnt make sense for them to commit suicide...unless you are Buu lol. but seriously though its just bad writing. planet busting ki attacks should be the END goal for our z fighters but it was established way too early. frieza could blow up planets and so that power should have solely been left to him until damn near the end of Z. villains in Z and super are completely out of order. z should have been androids. cell second , frieza 3rd and Buu last in order of threat. with buu or frieza being the planet busters. also its just no way i can believw that characters can power up to such large amounts and not at least cause continent sized blast JUST BY ACCIDENT. its too controlled because the writing is out of hand. punching abd kicking should be causing earthquakes n shit. anyway though the only way roshi could be better than goku is if whis had the power to limit ppls powers. and in doing so limited goku to roshi level in which roshi would win since martial arts come more into play with such weaker strength and slower speed. but no matter how fakely powerful roshi is, it doesn't make sense for his technique to overpower someone with ki/energy more massive than planets and who can move faster than the speed of light. (which even raditz is faster than so imagine)
Darth Titan the point is if you can’t control your power to hit someone without killing them then you have no reason to be in the tournament. If the rule didn’t exist Zeno would’ve gotten bored since lots of people would’ve died quickly. If you can’t learn restrainment then you can’t be in tournaments. You might kill someone because you didn’t know when to refrain from hitting too hard. Which is why there is a referee to prevent a fight going to far. It’s not a difficult concept
THANK YOU! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! I LOOOOOOVE Dragonball, but these decisions and problems is one of the reasons why I can't deal with arguing with so many of these commentators about these things. From the "heavily suppressed to caught off guard to the "he's hundreds of times faster than light - never mind completely breaking the reasonable physics as we know it behind it; or Jiren can completely destroy the Multiverse! Never mind the purpose and fear expressed by the gods over Zennos appearance. Never mind that the largest star exploding wouldn't expand its energies half way across a galaxy as small as a thousand light years in size. The science or even fake science is so SUPER flawed in Dragonball that far too many fans hold to analysis that makes no sense.
I feel like Roshi is near ultra instinct, also he is just dodging, he isn't really doing damage so I don't see a problem and Jiren might actually be holding back because he lost his own master. I would have liked Roshi to go at him with actual martial arts and last lesson for Goku and then die
Mh if you think about it, UI is a technique so humans can learn it . Yes I know Master Roshi is not OP… but I liked that scene actually. He did not defeat anyone but he showed him how to “clear his heart” and learn UI… somehow I guess.
"Frost stronger than Goku post god based form" hahahahahahahaha. If you are talking about the one time use (On RoF arc) base form of "Saiyan beyond god" i must say i don't agree. To me Frost lose to a SSj Goku which means he is clearly weaker to a ssj2 etc. That's one of the things i hate about the U6 vs u7 tournament. No one was strong except Hit and the God form Saiyans. They should dedicated screen time to train other characters, that's the whole problem with Dragon Ball Super and Gt. No training
This "Saiyan beyind god" bullshit shouldn't have been created in the first place. It only serves to create more problems and it indeed was used only in the RoF movie/arc. As for Frost... he was so "strong" that Frieza in his practically useless buffed form eliminated him with a single blast. Granted, it was somewhat a surprise attack - but the fact remains.
In theory it was a decent concept but putting base forms of Goku and Vegeta so ridiculously high is just asking for problems. It'd make their ordinary SSJ forms useless (because why bother with those when they have god ki in their bases) and all of their opponents would have to be insanely strong to even make sense. That's why you see now people who think Frost or Cabba are stronger than the likes of Buuhan, it's all because of "Saiyan beyond god".
+Seru It could easily being fix, if all the new rivals/enemies were trained by the Angels or God of destruction. U6 vs U7 should have been that, but they didn't show any training of Piccolo or Buu with Whis. And later on with the likes of Krillin, Tien, Gohan, etc. All the participants of the Universe Tournament Arc, should have been that. Easy, why they didn't do was plain stupid. The stakes were high already. God levels rivals make more sense.
I had the exact "Jiren is just suppressing himself" "he was caught off guard" replies when I replied over on Geekdom's similar video critiquing this mess. I just let it be. Can't be bothered to argue there. The anime version at least, at least, gave us a really good emotional moment with Goku and Roshi and it felt like it meant something, to the point Beerus even offers Roshi a notion of respect. That feeling of someone going beyond their limits to the point of sacrificing everything inspires. That doesn't make the scaling any less absurd, but at least there was something to it, something really respectful of the character in that regard and which meant something to the rest. Here, it looks like it's just something vomited on the page just because. Or just to get Goku to unlock ultra instinct, because God forbid this just follow the same path as the anime... I don't read this manga, I don't get this manga at all. Why make it if it's going to be completely different than the anime? DB has always stuck mostly to its source, which was Toriyama's manga, now the source is reversed and the manga is like an elseworld's tale. Seems they shirked a more rigid following of power scaling in the anime, or in general, just to return DB to its more loose and comical roots. I do wish it was taken more seriously and not just exploding all over the place for no reason. But that's what it is... That latter point is crucial. Beings don't just have insane levels of power in Dragon Ball, they have insane levels of speed. There's no way on earth Jiren would be surprised by Roshi's movements, or have to dodge and block himself. Sorry to say, but Roshi wouldn't even be able to do this against Yamcha. He's just not fast enough, let alone strong enough, for any of that. But ol Yamcha was left alone in his apartment to talk to his cat...
The worst part of this Roshi incident is that he berates Goku for wanting more power and forgetting to focus on technique, which is immediately undone the moment Jiren beats Roshi with just his raw speed and power. Like that made the scene even worse than the obvious powerscaling issue.
![Japan Doesn't Like Tien [DBG #1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/42HNvl0e26I/mqdefault.jpg)
![กิโลเมตรที่ 0 เดินทางรอบโลกไม่ใช้เครื่องบิน [Around The World Ep. 1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/toJG9oofLFY/mqdefault.jpg)
Tien: Wait a damn minute something is wrong here?
Krillin: Huh?
Tien: Back on Earth Roshi could barely fight a Frieza soldier much less hasn't done anything noteworthy since the original Dragon Ball and here he is fighting and dodging Jiren who is stronger than his GOD OF DESTRUCTION!!
Krillin: Well what do you think happened?
Tien: Either Frost hit me so hard i'm in a delusional coma or...
Krillin: Or what?
Tien: POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!!!
Stefan Radebach
Good TFS reference!
And it’s right. You need skill and power. That’s why Roshi admits he’s all talk after tuckering himself out dodging 5 hits and then immediately takes an L. He was lacking in power.
Stefan Radebach I can see that XD
RESPECT!
Have you watched any Dragonball AF, or read it? it was pure garbage. The guy was made protegee by toriyama for being able to draw well..no one ever said he could write. that and old man toriyama probably forgot stuff again and thought it made sense. i wish he would stop his bad spinoffs and just focus on dragonball or stop.
Super has been the best reboot of any franchise this decade. but i think its finally time to stop. which sucks because i want to see more. except they will mess it up even more. I do like the idea of power scaling like naruto. Naruto is the strongest but he can still be taken out by much weaker people.
How about: Toyataro can't write for sh#t.
If people are making the excuse that Roshi's many years of martial arts training helped him dodge Jiren's attacks then shouldn't have Hit been able to dodge all of Jiren's attacks too since Hit has *lived for over 1000 years* 💁
Dbs has bad writing
Keegan Hammond with that logic Goku should of been able to defeat Frieza in his base form with all his experience as a martial artist without resorting to a transformation. Since Goku had more "experience" then why the hell couldn't he beat Friexa who had 0 experience and NEVER trained a day in his life? Its bad inconsistent writing in super just admit it
or just because Hit has the time skip...
@@andrewgarfield9898 U are a Dumbass sir. Clearly you haven't watch Z.
@@andrewgarfield9898 this isn't super tho. It's the manga
Why can't characters like Piccolo and Gohan get this treatment but Roshi and 17 get crazy boosts with little explanation?!
Well 17 was alredy pretty powerful when he was introduced, is an android and has infinite energy. Was his power boost too much ? Yes but it's not as bad as Roshi's who has lived for 300 years and couldn't even make it to power level of 300, hell he didn't even learn how to fly.
I-/ /-B it was explained before that roshi could infact fly but he chooses not to do so as its the technique of the rival school
3mmo0or1 that’s makes no sense considering crane schools only members are tien and chaiotsu. Plus, goku, krillin, and yamcha, all students of Roshi, learned how to fly early Z saga anyway
Gohan does tie with Kefla in the manga
Uh gohan I’m the manga is op
Makes you wonder why roshi didn't seal away the radditz and the other saiyans, the androids, cell, or majin buu
Because it'd make the series incredibly boring and anti-climactic. lol
OH, you mean back when Mafuba ALMOST KILLED the user!? Oh yeah, good old days...
Infinite
Busy sniffing Launch's panties?
Actually. It would pull a very powerful toll on rod his body
You have lived 250 something years.
Leave the goddamn fighting to your students, you thought he teached Goku and Krillin how to fight for no reason?
Let the boys (now adults btw) play fight and also occasionally save the entire planet while good old master Roshi goes around sniffing underwear and watching pre porn movies because he cannot be bothered to get an actual internet connection.
I mean sure the master could go around kicking all kid on saiyans asses but he is an old guy.
You do not go around telling third hokage to solo the entire Naruto story, sure nobody is stronger then him except maybe Itachi but you let the young generation grow up and have their experience while you go around fucking women. This is the cycle of life and immortal Roshi is wise enough to know what it is all about.
Toyotaro forgot he was employed by Toei and thought he was on a fan fiction website.
@@Amplifymagic Oh no, how will I ever live this down. Your comment completely voids the point I was trying to get at. Well done sir. Thank for you educating me. Please sir, give me another over explanation and correct me again. I'm such an fool. Please forgive me.
@@Amplifymagic Hey, what gives? Where's the extra information that has nothing to do with the original comment? C'mon man. You owe me. Give me details that aren't called for. Please oh great sage of Dragon Ball. Please give me more knowledge. Who gives Toyotaro his coffee? Who packages the mangas?
You know he's being sarcastic right?
@@Amplifymagic You did first 😂
+Omar13Z jokes on you, many popular DB fan fictions make more sense in their respective stories than DBS does.
This just proves that writers can get away with anything they want. Wouldn't be surprised with they give Yamcha Ultra Instinct just for the laughs.
There's only one writer on the manga.
stabinghobo57 Yeah lets not go too far. GT gets more hate than it deserves but people seem to be propping it up now just because they’ve been disappointed by Super. GT is definitely the weakest in the franchise. From the way it treats its non Goku characters to the way it contradicts events in Toriyama’s story.
I'm still waiting for Ultra Instinct Farmer with a Shotgun
What’s wrong with me attain ultra instinct?!
@@stabinghobo57 in what way explain to us
Know what happens when an experienced fighter tries to dodge a blow that is coming too fast?
They get hit. Period. Your reflexes don't matter when the difficulty check is too high for your ability.
Omg. Idk why this is so for people to understand. It would be like an ordinary skilled human trying to dodge literal light.lol
I get my people Attack the series for its logic but basing logic in fiction based off our worlds all the time is kinda overkill. Moving that fast in general would be a stretch in reality so why should we constantly try and rationalize fiction?
As long as it’s reasonably consistent for the rules in the series it’s fine. Toriyama never minded consistency as much as we did so why should his hand picked successor ( which he actually does to a degree otherwise he wouldn’t reference the original series).
@@BlackKnight94Smalls94 you make the wrong assumption I'm not basing my argument off of the series set rules. Even ultra instinct is pretty bullshit. (Its literally fancy talk for reflexes plus an additional form which they supposably were trying to avoid doing.)
Roshi has no business fighting any pride troopers or even ginyu force members.
Hell, at that level of play, the near miss would have injured him.
@@BlackKnight94Smalls94 im going to pretend you dont condone stupid writing. Just because toriyama is a shit writer gives toyotaro a pass to write like an idiot?
Albastine S.
Except Toyotarou isn’t writing like an idiot. It’s not like he’s Zack Snyder level cryptic. It’s just fans attacking him for a few details. He goes back and finds details to incorporate that people tend to forget about. DB was once a Martial Arts series, that’s where the obsession of tournaments in the series came from. Power levels are bullshit and Toyotarou knows it so he’s going back to the series roots and incorporating elements from back then.
And Toriyama isn’t a shit writer either. He’s inconsistent but that didn’t stop us from enjoying his work. If Toyotarou is trying to at least be more consistent than that, then why can’t people enjoy it like they did decades ago?
How many times can the DB fan base keep using the "Cought off guard" or "He was suppressing his power" excuse?
Because he is.
son Goku why he is tho?
There is no reason to do that
@@gunblade8674 why wouldn't there be a reason to hold back? Are you telling me that Jiren would use the same power as he did against mastered SSJB Goku? Jiren would definitely killed him
son Goku
😑nice try but your still not making any sense
Why would he lower his power to a point where he can’t tag roshi it simply makes zero sense
He should be able to do that
Hell there was no need to even lower his power as roshi could not hurt him if he just stood there
Either way bad writing is still bad writing
son Goku
I just picked up an ant and droped outside my house, without harming it.
This is basically the same thing.
No fucking way that ant can beat me even if it was a black belt times 1000000
Can’t wait to see Black Frieza against Wajirobé in the next arc 🤣
LOL haha
LMFAOOOOOOOO
He would be so fast even Gods can’t sense him.
Jokes aside, he does deserve some shine...Maybe a spinoff series?
This series has power scaling?
The Anime That Shits on DBS *POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!*
hey- dont compare FMA or FMBA to Db
@Exposing Super Manga fanboys u make it both db and z had perfect power scaling
I honestly really enjoyed the manga up until the tournament, the Trunks arc made a few weird changes but it was at least entertaining. This arc has just been boring and annoying with it's changes.
I agree, but at the same time there's only so much one guy can do with a story that's already been told, especially one as basic as a tournament. The only real freedom Toyo has here is who fights who.
@FullTimeSlacker he didn't "change" anything because he clearly said that it's a different story.
FullTimeSlacker
He is filling telling the story Toriyama told him to tell. And changes are usually more suited to the medium any way.
Somethings in the anime where done as spectacles but most of those things wouldn’t fly in the manga. Conversely there are somethings Toyotarou can and has fleshed out that Toei wouldn’t spare time on.
And when it comes to the current arc, it’s no secret it’s being rushed by the publisher. Otherwise he’d flesh it out like he did the previous arc.
@@leftyjoness I thought he could FIX the problems the series had. Oh trunks has a weird spirit sword? Just say he trained with king Kai. Stuff like that.this is justbad fan fiction for NO reason.
i feel this last arc is in too much of a hurry
The excuses people come up with to defend this happening are ridiculous. As a fan of the franchise for 19 years I feel like their not even trying anymore because they know fans will still support bullshit illogical writing like this. Not just the manga but also the anime. DBZ had its flaws but nothing nearly as bad as some of the crap Super has done.
In all fairness the manga and anime are ran by 2 very different groups
Lol like android 17 being mad strong, idk how he got that strong but I mean the fights are cool
Connor Schultz neither have done a very good job honestly.
Honestly 39 was one of the most consistent chapters (in a good way), as it focuses on needing both skill and power to defeat Jiren as Goku focusing on power doesn’t work and Roshi with no power tuckered himself out dodging 5-6 attacks.
The fan base is basically like Goku at that point, only caring about pure power, when in reality it’s how you use it that matters.
It’s brilliant writing when you break it down outside of nearly two decades of head canon.
Super era in general is pretty whack (and that's putting it kindly)
That's one of the reasons why I agree with LSM's ideas to either give the show breaks so they have more time to properly produced the show or just have DB become a movie series at this point.
DBS as a whole always has the element of things getting rushed at the expense of quality to meet some quota.
Moving forward they really need to just let the series have breathing room to be made. It's one of the most popular animes in the world, I don't think it's going to suffer from not always being 100% active.
The introduction of god ki was a perfect opportunity to make a new power system which could make characters besides Goku and Vegeta relevant. They simply had to make it acessible for non Saiyans. Something simple like " Only god ki can defeat god ki" would be enough. Instead, it was used like another saiyan exclusive multiplier. Nothing special. Hit and Frieza didn't even need it to kick Goku's butt.
Trying to ignore power scaling in a show all about power scaling is a spit in the face of anyone who's paying attention.
Well, at least Roshi had it's moments.
Perhaps toriyama put somewhere in the manuscript to give roshi a moment before eliminating him? He definitely had a moment in the anime maybe the guy who makes the manga just made that agesnt the main antag?
Ikr? It was the perfect plot item for the Z-fighters relevance without any asspulls. I would've bought Gohan fighting Kefla evenly that way. EVEN KEFLA VS SSJBKK GOKU WOULD BE MORE BELIEVABLE IF KEFLA HAS GOD KI.
Luiz Felipe here's an idea. What if the FighterZ story was adapted into an anime arc? The human souls (lets say there's a different one for each storyline) could become actual characters. When they possess characters that can use god ki (Goku and Vegeta) they get access to god ki themselves. Then when the souls possess a human fighter, the human is temporarily powered up to god level while possessed. The souls then become recurring characters that help out the weaker Z Fighters when god level threats show up. How's that for a way to make the humans relevant again? And as a bonus, Android 21 would be canon.
Gabriel Blas Well Kelfa does have LSSJ/Berserker so if Broly can beat SSB Goku then surely she can as well.
This actually would have made sense. God Ki can be trained but they must be able to sense it first, then cultivate it into a power useable against other God Ki users.
This would have given the barely used Z-fighters a chance to catch up to Goku and actually have use in the series again where only saiyans had any plot relevance starting as far back as the Cell saga.
This series sorely needs a power level reset.
In before Seth makes a response
BurningBijuu what video?
BurningBijuu people should've stopped taking him serious when he said Base Goku>ssbe or when he said ssj2 was 1000x base
th-cam.com/video/zti1vgL8big/w-d-xo.html funny how you say seth will respond when this video is indirectly is a response.
Bijuu Broly's a chump and you know it. Stop lying to yourself and admit that Broly stopped being a threat once the Cell Saga ended.
If you have a problem with what he said then just debate him. He wants people to prove him wrong.
Its funny that even after this chapter their are still people who defend the manga
Landon Legate yet most manga haters defend the anime's inconsistent writing and power scaling
For the most part, I find the manga more consistent than the anime in terms of plot and power scaling, but the POW arc for the manga is just horrendous in power scaling. That new chapter is a fucking joke
@@Gokuvsnaruto22 just read the comments on geekdom101's manga reviews
@@tuanpham-ph6fv i agree
To be fair the manga is still better than the anime at least
I honestly like this direction. The powerscaling in Dragon Ball is suffocating. I'd appreciate a little bit more brainpower to these DB fights and not just gaining a bigger number than your opponent. If this is the case, then it could potentially open up many opportunities for other characters to close that ludicrous gap that Dragon Ball made between Saiyans and Humans.
I agree would love to see more of the Z fighers
Preach brothers, people have been complaining for years that weaker fighters do literally nothing, but now that there's one example of one weaker fighter doing one cool thing, everybody hates it.
All the fans who complained about humans being useless in dbz complained about this scene
You can’t ever plaese db fans💀
@@leultrainstinct406 I don't think the atleast most rational fans have a problem with Humans doing more. It's just when things like this come out of left field that breaks the internal consistency or logic of the series that a lot of people responded with so much vitriol.
In other words either build up the Humans or whoever training in some way and then show case their power or maybe a new techinque that turns the tide. Rather than just 'I'm this strong now because plot' Sure Saiyans kind of thrive on that latter part, but they atleast have built in mechanics that allow them to do that. But if they can't find a way to convey the growth of Humans properly then have them fight more minion type characters like in the Moro arc or something, where they still have the chance of contributing and not have to get trounced by the big bad or pull whatever Roshi did.
But that’s the thing, unless the humans and weaker characters themselves get a noticeable power boost, then any scenario where they do something useful is fucking asinine. What good is skills and brain power when the opponent is quite literally trillions of times faster? You could have stellar martial arts skills that trumps anyone else’s skill in the battlefield, but you don’t land a single blow and get blitzed with a single strike too fast for you to see.
At this point, it’s too late for the old “weaker characters can bridge the gap with skill and ingenuity.” The weakest of the “main fighters” is still millions of times stronger than the strongest of the “weak fighters.” At this point, for them to make a difference and fulfill that old trope, they DO need bigger numbers. They need to be in the same court as the main fighters before they can even dream of using skill and ingenuity.
Otherwise, as I said before, it looks fucking asinine.
Simple answer, anime and manga love old men, they respect them. So they do not care if it doesn't work
So king piccalo should be able to one shot Jiren since he one shot master roshi
Yes
Roshi never one shot jiren… and king piccolo was able to one shot a roshi with a power level of 139 and his power level in ToP is 10m
Master Roshi couldn't even touch King Piccolo. Hell, his power level never even cracked 300 in Z. Yet he can fight Jiren who's probably in the trillions with some bullshit off screen training excuse. If you can suddenly win fights with "experience" then why couldn't Master Roshi fight Raditz, or Cell or Buu. Why didn't he help with the fight with Zamasu if he has "experience". Why couldn't Goku beat Frieza when Frieza had no fighting experience. Master Roshi was literally furniture in Z and even weaker than even Chaziotu. He shouldn't of even been able to even touch any of the Frieza soldiers because they were all stronger than Raditz. Now all the sudden he can fight characters with "experience" when in all Z only strength and speed mattered. The writing in both the anime and manga are pure garbage and it can't be defended at all
Except I'd hardly call it a "fight". He dodged like 5 attacks, had _his_ only attack blocked, and then got KOed by a single chop to the back. Jiren was clearly just caught off guard by the old man's maneuvering. What would you have him do in the tournament? Sit around with his thumb up his ass?
Lefty Jones i am so sick of everyone using the "caught off guard" bullshit argument. When characters in Z were "caught off guard" it still meant nothing. Remember when Vegeta attacked frieza in his 2nd form and he was off guard and it did literally nothing to him. And I don't care how "off guard" someone is if the other person is stronger it means nothing. If An Ant caught a dinosaur off guard would it be able to hurt it at all? No. U can't defend this writing. A chop by Jiren should of instantly killed roshi no way he should even be able to take a finger tap from Jiren he's literally stronger than a god of destruction whereas Roshi logically should be king piccolo level. Roshi shouldn't be able to dodge a SINGLE attack by a character like Jiren who was faster than Hit's time skip
Andrew Garfield
Lefty is right. It was all laid out by Toyotarou as well.
It’s not bad writing by any stretch. At this point the fan base is caught up in pure power over everything just like Goku was in the chapter.
Toyotarou was taking what worked in the original first half of Dragon Ball and making it relevant to the pure power scale of Z.
Just cause it doesn’t fit with the head canon developed over a decade doesn’t make it bad writing.
One difference between Toei and Toyotarou is that Toei is purely focusing on the Power Scaling abused in Z while Toyotarou is going back to elements of earlier days and making them relevant again.
But I understand where the hate is coming from, but it’s not possible to use the decades of head canon to break down this chapter.
Andrew Garfield
Youre ignoring the fact that Jiren held back *and* he used a form of UI. So no, the powerscaling is on point there.
TonyMishima92
Actually Roshi didn’t use UI, he used principles “similar” but not actually UI.
But even so the power scaling isn’t broken as people make it out to be. Toyotarou laid out his intentions throughout the chapter.
Can y'all please stop hating on master roshi 😂 the nigga has showed us time and time again that he got mad skills, the homie hasn't been relaxing why Goku and Vegeta have been training he's been doing some training of his own, yes even the turtle hermit can improve during his old days like come on it doesn't need that much explaining to figure it out
Well Powerscaling in the tournament of power never made sense, so what ever... The manga cannot break what is allready broken.
So who realy cares if roshi, who couldn't defeat king picollo, can doge punshes from jiren, if Kale could tank a super saiyan blue kamehameha and then have no chance with her best friend in a 2vs1 against a tired super saiyan 2 goku and all the other stuff.
Lmao this title is brilliance. Thanks for keeping it real. Seriously
King how this is one of the best anime chapter period
Prior to the tournament, Roshi trained via Pornhub and got a gigantic hentai boost, and as a result of having too much testosterone, he was able to revive his old man gains in the gym which surpassed the Godly Gains of the Jacked Jiren. This is the perfect explanation and makes perfect sense as to why. Stop being a hater and accept that Master Roshi has returned to pumping the iron.
For the longest time, I convinced myself that Super is just a soft reboot of the entire series...I know that's not the case but that's the only way any of this can make sense. It's like when Ash goes to another region and Pikachu goes back to level 1 for some reason...
DBS is a new series with new rules, because by DBZ rules nobody except goku and vegeta should ever do anything or even show up
@@thedarklordx I wouldn't say that exactly, in Z everyone did their part for most of the series...it doesn't really get like that till the second half of the Buu arc.
That doesn't make sense how super is a soft reboot
@@hamzamansoor34 Obviously it isn't one officially. I'm saying that's how I look at it personally, the story continues where it left of, but the character's are reset to a lower level and the univere's rules have retconned and changed so much to benefit this new story they're telling. It's kind of is a soft reeboot in a way, and Dragonball has done this multiple times before.
@@JoseGarcia-rg3dx ummmm no ur comment makes no sense super didnt reboot anything sure it did some rectconed here and there but the main point is that super is made just to tell us on what happened in the 10 year time skip
How is it even possible to suppress yourself to Hercule level when you are God level NANI do you even physics ? How did people come up with such trash theories doesn't it take like evidence to make it a theories or what.
Tyjuan Taylor hercule dodged kid buu’s attacks. Nuff said
@@Vageta1999 He still can't compare to Jiren your comparing someone with a DB power level to someone with a higher eshilan DBS power level you just can't do it but back to my point how is it mentally and physically fucking possible for someone at Jiren power level to be suppressed to the point where he is at Hercule's power level which is like 25 when ones own is like a decillion time that it just should not be possible.
@@Vageta1999 And brother or sister don't know yo gender and don't want to assume when that happened Buu was not trying to kill Hercule he was trying fuck him up Loki he could of one shoted him.
“Buu was not trying to kill Hercule” is literally all the proof of suppression you need. Buu suppressed himself to DB levels of power to not kill him.
And accodrding to you, why that doesn't have any sense?
You literary saw in all the fucking series Goku or Gohan surprissing their powers against normal humans, because that's how DB logic works regardless of your head canon.
A character can be millions, billions, octillions, or whatever you want stronger, but they still have the capacity to use and reduce their power like they want.
Again, we literarly saw in all the series that they have that capacity.
Thank thank thank you! This chapter was ridiculous! Ive always looked at the manga with a grain of salt but this tournament of power has been freaking retarted
Roshi was literally weaker than even Yamcha from day 1 in Z, a Yamcha that hadn't even went to Kami's let alone Kai's and Super wants to make us believe he became pretty much the strongest human overnight by training alone on his Island? No matter how many times we actually saw him doing nothing and that it was clear from the start he was much less gifted than his human disciples.
I like the idea of making technique and martial arts coming back, but it's too little, too improvised and too late to be satisfying in any capacity.
Facts! All of what you mentioned is exactly why I’m so done with dbs and especially after what happened in the granola arc/hero movie. Nothing makes sense anymore as it would seem hypocritical nonsense is dragonball’s driving force nowadays! All I have to say is this: make power scaling great again!!
The anime wasn't perfect, but I could swallow the fact that Roshi used the stuff we knew he could (Mafuba and Lightning Surprise) and worked it into his strategy well. He did nearly die at least, forcing him out to take a senzu, maybe he mastered the move more off screen. Yeah maybe he got stronger too, although that doesn't justify the huge power gap he overcame. The manga on the other hand is pure nonsense, has been for a while and reads like awful fanfiction. PS Frost is definitely the type to toy with his enemy.
seriously,for once it's clear that this time the manga is the one that's not cannon.
Yeah anime is somewhat understandable even tho he is still way too strong i mean king piccolo is weak af and he beat roshi
Yet roshi fights with freezer soldiers and even frost to some degree
@@emreyigit4122 No, the anime version was still stupid too.
Super 17 is now officially a good arc
Mo DBGT
Super is a cash grab 💰
stabinghobo57 Realtalk
So we're not allowed to say Jiren is suppressed in the manga but in the anime we can?
As long as you learn the difference between being suppressed and becoming an entirely different fighter.
Spectaa a like Goku sparing with UUb at the end of Z
He wasn't suppressed lol just accept it.
In the anime you can usually clearly tell how much power he's using
No amount of suppression would make jiren close to roshi. Jiren flexing shook an infinite void.
Off topic but Gohan is Piccolo's son confirmed
Boy.......wait I mean girl
stop
@Kenneth Stenson Ultra Instinct roshi
@@hanzohasashi844 lol
For the next arc, Pual and Oolong will be facing Extra Mega Red Jiren.
Jokes aside, I think it's somewhat cool they left power scaling aside a bit. Even if it means retconning A LOT, on the downside.
what a shitty joke, who the fuck is Pual?
i like this, it points out the suppression BS that people like to hide behind
TheonewhoQuacks people have been doing it in the anime when SSB Goku has a bean struggle with krillon.
They did it when kale walked through goku’s kamehameha.
They did for jiren when he kept getting stronger throughout the tournament. Where were you when all this happened in the anime?
Wake up, this isn’t anything new
@@Vageta1999 im not saying its new, just that most people shut up and go along with it and this is the first video ive seen call it out
TheonewhoQuacks
Dude, killing in this tournament is illegal. If Jiren hit Roshi with just 1% of his force, Roshi would die. So it's not "bs". It's a verifiable FACT that shouldn't be ignored, and it was within the range that Roshi's false UI could work. Then Jiren got slightly more serious, and knocked him off with one hit. You people make issues out of nothing and I'm sick of this ridiculous fanbase.
@@TonyMishima92 you forget that this is the most toxic community of all time lol
Simon Jeremy
What about one punch man?
Master Roshi just had a BEST hand job from Toriyama-san
Master roshi is old as shit... I personally like how they gave him the idea of knowing how to move well... he didn’t actually do ultra instinct... but he understands the fundamental concept of it without even knowing what he’s at the surface of
Yes no one can understand it
So, here's the reason everyone hates it. It's because they fell into the trap that power levels create. Instead of comprehending the lesson Roshi was teaching. He's not more powerful than any of these people in a straight fight. Doesn't need to be, because power levels are bullshit. He doesn't need to be faster, because he can see and anticipate. That's the entire fucking point that Whis is making. Roshi's centuries of training as a sennin have given him mushin, or something close to it, which is a few steps down from the autododge that is Ultra Instinct, but it's a solid baseline. It also works in the context of the manga because Roshi's doing this to teach Goku how to use it. Rather than him just absorbing the spirit bomb like a battery (don't do that. Never ever swallow a power source bigger than your head), he had to be taught, and the fandom needed a rap on the knuckles to remind them of this.
But, dude, Jiren is like, millions of times faster than Roshi, he just cant dodge it
I'm probably the only person who likes this portrayal of Roshi. It all goes hand in hand with his experience
Hell yeah mangatard. Not like hit has 1000 years old when all he does is assassinate and ofc he had to fight most of the time. Not like he 1 shotted goku and was even with kaioken . Hits time skip definetly doesnt mean shit but roshis fake ui its definetly better lmao
@@faceagain5703 keep crying. That will totally save the manga that you didn't invent.
Bringbleachback I love how much of a bully you are. Are we really calling people retards because they like something you don’t? What are we in third grade lol. Please get a life
liking and defending something blindly are 2 DIFFERENT things. Idgaf if u like a pile of shit but dont defend when other people call their bullshit out.
Being rationals means crying over something lmao. Nice arguments . Mangatards would defend this shit to their deaths
I think they're trying to retcon the power level thing. It really writes them into a corner. It doesn't make this any less of an inconsistency but I do feel like that's what they're doing:future proofing the series.
UI roshi should be like max power raditz lol
Depends on what UI and MUI multipliers are. Roshis max is below 300.
This has nothing to do with Power levels. . What Roshi did was great movement, but he can't hit harder than Krillin
@@bryllewesleytolentino7858
Neither should he move faster than krillen either
Toyotaro didn't trace that picture. We went over this. It's over.
Honestly the Manga is highly overrated. The Dragon Ball Super Anime isn’t 100 % perfect but still it way better in terms of narrative, fights and scaling. The Anime ain’t perfect but more consistent and believable than this crap manga in my opinion
Super Fanboys actually both the anime and manga has bad scaling
Yet in the anime beserker kale was able to make Goku turn blue and tank a SSJB kamehameha but later her strongest state is weaker than SSJG? You call that accurate power scaling?
The manga power scaling is more consistent compare to the anime.
Andrew Garfield like I said, neither manga nor anime of Super is 100% consistent with itself but the Anime (in my opinion) makes way more sense out of the two
Goku was at a supressed ssjb agasint kale, if your thinking kale bersrker form is sssjb teir. Than that means that krillin and 18 is ssjb level. Manga's power scaling is retarded since the black arc, somehow fp ssj2 trunks is close to ssj3 goku(but trunks states that his fp ssj2 form was fodder to base form black). Somehow black in his ssj form(which is a x50 multiplier to his base form, which is above ssj3 overall) gets shit stomped by ssj2 vegeta. Also the roshi's asspull makes no sense, as well a exerted ssjb vegeta somehow obliterates two merged zamasu... is terrible power scaling in the manga thus far.
son Goku in the anime goku powered up twice as SSJ2 and was suppressed, after UI Omen vs Jiren he’s comfortable fighting Caulifla in base and she states he got stronger (adapting and/or Zenkai) even Whis states that Kefla is producing similar energy to the Spirit Bomb he was trying to throw at Jiren and was getting right back up as Blue (can’t remember exactly the scene). You mean to tell me Base Gohan = SSJ Kefla> Pride Troppers> Berserk Kale> Golden Frieza and Master Roshi =< Suppressed Jiren > Mastered SS Blue Goku and Hit in the manga makes more sense and is more consistent than my points with the anime then the Anime would pimp slap the manga version no problem
i dont find it too crazy. Roshi is in a sense not a normal fighter but a Sennin (sage). The capacity to dodge on instinct is reminiscent of other sages in anime like Oro from street fighter or sage transformation in Naruto. Just think of it as a separate independent ability from power level. They didnt emphasize this aspect of Roshi's character in Dragon ball because he was supposed to pass the mantle then. We have seen a few characters with weird abilities separate from power like Guldo's time stop, Dabura's spit or majin buu's transformation beam, so why not roshi having an imperfect form of future sight to dodge?
I think the Super did a good job showing that Roshi relies on observation, strategy and a huge list of unconventional tecniques to punch far above his weight. To be fair , it never made sense how super weak frieza soldiers who needed guns to perform ki blasts where supposed to be leagues above legit martial art legends like Roshi or even Crane Hermit.
Another thing we saw was that even super saiyan goku gets hurt if you throw a rock at his head. So despite these characters being planet busters, you dont even need THAT much brute strength to hurt them.
idk why people keep defending power levels to be honest, it was a plot to device to establish A>B in the saiyan and frieza saga. The fact super kind of dispensed with them was a plus not a minus. Besides anyone who analyzes power levels long enough realizes they only make sense by adding dozens of ad hoc rules to make sense of situations.
PREACH! I swear you're the only one that actually sees the foolishness in the DBS power scaling nonsense
Lol Jiren was not even trying guys.Just stop already...
It doesn’t even matter.He still got oneshoted!
Bujar Shabaj people just like bitching dude.
Funny enough It does matter actually
Roshi impressed the gods which should not even be possible
Gun Blade Why would anyone care.Manga is stupid AF!
Right? People are acting as if Roshi actually _hurt_ Jiren or some shit. He literally dodged like 5 attacks, had his one attack blocked, then got KOed by a single chop to the back. I don't even care for the manga, but complaining about _this_ to such great extent is just dumb.
Lefty Jones I totally agree with you dude
I agree that the powerscaling is pretty wacky in Super. Then only thing though, is that if they kept going with the powerscaling from Z the only characters that would matter would be Goku, Vegeta and Frieza. It just wouldn't be nearly as interesting if they were the only characters that we see doing cool stuff. I am not defending the Master Roshi in the manga flub, but I am just saying realistically all the participants in the Tournament of Power minus those 3 would be bodied in a second if they went with powerscaling.
Jirens speed = billions of times faster then light (using 2% of his true power)
Roshis speed = slower then a saibamen
"I like pay checks." - toriyama and toyotaro
Billilns of times faster than light? Lol, Jesus you db tards really like to go overboard with your calculations.
All characters in db was just fast that eye cant see lol never mentioned they are faster than light
*Billions* of times faster than light? Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
And Why would Jiren use that kind of speed against a weak Old Man who is weaker than Krillin?
Joke fell far over your head.
The mafuba's drain is unaffected by the opponent's power, only the user's. It almost killed him, because his power level was significantly below what it is now. If it was affected by opponent's power level, Trunks would have died after using it on Zamasu.
Same thing with goku as well
true
Roshi is stronger than a god of destruction and has been since the original series, he just holds himself back because he is a true master and doesn't want to discourage their growth.
Holy shit, this may be the harshest teardown of a series i've ever heard lol.
Roshi helping goku realize ui was one of the greatest moments in the franchise
5:00 I'm watching dragonball for the first time right now and I'm 2-3 episodes away from jackie chun vs tien and now I encounter spoilers
Lol
Just like how cringy it was when Frieza said to Toppo ( in God of destruction mode) and i quote
'Then how about this power to destroy an entire planet'
IS THIS A TROLL OR LAZY WRITING?
I'm entirely on your side on this myself. The one and only argument I would give in favor of jaren holding back, Is that there was a no killing rule For the tournament of power, Therefore him holding back immensely would make sense because he'd be afraid that if he did one shot Roshi he'd probably Kill him.
In saying that, There's zero reason why a hit for master roshi would do more damage to jiren than roshi's hand.
,I actually buy his repeated use of the evil containment wave. In the anime he only used it Three times to my recollection right? And after the second time he said that using it a third would come with a great risk. Ask for him dying after the 1st use yes that did happen for sure. Tien however used it and didn't die when he was only slightly stronger than roshi. So if we're assuming that master roshi trained in secret and was able to get a power level of at least ten thousand, Three uses doesn't seem like too much of a stretch. Kami himself was also able to use it without too much exertion.
Oh please...everybody knows Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris are both way faster than the flash could ever hope to be.
Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris are faster than existence.
Bruce Lee and chuck Norris are faster than my mom calling me to come eat when I start a online game
Thanks for being the voice of reason Mike. I swear this Arc is making me hate Roshi a lot and I don't want that to happen because Roshi is a cool and wise character but the fact that they decided to put him in the roster instead of Goten or Trunks and have him do well against guys that are a lot stronger than him because of his quote on quote "experience" is mind boggling.
Honestly all that was said in this video was mostly nonsense dude .-., what do you mean "unrealistic that he could fight so we'll", why is that? He hasn't had a big role in the series since db original, and from the beginning of dbz to the ToP it's about 10+ years, him training all that time isn't unbelievable or anything, and also your argument about experience was broken down by the series itself, literally roshi told Goku that in order to win he doesn't need more power -_-, y'all ignored basically all the plot and called it bad writing because you "thought" it doesn't make sense
@elpapu xDD In dragon ball for the longest time power was everything, sure experience and techniques help however the person with the higher power level in general wins the fight. And about the part where you claim Goku doesn't need power to beat Jiren, he needed power to win. Ultra instinct isn't just a technique it also boosts the users' speed, power, and defense. Would dragon ball be better if experience alone plays a major role? Yes, it would. However, it's far too late in the series to make it work. Especially if the guy who was experienced confirmed to be a weakling tried to fight a guy who was stronger than his God of destruction.
@@elpapuxDDReal ; One of the biggest problems with the writing in Dragon Ball, and a lot of manga, is that it requires the audience to assume and fill in the holes that the writers didn't bother to. E.g. if the plan was for Roshi to make a comeback, why wasn't he ever shown training beforehand? If we saw him training to tap into God Ki and Ultra Instinct before the tournament, and it's shown while he's sparring with Goku (they can at least hint at it here), then most of us would appreciate the writers forethought and preparation. Even admire how they are willing to take the new material that was presented to Super and apply it in interesting ways. It even makes sense if Piccolo and Roshi could tap into it. However, it's never shown, and it never happens, instead he's able to perform feats that go completely unexplained and contradict the reader's perception of the character. Basically, it's lazy writing -- after all, it's the goals of the writer to make the universe make sense, not the readers or youtubers.
Shouldnt u hate the writers for that not roshi???
I'm mad Roshi is here and not Yamcha. Yamcha easily jumped Roshi in OG Dragon Ball. How the hell would Roshi fight in Super?!
UI Roshi is something I love in concept, but this is super fucking wrong. Suppression and “caught off guard” are legitimate arguments in some cases, but this is just bad writing.
I enjoyed his scaling in the anime, as there were several times in Z where you could infer that Roshi was training or had gotten stronger.
I don't get how you can be a "hardcore Super defender"... This show is a spit in the face to the original manga.
Meanwhile I'm here just enjoying that this is actually happening at all because I don't take this series seriously.
After seeing frieza getting an huge power boost catching up to goku and vegeta in 4 months I stop taking power scaling seriously
manga is not better still miss the kaioken blue. That reveal was so nostalgic so good. Manga is fixing the wrong issues also goku hakai O.o
This didn't age well
Roshi was so weak that Jiren had to avoid killing him. That is Why Roshi was able fight Jiren for a while. Think about it. If you had to use 1/billionth of your power. The degree of control required to achieve it would be astronomically difficult. The rules of tournament of power backfired. If it was a fight to the death, Roshi would have been done in by a finger. Deep inside, I know the writers fucked up. But this logic is at least justifiable.
Agreed! I loved ep 105 of the DBS anime. It had awesome character stuff for Roshi without too many inconsitencies when he actually learned lessons from his students. One thing that got to me however about roshi's writing in this chapter was how he asks Goku what strength means to him. After Goku's answer he says "plain old fighting strength?" "Who taught you that?" I immediatly got a flashback of Goku and Krillin wearing turtle shells during training to get stronger. Furthermore, Goku learned the lessons of speed through Dragon Ball and especially in the cell saga when they learn that ssj grade 3 sacrificed too much speed for power. So he should already know the importance of speed and wasted movements unless he just up and forgot which seems to be what they are going with here which just makes Goku look bad so that Roshi can "teach" his student, Who has been shown to have far surpassed him in every way, a "lesson."
But people who defend the manga pretend this development didn't occur for Goku and that he is learning something profound in this chapter. What makes it even funnier is that Goku actually does need more power than anything as he's not even able to hurt Jiren with all the hits he's landing.
Throughout the series, Goku has focused more on gaining power through his transformations than on actually improving his martial arts. He's become too dependent on how strong he is compared to his opponent, so he FORGOT about all of those important aspects of fighting.
Power will definitely HELP you win a battle, but it isn't the most important thing. That's what Goku needed to be reminded of.
@@kenstorm707 bro that is your head cannon not the actual facts so stop capin for bad writing because we all know the reason why this is happening is because they don't care about consistency and they are they are trying to make goku stupid
@@notamethadict How's it head canon if that's literally what's said in the manga? Roshi asked him why he was losing, and Goku said it was because he didn't have a strong enough transformation.
You can call it bad writing (not that you have any clue what bad writing is), but saying it's just head canon is a fallacy, since it's right there in the manga.
@@kenstorm707 bro I understand bad writing and super is full of it
The main reson people say the manga is better is because it "portrays goku and vegetas power better"
The Goku learning the hakai makes sense, Whis could have taught it too him, or Beerus used it before near him. We didn't see it but best way I can see it happening
Imply it through plot or show it on screen, don't just have characters doing random shit out of nowhere and force the audience to fill in the blanks with head canon.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 well super was bad at writing with the anime, the manga, Gohan said he's doing gravity training, so we have no idea how crazy it was, maybe 9000x or more but kale was bad, but they just took the broly approach with making it more like the ssj grade 3. Bad writing but, easy too get passed. Roshi was the only one that had so many problems with the power scaling you need every single method of making it make some sense too make it work.
@@KaiserMattTygore927 I'm just saying, if there really making roshi retire, making him be a key factor too how Goku gains the power too beat Jiren is the best way they saw it. I think they should have just kept Goku facing Jiren and made Roshi just face someone else and tell Goku his speech and after roshi got his opponent out Jiren is just shooting Ki blast at roshi and pushing him too the edge, Roshi use his version of ultra instincts and Goku is watching and trying too help by attacking Jiren but Jiren is just using one hand too handle Goku and the other too attack Roshi, Roshi is still trying too help Goku and Goku is getting angrier and angrier, until roshi is finally knocked off once Jiren speed blitz roshi and chop his neck knocking him off and that's what drives Goku over the edge and we get omen Goku, or roshi falling tells Goku too just stay calm and too just let it go, giving it a 16 Easter egg for the fans and Goku finally listens too his master and we get a few manga panels of Goku remembering everything he was taught and Jiren is rushing towards him, and right when was going too hit Goku, we see Goku dodge, and we see the omen eye's appear and disappear, Jiren is using more attacks and Goku is dodging but when Jiren gets sick of it, he just launched a engery blast and Goku tried too dodge and the last second the omen form is gone and Goku is hit by the blast, with Goku getting hit and all we see is Goku on the ground with us waiting for the new chapter.
No you need to be a god of destruction to use god of destruction energy so how the hell is goku going to learn hakai it makes no sense
@@brandongarzon5203 your aware you saying that makes it so every God of Destruction was just born able to use it right. They learn from there Angel. I was saying that Goku learned it from Whis, or saw Beerus use it and just copied it
People are getting WAY too butthurt over this chapter lol 😂😂😂
They just don't know how to enjoy things 😑
My take on this is that, it should make sense. Roshi has lived for many years and is truely a master of master artists. So I never understood why in Z they played him down so hard core. I like this idea in principle, but it just came out of nowhere with Roshi’s current lack of any development.
kyrudo
If Z handled Roshi better the fan base wouldn’t be so out of shape.
Remember Launch. Toriyama didn’t. Glad he remembered Roshi at all.
the problem with the experience thing is that Hits experience is about double that and he got destroyed by jiren.there is now way to logically allow roshi to fight jiren.even if I allow for the "he was secretly training" excuse,at best he might have caught up to krillin and tien,and even that is a huge stretch.but even if I say he did,those two wouldnt be anywhere near strong enough to fight jiren.so no,there is no way roshi should have been able to.
For those who don't know, Goku, Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien, and even Krillen and Yadjarobi were much stronger than Roshi by the end if OG DB. There is no way Roshi could have fought in Z, and Super
For reference, Raditz was 6 - 7.5 times stronger than Roshi's peak in OG DB hahahahahaha
"A kids show"
Am I the only person who remembers the Goku Black Arc where we had a villain with his eyes set on Genocide, which in both versions he does actually somewhat manage to pull off?
At this rate, especially considering you know DBS is a sequel to Z which had great moments like that time Cell blasted Gohan's arm and it was soaked in blood and broken beyond any modern science's comprehension.
Those thing you mention are common in shonen anime, which are rated for young teens, so not really a big deal.
It's for teens then, not a Kids show.
A kids show doesn't have genocidal maniacs... Or at least, has them at least way more tame then Zamasu with his Zealous mania.
Well, we got a count of premeditated murder.
I'd say the Black arc was darker than the Buu arc. Still the overall Android arc remains as the darkest arc ever in DB, it has very next to no comedy moments.
Saw Geekdoms video reveiw of the manga. And yours. And I agree. I love the U6 arc in the manga more than the anime. But as time has gone on the manga is definitely worse. Both supers adaptations are littered with major problems. Yeah Super is making shitloads of cash right now. But how are those figures gonna look a decade from now? I hate Gt. And as such I own nothing with the brand. Meaning they can't make money off the GT brand with me because it sucks so hard. How many other fans are in that boat? A lot. And Super is heading right for that shitberg as well.
Eh, the Broly movie is strangely shaping up to be something interesting. Who would've thought a reboot would've worked out so well?
GT > Super
I imagine it'll be exactly like gt. People trash it except for the cool forms. Ultra instinct, Jiren, and MAYBE the saiyan girls will be looked on favourably
@@stabinghobo57 plz explain how is gt>super
The same gt which got cancelled because it was so bad
Like Japan would give a shit about the West since when toei ever listened to an American fanboy if super is heading for that shit berg than how hasn't been cancelled yet why cause the Japanese fans love super unlike gt which they hated it
It's impossible to give non-main characters/ old characters powerful moments because they have been left far behind. They must either have a moment in the spotlight with strange reasoning or they have no moment in the spotlight at all. It's hard to blame the writing staff Z and Super and any other Anime and Manga when they are tasked with giving fans the characters they like even though, realistically, those characters have little place in the story anymore.
... I hate that we analyze this stuff so much. I just like Dragon ball looking cool and Roshi getting the spotlight is badass to me
"... like 1990's Professor X" Dude, I'm dying! XD
It's because of this that I honestly have no care to even watch Dragonball Super. Toriyama clearly doesn't care anymore so why should I.
Would have been interesting if Jiren had to hold back so much because he had to avoid killing roshi and being disqualified. If you were in a tournament and told to fight an ant without killing it you are you would have a stupidly hard time doing so and it might apear that the ant is doing well when really it's just you trying not to kill it. Another way could have been Jiren having respect for an old man and not wanting to break his spine. Either could have worked for a fight between such absurd difference
I liked Mutant Roshi vs Jerin personally I thought that Roshi being close to UI makes sense with how old he is and we don't know the training he has been doing but he has been training since he could stand up to freezas army fairly well and if he continued his training and with his true mastery of the martial arts it makes sense that he would be approaching a new power. Remember before Roshi we didn't have any sort of Kai control
I like how when he spoke to goku and told him to think back to his training, it was a good call back and foreshadowed ultra instinct but it’s still ridiculous, master roshi is weak asf
@@Shawn.Mathew Master Roshi has trained for over 300 years yeah his body is old and weakend but the muscle memory to move without thinking would be ingrained in him. I still personally liked this move in the manga, and found it to be neat, granted now Toyatoro is just stealing from Naruto with the Granolha arc, and hasn't done anything interesting with Super Hero.
@@-VinnieWilson02- so master roshi who at this point is past his prime, was able to get owned by demon king piccolo but now fast forward to now he can’t hold his own against jiren, and this is also the same guy who effectively retired after seeing tien and goku rise up, it’s lazy writing
Maybe, *just maybe* power levels don't work like you think they should?
Fuck the haters. Roshi is the greatest good vid though
This is like that dumb comic where Muhammad Ali fought Superman in a boxing match
The show has become a wealth of retcons now. Applying logic to this is itself illogical
Rectones? What rectones
It took Roshi 50 years to learn the Kamehameha, so you can stop all arguments about him training off screen right there! It took Kid Goku 5 seconds to copy it. COPY IT, not learn it. He didn’ t need to be taught. He is a prodigy. And then Roshi pretty much tells him that he is not paying attention, like he never thought about “Dodging”. It’s all retarted beyond retarted. And Goku is been a parody of himself in DBS. AnywAys, since Torishima isn’t Toriyama’s editor anymore, it turned to nonsense.
Woah, this type of explanation, the narrative behind it and the commentary is so good. It's like something I didn't know I needed until now, because in the dragon ball community it's rare. Keep up the amazing work and don't stop what you're doing.
I mean comparing db super anime and manga is like comparing 2 turds and saying one smells worse.....
You don’t think Roshi was heavily underestimated by everyone and that that’s why everyone was surprised? You also think that Roshi doesn’t train, despite having gone from being less than King Piccolo level to taking out hundreds of members of Freeza’s army? And you think he hasn’t gotten way stronger since the resurrection f arc? Do you have any reason to find any of these statements false?
Roshi in manga and anime version of TOP should have easily defeated the sayians, frieza. If he could make a strong enough ki blast then even cell. And at least throw hands with buu...let alone both piccolos. All three humans in the top make 0 sense to me. All super had to say was "goku taught them god ki" and it woulda made massively more sense. You don't even have to show us just tell us 😂
Seth > laughingstockmedia
You got it the other way around
@@Akoom nope
@@sonGoku-cv4mz Except you do
@@Akoom not even
son Goku why you trying to start shit though?
I don't mind it as long as it can save some of the good characters of the series from the garbage bin.
Now bring back Yamcha, Toyotaro, you hack.
Roshi should still be weaker than YAJIROBE.
Mikey Mic no u idiot
Goku with sage mode is a 1000 times multiplier
@GenericMemer 1
I know you're joking, but I'm tempted to draw Goku in toad sage mode.
I agree with every point in this video 👏
Especially this point 10:30
Power scaling in shonen anime/manga has never been consistent. It's called plot armor for purpose of a cool series of panels and story. i can turn off my brain and enjoy a good fight
TLDR: roshi technique should not conquer someone who can move faster than the speed of light and probably bench press all the planets in the galaxy lol its bad writing at its finest. lazy too.
lmfao. so if the excuse is "characters are suppressed" then what is the point of the show???? if the argument is "so they dont blow up the planet" then my answer would be "then thats bad writing" one of the problem with Z and Super is that it does not and has never made it absolutely CLEAR that them exchanging fist could blow up the earth. the only argument someone could make is that they hold back their ki attack GREATLY. which is very true since characters like frieza and vegeta could blow up the earth and it wouldnt make sense for them to commit suicide...unless you are Buu lol. but seriously though its just bad writing. planet busting ki attacks should be the END goal for our z fighters but it was established way too early. frieza could blow up planets and so that power should have solely been left to him until damn near the end of Z. villains in Z and super are completely out of order. z should have been androids. cell second , frieza 3rd and Buu last in order of threat. with buu or frieza being the planet busters. also its just no way i can believw that characters can power up to such large amounts and not at least cause continent sized blast JUST BY ACCIDENT. its too controlled because the writing is out of hand. punching abd kicking should be causing earthquakes n shit. anyway though the only way roshi could be better than goku is if whis had the power to limit ppls powers. and in doing so limited goku to roshi level in which roshi would win since martial arts come more into play with such weaker strength and slower speed. but no matter how fakely powerful roshi is, it doesn't make sense for his technique to overpower someone with ki/energy more massive than planets and who can move faster than the speed of light. (which even raditz is faster than so imagine)
Vinnythesoda It all about Ki control/Attack potency.
Darth Titan the point is if you can’t control your power to hit someone without killing them then you have no reason to be in the tournament. If the rule didn’t exist Zeno would’ve gotten bored since lots of people would’ve died quickly.
If you can’t learn restrainment then you can’t be in tournaments. You might kill someone because you didn’t know when to refrain from hitting too hard. Which is why there is a referee to prevent a fight going to far. It’s not a difficult concept
THANK YOU! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS!
I LOOOOOOVE Dragonball, but these decisions and problems is one of the reasons why I can't deal with arguing with so many of these commentators about these things. From the "heavily suppressed to caught off guard to the "he's hundreds of times faster than light - never mind completely breaking the reasonable physics as we know it behind it; or Jiren can completely destroy the Multiverse!
Never mind the purpose and fear expressed by the gods over Zennos appearance. Never mind that the largest star exploding wouldn't expand its energies half way across a galaxy as small as a thousand light years in size.
The science or even fake science is so SUPER flawed in Dragonball that far too many fans hold to analysis that makes no sense.
I feel like Roshi is near ultra instinct, also he is just dodging, he isn't really doing damage so I don't see a problem and Jiren might actually be holding back because he lost his own master. I would have liked Roshi to go at him with actual martial arts and last lesson for Goku and then die
there's no way Roshi should be dodging hits from people who punch at light speeds
Don't underestimate the power of ultra instinct fap.
What if Roshi has been the strongest this whole time and is willing die to let others take the torch? Lol
I thought this said 4 hours ago 😂😂😂
It doesn’t make sense, but its fun. I just appreciate that older characters got some time to shine
Mh if you think about it, UI is a technique so humans can learn it .
Yes I know Master Roshi is not OP… but I liked that scene actually.
He did not defeat anyone but he showed him how to “clear his heart” and learn UI… somehow I guess.
"Frost stronger than Goku post god based form" hahahahahahahaha. If you are talking about the one time use (On RoF arc) base form of "Saiyan beyond god" i must say i don't agree. To me Frost lose to a SSj Goku which means he is clearly weaker to a ssj2 etc. That's one of the things i hate about the U6 vs u7 tournament. No one was strong except Hit and the God form Saiyans. They should dedicated screen time to train other characters, that's the whole problem with Dragon Ball Super and Gt. No training
This "Saiyan beyind god" bullshit shouldn't have been created in the first place. It only serves to create more problems and it indeed was used only in the RoF movie/arc. As for Frost... he was so "strong" that Frieza in his practically useless buffed form eliminated him with a single blast. Granted, it was somewhat a surprise attack - but the fact remains.
I agree, to me it was a nice concept, but since they only use it one time. It create more problems than anything.
In theory it was a decent concept but putting base forms of Goku and Vegeta so ridiculously high is just asking for problems. It'd make their ordinary SSJ forms useless (because why bother with those when they have god ki in their bases) and all of their opponents would have to be insanely strong to even make sense. That's why you see now people who think Frost or Cabba are stronger than the likes of Buuhan, it's all because of "Saiyan beyond god".
+Seru It could easily being fix, if all the new rivals/enemies were trained by the Angels or God of destruction. U6 vs U7 should have been that, but they didn't show any training of Piccolo or Buu with Whis. And later on with the likes of Krillin, Tien, Gohan, etc. All the participants of the Universe Tournament Arc, should have been that. Easy, why they didn't do was plain stupid. The stakes were high already. God levels rivals make more sense.
Aniraza, Dyspo, Toppo, Jiren, etc. Were all strong
This is really hard to ignore, even if you don't care about power scaling
This series ended perminantly after the Buu saga. Everything after is just a mess. You don't milk a cow that's been dead for decades.
In my opinion in should have ended after the Cell saga. That was the best ending we got except maybe the original DB’s ending.
I had the exact "Jiren is just suppressing himself" "he was caught off guard" replies when I replied over on Geekdom's similar video critiquing this mess. I just let it be. Can't be bothered to argue there. The anime version at least, at least, gave us a really good emotional moment with Goku and Roshi and it felt like it meant something, to the point Beerus even offers Roshi a notion of respect. That feeling of someone going beyond their limits to the point of sacrificing everything inspires. That doesn't make the scaling any less absurd, but at least there was something to it, something really respectful of the character in that regard and which meant something to the rest. Here, it looks like it's just something vomited on the page just because. Or just to get Goku to unlock ultra instinct, because God forbid this just follow the same path as the anime... I don't read this manga, I don't get this manga at all. Why make it if it's going to be completely different than the anime? DB has always stuck mostly to its source, which was Toriyama's manga, now the source is reversed and the manga is like an elseworld's tale.
Seems they shirked a more rigid following of power scaling in the anime, or in general, just to return DB to its more loose and comical roots. I do wish it was taken more seriously and not just exploding all over the place for no reason. But that's what it is... That latter point is crucial. Beings don't just have insane levels of power in Dragon Ball, they have insane levels of speed. There's no way on earth Jiren would be surprised by Roshi's movements, or have to dodge and block himself. Sorry to say, but Roshi wouldn't even be able to do this against Yamcha. He's just not fast enough, let alone strong enough, for any of that. But ol Yamcha was left alone in his apartment to talk to his cat...
The worst part of this Roshi incident is that he berates Goku for wanting more power and forgetting to focus on technique, which is immediately undone the moment Jiren beats Roshi with just his raw speed and power. Like that made the scene even worse than the obvious powerscaling issue.