Did Frieza Ruin Powerscaling? Dragon Ball
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- Did Frieza RUIN power scaling and power levels in Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball Super? Was Frieza too STRONG in Dragonball? Did transformations like Super Saiyan make the human characters like Tien, Yamcha, and Krillin totally irrelevant? Mike from Laughingstock Media discusses this topic and more in his newest In-Depth video!
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*Freiza gets beaten by super saiyan*
*trains for a month*
*Super saiyan God level*
seems legit
LeAndre McCoy and their excuse for this is "Freeza never trained a day in his life but if he did he would be unstoppable"
***** my problem is frieza's 4 months of training somehow equated to Goku/Vegeta's 12 years of training and fighting.
makes no sense. they should've made a film where frieza returned before goku achieved SSJ God and made it to where He would be somewhat on par with SSJ 3 Goku. That still would've been too big of a power boost in my opinion, but its still better than equating him to SSJ Blue
"my problem is frieza's 4 months of training somehow equated to Goku/Vegeta's 12 years of training and fighting."
You're not alone, but to be fair, Goku's base in the Buu Arc was probably close to Frieza's 100%, so 100% Frieza merely caught up to DBS's Base Goku in those four months. It's really Frieza's Golden multiplier that is so OP. It puts him from Base Goku to SSB Goku. That's such a massive increase compared to anything in the series so far. Probably anywhere from a x2000 to a x999,999,999 power increase (that's a joke, but not too far off; if SSB is 50x SSG and SSG is 1000x SS3 (800x) then that puts SSB at 40,000,000x)
LeAndre McCoy First of all, Frieza didn't train in a month, He had 4 months to do it. Second, how about Goku going from 8000 to 3000000 in just less than a week in frieza saga? That jump is really ludicrous considering Goku's Zenkai back in DB which is not even apparent. King Piccolo put him in a state where he's in near death but didn't even get a zenkai and only got it after drinking that water but only boosted him by a few times.
So basically if Frieza spent the day in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, he'd come out being the Fighting equivalent of a delete key.
Assuming Mr. Popo doesn't turn off the hyperbolic feature of the chamber
Have you not seen Frieza Gold form? He was much stronger then SSGSS Goku and Vegeta, and would have easily destroyed earth if he wasn't a fucking idiot. I am right before tournament of power in Super, but I would say he is pretty damn close to a delete key right now.
Not to mention he was literally able to Get Goku out of Super Sayain Blue with one Punch after he mastered his Gold form.
This made me laugh so hard
michaelduha
If he can't kill Beerus and Whis he isn't a delete button.
Absolutely. He ruined it both times. The Golden frieza thing is just ridiculous. So one more transformation and he is now as powerful as ss blue? Cmon..
This is about DBZ, you can't blame DBS Frieza because everyone there got a BS power up, Goku literally got more powerful that Vegito/Gogeta (DBZ) going all out after 5 Sayians put their hands on him and everyone was forced to catch up.
SSJB Just seems weak tbh. Has blue by itself ever beaten a Major villain?
@@DJYC21215 never
100% Frieza < SSJ < C 18 and 17 < Cell imperfect < C 16 < Cell semiperfect < MSSJ < Perfect Cell < SSJ2 < Buu < SSJ3 < Super Buu
DJYC21215 Frieza
I can buy a lot of DB's bullshit, but I will not buy the fact that manmade Android can overpower Frieza, who required an ancient Saiyan transformation of legend to beat, nor will I buy the fact that Frieza has never trained a day in his life and can suddenly become stronger than a God Ki enhanced version of the form that beat him after only 4 months of training with his underlings. I also won't buy the fact that a random bounty hunter is so strong that he could effortless beat SSB Vegeta (the manga explains this, but that never came up in the anime, and the manga is a separate canon from the anime as far as I know) and had to force SSB Goku to use Kaioken x10 to even match him WHILE said bounty hunter was holding back. I can't accurately say that Frieza ruined powerscaling, but it has been ruined since his defeat on Namek, and all he's done since was ruin it even further.
It is exactly why I have problems with dragon ball super
gotta agree with this.👍 you are the FIRST person to actually make sense
Really love your comment! Most of people doesnt care about that shit. Making of ssj god itself that cannot be measured is ridiculous! so why frieza and hit can beat goku-vegeta like you said. The idea of frieza can rival ssjb itself after training for 4months is thing that i cannot stand for.
I would agree with everything you said except in regards to Hit, they explain why he is able to keep up and surpass the SSBs decently enough.
Yeah, everything except your point about Hit. He was explained, in the anime, to already be over a thousand years old or something, and using a very rare ability.
Let's not forget the farmer at the beginning of DBZ with a power level of 5.
I donno Farmers are pretty strong... I think that if you include the shotgun he should have been like a 15... But I understand he was a 5 because he was scared shitless.
Guns don't have ki, aside from those Arm Cannons specifically designed to shoot ki.
ya then goku gets hurt by a bullet in dbs lol
ya then goku gets hurt by a bullet in dbs lol
Bullet to stronk!!!
Yes. Frieza ruined power scaling. If he had gone from 500k to 1M in his second form and 2M in his 3rd form, why on earth did he have to go to 120M in his final form? Wouldn't 4M have been the most outrageous power level ever seen at that point? Vegeta clearly seems to think that 1M power level is "impossible" when Frieza reveals his 2nd form. Surely a 4 times multiplier on that would be enough to make anybody want to wear their brown pants when they fight him. Then, when he got to earth, Frieza could have been around a 5M and the power levels could have scaled from there. Trunks and SSJ Vegeta would be roughly 8M. Android 17 and Super Namekian Piccolo would be around 10M. Imperfect Cell and Android 16 would be maybe 12.5 M. Semi-Perfect Cell would Spike to 25 M. Perfect Cell would be 50M. You get the picture. If they would have kept the power scaling even remotely linear then Perfect Cell would have only had to have been half as strong as 100% Frieza and could have been just as menacing a threat.
It was just a plot device to make it seem more epic that he's using only 1% of his power in his final form and that goku did a 50x kamehameha
This was actually talked about a long time ago when it came to frieza's power level. on various threads and sites there was a debate whether or not the manga fucked up somewhere with the power levels and basically added an extra zero accidenty. Frieza final form shouldve been around 4mil. at 100% he shouldve been around 10-12m. ssj goku was around 12-15m. around andriod saga ppl were supposed to be in low 20m. cell 1st form would be maybe twice as strong as ssj during frieza arc making him around high 20m. every other transformation would be no more than 2-3x until perfect cell. we shoulnt have even gotten close to 100mil until gohan ssj2..Power scaling wouldnt get fucked up until ssj3, but you still have 50x and 400x multipliers for the ssj forms so its all screwed up tbh. just take of the extra zeros from the multipliers and it would be manageable. None of the ssj power ups make much sense, because with a ssj2 multiplier alone, you should have no problem destroying a solar system just with a small powerup. It mightve been a mistake in the manga and when someone recognized it, it was too late to change it and they were like fuck it.
@@TheWitch297 I recall that being the original way me and other fans would discuss it thinking back
@Connman 8d Youre right all except that if imperfect cell was at 25M power SSJ Vegeta with hyperbolic chamber training should be about 30-35 M since it was obvious that he was far superior so that much of a power difference makes sense. And with Goku training for almost a week in the time chamber, along with mastering SSJ, meant his power level was probably around 50 M. Goku also struggled very much while fighting about 50% of Cell's power making Perfect Cell be around 100 M in power. From there it would not be that hard to imagine SSJ2 boosted Gohan's power level to around 150M (it's agreed that Gohan had equal power to Goku in normal form and super saiyan at this point, and SSJ2 is supposed to be a world of difference from SSJ1) and then have Cell would probably have like 175-200 M when he resurrected himself after exploding. So I think power scaling gets a bit wack right at the end of Cell saga, especially when Cell comes back. Also yes I probably exaggerated these power levels a bit but that's just to illustrate my point better.
@@jordansedlacek5627 You didnt exaggerate the power levels at all. Toriyama and the manga already did that. Toriyama has everyone in the low billions by the end of cell saga, but my opinion was that the manga added extra zeros where they shouldnt have been and just ran with it. friezas final form shouldve been 30-40% before going 100%, making the power scaling more manageable. everyone should be in low teens by the end of frieza. and by the end of cell saga I would agree on your power levels. Frieza saga did fuck up power scaling, making ppl in the mid trillions by the time of GT which makes no sense at all. roshi was already a planet buster so what would that make a ssj? now apply that logic to say a gogeta or a buu? tto be fair to toriyama though, he did make buu into a dimension buster, but nothing really scales correctly. a simple ki blast from buu should wipe out a solar system.
Frieza was a stupidly overpowered villain, but the Frieza saga was still good.
LordMalice6d9 Oh yes. Frieza is by far my favorite. Everything on Namek was ten times better than the rest of the series imo. After Frieza it started to drag.
Because the point of him was that he was OP before. But in Super it's dumb that he just naturally has no problem becoming godly. ESPECIALLY when that means that even Imperfect Cell wasted all of that time sucking people off when he could've just trained for a bit and let his Frieza cells make him crush SS3 level.
I know I’m LATE but they were planning to end the show then and there he was show stopping powerful 💥
Like zarbon, he should have only had two forms. Second form was strong enough. Bringing in Piccolo and giving him a BS. power up just to keep up with frieza was just pure BS. They could have kept it like Saiyan Saga. Where Vegeta was stronger than a whole group of people. But yet he took on everyone. at the same time. For a bit second form Frieza was fighting everyone. at the same time. Piccolo and Goku could have come in as well. in a similar fashion. distracting him while Goku launches a Spirit Bomb. Goku succeeds everyone goes home. at a million. frieza was strong. Yet beatable. Once they fused Piccolo and nail. everything just went all over the place. he could have still fused with nail for a more reasonable power level. like 200000 even 500000. But the numbers just got too stupid. Stupidly High numbers leads to even more stupidly High numbers and on and on and on.. snowballing a series into Oblivion (notice the Feats matching the power level. It was pretty accurate till. Piccolo v. frieza ) good characters make a good franchise. when a franchise full of like.. 20+ good characters becomes a franchise with two. because of numbers? It's time to start rethinking those numbers. They should have planned this better before implementing those stupid High numbers. notice: everything after Piccolo's Fusion Is just pointless huge jumps.. And it went on and on and on. and still goes on in super. Some say Frieza second form started it. If that's true, it should have only been like a 25% boost. Vegeta's sudden boost was also stupid. He goes from fighting the ginyu's to. fighting equally with frieza? At least with Goku he had Kaioken. so that's.. a little more. sense worthy. Vegeta and Piccolo though? pointless boosts Just to match frieza? a Franchise killer if you ask me. me.
if it was the finale arc in the show, then it would have been an amazing one indeed, a great ending all the over the top power levels and boots would have been okay as this is the end game so the power ups was okay. Goku the lone Super sayian who became a legend to defeat the tyrant. would have been a great ending.
Remember when the base Dragonball show was about martial artists doing over the top martial artist stuff in the 1-400 power level range? That's when the show was actually good. The very moment Dragonball Z started it all went to shit because Raditz. Back in Dragonball, an overwhelmingly more powerful opponent would be at best 20 power levels above you. Like say Master Roshi was 100 and Goku was 90. Well Roshi would be favored to win 90% of the time. Goku would need to push himself and take risk to actually land decisive blows. That's because even if Roshi is only 10% tougher, faster and stronger than Goku, having that edge in a martial artist duel is EVERYTHING.
At the start of Dragonball Z(Or perhaps the end of Classic Dragonball depending on how you want to look at it), Piccolo can give Goku a lot of trouble in a duel. Googling some numbers, Goku is 334 and Piccolo 322. This means the Goku's edge on Piccolo is in the rough ballpark of 2-3%. This would likely result in a prolonged duel of attrition wherein Goku is favored to emerge victorious probably 60-75% of the time.
And then comes Raditz, at his ridiculous 1200 power level, meaning he roughly 4 times faster, stronger and tougher than both of them. Just let that sink in for a moment. Just imagine trying to defeat someone who literally moves 4 times faster that you do, hits you 4 times harder than your hardest punch and can take 4 times more punishment before falling over. There's now way Piccolo and Goku are winning this fairly in a million year, so they have to make up some BS about Piccolo being able to charge up a move for 5 minutes that can somehow one shot the enemy AND sacrifice the lead character (Who can somehow maintain an opponent far beyond his reach immobilized long enough for Piccolo to unleash the God Beam.
You see? Thanks to the very first ridiculous power scaling introduced in DBZ, we already had to use some BS impossible strategy to overcome the odds. And then, because said power scaling will go on exponentially, so does the BS power leveling of our cast using impossible training regiments, transformations and fusions.
I mean FFS Krillen and the rest of the human cast all achieved a power level near or above Raditz within a single year of training. These are expert martial artists who have been training all their life to achieve a measly 200-300 power level. How can one year of non magical/gravity enhanced training make them 4-5 times better at fighting, when they were all presumably at the peak of human potential already? The answer is : Power levels are Bullshit.
not many in the US saw the original DB. But in latinamerica DB the original Was EVERYWHERE. Z ruined dragon ball.
LiwenDiamond Its fun bullshit though .It got you doing math didn't it.
LiwenDiamond sounds like dark souls 101
the power scalling nightmare started way before Z. it started (a little bit) when goku picked up a car in the first episode. then it got worse when roshi blew up a mountain. (probably on par with the tzar bomb) and even worse when goki accomplished moving a mountain bassed on a joke by roshi then it totally went off the rails when roshi blew up the moon and when merc tow was introduced. then tien blows a hole in the ground and roshi says he was wrong to even compare the kahmehameha wave with the tribeam the tribeam is way more powerfull (even though if it was on par with roshi's moon destroying beam the earth would be pretty much wrecked.) then piccolo happend and the power scalling again lost its shit. goku should have been a planet buster by the end of dagonball and probabbly yamcha and krillen too (bassed on the moon destroying thing) unless we assume that roshi is way more powerfull than everyone else despite much pointing to the contrary, ie king picolo defeating roshi) goku was probably a "planet buster" in the sense he should have been able to make a planet uninhabitable by his fight with roshi) (bassed on the fact that destroying the earth is only 3 times harder than destroying the moon) the series is constantly retconned because of bs new ideas added to it like zenkai or akira forgeting that sayans have tails or that launch is was a thing. realistically if the death ball that destroyed earth in the bu saga was ONLY 10 times more than what would take to destroy earth than it was maximally as powerful as friza's atack against the sayans and at best 30 times more powerful than the beam roshi used to take out the moon in dragonball. ie not impressive anymore.
Most of this argument is based on Roshi's ability to destroy the Moon in a single attack, but you must also remember that the ordinary humans were able to rebuilt the Moon in only a few years. So what I'm getting from this is that Akira has NO CONCEPT of just how big the Moon is and how much power and resources one would need to destroy/rebuild it. So for the sake of keeping the show grounded in something somewhat reminiscent of logic and consistency, I decided that this Earth's version of the Moon is both really really really small and orbiting extremely close to the actual planet. In essence, it's not that much bigger than the mountain Roshi blew up with another one of his Kamehameha (Was the mountain really huge? I can't remember.)
Anyway, it's a world where humans coexist with dinosaurs and have magical capsules that you can hold in your hand, yet can contain entire houses. So why not have a very small moon orbiting really close to the surface? It's clearly not our Earth. And given the human's tech level, it becomes believable that they could have the ability to rebuilt such a small moon in only a few years. The real question is how Roshi was able to evade punishment for blowing up the Moon in the first place :D
I just miss the days when Dragon Ball was more about fighting style, skill, and outsmarting the opponents rather than all of the "This isn't even my final form" BS.
I love the ozaru form. it was from back then too.
@@dragom2009 What's good about that form is it's already established in-universe that it's a powerful form and it even needs specific condition to transform into it, not some pull it out of your ass deus ex machina final form bullshit whenever a main character gets badly beaten.
Treyworld not always about skill more about power and plot
AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ~ three weeks later ~ AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Treyworld Its a fucking cartoon stop bitching about it and grow up
people don't seem to understand the DBS formula.
1. are they the current villain?
2. they will be stronger than the sayain's, until they are not.
That's been the formula for Z as well, and Dragonball as well, except instead of Saiyans it was Goku alone.
OmegaPyron I guess I assumed beerus would be more of a character/plot point then a thing that just sits there and does nothing
I thought the Dragonball formula was:
1) this is the strongest character in the universe
2) not anymore, because Goku
well it's still goku alone, pretty much. vegeta is just a measuring stick.
"oh my god, that guy beat vegeta! he's so stronk and is blue and is saiyan like the other person we have our hopes pinned on! this is dangerous because vegeta is like almost as stronk as goku because they are gods and their hair is blue. can goku, the guy of very stronks, but not many stronks more than vegeta, beat the villan? yes."
always.
Goku still hasn't surpassed Beerus since 2012.
"How big is your power level? Mine is pretty big"
amazing reference
STOP ASKING THAT! NOBODY CARES ANYMORE!
Mine.....is MAXIMUM!!
i loved brolys power level comment, gotta watch that again next
hennie Kru and 5 episodes later we find out someone has MAXIMUM x10
To be fair for Frieza, he was meant to be *the strongest in the universe.* So his power was understandable. What fucked it up was continuing the story beyond that.
DeeperHavoc Tien was supposed to be the strongest human. Piccolo was supposed to be the strongest.
And those two are earthlings, so what is your point? Before Goku's saiyan heritage was discovered, he was basically the strongest person on Earth, rivaled only by Piccolo.
I actually agree with this point. It makes sense that someone who OWNS the majority of the known universe would have a ridiculous power level to match. He needs that strength, or why else would he be able to control a fight-happy universe with an iron fist?
The real problem isn't that Frieza was too strong- it's that the main characters fought him too early. More build-up with a longer road to actually reach Frieza would have made the power-scaling much more believable, and probably could have kept more characters relevant.
I think Toriyama did fine with the enemies that follow Frieza - Cell and the Androids ARE Frieza, as well as Goku, Vegeta, etc. They owes their enormous power levels to every other character in the show. Majin Buu is meant to literally be on par with Gods, as his rebirth scares the shit out of God Himself. Had Majin Buu woken up while Frieza still ruled the universe, Frieza, the most powerful entity in the universe, would have crumbled before his coming. So the elevation makes sense. I think people are just upset about poor Krillin.
tl;dr Frieza WAS the strongest in the universe - Cell is Just Frieza Again, Majin Buu is a deity
I think Toriyama did fine with the enemies that follow Frieza - Cell and the Androids ARE Frieza, as well as Goku, Vegeta, etc. They owes their enormous power levels to every other character in the show. Majin Buu is meant to literally be on par with Gods, as his rebirth scares the shit out of God Himself. Had Majin Buu woken up while Frieza still ruled the universe, Frieza, the most powerful entity in the universe, would have crumbled before his coming. So the elevation makes sense. I think people are just upset about poor Krillin.
tl;dr Frieza WAS the strongest in the universe - Cell is Just Frieza Again, Majin Buu is a deity
you never see Vegeta's hair blowing in the wind anymore. I miss that.
ting280 he got himself some hairgel
More like he got himself some lazy animators.
Animation gotten lazy, writing was always lazy.
It doesn't blow anymore because he uses earth hair products now. lol
The Animation was stupid for this fight it was way too cartoony (Ironic right)
They should have kept the numbers low. Then they could have carried the power levels throughout the series and make them more relevant. They kept doing 10x this 50x this 100x this it just made the numbers go way beyond comprehension. I really liked the power level aspect of the story and when I was young I really wanted to know all the other villain's power levels.
from 9001 to 9002
Alex CyaniDe
I heard Toriyama tried to retcon Frieza's power level to be 12 million.
I completely agree. Though power levels were kinda shown to be meaningless as the z fighters could conceal and raise their power which would manipulate scouters.
The only reason power levels were introduced was because frieza and his men weren’t able to sense power so they were added with the scouters to allow them to track the Z fighters and to give frieza a way to know about the dragon balls sense most characters now can sense power excluding god ki and scouters have completely vanished their is no way to for the characters to know exact power levels so the only way to know exact power levels is with guides and other external sources so I don’t understand why people are so concerned with something the show has long forgotten about just watch and enjoy the show or don’t you don’t need to complain about a tiny detail like power levels
Power levels were added to the series with the purpose of making them unreliable and irrelevant. The whole point was to show just how meaningless they were. When the villains measure power levels, they underestimate the heroes. Pushing beyond limits isn't really quantifiable, so when they try to quantify it they lose.
No the inclusion of God forms killed power scaling. Once you introduce Gods, and then just have random guys surpass with no effort. Broly, Toppo, and Jiren
Justin Thomas always thought they should have just given a reason. Top po has been training with his god, so he's got power on that scale. How hard would it have been to justify it somehow?
👏👏👏 caulifla kale and kefla make me want to vomit
@@samsstuff743 I remember laughing hysterically when Goku was being pushed through his *Super Saiyan God forms* against two regular Super Saiyans. Kale, Caulifla (even with berserker mode) and Kefla shouldn't have ever been stronger than Gohan (after training for the Tournament). The U6 Saiyans were too overpowered.
Yeah, it always confused me when people used straight-up raw power-scaling to say that Goku is universal or multiversal in scale. Does this mean that the assassin Hit is multiversal, for absolutely no reason? Or is Goku just so un-durable that he can be killed by someone much weaker than him? So many questions...
Jirens entire concept is that he is a mortal who trained to surpass the GoDs...
Did the creators' ruin power scaling? Yes.
Dragon Ball Super is the real garbage and obliterates the nice things in Dragon Ball!
Akira Toyama should be killed before Buu saga and stay the story the way it was...
He just messed up with Dragon Ball Super Bias and the fans eat that shiit!
💯
Dragon ball should have ended after Namek. You can't top what happened in the Frieza Saga.
- The whole thing about chasing the dragon balls with vegeta, the earthlings and Frieza
- Vegetas death and it's emotional importance towards the fight between Goku and Frieza, since Vegeta revealed to Goku that Frieza killed their race
- Goku fullfilling the ULTIMATE legendary prophecy by becoming a Super Saiyan due to seeing his best friend Krillin die
- The most intense fight resulting in the explosion OF THE WHOLE GODDAMN MOTHERFUCKING PLANET
Apart from your arguments about power scaling and how everybody except Goku became irrelevant due to the HUGE increase in power when Goku became Super Saiyan, to me, everything after the Frieza Saga didn't have the same dramatic impact, too. After Namek everybody became randomly stronger at random events to be able to have some screentime fighting some random villains who randomly kicked everybodys ass AGAIN after they transformed and increased their power by a random multiplier. NOTHING made sense after Namek power scaling wise.
Black Goku arc >>>>> Frieza Arc
No, it just tried to fit in with the logic that the Frieza Arc had. Once they went to Namek, the pl's went out of control in general. You are right if you are talking about non-saiyan characters, because they shouldn't be able to improve much since like Dragonball, and even then they were too fast. Tien holding off Semi Perfect Cell was the peak of stupidity. That and weighted Pikkon beating SP Cell but losing to Base Goku, which was actually within a month or so after the Cell Games according to the timeline.
"Black Goku arc >>>>> Frieza Arc"
.............Were we watching the same series?
I dunno the hercule and buu arc was great.
Fully agree.
After the Frieza Arc , Goku shouldn't be able to turn into SSJ again, making it far more epic and legendary.
And after that they could've continued with his base 3milion power level which seems reseaonable, or even make him weaker with his heart virus so the Androids are a threat to him (making Vegeta and Picollo also relevant). That the androids were far stronger than Frieza was a stupid idea in the first place.
We need a time machine to Toriyama!
agree, androids being far stronger than frieza simply made 0 sense
Dragonball Z should have ended with the Namek Saga, with Frieza being the penultimate villain.
He's pretty much the reason any of the events in Dragonball Z happen at that point because he feared Super Saiyans and destroyed their whole race. Because of this, Vegeta and Nappa go to Earth to find the Dragonballs to gain immortality, and the Z fighters are forced to go to Namek to revive their comrades. Through these mens, Vegeta's character was able to have a real arc and made him into a truly sympathetic anti-hero by the end. Vegeta's hatred of Freiza for killing his whole race (whether deserved or not) touches Goku to some extent as he also understands that everything he truly *IS* was destroyed. Freiza forces the kind hearted Saiyan into a corner and mistakenly creates the Super Saiyan he had feared all this time.
The Legendary Super Saiyan was born of Frieza's own paranoia and ruthlessness, and Goku avenges the entire Saiyan race in one final battle. Nothing else in Dragonball Z ever reaches this level of writing or tension and it's where the story should have ended. Save the android stuff for a Trunks movie or something, and leave Cell out of it.
I agree with the above post, kinda wish they remade the sayian/frieza arc with current animation technology and maybe some more details/easter eggs... I'd love to rewatch all that in hd
That was the original intent but the studio forced Toriyama to continue the series anyway.
Dbz's system is completely flawed in my opinion. The main reason being is that everything is about power and transformations, there's too much of it. Anyone question how the hell can Goku or Vegeta or literally anyone else in the main cast not accidentally destroy earth? the solar system, or the Galaxy? remember that Vegeta is able to destroy earth at 18,000+ and piccolo destroyed the moon at even less that? in the Ginyu arc Goku caused a shockwave by flexing and blocked ki blasts by yelling. Considering most of the cast are thousands of not millions of times stronger than that. notice how they fight at full power on earth and other places without destroying anything. everything is still the same as early DBZ. the power makes no sense when you go above and beyond the moment the series begins.
Dapperblook Animations Tru but powerlevels tht are already given r the only reliable ones as they are very hard to scale seeing as kid Goku goes from wall level to moon level when going from 10 to like 100, and also how kid Goku only has a power level of 10 in the begining dbz. Tht is only double tht of a farmer with a shotgun. Tht makes no sense whatsoever. Another example is Gohan SSJ2 when his power is cut in half against cell does tht mean he was only as strong as ssj1. No he's not. unless they are given by Akira they aren't realiable even then multipliers are even convoluted as powerlevels seem to be exponential so characters could be getting alot more stronger then we think
that is explained on multiple occasions +dapperblook the best example appears in the talsorian dbz rpg book one "saiyan saga" download the pdf! it's fun!
it's all about control. 1st proof of this i recall is goku lifting water out of a glass in the hospital
ITz EpiccA it's never really that clear.
To Z Thanks! I'll check it out.
There's also a damage chart ranging from car (10) to moon about 1200 I believe to standard planet over 10000. I'm making my own game based on this chart and several other sources including the marvel universe rpg system. My damage chart will scale galactic levels
I think the power scaling was ruined in Dragon Ball when Master Roshi blew up the moon with a Kamehameha
If they didn't do that, at this point in the series the characters would probably be only sun level. (don't give me math b.s., I mean from a narrative perspective.) Being planet level makes it weird when they shoot ki blasts with the intent to kill another planet level opponent, and then they miss, and the planet is still there. (Nit pick, I know. I don't really care but it is something to think about.)
Which would probably be a good thing.
they aren't always shooting planet busting ki blasts at each other though. You can tell when they are about to when ALL of the characters take notice for either the risky move or the sheer strength they're producing in that moment.
Roshi blowing up the moon was an isolated thing. You could easily write that off as a plot hole. Making an entire arc every characters power level jumps at absurd proportions is where the power scaling was ruined, not one fucking scene.
Baki Written off as a plot hole, that doesn't make it better it makes it worse.
I read comments of people saying Dragon Ball was suppose to be a comedy, but turned serious so of course you are going to have wacky things as a result
I liked Freezer, but with this 'golden' transformation, totally irrational and disrespectful, they managed to make me hate him.
So...LONG LIFE TO CELL.
Frieza was supposed to be the final enemy. Of Course he was over powered. Toriyama was getting bored. Jump wouldn't let him leave (read as dumped a truck of money on him). Then he tried again with Cell and Jump once again wouldn't let him walk. That's why the Buu arc was even further over the top. Turning people to candy, fusion dance, magic earring of fusion... it was Toriyamas' way of saying Enough.
Sean Russell the Cell saga was directly after the Frezia saga, how did he "try again" at the Cell saga? It's a shit anime, that's why it's a shit anime.
But the Buu saga is the best. I love the dynamic and banter around the world tournament.
Which just so happens to have nothing to do with Buu. Everything about the Buu saga gets worse once it actually gets going.
Technically, I'd say it's Frezia Saga, Android Saga, then it goes to Cell Saga were Android Saga kinda serves as an transition point that lasts longer, and has more of an standing impact, than the transition point between Cell Saga and Buu saga with Gohan and his dealing with an "post-world threat" life in which he's gotta be an "normal" person. However, Android Saga melds into Cell Saga about a little after Trunks arrives, which I believe Trunks going into the past created the time paradox in which the Androids he went back to face weren't exactly the ones that he was sent back for, but at the same time they kind of were. They looked like them, but they seemed different on top of Cell coming into the picture earlier than intended because of Goku, though it has been years so I'm likely off. But yeah, I think people overlook Android Saga because it doesn't really last long. You have Dr Gerro (sp?) and his assistant, or whatever he was to him, who are androids that they go against. Then, come to find out, there's a place in which the real android threat laid, and that I believe Dr. Gerro facing them like he did was more or less seeing his information himself, sending whatever last minute data off to further complete the androids with the latest possible information before being activated.
buu saga feels 100% toriyama, the rest of dbz doesn't
I think Scouters ruined it.
The moment they started quantifying their power it was destined to go haywire, because something always ends up looking off.
It's like what they did with midichlorians, Jedi, and the Force.
Had they never put a number to the power level, there would have been plenty of opportunity to bring the Z Warriors into the mix through things like secret techniques, out thinking the opponent, or banding together.
Instead you've got math saying nope.
true….krillin could scare piccolo jr after 3 years of training when before tambourine kills him easily...sure krillin couldn't out fight piccolo jr but a blast from his wave could hurt him same for goku if they dont dodge ..the show was about martial arts and skill speed techniques realistic stamina smarts tricks rather than power levels ..once you get to raditz its like how can goku even hold him with the full nelson?..hes way weaker..and how can piccolo charge an attack to be that powerful?..wtf...its weird
@@razkable And now we've got the new Broly movie, which to me looks like two rainbows fighting each other. Now, with all these colourful lights it's a Party Ball, not a Dragon Ball to me...
However midichlorians didn't change that much:
1. Midichlorians measure potential (how much attuned to the Force are you not how strong you are) *not power*
2. We only got 1 official midichlorian count and it's Anakin's "over 20000" and we know that Yoda's midichlorian count (potential) is lower. We also know that Vader lost half of his potential on Mustafar (stated by George Lucas) so it explains why he was weaker than Emperor despite having potential to be about twice as powerful as him (George Lucas stated that Vader is around 8/10 of Emperor in Return of the Jedi) and why Luke could overcome him.
So powerscaling in Star Wars was not affected by midichlorians since Jedi and Sith don't use them to measure power but potential (Force Attunment) and because characters with lower midichlorian count can overcome characters with higher midichlorian count with enough traning and skill.
Also person with higher midichlorian count does not become immune to attacks of someone with lower midichlorian count unlike in Dragon Ball where when your power level is higher you can just walk through attacks of weaker people like nothing (making weaker people completly useless, it doesn't matter if they use clever tactics and use openings in opponents defences, they can just tank all attacks because they are *so* strong).
Karson Kammerzell perfect
I mean numbers don't have to ruin the show if they are somewhat reasonable. I think kaio Ken is what starts to ruin it. strict multiplyers isnt a good idea especially when it is widely available
It's interesting that Vegeta was blowing up planets before he arrived to earth, and then in the BUU arc viliians are destroying mountains. It doesn't make sense lol.
I think he only destroyed planets in filler episodes, so it's not cannon.
Explosive power compared to controlled power. When attacks meant to hit a fighter hit the earth, they tend to explode on impact, instead of piercing straight through the planet. When they want to destroy the planet they just concentrate the attack to penetrate the core. A good example of the explosive power not being explosive after the character gets stronger is SSG goku, his punches could destroy the universe because he cant control the newfound power, later on he is WAY stronger and isnt a threat to his environment, its control.
A power level of 18,000 is way to weak to blow up a planet. I'm pretty sure Ginyu couldn't even do that himself.
@@kaichen3830 Roshi blew up the moon at like, 250 power. So did Piccolo.
Vegeta blew up a planet with his ring on his way to earth to fight Goku the first time.
Powerlevels ruined power scaling.
yes and no. numbers just don't work outside of dbz games.
SaiyanZero so true mate
SaiyanZero POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT!- Vegeta dbza
I think the nature of the series ruined power scaling. Each new villain has to top the last one so eventually it will become a mess.
Do you have rabbit ears underneath that hat? Cmon be honest😏
I think power levels should be revised to make them more relevant on a scale of the whole series.
I miss the time when "over 9000" actually seemed like a lot.
fleiteh and it is bullshit, it e
was 8000 but the fucking dub messed up everything
supersplash2002 does it really matter 8000 or 9000 nappa and vegeta still got rekt
15M is still a massive jump from 400. Frankly Nappa and Vegeta should have been halved or more. If Raditz as at 1500 then Vegeta should have been at say 8000. Then Goku could come in at 4000 and kick Nappa's butt. Kiaoken would still be a valid technique because Goku is still at half Vegeta's power and the Oozaru form would be at 80k. So Goku would still be on the ropes. Captain Ginyu could comfortably stay where he was and be a threat but we bring Frieza down to 150K in his first form. Still a huge hill to climb for the Z fighters but no need for insane power jumps. Plus Tien and Yamacha could remain relevant if they get in the 10K+ range. Then we make form 4 Frieza just 1M and SSJ Goku 1.1M and there we go. Everyone is still fairly relevant and there is room for them to catch back up fairly quickly. Then Cell, Buu and so on don't need to be in the billions to be a threat and the humans could reasonably hope to be a help not a hinderance. In fact we could make the conditions for SSJ transformation rather difficult to obtain, something even Goku would struggle with after getting it. Then while it could be a trump card he could pull out in desperation it isn't something that becomes the focus of the series.
Drakkar This is an invented story. The truth is that some reliable sources made it 10 times smaller than the original, and more reliable sources corrected it. You can pretty much see how it is on the guides.
The biggest fuck up in DBZ is that Akira Toriyama didn't state rules of power levels that say you have to be within a certain percentage of the other guy to beat, or even hurt them. They could have worked a lot better than they do in DBZ.
Isn't this just DBZ in a nutshell? "this isn't even my final form!"
Wait until the next movie.
Frieza stops, then holds out his hand. "Ban... kai."
plottwist 2018
That's my line..
PimpnCereal Goku smiles and gently says ""Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru"
@@cerealkiller5599 NANI
I think the Dragon Ball Z storyline kinda put most of the original Dragon Ball characters to the point of being worthless and thus is important to see the original Dragon Ball series to see them in their best character arcs.
Tien and Chozuu even Yamcha get their best story arcs only in the original Dragon Ball series.
Would have preferred them over Vegeta in DBZ? No one would.
who says just because there's a new characters all the old ones have to turn irrelevant?
actually i would have preferred piccolo over vegeta. specially because the way it turned out it wasted both piccolo AND vegeta as characters. vegeta should have stayed rogue and piccolo should be goku's right hand instead. tame vegeta is absolute garbage. vegeta in super is even more of a joke than yamcha.
Just rewatched the original Dragon Ball and Toriyama wasted a ton of potential with all kinds of characters, Tenshinhan is one of my favorites, this guy was able to master every technique, his 3rd eye was a paralell to Goku's tail and reminiscent for some godlike powers but it got irrelevant at the end of the series and Goku lost his tail anyway, srsly Toriyama..
@@usedtobereign
Raditz was just a wasted potential more than them
Plot twist: power levels are logarithmic
that would make a lot of sense.
in the end, master roshi was able to destroy the moon with the first kamehameha, and he was kinda decomposing already.
That would explain a lot
NERD!!!
They probably are, actually. It even makes sense from a physics perspective 😂 SSB kaio-ken would, from a maths perspective be much much stronger than, say, Super Saiyan Rosé 2(SSBx10 vs SSRx2). But, for example, throwing a punch at lightspeed technically would take actually infinite energy. So, even if you'd managed to actually gain tens of times the energy of your opponent, you're still not going to be able to hit them much harder.
It was ruined as soon as Goku's base became ssjg and then how ssb kaoiken x 10 Goku somehow is weaker than Beerus. Then how Trunks as a ssj2 could fight along side ssb's vs black/zamasu and it was utterly destroyed in ep 66-67 of Super.
Hamza Adrees I think the whole thing with Beerus is that he is supposed to be most powerful being of his universe. But it is confusing and strange
the truth is...this show really confusing and dont have good explanation compare to Z. Many plot holes and bullshit. You cannot take this show with common sense..like they want us to just sit back and relax. just enjoying the show. lol
really sighhh...
as a super saiyan god beerus fought goku using 10% of his power as a SSB with a multiplier of 50 to goku's power thats still less than 20% with the kaioken x10 thats a multiplier of 500 that is still not 100% of beerus's power not to even mention his power to destruct any thing that exists in the universe just by pointing
Trunks received the training Gohan got from supreme kai and is basically mystic and Trunks is an acended super saiyan 2 powered by rage and he used a spirit bomb sword on black/zamasu(only plot hole here is using spirit bomb as a super saiyan) trunks still didn't kill zamasu btw.
Uh, what? Are you high? Any 10% multiplied by 10 is 100%. That's how percentages work. How can you say 10% * 50 is less than 20%?
Super has plotholes, so did Z, Supers plotholes are just worse, accept it. Doesn't mean you can't enjoy the show but be realistic, Z was better, Super has some awesome ideas but screws up here and there.
Hamza Adrees its called plot convenience
Honestly Mike.. I think Gravity Training in general was a plot hole and shouldn't have been as strenuous as it was for Goku OR boosted him as much as it did. Case in point... When Goku had a power level of 10 he was able to lift a car, which likely weighed 1000-2000 pounds and toss it and by the end of Dragon Ball he was able to topple over a GIANT piccolo who was as big as a skyscraper.
Then at the start of Z we see Goku "Fetching fire wood" for Chi Chi which required him to punch over a big ass redwood tree and lift it over his head to drag it home which would have given him extra resistance. Redwoods range 50,000 pounds to 4,000,000 pounds. Lets say Lowballed Goku is 180 pounds and Highballed he's 250 which is possible since he's so muscular. That's a range of 1,800-2,500 pounds he'd weigh on King Kai's planet. NO SWEAT, he was lifting that as a child with a power level more than 40x lower right? Shirt weighs 30, boots weigh 100, wrist bands weigh 10 So that's an additional 140 pounds making his total weight on King Kai's planet 3,200 -3,900. That's a little bit heavier right? That's nothing compared to the towering Piccolo OR the giant Redwoods he was hauling around.
What makes this even more baffling is that the gravity was going to disperse the weight across his entire body making that nearly 2 ton weight easier to manage. It literally doesn't make sense that Goku had issues standing up or training on King Kai's planet... at all. It should have been fairly easy for a guy like him.
So, in conclusion, if you ask me, the power scaling was fucked up from the very start and it REALLY became skewed when Master Roshi blew up the moon. Power creep just got worse and worse as time went on and by the Buu Saga it actually felt like everyone had gotten weaker because the feats were reduced dramatically.
I've been saying this for years, there's no way you can reasonably calculate power levels and power boosts since Toriyama has been so massively inconsistent throughout the entirety of Z. It's even worse now in Super, just no point in doing that anymore, the characters are as strong as the plot requires them to be. Every semblance of logic has been thrown out the window the moment Goku arrived on King Kai's planet.
Thank you! I've been annoyed for ages at how tiny the gravity multipliers are. You'd think they'd at least be in the thousands by the Buu Arc, it'd be less ridiculous than half the other power scaling tools in this series...
millgiass keep in mind even Mr satan can lift up a car
few problems with that. just because he can lift 2000 pounds doesn't mean he can do all his high speed stuff at that weight. extra gravity is way worse then holding that weight. 5 times gravity would kill a human because blood would be too heavy to reach the brain so it would traumatize the whole system
also if it were in the thousands you would be getting into the "why aren't their blackholes yet" territory
Couldn't this be due to the fact that Akira wanted the series to end after the Frieza Saga?
That is a myth, and is not true.
@@samsstuff743 Is that really true?
@@hatboi124 yes ist is stated in a disenshu
That's false bro
I don't think he wanted it to end by Frieza so much as he wanted Frieza to be the strongest villain in the universe but I do think messed up his own plot device and probably working under a schedule made a big mistake we see this in modern film making all the time you rush through a project you don't notice the issue until it has settled and you go crap.
Frieza being at the level of a super saiyan god in just 4 months after years of being inactive is the main reason why I stopped watching dbz super, it just doesnt make sense
Flisk Flask LOL did you not watch DBZ? Most of it didn’t make sense either but you just remember it through nostalgia glasses.
Yeah because goku’s two zenkais in between his fight with Frieza weren’t crazy
I agree. Frieza really ruined it for me they should’ve left him bringing back kid buu and saying he’s now super strong would’ve been better
Piotr dude DBZ is a lot better than super lol and it’s fact that you can’t argue with
Flisk Flask dude u do realize that frieza catching up to Goku had it's repercussions such as at the end of Goku and frieza's battle he couldn't retain his golden form.
I figured that the whole point of _"Power Levels"_ was that they were Bullshit. Literally ANY Character who relies on Power Levels as a reliable measurement is always defeated due to underestimating their opponent. Raditz is the first in a long line of dead men who thought that Power Levels would decide a fight, and Every. Single. Time they are proven wrong.
The hype behind Power Levels in DBZ is just that... Hype. It's non-sense, a facade, a flawed measuring stick by literally EVERY example. Radits, Napa, Qui, Dadoria, Zarbon, and Fucking Frieza! Every Single One of them ended up dead because their assumptions of power levels was a significant factor that leads to their defeat.
To quote Vageta in DBZ Abridged *"Power Levels are Bullshit"*
But the problem is every fight the guy who actually had the higher power level won. It wasn't through technique or other factors, they just hid their true power levels. Goku only beat Frieza when he achieved Super Saiyan and obtained a higher power level than Frieza.
They lost because the scouters couldn't give them the right number and were just weaker, not because the concept of "power levels" are bullshit. Power levels decide everything in this series.
That's just the fanbase meme for it.
It's true... i remember when raditz relied on power level against a earthling warrior with a power level of 5 and was shot dead.
+BlankPicketSign That makes sense except it doesn't. Those who relied on the scouters were only able to measure current power level without an understanding of one's full potential or accounting for the possibility that their power is intentionally being suppressed, however for example when Ginyu read Goku's power with the scouter after he'd boosted up to maximum he was seeing the real deal...Goku's true power read accurately by the scouter. This same theme is present with Frieza as well who not only suppresses his power...but several different forms.
Power levels successfully decided the victor of every single fight in the Namek arc. Vegeta's at 24,000 was greater than Cui's. Vegeta surpasses Dodoria and killed him. Vegeta's power was greater than Zarbon's until Zarbon showed Vegeta his non suppressed power and overwhelmed him. Vegeta gained a dramatic strength boost while recovering from his injuries making his power much greater than Zarbon's. Even the combined strength of Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan wasn't sufficient to overcome Recoome.
The entire Ginyu Force's power (most of them sitting at about 40,000.) was much lower than Goku's who Captain Ginyu estimated to be at 60,000 or so. Little did he know Goku's true power was over 180,000 which was far greater than Ginyu's at 120,000.
Power has been determining the victor since Mercenary Tao in Dragon ball. Super changed that.
Well said, well said.
Yeah...when you think that Frieza can casually bust an entire planet and all it's warriors with a single finger in his most suppressed form...and his full power is hundreds of times stronger than that, the threat to blow up a planet seems pretty irrelevant. Shit, he could probably obliterate that side of the galaxy even then. Now with villains hundreds of times stronger than THAT....it doesn't work. You'd think even their powerups alone would vaporize the Earth and probably the whole solar system with it.
most villians after weren't out to destroy planets though. Androids just went on a genocidal conquest and had fun doing it, Cell threatened to destroy the world if you couldn't be him in his Tournament. Buu was emotionally hurt and split into a being who just wanted to eat. It wasn't until Kid Buu did it want to destroy the world because Goku and Vegeta pretty much backed him into a corner.
Beerus was looking for the Legendary Saiyan and wanted to fight and put Earth on the line.
Frieza came back and destroyed the Earth after loosing not realizing the Z fighters now have god Hax.
Black didn't blow planets up he a was another genocidal maniac.
In short, Blowing up planets is short sighted. Blow up enough planets with life on it, what do you rule and who fears you?
TallicaMan1986 Black REALLY didn't make sense, its the most overlooked plot hole of his plan. He wants to kill Trunks and Earth? Blow it up when he got god ki.
Smart Alec did he want to blow up the Earth? He seemed threatened by Strong Mortals which is why he went after Trunks.
TallicaMan1986 Yeah, but trunks can't breath in space. Blow up the planet. Dunzo. Rince and repeat with other mortals. I mean, he killed the other khais and thus G.O.Ds, hard part is over. Also he frequently talked about destroying humanity in particular. (for some reason, maybe mistranslated dub/sub)
Smart Alec He still wouldnt want to do it with the ridiculous jump suit.
Also Hal Jordan has none of those feats yet he's still a bad ass.
People really shouldn't be taking power levels literally. Or mathematically, for that matter.
They sort of invite you to do so when they keep using powerlevels with absurdly large numbers, and keep giving powerlevel information to the fans outside of the series. It's said that powerlevels were meant to be absurd, but the conveying of that is pretty poor considering the closest thing they came to representing that is that people could raise their powerlevels in focused attacks and through other techniques.
100% Correct.. my issue was that Frieza could blow up planets with 1 finger in his base form, it was an idiot decision. just means every single villan thereafter can blow up planets at will during a battle if they wished. yet in battle, they would do extreme blasts that only breaks rocks. focused attack or not, its inconsistent. the power levels aswel. by the time Kid Buu was launched he could of have a power level of 1 Million. the power scaling glasses was always entertaining (how it explodes if someones level is too high). but like you say, they ruined that side of the hype and the unknown
Zaid Adams It honestly goes back further then that with the blowing up planets stuff. Vegeta destroyed Arlia on his way to Earth. Looking back at the footage he also only used 2 fingers but when facing Goku he had to charge up his Galick Gun for some reason.
broly was able to destroy the universe, but he couldn't beat 3 super saiyans and piccolo.. logic.
Negitoro Is Best Ship That's because the Arlia episode was filler. DBZ filler never matched up to the canon story.
spencer meadows yes he did literally one finger
what really ruined the power scaling was Vegeta when they showed him destroying a planet with his low power level before ariving at earth...
imo after that they had no choice.
The power scaling should've been something like this...
1. Frieza was only using 1% of his power during the first part of his fight against Frieza, at which point Goku was able to go 50/50 with Frieza,
2. If Goku's power increases by 33% after healing like Vegeta, then Goku's power would go from 90,000 to about 120,000.
3. Since Goku's fight with Frieza was 50/50 while Frieza's power was at 1%, then it's reasonable to infer that Frieza's power at 1% was also 120,000, therefore Frieza's full power (120,000 x 100) would be 12,000,000.
4. After a 50/50 fight, Frieza decides to use 50% of his power, at which point Goku couldn't even scratch Frieza, which makes perfect sense since 50% of Frieza's power is equal to 6,000,000, while Goku was still at 120,000, and it was also revealed that Goku was using Kaioken against Frieza, which would top Goku out at 1,200,000 to 2,400,000, which was still too low.
5. Now when Goku goes Super Saiyan, things get a little hairy because Goku's power level should be around the same as 100% Frieza since when Frieza goes 100%, the fight is 50/50 again, but to get Goku up to 12,000,000, the Super Saiyan transformation needs to increase his power by 100 times instead of 50 times.
I always saw the power scale as a ruse. Once a new boss comes the old barometer is out the window.
Akira should have kept it in the Thousands, You don't need to have a character reach the millions to prove he's powerful.
but great ape already broke hundred thou. realistically making vegeta with zenkai 240000 if he still had his tail. half a mill was just not enough. but then zarbon spilled the beans that frieza could also transform. so 1mil wasn't that hard too believe. but that should have been the absolute maximum! goku ssj1 at 2mil would have been plenty for a final battle.
I mean Akira should have kept the power levels low, Like Having Nappa at 2k and Geets at 2.5k etc Keep it low so it's easy to keep track. But instead he went crazy with the power levels lol
the numbers don't add or detract anything. Only caring about it does. It's literally the same if you think the numbers shouldn't exist. Because they basically don't
I wish I could go back to not caring about numbers like I did in DB. But I can't. Scouters fucked up my head. THANK YOU TORIYAMA!😠
Before Super it didn't matter whether we knew the power level or not we pretty much knew who was stronger than who. Now in Super it's all over the place
Dragon Ball Super is for the new generation. Us old heads will go insane trying to get our brains around it
it's called JUVENOIA
With recent shounen garbage coming from japan where basically everyone is having a dick measuring contest with "power levels" I honestly stopped reading them years ago, it's a bore-fest, call me cliche but the only thing worth watching/reading right now is JoJo and that is in the same shounen jump book.
Freezer is the strongest fighter ever.
Just put him in the space/time room for like 2 years.
He is literally better than a god.
Master Roshi, a legendary martial artist, one of the strongest people on the planet and powerful enough to blow up the moon -> power level of less than 200
Characters far over power level of millions -> can still fight on planet surfaces, use rocks as weapons, etc. (and not spontaneously vaporize everything around them)
Also, usually (in real life) when you are a top level athlete (or top level anything) it is very difficult to improve further and differences between these top level individuals are minuscule at best (fastest runners for example often finishing within seconds of each other)
Don't forget that Goku has been shot. Twice. By a laser and a bullet, which scratched him. Power levels are bullshit.
*Powerscaling
i know i'm reaallly late, but i wanted to share my opinion on this..
its obvious that goku can get shot by bullets or weak lasers. if i understand it correctly, they enhance their bodies by strenghtening their KI and gaining more KI control. goku got shot twice because he dropped his guard and didnt use any KI to enhance his physical body.
H
The only reason why nothing is getting up fuck during their fights is Ki, and Ki Control. At the beginning of fights, it's the normal shit but as the fight gets faster and more intense their ability to control their Ki begins to wane, destructive forces begin to happen, shit starts cracking, the earth starts quaking , the sea becomes angry. That's how I see it. This is also further enforced in DBS when Beerus and Champa fight. They're fighting at level that would obliterate any Z fighter, but it's well contained until they can't contain their anger, then shit starts getting destructive.
Maintaining a light speed fight on top of table without near minimal damage to the environment until it begins to escalate and they get angrier at each other is Ki Control.
The powerscaling got ruined once Akira Toriyama didn't like the idea anymore.
You know i wouldn't have minded Golden Frieza if he wasn't such a
blatant asspull, I could understand if in those four months of training
he at least gained power rivaling that of SSJ3 but SSGSS? what the shit
Toriyama. This was just a last ditch effort to try and make Frieza
relevant one last time. They even went as far as saying that Frieza had
massive hidden potential and that was why he achieved such monstrous
power but Gohan also had immense potential yet when he trained to death
with Goku in the Time Chamber he didn't reach a level anywhere near as
ridiculous as Frieza.
because goku turning SSJ after krillin death wasnt a asspull at all right? Or Jotaro Stoping Time too same as dio. Asspull from the 80s were the BEST but still ASSPULLS.
Goku going SSJ wasn't actually an ass pull, at least not to the same degree, if at all. It was something mentioned by Vegeta when fighting the Ginyu force. It was something foreshadowed and hinted at for at least a little bit in the series.
Frieza suddenly has never trained before and is able to surpass the power gains from SSJ2, SSJ God, and SSJ God Blue, as well as years of training and training with Gods. All this in 4 months. It just makes everything that Goku and Vegeta achieved seem worthless. It'd been better if somehow Freiza was able to stop Goku and Vegeta from going SS. I could believe Freiza in his Final Form could rival Goku and Vegeta at their base at this point in the series. It'd also made the entire situation far more intense.
Thats because Gohan was holding back all the time till the last Kamehameha vs Cell
Volair and? What convenience he turned into SSJ when he needed the most, all the training, techinques all wortheless agaisnt frieza and PUFF he turn SSJ, recover all his energy and injuries...yeah NOT AN ASSPULL. Vegeta mention the Legendary Super Saiyan but never imply that is some sort of Transformation.
I۞_۞I Gohan holding back? he wasnt.
Power levels are bullshit, enough said. Even Team Four Star pointed this out.
17 and 18 messed it up imo.They were powerful for no reason but for escalation.They never explained it.
I mean they are another bad example but it was happening long before that
@@ivanbackfromthecardshop8093 and then jiren and broly came.
@@giokyo9465 what's wrong with jiren
Wait a minute....
*_FREIZA'S A DUDE!?_*
They reproduce like starfish. Every time krillin cuts a tail off another frieza is made.
Wait, where? When? How? LINKS PLEASE?!?!?!?
It was really just ridiculous power inflation that was the problem with Freeza. If I had to choose one character who COMPLETELY messed up the power scale, it would certainly be Buu.
1. Endless Goku vs. Gohan debates.
2. Kid Buu vs Buuhan
3. How strong is Gotenks
So many questions, but no definitive answer.
***** Not really, I'd say he's intelligible enough to just go with the flow when the Anime literally has Goku state that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and then proceed to tell Vegeta that he could defeat him with a full powered attack.
Definitely, I take pride in knowing the original intentions of the author and the Manga, but I wouldn't go as far as to call people "morons" just because they didn't understand the strength comparison between fictional characters.
DBZ Macky Goku never stated that Kid Buu was the strongest Buu.
Isaiah Gordon Heh, you sure about that? This thread on Kanzenshuu should clear everything up.
www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28207
DBZ Macky uhhhh, that doesn't clear up nothing. First, Goku could've been talking about how ruthless Kid Buu was compared to the other Buu's when he said "he's on a different level" he never stated that he was stronger, or else he would've flat out said it, but he didn't. Second, didn't old kai said in the manga that kid buu was the most dangerous? I could've sworn he did, which also proves that Kid Buu isn't the strongest. Third, Buutenks said that he was stronger than every other Buu that came before him, so Kid Buu again isn't the strongest Buu.
Isaiah Gordon I'm not denying the fact that Super Buu is stronger. All I'm saying is that it's not so obvious, in fact, evidence is on both sides really.
It's just the interpretation that matters. And really, if I didn't know any better, I wouldn't be surprised if the final villain of the series was indeed the strongest.
I wish Frieza would've stayed strong, and they would've stayed weak. It would've been the reality of the situation.
power levels are bullshit
And this joke is so old now it's boring.
Laughingstock Media But its the truth
Sonic the Hedgehog ikr
G+ is terrible Which is why power levels were basically dropped.
No, powerlevels make a lot of sense.
Honestly, Frieza is powerful as he is because Akira Toryama never intended to continue the series after the Frieza saga ended.
Remember, in the manga, "Dragon Ball Z" never existed. All the manga, up to the end of the Buu arc, is named just "Dragon Ball", without the "Z" on it, so ending the series on the Frieza saga makes sense.
So why hold back if you have no intention in continuing anyway? So he made the "last villain" as powerful as could be. The problem is that Akira is complete sold to the companies behind the marketing of Dragon Ball (that's not speculation, it's a fact), and simply could not stop the series there. So he wrote himself into a corner.
Dragon ball is a series that should not go on this long, its story structure is not that flexible.
I read somewhere that the series was originally supposed to end at Pilaf.
I read somewhere that the series was originally supposed to end at Oolong.
I read somewhere that the series was originally supposed to end at Bulma.
The Professional Novice lmao
I would have preferred these:
Since Frieza is considered a prodigy in terms of power and having a sharp sense of adapting to combat - his only training coming from King Cold I presume in sparring - this is training in the sense that Frieza saw techniques used and learned them while possibly battling - it makes sense that he would not train as much never meeting anyone who was powerful enough and ruthless enough to challenge him other than Beerus the Destroyer. He heard of Majin Buu, but never thought to approach him in any degree.
Here's the thing... It would have made sense then that Frieza only trained to use his second form which would be thought as the height of his power. However, after Piccolo beating him, he pushes deeper into His reserves. Piccolo is keeping up more than Frieza expected, so Vegeta does the death thing via Krillin and is healed to be even more powerful. Everyone beats Frieza to a pulp.
He can't believe it! Enraged, this causes him to begin an entirely new transformation. The Xenomofph form! Frieza is truly surprised. Another major battle ensues and although Frieza is winning big, they keep coming back healed and stronger!
He thinks they are immortal. A disparate fight for survival makes him wonder if maybe there's more in him than he realizes and forces another transformation with a test. That's when he learns of Dende!
It goes from there. Frieza keeps pushing himself and pushing himself. But his weakness is thinking he has reached enough power to once again dominate as well as not learning to hammer out weaknesses before picking fights.
This isn't even a question. YES. Power creep is the #1 problem in the Dragon Ball series, by leaps and bounds. Keep in mind that Master Roshi was powerful enough to COMPLETELY OBLITERATE THE MOON back in first World Martial Arts Tournament saga, and Vegeta was powerful enough to destroy entire planets when we first met him.
Things only spiraled further out of control from then on. Vegeta had a power level of 18,000 when he first appeared, Frieza had a power level of 530,000 in his base form, and 150,000,000 when fully powered up in his final form.
At this point in the series (Dragon Ball Super), even the most basic ki attacks from the likes of Goku or Vegeta should be far more than enough to obliterate the entire solar system. Power creep is the cancer that is, and has been, killing Dragon Ball. It completely ruins emersion. It is like a ghost that haunts every single episode, every single time a fight occurs there's always that thought in the back of your head, "shouldn't that blast have destroyed the entire planet?"
Roshi must of been like 100-200 at that point. Really I think you are understating it. If a 100 can obliterate a small planet, then Goku should be accidentally destroying the solar system every time he belches.
what Vegeta did blowing up planets was filler.
Here's one thing that always pissed me off about DBZ. Frieza was supposedly the most powerful being in the universe for all those years, everyone in the universe was aware of him (besides Earth), and NOBODY apparently came close to his strength... and then once he was defeated, it's like, "Oh wait! There's suddenly these guys who are much stronger than him!" To me, it seems like Akira Toriyama wrote himself into a hole, and he just kind of awkwardly wrote his way out of it. It's almost as if Frieza was supposed to be the final villain in the series, with Goku's Super Saiyan transformation being the final big reveal. That would actually make a lot of sense.
ShortFingeredShreder it was supposed to end after frieza, but due to the Shows popularity the studio pressed hthem to make more. Power scaling in dragonball is broken though, I mean they are now hundreds of times stronger just them punching each other should obliterate parts of a planet by now, instead it's almost just like when they started, BUT they can effortlessly blow up planets????
I always said the story would have been much more coherent if Cell had came before Frieza, however that would look.
jeilman93 Because Goku SSJ Blue fighting Krillin means that they control their Ki so much they get weaker?.... Yeah it makes no sense at all. Toriyama just writes it off as Goku "holding back"
I give him a pass for Cell, I mean the guy didn't even exist and is basically the combination of frieza and a bunch of saiyans/humans.
Frieza is my favorite villain. Its because his actions had always effected the story in some way. For example: The whole reason goku was on earth in the first place was because of frieza. He isn't just some villain who poped up out of no where and started blowing stuff up. He has history that is a big part of dbz. Hes got a massive empire throughout the universe and his actions heavily influenced the story of dragon ball z up until his death against trunks. And he was the first character to showcase multiple transformations. But unlike super saiyan, frieza's transformations suppressed his power rather than inhanced it.
I believe Toriyama once mentioned that he established the power levels just so that he could tear them down, that numbers and statistics didn't mean much in a fight.
I'll echo and and expand upon Notrel here: Though you make some very compelling arguments, I think you're missing the point of power levels, especially those given by scouters. With its introduction, you almost immediately see power level lose any sort of accuracy. Scouter says Opponent X is a cakewalk, but Opponent X beats them anyway. The point of it was to show how wrong power levels were at assessing opponents.
Equate it to the ol' "how much ya bench?" metric. All that metric really tells you is how much a person can push away from themselves when their back is braced against a hard surface. Would a world record bench presser be a good fighter? Would that record holder beat in a fight an opponent that could only bench a quarter of that world record? You couldn't say because you don't have any information about their fighting prowess.
> Would that record holder beat in a fight an opponent that could only bench a quarter of that world record?
Yes. That's how the laws of physics work: a squirrel can't out-wrestle a bear.
Thus why: Power levels = bullshit.
You seem to get parts of what we're saying, but not the whole thing. Let's put it to you another way: do you really think the current bench press world record holder, Ryan Kennelly, could beat current UFC heavyweight champion, Stipe Miocic? Stipe might can bench 300 lbs, maybe 400. But it would literally be dangerous for Ryan Kennelly to fight Stipe Miocic. Miocic would quickly and easily really hurt Kennelly.
"Yes. That's how the laws of physics work: a squirrel can't out-wrestle a bear."
The first ever UFC event featured a 215 pound dude knocking out a 450+ pound guy in less than a minute in the first bout. Moreover, the entire event (it was a tournament) was won by the smallest competitor that entered - and it wasn't even close. He walked over every opponent they put him in the cage with. You bring up the laws of physics. People trained in fighting learn how to use said physics to their advantage. Fighting isn't all about strength. Put a 300 pound powerlifter who hasn't been in a fight since the 6th grade against a 180 pound BJJ black belt who gets in fights every other weekend and I'm putting my money on the Black Belt every time.
Notrel I've heard that before. And the only thing I cab think is::
Why the fuck introduce something into a narrative for the sole purpose of saying it doesn't matter to the narrative?!? That's fuckin stupid on Toriyama's part if it's true.
I don't think it is true, though. I think Toriyama just gave a bullshit excuse to explain away his fuck ups. Wouldn't be the first time.
Imagine if Cell trained.
The creator of dragon ball said himself that power levels are meaningless and exist purely to show that the characters are stronger than they might seem
Breathe dude, are you trying to go Super Saiyan?
Whitefright l m fa o
I watched this in x2 speed, because I thought he was going to slow lol
Yea I watched in x1.5 speed, but at x1 you can hear him take quick breaths pretty frequently
Whitefright it’s editing bruh
would ruin the power scaling
Lord Freeza is the strongest in the universe
you misspelled hercule
AuraMaster Lord Beerus would like a word with you
AuraMaster Gohan is strongest in the universe but still doesnt do crap😂
Powerscaling in Dragon Ball was ruined the moment Goku defeated Tao Pai Pai not by adopting a better strategy but by getting a bigger number
I think the Dragonball series started sucking once everyone could fly and if you couldn't you were an npc.
Appearifiable
Unless you're Magetta.
Appearifiable No you're an NPC if you're not, a minimum, a solar system buster. You need to be able to kill a planet with a flick of a finger which after the Cell Games is everyone introduced after 17 and 18 (besides Mr. Satan and Videl) can do.
elevate07
I get what you mean now....
and it upsets me greatly.
I'll give you the saiyan saga, but the freeza saga ia what caused this entire mess.
You mean to imply that Bibbidi/Bobbidi can blow up planets with the flick of a finger? I doubt it
This is a worthy topic for a video. It's effectively a "chicken-or-egg" question - did Frieza set the ball rolling on the runaway powerup trend in Japanese media, or was it merely the first inevitable manifestation of a pre-existing trend?
In this case, as is the norm, I have to go with the latter. This stems from a difference in perspective between Japanese and American-western audiences on acceptable plot developments, in turn a product of inherent attitudes. Time for a brief essay on the nature of these distinctions, how they apply to manga writing, and what it means for us as an audience and our expectations of the medium.
North-East Asian design sensibilities differ from those in the West, visible from the foundations of religious and mystical thought through academia and philosophy of decorum, war and society through to direct applications in technology and the arts. On the whole, the European-derived perspective is ideological, and views fundamental principles as important - there is an emphasis on consistency and thorough application, and when exceptions occur it feels like a betrayal. In fiction, this applies both to internal rules of a setting, as well as the writer's design principles when creating a piece. From either perspective, the cardinal sin in western narrative design is the "Asspull" - the feeling that the writer is contradicting their past writing and just slapping things onto the story for the sake of immediate conveniance. Asspulls take two forms:
- From the internal logic perspective, the asspull is something that simply clashes. Strong asspulls outright negate canon, while weak asspulls raise increasingly contrived circumstances about the story's setting. "Why did X happen when Y was a factor all along?" and similar concerns often arise with increasing powerscaling.
- From the author's principles perspective, the asspull represents contrived, short-term/immediatistic thinking, and worst of all the "special case". Special cases are inherently negative to the western sensibility, and always recieve great scrutiny in serious fields like science, history and politics. The emblem of a special case in fiction writing is the "Mary Sue", a character powered by "just so" plot conveniances to succeed at every task in every respect, including the task of winning over characters in the story.
None of these factors matter so much to the North-East Asian perspective. Technology is viewed as inherently contrived, and as such nothing is seen as unusual about just-so special cases and scenarios. So Japanese writers don't feel a problem with introducing a villain with incredible power, enough to blow away all the heroes on introduction - then have the heroes build up strength and level up power until at least one can somehow defeat the villain - only to then introduce ANOTHER villain that can blow all the heroes away at first, have the heroes train up in in response to increase their power by ANOTHER factor of 10, and so on... none of this bats much of an eyelid. What we American, British or otherwise European, or Europeanised, readers percieve as a point of concern, and of endless debate in forums, is just par for the course of Shonen Manga design.
As far as the Japanese creative forces and audiences are both concerned, Dragon Ball characters can continue to largely one-up themselves without it ever placing a critical strain on the integrity of the plot. For us westerners, it seems like the story becomes ever more tenuous, and we battle to maintain an interest or suspend our disbelief. The simple cycle of "here comes another super villain, guess the hero will do 10* more pushups than they did last time and glow a new colour" is the true pattern, one not only entirely predictable but also obnoxious in its meta, "the author's hand is visible" sense. That sometimes an old villain - like Freiza! - sometimes reoccurs as an inexplicably-tough re-encounter doesn't help - complete author asspulls that cannot be predicted by the internal logic of the story only betray the external simplicity of the story's rules.
A final afterthought: western audiences tend to describe the actions of the author of a fictional universe or series as akin to "god" - countless sayings and metaphors such as "rule of god", "Deus Ex Machina" and so on refer to practices concerning the topics discussed in the essay. But the far east never developed a monotheistic tradition on its own, and indeed its most powerful gods never drifted far from the practices and worship of more common, lesser nature spirits, who would be worshiped and invoked non-dogmatically for certain purposes. Even paganistic European and near-Middle Eastern practices had more of a strict hierarchy, and sense of distinctions between true gods and mere creatures and monsters. The gods and monsters of the east were just another part and consequence of *Magic* - a much greater force to this day in Eastern thought and tradition. It didn't take long for the concept of sorcery - mortals invoking mystical forces to bend the rules and make contrived circumstances roll in their favour - to be associated with evil, witchcraft and devil worship in the west. Consider the differences between Marvel and DC superhero's powers versus those of stock Shonen Manga like Dragonball and One Piece through this lens - as the difference between examplars of a godly tradition versus mortals tapping into universal, neutral magic.
Further relevant topics of discussion concern broad E/W design distinctions in fiction, technology, society and entertainment that may be of interest:
- Strength, feats and attributes. The generic "Power Level" as not only the be-all and end-all of all between-character competition and feat scales, but as a factor at all; reflects the NEA sensibility of self-discipline and composure, hard work and self-refinement to make anyone competent and industrious in any field, with those who fail as lacking discipline and moral fibre, versus Western sensibility of individual specialties, strengths and needs, natural and gracious ability in favoured fields, and failure as a sign of misapplication - all boiling towards a rainbow-of-unique-powers aesthetic
- Ammunition, medicine, supplies and resources as not only cheap and disposable conveniances, but also as unecessary factors at all for damage-rate, survival and success purposes; contrast with Western principle of ammo as crucial and precious reserve, availability and generation of supplies as huge factor for success and balance, and focus on in-game and meta economy in general
Amazing analysis, this should be voted higher.
Whoever read all of this is out of their damn minds lol
This was an amazing analysis
power scaling has been ruined in DB ever since they went past the Namek arc, we all know that.
If goku went from 120 mil to god level in 4 months no one would care but if Frieza (a villain) does it everyone gotta speculate and theorize how he did it
Silent Console Gaming I disagree with the base of Frieza
Silent Console Gaming I agree. If anything Goku ruined power levels and the hierarchies the start of Z. How did he jump over Raditz,Nappa,Vegeta,Kiwi,Dodoria,Zarbon,Zarbon's transformation,Nail,Recoome,Burter, Jeice,Captain Ginyu,Great Ape Vegeta,And all of Frieza's transformations within like 6 months? These guys have been gods to Goku for years and years and he steps over them in that short of span. Frieza does the same thing and everyone throws their hands in the air. Only dbz fans.
People cared about that too but the ritual and him losing anyway, made that easier to swallow. The main thing he's getting at is that things started getting out of hand during the namek saga with Freeza and to a lesser extent Goku and Vegeta.
And again with Beerus which made the god ritual necessary.
+bandicoot2ps1 he stepped over them because gravity training that much I can accept. going from 90k to 150m just because toriyama can't write for shit I can't
Goku was already in the billions with SS3, the God ki should have put him in the trillions, but Super made Beerus way stronger than he was in the movie as in the movie he could be hurt by an SS3 power if caught off guard. In Super it was nothing to him. But it makes no sense how a pure heart in the first place could give a boost like that. It was all extremely stupid.
Too be fair, Frieza’a strength makes sense in terms of the fact he’s a universal conqueror. It’d be difficult for him too be the galactic menace he is if his strength could be challenged by just anyone.
What killed the pacing/scaling of the series, I think, is that Frieza was thrown at Goku too early. The irony of the low level Saiyan rising up too overthrow the being who exterminated his species is great - but Goku had only found out about his heritage relatively recently.
There needed too be more arcs, villains, stories etc between Raditz and Namek where Goku could have a chance too find his feet as a Saiyan, and the audience can get a feel for what the Saiyans are exactly.
Because Frieza was originally meant to be the final villain of the series, he’s introduced quite early after Vegeta, and once all the characters were on Namek it’s as if Toriyama wrote himself into a corner, and the only way out was too abuse the fuck out of Zenkai.
I always thought the Android saga should have come along before Frieza, as it was a direct consequence of a previous arc in the series, and payed closure too several characters.
Anyway, yeah, stuff like that.
it was perfect, cause freiza was the last boss, strongest in the universe, after frieze everything is just filler.
Gothic Zwo #goldenfiller
ummmm @Gothic Zwo filler means when a anime adds scenes, arcs,and movies to the show but, it never once show it in the manga. For example lets say in the Naruto the anime adds a story about shikamaru going to ramen shop and eating like 10k bowls then leaves but in the manga it never once showed that that means its filler. Another example is when goku got his drivers license it showed it in the anime but not the manga so its filler.
you live in your own little headcanon world right?
@Zer0dog filler is basically stuff that's not relevant to the manga, so the manga can be ahead of the anime
I wish
from what i heard the freeza saga was suppose to be the final saga of Z
it was. but killing off goku was too much for the goku fan boys. so they sorta highjacked the series... ruining it
Frankie Cardona there were a lot of times toriyama thought about ending the series. hell he thought about ending it during the original dragon ball once they gathered all of the dragon balls, he even thought of changing the main character from goku to gohan (which explains the slice of life episodes before the buu arc)
Yeah pretty much each time was told not to lol, also android 19 and gero were supposed to be the main villains but told to change it, and again when he introduced 16,17, and 18.....and cells first 2 forms lol
To Z nope. It was just a rumour. Akira wasn't ending it with Freiza. There is no proof and no confirmation from akira that he intended to end it with Freiza. It was just a fan rumour that gets confused for fact. There is evidence though that leads more towards Freiza not being the end.
every saga in Z was supposed to end it off. Saiyans were supposed to end it off. then we got to frieza. then the androids. then cell. then buu. then.......... STEP IN THE GRAND TOUR DRAGONBALL GT!
Here are five ways to fix the power scaling in the Dragon Ball franchise:
1) Make the villains just strong enough so that they pose a real threat for the protagonists but don't make them so strong that there's no way the heroes can REASONABLY beat them
2) Focus less on characters just overpowering one another and more on them using things like special techniques, bizarre powers, and/or ingenious tactics to overcome an enemy
3) Don't have the first big bad of your series be a planet buster when the final antagonist can do the exact same thing with no apparent differences other than some random side character saying: "he's so much stronger than *insert previous villain's name here*" and expecting that to be a good enough reason
4) NEVER introduce someone as the "strongest in the universe" that makes the world within the story feel small and make everything afterward seem redundant or lackluster
5) Keep ALL the characters within the main cast relevant and don't force them all into the background, ESPECIALLY not the ones who've been around since the beginning of the story and who have plenty of potential for growth
Please note that these are just my opinions so don't flame me just because you might think differently than I do.
This 💯 iam with u man the things you mentioned those are all of the things db needs
Dbs always follow the same basic story formula
Op bad guy appears and trashes goku and friends
Not even gokus 1000000x kaioken is enough to beat the villain even tho its been established that goku has become stronger because of the previous arc
Some miracle happens but the heroes fail to capitalize on it
Some asspull ending happens where the heroes dont actually lose but then they win somehow ?
FYI, in an interview, Frieza's voice actor in Japanese said the Golden Frieza's Power Level was 100 Quintillion, since he was a 'nice guy.' Of course, that a pun because in Japanese, 'nasai gui' translates as 100 Quintillion. Power Levels really mean nothing due to the fact that Toriyama only used random numbers to tell a story and never gave us a definitive explanation on how they are caculated or what they measure. You say a Power Level of 5 and I'll say 5 what? Tons? Miles per hour? Watts? What? There is no set formula nor any real pattern. Ridiculously high numbers with no meaning are just that... ridiculous.
You get it. This video is pointless because it's just there for character plot/development to get themselves stronger. The numbers don't mean anything.
DarkByke Twitch So why watch?
Power Level is just a comparison.
A being with 10 "PW" has double strenght, durability and speed? (Idk about speed) compared to a being with 5 PW.
If in the universes only exist one character with Power Level, there's no comparison, so it doesn't mean anything.
So what you're saying is that at the end of the saga Piccolo's power was 1,500,000… Vegeta was 2,100,000… and (base) Goku was 300,000…
¿Qué?
+Hung Nguyen And what do miles per hour or tons mean? These are just ways we humans compare things...just as is with power level. You always need a point of comparison, the real issue is Toriyama never provided a truly solid explanation of the source of their power, how it functions, how it grows.
The one who ruined powerscaling Is akira toriyama
5yrs later, there's now Black Frieza that can one shot Ultra-Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta. Frieza really did ruin power scaling.
Well UE and UI are techniques not really forms
@@ahem7 idk they look like forms to me
I wish you woulda mentioned Trunks just butchering Frieza in his robot Frieza thing with a sword like he was an insect. I swear it's been many years but didn't Frieza boast his robot body made him like 10x or 100x stronger? Then Trunks comes in and goes Super Sayain but also can't beat the androids?
Frieza was supposed to be the last villain. It was supposed to end after the Namek story arc.
Nope, that's a myth
The problem with power levels in dbz n dbs and even db is that they seem to be exponential which is counter intuitive beacause the closer something gets to its limit the harder it should be to progress.
My imagined scenario which would have made the Frieza saga even more enjoyable to me and would have not completely destroyed the power scaling involves Frieza being weaker in all of his forms and having a maximum power of around 5 million, Goku being weaker after his gravity training and kaioken never going up to X20. The specifics are as follows...
Goku's PL increases to around 40k after the gravity training, a 5x increase over his fight with Vegeta. And becomes able to use Kaioken up to X5 without killing himself. He arrives on namek, takes out a weakened Recoome in one shot just as before, but has an actual fight without Kaioken with Burter and Jeice, not the one sided BS we got. Finds an opportunity and goes Kaioken in epic fashion, breaking the scouters and quickly dispatching Burter.
Jeice then flees to get Captain Ginyu whose PL in this scenario is 180k as opposed to 120k. He and Goku have an epic back and forth clash until he is forced to use a Kaioken X5 for one final attack. Goku cripples Ginyu but is left severely drained... but luckily he still has a senzu left. But wait! he forgot about Jeice who restrains him from behind before he can eat it, Ginyu then gets up and does the body change. Jeice then proceeds to sledgehammer Goku into the water and fire a series of blasts at him to finish him off (unsuccesfully). He then tells Ginyu about the bean and how it healed vegeta, so Ginyu retrieves the dropped senzu and eats it, causing a zenkai boost but still he is unable to harness much of Goku's power.
Everything else plays out as normal but now Goku only needs to be about 120k in his base for the super saiyain transformation to overcome Frieza at full power and he got there with an extra Zenkai.
Dokainin why would He want goku's body if ginyu beats him
+Robert Warfield the scenario has ginyu lose in a final clash revealing goku's hidden power. thus the body change becomes worthwhile to him along with the fact that Vegeta, gohan and Krillin had already gone after the dragon balls and Ginyu being in no state to fight he would have been left with no choice.
That still leaves the problem of Zenkai itself, which is a cheat Torayama left for Sayan characters to always be as strong as needed. They just need to lose a fight and survive (or not, with the Dragon Balls) and BLAM, they are as powerful as needed for their next challenge. If not, just lose again and again until they get as powerful as needed.
And I know Goku is a really shitty friend or teacher, that's why he never really taught any of his friends techniques like instant transmission or kaioken, but HE KNOWS where to learn those techniques. Why oh why, did he never, say, tell Gohan to go to a planet of people who can teach him instant transmission as well? Or tell his friends that were training with Mr. Kaio that he could teach them Kaioken? Then at least you could have the secondary characters trying to break barriers with Kaioken and be somewhat competitive with the SSJ transformations.
+Rafael Neumann except if they had been more consistent and not give an arbitrary boost of 3 million to goku they would not have been a problem. Toriyama just ended up writing himself into a corner with frieza and had no choice but to make them rediculous
I really enjoyed the power scale and knowing the quantitative power of everyone. They should have continued.
I think Freeza would have been scary even if his power was about 1000 since the strongest humans were 230.
Frieza: I did it! I ruiled power scaling! I did it 2 times!!! I only trained for half a year and overpowered the protagonist!
Goten: I became SSJ in the age of 6 and trained none...
Merged Zamasu: I can power up infinitely!
Broly: Good, I overpowered the protagonist in 2 hours
Copy fluid Vegeta: It took me 5 minutes...
Uub: I was BOORN THIS WAY!
Arale: Does any one of you want to play???
LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE: NOOOOOO!!!!!!!
This is why low-power fantasy is strictly better. For example, while Nen in Hunter x Hunter is a power-of-magnitude increase in power over those without nen, after that gaining more power takes a lifetime of training and/or putting conditionals on your abilities that limit their general usefulness but greatly increase their power under the chosen conditions. The power curve greatly flattens after what Gon and Killua gain after completing Greed Island. Killua gains Godspeed after discovering more properties of his already existing power, but you could say he was capable of Godspeed at any point after Greed Island, he only had to discover he was capable. He only had to come up with the idea of siphoning off electricity from an outlet in order to increase the amount of nen he has. If he found out that trick sooner, he would have had godspeed sooner.
Grug-Lug 98
Wasn't Gon more powerful than Meruem in his super buff guy mode? I think I remember Neferopitou saying something like that.
+Grug-Lug 98 I think there's a reason why Netero fought Meruem and nobody else, these 2 were probably the most powerful beings in the world and Gon won't surpass any of them soon. Also the ants were a level B threat before Meruem got born. The dark continent is probably filled with magical beings and stuff and will bring the fights on a different level in that regard.
usedtobereign
Netero fought Meruem alone because Meruem gains power from each nen-user he defeats and consumes. So if Netero had brought a weaker hunter, like one of the zodiacs, and they had gotten defeated, he wouldn't have stood a chance.
ähvä
Netero didn't have that information. Colt last saw Meruem at the queen's hive, and Meruem's power was only revealed to him and his guards at East Gorteau's capital. While Colt did give all the information he had, the bit about Meruem power being that he "becomes stronger after every nen user he eats" was unavailable. It was unavailable even after it was all over, because Netero never witnessed Meruem eat a nen user.
· 0xFFF1 fuck at least toriyama sensei isnt always doing nothing on holidays
Turn into giant ape, 10x power increase
Hair changes color, 50x power increase
Maybe Toriyama knew that he ruined the power scaling with Frieza, and actually made Resurrection F only to make it look like a running gag.
I think the original dragon ball Z freeza saga power level was fine considering it was mainly for kids & teens. Plus the build up for seeing a super sayain for the first time they had to make freeza crazy powerful for Goku to barley beat him. The power scaling was ridiculous though. But watching DBsuper all these years later I think your right. It’s completely ruined power scaling even more making golden freeza somehow as strong as Goku in god form in only 4 months when he couldn’t even beat virgin super sayian Goku on namik.
I don't think that scene in Battle of Gods means that his base form never surpassed Frieza. We know they suppress themselves to hide and whatnot and takes effort to maintain a high level of power.
Thank you! Was thinking the same thing! Lol
Also beerus considered defeating frieza kinda promisint but felt dissapointed at ssj3. He was overrating frieza a lot.
@@unapersonamas5941 Or maybe Beerus was aware of how powerful Frieza could become given that length of time.
Easily he was my first reason I thought dbs scaling is all kinds of whack
how sweet. the whole super series is ruining the power scaling
I still wondering why are we STILL taking about power levels when this point in Super there's so many powerful characters that it shouldn't even matter anymore. Why did Toriyama has to use power scaling in this Series I'll never know.
Perhaps so we can quantify the differences in power between various fictional characters so that we may have a somewhat accurate measure of their actual capabilites which we could put to use further in the form of what-if battles or to simply enjoy a bit of trivia?
+DBZ Macky heres the thing tho. a good series doesnt need to throw numbers at you.
yu yu hakusho: togoru was stronger than yusuke at first by alot. ofcourse he did use percentages, but not power levels
onepiece: hawkeye is way stronger than luffy
naruto: cant see neji beating say pain
in the end numbers weren't needed to show something like that
#1Slayer Excatly!
+#1Slayer Yep, nobody is denying that Powar Levuls were not really necessary.
But they are a thing now, and are harmless as long as they're taken just as little pieces of trivia. They are definitely a thing in the fandom, and there's nothing wrong with talking about them.
Jaden West every series use this
I think they shouldn’t of made power levels a thing in the first place. The power levels community is the most cancer part of the dragon ball fandom.
I think it was reasonable to make Frieza, as an alien, so strong.
For me, the escalation happened when Gero, on earth, just build androids/cyborgs that were even stronger, without any explanation.
The numbers where always whack, though.
Yeah, like cell makes sense since he is made with most of the strong fighters cells but A18 and A17 make no sense. What material and mechanism on Earth is strong enough to even rival the multiverse's strongest fighters?
@@ultimateninja1704 Yup, old dude builds some robots in his basement and is able to make them stronger than "Emperor of the Universe" and "The most powerful being in the Universe" (besides Beerus who is a god, Whis who is an angel and Majin Buu who is a demon).
@TripleDoubleNoTAS Of course that's absolute bullshit, but it's yeeeeeaaaars after it has already escalated.
@TripleDoubleNoTAS About DBS Frieza I agree and I do think that it's bullshit, in reality GT's approach to Frieza was much more belivable (one shoted by Ultimate Gohan).
I mean how much more powerful could he get in 4 months ? 20x, 50x is pushing it but let's say that he got 100x stronger (his power level now is 120 000 000 000) it still should not be enough to get to level of super sayian god super sayian a transformation that should be at the very least low universal level.
I could see Frieza being DBZ ssj3 (that's still pushing it) level with his Golden Form but the "canon" power jump is just too ridiculous.
Also Frieza messed up power scaling, his first form was 530k but his final form 100% was 120m and why the hell do those numbers need to be so big ? Goku was "over 9000" and was dominating 5000 Nappa there's no need to be that much stronger to dominate someone.
What if Goku's base was 300k and Frieza's final form would be 5m, ssj would be 25x multiplier and Goku would be 6m. The story doesn't change at all only numbers do. Ssj2 would then be 50x multiplier and ssj3 200x again nothing in the story changes except the fact that numbers don't get crazy.
@@fly672 I do believe it makes sense that DBZ Frieza had to be many many times stronger than any member of his army bc he had to command an entire empire who all feared him and hailed him as Lord Frieza. If he had only been twice as strong as Captain Ginyu then the Ginyu Force could have feasibly teamed up to overpower him. But Frieza reigned supreme and he had absolute command over his entire army. To do this he needed to be very very strong in his base, but his people all had to know that he had much power also in reserve.
@Laughingstock Media "characters didn't scale so highly after the frieza arc"
So I guess you're forgetting the fact that Perfect Cell made fools out of everyone, including all of the Super Saiyan fighters at the time, and yet when Gohan made the leap to Super Saiyan 2, he made child's play out of Cell? That seems like a more extreme jump than Goku made to the original Super Saiyan level, because Frieza could at least put up a fight against Goku at that point. Cell, on the other hand, couldn't even think about trying to fight Super Saiyan 2 Gohan; he was seriously made to look like a 5 year old child being made to fight Connor McGregor UFC style. The fact that Cell eventually came back after killing himself and was on par with Gohan isn't of much consequence, as he himself attributed that to the Zen-Kai (pardon the spelling, if it's incorrect) effect that occurred when just one of his cells survived the blast that destroyed King Kai's planet.
We see the same thing in towards the end of the Buu saga, where Super Buu has been absorbing everyone left and right, leaving just Goku and Vegeta to fight him. As soon as these two fuse together, however, Vegito even in his BASE form makes Super Buu (Gohan absorbed, or "Buuhan," as I've seen) look like even less than a child! Vegito taunts him while beating him senseless, going to farther lengths than he had to to show his strength (though, to be fair his plans were later explained when he revealed that he got absorbed on purpose in order to free the others, which ultimately created Kid Buu).
The point is, every time there is some insanely strong villain in this show who has this enormous, never-before-seen power level that simply cannot be matched, somebody comes along and not only matches it, but goes so exponentially far past it that the villain is now made to look irrelevant by the new standard of power. I get that this is the point of the show, and I am not complaining about any of the times that this has happened. In fact, it's my favorite part about the show, and seeing these transformation scenes always gets me hyped up. I just wanted to present this case to you because you seem to have a notion that the Frieza arc was the only one in which characters had insanely scaling power levels.
You don't need to be many times above someone in power to dominate or defeat them in combat, or "make fools of them", as I've displayed in a number of videos on this channel. Browse around a little.
Laughingstock Media What is Harold's power level?
The problem is that every battle starting with the android battle became a curb stomp battle rather than a competitive close fight. There's nothing wrong with curb stomps occasionally but that's all the battle was. Tactics went out the window.
Dragon Ball Z became a parody the moment it started these ridiculous power levels
lol guys.Toriyama doesn't wanna do this shit anymore.Hes doing it on purpose.He tried making the show shit with the Buu thing but people were loving it so he gave us super.Now everyone's slowly leaving the series and hating it.In his eyes this is probably a success. I wouldn't want to do this shit either if I had such an unsatisfiable fanbase.
Actually buu was probably his favorite saga since had the least editorial restriction on that one. If anything, the androids are were he was done with the series.
Just Some Dude lol. Actually no to the super part. Battle of Gods was created as a response to Evolution, and a nice film to celebrate dragon ball with good writing and character interactions. Afterwards it was the current writers and artists faults, while Toriyama just provided the outlines.
Take a shot every time he says 'essentially'
Did you gen a zenkai?
5 years later: Okay guys umm the Z-fighters trained with whis and now their suppressed jiren level and they all have ultra instinct.
So having 2 people fight (Goku vs Beerus) that can punch each other and destroy the universe, but it's Freeza who blows up power scaling????
OK I posted this before listening to video. I'll finish it and come back
his birth base was 120,000,000 so if he trained he should be able to get that strong
no. stop. hold the phone. do not collect 200 dollers. danger Will Robinson. no1 ever said he was born with 120m no1. that is the WILDEST assumption I ever heard. and I've heard it all. he was 120m buff(100%) after we can only assume a lifetime. he popped planet vegeta when goku was a baby. so he's already a few decades older and he appeared to be already fully grown and having ruled space since he met the saiyans. so he might just be over 100. with that said we have no way of knowing how much his power increased because he was always suppressed. for all we know he was born with 1mil and his power only grew until the day he fought goku. true he never trained. but that doesn't mean his power was static. truth is we just don't know. beerus himself has stated that he'd take out frieza if his power ever grew too high.
To Z yes why would beerus worry about a person who's max power wasn't no where supreme kais beerus knew freeza had potential to become much stronger beerus didn't even know who the fuck majin buu was but he knew freeza
Frieza is very young for his race too.
Even as a kid I was confused as hell over the power level issues.
My problem comes from how Supreme Kai states that he, along with his peers, could beat Freeza with one punch and how much stronger Goku and the rest were than he was then. I think the truest form of what would happen if Freeza came back to life was in Fusion Reborn where Gohan beats him in one punch. Resurrection F ruins the entire foundation of everything we've ever seen, in four months it'd hardly be believable if he was at Perfect Cell's level.
Gohan was able to pass Goku (earth's strongest warrior) at 5 because of a tantrum. Goku went from a PL of 400-8,000 with 1 year of training, then from somewhere around 16,000 - 180,000 with 1 week of training in the gravity chamber, then from 180-3 million or whatever insane number it took to face Frieza - then ss1. So Goku basically increased his PL 375,000X in 1 year.
Not inconceivable that Frieza would be able to do the same in 4-6 months since had never actually trained. We don't know how much of a multiplier the gold form was.
Always remember goku achieved an angel form N 48 mins
Yeah, I kind of agree
Final Form Frieza got whaled on by base form Goku
Then
He adds god ki to his final form and dominates SSJB (for most of the fight) which is super saiyan with God ki