Overwatch 2: Conflicting Game Design Philosophy, an Analysis
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2025
- Hi!~ This is my Overwatch 2 rant. I hope it was easy to digest, I know things were a bit all over the place considering different portions of it were written at different time's throughout all this info we've gotten recently. I hope you like it :D
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This is a very good analysis. I've always felt Torbjorn is one of the earliest examples of Overwatch's obsession with homogenizing over the general FPS audience. At launch Torbjorn was goofy and kinda broken, he'd get potg without being alive, and if he was alive the only thing he was doing in a firefight was smacking his gun. He needed a rework, the devs decided the rework would be to emphasize his gun and make this builder character more of a projectile dps character. They seemed to not even see the other path, which was to make Torbjorn more strategically complex. Give him MORE buildings so he has to multi-task, make the resource management tighter so running out to get scrap was more critical, give him skill-based tools to assist and protect his buildings. Make him more like a TF2 Engineer and less like a Hanzo. It's entirely possible to make Torbjorn a skill-based character WITHOUT making him an aim-based character, the devs cannot see this.
Overwatch is CONSISTENTLY losing diversity of playstyle in order to cater to the eternally unsatisfied FPS general audience. It's like you said, I don't understand how the devs don't understand this. They don't even remember what the appeal of the game is.
Thanks genuinely such a good example to bring up, well done. Blizzard really seems to think making the game more simple and homogenous to every other shooter is the answer to dying player numbers, but gosh it feels like its just gonna kill it. I mean, the shield/armor changes to overhealth really makes me feel like the devs think we are babies mentally.
I think thats part of the issue with constantly adding new heros, to keep them fresh you constantly need new mechanics new creative ideas, its far easier to make a hero aim based.
"Eternally Unsatisfied FPS general Audience" God this is so true. I had fun once in 2003 with unreal tournament and I've been chasing that high ever since like a fucking heroin addict.
Now I don’t play overwatch, I’ve been playing it less and less ever since I played Team Fortress 2. Not only did it feel more fun but I felt like I got more respect as a support main.
The torbjorn and symmetra reworks along with how ignorant the play of the game system is to support players are shining examples of why overwatch isn’t very good (at least, currently) in my opinion.
Despite the fact that the game acts like it is the opposite to Team Fortress 2 (More emphasis on teamwork, serious, structured etc), it is just an arguably worse version of it.
You get praised for being selfishly bloodthirsty (Play of the Game), you can play as a bunch of unbelievably silly characters (An ape scientist, a hamster ball mech, a gamer in a mech, laser cowboy, edgy archer etc) and there are plenty of get out of prison free card abilities that ruins the whole order of things because instead of structuring your plan, you just hope that the gas mask guy doesn’t pull out an insta-stun hook or a can that refills half his health.
Lastly, I just want to talk about how not a lot of players in overwatch seem to respect the supporters and those who focused on the objective. I’ve lost count on all the times I’ve seen people give likes to the person who got some kills instead of the person who spent the whole game actually contributing to the objective or the person who took away like 40% of the team’s whole damage. And yet, I’ve seen plenty of people (myself included) get “thanks”s from people who were being supported by them in Team Fortress 2.
I want to like overwatch, I really do. I absolutely adore the idea of a team based shooter which is about teamwork and focus on objectives but overwatch (despite claiming to be that in the tin) just isn’t that.
So true, my first time playing symmetra I was amazed I never played a character like her before building mini bases and spawning my team in an fps world now it’s just hold laser until big shield
Slightly slowing the movement acceleration of everybody is probably a reason why many people reported aiming feeling off
I wish I knew this was a thing while I was playing the beta.. when I was playing as Ana I felt like HOT GARBAGE and it hurt, but playing as Zen I felt silky smooth (even though in OW1 I hate how janky my Zen settings felt, but my Ana felt amazing.) and my friends thought I was crazy for saying something felt weird about aiming.
I'd love to see someone test this. There's a lot of mythbusting channels out there, but personally I'd like to see Marblr look at this
and maybe thats why roadhog's hook combo felt less consistent. after hooking somebody, usually i walk forward for a tiny fraction of a second before shooting, for more consistent one-shots. even if roadhog does move forward longer to compensate for the later timing due to the slowed movement accel, the target's brief stun after being hooked might have worn off already. i'm fine with him not one-shotting / one-shotting less consistently, but i didn't realize there could be an actual reason for it, wo
@Marblr
@@sfbrickfilms3524 I see. Glad to have that cleared up.
6:10 man just basically predicted Mauga.
As a counterpoint to 4v4, I think 8v8 with two of each role would be very funny
Not really be competitive
there are 3 roles
Overwatch players when they try to do basic math
Newbies dont remember offensive/defensive/tank/support
@@willywanker6239 His point is that damage used to be 'attack' and 'defense', which in your metric of tank-damage-support would come out to be 2-4-2
Blizzard: "why don't people want to play tank or healer?"
Also Blizzard: *this*
I used to play dive tanks and healers in ow1 and i just became a dps playing in ow2 lol
Dude called out Mauga to a t in that analogy for player agency
I'm so happy to know I'm not the only one that thought that unifying Attack and Defence was a stupid move
I don´t understand why OW makes supporters just healers instead of giving them cool cc abilities, also there are way to many dps rework them into supports. Mei, Symmetra and Sombra have great abilities that could have made them supports. instead they took alot of them away and made them dps and buffed dps overall and released a new dps. Ofc dps role will still be the most popular and Q time will be stupid long, they needed 3 years for this stupid changes
I have to say, its pretty insulting that 2 years ago we got Echo, who was supposed to be a support, but was only made into a DPS because the devs were looking at the ramifications of her ult from a DPS player's perspective (that is real, that is a real thing), only for the second game to feature yet another DPS. Pretty evident where the dev's focus is...
They gave supports kool crowd control and support abilities, then the community complained very loudly.
I can see how OW1's natural gameplay let to grindier team fights, what with CC interruption punishing aggression, shields to dampen burst, and supports needing to be able to heal to help your team stay in those long fights, lest you ACTUALLY be able to die before both teams pressed Q.
Since OW2 is faster paced and helped facilitated play making and picks, I can see the possible of supports without healing existing now. The game is just different in the way where you can't need to be constantly suckling on a supports heals
Uh, if they give support cool ccs, dive tank like ball will just die over and over again
@@p.4lvv sonic boop, sleep dart, shield bash, whip shot; are these not cool?
I was playing ow with my friend. We were both Winston and Dva and I realized that we wouldn't be able to play tank together anymore after ow2 it made me sad.
Had that same moment with my buddy right before the Beta dropped. In a way it was lucky the beta didnt last forever so we got to go back to OW1 without the playerbase dying off, but that final day is approaching :(
Because Winston and DVA completely unless getting nerfed made the game totally unbalanced, I had friends I played tank with too, but it isn't about just me and him it is about the game as a whole and unless they nerfed tanks removing 1 of them was the only option. Tanks originally in games are meant to be weaker because they tank.
I miss open queue. Role queue is so dumb and killed the immense enjoyment Overwatch offered for me - it's such a drag playing with role queue on.
@@Henbot Good thing the game is somehow more unbalanced now.
3:50 holy shit "The Pathfinder treatment" LMAO I've never heard anyone talk about what happened to pathfinder but I love that I instantly got it
:D Finally, someone mentions it!! Feels like a trend at this point. :( why can't cool individual passives be left alone
@@setomarie ikr :( also lmfao when i saw that it's the first time I saw anyone mention what happened to pathfinder, I was in an apex phase last year before getting back into overwatch and I kinda thought that was weird that they changed it to a role passive
I'm so glad you mentioned 4v4 bc I no joke was thinking about 4v4 MINUTES before you mentioned it. I'd like to see that come to fruition, even if it's for experimental lol
Rather 8v8. Why? OW from the outside looking in is not a serious shooter, rather, arena-like. I do believe some heros should be in a 4th class (tactical; hero's who has more battle awareness tools, such as sensory, traps, sealth, or recon tools. like sombra; having the ability to hack & cloak. widow; long range sniper with recon devices. & torburn; cover-fire turret tyst doubles as a sensory tool.) So if we make it a 8v8, you can track what's going on within the mist of battle.
I'm already sad that I'm gonna have 1 less friend to play ow with, 4 would be too little imo
Yh
@@lc5957 that's a hot take and I do respect it. I think in overwatch 2 they should add a lot of new things. Maybe an 8v8, some 4v4 action (similar to team deathmatch in the arcade). A fourth class would be fair just because flankers and snipers exist. From what I've seen in the two betas I've played, they've added so many changes so who knows if they take their fans advice on what to add. Even if it's seasonal or arcade.
@@garar5613 I do respect that, and I was kinda sad about the 5v5 change at first, but I think this could work. Like I said in another reply, I think 4v4 would be interesting to see more often in overwatch. there is team deathmatch in arcade, but arcade isn't something I play unless I play with friends. It feels a little too arcade-y. I'd like to see a tactical team deathmatch in the future. Like I said, even if it's experimental just to see how that would pan out.
Aged like fine wine.
As a OW1 Support main, I won't play support anymore in OW2 which is a shame for my Golden Guns but now being chased by 20% faster dps and without a second tank maybe helping me it will feel giga shit playing my favs, Anna and Zen.
I love the idea of Tanks being chad raidbosses, new Orisa and JunkerQueen look like absolute monsters and a blast to play so I will just switch to tank
In the second beta they removed the movement speed passive
They removed the dps speed passive weeks ago. The new passive is dps keep a small amount of ult charge when changing heroes.
Brogan thank God
Average support main intelligence
that sounds like bad support problems. I wish a dps would try to 1v1 me they gonna be in the spawn room regretting they life choices
Did this guy predict maugas launch by trying to imagine the worst designed tank possible? Lmao
I honestly felt like I was being gaslighted about this. Streamers and their fanbases were jizzing so hard over 5v5 and claiming they couldnt even play OW1 anymore because of how much more fun they were having in 2. And the whole time my wife and I were playing both betas we were like, "This feels like shit. Why did they do this?". The fights last seconds and the team synergy just feels like garbage. Im glad to see we weren't alone.
OW1 had no reworks and no new heroes for YEARS, that's why everyone is so hyped about OW2. People were so desperate for change, that any change was to be perceived as a good one. They literally just had to deliver content, yet they failed.
This kind of gets to the core of what I was saying in my long post. As for why its solely a queue time thing. the Rationale being it doesn't matter if you have a shitty experience, if it can be quickly replaced with a good one. But that doesn't change the fact that your bad experiences are way more frequent now than in the past to due a constricted pool, the variance is so high right now. This coupled with >10minute queue times, dps queue is a massive gamble b/c 1/3 games programmed to be challenging. if You've only got 1 hour, and you're dps. you might get 2 games. 1 bad one. and one good one that lasts 40 minutes, but now you've got to go and you ruin a good game for 11 other people. and this vicious circle is plaguing queue right now. its an almost 2 to 1 ratio of dps chars to tank chars. That and blizz may be too good at designing characters that connect. Jeff 1.0 said he really underestimated 1 tricks and mains, if you're in that category which the elo system pushes btw, odds are you're gonna be a dps main. These Quality of Life metrics really matter to a game. also the pop of tank exclusive mains is really small. Every tank and heal has a pocket dps pick, but very few heal and dps mains have a pocket tank pick.
@@alandominguez6346 it's like we COULD have excellent queue times if blizzard made exclusively tanks and supports for like 2 years to bring them up to 3/4 of the dps roster, and/or dps players would just pick something else for once. but here we are, in overwatch 1.5 where you win fights by leaving your team in the dust and out-damaging the enemy
@@mahks-pectith3179 well they had a key misunderstanding, with the split defense/offense roles at the beginning, that's a correct change imo, also they misunderstood sym, who went through 3 reworks, which in turn influenced sombra, Doom was pretty hype too, and it was an easy capitalization of user enthusiasm. I understand its way harder to design a tank. Thinking about space, and zoning. They kind of lucked out with Sigma and the designers brilliance. I understand design space is tight around area control characters. ball is a mess character wise but mechanically fills a nice role. Cut their designers loose. It seems more like mechanics looking for form rather than character concepts seeking implementation. Cart and point manipulation seem interesting, being born from WC3 escort maps. Maybe the PVE stuff will jog a character loose. I expect a big raid map soon.
@@f0kes32 the thing people don't realize is that the same will happen again in overwatch 2.
blizzard is literally one of the worst companies at supporting their games with fast updates.
even in world of Warcraft where you pay every month, patches have gone from 3-4 months cycle to 8-10 months cycle.
compare that to PoE/fortnite or league of legends, the latter of which, for example which adds new champions every 2-3 months, make balance changes every 1-2 months and every year they make massive rework to the map, dragons, items and add whole new mechanics.
even now if you look at the content roadmap for OW2, they have 1 new hero and 1 new map 2 months after launch and then after that they just put "future updates", because my guess is they won't be able to deliver even 1 new champion and 1 map every 2 months post launch
Are we all just going to ignore the Daganaronpa background music? What a great game.
Best game series there is
As a newer tank player (6 months since I started) I feel like I'm being punished for liking the tank role [in Overwatch 2]. They made it more like a super dps role and I never wanted that. I liked they synergy that tanks brought to their team. Like you said, "All they do is want to help." And that is why I love the tank role in a nutshell, the guy that got me into Overwatch is also a tank player. So you can imagine my disappointment when ever I heard 5v5 was gonna take out a tank. No more Rien/Zarya, No more Winston/Dva, or no Ball/Dva, everything that made the game fun for me is missing. The two new Tanks that OW2 released would be amazing for my enjoyment as a tank player. The Orisa rework would be super fun with Sigma, Doomfist with Ball would also be fun, Junker Queen and Hog may not be fun but it would be funny. It just not the same anymore without a second tank, what magic was left is now gone. To me if they removed the cc and gave Orisa her rework OW1 would be just as fun and even better than 2. The tank players I look up to like Space don't really have a place to go anymore, you can even see it OWL. I just wish they never gave up the second Tank.
With the direction Blizzard is going, I feel like Overwatch is just going to feel like a worse version of Valorant because all they're doing now is pampering to the DPS players - and mind you I'm a DPS main, yet even I'm upset at the way they're handling this.
I never wanted Overwatch to feel like Valorant or Apex; I wanted it to feel like Overwatch, a hybrid of FPS and MOBA with a variety of hero options for all roles like it did in the past. I just hope they realise that they need to start treating not only DPS, but also the Tanks and Supports with the equal amount of care.
I don't exactly understand what you mean, all roles are strong, supports are strong having their own passive to heal and some of them doing lots of damage holding their own against dps in certain situations, tanks are beefy as hell and are strong, ult charge reduction is really good and dps are strong being the main source of damage, either following up tanks or playing on their own, I don't think dps are that strong, as a matter of fact I think supports are strongest, but I don't think there is a large difference in carry potential
@@alpha_ow5523 I think he meant that overwatch is focussing way more on dps, cause they just added another dps and there are nearly as many dps characters as tank and supports combined
Valorant is Chinese counter strike, it sucks.
@@alpha_ow5523 I mean, healers and tanks are basically DPS just with extra abilities and in the case of a tank, higher healthpool. The only tanks you can call actual tanks are Reinhardt, Winston and D.va, because they negate damage while only doing little damage themselves.
This modern obsession with every game, within every scenario, within every moment, bending over backwards to literally hand you the opportunity to feel like a god, just to make cool individual moments that can be easily marketed to a group of spectators that watch it like any other sport.. is the definition of removing all agency from games, and, worse still, removing the feeling of fun that the average player gets from simply spending time playing the game, regardless whether they win or lose. The focus on everything but fun is ruining the video game medium. I agree with almost everything you've said, save for the 4v4 mode-- which, admittedly would match Blizzards modern design arguments more, but, I much prefer your point of returning to no limits, which is the ultimate soul of the game's original inception.
they literally hire psychologists to come in and give us the best dopamine dump they can. it's shameful. all in the name of making you spend more money.
I think part of what makes Overwatch so frustrating to play sometimes is that you can be vibing as a healer and one of your DPS gets one shot from across the map and your team gets collapsed on in a 6v5. You had zero input into that, and while yes, you can do your absolute best to flip the fight, the odds are still astronomically stacked against you for something you had no part in. The amount of times I have to say “Don’t poke” to a DPS with full ult charge on defence just to prevent them from throwing the game is maddening lol
the issue is its even worse now cause ur dps can still be sniped and now its a 5v4. the dps are still just as suicidal and now you have one less tank to actually help you or atleast peel off some of the damage.
Dps can now just charge into the backline and kill you even worse than in the 6v6
@@Memelord-md5hs it’s not worse though, them not having a 6th player to help deal more damage, block more damage and/or throw another stun at you makes it easier to turn the game around if your team or yourself starts playing well, reverting back to 6v6 makes this worse, I’m sick of the whole “it’s a team game” argument because half the time your team isn’t acting like they’re part of the team anyway, relying on random players in a game where you want to win is unhealthy for the game and player base which is why games like overwatch and league have incredibly toxic player bases and people in ranks that they shouldn’t be because of boosting or because they have terrible luck, comp is not like the overwatch league where you’re playing with and against consistently good players who use comms, are coordinated and also have a coach to help them and it never will be
Rewarding a player for doing more instead of having a better team is healthy and 5v5 allows for more individual impact
Yeah the problem there is snipers. Widow and Hanzo having the ability to delete heroes instantly from across the map? All good here. Doomfist putting himself on the frontline with his massive hitbox and needing a wall to "one-shot" (not even) a hero? Ridiculous!
@@IssDiddy Why not just play another game though? The game you are looking for already exists most likely, why try and homogenize a game that was at least designed for team play?
@@rakkatytam I've played ow1 once since the first beta and didn't enjoy it at all, ow2 is far more enjoyable, I don't play other games because the only one close to ow is paladins which lacks polish and plays differently, valorant is nothing like ow and neither is league
overwatch has an identity problem and that's balancing around sweaty competitive players and casual players.
but yeah you hit the nail on the head saying it's an experiment trying to force strangers to play as a team.
that's why OW2 is probably better overall as you have less teamwork to worry about which is better for the solo qeue experience.
but teamwork is kinda what overwatch was about arguably, it's just that it doesn't work with strangers.
however the treatment of the different roles is very odd even in OW2
Teamwork was the dream but the reality of ranked que was far different 99% of the time. Even with friends y'all would just end up bitching when you lose or nobody owning their mistakes etc. Most people can't handle teamwork.
@@stillnotchill2560 i don't think that's true, people are much more understanding of their friends and is able to better shrug of losses together than a team of strangers.
as for teamwork you're gonna have familiarity with friends, it's not gonna be a surprise who does well and who is just "trying out a new character" to you.
@@bobxbaker issue is overwatch doesn't incentives team work. People will never work together unless there is a reason to
@@deezboyeed6764 it's not that they don't try, it's just an excercise in frustration when things are that fast and that chaotic and so the first thing that gets tossed out the window is teamwork because it feels a bit pointless when things just happen regardless if you were prepared for it or not.
At the end of the day I still think heroes are the heartbeat and lifeblood of the game and I think the game is dying bc they stopped making them. 3 new heroes is pretty disappointing for the release of a sequel game. Imagine a new smash bros with 3 new characters. Really makes it feel like a rushed DLC and makes you wonder what they have been doing.
That's because the actual sequel will not be the PvP but the PvE portion of the game, which is what they have been working on all this time and why it will be released later than the relatively small content update we get for PvP in October. It's obvious that their entire idea behind even doing an Overwatch 2 instead of a mere dlc drop was to focus on a fully-fledged story mode with hero missions, hero progression and talent trees. They simply miscalculated big time when they basically abandoned OW1 during that time all the while Covid and the massive internal scandals at Blizzard severely hindered development. So they decided to decouple PvP from PvE and get us new PvP content sooner as part of their seasonal release strategy.
This is not an excuse in the slightest, just an explanation as to why OW 2 seems to be not particularly coherent and somehow lacking during the Beta and probably even when it comes out in october. It will take until next year when PvE gets released that it will become the true sequel that they promised us.
Come to paladins my boi 😎
@@presentprogressive8780 lol, so the OW team betrayed their competitive player base, to make entirely different game? And now we are supposed to be happy?
@@f0kes32 They took your money and built a cage for the casuals. Its one of the best things they could do. Jeff1.0 said gold weapons were a mistake b/c they were locked to comp, and the fashionwatch quickplayers all flocked to comp queues to get the shinies. They're still around but not nearly as bad as before. Now its just the two digit IQs
If you want to see what it looks like when a hero shooter focuses on heroes, look at paladins. I think a balance between bug fixes, heroes, maps, and modes is the best thing. Overwatch crushes in the bug department, but hasn't really released many new maps or heroes. Though, considering they added the workshop mode thing, they basically win by default when it comes to modes. Paladins is insane in the hero department, but lacks everywhere else. Basically only two modes, been forever since we got a new map, and the game is still buggy. But the heroes are quite good. There's so much customization with the card system, and even if some character concepts are stolen, I feel like it still does neat stuff with it.
i like how the logic of reducing the amount of players to increase player agency, since couldn't you therefore argue 1v1 to be the best gamemode
Overwatch 6 in 2050 is just 1v1 lol. Can't blame your team anymore now can ya
I just use this point because bliz does, but yes, just removing characters and saying its making the game better for player agency is silly. Though, 5v5 feels like the worst of both worlds: the roles are still imbalanced, you could remove more to have more player agency, and changing it in the first place already is aggravating for OW players
@@setomarie wasn't meant as a dig at you, more that while player agency is a good thing to have adding more of it isn't inherently good since you also have to see what you lose in the changes planned so bliz just saying it'll increase player agency isn't a very helpful descriptor
I still think the most fun I had with overwatch was when everyone could be whoever they wanted including character dupes
Every time No Limits Competitive comes out, it is my favorite mode. It truly is the best way to play OW
Literally had multiple games ruined when everyone could just go Winston or DVA especially in competitive that you just instantly lost sudden death or matches
Bruh the danganronpa music in the background fits perfectly with video
Creator of this video: „blizz, you do keep talking about cc for a while haven’t you..“
*danganronpa trial argument music starts playing*
Oh boy do I have some more trial music for you
Subbed for the content up to 2:00 - just found the small controlled rant quite amusing lmao. Great video! Can see this channel growing quickly :D
Glad you like it! My specialty happens to be ranting... which is funny given half of these comments are like "this is a rant not an analysis" but i have it in a playlist called "rants"... BUT glad you appreciate my ranting :D
Yes! Finally a video on this! Ive been saying it since Echo came out, the game is just turning into a colorful CoD. It's spiraling into a dps singularity and will eventually be an inferior version of every other shooter out there. The game's strength was always its use of varied abilities, roles, health pools, and objectives in an fps setting. Blizzard seems to so desperately want to get away from that and for what? All it will do is make their game feel like the same old boring shooter that gets put out every year. Ive played both betas for ow 1.5 (it doesnt deserve to be called ow2) and that clip of owl where winstpn gets shredded in 0.5 sec is exactly how it felt. Just a dps power trip fantasy land. I can only hope one day 6v6 is reinstated and dps dont get all the love and attention 24/7
-Posts a 30 minute rant video
-gets 35k views
-Leaves and doesnt post anything for half a year
GIGACHAD
See you again in another few months
Overwatch 2. We are improving queue times by deleting an offtank and no way those off tank players will go to dps making the queue times worse. Everyone I currently play Overwatch with will not be playing 2
then you're not gonna be playing anything at all.
Side note that a channel with 400~ish subs getting 40k+ views is very impressive so kudos
I'm just done with the game, tbh. Being a tank main was a miserable experience most of the time, and through the years it's only gotten worse and worse. Removing one tank entirely was the signal for me that I was no longer welcome in the game, so I got the clue and left definitely, and when Junker Queen was anounced it was crystal clear why: no tanks, only dps.
Rest now, Tank brother. Await better days. I admire your strength in leaving.
I quit OW in 2017 when they changed Quick Play to follow the Competitive format (champ lockouts, heavier focus on being the "right" role). Not because I hated the game, but because I couldn't play the way I wanted to. I was not interested in eSports. I'd just stopped working with a company on another prominent title that ALSO grew an eSports tumor, and wanted nothing more of excessively competitive gameplay. Old Quick Play was fun. It was enjoyable. It was the "Team Fortress 3" that people were saying OW was going to be: A fun game you could play casually or play competitively. But when it started taking 5~10 minutes to queue into Anything Goes, the replacement for old QP (which I was happy to use), I decided I wasn't going to waste my time waiting for the game to let me play, and the game was clearly telling me it was not interested in me.
A couple of years later, I was considering returning to Overwatch, only to find out that they had implemented a completely dipshit mechanic of Role Queue: The enforcement of a metagame. A solid structure where you have to color inside the lines. Sure, you can pick the color you use, but you would be explicitly forbidden from coloring outside your chosen box. The fact that queue times for more popular roles were longer was just the cherry on top. So, I uninstalled OW for the second time, and will not return to PvP. Even if OW2 comes out and I choose to play it, it will be exclusively Co-Op PvE.
The "eSports First" mentality has been a blight upon this game and its design, and a blight on the industry in general.
Stop trying to make every game focused on a leaderboard or achivement.
Let people have fun in games again without getting punished by Timmy On Twitch because he has to be the best or his dad won't come home with the milk.
Let games be games again, and not jobs in their own right.
... But classic quick play has always been there to play. I literally always pick that one.
Games are a very profitable business, blizzard can't just leave that juicy money on the table!
Funny enough I completely disagree and think catering to casuals like yourself ruined the competitive integrity of the game and that's why it failed. Why learn a skill based hero like genji (most played hero in the game) when I can play Moira, mercy and brig and win games without turning on my monitor? Also, open que quick play or even ranked was absolute cancer with everyone locking DPS and one guy playing rein and MAYBE someone goes mercy to heal. Cannot count the number of times I played ranked with literally 5 DPS and guess what, you don't actually get to even play the game because you just get shit on by the enemy who actually played tanks and healers, so you just end up playing respawn simulator.
@@calcutlass he has no idea what he's talking about, we shouldn't waste our breath.
To call this a reenvisonment is giving them too much credit. It’s a dlc and an update
@SetoMarie The four role and four person team concept is s great idea.
Especially if we revisit what a Defensive Role could be instead of just one more suited to be on the defending side of a match.
If we consider older abilities of some of the Defence chatacters, like Sym's Shield Buff and Torb's Armour Buff or Mei's CC and lane control abilities, we get a fairly clear idea that these heroes could be the CC/Buffer role many other heroes dip their toes into.
The sort of Role that is more intrinsically about Defending the Offence and Support roles with CC (Freezes, Stuns, knockback, etc), Buffs (Movement, anti-CC and protection types) and Area denial & Terrain manipulation type abilities (Turrets, Ice walls etc).
Where as the Offence Role is all about Attacking, their own damage output and potentially even improving the damage the rest of the team can do with their abilities. Movement really shouldn't be a core part of their Role in General, some Offence heroes need it as Flanker types but it's antithetical for the likes of Bastion for example (I know I know, he was originally a Defence Hero, bad example).
The 4v4 concept could extend to things like two teams of 4 Vs two other teams of 4, sort of a compartmentalised 8v8 where each 4v4 match up has a separate objective to the other. Allied Teams can work together where their objectives overlap location, but are more constrained to their own where the objectives are seperated.
Even a straight up 8v8 or 12v12 mode that's scaled more towards a 'War' rather than squad/fireteam sized skirmishes.
I would say 8v8 would be a good basis, having 2 of each Role allowing for a MBT & a Brawler Tank, a Frontline & Flanker Offence, a Player focused & Terrain focused Defender and the Healer & CoD (Cleric of Death, D&D reference) Support.
Or even a mix of all one sort and none of the other, essentially allowing for more flexible but still very viable team comps overall.
I like the creativity here. Honestly I feel like there is a lot of room to work with creatively even within the confines of the design philosophy Bliz has, but they don't really stick to it for some reason. I love your view of the Defense and Offense roles specifically tho. The split really can create a branching focus for the roles. Idk why some people seem to think these heroes aren't allowed to change. Hell, if they wanted to be lazy, they could literally just use the 2 dps passives they've had so far and split them up, but again, I think there's room for creativity
They already said higher than 6 v 6 and the engine couldn't handle it. The whole idea of defense role falls apart when they do more damage than the regular DPS and had higher HP. By the most basic of game design higher damage should have weaknesses, OW was designed with many heroes that should have had weaknesses to compensate for the higher capabilities considering game design done that for decades.
@@Henbot
Really? I didn't know their engine was approaching being outdated. Maybe they should have developed a new engine with better movement, but that would be an unreasonable amount of work for a ftp game, I guess
Thank God you pointed out how dumb the dps passive is. I hate it! Why does blizzard hate tanks and supports? Why are dps the only ones allowed to have fun?!
the way it was dps and tanks post-every buff ever shitting on support for not liking the sudden, abrupt, and uncomfortable rising of supports skill floor. Like tanks are finally getting to have fun, when will supports get that???
Imo, Blizzard is slowly killing what made overwatch such a unique and great game. Neglecting its niche n dedicated player base while trying to please the majority that doesn't want to learn how this game works (We can all agree that those players are mostly dmg one trick) and its really sad. I played ow2 beta and I had some fun but it wasn't the fun the original ow could give me with effort, game sens and teamplay. My matches were even more decided by how good my dmg teammates are and all that tdm/brawl vibes was all I could enjoy, which is fun when you just want to chill in arcade but sad when you are going in comp for more serious business.
Honestly, I'm hyped about ow2 and the mass of new content that will come up (even if I wished for more new champ at release) but I'm seriously worried about what will that game become if they keep changing it for the "better" they seems to believe in.
Well they make the money, dps mains are the ones who buy new accounts constantly. Wouldn't surprise me if the no of dpsplayers is half what they have.
The new mode is the only thing bringing me back.
@@AtomicSlugg 'i hated over reliance on my team' aka i dont want to play team games
I'm glad you posted this to the OW forums! I feel like I was being gaslit by other youtube reviews. The healer passive absolutely reduces player agency! Every support literally already had a way to heal themselves (Mercy's passives, Moira's orb / primary fire, Zen's shield health), and in Ana's case that self heal balanced the power of her anti-nade since she had to choose if using it for self-heal was worth not being able to burst heal. Now she can just chuck it. The passives are so bad.
❤️
I'll keep giving my honest opinions and making sure someone actually looks at it from a logical standpoint
Ok but let’s not forget that back then supports had a second tank to help peel and maps that didn’t allow for the enemy to so easily get to the them. Supports are still dying a lot more on average in OW2 despite the new passive just so you know.
This comment didnt age well because now supports are strong
Prima - Mghrbiss / Strong doesn’t = good. Look at OW1, the tank role was the most broken role in the game yet tanks were still dying constantly and super unfun to play since there was so much CC in the game. Now it’s the same for supports, they’re broken when they can play the game, but they’re still dying constantly and not fun to play bc they can’t hold their ground in a 1v1 or when they’re getting dove on.
I played Overwatch consistently from release until after Doomfist came out. A full year. I really liked the game when it came out but it was soon evident that all the devs wanted to do was force the game and players down a stricter and stricter road of competitive play. IMO there was no reason to add role lock to quickplay. You couldn't even try out a new hero anymore because of all the instalocking. Balance changes also clearly limited hype "hero" moments for more consistent play (looking at Mercy). The Devs clearly were aiming for competitive balance over fun. Even now look at everyone's clear obsession with rank, like you can't have an opinion if you don't play competitive and aren't highly ranked. You yourself seem to be a product of this direction. This insistence by the devs either drives every player into this hamster will of competition or drives them away completely.
I'm glad you mentioned that role-lock thing, but nowadays I'm certain the majority of Overwatch players are only concerned with competitive play. So, I doubt a casual and fun spirit can return to the game, and Blizzard created that division in the playerbase themselves. This self-selected player base, is now vastly different from the original playerbase. I still think competitive and casual play can exist side-by-side (TF2 for instance). A few games have pulled it off but the key issue is player have to decide it for themselves.
unfortunately this is the ow community we're talking about and if there's one thing we can agree on it's that we can't agree on anything
Personally I believe role lock isn't needed for a competitive world, and striking a balance between the two is possible, but for the OW devs, maybe they just really can't do it. Which is sad given how much fun the game is with more freedom. "Self-selected player base" is a genius term, genuinely feels like that's kinda the direction of OW2, and OW fans aren't super happy about that.
The majority of the player base yes is ranked you can't have a competitive game that doesn't have rules? Football has a ruleset and set up because you must make something fair. Also, it was barely fun in some games without role select especially in ranked because heroes were so designed not to be universally balanced you would always have select heroes becoming the strong and players stuck with their picks which also went against the original design of it being picked and counter especially when in the end that didn't even work consistently especially because teams didn't do it. Tf2 died, no one plays that anymore competitively, and it never got big competitively whilst Valorant, CS and LoL all are and other strategy games because they have refined rules because you have to be a competitive sport. People forget that originally Blizzard didn't want a competitive ladder to be entered without you being in a six stack, but the player base demanded they open it up and the social experiment of 6 strangers just by default working together failed (hell we have seen even pro teams barely work together sometimes) partly because of the game is just too fast-paced and complicated.
QP also needed a role select or balancing because they used the QP stats as backup data if you didn't play much ranked when you got to ranked but without Role Select it was completely an utter inaccurate mess of abilities. They made the decision yes to become more competitive with OWL and ranked, but that was only because of what the player base wanted but as soon as you become competitive or competition you need structure and rules when the game was designed without any rules and even Kaplan said he couldn't play no limits anymore when he used to defend it. OW was doomed to fail because it is a game that was trying to be casual and competitive and no one ever takes it seriously as a competitive game outside OW, and it made the heroes so diverse that players literally couldn't play other heroes as well or wanted too and then with the drive for competition you needed rules and more rules in design. The FPS route is what they have deemed and the player base that sticks with them consistently so of course they will work for them.
@@Henbot I might not reply to all your points but I generally get what you're saying. I don't think I disagree much at all.
I too think a competitive ruleset is necessary for competitive play or would be necessary eventually. My big problem is how it was forced on the community. I get they had to do something though. Maybe it was the only way.
Maybe TF2 was a bad example, but take smash bros. That game has lasted forever because it shares similarities to a lot of sports. It was a casual game that slowly developed a competitive ruleset over time and most important of all it was developed form the bottom - up
On the other hand Overwatch's competitive ruleset was pushed from the top. The top - down ruleset was then quickly pushed on all levels of play, not just OWL and ranked. I believed this hampered the development and longevity of the game and its player base.
Your video is as relevant as ever now 😂
You are a precious person. Thank you for watching my stuff
No one in these comments should ever be game devs
removing the second tank also means certain ult combos are simply impossible now
this is by far the worst take, what tanks are combo-ing ults? literally just rein and dva? most of them are so gimmicky and not worth usinf both at the same time
@@xertiio maybe not ults, but zarya rein is an incredible combo. that back and forth movement and feeling of the other tank was satisfying.
@@xertiio well, you won't be reckoning through grav, that's for sure
@@f0kes32 sure ig but 2 tanks slow the game soooo much so its a good trade imo
Tank synergies are the most fun part of the game and a big part of why I love playing tank. The way the different defensive abilities multiply the level of aggression other tanks can have make it so rewarding to work closely with the other tank, and end up enabling DPS immensely.
Sigma Rein is a great example, because you can rotate shields so that while the rein is blocking and pushing sigma can shoot to pressure other tanks and when rein gets in swinging distance sigma can use his shield and his absorption ability to allow rein to counter their rein safely.
This line of thought applies to zarya-rein, sigma-zarya, dva-rein, sigma-winston, winston-zarya, etc. The ability to use cooldowns to massively increase the aggression your co-tank can have is so rewarding, far more than any DPS and support duo which end up boiling down to basic target priority and mechanical aim, lacking the very enthralling positional warfare that tanks engage in.
The loss of the tank duo means the loss of the most thoughtful part of team co-ordination. I mean except for shit like sigma orisa but that existing is a worthy tradeoff and honestly not that big of a deal in my experience anyways.
Totally agree!
I feel so alienated in OW2, that I find myself going back OW1 whenever the betas come out. Legit got so frustrated when they announced 5v5 and cannibalized off-tank, my favorite role. Now it feels like zarya and D.Va have to play as a main tank, which is just the worst.
Also, fun fact, Jeff Kaplan said in an interview that they were originally going to lock the defense and offense roles into their respective teams on the map (outside of control), so the roles would stay unique and split, but everyone else pitched a fit about role queue, so that's what happened.
God, what could have been...
I liked how you explained how support self healing was bad.
do not worry OW 3 will be 4v4, with 1 tank and support and 2 dps
I'd say lets skip all the middle phases and make it 1v1, oh wait we have death match already, my bad my bad hehe
Overwatch 6 pog
Overwatch 2 has different game design and this is the only reason I say it really earned the title of 2 it isn’t being built around the same ideas and (especially for a game that gets continuous updates) is a very big deal
I say keep it 5v5 but make the 5th player a flex that can be any of the 4 roles
then he just plays tank or support (depending if flex is a support player previously)
I would normally agree with this but that just means it would favor double shields over basically everything else anyway.
This would work for other games just not OW for this to work.they would have to redesign every character
I play lot different hero shooter and ow is the only game that has this problems paladins is the closest to ow and they never had role queue since how the game mechnices and characters designs are there can do this without fear and never once had a meta as bad as goats some did try goats meta and we end up calling it pirates since is was like a knockoff version of goats since paladins game design and characters there was a lot way to counter a team of all tanks
2 tanks 1 dps 2 healers to ez win
@@ghoulbuster1 nah the issue with the the 2 thanks are what makes the feel bullet spongey
keep it up bud, just watched both of your vids and love them. I love hearing thought out opinions on the state of overwatch.
a lot of unique perspectives i hadn't considered before! great video :)
Step 1: good title and thumbnail
Step 2: nothing
This video has about much content as overwatch lol
I want overwatch from 2017 back. Simpler roster, less complaining, no role lock, none of that bs. I was too young to truly appreciate the game at the time, but now more than ever i would give anything to have it back.
I feel like the "attack" and "defense" roles argument dies REALLY quickly when one remembers Doomfist was a defense hero for a short time...
Doomfist... is a defense hero though? He's a great counter dive.
@@kopshi doomfist is a roamer
Yeah, but he’s a tank now lol
He was an attack hero on release, I don’t see the point in lying about that.
@@kopshi He’s not, he’s a dive hero and always was. He was never in the defence category, nor was he ever played defensively.
You make some points here and there, but between all the obnoxious backhanded insults to the audience and the frenetic structure, this is one heck of an unwatchable video. I'm bowing out not even halfway through.
Wholeheartedly agreed, this was the same experience with me - I'm so thankful I'm not the only one who felt this way and had this exact criticism. You hit the nail on the head - thank you.
I need to watch this with the boys 120 secs in and I’m dead
SetoMarie, nice video. I give you the official *based* acknowledgement
I stopped playing the game a very long time ago, even though I had been there since day 1. A 4v4 version of the game with defense and offense re-seperated would be a tempting game to return to.
I remember one of the last times I played the game, probably around 2019, after losing my diamond and plat rank, stuck in a comp match feeling like there was nothing I could do to improve the situation while also being yelled at over coms for my pick. I honestly cried, because I just couldn't do anything. It taught me to stop playing games that I was playing out of obligation or solely a need to improve without ever having any fun.
they fixed that in overwatch 2, your single plays matter 100x more and its fun because of it. If you suck and really need super coordination to play then overwatch 2 is going to be a hard time. But if you can play the game, understand the mechanics and how each hero works alone, and stopped because teammates make it unfun when u were FORCED to co-ordinate just for it to not even go well, then overwatch 2 is something you should try.
It's not hard to solo queue out of diamond
@@Pool.bruv23 and thats not what we are talking about, you can trust the other players in diamond to be able to hit shots and do set ups. Elo hell is gold and below, where you require the luck of having 5 other people that can hopefully hit something, but most of the time they cant hit anything. PLAtinum has its times too when people just want to stand there anot not push because choke fighting with no push is platinum gameplay. Also let me guess, you play roadhog and mercy? cuz you can practically cheat your way to diamond with how little sr you lose and how much you gain playing them based on their mecahnics and how sr calcuator works. Hell there was a point where you could lose your way up there....
@@saber1992 I am a 4.2 tracer/echo player.
My point is that complaining about teammates from stopping you from climbing is redundant. If you are good enough you will climb, I have solo queued like 4 accounts to high masters just this season
@@Pool.bruv23 good for you, thats nice. Now drop to bronze legitimately and fight your way out and then go to say what your saying. Everyone that has done it, understands that elo hell is a thing, top 500 players agree its a thing, why do you think none of them want to placed anywhere near gold when they do an education x-grand masters video, its because its hell to get out of. so your point is redundant. It doesnt matter how high you are, it matters how low you've been, and how long youre in it, the SR system is fucked for those that arent willing to grind every day for ages. Those first 25 levels are secretly matchmaking you for comp and im sure you place right into diamond or above, on top of that your aim is so good, the system wont place you down there. Congrats. want a cookie?
As a tank player...free to play is the last straw. Free players will bring in bad DPS who think this is COD and no more will I enjoy being a tank. 90% of the beta I had all the top medals and had to carry with my healers to get anywhere.
How was Paladins more successful in balancing and fun than Overwatch? They just added anything into the game knowing they will add a new character later that will balance it again. Fucking Paladins that is free and low budget had WAY better gameplay. All roles were fun no matter what class you choose
I actually haven't tried Paladins, which is dumb given I really enjoyed Smite. Is it better?
@@setomarie To a certain extent. The characters fun as heck and are fantasy based so magic gets crazy. However, there's a bigger learning curve with the cards system to master a hero.
That being said however, the hitboxes are bigger with a slower gameplay than overwatch so it feels...easier to get kills. That never discouraged me though because the abilities were so fun. All roles feel balanced
I'm a 4520 peak main tank that recently returned to the game, and I'd be lying if I said your point about it being harder to go pro as a tank now never crossed my mind. It's actually kinda scary for me because I am grinding again and doing really well on improvement. I'm gonna miss my off tank.
Damn, that's high, you've got my peak beat by almost 200, impressive. Ya, I think most players don't consider that, which is sad cuz that's kinda what OW has been touted as, a cool game where if you improve enough, you can go pro, and every skillset has their own area of the game.... guess ours just isn't Bliz's favorite child :(
@@setomarie You're probably better now. I quit in 2019 when I graduated high school and that peak was season 7 in dive meta. Came back after three years and I've climbed 300 SR so far from mid diamond on a former smurf.
Yeah I have mixed feelings about the one tank. I literally dream about being in OWL most nights and I hate that I have yet another hurdle.
Feedback on your video essay style:
Don't insult your audience.
Your audio is peaking. Just make your mic have a lower gain level.
You make too many jokes, it's better to have less that are more focused
Be more objective. Don't be hyperbolic or overly negative.
(Just my opinion u can do what u want)
Insulting your audience is great if it's done truthfully and not out of emotional outburst. I recall watching a youtuber do that in the vein of a fair criticism of common errors people make and appreciating the video all the more for the value it can provide mankind and the world as a whole.
Ummm genji has been faster since OW 1
overwatch needs to release a dozen tank/support heroes
that would genuinely be so rad, but I really doubt its gonna happen. Its funny that they have had the problem of "why does everyone wanna play dps? shooting things must just be more fun" yes sure, but kinda helps that they have so many heroes
My issue with the game being 5v5 or even 4v4 is that there's a lot of heroes that aren't meant to fit the same roles. If there was only one support on a team, that would essentially make heroes like Zenyatta unviable, as his healing potential outside of his ult is comparable to the healing potential of a poorly placed band-aid that has the wound partially exposed. removing the amount of possible different playstyles competing in each match would also remove the ability to challenge "the meta" and the people who will insult and report you if you don't religiously do as it commands.
Agreed. The only way this concept works (4v4) is if you double it to 8v8. This would ensure flexibility in each of the four established roles as well as provide much needed meta diversity in each role. The issue with 8v8 is that it becomes uncoordinatable, impossible for a player to track and dissolves into an absolute mess. Unfortunately, 6v6 was just a great number, not too many to lose track of but enough to allow variety in playstyle. Also tanks in 5v5 become super counterable with only one on the field and no second to cover the first ones flaws. Imagining going to a 4v4 seems ridiculous. Supports are struggling already, taking away one would mean the remainder is a HUGE target. You'd spend the whole game dodging.
i wouldnt want zen as a healer in 4v4, he would be a flex pick like sym
New tank passive is a big buff because it means that dps can't just eternally poke tanks and get ults every 5 seconds, while the same is true for supports it definitely adds more player agency because you don't have to rely on a support healing and supporting you with ult to balance out the flanking pocketed solider with tac visor every 30 seconds, I can't say much about the brig changes because I don't play her however I'd like if she wasn't as strong as she is in ow1 because she makes flankers too tanky and she makes zen impossible to kill, however I will say that for tanks I feel like it's harder to deal with a mercy dps duo or literally do anything at all without a main tank
This video aged like milk
overwatch 2 beta just feels like valorant with respawns. if i wanted to play valorant i wouldve just done that instead of playing overwatch i really dont understand why ow2 devs are trying to play like every other shooter game the whole draw to ow was that it was something completely new (ignoring the existence of paladins)
Ow2 is nothing like Val lmao
I mean unless there was an update where 76 could oneshot every squishy, aswell as Reaper, Junkrat etc
Yeah it doesn’t feel like ow at all. The game has a massive problem with the low TTK. They went from one extreme to the other and it’s terrible. Ow2 needs a middle ground from ow1 and how the beta was
@@Cruxis_Angel You're not gonna die instantly when you're pocketed lmao
It's literally the same
brother, nahhhhhhhh you can't be fr, did you play the game? Honestly if u think it's valo with respawn you should stop playing it
Good video! Just a couple of things didn't make sense for me. First thing is that splitting the roster back into tank, attack, defense, and support wouldn't really solve the problem you're talking about. The main reason for why they merged attack and defense (as far as I'm aware) was because both of their goals were effectively just to deal damage, and they were interchangeable as a result. Splitting them apart again without major reworks wouldn't change that. Also, it's a good point that they haven't treated the roles fairly in the past, but I feel like them releasing a tank rn, and then two supports back to back is part of them trying to address that. And you mentioned a bunch of stuff about the shift from two tanks to one, but is your main issue just with OWL stuff? Because you mentioned that it was screwing over tank players to do this, but I've felt the complete opposite about it. I've played tank since launch, and the changes have made the game feel way more interactive. Tanks just gave so much utility and bulk to the team before that it felt really restrictive whenever anyone tried to make a play, other tanks included. The reduced frontline ended up making supports more vulnerable though, and I think that's at least part of why they got the passive healing. Still did enjoy the video, and I hope you make more! Something like a follow up video, once they've stopped messing with everything, would be cool.
I get that Attack and Defense are so similar and that's why they merged, but I'm suggesting this is the perfect time to split them again!! They wouldn't even have to do much work (if they didn't want to) they could slap the movespeed passive on attackers, the ult charge passive on Defenders, and instantly their hero roster issues would be fixed. I get that they may feel thats what they are doing by releasing tanks and healers right now, but A: that will never actually balance it out unless they keep it up for a long long time, which would piss off dps players, and B: just splitting the roles fixes that immediately. And I mean, the roles would still be very similar, but the other two roles are also being pushed towards being similar, they would end up being the most similar 2, but that wouldn't be an issue and would make things fair.
And I agree, tanks can be oppressive, but at the same time I feel like DPS are more oppressive than people let on. When my poor squishies cant get out of spawn because of a cracked widow, I feel pretty down on my role.
Honestly best criticism of my vid yet. You bring up a lotta fair points. I'll be sure to release that follow up vid about the state of the game in the future =)
Ah yes. A Danganronpa connoisseur. I immediately accept your opinion as fact without question.
I very much share these feelings and observations. Sadly, it has turned me off to OW2, especially since it comes at the cost of never playing OW1 again. Blizzard had a great game, and they have lost so much confidence in it. Changing it to be like other games, instead of the unique game it was.
I really hope Bliz hears these sentiments out at some point. I know people disagree, and they'll say we're wrong, but obviously nothing will change if nobody every says anything.
@@setomarie that is why I appreciate you making this video. It is good to get feedback out there.
I am a tank/support main. I played them because A. My team needs them, B. I never found my DPS hero.
I'm now just a support main. Tanks suck in OW 2.
You've doubled your chances of getting onto a team with that switch... and honestly probably shortened your que time by 5 minutes. Massive W. Heres hoping they give tank and heal some love in the future
Long videos are good man, don't hesitate to do these 20+ minute things
Oh boy, do I have a treat for you then... I didn't even intend to make these this long, I just end up talking a lot :D
this video is so great I hope more people hear these ideas
I'm hoping so too, but to be honest so many more have heard it than I was ever expecting. I'm really happy
Here from your latest video. I really agree with most of your points here. Especially how you talked about players who came to play overwatch but it turning into everything else. And as a support and tank player I like helping set up plays and I feel with ow2 they took that away from players like myself. Great vid see you in the comments of the video after this
random rant based on something said at the start:
It seems some of the games I have played over my childhood and teenage years have made me develop some bad habit or trait.
For Overwatch it's trust issues
For Garry's Mod it's fear of getting on a mic without being yelled at, flamed, or cyberbullied (similar issues with overwatch but I never really dealt with that anyway....because of Garry's Mod)
and For Dead by Daylight it's the belief that everyone is toxic or has no respect for you and they all are used to flaming others or being flamed themselves.
Now I play Deep Rock Galactic, which compared to everything else mentioned is like therapy.
OW, Garry's mod, and DBD, ya you definitely need the relaxation time. Glad Deep Rock is helping. DBD made me need therapy too
There is so many problems with overwatch 2. The speed passive for dps will just feed the dps community making it harder to queue as dps. As a tank player how is Reinhardt or Winston supposed to actually get kills when dps can just decide they don’t want to die and just leave the fight with their speed passive.
That's not true at all. The tank ques are actually usually longer. The dps ques will be substantially shorter than in OW1, because you're waiting for 1 less tank, more people are queing for tank, and also it's free to play so more players queing. The speed passive is not going to change any of that.
Speed passive for DPS has been removed for about a month now. It is replaced with being able to keep ult charge when switching heroes.
@@stillnotchill2560 that's cool n all, but they made support aids to play now.
As someone who plays a ton of Brig (she's my most played support) the shield bash trade was incredibly worth it. It sounds awful on paper until you realize how much more lethal you are in close combat, and how much the increased distance lets you engage/disengage and trigger your passives to heal up.
It requires a play shift but it's genuinely more interesting for me and I assume the enemy tank who's face isn't being stunned every 5 seconds, and more interesting to not default to just stunning the person in front of me with the largest hitbox.
The difference is that she takes more skill now and isn't just high impact low skill. That's why they nerfed her and mercy/Moira so much, because low skill abilities and kit shouldn't have high impact.
@@stillnotchill2560 I would say the only skill you need more than old overwatch is knowing that you are slightly more burstable and don't have a guaranteed escape. You still have to only take "winnable trades" on Brig to ensure you're siphoning health faster than your opponent can undo it. Most of anything about original brig (like holding and playing around chokes and corners) is the same. You can gap close on people far more efficiently for some surprising burst damage though.
She's more fun to play being honest, which is the main talking point of this video, that Overwatch 2 is making characters less fun and more boring, which I don't think is the case. There are exceptions to this (Mercy is a feels bad in OW2) but most characters in OW2 that have received significant changes are more fun to play, not less.
I actually was pleasantly surprised with how Brig felt in ow2, but honestly I think it is mostly due to her utilizing the passive healers got so well. Also, I think the bash turns out to be less powerful, BUT, feel better for the brig player (and the player getting hit). Like stunning is strong, but keeping yourself alive feels better as the player
I feel like most of the Overwatch 2 changes have the consistent design choice of "removing mechanics that have been frequent pain points and finding new ways to re-add that character diversity back into the game" (ideally without removing what makes their playstyle unique, so they still feel different from each other)
This lens explains a lot of the CC removal in the entire damage cast in favor of giving them all more burst damage tools. Since I actually play mostly Cassidy, Mei, and Sombra as some of my DPS picks, I'm actually a fan of all their changes. Each character honestly plays and flows way better than they used to, the higher damage allowing them to do what they've done in the past but far more consistently, ironically with less skill required, not more.
Supports I still think need more changes, hence no third beta being a major disappointment. Mercy needs something new and unique and Moira is hopefully still receiving adjustments to the "skill orb" to make it more engaging to interact with.
Tanks obviously got a decent short end of a stick but I honestly think that after playing with them a lot, the tank change and tank passive is a net benefit for the entire game balance. Ultimates come out far less frequently which makes them feel more special on every character. A lot of tanks still have kept their identity. Zarya still feels a lot like Zarya to play for example, and Junker Queen, Orisa, and new Doomfist all feel like fresh tanks as someone who's always been fairly disinterested in the role. I think I'll be playing tank in Overwatch 2 a lot more than I used to because the role honestly feels so much more fun. Removing half the CC in the game and reducing the archetype that inflicts it to only 1 per game means that I've felt more unstoppable on tank than any other role, and that impact has made the OW2 betas more enjoyable to me.
Overall I do think Blizzard has some solid work to still do (Supports have suffered the most in the beta) but I actually think the tank and DPS changes are going to make the entire game far healthier to play, casually and competitively.
No limits honestly would be so nice
I don't know, I don't like how Blixzard tries to please both pros and casual players. Like it's so frustrating because some heroes are balanced and some are broken
4v4 sounds extremely boring to me and I've played since launch and have reached GM in tank role. There's a lot i disagree with in this video but honestly I'm tired of arguing about the game to even bother going through each point.
I feel you, this video has insanely bad takes
Ik you said you were tired of arguing but I'd love to hear your thoughts
Yeah, it might have some bad takes…. However, literally anything is better then the garbage that blizz is trying to sell as gourmet. The thing is its even gotten worse since this video came out, tanks are even less impact since JQ came out. Now the game at the highest level invariably is just 3 DPS (given that JQ is significantly more like a big DPS then a tank, even tho we already had proof that didnt work *cough* hog bad *cough cough* ) and 2 Supports, whoopee, so much fun… i think i actually would rather play a rehashed cod game then OW these days, atleast they make regular consistent content and the game is exactly what it says on the tin instead of as i said before garbage packaged as something new and exciting. The longer this charade goes on, the more i think some people just latched onto some of the streamers who said it would be great when news flash they were being paid by Blizz. I wanted OW2 to be great… but now i kinda just hope my beloved game dies with honour.
@@Ross516 he cares too much about pro players, which is something I personally feel is terrible to design around as it makes up like 300 players at most. Wow, tank players won’t get hired as much, cool that doesn’t affect the (I know most of these don’t play anymore) 40 million people who play the game. He also seems to think that they won’t rebalance the game around one less tank. Yeah, All the tanks by themselves in OW1 are bad on their own, because they were designed as pairs. As long as Blizzard buffs tanks enough it doesn’t matter if it’s 5v5 or if dps have slightly more speed. 4v4 doesn’t make any more or less sense than 5v5 aside from the perspective of PvE (which let’s be honest, will be as popular as Fortnite: Save the World). He says 4v4 will make players have a bigger impact and doesn’t realise(?) that it’ll just make the game more toxic as one person doing bad is more noticeable and of course, it’s never your own fault. I think people are overreacting to the changes in OW2 and assuming it’s going to be bad without playing it with the new changes and rebalance. Of course this video came out (before the first beta?). I’ve played two of the betas and the game feels better, at least more brawley, which I think is good cause that’s what the game has always been even if it’s supposed to be more objective based. If the players are going to play the game as more of a shooter than team-based objective class shooter, than they should lean into that.
In my opinion, the biggest mistep Blizzard did was limiting people to only one role in a match (unless you play arcade). They also really haven’t addressed the rampant toxicity, and while it personally doesn’t bother me, it does leave to a good portion of matches being lost cause everyone is just arguing in the chat instead of playing the game. Yeah we lost first point pretty quickly, we still have time to change our comp and work around their comp and strongest player. Even my friends are this way, saying gg in the chat and sitting in spawn when the match isn’t over until it’s over.
And here’s the thing, people will never be happy with the balance of the game. 6 years of playing have taught me that every meta gets hated and they simply can’t tune the game quickly enough to not have metas lasting so long people think it “killed the game.” People are focused so much on the balance, that they know nothing about because the game isn’t out and even when it is it’ll be in a constant state of changes every few weeks, but they should be concerned about having a battle pass, which I feel like will just make it even harder to earn cosmetics (from my experience with other games that have them), and that kinda sucks. In OW1 I could at least play the game enough to earn credits through dupes or arcade or get lucky in the free boxes you’re constantly getting. But in OW2, if everything is locked behind a paywall that’ll be incredibly frustrating to me, and I imagine a lot of other people.
The first game was designed around a 6v6 where everyone was communicating and trying to win, that is not the reality of the playerbase. Blizzard wanted players to swap heroes as needed to counter the enemy team, that was not happening (which is why keeping some ult charge is a change I think is great as it incentivizes people to switch without much penalty). As long as the playerbase continues to contradict the design of the game, it’ll feel crap to play. And I think they are de-emphasizing objectives and getting rid of a tank to more closely match how people actually play.
This turned into what I think were bad takes in the video to what I think would be good changes. But at the end of the day, none of us design multiplayer games so we really don’t know what is actually good and what isn’t. The players aren’t uniform in what they want so someone will always be upset. Just because we play games doesn’t mean we know how to design them. I don’t think I should be writing music even though I listen to hundreds of hours of music in any given year. Not to say we aren’t more knowledgeable because we play this game and others like it, but at the end of the day players are kinda dumb and shouldn’t have a huge impact on game design. A lot of people don’t actually know what they want until someone makes it. This is all just my opinion and is supposed to facilitate a healthy discussion about a game I’ve spent a lot of time playing, like many others that are probably watching this video.
@@Ross516 if you would like some concise benefits OW2 will have, I recommend checking out ioStux's video on it. Overall, 5v5, less hard CC, less ults to track, less enemies to be aware of, less chaos on the map, less shields/tanks to burn through, faster ques, free to play. All of these things benefit pro play, from OWL play, high ranked ladder, as well as casual players who just want to hop in a game after work and not wait 15 minutes for a DPS que, to then just sit and spam at 2 shields or get chain stunned. They also remove the worst game mode 2CP, which requires painful amounts of coordination to get to the enemy B site, and basically team kill them twice without anyone on your team dying to simply cap B. It also benefits overwatch league viewership, as 5v5 will be much more readable from a viewer perspective with less on the screen at once, and no double shield or goats cancer. Additionally we receive reworked heros which are essentially new heros in doom, orisa and others, plus the 3 new heros they are adding. Literally the only downside I see with OW2 is losing tank synergies, but even as a tank player I find it to be worth it by far. I could go into more depth on each of these points but it just takes far to long to break it all down lmao.
Wow this video is good for a first video
Overwatch was a team game. Never a shooter. When they got rid of the full need for full teamwork they lost me. It's not overwatch anymore.
Define teamwork because IMO Its still there. Syncing up with your team still exists, comboing ults still exists, pressing w together exists. Feels like everyone is acting like its call of duty free for all now
@@VambraceMusic exactly people r crying because its the same game and blizz changed nothing and then procced to complain about how there is no teamwork and the game is cod
@@oscarvanbaardwyk1112 it is closer to cod but not full cod, but I stuck with the original overwatch for so long I want some improvement on that. 5v5 isn't the worst thing but it makes it closer to other games already out there. I want overwatch to be unique, I want it to be balanced. I like the planning and counters the first one had. I liked faster ults. Overwatch 2 just feels like the same game but slightly worse, especially for supports which I played. Idk it just doesn't interest me as much.
@@ga6257 Have you also played the second beta?
Theres still a large need for teamwork, its just more passive than active. A tank still has to do his job to enable his DPS, he just doesnt need to as much providing cover and can focus more on fragging and doing simply by how juiced they are
New brig is "tankier" because the support passive stacks with inspire (and it kicks in very quickly if she's shielding damage), so she has multiple healing sources that just layer on top of each other. AND she's also the support that keeps other supports alive and tanks dive the best... she was the #1 highest winrate support in OW2 by a large margin and she has been played a decent amount of time in pro OWL games. People who say brig is bad in OW2 are out of their minds
Brig is very good in normal play, but at the highest level she isn't that good anymore. She's significantly worse at protecting her flex support in ow2, so most teams just play ana zen in dive.
I hate the higher pace it's basically 'play Moira' now and she has highest damage lol
i dont know, i hated ow2 since the announcement, i played the beta and honestly it feels way better than ow1, kinda like its more balanced, maybe because there still is no meta, but either way it feels good
I love him saying "Gold is a tough tank buddy" while I watch the most horrid D.va gameplay I have ever witnessed
THIS LMAO. WELL SAID.
Dva gameplay is horrid all the way up to mid masters imo, almost nobody below that knows how she's actually meant to be played nor do they usually have the awareness and/or gamesense to do so.
I mean, if you look at Overwatch as a whole over the past 6 years, it's not just OW2 where this issue arises. It is basically after Sombra that things have gone downhill. Skill was substituted for characters that do massive damage at the push of a button, with either an ability that's so big in hitbox it's actually harder to miss than it is to miss, or it has splash damage so even if you miss you still hit it regardless. Then there's the amount of characters that have damage NEGATION or ESCAPE abilities, there have always been a few of those (Genji is one of the strongest in that category due to the reset on his dash with every elimination, even if he's not the one to deal the final blow), but more and more characters received abilities that negate damage outright, reverse it, or allow them to escape without taking any damage or by overshielding.
In short, Overwatch went from a decently skill-based game with some heroes that were on the easier side in terms of skill but they were balanced in a way that they weren't overpowered, to a game were the risk/reward balance that is SUPER IMPORTANT with any competitive game, is exceedingly more and more broken. Just look at Sigma compared to D.Va, which illustrates that problem really well. We can call it power creep to make it easier for some people to understand, but overall, characters do more for less inputs or less risk involved to perform that action.
Tracer is a character for instance that is well balanced. High risk, because over 70% of the cast can one shot her one way or another due to her low health, but also high reward if you can aim well and balance your blinks/recall well. It's why she has a high barrier of entry for doing well, and has a basically infinite skill ceiling. Because she's purely based on skill.
It sucks, but it is what it is. The OW devs want the game to appeal to the biggest majority, meaning it'll be less and less an actual competitive experience. For years pros have said that ranked is basically just quick play with a number, because of how poor OW's balancing is to cater to lower skilled players while also being exceptionally poor in setting the game up for proper teamplay. Having played in a semi-pro team it was so fun and rewarding to play scrims, to the point where I didn't even want to play ranked anymore because it just is not the same game.
This is a discrepancy that should be dealt with. They balance around OWL but there isn't real comp in OW, this is the soul sucking part, all tournaments except OWL are unsanctioned 3rd party stuff. They want the NFL for esports, but the NFL was a conglomeration of several smaller leagues that refined the game and ultimately beat the AFL for dominance in national syndication. They all had small neighborhood teams that fed the big city team at the end of the day. You can't just bring a bunch of Koreans over and call them American city names and expect success. the MLS is a much better guide for the thing they're trying to do, I'd much rather support Busan Bruisers, Incheon Interceptors, Seoul Slayers etc... than the fail league they tried. they tried to top down this thing the wrong way and wasted a metric ton of money and worse goodwill.
On the point of player agency; role queue/role lock has been the biggest factor on REDUCING player agency. Something that OW2 seems to think it's solving but it was a self made problem in the first place.
Having the option to switch to any dps/tank/healer during the match in OW1 is what made it feel great to me. Even from a comp perspective as someone who mainly mains support but had a few dps or tanks I loved playing, being able to ask a dps/tank if they were willing to support for a bit and swapping around makes the connection to your team feel really nice and are the moments I cherish the most from OW1.
There are so many characters in overwatch that "bleed" into the other roles. If a tank's main purpose is to make space for your team by either CC'ing or shielding and not just mindlessly absorb damage(which it really should be) then Mei partially fits into a tank role.
If instead of just making characters be "healers" and instead thinking about how much sustain a character brings to the team, then soldier and sombra are also both partially healers. It's not their main role but in a pinch they can bring that extra support to turn the tide in a pinch.
There is so much granularity into how well and different a team comp could work in the early days of overwatch1 after character stacking was removed.
I almost completely stopped playing after role queue was added.
Love this video. Discussion of game design in FPS games is so interesting to listen to.
Also love the Danganronpa music.
Excited to see more from you.
I agree with most everything in this video. I think role queue killed the game. Now you can't play any of the 20 something characters you paid for, you can only play 5 to 6 (tanks and heals) if you want to play more than 2 matches in an hour thanks to queue times. Not only does role queue suck for queue times it's harder to make up for someone that's bad at whatever role. You guys need more healing to get thru a choke? Well someone pre roll queue could swap to another healer and help out if you have say a reddit lucio who refuses to heal anyone, etc. Like you said, it's claustrophobic
I know some people feel like this is a dumb hill to die on, but I'll never stop saying if you were having trouble without role q, you probably just needed to improve. Elo hell wasn't real. Glad to see support for more character choice freedom :)
Subscribed! (Sorry for the rant. I just really liked what you had to say.)
I started with the 1 year anniversary and have been a Rein/Mercy main since. You spoke up about many of my own issues with the coming OW2. My main take away from playing the beta is that it isn't the game I fell in love with. As much as a lot of people want to keep trying to convince themselves that it is; it just isn't. That's why there is a 2 after the name.
I will be glad to finally have the Rein we should of had all along. He feels functionally great in OW2 but only because its how we want him to play in OW1. Dropping a tank is insane because tanks weren't the problem. The whole issue with double shield weren't the shields. Sure its never fun to shoot shields but they don't last for more than a sec if people simply focus fire. It was the issue of having two shields plus immortality field plus zen discord orb or Brig that really made the meta miserable in my opinion.
I completely agree the role passives are an issue. This whole idea is simply lazy and they don't "balance" anything. They got tired of trying to think of fun and exciting character passives that made each one unique and just spread out the passives they already have in the game to more characters. 100% Lazy development in my opinion. This is so they can try to pump out characters faster. What was so wrong with getting 2-3 a year? I bet you we will still only get that many or less. You have a whole world and you are going to stuff all of your character into 3 tiny boxes...come on.
Now for support or should I say DPS that can heal. In OW2 support are expected to do the same job as DPS but also try to keep their teammates alive. A lot of streamers and developers tell current supports they had it easy and need to "get good". Would you tell your babysitter they need to watch your kids and help you do your work? I understand a DPS support play style exists in OW1 but a purely support playstyle can also exist currently. In OW2 they take that option away. Just try to play purely supportive and see how much fun you have in OW2. I don't need to "get good" to enjoy OW1 casually but I will need to in order to enjoy OW2 in the same way.
I don't have much to say about DPS since I am one of the people who thinks the game revolves around them. They are literally handed the game and still complain. Cry some more because instead of being able to pick what you want your team hopes you'll pick a counter to something. That is literally why you get every hero in the game DPS. I mean seriously add the tank and support together and they still don't have remotely the same countering power DPS have. Especially since the ONLY job DPS have is to kill the other team faster than they kill yours. Your really going to get mad that you have to pick one of your 16 options to do your ONLY job better? Yes tanks and supports should swap if they are not getting any value but the first team members who should be swapping IMO are the DPS since you know if you can add more value quicker.
Thanks for reading if you did. ^_^
I think more people need to read that second paragraph of yours specifically. Gosh people just love to hate shields don't they? And as much as I hated double shield meta specifically, I think you hit the nail on the head with the real problems.
This entire rant was beautiful, honestly. "They are literally handed the game and still complain" is pure gold. I hope Bliz realizes how important tank/healer players are to the game
-a fellow Rein/Mercy player (neither are my main, but both in my top4
I really hope overwatch 2 dies in a week…
Since blizzard's goal is to have fast games for ow in general, why not just make tank and supports be sub-dps first with their main roles being a simple passive like thiccness for tanks and easier healing for supports. A lot of people dont like playing supports because most of these heroes force you to actively be heal bots.
The whole point of the supports in OW2 is that the more healbot you are the worse you're gonna do, you're playing them wrong, the more APM you have dealing damage and using utility the more fights you're gonna win, unless your teammates just run in and die trying to flank all the time in wich case... yeah it sucks but people will learn the game in the first few months.
it's the other way around, everyone has a capability to deal damage anyway. that's why GOAT meta worked.A lot of DPS heroes need doomfist treatment, they need to be reworked as tanks/healers, so those who like sombra for example would queue for a support role. Torb could be reworked to give armour packs. Sombra could be reworked to hack friendly heroes, to heal them and refresh their abilities. Symmetra had shield generator, make it a simple ability. May could save her teammates by shift abilities.
@@IgorJCorrea someone that gets it! its like every one that played healer played it to be a healbot and expects that to be fun for everyone. Thank god that gameplay is gone, now people that are actually good will get where they belong.
@@f0kes32 what your describing makes no sense and isnt fun, the point of the game is to have fun, those are unfun abilities for everyone against them. Torb with packs was abysmal and unfun i mained him at the time and it broke the character. Same thing with sym these old things were taken out for a reason, the only good thing she had was that shield and they made that into a whole new character because her having that wasnt fair with the other 2 tanks and the other 2 healers on the team.
My main issue has always been how they’ve turned the game into a competitive deathmatch. There’s no reason to target tanks as they aren’t exactly shielding their team from damage anymore with shields being nerfed/removed, as well as the reduced ult charge you gain from them. The role has turned most characters into another roadhog-that is to say a glorified dps. Zarya and Dva, two fun and intuitive off tanks, are now scrappy fighters with no clear goal. Winston and Reinhardt are criminally underpowered without a second tank to back them up, and if they get buffed to the point of relevance then the player loses agency because they’re just a stat stick. The Doomfist change was a cool idea and fair to the character’s philosophy. But we also have Junker Queen, Roadhog, Orisa who fit the role of “kill the enemy before they kill you.” After years of complaining about too many shields and too much healing, players have gotten what they wanted. But now every game is like quick play. So what’s the point in coordinating or caring?
Please do more of this
Blizzard just needs to give up on whatever it is they’re trying to do with supports now, the newly added supports really show their weird philosophy they’ve adapted. Moira and brigitte are so overtuned in many situations they manage to out-dps dps characters (especially brigitte and the goddamned reign she had over the game when she came out). Baptiste is barely a support because he barely actually heals. Fact is shooting things in the head is simply more fun than healing teammates and adding supports that shoot people in the head better still won’t make them as fun as dps because you still need to spend some time healing. People only play support if they want to have a less stressful game or aren’t as confident in their shooting skills. What blizzard has to do is appeal to casual players more if they want more people playing healer. God knows this game could use a few less toxic tryhards.
The 4v4 without role queue is such a good idea. Ever since OW1 got 2-2-2 i felt like the game dropped in quality and creativity. I was mostly playing support during the open queue time, but being able to switch to a different role mid match led to many creative compositions and worked out really well sometimes. Being able to e.g swap a support for a dps and turn your team into a completely new composition was one of the main reasons I loved OW so much when it first was released. You could play classic dive for more high paced attacks or triple tank with more sustain as a few examples. Now with 2-2-2 the game is much more stale and especially the OWL and the pro scene is much less interesting. When I queue into a comp game now, i have to play support, there is no room for a swap in roles to a more janky and creative comp.
Now that you mentioned the 4v4 format i want it so badly for OW2. I feel like it's the best way for me to get interested in OW again.
As a Tank player myself I only play open q comp, so much better
As a tank main. I really like the class que. There are moments i want to play another role and i like having the support of the other roles in the game with me when i do.
Your backhanded insults towards the audience weren't funny or witty, they were just obnoxious and condescending. This video is unwatchable at times - and the structure doesn't help it either.
"must suck down in gold 🤓" *proceeds to show dogshit gameplay*
A lot of good insight that I was also thinking about, but also stuff I didn't even consider. Great analysis.
Also, love the Danganronpa OST
Glad you liked my thoughts :D and ya Danganronpa is my favorite game series, and I just felt it really fit the mood. It's always been my thinking music