Questioned: How Hard Is A 1960's Supersonic High Level Intercept? | DCS WORLD
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#DCSQuestioned #GR #FastBomberIntercept #DCSWorld
Fast and high bogies aren't intercepted by flying at them but with them, essentially letting them catch up to you while you climb away from them.
There's the easy way and then there's the GR way, which is always more satisfying.
It’s the Grim Reapers License to Thrill®.
That’s really interesting, makes sense....can I ask how that would work when defending a realm from incoming fighter/bombers?.... wouldn’t letting them into your airspace let them bomb prior to interception?
With better coordination you would take him easily. You should climb at transonic, level up at ~6km/20,000ft & accelerate to supersonic, climb again -> Shoot. You can zoom climb to some 27km / 90,000ft but you don't really need that in this scenario.
BTW. You can't afford to decelerate at high alt, it kills your engine power.
BTW. Second afterburner works up to ~4km / 15,000ft.
Cheers
Need the English electric lighting that was its job
The only aircraft that calls bingo fuel immediately after engine start 😎
Oh if only , love that Jet :-)
@Brian Coley www.916-starfighter.de/Zipping%20at%20FL%20730.htm
The Lightning was cool and from certain angles even looking great. And it indeed had power!
I would prefer a J35 Draken, with the "datalink" to get GCI data to the aircraft =)
This is exactly what the MiG-21 was built to do. However, if you don't operate the aircraft correctly it won't go as planned.
I was privvy to similar high-altitude, high-speed intercepts in the Barents Sea repeatedly. I flew missions on the RC-135 V/W Rivet Joint as an Airborne Intel Op. Sometimes, we would launch joint missions out of RAF Mildenhall with SR-71s. We would take off many hours before the Blackbird and we would be on station already engaged in the mission. The Blackbird would come in from the top and head straight for the Soviet coast at maximum speed and at super high altitude. The Russians would launch MiG-25s (and later MiG-31s) to try and intercept as the Blackbird would head for the coast and then do a wide sweeping turn just coming short of Soviet airspace. The whole Russian coast line would light up like up like a Christmas tree and the MiGs would go nuts trying to catch the SR-71. It was impossible. All it did was give us lots of intel. The SR-71 would fly off at high-speed and high-altitude and thumb his nose. The MiGs never even got close, ever. Loved those missions.
Here's a little story. RAF Leuchars in the 80's airshow was brill. German F104 if I recall takes off, and buggers off for ages. Everyone thinks it's gone. Display continues. Some 40 mins later the starfighter returns at the speed of sound, my mate was pouring tomato soup out his flask when the audience hit the floor. Tomato soup everywhere with 3 degree burns to his arm... Was hilarious.
In case you're wondering, the episode in queston is "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" from Season 1 of TOS. A reasonable affair, but rather slow
Ok when are we getting an USS Enterprise(Starship) Mod for DCS?
I have a night high level intercept for the cold war russian jets, the mig 19 does it best!
Those aircraft in the background of the F-104 taxiing are F-105 Thunderchiefs probably D's from the look of them, hard to see the nose clearly as that is the only difference between an earlier B vs D as the B had a much smaller black radome over the later D's. Then you see a F-101 on the 3rd row clear in back, I thought this was an F-4 until I relooked at the tail as it is a T and not the upside down Y configuration of the Phantom. I would say this was filmed around 1964 to maybe early 66. And I'm talking about the actual military film not the USS superimposed Enterprise sequence.
Yeah if you had an EE Lightning you could - a Man's plane.
That's the actual russians trying to intercept the first Blackbirds lmao
The search radar I worked on was 50s technology. Mostly vacuum tubes. An aircraft that big at that altitude with no jamming we would have detected at least 200 miles out
Earth Curvature not a prob at that range from a ground station??
@@grimreapers not at that altitude
@@grimreapers I found a cool calculator. Radar horizon for a radar on the ground and a 50,000 foot target is 316 miles
The way you said Shatner, I shat myself.
♫"There's GRs on the starboard bow, scrape 'em off, Jim."♫
R-3R is for this type of intercept. Practice climbing I guess.
The F-104 for its time was a beast here are a few facts
Altitude
meters (feet) time
seconds
3,000 (9,800) 41.85 FAI record no. 9107.
6,000 (19,700) 58.41 FAI record no. 9106
9,000 (29,500) 81.14 FAI record no. 9105.
12,000 (39,400) 99.90 FAI record no. 9104.
15,000 (49,200) 131.10 FAI record no. 9103.
20,000 (65,600) 222.99 FAI record no. 9102.
25,000 (82,000) 266.03 FAI record no. 9080
30,000 (98,400) 904.92 FAI record no. 9065
On 14 December 1959, USAF Captain "Joe" B. Jordan, flying F-104C 56-0885 at Edwards AFB, set a new world altitude record of 103,389 feet (31,513 m), in the process becoming the first aircraft to take off under its own power and cross both the 30,000-meter and 100,000-foot thresholds. He also set a 30,000-meter (98,400 ft) time-to-climb record of 904.92 seconds. USAF Major Robert W. Smith, flying NF-104A 56-0756, set an unofficial world altitude record of 118,860 feet (36,230 m) on 15 November 1963, and on 6 December 1963 he flew the same aircraft to another unofficial altitude record of 120,800 feet (36,800 m)
Very cool
I'd love to see this done again, except with a MiG-25. (...which I guess is not yet in DCS)
Should try it with a Viggen. DCS only got the AJ version though so it might not work but the JA version is after all the only fighter to have repeatedly intercepted the SR-71. Something no other western fighter can claim. The foxbat might have done it based on eyewitness accounts but if it happened anything official is still classified.
A Draken would be nice, if we are supposed to stay in the 60's ;)
Try an American plane! F-104 Easy
USS enterprise meet Super sonic f#ck stick 😂
ED is missing a good niche by not pursuing the century series, this would have been an awesome with a f106
Completely agree. I'll get the 100's into DCS if it kills me.
If I may CAP, a critique is your energy management particularly in the climb and not just this video. Combat or performance climb is Mach 0.9 until any given altitude say, 25,000 ft, level off and then accelerate. Get into the Mach (M1.2 to 1.4) and then shallow climb to 36,000 ft. 36K is the "last" level acceleration altitude before "going on up". 36,000 ft offers the most efficient "best thrust to least drag" altitude to max perform the jet. The F-104 used 36,000 ft to get out past M2.0 and then up it went via zoom climb or a step climb to 70,000+ft. I am literally in tears when I watch you trying to get to altitude at M0.5, 35 degree nose up in burner. Don't leave it on the table like this. Wring it out, get it all. You are painfully way behind the curve, ditto for this intercept vid. The MIG-23 for example, if it wants to have any kind of speed to maneuver at 40,000 ft, needs to climb at M1.6 As you know, jet performance/energy is about momentum and if you ain'ts gots its by 36K, yous aint's gunna gets its. Other than this you are a heck of a Bloke - top shelf Chap - and quickly securing your place as THE poster boy for DCS for Q4 2020. LOL. Cheers and Salute!
Absolutely correct about energy management but slightly incorrect as to the climb profile and speed of the 104. This is from my humble experience. Most intercepts like this in practice started at 35K or so and then a turning climb as we accelerated past the mach. The 104 wasn't thrust limited and so even at M1.4 as you climbed, when you went to full burner, you felt it continue to accelerate past M2. I dug out an old intercept plan out of my archives :-) and here is the intercept plan data. Of course, this was under GCI similar to what was shown in the video with callouts and turns. This is a standard zoom profile. Target is a M0.9, 60Kft, 50 miles distant with a cross track angle of 70 degrees. The 104 is at combat weight with 2 aim-9B of around 18000 lbs and it's a standard day with standard atmospheric conditions. the 104 is at M0.9 at 36Kft. The point of the intercept start is called the Gate and you are at the speed and altitude stated. Time at the Gate is t=0 and you go to full power with the target at a 56 degree offset. At t=1:05 you're at M0.96 and begin a 90 degree climbing turn into the target which at this point is about 26-30 degree offset. At t=2:10 you're at M1.1 and climbing and slowly turning and accelerating. At t=3:45 airspeed is M1.4, T=4:25, airspeed is M1.5, at T=5:05 airspeed is M1.6, at T=5:25 airspeed is M1.7 and GCI directs you to turn into the direction of the target path. At T=6:36 airspeed is M1.8 and at T=7:0 your airspeed is M2.01 and you're 2K feet below and behind the target where you pull up to the target altitude and lock and launch at T=8:0. You then do an energy management transition to lower altitude and base because you won't have a lot of fuel left. The 104 took aprox 7 minutes to go from M.96 to M2.0 from 36K to 60K. Pretty good for an old bird :-) The key of course was having top notch ground control intercept techs who were masters at calling offsets and turns otherwise you would likely be looking at a lot of blue sky while burning fuel. Those intercept radar operators were unsung hero's of those days. They were pretty handy too when visibility went tango uniform as it often did in the northern winters.
@@haedubabaganush Superb! Where and when did you fly? G model with the -7 engine? 8 mins in burner at altitude:: 300-350 lbs/min? Used up 2400lbs+?
@@knightonwarbeck1969 Yes, CF-104G, did training at Cold Lake when we were rocking to American Woman. Internal fuel load for the G was around 5700 lbs...and as I said, an energy management descent as by the time you got to the range and started the intercept you would have already used up a 5th or more of your fuel. From 60K to base after the return vector, even in the 4 you could go a while on reduced power. It would be cool to see a 4 in the sim.
@@haedubabaganush Was born on the base. Father flew the 104, class of 69-70. He flew the airshow circuit the summers of 70 and 71, then I was born in June of 72 so mom said "No. Stay home." Capt. (At the time) Barry D. Krall, retired full bird. After this had exchange to Shaw and flew the RF-4C. Two postings at NORAD, one at SHAPE, then C/O at Trenton. Ring a bell? He really enjoyed the increase of takeoff performance only -40C can deliver. Here are two more names; Wally Stone (Snowbirds for 2 years), Ernie Poole (101 and 106). Both Wally and Ernie were at NORAD with us 82-84. The Pooles were our sponsors.
@@knightonwarbeck1969 Great that your dad survived the great squadron shutdown by King Pierre and the restructuring of the CAF. If you remember, 11 squadrons were disbanded and a lot of folks were fighting for seats. Many of us opted to leave as at the time, airline hires were few and flying seemed like a bleak future. I went through the cadet system and at the time you could apply with just grade 13 so we were simple FO's....that changed with shortly after and you needed a degree. I opted out in 70 and went and got my degree and changed careers after getting a few graduate degrees so no regrets. I remember so few from back then, guys like Bill Gazey, and Col. Bob Cairns...great people stand out. The 104 had some severe limitations as your dad can attest too but it was hard not to love flying it. At the time, they also changed the roles from nuclear strike to support strike and that of course changed the courses. Lots of changes and uncertainty at the time. At the time, the nuke strike missions were basically one way trips as the idea was to penetrate to target, drop the nuke...keep going and bailout and wait for things to get batter and rescue. A total crock of course, but that basically was the essence of the nuke strike role. Ask your dad if he remembers that and if he enjoyed the YOD 398 DME approaches to 31 on crappy winter days. I'm over seventy now so my real world flying days other than the sim have been over for a while but the love of flying is never gone. Take care.
F-100 Super Sabers
104
Even the upgraded f100d has a twr of something like a f86D sabre dog and hawker hunter, it has the thrust to go supersonic but has horrible acceleration
Widow makers Cap 👍 f104Starfighters
Loved them 😍😍
Hmm, I feel this needs to be revisited once Draken is released. ;) Need something that looks like it's straight out of Asteroids to chase down something that looks like a spaceship. (and it was active in the 60s iirc)
I tried with a Mig-19P.
Providing the Mig-19 is an accurate model.
And taking into account, I'm not a real pilot by any means; I recorded the following.
Load out, two missiles, no tanks..afterburner.
Maximum altitude was 53149 ft...speed 476 KN.
At about 49,000 ft, the controls started getting hard to handle. (thin air)
Still, for a 1950's era aircraft, a respectable performance.
So is it possible?.
Maybe with an experienced pilot. I don't know.
The issue with the Mig-21 is the small delta wing.
In thin air not enough lift I think.
Interesting experiment all the same.
Good video.
was not impossible with the 104 and with it's much smaller wing area. We routinely practiced such intercepts.
@@haedubabaganush I tried with the Mig-21.
Load out..2-R-60's..2-R13's..one 490 liter belly tank.
As one poster here suggested, I climbed to 36,000 ft., leveled off..hit mach.
Then went to 41,000 in a shallow climb.
At that altitude, a lot of drag.
Dropped belly tank at 41,200, coaxed it to 46,672ft at 242KH then it wouldn't go higher.
As 'Scotty' said.."Captain, I'm giving her she's got, she won't take anymore."
The Mig-19P did a better showing I think.
Interesting experiment.
@@ladyjayne5008 IIRC the 21 even clean and near empty would struggle to get to 50K. Again, IIRC there was a serious thrust performance dropoff at altitude. Seems to be modeled correctly in the sim.
This is so scary. If I saw the star ship enterprise, man, can you imagine? You know what I'd do? I'd probably have a critical incident of the most excremental sort.
Great footage😂💙
Do that mission again with a mig 19 you will feel differently
19 is a beast.
Could an F-106 have caught him?
Not with GR tactics.
Chuck Norris would have done it Cap !!!!
Ackchyually, in Soviet Russia, the bomber intercepts you! :D
Try the Mirage 2000, it's performance is pretty close to the F-106
Still enjoying the content ! Thanks to Cap & Grim Reapers.
English electric lightning would of done it... if it had enough fuel...
Yeah, burned 1/4 of its fuel in a climb, regardless its my favorite aircraft, with the f104 and tomcat coming in second
@@Chase-Man there is that cool story of one intercepting the U2. Yanks bless em were a little shocked it could do it.
Thuds in the background of the 104 taxi
Is it bad that I knew where that "declassified footage" came from as soon as I saw the first shot?
lol
English Electric Lightening...
The 104 pilot just casually pops open the canopy to chat to his crew while taxying
I have one plane for you, that was the best Vietnam/Cold War era interceptor on the planet, and she goes by the name of F-106 Delta Dart.
It has a real spirit of attack to it . It was alo used in night ground attack roll in Vietnam as it had IR tracking , the weapons bay had unguided rockets installed .
@@edmundscycles1 You are thinking of the F-102. The F-106 did not go to Vietnam.
@@gort8203 in thatbcase you may want to talk to a guy that flew them in Vietnam who has a youtube channel and has a book called spirit of attack .
@@gort8203 Both great though :)
@@gort8203 the f102 was quite an all round fighter though . In some ways it was superior to the f4 but for the lack of an air to ground load . The Aim 4 falcon was partially effective against night time ground targets .
The f106 was only 6 airframes sent to Vietnam . Mostly CAP over Laos.
The mig 21 was a cockpit and wings attatched to a engine
Ok since I have not seen this asked and the Enterprise was in the video. CAP have you seen the " Shuttlecraft " in the hanger at Groom Lake in DCS yet? The group of hangers off the South taxiways, in the back of the open hanger.
Yup I found it a couple years ago :)
Ok cool. Any other hidden eggs found by you or the boyz, Don't remember ever seeing a "Quirks of DCS video"???
I gotta ask...who is Tom Lohr and what did he do???
Oh he's just this real douschey guy that claims to be able to see the dead and some other stuff.
Tom Lohr is a highly dynamic military genius who is currently engaged in several classified plots to take over the world.
Thanks, that’s clear as mud. Lol
This is what you needed
Lightning vs U-2 and Concorde!
th-cam.com/video/8DdUwIhI-ZA/w-d-xo.html
thxx
DCS is irrelevant to me because it's confirmed the pentagon has real UFO's. I want a simulation of those vehicles.
lol
Hanz Moleman I hope this is a joke
what the hell
"CAP, did you know DCS is irrelevant?"
"Huh?"
"yeah, UFOs bro."
I'd love to see Cap build an interceptor in KSP ;)
Cap, have you seen the DCS independence day mod? It has the giant alien ships and the little fighters too. You guys should do a proper ID reenactment.
oh wow!!!
do you have a link pelase?
@@grimreapers I don't believe they ever got it approved in the user files, but there are links and description in the comments of this reddit post by the creator (plus a video). redd.it/hc8nc3
Happy birthday RC btw🎉🎂
1960's interceptor? F106A would have eaten that TU-160.
not really, it would have gotten close enough to launch it's falcon missile.... with a small nuke warhead....so close is a relative term.
"Whatever that thing is, it is big!"
My totally uneducated guess is the ones in the background being F11F Tigers
1:03 th-cam.com/video/WMREaw8b8wc/w-d-xo.html
8:44 That's a weird way of pronouncing English Electric Lightning there :)
We need proper GCI directions in DCS...
And if you really want to learn intercepts, fire up Silent Hunter 3 or 4 and try getting a shot at some precious metal inside a 21+ kts battle group while being submerged and trying to stay stealthy at like 2-4kts max. Long story short: If you think you're way ahead and might catch him, go ahead some more, like twice of that. Great thing about subsims is that you've got plenty of time to think and plan, but the general mechanics are the same.
You know, there are UFO and F104 mods for DCS you could have used for properly re-enacting this. ;-)
DCS needs mig 25s
DCS needs the EEL!
Shatner's got game.
English Electric Lightning
haha flew over my house
Why isnt tom lohr valued anymore?
He stole some jewels from Britain. NOT COOL Lohr!
Questioned: How Hard Is A 1960's Supersonic High Level Intercept? | DCS WORLD
Flying Circus answer: Impossibly hard in our clown cars. Real world answer: Not so hard for actual fighter interceptor pilots who are trained to do it and have good GCI.
I posted an example to a reply to Knighton Warbeck if you're interested.
@@haedubabaganush Thanks
f15a is 60s
Sulu would have just launched a couple proton torpedoes at you.
Plane in the background is a Super Sabre.
Actually, I'm not certain after looking at multiple pictures.
I think it is!
Shatner... he's magnificent.
You guys got me!
Happy birthday RC
Are f4s on dcs???
Pls add f104 dcs
What does he mean by not that valued of a viewer anymore?
Lohr came to UK and threw eggs at my house. NOT COOL Lohr
@@grimreapers understandable. Not cool
More of a possibility and less of a pipe dream, good idea and video, given the circumstances. Too bad no America made product. Hopefully Cap and Putin haven't stuck a deal. Cap show casing Soviet aircraft, for Russian Golden showers.??
What did Tom Lohr do??
Cap won a silver medal in the Biathlon in the Winter Olympics in Russia. I reported him for doping and they took his medal away. He’s held a grudge ever since.
I earned that medal FAIR AND SQUARE Lohr!
The Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow would do it.
The main reason the US put so much pressure on Canada to scrap the cf-105 is because it could reach the U-2 with ease and it shocked them. They were profoundly concerned that the technology would be stolen by the Soviets...with good reason....they soviets had an extensive spy network in Canada at the time. The tech didn't die and many of the engineers who designed and worked on it ended up at most of the US major aviation companies, including the skunkworks.
The Americans in the 1960s had a Aircraft that couldn't be touched by any Russian Aircraft or Missiles. It was called the Blackbird AKA the SR-71 Blackbird first flight 22 December 1964. It became the reason the Russians developed the Mig 25 Foxbat.
Don I've always heard the Mig-25 was developed to counter the proposed XB-70.
@@terryboyer1342 while the XB-70 Was capable of Mach 3.08 it was limited to Mach 2.5 because of problems with fabrication of the panels and failure of panels. Yes it was originally put into production because of the B-58 and B-70 it was the SR-71 that kept it in production and was part in the Production of the Mig 31. I have a suspicion that it is also part reason for the Mig 41, Russia I mean Putin wants a Aircraft that we can't catch or shoot down.
@@SledgeHammer43
You're moving goalpost. Just admit you were wrong.
@@Tamburello_1994 according to the Mig pilot that defected to the United States of America The mig 25 was developed to counter the SR-71.
The soviets in fact were working on making fast high altitude interceptors for a while but faced a number of problems. Whether the SR-71 stimulated their interest is unclear, but they already were faced with other high speed bomber threats like the B-58. What they did in fact, was to develop aircraft like the 25 for point defense against high altitude high speed threats but also layered with SAM's. To this day, the Soviets...oh excuse me cough cough...the Russians still rely on Sam's as the backbone of their air defense with Mig 25's and 31's. Remember, unlike the U2's that overflew the Soviet Union, the SR-71's flew paths close to but not over any Soviet territory. Their attempt at intercepting SR-71's continued and as far as I know, only one Soviet pilot came close enough that if he fired may have brought down a 71... but that is debatable as it would have been at the extreme range of the missile and who knows if it could have locked on the 71... I have my doubts it could have.